OpenOffice auto raise mis-feature

2002-04-24 Thread Paul Iadonisi

  Anybody else notice that OpenOffice (I'm running 6.41d) automatically raises
itself when it gets focus?  I have point-to-focus instead of click-to-focus
under Gnome/Sawfish.  Nothing else does this except that in older versions of
galeon, some web sites would induce this behavior from the galeon window.
  I thought there was some way to tell sawfish to ignore an application's
request for raising itself, but I can't seem to find it.  Anybody know where
this is, if it exists?
  It's extremely annoying.
-- 
-Paul Iadonisi
 Senior System Administrator
 Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist
 Ever see a penguin fly?  --  Try Linux.
 GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets

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Re: Documentation (was Re: OpenOffice)

2002-04-09 Thread Mark Komarinski

On Tue, 2002-04-09 at 16:46, Derek D. Martin wrote:
> 
> > Derek's issue here is that he hates writing documentation.  No
> > amount of technology is going to change that.  :-)
> 
> Actually I don't really mind writing documentation, though I certainly
> don't love it.  The real problem is that I have no interest in
> learning some semi-arcane formatting language to do it.  That's what
> computers are for: to take the tedium out of tasks.  What I want is an
> editor that lets me just write what I have to say and takes care of
> inserting all the obscure formatting tags for me.  Or, best put, I
> want Lyx to have better DocBook support and a less visually abrasive
> user interface.  I really don't like looking at Xforms applications
> (or Tk, or Motif, or Athena for that matter).  

Again, documentation is really low on most people's scales.  In
addition, many tech writers are not as coding-qualified as...say...
their counterparts in engineering or QA, who have the ability, time, and
need to write code.  Tech people get stuck with Word or FrameMaker.
One tech writer I worked with 18 months ago was still using a DOS-based
app because it was the best tool he'd found for creating docs.  Wish
I knew the name of it

> Paul L. will no doubt pipe up here with a "function over form" comment,
> to which I generally would agree...  But I'll also add that it doesn't
> always matter how functional a thing is if you can't stand to look at 
> it.  :)

For me, I get around it by formatting the DocBook tags, so it almost
looks and flows like C (instead of Perl).  If you take a look at the
source to the LAG, I've broken out many sections into their own files,
things are indented based on how many layers of tags I have, etc.  It's
become somewhat natural for me now and I'm used to it.

Depending on the editor you use (see the LAG for a small overview) you
can have tags highlighted so they stand out, some can validate tags 
on-the-fly, and psgml will present you with a list of valid tags for 
your location and can close tags for you automagically.

BTW, LAG = http://www.tldp.org/LDP/LDP-Author-Guide/
I need to do some housekeeping with the doc, but the gist of everything
is still there, and the source for it is available through anoncvs.

One other thing, and it gets to be a sore point with the LDP at times.
I'd avoid using the linuxdoc DTD if you run across it.  Many seem
to think that it's a much easier to use than DocBook (it is), BUT
the tools for it are nowhere near as advanced as those for DB.  LyX
does output Linuxdoc, so you're free to try it.

-Mark


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Re: Documentation (was Re: OpenOffice)

2002-04-09 Thread plussier


In a message dated: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 16:46:11 EDT
"Derek D. Martin" said:


>Paul L. will no doubt pipe up here with a "function over form" comment,
>to which I generally would agree...  But I'll also add that it doesn't
>always matter how functional a thing is if you can't stand to look at 
>it.  :)

But when you're writing docs, or doing anything for that matter, how 
often are you sitting there marveling at the beauty/ugliness of the 
app you're actually in.  Anything involving content like text or 
images, you spend most of your time focused on the actual content, 
not the borders or the color of the widget set.  After a while, it 
just becomes transparent wallpaper.

Your real problem is that you care to much about things that just 
don't matter ;)
-- 

Seeya,
Paul



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Documentation (was Re: OpenOffice)

2002-04-09 Thread Derek D. Martin

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At some point hitherto, Benjamin Scott hath spake thusly:
> > I found DocBook to be really easy.  All I needed was ...
> 
> You people are making a classic mistake, in not realizing what the
> user (Derek, in this case) ) really means.  Derek's a bright fellow;
> he understands things much more arcane than DocBook, and I'm sure
> DocBook is will within his capabilities to understand, if he wanted
> to.

While this is true (and I'm aware you're being somewhat facetious),
the next part is just slightly off the mark...

