Re: [OT] Charging UPS batteries outside the UPS
On Monday 06 August 2007 22:10, Ben Scott wrote: Hi all, Off-topic but still techie question: Does anyone know anything about charging the batteries from a UPS using external equipment (i.e., not the charger built-in to the UPS)? The battery consists of eight smaller units, wired together. The wiring is easily disconnected. Each unit is labeled 12 V, 7.2 Ah/20HR. Anyone if I can just hook each unit up to a regular automotive battery charger (one at a time) and charge them that way? It is safe to recharge them with a conventional automotive battery charger as you suggest. Recharge them at a low rate. If anything goes wrong, they will just get hot or not take a charge. At a low charge rate, the battery cannot get hot enough to burn up or damage its surrounding. My auxiliary charger has a 6 amp and 2 amp setting. (You are welcome to use it - I will email it to you.) 2 amps at 13V is only 26W, which is not going to raise the temperature of a large surface area by much. V DC is. [4] Severe discharge typically also means the battery will not hold a load to spec, so it's an indication the battery is no good; no point in a UPS without a battery; loose battery connector indication; Actually, when lead-acid batteries lose capacity after many partial discharges, the recommendation is to have a deep discharge and complete recharge. That brings back some of the capacity. what if the customer is stupid and didn't connect the battery. Most batteries, particularly lead-acid batteries, self discharge whether connected or not. Keeping them in the refrigerator helps - if you can get the cooperation of the rest of the household. Jim Kuzdrall ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: [OT] Charging UPS batteries outside the UPS
Ben Scott writes: Now, I don't want to have to spend $350 on a replacement battery only to find out that it's the UPS itself that's shot. I'm thinking if I can find some way to charge up the battery to minimum levels, I can at least test the UPS to see if it works. It doesn't have to hold a load. $350 is a bit high.. I've bought replacement batteries from here many times without issues: http://www.powersupersite.com/MZIproducts.cfm?full=1ID=RBK12-f 175.00 + ~25 shipping for the RBC12 The battery consists of eight smaller units, wired together. The wiring is easily disconnected. Each unit is labeled 12 V, 7.2 Ah/20HR. Anyone if I can just hook each unit up to a regular automotive battery charger (one at a time) and charge them that way? I'd say probably so, but dont blame me if they explode. useful info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery -- Dave ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: [OT] Charging UPS batteries outside the UPS
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: First, confirm that these batteries are wired IN PARALLEL, NOT IN SERIES. (If they are in series, you're looking at a highly non-standard 96V implementation. No problem, though... just disconnect them all and charge them separately.) This ups takes 2 sets of 2-parallel 2-series providing 2 24V plugs with 4 batteries each. -- Dave ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Excessive processor usage
Ben Scott wrote: On 8/6/07, Sean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am beginning to think it is my drive as the problem, it seems to be writing a great deal when I see the problem. Time for backups! No, the time for backups is *before* you start having trouble ;-) Actually I keep backups already. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: [OT] Charging UPS batteries outside the UPS
On Monday 06 August 2007 22:10, Ben Scott wrote: Now, I don't want to have to spend $350 on a replacement battery only to find out that it's the UPS itself that's shot. For what it's worth, APC.com lists their replacement batteries for $280 for an SU3000RM3U. I've had bad luck with non-APC sources for replacement batteries, but your mileage may vary. Hopefully, you can get away with recharging the system as you're getting suggestions to do though... -N ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: [OT] Charging UPS batteries outside the UPS
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IIRC, APC UPSs (how's that for an acronym?) generally ship with the batteries DISCONNECTED. When you get it and first open the box, the instructions tell you how to hook them up. U.S. FAA DOT requests that batteries are disconnected. during shipment. It is a voluntary program, as far as I know, but all the UPSes I've seen in the last few years, no matter who made them, come disconnected. So, it isn't just APC. In one brand, they had a locking slide switch which made the connection rather than having to open the unit to connect the battery wire, like APC does. -- Dan Jenkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Rastech Inc., Bedford, NH, USA --- 1-603-206-9951 *** Technical Support Excellence for over a Quarter Century ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: [OT] Charging UPS batteries outside the UPS
