Re: Nokia N900
My experience with the n810 (I never installed any agps package) GPS was universally awful except in a few lucky circumstances when I randomly got a GPS signal. The n900 GPS is quite good and almost always acquires a signal quickly. Granted, it is not good when you are away from signals such as wifi or cell. Eric Tyson Sawyer wrote: On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 8:42 PM, David Rysdam da...@rysdam.org wrote: I was outside, I was still WiFi'd in to the house so it was using AGPS. Result: Invalid. [...] Conclusion: The N810 GPS hardware and/or software definitively sucks. Though I agree that the N810 is not as good a GPS is most others, once the AGPS package had bee installed my experience was much better than what you are reporting. You have not indicated if you had the AGPS package installed. Last I knew, it was not a standard package. If you didn't make a point to install it, its not there. Without it, it is my impression that you always get a cold start. Response to some other comments: It is well documented that GPS's typically assume that they are restarted near where they where last used. The documentation of every GPS I have ever bought says that if you turn it off and then transport it a long distance before turning it on again, it will take much longer to get a fix. The N810 without the AGPS package seems not able to do even this simple trick. Though I've never seen any problem with slow movement, I have seen (esp. on the N810) that highway speeds can hinder an initial fix. Cheers! Ty ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
On 05/16/2010 09:56 PM, Peter Dobratz wrote: This may be stating the obvious, but it tripped me up when I was trying out my Garmin Etrex. You have to be still in order to get a fix. All of my tests had the GPS sitting on the ground or on a bench. At the very most, I picked it up as in the last test, but that didn't move it more than a meter or so. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 8:42 PM, David Rysdam da...@rysdam.org wrote: I was outside, I was still WiFi'd in to the house so it was using AGPS. Result: Invalid. [...] Conclusion: The N810 GPS hardware and/or software definitively sucks. Though I agree that the N810 is not as good a GPS is most others, once the AGPS package had bee installed my experience was much better than what you are reporting. You have not indicated if you had the AGPS package installed. Last I knew, it was not a standard package. If you didn't make a point to install it, its not there. Without it, it is my impression that you always get a cold start. Response to some other comments: It is well documented that GPS's typically assume that they are restarted near where they where last used. The documentation of every GPS I have ever bought says that if you turn it off and then transport it a long distance before turning it on again, it will take much longer to get a fix. The N810 without the AGPS package seems not able to do even this simple trick. Though I've never seen any problem with slow movement, I have seen (esp. on the N810) that highway speeds can hinder an initial fix. Cheers! Ty -- Tyson D Sawyer A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. - Daniel Webster ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
On 05/17/2010 09:39 AM, Tyson Sawyer wrote: On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 8:42 PM, David Rysdam da...@rysdam.org wrote: I was outside, I was still WiFi'd in to the house so it was using AGPS. Result: Invalid. [...] Conclusion: The N810 GPS hardware and/or software definitively sucks. Though I agree that the N810 is not as good a GPS is most others, once the AGPS package had bee installed my experience was much better than what you are reporting. But only if you start up near a WiFi point, I assume. When I'm driving around, this is rarely the case. And even if it were the case, 4 minutes seems like kind of a long time to wait when my Garmin can do it in around 10-20 seconds. You have not indicated if you had the AGPS package installed. Last I knew, it was not a standard package. If you didn't make a point to install it, its not there. Without it, it is my impression that you always get a cold start. I'm pretty sure it's installed. I definitely had it installed at one point. When I read that it would improve the GPS performance, I jabbed the install button before I even got to the part about but you need to be connected to the internet. The only reason I'm not sure it's installed is I had to reinstall the OS at one point. However, the backups save your installed app list, so it probably went back on. And the data seem to back that up (heh): there's the vast difference in fix times between when the network was and wasn't available. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 11:04 PM, Benjamin Scott dragonh...@gmail.com wrote: Unrelated to the My GPS is faster than your GPS discussion, but relevant to the Linux friendliness question: It has an apparently standard USB mini B port on the back, which serves for both power input (to charge the battery) and PC attachment (for software/data updates). One of the first things I did was (of course) plug it into my Linux home PC (Debian 5.0.4, kernel 2.6.26-2). The GPS display showed the Garmin logo and a picture of itself plugged into a computer, but Linux was indifferent. Looking at the kernel log, it appeared the GPS wasn't playing nice. I either saw nothing at all, or just over-current change on port. I noticed that if I plugged it into the USB hub built-in to my Dell LCD, the hub would apparently reset, as the kernel would re-detect my mouse and flash card reader. Reading your entire message, it seems possible that Window's didn't work without a driver update and neither were able to work until it had been plugged in for a while and recharged. It may be that it draws too much power when the batteries are low? Removing the batteries so that it wasn't charging, just powering the electronics, might have made it work right off under Linux. Updating the firmware purportedly requires installing some proprietary software from Garmin. The instructions at this address _might_ work for your Garmin. However, they are specific to the Colorado: http://garmincolorado.wikispaces.com/Versions#Colorado Software Versions-Updates using gcd files There are links there for some other Garmin GPS's and a lot of information that is likely useful for more than just the Colorado. Cheers! Ty -- Tyson D Sawyer A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. - Daniel Webster ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:47 AM, David Rysdam da...