Re: [Discuss] Any miners?

[Tom Buskey]

Short answer: You need to calculate the bitawatt (electricity to run the
algorithm) costs vs the value of the coin.  FWIW Google counts bitawatts.
A 1% reduction in power/heat to run an algorithm saves them lots of $$$.

As the computational complexity went up, the amount of electricity needed
went up.  GPUs and later custom ASICs are attempts to use less electricity.

If the cost of electricity goes to zero, the amount of time to calculate is
less important.

So, if you're using Dad's electricity, Bitcoin mining is Free.  There is
malware out there that just does Bitcoin mining.  If you automate the
botnet enough, the labor cost vs the yield makes it worth it to use other
people's electricity.


On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 9:13 PM, Jeffrey Creem  wrote:

> More people mining does not push price down as the difficulty adjusts
> (about every 2 weeks) automatically to keep the average rate of discovery
> of a block at 10 minutes.
>
> Also, GPU mining of bitcoin has not really  been possible for a couple of
> years.
>
> You need custom ASICS. Cloud mining can be done  the cloud provider needs
> hardware designed to mine bitcoin...
> Not just a really fast computer.
>
>
>
> On Jun 18, 2017 5:38 PM, "David Johnson" 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Recent article, however it doesn't get into the risks.  There is
>> clearly capital investment needed if you're going to be somewhat
>> serious about it.
>>
>> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/an-idiots-guide-t
>> o-building-an-ethereum-mining-rig
>>
>> If it's worth it depends on both electricity cost (which is highly
>> variable by geo location worldwide), but also the payback of any
>> hardware purchased.  If the currency falls in value before you've paid
>> back your hardware investment after electricity cost you've lost money
>> and potentially lots of it.
>>
>> My impression is the more people mine, the currency price will be
>> pushed back down to find an equilibrium so there's lots of risk if
>> you're making an investment.
>>
>> The alternative strategy would be to use cloud based GPU instances on
>> demand when prices spike but not otherwise.  That way there is no
>> capital investment.  Now if cloud based GPU instances ever would be
>> cheap enough is a different question.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Neil Schelly writes:
>> > I have a coworker who makes money mining. His strategy is to mine for
>> > the alternative currencies that are still comparatively easy to mine
>> > than BitCoin. Whatever value he earns there gets exchanged for value
>> > in BitCoin. From what I gather, he makes a decently steady side income
>> > from it, though I haven't really probed for details. I suspect it's in
>> > the range of a few thousand dollars a month profit.
>> > -Neil
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 8:46 PM, Lloyd Kvam  wrote:
>> > > Bitcoin did hit a peak value of $3,000 last week, so that would help
>> the economics.
>> > >
>> > > My impression is that you need some edge in cost of bandwidth,
>> electric power, or
>> > > computer hardware for this to be an attractive business. Just
>> tracking the blockchain
>> > > can use enough resources to be annoying.
>> > >
>> > > An alternative approach would be to bet on bitcoins displacing gold:
>> short gold and
>> > > buy bitcoins. Of course that does not let you play with hardware.
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, 2017-06-16 at 18:12 -0400, Bill Ricker wrote:
>> > >> Bitcoin initially did not require specialized hardware, but as new
>> golden
>> > >> hashes get harder to find, mining costs more in electricity and
>> > >> depreciation without speciality gear (or a huge BITNET running for
>> free).
>> > >> If scarcity drives up BTC value, maybe, but odds of finding one still
>> > >> declining as payoff increases. I haven't checked the calculation
>> lately, it
>> > >> would be a good exercise: what would an AWS VPS mining cluster big
>> enough
>> > >> to average 1 BTC mined per week cost to operate?
>> > >>
>> > >> Which if any of the alt-coins have legit upside is not yet clear,
>> and the
>> > >> most likely of them already requires a cluster and has had its first
>> major
>> > >> scam.
>> > >>
>> > >> / bill
>> > >>
>> > >> On Jun 16, 2017 5:58 PM, "Greg Rundlett (freephile)" <
>> g...@freephile.com>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> >
>> > >> > My son is investigating crypto-currency mining and seems to think
>> it's
>> > >> > incredibly lucrative.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I've not delved into it at all.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Comments? Anyone actually making money mining?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > From what I've previously gathered, I thought the amount of
>> computational
>> > >> > power, expense and electricity just about squeezed out anybody but
>> those
>> > >> > with super-specialized hardware.
>> > >> >
>> ___
>> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
>> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
>> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>>
>
> 

Re: [Discuss] Any miners?