Top Reply, bad netiquette etc, but I have a few of those sealed lead acid batteries, almost new and unused, $10 each if you want to collect them from Manchester. Chris On 8/7/07, Dan Jenkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IIRC, APC UPSs (how's that for an acronym?) generally ship with the batteries DISCONNECTED. When you get it and first open the box, the instructions tell you how to hook them up. U.S. FAA DOT requests that batteries are disconnected. during shipment. It is a voluntary program, as far as I know, but all the UPSes I've seen in the last few years, no matter who made them, come disconnected. So, it isn't just APC. In one brand, they had a locking slide switch which made the connection rather than having to open the unit to connect the battery wire, like APC does. -- Dan Jenkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Rastech Inc., Bedford, NH, USA --- 1-603-206-9951 *** Technical Support Excellence for over a Quarter Century ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/ -- IBA #15631 ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: [OT] Charging UPS batteries outside the UPS
This is an amalgamated reply. Thanks for all the responses, everyone, it's been informative and educational, as always. :) On 8/7/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Most UPSs use gel cell batteries ... These are gel cells. So-called sealed lead-acid. On 8/7/07, Jim Kuzdrall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My auxiliary charger ... (You are welcome to use it - I will email it to you.) Rather than emailing the charger, just hook it up to your computer, and use an SSH tunnel to transmit the charging current to me. ;-) On 8/7/07, Jim Kuzdrall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is safe to recharge them with a conventional automotive battery charger as you suggest. ... If anything goes wrong, they will just get hot or not take a charge. On 8/7/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gel cells require a different current/time charging profile than other types of batteries. ... a standard 12V battery charger ... CAN DESTROY THE BATTERIES! H. So much for an easy answer. :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gel_battery doesn't really give much of a clue, other than to say Charging with a constant voltage ... can cause a rapid initial current, which doesn't really help me much. Does that just mean it doesn't work as well, or that it is don't-cross-the-streams-bad? Still, maybe I can find a charger that has a gel switch on it somewhere... On the third hand, the batteries are useless anyway, so maybe I'll just hook 'em up to what I've got available and see what happens. Outside, away from anything combustible, and in a pan. :) On 8/7/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First, confirm that these batteries are wired IN PARALLEL, NOT IN SERIES. The battery in this unit consists of two packs of four units each. In each pack, two pairs of units are wired in series, and the pairs are then wired in parallel (within the pack). The wiring in the UPS connects the packs in series. So, the units are 12 V, the packs 24 V, and the whole battery is 48 V. Keep in mind this is a 2250 watt, 3000 VA UPS. The battery is bigger than what you would find in something at Circuit City... :) With regard to replacement batteries: I'm aware of pricing and OEM vs third-party and so on. The $350 was a rough number, partly hyperbole, and also reflected S/H (they are rather heavy). Even if I can find a replacement for $CHEAPER, that's still more than I want to spend on a potentially dead UPS. :-) On 8/7/07, Jim Kuzdrall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [4] Severe discharge typically also means the battery will not hold a load to spec ... Actually, when lead-acid batteries lose capacity after many partial discharges, the recommendation is to have a deep discharge and complete recharge. Like I said, I find APC's explanation rather suspect. Aside from technical concerns, they have a Conflict Of Interest (selling me new batteries). On 8/7/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, the APC UPSs come with some kind of supposedly super sophisticated warranty. I suspect you're thinking of the equipment protection stuff, where APC will pay to replace any equipment the UPS failed to protect from damage due to a power transient. The warranty on the UPSes themselves are fairly standard (some number of years). They do pay shipping both ways. Dead batteries are not covered, though. And I believe this unit is out-of-warranty. Either way, if I call support, they'll just tell me to replace the batteries first (not an unreasonable stance, given the situation). -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: [OT] Charging UPS batteries outside the UPS