@rysdam.org wrote: On 05/17/2010 09:39 AM, Tyson Sawyer wrote: On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 8:42 PM, David Rysdam da...@rysdam.org wrote: I was outside, I was still WiFi'd in to the house so it was using AGPS. Result: Invalid. [...] Conclusion: The N810 GPS hardware and/or software definitively sucks. Though I agree that the N810 is not as good a GPS is most others, once the AGPS package had bee installed my experience was much better than what you are reporting. But only if you start up near a WiFi point, I assume. When I'm driving around, this is rarely the case. And even if it were the case, 4 minutes seems like kind of a long time to wait when my Garmin can do it in around 10-20 seconds. In my case, we were sometimes out in the woods not near any WiFi signal and typically had much better performance than 4 minutes. The AGPS package at least knows how to remember where it was last and use that to help get it started. I think that the use of last known point is good for something on the order of 100 miles. You have not indicated if you had the AGPS package installed. Last I knew, it was not a standard package. If you didn't make a point to install it, its not there. Without it, it is my impression that you always get a cold start. I'm pretty sure it's installed. I definitely had it installed at one point. When I read that it would improve the GPS performance, I jabbed the install button before I even got to the part about but you need to be connected to the internet. The only reason I'm not sure it's installed is I had to reinstall the OS at one point. However, the backups save your installed app list, so it probably went back on. And the data seem to back that up (heh): there's the vast difference in fix times between when the network was and wasn't available. You will not get me to claim or defend that the N810 GPS is as good at getting a fix as other GPSs. It is not. However, my experience was clearly better than yours and once it has a fix, it does seem to be just as good. However, you might double check that AGPS is installed and configured. There may have been some relevant setup. Since the device belongs to my fiancee, I didn't do the install/setup, but I think I recall there being a setup/config step/page. Cheers! Ty -- Tyson D Sawyer A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. - Daniel Webster ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:48 AM, Tyson Sawyer ty...@j3.org wrote: It may be that it draws too much power when the batteries are low? Possible. I'll let the battery run down some time and see if that then hinders USB connectivity. Removing the batteries so that it wasn't charging ... The battery in this model are not (easily) removable. The instructions at this address _might_ work for your Garmin. However, they are specific to the Colorado: http://garmincolorado.wikispaces.com/Versions#Colorado Software Versions-Updates using gcd files I'm sure the Colorado software won't work with this Nuvi; they're completely different things -- different form-factors, years apart in release to market, and the release numbers are way different. :-) The idea of just copying a file is intriguing and would be great, but without a link to the Nuvi software I'm SOL. Still, you've given me Google fodder; thanks. :) -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
On 05/13/2010 08:19 AM, David Rysdam wrote: On 05/12/2010 06:13 PM, Joshua Judson Rosen wrote: Cold tests were performed when both Pocket PC and GPS receiver were powered off (if GPS receiver has a separate power source, the GPS receiver was unplugged) for a period of between 8 to 12 hours requiring a cold start. Warm tests Warm tests were performed when both Pocket PC and GPS receiver were powered off (if GPS receiver has a separate power source, the GPS receiver was unplugged) for a period of 30 minutes Hot tests Hot tests were performed when both Pocket PC and GPS receiver were powered off (if GPS receiver has a separate power source, the GPS receiver was unplugged) for a period of 15 minutes You missed the colder-than-cold test: - Factory is where the receiver has no knowledge whatsoever of Almanac data in turn to locate the satellites and retrieve Ephemeris data, and for a full Almanac to be downloaded can take approx 12.5 mins, hence most companies suggest a factory start of 15 minutes. - So we already know the N810 has to be worse than it should be, due to multiple reports even on this list of 15 minute TsTFF. Also, I apparently cold test my dedicated GPS 1-2 times per day. It's always read to be a GPS before I'm ready to be a driver. Perhaps that says more about how long it takes me to start driving than about how fast my GPS is. That said, I'll try to test it. I'll assume the N810 needs a factory start by this point and then start doing some cold timings. Assuming it doesn't take so long that I have to terminate the test. OK, so my tests are complete. I controlled the GPS with MaemoMapper, which shows how many satellites you've heard from (I guess) and what the signal strengths are. I'm basing average performance on these tests: http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/ttffcomparisons.php 1) Until Saturday, I hadn't had a fix for many months, so I was going to count that as a factory start. Factory start allows for around 12-15 minutes. I got a fix in under 4 minutes. Then I realized that although I was outside, I was still WiFi'd in to the house so it was using AGPS. Result: Invalid. 2) A little over an hour later, I tried from a WiFi-free location. 