> Derek's issue here is that he hates writing documentation.  No
> amount of technology is going to change that.  :-)

Actually I don't really mind writing documentation, though I certainly
don't love it.  The real problem is that I have no interest in
learning some semi-arcane formatting language to do it.  That's what
computers are for: to take the tedium out of tasks.  What I want is an
editor that lets me just write what I have to say and takes care of
inserting all the obscure formatting tags for me.  Or, best put, I
want Lyx to have better DocBook support and a less visually abrasive
user interface.  I really don't like looking at Xforms applications
(or Tk, or Motif, or Athena for that matter).  

Paul L. will no doubt pipe up here with a "function over form" comment,
to which I generally would agree...  But I'll also add that it doesn't
always matter how functional a thing is if you can't stand to look at 
it.  :)


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Re: OpenOffice

2002-04-09 Thread Mark Komarinski

On Tue, 2002-04-09 at 15:46, Benjamin Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, at 2:55pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>> You're not missing much!  It's a nice idea (if you live in
> >>> TheoryLand :) but it's just way too complicated for lazy people
> >>> to bother with!
> >>
> >>  Hey!  Them's fighting words!  The real problem is that ...
> > 
> > I found DocBook to be really easy.  All I needed was ...
> 
>   You people are making a classic mistake, in not realizing what the user
> (Derek, in this case) ) really means.  Derek's a bright fellow; he
> understands things much more arcane than DocBook, and I'm sure DocBook is
> will within his capabilities to understand, if he wanted to.
> 
>   Derek's issue here is that he hates writing documentation.  No amount of
> technology is going to change that.  :-)

That's why there's a lot of tech writers out there.  Most of the ones
I know are bald(ing), probably from frustration at engineers that
hate documenting things ;)

>   This is an instance of a common problem today: People often overlook the
> fact that the ability to work with complex systems and the ability to
> document complex systems are two different things.  :-)

In just about every place I've seen (DB included) documentation is a
very low priority.  In OSS-land, it's about the same priority as
the UI.

-Mark


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Re: OpenOffice

2002-04-09 Thread Benjamin Scott

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, at 2:55pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> You're not missing much!  It's a nice idea (if you live in
>>> TheoryLand :) but it's just way too complicated for lazy people
>>> to bother with!
>>
>>  Hey!  Them's fighting words!  The real problem is that ...
> 
> I found DocBook to be really easy.  All I needed was ...

  You people are making a classic mistake, in not realizing what the user
(Derek, in this case) ) really means.  Derek's a bright fellow; he
understands things much more arcane than DocBook, and I'm sure DocBook is
will within his capabilities to understand, if he wanted to.

  Derek's issue here is that he hates writing documentation.  No amount of
technology is going to change that.  :-)

  This is an instance of a common problem today: People often overlook the
fact that the ability to work with complex systems and the ability to
document complex systems are two different things.  :-)

-- 
Ben Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not |
| necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or  |
| organization.  All information is provided without warranty of any kind.  |




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Re: OpenOffice

2002-04-09 Thread ccb


> > You're not missing much!  It's a nice idea (if you live in
> > TheoryLand :) but it's just way too complicated for lazy people to
> > bother with!

>  Hey!  Them's fighting words!  The real problem is that it's way too
> poorly documented, and is therefore better suited to people who have
> the time to learn it and play with it.  Usually people writing very
> large documents.


I found DocBook to be really easy.  All I needed was

  a) motivation to get a large document out of HTML into something else
  b) the hypertext version of the book
  c) emacs psgml-mode

It's not for writing letters to grandma, but for 60+ page things
it's a godsend.


ccb

--
Charles C. Bennett, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: OpenOffice

2002-04-09 Thread Mark Komarinski

On Tue, 2002-04-09 at 14:15, Derek D. Martin wrote:
> > There are a few newer GUI apps for editing DB, but no real WYSIWYG
> > apps, as...well...DB was never meant to be WYSIWYG.
> 
> Like?

Morphon XML Editor (www.morphon.com)
XMLmind XML Editor (http://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/)

Neither falls under any OSS-style license, but Morphon has a 30 day
license, and XMLmind will have a no-cost version for personal
use.  XMLmind has a special place in my CPU since they're using
the LDP Author Guide as a sample document on their web site.

My name in lights.  Showing off a commercial app.  Not that I'm
getting compensated or even knew they were doing it.

