Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses; I think I wrecked my fresh install
Am Dienstag, 19. Januar 2021, 04:21:35 EET schrieb Walter Dnes: > Maybe I should've kept quiet. The unicode fanbois probably saw this > thread and decided to get heavy-handed. On my latest pretend update, > I'm getting 8 (eight) rebuilds with "(unicode*)" being the reason. That would've been me. And yes... where the impact is low (*) we'll enable it unconditionally now. Python relies on unicode being present, the default locale in stages is C.UTF-8, ... too many central parts of the system just assume it's there. You'll be assimilated, resistance is futile. (*) In any case, if large libraries like ICU are needed for unicode support, we'll keep a useflag, but in that case the flag is called e.g. icu. -- Andreas K. Hüttel dilfri...@gentoo.org Gentoo Linux developer (council, qa, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses; I think I wrecked my fresh install
Maybe I should've kept quiet. The unicode fanbois probably saw this thread and decided to get heavy-handed. On my latest pretend update, I'm getting 8 (eight) rebuilds with "(unicode*)" being the reason. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses; I think I wrecked my fresh install
Am Mittwoch, 30. Dezember 2020, 20:01:32 EET schrieb antlists: > On 30/12/2020 17:30, Andreas K. Huettel wrote: > > That's true, though registrars are filtering for it now. Also, I just > > checked, e.g. firefox always builds with unicode support (it would have > > trouble with a lot of websites otherwise). > > > > (: ˙˙˙ǝpoɔᴉun sǝop oslɐ ʇuǝᴉlɔ lᴉɐɯ ɹnoʎ uǝɥʇ ¿sᴉɥʇ pɐǝɹ noʎ uɐɔ 'ʍʇq > > Except something's wrong because eg "d" renders correctly upside down, > but "t" clearly has the wrong baseline, and looking at the serifs "l" > isn't upside down at all. True. There is no "upside down" character set, this just relies on accidental / partial / best effort matches. -- Andreas K. Hüttel dilfri...@gentoo.org Gentoo Linux developer (council, qa, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses; I think I wrecked my fresh install
On 30/12/2020 17:30, Andreas K. Huettel wrote: That's true, though registrars are filtering for it now. Also, I just checked, e.g. firefox always builds with unicode support (it would have trouble with a lot of websites otherwise). (: ˙˙˙ǝpoɔᴉun sǝop oslɐ ʇuǝᴉlɔ lᴉɐɯ ɹnoʎ uǝɥʇ ¿sᴉɥʇ pɐǝɹ noʎ uɐɔ 'ʍʇq Except something's wrong because eg "d" renders correctly upside down, but "t" clearly has the wrong baseline, and looking at the serifs "l" isn't upside down at all. Cheers, Wol
Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses; I think I wrecked my fresh install
On 30/12/2020 16:35, Andreas K. Huettel wrote: I don't know if this has improved over the years, but my initial experience with unicode was rather negative. The fact that text files were twice as large wasn't a major problem in itself. The real showstopper was that importing text files into spreadsheets and text-editors and word processors failed miseraby. I looked at a unicode text file with a binary viewer. It turns out that a simple text string like "1234" was actually... "1" binary-zero "2" binary-zero "3" binary-zero "4" binary zero, etc. That's (as someone has already pointed out) UTF-16, which is the default for some Windows tools (but understood in Linux too). (Even UTF-32 exists where all characters are 4 byte wide, but I've never seen it in the wild.) UTF-8 is normally used on Linux (and ASCII chars look exactly the same there); even for "long characters" outside the ASCII range spreadsheets and word processors should not be a problem anymore. Following up on my previous answer, you need to separate in your mind UTF the character set, and UTF-x the representation. When UTF was introduced MS - in accordance with the thoughts of the time - thought the future was a 16-bit char, which can store 32 thousand characters. (Note that, BY DEFINITION, the high bit of a UTF character *must* be zero. Just like standard ASCII.) So MS and Windows uses UTF-16 as its encoding. Unix LATER went down the route of UTF-8 which - I think - can only encode 16 thousand characters in two bytes, but because most (western) text does encode successfully in one byte is actually a major saving in network operations such as email, web etc which is where Unix has traditionally been very strong. But UTF-16 works very well for MS, because they are primarily desktop, and UTF-16 means that there are very few multi-char characters. That reduces pressure on CPU, which is a desktop-limited resource. And lastly, very importantly, given that AT PRESENT all characters can be encoded in 31 bits, UTF-32 the representation is equivalent to UTF the character set. But should we need more than 2 billion characters, there is nothing stopping us rolling out characters encoded in two 32-bit chars, and UTF-64. Cheers, Wol
Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses; I think I wrecked my fresh install