60-90 minutes is more than 30 minutes (warm test) but much less than 8-12 hours (cold test). According to the baseline, cold tests should take ~1 m, warm tests ~30s. N810? 5 minutes. 3) As soon as I had a fix for a few seconds, I disconnected and retried. This would be a hot test and should take under 10-20 seconds. N810? 5 minutes *again*. 4) Over 12 hours after that, I disabled WiFi at home and tried again. This should be a strict cold test and again should take 1 minute. N810? 13 minutes. Furthermore, I think it would have taken longer if I'd had more patience. It went from 0-5 satellites (I thought 4 or 5 was enough, but it didn't complete then), then wandered down to 1, then back up to 5. This was at the 12 minute mark. So I pointed it up at the sky (it had been resting on the ground) and suddenly all the signal strengths leapt up and I got a fix within a minute after that. Conclusion: The N810 GPS hardware and/or software definitively sucks. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
This may be stating the obvious, but it tripped me up when I was trying out my Garmin Etrex. You have to be still in order to get a fix. I had the Garmin attached to my bicycle and I was riding up and down my driveway while waiting to go off and map the neighborhood. No fix until I *stopped* for a minute or so. Peter On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 8:42 PM, David Rysdam da...@rysdam.org wrote: On 05/13/2010 08:19 AM, David Rysdam wrote: On 05/12/2010 06:13 PM, Joshua Judson Rosen wrote: Cold tests were performed when both Pocket PC and GPS receiver were powered off (if GPS receiver has a separate power source, the GPS receiver was unplugged) for a period of between 8 to 12 hours requiring a cold start. Warm tests Warm tests were performed when both Pocket PC and GPS receiver were powered off (if GPS receiver has a separate power source, the GPS receiver was unplugged) for a period of 30 minutes Hot tests Hot tests were performed when both Pocket PC and GPS receiver were powered off (if GPS receiver has a separate power source, the GPS receiver was unplugged) for a period of 15 minutes You missed the colder-than-cold test: - Factory is where the receiver has no knowledge whatsoever of Almanac data in turn to locate the satellites and retrieve Ephemeris data, and for a full Almanac to be downloaded can take approx 12.5 mins, hence most companies suggest a factory start of 15 minutes. - So we already know the N810 has to be worse than it should be, due to multiple reports even on this list of 15 minute TsTFF. Also, I apparently cold test my dedicated GPS 1-2 times per day. It's always read to be a GPS before I'm ready to be a driver. Perhaps that says more about how long it takes me to start driving than about how fast my GPS is. That said, I'll try to test it. I'll assume the N810 needs a factory start by this point and then start doing some cold timings. Assuming it doesn't take so long that I have to terminate the test. OK, so my tests are complete. I controlled the GPS with MaemoMapper, which shows how many satellites you've heard from (I guess) and what the signal strengths are. I'm basing average performance on these tests: http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/ttffcomparisons.php 1) Until Saturday, I hadn't had a fix for many months, so I was going to count that as a factory start. Factory start allows for around 12-15 minutes. I got a fix in under 4 minutes. Then I realized that although I was outside, I was still WiFi'd in to the house so it was using AGPS. Result: Invalid. 2) A little over an hour later, I tried from a WiFi-free location. 60-90 minutes is more than 30 minutes (warm test) but much less than 8-12 hours (cold test). According to the baseline, cold tests should take ~1 m, warm tests ~30s. N810? 5 minutes. 3) As soon as I had a fix for a few seconds, I disconnected and retried. This would be a hot test and should take under 10-20 seconds. N810? 5 minutes *again*. 4) Over 12 hours after that, I disabled WiFi at home and tried again. This should be a strict cold test and again should take 1 minute. N810? 13 minutes. Furthermore, I think it would have taken longer if I'd had more patience. It went from 0-5 satellites (I thought 4 or 5 was enough, but it didn't complete then), then wandered down to 1, then back up to 5. This was at the 12 minute mark. So I pointed it up at the sky (it had been resting on the ground) and suddenly all the signal strengths leapt up and I got a fix within a minute after that. Conclusion: The N810 GPS hardware and/or software definitively sucks. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/ ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
Doesn't work that way for a car GPS. Usually takes 5 minutes for a cold start even if moving, iirc. On May 16, 2010 9:59 PM, Peter Dobratz pe...@dobratz.us wrote: This may be stating the obvious, but it tripped me up when I was trying out my Garmin Etrex. You have to be still in order to get a fix. I had the Garmin attached to my bicycle and I was riding up and down my driveway while waiting to go off and map the neighborhood. No fix until I *stopped* for a minute or so. Peter On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 8:42 PM, David Rysdam da...@rysdam.org wrote: On 05/13/2010 08:19 AM, D... ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 10:08 PM, Bruce Labitt bdlab...