-Mark


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Re: OpenOffice

2002-04-09 Thread Derek D. Martin

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At some point hitherto, Mark Komarinski hath spake thusly:
> DocBook is great because it separates out the authoring from the
> presentation.

Oh, I agree with the benefits of using it, I just find actually using
it painful.  

> There are a few newer GUI apps for editing DB, but no real WYSIWYG
> apps, as...well...DB was never meant to be WYSIWYG.

Like?

> > I believe Lyx had rudimentary DocBook support last I looked, but not
> > especially usable...  Has this changed?
> 
> Yes and no.  LyX outputs DocBook, but since DB likes to be maintained
> in DB format.

Well since I tend to be the only one who bothers with my documents,
this really isn't a problem for me.  :)

Lyx now appears to have support (in CVS at least) for Gtk and QT, as
well as the ugly xforms library.  I'm interested to see how that will
work out.  Downloading now.  :)

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Re: OpenOffice

2002-04-09 Thread Mark Komarinski

On Tue, 2002-04-09 at 13:08, Derek D. Martin wrote:
> My experience with DocBook is that the only people who *want* to use
> it are people who enjoy writing documentation, and they're all crazy
> anyway...  ;-)  Last I checked (not very recent, but I believe still
> accurate -- correct me please if I'm mistaken), there were no WYSIWYG
> tools (or anything similar) that adequately generated DocBook format,
> and the multitudinous tags are (IMO) excessively long and tedious to
> deal with.

The tags take some getting used to.  The ORA book is a great reference
on how the tags work, and there is a simplified DocBook DTD that has
only the most-often-used tags, while still being compatible with the
main DocBook DTD.


DocBook is great because it separates out the authoring from the
presentation.  The ORA book itself was written in DB, so the authors
merely had to write the content, then let the publisher define how the
end product would look.  My first few books I spent too much time
fiddling with Word and getting pictures to line up, where pages
ended, etc.  Since my last few works were browser-based CBTs, I could
just write in DB, spit out HTML and send that.  The production company
then just wrote around that and had a completed product.  Questions of
where pictures, video, and audio go were already answered in the HTML.


For smaller projects, DocBook has the advantage of being XML or SGML,
allowing you to do things like write up boilerplate documentation
and have a separate app do a fill-in-the-blank using regular XML/SGML
libs.

There are a few newer GUI apps for editing DB, but no real WYSIWYG
apps, as...well...DB was never meant to be WYSIWYG.

> I believe Lyx had rudimentary DocBook support last I looked, but not
> especially usable...  Has this changed?

Yes and no.  LyX outputs DocBook, but since DB likes to be maintained
in DB format.  If you get diffs from the DB, it is hard to import
those changes into LyX.  I guess it's similar to using Word to maintain
an HTML page.  You can do it, but it's not always worth the effort.

-Mark


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Re: OpenOffice

2002-04-09 Thread Karl J. Runge

On 09 Apr 2002 09:37:52, Mark Komarinski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> OO doesn't want to take over the desktop like 5.2 did.  That's the
> biggest thing.  On the down side, there is some functionality missing,
> most notably the database access and much of the clipart.  I don't
> need either, so it doesn't bother me.

(sorry I deleted the later posts) I believe Mark is referring to that
in OpenOffice and Staroffice 6.0 the documents appear as separate
toplevel X windows (e.g a new X window for each doc, presentation,
spreadsheet, ...) rather than having them all inside one container
window.

For my own work I definitely prefer having separate windows, however I
wonder if the all-in-one container might be better for some cases.  

I am thinking if, say, I installed a OO solution for a school or
non-charitable association as a Windows/Office replacement primarily
for non-technical folks.  Maybe even first time computer users.  The
all-in-one container probably has a less steep learning curve.  It even
had its own web browser (not great, but it worked), and email client.
With those removed now, one would have to deal training the users wrt
the WM interaction, netscape/mozilla, mail client, and perhaps some
other issues we don't even think about since are no longer newbies...



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Re: OpenOffice

2002-04-09 Thread Derek D. Martin

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At some point hitherto, Mark Komarinski hath spake thusly:
> Depending on how large the document is, you may want to just use
> DocBook and generate PDF.  Then again, you can generate RTF (the
> base of DOC) from DocBook as well.

My experience with DocBook is that the only people who *want* to use
it are people who enjoy writing documentation, and they're all crazy
anyway...  ;-)  Last I checked (not very recent, but I believe still
accurate -- correct me please if I'm mistaken), there were no WYSIWYG
tools (or anything similar) that adequately generated DocBook format,
and the multitudinous tags are (IMO) excessively long and tedious to
deal with.