[Jeffrey Creem]

More people mining does not push price down as the difficulty adjusts
(about every 2 weeks) automatically to keep the average rate of discovery
of a block at 10 minutes.

Also, GPU mining of bitcoin has not really  been possible for a couple of
years.

You need custom ASICS. Cloud mining can be done  the cloud provider needs
hardware designed to mine bitcoin...
Not just a really fast computer.



On Jun 18, 2017 5:38 PM, "David Johnson"  wrote:

>
> Recent article, however it doesn't get into the risks.  There is
> clearly capital investment needed if you're going to be somewhat
> serious about it.
>
> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/an-idiots-guide-
> to-building-an-ethereum-mining-rig
>
> If it's worth it depends on both electricity cost (which is highly
> variable by geo location worldwide), but also the payback of any
> hardware purchased.  If the currency falls in value before you've paid
> back your hardware investment after electricity cost you've lost money
> and potentially lots of it.
>
> My impression is the more people mine, the currency price will be
> pushed back down to find an equilibrium so there's lots of risk if
> you're making an investment.
>
> The alternative strategy would be to use cloud based GPU instances on
> demand when prices spike but not otherwise.  That way there is no
> capital investment.  Now if cloud based GPU instances ever would be
> cheap enough is a different question.
>
>
>
>
>
> Neil Schelly writes:
> > I have a coworker who makes money mining. His strategy is to mine for
> > the alternative currencies that are still comparatively easy to mine
> > than BitCoin. Whatever value he earns there gets exchanged for value
> > in BitCoin. From what I gather, he makes a decently steady side income
> > from it, though I haven't really probed for details. I suspect it's in
> > the range of a few thousand dollars a month profit.
> > -Neil
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 8:46 PM, Lloyd Kvam  wrote:
> > > Bitcoin did hit a peak value of $3,000 last week, so that would help
> the economics.
> > >
> > > My impression is that you need some edge in cost of bandwidth,
> electric power, or
> > > computer hardware for this to be an attractive business. Just tracking
> the blockchain
> > > can use enough resources to be annoying.
> > >
> > > An alternative approach would be to bet on bitcoins displacing gold:
> short gold and
> > > buy bitcoins. Of course that does not let you play with hardware.
> > >
> > > On Fri, 2017-06-16 at 18:12 -0400, Bill Ricker wrote:
> > >> Bitcoin initially did not require specialized hardware, but as new
> golden
> > >> hashes get harder to find, mining costs more in electricity and
> > >> depreciation without speciality gear (or a huge BITNET running for
> free).
> > >> If scarcity drives up BTC value, maybe, but odds of finding one still
> > >> declining as payoff increases. I haven't checked the calculation
> lately, it
> > >> would be a good exercise: what would an AWS VPS mining cluster big
> enough
> > >> to average 1 BTC mined per week cost to operate?
> > >>
> > >> Which if any of the alt-coins have legit upside is not yet clear, and
> the
> > >> most likely of them already requires a cluster and has had its first
> major
> > >> scam.
> > >>
> > >> / bill
> > >>
> > >> On Jun 16, 2017 5:58 PM, "Greg Rundlett (freephile)" <
> g...@freephile.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > My son is investigating crypto-currency mining and seems to think
> it's
> > >> > incredibly lucrative.
> > >> >
> > >> > I've not delved into it at all.
> > >> >
> > >> > Comments? Anyone actually making money mining?
> > >> >
> > >> > From what I've previously gathered, I thought the amount of
> computational
> > >> > power, expense and electricity just about squeezed out anybody but
> those
> > >> > with super-specialized hardware.
> > >> >
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
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Re: [Discuss] Any miners?

[David Johnson]

Recent article, however it doesn't get into the risks.  There is
clearly capital investment needed if you're going to be somewhat
serious about it.

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/an-idiots-guide-to-building-an-ethereum-mining-rig

If it's worth it depends on both electricity cost (which is highly
variable by geo location worldwide), but also the payback of any
hardware purchased.  If the currency falls in value before you've paid
back your hardware investment after electricity cost you've lost money
and potentially lots of it.