> On top of that Cyrillic letters like "m", "i", "c", and "o" are > considered different from their English equivalants. Security experts > showed proof-of-cocept attacks where clicking on "microsoft.com" can > take you to a hostile domain (queue the jokes). That's true, though registrars are filtering for it now. Also, I just checked, e.g. firefox always builds with unicode support (it would have trouble with a lot of websites otherwise). (: ˙˙˙ǝpoɔᴉun sǝop oslɐ ʇuǝᴉlɔ lᴉɐɯ ɹnoʎ uǝɥʇ ¿sᴉɥʇ pɐǝɹ noʎ uɐɔ 'ʍʇq > I don't speak or read > or write any languages which have thousands of unique characters. > Seeing Chinese spam "as it was intended to be seen", is not a priority > for me. Not even Klingon?! -- Andreas K. Hüttel dilfri...@gentoo.org Gentoo Linux developer (council, qa, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses; I think I wrecked my fresh install
> I don't know if this has improved over the years, but my initial > experience with unicode was rather negative. The fact that text > files were twice as large wasn't a major problem in itself. The > real showstopper was that importing text files into spreadsheets > and text-editors and word processors failed miseraby. > > I looked at a unicode text file with a binary viewer. It turns out > that a simple text string like "1234" was actually... > "1" binary-zero "2" binary-zero "3" binary-zero "4" binary zero, etc. That's (as someone has already pointed out) UTF-16, which is the default for some Windows tools (but understood in Linux too). (Even UTF-32 exists where all characters are 4 byte wide, but I've never seen it in the wild.) UTF-8 is normally used on Linux (and ASCII chars look exactly the same there); even for "long characters" outside the ASCII range spreadsheets and word processors should not be a problem anymore. -- Andreas K. Hüttel dilfri...@gentoo.org Gentoo Linux developer (council, qa, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses; I think I wrecked my fresh install
On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 05:11:36PM +0200, Andreas K. Huettel wrote > Hi Walter, > > > "-pch -roaming -sendmail -spell -tcpd -udev -udisks -unicode -upower > > -xinerama" > > mostly out of curiosity, why do you want to disable unicode support > here? > > This feels odd to me since utf8 has effectively become the standard > encoding over the past years. I don't know if this has improved over the years, but my initial experience with unicode was rather negative. The fact that text files were twice as large wasn't a major problem in itself. The real showstopper was that importing text files into spreadsheets and text-editors and word processors failed miseraby. I looked at a unicode text file with a binary viewer. It turns out that a simple text string like "1234" was actually... "1" binary-zero "2" binary-zero "3" binary-zero "4" binary zero, etc. This padding explains why the file was twice as large, and also why "a simple textfile import" failed miserably. On top of that Cyrillic letters like "m", "i", "c", and "o" are considered different from their English equivalants. Security experts showed proof-of-cocept attacks where clicking on "microsoft.com" can take you to a hostile domain (queue the jokes). I don't speak or read or write any languages which have thousands of unique characters. Seeing Chinese spam "as it was intended to be seen", is not a priority for me. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses; I think I wrecked my fresh install
Hi Walter, > "-pch -roaming -sendmail -spell -tcpd -udev -udisks -unicode -upower > -xinerama" mostly out of curiosity, why do you want to disable unicode support here? This feels odd to me since utf8 has effectively become the standard encoding over the past years. Cheers, Andreas -- Andreas K. Hüttel dilfri...@gentoo.org Gentoo Linux developer (council, qa, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)
Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses; I think I wrecked my fresh install
On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:52:21PM +0100, tastytea wrote > > Bash depends on readline. If readline was built with USE="unicode" it > depends on ncurses[unicode]. Try `chroot /mnt/gentoo /bin/busybox sh`. > Busybox doesn't depend on readline so that should work. However, > portage uses bash for ebuilds if I'm not mistaken. If you have a > computer with a compatible CPU and unicode disabled you could quickpkg > bash there and try to install it on the new computer. Or maybe copying > /bin/bash over is enough. > > unicode is one of the useflags that are a real pain to disable after > install. :-( I did another install. At the very beginning, after selecting profile I emerged gentoolkit, and used it to track down additional dependencies. I put "-unicode" in USE in make.conf and eventually ended up running... emerge -1 readline emerge -1 nano procps util-linux emerge -1 ncurses Note: the order is extremely important. This was just before the point where the manual said to run... emerge --ask --verbose --update --deep --newuse @world ...which emerged 24 items, and would likely have led to more dependencies. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses; I think I wrecked my fresh install
On 2020-12-28 16:36-0500 "Walter Dnes" wrote:
> The previous couple of attempts, the install on my XPS 8940 died on
> rebuilding ncurses when I copied over my full USE string from my
> current desktop and updated world. This time around, I did it in
> pieces. I added some variables, and emerged update,
> rinse-lather-repeat.. This time the problem happened when I added...