I believe Lyx had rudimentary DocBook support last I looked, but not
especially usable...  Has this changed?


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Re: OpenOffice

2002-04-09 Thread Jerry Feldman

Nor does it on Linux. 
On 9 Apr 2002 at 11:16, David Andrew - Sun MDE wrote:

> Hi folks,
> 
> Just to correct a misunderstanding - Staroffice 5.2 does not take over 
> your desktop, at least not on Solaris or Windows.  I have been using it 
> for well over a year as a separate window.  You may need to change the 
> view - I forget exactly how to do it just now, but it was very easy at 
> the time.
>
--
Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Associate Director
Boston Linux and Unix user group
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Re: OpenOffice

2002-04-09 Thread David Andrew - Sun MDE

Hi folks,

Just to correct a misunderstanding - Staroffice 5.2 does not take over 
your desktop, at least not on Solaris or Windows.  I have been using it 
for well over a year as a separate window.  You may need to change the 
view - I forget exactly how to do it just now, but it was very easy at 
the time.

Cheers,

David
-
>Subject: Re: OpenOffice
>From: "Kenneth E. Lussier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: Mark Komarinski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Date: 09 Apr 2002 09:45:45 -0400
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>X-List-Info: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Majordomo 1.92
>X-Sender: "Kenneth E. Lussier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>On Tue, 2002-04-09 at 09:37, Mark Komarinski wrote:
>> OO is much better than 5.2.
>> 
>> OO doesn't want to take over the desktop like 5.2 did.  That's the
>> biggest thing.  On the down side, there is some functionality 
missing,
>> most notably the database access and much of the clipart.  I don't
>> need either, so it doesn't bother me.
>
>Not taking over the desktop is a big thing for me. My main system is a
>laptop, so my resources are limited, and the SO Desktop is a major
>resource-hog. I don't need the DB stuff or the clipart either. My usage
>is mostly just as a general purpose office suite: word processing,
>spreadsheets, presentations, etc. Also, generally speaking, I need to
>share these documents with M$ Office users, so the ability to save in 
an
>M$ format is the key point.
>
>> Depending on how large the document is, you may want to just use
>> DocBook and generate PDF.  Then again, you can generate RTF (the
>> base of DOC) from DocBook as well.
>
>When I do large documents that are going to change frequently, such as
>documenting my network procedures, etc., I use Lyx. I don't have to
>share those docs with anyone, and they all get printed out and put into
>a binder in case anyone needs them. I don't know  much about DocBook.
>
>Thanks,
>Kenny
>-- 
>---
-
>"Tact is just *not* saying true stuff" -- Cordelia Chase
>
>Kenneth E. Lussier
>Sr. Systems Administrator
>Zuken, USA
>PGP KeyID CB254DD0 
>http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCB254DD0
>
>
>
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Re: Re: OpenOffice

2002-04-09 Thread Mark Komarinski

On Tue, 2002-04-09 at 10:43, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> 
> On 09 Apr 2002 09:45:45 -0400 "Kenneth E. Lussier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I don't know  much about DocBook.
> 
> You're not missing much!  It's a nice idea
> (if you live in TheoryLand :) but it's just way too complicated for lazy people to 
>bother with!

Hey!  Them's fighting words!  The real problem is that it's way too
poorly documented, and is therefore better suited to people who have the
time to learn it and play with it.  Usually people writing very large
documents.

> Stick with LyX, you can create PS, PDF, and HTML from that source just fine :)

Since LyX is using TeX as its base, it should be just fine.  You can
probably get RTF out of it too.

-Mark


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Re: Re: OpenOffice

2002-04-09 Thread plussier



On 09 Apr 2002 09:45:45 -0400 "Kenneth E. Lussier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I don't know  much about DocBook.

You're not missing much!  It's a nice idea
(if you live in TheoryLand :) but it's just way too complicated for lazy people to 
bother with!

Stick with LyX, you can create PS, PDF, and HTML from that source just fine :)

Seeya,
Paul

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Re: OpenOffice

2002-04-09 Thread Mark Komarinski

OO is much better than 5.2.

OO doesn't want to take over the desktop like 5.2 did.  That's the
biggest thing.  On the down side, there is some functionality missing,
most notably the database access and much of the clipart.  I don't
need either, so it doesn't bother me.