My impression is the more people mine, the currency price will be
pushed back down to find an equilibrium so there's lots of risk if
you're making an investment.

The alternative strategy would be to use cloud based GPU instances on
demand when prices spike but not otherwise.  That way there is no
capital investment.  Now if cloud based GPU instances ever would be
cheap enough is a different question.





Neil Schelly writes:
> I have a coworker who makes money mining. His strategy is to mine for
> the alternative currencies that are still comparatively easy to mine
> than BitCoin. Whatever value he earns there gets exchanged for value
> in BitCoin. From what I gather, he makes a decently steady side income
> from it, though I haven't really probed for details. I suspect it's in
> the range of a few thousand dollars a month profit.
> -Neil
> 
> On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 8:46 PM, Lloyd Kvam  wrote:
> > Bitcoin did hit a peak value of $3,000 last week, so that would help the 
> > economics.
> >
> > My impression is that you need some edge in cost of bandwidth, electric 
> > power, or
> > computer hardware for this to be an attractive business. Just tracking the 
> > blockchain
> > can use enough resources to be annoying.
> >
> > An alternative approach would be to bet on bitcoins displacing gold: short 
> > gold and
> > buy bitcoins. Of course that does not let you play with hardware.
> >
> > On Fri, 2017-06-16 at 18:12 -0400, Bill Ricker wrote:
> >> Bitcoin initially did not require specialized hardware, but as new golden
> >> hashes get harder to find, mining costs more in electricity and
> >> depreciation without speciality gear (or a huge BITNET running for free).
> >> If scarcity drives up BTC value, maybe, but odds of finding one still
> >> declining as payoff increases. I haven't checked the calculation lately, it
> >> would be a good exercise: what would an AWS VPS mining cluster big enough
> >> to average 1 BTC mined per week cost to operate?
> >>
> >> Which if any of the alt-coins have legit upside is not yet clear, and the
> >> most likely of them already requires a cluster and has had its first major
> >> scam.
> >>
> >> / bill
> >>
> >> On Jun 16, 2017 5:58 PM, "Greg Rundlett (freephile)" 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > My son is investigating crypto-currency mining and seems to think it's
> >> > incredibly lucrative.
> >> >
> >> > I've not delved into it at all.
> >> >
> >> > Comments? Anyone actually making money mining?
> >> >
> >> > From what I've previously gathered, I thought the amount of computational
> >> > power, expense and electricity just about squeezed out anybody but those
> >> > with super-specialized hardware.
> >> >
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Re: [Discuss] Any miners?

[Joshua Judson Rosen]

On 06/16/2017 06:12 PM, Bill Ricker wrote:
> Bitcoin initially did not require specialized hardware, but as new golden 
> hashes get harder to find, mining costs more
> in electricity and depreciation without speciality gear (or a huge BITNET 
> running for free). If scarcity drives up BTC
> value, maybe, but odds of finding one still declining as payoff increases. I 
> haven't checked the calculation lately, it
> would be a good exercise: what would an AWS VPS mining cluster big enough to 
> average 1 BTC mined per week cost to operate?

IIRC Amazon asks the purpose of your cluster before they rent it to you;
do they accept bitcoin-mining? And do they report you to the IRS/SEC? ;)

-- 
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Re: [Discuss] Any miners?

[Neil Schelly]

I have a coworker who makes money mining. His strategy is to mine for
the alternative currencies that are still comparatively easy to mine
than BitCoin. Whatever value he earns there gets exchanged for value
in BitCoin. From what I gather, he makes a decently steady side income
from it, though I haven't really probed for details. I suspect it's in
the range of a few thousand dollars a month profit.
-Neil