@gmail.com wrote: Doesn't work that way for a car GPS. Usually takes 5 minutes for a cold start even if moving, iirc. I just today took possession of a Garmin Nuvi 205W. Previous owner claims to have never used it beyond plugging it in once. He took it out of a metal file cabinet and said it had been in there for weeks. When I took it out to my car and plugged it in, it seemed to be ready to navigate almost immediately. I was still in the previous owner's driveway, presumably the last known location. I played with it a bit today, and when outside, it always seemed to be ready as soon as it finished it's startup/splash screen dance. A couple times I brought it inside and powered it on, and it complained it had no satellite signal. When I brought it back outside it would again be ready quickly. While I hesitate to draw firm conclusions from such meager data, if I had to suppose: It doesn't seem to be dependent on seeing the sky all the time to maintain it's ready state. That is, it does not appear that it is always on and watching the sky even when nominally off. If that were the case, I would expect the lack of satellite signal when indoors would cause it later trouble. I think it must either (1) use its last known position as a hint to help it regain its bearings, or (2) be using some other acceleration technique not known to me or discussed on this list. I will test the last known position theory by taking it some place powered off, then powering it on, and seeing if it gets confused or takes longer to become ready. Unrelated to the My GPS is faster than your GPS discussion, but relevant to the Linux friendliness question: It has an apparently standard USB mini B port on the back, which serves for both power input (to charge the battery) and PC attachment (for software/data updates). One of the first things I did was (of course) plug it into my Linux home PC (Debian 5.0.4, kernel 2.6.26-2). The GPS display showed the Garmin logo and a picture of itself plugged into a computer, but Linux was indifferent. Looking at the kernel log, it appeared the GPS wasn't playing nice. I either saw nothing at all, or just over-current change on port. I noticed that if I plugged it into the USB hub built-in to my Dell LCD, the hub would apparently reset, as the kernel would re-detect my mouse and flash card reader. Updating the firmware purportedly requires installing some proprietary software from Garmin. MS Windows and Mac OS X are the only offered options. So I rebooted into my Windoze partition (XP Pro, SP3). Again, I saw no evidence that the OS was even seeing it as a valid USB device. The Garmin software also repeatedly refused to acknowledge the GPS's existence (although it did probe my floppy drive repeatedly -- does Garmin sell a GPS in 3.5 diskette form factor?). Garmin also offers a browser plugin (again, 'doze and Apple only, although they at least support Firefox on 'doze). This is purportedly how one updates the maps on the device. However, that was not working either. The plugin appeared to install, but it said it could not find the GPS. I even tried MSIE 8 -- same result. Flailing around Garmin's website, I eventually found something that told me to try downloading and installing some USB drivers. Earlier I had been told this GPS did not need any drivers; it's just a USB mass storage device. But I gave it a shot anyway. Lo and behold, Windows made the bong-bing noise it makes when it detects hardware attachment, and then sprouted two new drive letters. One had the volume label Garmin and appeared to contain GPS-ish files. The other said no disk; based on the Device Manager name, I'm pretty sure it's for the MMC/SD expansion card slot in the GPS. Anyway, now I was able to run the Garmin software update tool, which updated me from 5.80 to 6.40. When I got back to Linux (ah), the kernel now sees it as two USB mass storage devices. The internal storage appears as a vfat compatible filesystem. I don't know if it was the software update that fixed that, or if my gyrations on the 'doze side just unwedged something, or if the PC reboot did it, or what. So, in conclusion, first impressions: Fast to acquire location (yay!). Software/map updates require an OS from an evil dictatorship (boo!). -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
On 05/12/2010 06:13 PM, Joshua Judson Rosen wrote: Cold tests were performed when both Pocket PC and GPS receiver were powered off (if GPS receiver has a separate power source, the GPS receiver was unplugged) for a period of between 8 to 12 hours requiring a cold start. Warm tests Warm tests were performed when both Pocket PC and GPS receiver were powered off (if GPS receiver has a separate power source, the GPS receiver was unplugged) for a period of 30 minutes Hot tests Hot tests were performed when both Pocket PC and GPS receiver were powered off (if GPS receiver has a separate power source, the GPS receiver was unplugged) for a period of 15 minutes You missed the colder-than-cold test: - Factory is where the receiver has no knowledge whatsoever of Almanac data in turn to locate the satellites and retrieve Ephemeris data, and for a full Almanac to be downloaded can take approx 12.5 mins, hence most companies suggest a factory start of 15 minutes. - So we already know the N810 has to be worse than it should be, due to multiple reports even on this list of 15 minute TsTFF. Also, I apparently cold test my dedicated GPS 1-2 times per day. It's always read to be a GPS before I'm ready to be a driver. Perhaps that says more about how long it takes me to start driving than about how fast my GPS is. That said, I'll try to test it. I'll assume the N810 needs a factory start by this point and then start doing some cold timings. Assuming it doesn't take so long that I have to terminate the test. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 8:19 AM, David Rysdam da...@rysdam.org wrote: That said, I'll try to test it. I'll assume the N810 needs a factory start by this point and then start doing some cold timings. Assuming it doesn't take so long that I have to terminate the test. Install the AGPS update. I think that without it you are doing a cold start every time. Adding that update made a world of difference. ...most of the time. Ty -- Tyson D Sawyer A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. - Daniel Webster ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
