Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmiri chillies
Hi Jerry Re toilets, if Bangalore can do so well, Goa can do as well surely. Cornel --- Jerry Fernandes said: I have been to Bangalore bus station, and believe me the toilet there is as good as star hotels toilet, and very clean, and urinals were free.
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
Mario Goveia wrote: [1] The continued spitting, urinating and defecating in public that can be seen across India is a national disgrace, aided and abetted by the failure of the municipal authorities to provide adequate and clean public toilets. [2] I have seen low income areas in other tropical countries in Latin America and the Caribbean where the modest houses or shacks do not have their own toilets, but everyone uses the many public toilets which are kept relatively clean. [3] In India, probably because of the habits brought by villagers migrating to urban areas, people have no compunction in urinating and defecating in public. [4] I have no idea what the women do in India, especially those wearing saris. I'm afraid to ask, but I'm sure someone will tell us:-)). == jc's response: Excellent posting. addendum 1: Even if the 'municipal authorities provide adequate and clean public toilets', I cannot envisage that the paan-spitters NOT spitting the red stuff on the walls of buildings and on the foot-paths. At most they would also spit all over the public toilets and continue spitting on the walls. addendum 2: The evidence of spitting started appearing on Goan walls and of defecation on Goan beaches started appearing only after 1965. BUT, If one is to believe some arm-chair planners who do not have a clue of the magnitude of the problem, the answer apparently is to place Port-a-loos all over the place. So, tourists can visit churches, temples and Portaloos! re [4] supra: One surely has heard of Don't ask, Don't Tell (:-) jc
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmiri chillies
2008/5/27 Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Mario wrote: Mario responds: Sadly, Gabe is both wrong and right:-)) First, Gabe is wrong because a rocket scientist would surely see that his calculation above is too simplistic. On the other hand, Gabe is absolutely right that more education is required here, which I am happy to provide:-)) The USD640 per ounce is a simple average of USD280 and USD1,000. However, the actual average would also depend on how many ounces were bought at USD280 and how many at USD1,000. For example, ignoring fees and commissions, if 10 oz. were bought at USD280 and 20 oz. at USD1,000, the average for these two transactions would be USD760 per ounce, not USD640. REPLY: Still in the money; even more so if he continued to buy at intervals right up to and including USD1000. Only 1 trade gone wrong, after possible 7 successes. Now I suppose you will come up with an even worse case scenario, to show a loss. This is the classic 'Goan carb mentality' that you espouse. Mervyn is a professional and makes his living by his wits and his knowledge, instead of being happy for him you aim to pour scorn and aim disparaging remarks. -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmir
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- Mario wrote more twaddle thus: If this were true, we would not see Chimbel in a discussion on Kashmir. Then Bosco inserted Chimbel into the discussion, which had nothing to do with the thread. If there are local zoning laws in Goa this would be news to Digambar Kamath. As we saw with Digambar Kamath's tirade against the local Panchayats, whatever approval process is being used in Goa is not at the Panchayat level, it is at the state level and is what has created the mess in the first place. I only respond to set the record straight. People are entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts. Perhaps Bosco should go back to mentioning Chimbel in a discussion of Kashmir, which would be more typical of his stellar contributions on Goanet. RESPONSE: This early morning entertainment is turning out to be as good as the late night edition. To follow the Gouvenian advice above I ask: Mario, have you found Chimbel on a Goan map yet? Apparently your namesake is the new President-erect of Chimbel and like you, he too ties his hands behind his back when he types email messages to Goanet. Stellar or not, my contributions here do not seek to pull wool over the eyes of Goanetters with pompous falsehoods. And yes, YOU are right, YOU are not entitled to your own facts - Kashmir is a part of India. Next time, please try and stay for more than 10 days in Goa and learn something about the laws of the state instead of firing blanks here..just because it is free!! As an ardent member of your fan-club, let me request you to voluntarily stop this daily tirade of nonsense from your keyboard before you are dispatched to your summer hibernation. Have your Waders at the ready!! - b
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmir
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- Mario wrote: To be accused of not telling the troot by Jose Colaco is like being called ugly by a frog:-)) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 20:44:44 -0400 From: J. Colaco jc [EMAIL PROTECTED] I feel sorry for you that some frog called you ugly. Must be the rust. Mario responds: You don't understand. No one called me ugly. Some guy called Jose who apparently cannot spell said I was not telling the troot. I said this was like being called ugly by a frog which is an ugly mammal. See, this Jose guy regularly accuses people of not telling the troot which is like a frog who goes around calling people ugly. Mario wrote: The Indian sector is called Jammu Kashmir. Jose has been erroneously referring to it as Kashmir. Jose responded: No sector bector. It is a Indian State officially called Jammu Kashmir and colloquially called Kashmir by Kashmiris and other Indians Mario responds: Colloquial, schmolloquial. The discussion was about legalities and official technicalities like autonomy and the US constitution. There is a huge difference between the region called Kashmir, which has Pakistani, Chinese and Indian sectors, and the Indian state of Jammu Kashmir. Not once did you demonstrate that you knew the difference.
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmir
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- My question is Why only refer to KashmirisWhat about the rest of the Indian States? Can Goans buy property in any other state? or is Goa the only state that outsiders can buy properties? What about Goans buying properties in Mumbai...Pune..Rajasthan..Surat..chennai..or where ever Goans have settled in India? Would be plsd to hear from Indian experts in these matters to clear off the doubts of Goans. Edward Verdes Chinchinim./KSA Mario observes: My original comments in this thread were in response to a question by Jane Gillian Rodrigues about why non-Goans can buy property in Goa whereas non-Kashmiris cannot buy property in Kashmir.