On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 8:46 PM, Lloyd Kvam  wrote:
> Bitcoin did hit a peak value of $3,000 last week, so that would help the 
> economics.
>
> My impression is that you need some edge in cost of bandwidth, electric 
> power, or
> computer hardware for this to be an attractive business. Just tracking the 
> blockchain
> can use enough resources to be annoying.
>
> An alternative approach would be to bet on bitcoins displacing gold: short 
> gold and
> buy bitcoins. Of course that does not let you play with hardware.
>
> On Fri, 2017-06-16 at 18:12 -0400, Bill Ricker wrote:
>> Bitcoin initially did not require specialized hardware, but as new golden
>> hashes get harder to find, mining costs more in electricity and
>> depreciation without speciality gear (or a huge BITNET running for free).
>> If scarcity drives up BTC value, maybe, but odds of finding one still
>> declining as payoff increases. I haven't checked the calculation lately, it
>> would be a good exercise: what would an AWS VPS mining cluster big enough
>> to average 1 BTC mined per week cost to operate?
>>
>> Which if any of the alt-coins have legit upside is not yet clear, and the
>> most likely of them already requires a cluster and has had its first major
>> scam.
>>
>> / bill
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2017 5:58 PM, "Greg Rundlett (freephile)" 
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > My son is investigating crypto-currency mining and seems to think it's
>> > incredibly lucrative.
>> >
>> > I've not delved into it at all.
>> >
>> > Comments? Anyone actually making money mining?
>> >
>> > From what I've previously gathered, I thought the amount of computational
>> > power, expense and electricity just about squeezed out anybody but those
>> > with super-specialized hardware.
>> >
>> > Greg Rundlett
>> > https://eQuality-Tech.com
>> > https://freephile.org
>> > ___
>> > Discuss mailing list
>> > disc...@blu.org
>> > http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>> >
>> ___
>> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
>> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
>> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
> --
> Lloyd Kvam
> 5 Foliage View
> Lebanon, NH 03766
> 802-448-0836
>
>
>
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Re: [Discuss] Any miners?

[Lloyd Kvam]

Bitcoin did hit a peak value of $3,000 last week, so that would help the 
economics.

My impression is that you need some edge in cost of bandwidth, electric power, 
or
computer hardware for this to be an attractive business. Just tracking the 
blockchain
can use enough resources to be annoying.

An alternative approach would be to bet on bitcoins displacing gold: short gold 
and
buy bitcoins. Of course that does not let you play with hardware.

On Fri, 2017-06-16 at 18:12 -0400, Bill Ricker wrote:
> Bitcoin initially did not require specialized hardware, but as new golden
> hashes get harder to find, mining costs more in electricity and
> depreciation without speciality gear (or a huge BITNET running for free).
> If scarcity drives up BTC value, maybe, but odds of finding one still
> declining as payoff increases. I haven't checked the calculation lately, it
> would be a good exercise: what would an AWS VPS mining cluster big enough
> to average 1 BTC mined per week cost to operate?
> 
> Which if any of the alt-coins have legit upside is not yet clear, and the
> most likely of them already requires a cluster and has had its first major
> scam.
> 
> / bill
> 
> On Jun 16, 2017 5:58 PM, "Greg Rundlett (freephile)" 
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > My son is investigating crypto-currency mining and seems to think it's
> > incredibly lucrative.
> > 
> > I've not delved into it at all.
> > 
> > Comments? Anyone actually making money mining?
> > 
> > From what I've previously gathered, I thought the amount of computational
> > power, expense and electricity just about squeezed out anybody but those
> > with super-specialized hardware.
> > 
> > Greg Rundlett
> > https://eQuality-Tech.com
> > https://freephile.org
> > ___
> > Discuss mailing list
> > disc...@blu.org
> > http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> > 
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
-- 
Lloyd Kvam
5 Foliage View
Lebanon, NH 03766
802-448-0836



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Re: [Discuss] Any miners?

[Bill Ricker]

Bitcoin initially did not require specialized hardware, but as new golden
hashes get harder to find, mining costs more in electricity and
depreciation without speciality gear (or a huge BITNET running for free).
If scarcity drives up BTC value, maybe, but odds of finding one still
declining as payoff increases. I haven't checked the calculation lately, it
would be a good exercise: what would an AWS VPS mining cluster big enough
to average 1 BTC mined per week cost to operate?

Which if any of the alt-coins have legit upside is not yet clear, and the
most likely of them already requires a cluster and has had its first major
scam.

/ bill

On Jun 16, 2017 5:58 PM, "Greg Rundlett (freephile)" 
wrote:

> My son is investigating crypto-currency mining and seems to think it's
> incredibly lucrative.
>
> I've not delved into it at all.
>
> Comments? Anyone actually making money mining?
>
> From what I've previously gathered, I thought the amount of computational
> power, expense and electricity just about squeezed out anybody but those
> with super-specialized hardware.
>
> Greg Rundlett
> https://eQuality-Tech.com
> https://freephile.org
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> disc...@blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
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