Even used it to whip up some business cards using the built-in
business card maker.  Need to figure out how to put an image on it
though

Depending on how large the document is, you may want to just use
DocBook and generate PDF.  Then again, you can generate RTF (the
base of DOC) from DocBook as well.

-Mark

On Tue, 2002-04-09 at 09:29, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Someone metioned getting a copy of OpenOffice the other day, so I was
> curious. I currently use AbiWord and GnuMeric for most of my smaller
> tasks, and when I have something larger, like a presentation, or a large
> document that needs to go out to M$ Office users, I use StarOffice 5.2. 
> 
> If there are people out there running OpenOffice, I would be interested
> to hear your impressions of it. Is it worth swithcing from SO5.2 to
> OpenOffice?
> 
> TIA,
> Kenny
> -- 
> 
> "Tact is just *not* saying true stuff" -- Cordelia Chase
> 
> Kenneth E. Lussier
> Sr. Systems Administrator
> Zuken, USA
> PGP KeyID CB254DD0 
> http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCB254DD0
> 
> 
> 
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OpenOffice

2002-04-09 Thread Kenneth E. Lussier

Hi All,

Someone metioned getting a copy of OpenOffice the other day, so I was
curious. I currently use AbiWord and GnuMeric for most of my smaller
tasks, and when I have something larger, like a presentation, or a large
document that needs to go out to M$ Office users, I use StarOffice 5.2. 

If there are people out there running OpenOffice, I would be interested
to hear your impressions of it. Is it worth swithcing from SO5.2 to
OpenOffice?

TIA,
Kenny
-- 

"Tact is just *not* saying true stuff" -- Cordelia Chase

Kenneth E. Lussier
Sr. Systems Administrator
Zuken, USA
PGP KeyID CB254DD0 
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCB254DD0



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Re: OpenOffice?

2002-03-27 Thread plussier


In a message dated: 27 Mar 2002 16:58:45 EST
"Roger H. Goun" said:

>I'll do it. But now I'm going to be late for dinner. :-)

I'm all set, 'maddog' has volunteered to get me the CD, thanks for 
all the offers though, I really appreciate it!
-- 

Seeya,
Paul



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Re: OpenOffice?

2002-03-27 Thread Roger H. Goun

I'll do it. But now I'm going to be late for dinner. :-)

-- R.

On Wed, 2002-03-27 at 16:23, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Is there anyone who:
>   A. is coming to the meeting tonight
>   B. has a fast connection at home
>   C. Could download the lasted Intel/Linux version of OpenOffice
>   D. Can burn it to CD?
>   E. Give it to me at the meeting :)
> 
> On a 56K dial-up connection, the bandwidth of my car carrying a CD is much higher 
> than that of my poor 56K modem, even *with* all the latency :)
> 
> Thanks (I'll bring a blank CD to replace it with if you wish :)
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Seeya,
> Paul


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OpenOffice?

2002-03-27 Thread plussier


Hi,

Is there anyone who:
A. is coming to the meeting tonight
B. has a fast connection at home
C. Could download the lasted Intel/Linux version of OpenOffice
D. Can burn it to CD?
E. Give it to me at the meeting :)

On a 56K dial-up connection, the bandwidth of my car carrying a CD is much higher 
than that of my poor 56K modem, even *with* all the latency :)

Thanks (I'll bring a blank CD to replace it with if you wish :)


-- 

Seeya,
Paul



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Re: OpenOffice 6.0

2001-04-26 Thread Paul Lussier


In a message dated: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:44:51 EDT
Gregory Dake said:

>Greetings-
>
>You might have chosen to install it without the help... try going back and
>re-running the install script... their will be the option to "Modify
>installation."  From there you just navigate your way through the cubes,
>making sure that the help files are blue and not clear.  They are installed
>component by component as well... kinda like M$ Office, so you might not
>have installed the help for the component you're currently using.

Well, I tried this, but there are no components anywhere that mention 
installation/modification/de-installation of help files.

The version of I installed is OpenOffice6.0 build 25.


-- 

Seeya,
Paul

It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing,
   but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away.

 If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right!



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OpenOffice 6.0

2001-04-18 Thread Paul Lussier


Hey,

Anyone install OO6.0 yet?  Anyone notice that there is no help?  You 
can click on Help->Contents, but the window that pops up is 
completely empty.  There doesn't even seem to be any documentation on 
the website?!


-- 

Seeya,
Paul

It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing,
   but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away.

 If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right!



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