On Wed, 2010-05-12 at 13:46 -0400, Joshua Judson Rosen wrote: Stephen Ryan step...@sryanfamily.info writes: My N810 takes 15 minutes+ to lock on to the GPS satellites, and usually takes a lot longer than that (a couple of hours, which is the same thing as useless IMO). I don't bother to use it because of that. On the few occasions I've managed to actually get a connection[...] But is that with or without having the almanac and ephemeris data loaded? The thing to note, here, is that GPS receivers that go longer between use-periods actually take longer to get a fix: the ephemeris (fine-grained) data is valid for something on the order of an hour, and takes ~30 seconds to download if you are able to maintain the downlink continuously. The almanac (course-grained) data is valid for ~months, and takes 12+ minutes to download in full. Straight from the factory, or after months of disuse, a GPS receiver will need to download both the almanac and ephemeris in full; that basically amounts to `falling back to a brute-force approach', and would easily account for `15+ minutes or even hours' of time to first fix (TTFF). Note that, because there's no *uplink*, the way that you resolve having missed any part of the transmission... is just to wait for it to repeat If you go for a while without using the thing, and then try to start it in a sufficiently far-off location (`it'd be great if my GPS worked now, I guess I might as well try it'), then that's probably even worse. What I do with my FreeRunner is that I have it configured to turn its GPS on whenever it's plugge into an external power-source, so it'll download updated data from the satellites all while I'm asleep (and both of us are recharging), and whenever I have it plugged-in in my car. I suspect that the car-based units have misleadingly quick TTFF because they're also able to use this trick. This is why I'm dubious of these `N810's GPS receiver is slow' claims-- because coupling them with `... so I never use it' is actually a vicious cycle. If that *is* actually the issue, then the fact that the N900 can be Internet-connected all the time, though, could lessen the other `N-series GPS' failings to the point where use-Hz increases and eliminates the `slow TTFF due to expired data' problem. Heck, if the `also being a phone' part means that it gets plugged into a wall-charger more frequently, that could also contribute to a solution--never mind being able to download assists from outside the scope of GPS per se. Assuming that this is your problem, of course Thank you, that was quite clear and helpful. The N900 might well be better, as most of the current development efforts appear to be directed towards it. It does explain why I've never gotten a satellite fix in less than 15 minutes, and I suppose might even mostly explain the multi-hour battery-ran-out-before-it-got-a-fix scenario (which has happened twice). Sadly, my use for a GPS is once-a-season, not once-a-day, so I guess it remains an idle curiosity. -- Stephen Ryan step...@sryanfamily.info ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
Stephen Ryan step...@sryanfamily.info writes: On Tue, 2010-05-11 at 22:12 -0400, David Rysdam wrote: On 05/11/2010 09:31 PM, Joshua Judson Rosen wrote: How's the GPS? I heard from someone that the N810's GPS was lacking, though I'm still somewhat suspicious of his specific evaluation Google will back me up. Although Google will also claim various fixes, particularly A-GPS which requires an internet connection and is therefore useless in (my) normal use. Other solutions include an external GPS, which I don't really consider to be a fix so much as a separate product. And in any case that would still leave me using the N810's map software which is also pretty bad, at least for what I do. My N810 takes 15 minutes+ to lock on to the GPS satellites, and usually takes a lot longer than that (a couple of hours, which is the same thing as useless IMO). I don't bother to use it because of that. On the few occasions I've managed to actually get a connection[...] But is that with or without having the almanac and ephemeris data loaded? The thing to note, here, is that GPS receivers that go longer between use-periods actually take longer to get a fix: the ephemeris (fine-grained) data is valid for something on the order of an hour, and takes ~30 seconds to download if you are able to maintain the downlink continuously. The almanac (course-grained) data is valid for ~months, and takes 12+ minutes to download in full. Straight from the factory, or after months of disuse, a GPS receiver will need to download both the almanac and ephemeris in full; that basically amounts to `falling back to a brute-force approach', and would easily account for `15+ minutes or even hours' of time to first fix (TTFF). Note that, because there's no *uplink*, the way that you resolve having missed any part of the transmission... is just to wait for it to repeat If you go for a while without using the thing, and then try to start it in a sufficiently far-off location (`it'd be great if my GPS worked now, I guess I might as well try it'), then that's probably even worse. What I do with my FreeRunner is that I have it configured to turn its GPS on whenever it's plugge into an external power-source, so it'll download updated data from the satellites all while I'm asleep (and both of us are recharging), and whenever I have it plugged-in in my car. I suspect that the car-based units have misleadingly quick TTFF because they're also able to use this trick. This is why I'm dubious of these `N810's GPS receiver is slow' claims-- because coupling them with `... so I never use it' is actually a vicious cycle. If that *is* actually the issue, then the fact that the N900 can be Internet-connected all the time, though, could lessen the other `N-series GPS' failings to the point where use-Hz increases and eliminates the `slow TTFF due to expired data' problem. Heck, if the `also being a phone' part means that it gets plugged into a wall-charger more frequently, that could also contribute to a solution--never mind being able to download assists from outside the scope of GPS per se. Assuming that this is your problem, of course -- Don't be afraid to ask (λf.((λx.xx) (λr.f(rr. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