>
> "-pch -roaming -sendmail -spell -tcpd -udev -udisks -unicode -upower
> -xinerama"
>
> to the USE string. The ncurses build died, followed immediately by
> bash.
>
> […]
>
> livecd /mnt/gentoo # chroot /mnt/gentoo /bin/bash
> /bin/bash: error while loading shared libraries: libtinfow.so.6:
> cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
Both the tinfo and the unicode use-flags are necessary if you need
libtinfow.so. From the ebuild:
if multilib_is_native_abi ; then
gen_usr_ldscript -a \
"${NCURSES_TARGETS[@]}" \
$(use tinfo && usex unicode 'tinfow' '') \
$(usev tinfo)
fi
Bash depends on readline. If readline was built with USE="unicode" it
depends on ncurses[unicode]. Try `chroot /mnt/gentoo /bin/busybox sh`.
Busybox doesn't depend on readline so that should work. However,
portage uses bash for ebuilds if I'm not mistaken. If you have a
computer with a compatible CPU and unicode disabled you could quickpkg
bash there and try to install it on the new computer. Or maybe copying
/bin/bash over is enough.
unicode is one of the useflags that are a real pain to disable after
install. :-(
Kind regards, tastytea
--
Get my PGP key with `gpg --locate-keys tasty...@tastytea.de` or at
.
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Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses; I think I wrecked my fresh install
Walter Dnes wrote: > The previous couple of attempts, the install on my XPS 8940 died on > rebuilding ncurses when I copied over my full USE string from my current > desktop and updated world. This time around, I did it in pieces. I > added some variables, and emerged update, rinse-lather-repeat.. This > time the problem happened when I added... > > "-pch -roaming -sendmail -spell -tcpd -udev -udisks -unicode -upower > -xinerama" > > to the USE string. The ncurses build died, followed immediately by > bash. > > Grub doesn't seem to work properly, i.e networking and other bootup > stuff did not take effect. I booted from the install USB, and set up > ssh. When I reach the chroot part, I get... > > livecd /mnt/gentoo # mount --types proc /proc /mnt/gentoo/proc > livecd /mnt/gentoo # mount --rbind /sys /mnt/gentoo/sys > livecd /mnt/gentoo # mount --make-rslave /mnt/gentoo/sys > livecd /mnt/gentoo # mount --rbind /dev /mnt/gentoo/dev > livecd /mnt/gentoo # mount --make-rslave /mnt/gentoo/dev > livecd /mnt/gentoo # chroot /mnt/gentoo /bin/bash > /bin/bash: error while loading shared libraries: libtinfow.so.6: cannot open > shared object file: No such file or directory > > Here's my USE string, which works fine on two other machines... > > USE="X apng ffmpeg introspection jpeg opengl openmp png szip truetype x264 > x265 xorg threads vala -acl -arp -arping -berkdb -bindist -bles -caps > -chatzilla -cracklib -crypt -elogind -filecaps -gallium -gdbm -gmp-autoupdate > -graphite -gstreamer -iconv -ipc -iptables -ipv6 -jemalloc3 -libav -libglvnd > -llvm -manpager -nls -pam -pch -roaming -sendmail -spell -tcpd -udev -udisks > -unicode -upower -xinerama" > > Any ideas? I have 2 other computers where it works just fine. On the > new machine it dies. A re-install is one thing. I just want to make > sure it doesn't die again on me. On my other machines I tried... > > equery b libtinfow.so.6 > > ...and also... > > find / -name libtinfow* > > Zip/zilch/nada. This appears to be something unique on the new > install. Is this a clue? > This is what I get here: root@fireball / # equery b libtinfow.so.6 * Searching for libtinfow.so.6 ... sys-libs/ncurses-6.2-r1 (/lib64/libtinfow.so.6 -> libtinfow.so.6.2) sys-libs/ncurses-6.2-r1 (/usr/lib/libtinfow.so.6 -> libtinfow.so.6.2) root@fireball / # emerge -p sys-libs/ncurses [ebuild R ] sys-libs/ncurses-6.2-r1:0/6::gentoo USE="gpm (split-usr) threads (tinfo) unicode -ada -cxx -debug -doc -minimal -profile -static-libs -test -trace" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" Does that info help any? Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses; I think I wrecked my fresh install
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 at 22:37, Walter Dnes wrote: >On my other machines I tried... > > equery b libtinfow.so.6 I think you need to use full paths with equery b. I combined it with whereis to confirm that /usr/lib/libtinfow.so.6 belongs to ncurses, so I guess what you need to figure out is why your ncurses build failed. You don't mention anything about it, so post any info you have. Regards, Arve