On 8/7/07, Jim Kuzdrall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is safe to recharge them with a conventional automotive battery charger as you suggest. ... If anything goes wrong, they will just get hot or not take a charge. On 8/7/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gel cells require a different current/time charging profile than other types of batteries. ... a standard 12V battery charger ... CAN DESTROY THE BATTERIES! H. So much for an easy answer. :-) OK, then I'll offer a real EE, knowledgeable about battery charging answer. Tell me what the capacity is, and the model number, and I'll check the proper charging profile from the datasheet or give you a SWAG on proper procedure. (Had to build a charger for both SLA and Ni-Cad at my undergrad, and have looked at NiMH recently for battery backed apps at work.) Here's some general info: Depending on cell type, there's a maximum charging rate that doesn't damage the electrodes or do weird things to the electrolyte. This rate is generally something like C/10 or C/20, where C is the battery capacity. Again, depending on the battery type the divisor changes. A pretty good job of charging (which would suffice for you) can be done just by current-limiting the charging supply to stay under this number, and then charging for roughly the right amount of time (one of those light timers will do in a pinch for limiting the time.) Once the battery's been charged at the high rate for the right amount of time, most systems switch to either a trickle charge or occasional cycles of trickle charge. SLA batteries are some of the toughest batteries out there as far as charge/discharge rates. Fancy charging systems will even have 3 or 4 charging modes they cycle through on a charge, and then a different cycle for maintaining charge once the batteries are full. Now, as to the proper amount of time... you'd think that if you're charging at C/10, that 10 hours would be right, but they're not 100% efficient at returning stored energy; it will typically take around 30-50% longer than the above calculation suggests. Varies wildly with battery type. That's all fairly vague; with a battery datasheet or possibly a model # I might be able to give you excruciatingly proper procedure. --DTVZ ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
No August Monadlug Meeting
A reminder that there will be NO Monadlug meeting this month, our next meeting will be September 13. -- Charles Farinella [EMAIL PROTECTED] 14 East Ridge Dr., Peterborough, NH 03458 603.924.1977 ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Subject: [OT] Charging UPS batteries outside the UPS
Ben - I've almost never seen an APC Smart-UPS that was actually defective. I'd certainly take a chance on the batteries. There's an outfit on Ebay that sells a privately branded ZEUS SLA battery at a very reasonable price (batteryman20). I've ordered many times had very good luck with their batteries. They have a RBC12 set of batteries for $66.75 with $31.88 shipping. If your batteries are down to 2v they will never take enough of a charge to make the UPS trigger on (in my experience). Also one of the links in most APC supplies is a fuse. I'm not sure about the 3000 - but it's true of the 1000 and 1500va units. Make sure that it isn't open. Good luck! - Gary From: Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Greater NH Linux User Group gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 22:10:30 -0400 Subject: [OT] Charging UPS batteries outside the UPS I've got an APC Smart-UPS 3000 (P/N SU3000RM3U) which I picked up for free (someone was getting rid of it). ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: [OT] Charging UPS batteries outside the UPS
I ran scared from EE classes. My neighbor has a 1500VA APC UPS of similar vintage, perhaps from a similar scrapheap, marked as 'dead'. He 'jumpstarted' it with an automotive battery charger/conditioner, and it works fine a couple years later. If I were to guess, perhaps his unit only had one of the 4 cells you had, for 12V, so you might need to charge each of your 4 12V parts separately then reassemble them. A colleague and I once bought an APC unit very similar to yours off eBay, labeled 'works, no batteries'. We found the batteries were made by panasonic and after a bit of tracking found them to be motorcycle batteries. We ordered a complete set for ~$120 from an auto supply and wired them back up like the originals. As far as I know, that UPS is still running a small bank of storage servers and hasn't caused any fires. Total cost was ~$220, which was quite a deal at the time. -Bill - Bill McGonigle, Owner Work: 603.448.4440 BFC Computing, LLC Home: 603.448.1668 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 603.252.2606 http://www.bfccomputing.com/Page: 603.442.1833 Blog: http://blog.bfccomputing.com/ VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