On 05/12/2010 01:46 PM, Joshua Judson Rosen wrote: This is why I'm dubious of these `N810's GPS receiver is slow' claims-- because coupling them with `... so I never use it' is actually a vicious cycle. Are the claims peculiar to the N810? If not, perhaps you are right. What other not-always-on-the-internet devices that support GPS as a non-main feature are there? I could do a test. Get a fix, drop it, wait N hours and reacquire. Graph reacquisition time against N. Except I'll never have the time for all those tests, so I'll just do one if you suggest a value for N. I will note, though, that when I first unpacked my actual GPS it acquired a signal in just a couple of minutes *from inside the house* whereas the N810 has rarely done it even standing in the yard for significant fractions of an hour. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 2:06 PM, David Rysdam da...@rysdam.org wrote: I will note, though, that when I first unpacked my actual GPS it acquired a signal in just a couple of minutes *from inside the house* ... It's certainly the case that quality of GPS chips and receivers varies. Better devices are likely to be bigger and use more power, so a dedicated device (I assume that's what you mean by actual GPS) may have more resources available for that. Combo devices usually have to make compromises (does everything, but nothing well). I also suspect some GPS implementations use more sophisticated techniques than others. It seems likely that given more RAM, faster CPU, and/or smarter software, an implementation should be able to make estimates to accelerate the getting a fix phase. Something akin to well, I know I was here when I turned on last time, so let's assume I'm still in that vicinity and see if the data I'm getting makes sense. Or maybe not; I don't know much about how GPS works, beyond the fact that it uses timing differences between signals received from multiple satellites. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 2:06 PM, David Rysdam da...@rysdam.org wrote: On 05/12/2010 01:46 PM, Joshua Judson Rosen wrote: This is why I'm dubious of these `N810's GPS receiver is slow' claims-- because coupling them with `... so I never use it' is actually a vicious cycle. [...] I will note, though, that when I first unpacked my actual GPS it acquired a signal in just a couple of minutes *from inside the house* whereas the N810 has rarely done it even standing in the yard for significant fractions of an hour. The N810's GPS doesn't seem to be as good as a dedicated GPS when it comes to an initial fix. Some of this seems to be about almanacs and stuff. Once it has a fix, it seems to work quite well. The AGPS update/addition frequently helped. Esp. if the GPS is used frequently, its time to initial fix is quite quick. The AGPS update adds the feature of telling the system approximately where it is on the map. This is a useful feature for when it is going to take a long time. I've noted that my Droid typically gets initial fixes nearly instantly. However, it has the advantage of cell-tower triangulation for an approximate initial fix. The N900 should have this ability also. Cheers! Ty -- Tyson D Sawyer A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. - Daniel Webster ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
A dedicated GPS will have the maps. On a cell, you download the maps. My balackberry gets a fix almost as well as my garmin, but then you need to get maps too. On 5/12/10, Tyson Sawyer ty...@j3.org wrote: On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 2:06 PM, David Rysdam da...@rysdam.org wrote: On 05/12/2010 01:46 PM, Joshua Judson Rosen wrote: This is why I'm dubious of these `N810's GPS receiver is slow' claims-- because coupling them with `... so I never use it' is actually a vicious cycle. [...] I will note, though, that when I first unpacked my actual GPS it acquired a signal in just a couple of minutes *from inside the house* whereas the N810 has rarely done it even standing in the yard for significant fractions of an hour. The N810's GPS doesn't seem to be as good as a dedicated GPS when it comes to an initial fix. Some of this seems to be about almanacs and stuff. Once it has a fix, it seems to work quite well. The AGPS update/addition frequently helped. Esp. if the GPS is used frequently, its time to initial fix is quite quick. The AGPS update adds the feature of telling the system approximately where it is on the map. This is a useful feature for when it is going to take a long time. I've noted that my Droid typically gets initial fixes nearly instantly. However, it has the advantage of cell-tower triangulation for an approximate initial fix. The N900 should have this ability also. Cheers! Ty -- Tyson D Sawyer A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. - Daniel Webster ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/ ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 2:48 PM, Tom Buskey t...@buskey.name wrote: A dedicated GPS will have the maps. On a cell, you download the maps. My balackberry gets a fix almost as well as my garmin, but then you need to get maps too. http://www.mapdroyd.com/ -- Tyson D Sawyer A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. - Daniel Webster ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
David Rysdam da...@rysdam.org writes: On 05/12/2010 01:46 PM, Joshua Judson Rosen wrote: This is why I'm dubious of these `N810's GPS receiver is slow' claims-- because coupling them with `... so I never use it' is actually a vicious cycle. Are the claims peculiar to the N810? If not, perhaps you are right. What other not-always-on-the-internet devices that support GPS as a non-main feature are there? I could do a test. Get a fix, drop it, wait N hours and reacquire. Graph reacquisition time against N. Except I'll never have the time for all those tests, so I'll just do one if you suggest a value for N. Well, the way I interpreted your described use-pattern put N somewhere in the thousands. ;) My suggestion is to duplicate the ranges of N described in this here page that I found: http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/ttffcomparisons.php ... noting that between 8 to 12 hours means that you want to have had a successful fix *within the past 12 hours*; and that you want to be sure that you actually wait for a `3-D fix', because you can get a 2-D fix before you have enough data to get a 3-D fix, and some elements such as GPS time can become available without having attained fix. Summary: Cold tests were performed when both Pocket PC and GPS receiver were powered off (if GPS receiver has a separate power source, the GPS receiver was unplugged) for a period of between 8 to 12 hours requiring a cold start. Warm tests Warm tests were performed when both Pocket PC and GPS receiver were powered off (if GPS receiver has a separate power source, the GPS receiver was unplugged) for a period of 30 minutes Hot tests Hot tests were performed when both Pocket PC and GPS receiver were powered off (if GPS receiver has a separate power source, the GPS receiver was unplugged) for a period of 15 minutes And, of course: be sure that you are outdoors with a clear sky, and that you have a nice wide view of that sky. It'd probably be worthwhile to take note of both the `2-D fix' time and the `3-D fix' time, and the length of their delta. I will note, though, that when I first unpacked my actual GPS it acquired a signal in just a couple of minutes *from inside the house* whereas the N810 has rarely done it even standing in the yard for significant fractions of an hour. Pshaw--I bet that's another trick: they probably preprogrammed it with your shipping-/billing-address, just to make themselves look better ;) -- Don't be afraid to ask (λf.((λx.xx) (λr.f(rr. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900 // GPS, again
On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 9:31 PM, Joshua Judson Rosen roz...@geekspace.com wrote: How's the GPS? I heard from someone that the N810's GPS was lacking, I had heard same on N810 and N900, so didn't have high expectations and so haven't tested extensively. I vaguely think it's supposed to be quicker than 810 but still not a terribly precise (by GPS nerd standards). Only time I tried it half-seriously I had horrible skies, indoors near window with 3G, and was pleasantly surprised it was able to be crudely off-position quickly. Since I was thinking of getting a logger (screenless) GPS anyway, for use with camera geotagging, having a logger bluetooth bond with the N900 only when I want to do precision mapping live online doesn't seem unreasonable for me. I myself would not plan on using my phone for navigation, as for that I use a sportsman's Garmin which is differently hackable (OSM.ORG maps, freebeer downloaded POI files, custom by me POI files with my own icons). I use rangeazimuth more often than turn-by-turn, and when using street routing it's more for amusement or for debuging the OSM import of MASS GIS or TIGER data than for actual guidance. I also wouldn't want my phone loose on the dash either, it rides on the console on an antiskid mat (bought in kitchen gadget aisle at grocery who think its a drawer liner). (In that position, a Bluetooth screenless GPS several feet forward at the base of the windscreen would help sky visibility too., but not safely viewable by driver for Nav.) -- Bill n1...@arrl.net bill.n1...@gmail.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900 // GPS
On 04/30/2010 08:33 AM, Benjamin Scott wrote: I was rather disappointed. I used the 2.5mm jack wireline version once (thanks, Bill McG!), and it was much better. Apparently they skimped on the electronics in this one. Yeah, I thought I'd 'upgrade' to the bluetooth version and it's not the droid I was looking for. I mostly use an old Plantronics 2.5mm 1-ear headset these days if I have to use the cellphone for long. My LG phone does great managing the gain, the previous Motorola didn't. The wire is unfortunate but I've tried a variety of bluetooth headsets on several phones and they've all failed at the basics, like simple noise rejection. The cheap headset uses a plastic mic boom, not DSP's, and sounds great. If anybody actually wants the bluetooth retro, understanding its limitations, just shout - the LUG sneakernet can probably find a routing solution. -Bill -- Bill McGonigle, Owner BFC Computing, LLC http://bfccomputing.com/ Telephone: +1.603.448.4440 Email, IM, VOIP: b...@bfccomputing.com VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf Social networks: bill_mcgonigle/bill.mcgonigle ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Bluetooth telephone interfaces (was: Nokia N900 // bluetooth)
On 04/30/2010 09:48 AM, Benjamin Scott wrote: Geeks are less likely to accept crap when they it could be done better, and TG is certainly willing to charge a premium for quality on other items. But not willing to put up a customer reviews system... -Bill -- Bill McGonigle, Owner BFC Computing, LLC http://bfccomputing.com/ Telephone: +1.603.448.4440 Email, IM, VOIP: b...@bfccomputing.com VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf Social networks: bill_mcgonigle/bill.mcgonigle ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Bluetooth telephone interfaces (was: Nokia N900 // bluetooth)
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 6:18 PM, Benjamin Scott dragonh...@gmail.com wrote: My biggest beef with Bluetooth headsets is that they almost never have user replaceable batteries. It's hard to justify spending for quality with the device is guaranteed to die after a year or two or regular usage. Granted, the small size makes this a challenge, but it's hardly an insurmountable problem. I use a Motorola earpiece that uses AAA batteries - I bought it because it has removable batteries. For work with my phone, it's pretty good (at least as good as the sound I get from the phone itself). ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 9:33 PM, Bill Ricker bill.n1...@gmail.com wrote: you will want a bluetooth earbud or retro handset or both. Both: http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/cellphone/8928/ (I have one. Audio quality sucks, unfortunately.) -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900 // GPS
Both: http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/cellphone/8928/ (I have one. Audio quality sucks, unfortunately.) yeah it sounds gike a1g cellphone ... but it looks good and fits the ear-mouth spacing. uniting threads, OSM2Go field map-editing program works fine with N900 , although i am told the internal GPS is low res and on outboard bluetooth GPS placed where it has good sat vis will improve things. Repository includes gpsd iirc. Haven't used the OviMaemo mapping. -- Bill n1...@arrl.net bill.n1...@gmail.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900 // GPS
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 8:16 AM, Bill Ricker bill.n1...@gmail.com wrote: Both: http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/cellphone/8928/ (I have one. Audio quality sucks, unfortunately.) yeah it sounds gike a1g cellphone ... I was rather disappointed. I used the 2.5mm jack wireline version once (thanks, Bill McG!), and it was much better. Apparently they skimped on the electronics in this one. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900 // bluetooth
re bluetooth retro handset I have one. Audio quality sucks, unfortunately. I was rather disappointed. I used the 2.5mm jack wireline version once (thanks, Bill McG!), and it was much better. Apparently they skimped on the electronics in this one. That's more or less true with much of Bluetooth telephonic (as opposed to stereo) audio. I talked to the Cellphone Accessories aisle clerk at Fry's, told him I liked the ear-fit of Jabra and the audio quality of Plantronics. He said Jarbra BT850 was the only one that would suit me. Love it. Not sure what if any current part# is equivalent. I have had a Plantronics or two also, great feature and quality, but the Jabra gels fit like Uhura's earbud, it's hardly there. -- Bill n1...@arrl.net bill.n1...@gmail.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Bluetooth telephone interfaces (was: Nokia N900 // bluetooth)
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Bill Ricker bill.n1...@gmail.com wrote: re [ThinkGeek] bluetooth retro handset I have one. Audio quality sucks, unfortunately. That's more or less true with much of Bluetooth telephonic (as opposed to stereo) audio. Perhaps so. Sturgeon's law. I was still disappointed. ThinkGeek should know their customer base better. Geeks are less likely to accept crap when they it could be done better, and TG is certainly willing to charge a premium for quality on other items. I have a Plantronics Voyager Pro which I'm quite happy with. Audio is good even in the noisy factory areas at work. Strong wind against the mic boom can be an issue, but turning my head or shielding it with my hand works (and tends to not work with cheaper models). It had something like Jabra's ear gels which fit nicely. That fell off and got lost a couple months ago, and it's actually not too bad with just the plastic nub, although I want to find a replacement. But it seems stores don't stock replacement gels, which I find stupid. I've been meaning to check their website. My biggest beef with Bluetooth headsets is that they almost never have user replaceable batteries. It's hard to justify spending for quality with the device is guaranteed to die after a year or two or regular usage. Granted, the small size makes this a challenge, but it's hardly an insurmountable problem. He said Jarbra BT850 was the only one that would suit me. Love it. Not sure what if any current part# is equivalent. I loved my old Jabra wireline earpiece -- it had very good audio quality without any kind of mic boom or ear loop -- but apparently they don't do that style anymore. We tried a Jabra BT5020 for a desk application at work. Audio quality was mediocre. I don't like Jabra as much as I used to. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Bluetooth telephone interfaces (was: Nokia N900 // bluetooth)
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 9:48 AM, Benjamin Scott dragonh...@gmail.comwrote: We tried a Jabra BT5020 for a desk application at work. Audio quality was mediocre. I don't like Jabra as much as I used to. Yes, most wireless is crap. That's why I asked the Frys' guy if any Jabra BT had Plantronics-grade audio, and he said ONLY the BT850 had audio comparable to good wired or Plantronics wireless headset. I would stil trust any Jabra for wired. -- Bill n1...@arrl.net bill.n1...@gmail.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
I'm looking at upgrading my phone. Even though I won't get 3G, I'm looking at the Nokia N900. Has anyone used it? What are your thoughts? I really like mine, it have placed my phone my Zaurus. Works well on T-Mobile 3G, 2.5G (Is that EDGE?), 3.5G (WTF is that?), and WiFi. Internet is not going to be fiber speed that way but ... it's better than nothing. N900's Key advantage -- root shell is a supported download away. Package repository http://maemo.org/downloads/Maemo5/ has choice of many normal Linux packages like Vim, OpenSsh, VNC, Pidgin, Xchat, Irssi, Perl modules, Ogg, fbreader another eBook reader, ... It helps that I am a Debian/Ubuntu sort of person so I grok Maemo more than Android. (Next Intel/Nokia version Meego will be RPM, but expect Maemo FLOSS to stay Apt) Be warned the fonts are really small like all the smart phones. Understand please that it is only available unlocked, off-contract. Note that all these touch phones are clumsier as phones than old flip phones -- fail to lock keyboard and it will pocket dial; it's shaped like a chimney tile not a phone; you will want a bluetooth earbud or retro handset or both. -- Bill n1...@arrl.net bill.n1...@gmail.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Nokia N900
I'm looking at upgrading my phone. Even though I won't get 3G, I'm looking at the Nokia N900. Has anyone used it? What are your thoughts? ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Nokia N900
On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Dan Miller rambi@gmail.com wrote: I'm looking at upgrading my phone. Even though I won't get 3G, I'm looking at the Nokia N900. Has anyone used it? What are your thoughts? That and the Motorola Backflip are the two that I'm looking at. Would appreciate any thoughts. jeff ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