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmir
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- For once I agree with Mario. I think some potshots are being taken just to settle other scores. FN -- Sent via BlackBerry® while on the road... http://fn.goa-india.org
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmiri chillies
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- --- Bosco D'Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Heck!! Yet again, it is more likely Mario does not even know where Chimbel is. Give the man a break, not only is he confused.he is lost in Goa and surrounded by Kashmiris, yes some of them from China!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 10:16:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] The man is our caped crusader fighting Goan Catholic casteism. Asked about his own self, he'll not tire of telling you there is a town in Portugal named after his family. Recently he got his Kashimir terrority mixed up with his Kashmiri chillies. He also got his gram sabhas mixed up with garam masala. All this has made for a bad kalchi koddi :-) Mario responds: Along with your continued defense of the caste system, the smoke and mirrors recommendation to rename the status quo that is destroying Goa as the Goa Planning Office and the comical demand that red tape be scarped in Goa, we are now being told about some mythical place called Kashimir terrority that is being confused with Kashmir chillies:-)) But, hey, at least the period of hurling insults at the activists actually making a difference in Goa seems to have passed [Whew!] to be replaced with brown nosing with Bosco and his confusion between Chimbel and Kashmir, not to mention Goanet's resident know-it-all, Jose Colaco, confusing the disputed region of Kashmir with the autonomous Indian state of Jammu Kashmir:-))
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmiri chillies
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But, hey, at least the period of hurling insults at the activists actually making a difference in Goa seems to have passed [Whew!] - Unlike you I don't feel the need to ingratiate myself with activists. If I earn their respect and friendship, it will be on my own steam and not because I caved in to mirror my ideology with theirs. There are a great many people doing their bit for Goa. Some, very quietly and effectively. There are large sections of Goan society that are not represented on Goanet, the shippie that goes on-board for 9 months of his life, the Gulf worker who labours away as a houseboy in some Kuwaiti household, the cook who opens a restaurant in his backyard, the school kid who won't find admission anywhere else besides his village Church school, the housewife who doesn't have an emergency care center to take her child too. These are the people I know from the village I come from. Heck, some of them are even related to me. All of these people are equal shareholders in Goa's future. The dreams of upper-class Goans with access to first class schools may not be the dreams of the deprived. And the dreams of urbanites may not coincide with those that dwell in the deepest villages. I believe all our dreams need expression and more importantly all our dreams need opportunity. selma
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmir
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For once I agree with Mario. I think some potshots are being taken just to settle other scores. jc's response: I agree with Fred Noronha about his agreement with Mario I also agree with potshots.and not the 'other scores' bit. Mario settled the old scores all by himself. He even found the fugetio he spoke about for nearly 4 years. BTW: Don't tell anybody that Goa has Coconut Oil jc
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmir
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- Mario, I find you are not preaching what you profess, It should be Jammu Kashmir, remember:-) From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] My original comments in this thread were in response to a question by Jane Gillian Rodrigues about why non-Goans can buy property in Goa whereas non-Kashmiris cannot buy property in Kashmir. Can they buy in Himachal P.? just asking! or does the state also follow the below... If they cannot, why?? hAVE a nICE dAY Seb While India claims Kashmir as a state under the current status quo, this so-called state is unlike any other state in India because it has been granted autonomy under the Indian constitution, and the entire region, including the part claimed by India, is in dispute and has been since 1948.
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- Mario wrote: But, hey, the beaches in the UK are apparently also like toilets, so the Brits who infest Goa can now feel completely at home:-)) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 21:19:41 +0100 From: Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Person from the rust belt is even more at home, as soon as they see the 'shanty town' on arrival, they feelaaah its like being at home! Mario responds: In fact, most of the poor in the US rust belt live about as well as the middle-class in most of Europe. Unfortunately, Gabe lives in old Blighty, where the beaches are apparently like toilets, so he must feel very much at home when he goes to Goa:-)) Gabe writes: When are you going to apologise for your blunder on Kashmir, you really are on devious fellow, with no moral inhibitions whatsoever. I suppose you have been Googling along looking, for a smidgen to get you off the hook? Mario responds: Based on his typically insulting and irritable comments, which make a mockery of his signature, DEV BOREM KORUM, I think Gabe is really describing himself here. Thankfully, most of his posts are cut and pasted from the internet, with no comment or point that is made. While I could have been more clear in describing Kashmir's disputed situation as an Indian state, I wonder if Gabe even understood that the discussion was about the difference between Goa and Kashmir regarding whether citizens of other Indian states could buy property in these regions. I was correct in describing Kashmir as a disputed territory administered in parts by three different countries, and the Indian sector is officially autonomous under the Indian constitution.
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmir
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- Jose Many thanks for the clarification re the issue surrounding Jane's query about Goans buying land in Kashmir. My own view was akin to that of Mario and Frederick but I do not profess to have much knowledge about Kashmir. Cornel In a response to a simple question from jane gillian rodrigues whether (...) a Goan, can buy land in Kashmir.
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmir
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- 2008/5/21 CORNEL DACOSTA wrote: Jose [1] Many thanks for the clarification re the issue surrounding Jane's query about Goans buying land in Kashmir. [2] My own view was akin to that of Mario and Frederick [3] but I do not profess to have much knowledge about Kashmir. == jc's response: Cornel, re [1] - You are most welcome re [2] - Please do clarify which view of Mario and Frederick is/was 'akin to yours In the context of this 'subject header' Mario clearly has stated that Kashmir was NOT yet an Indian State Frederick said NO such thing. It is my position that Mario is absolutely WRONG. Are you in agreement on this point with Mario? In that case, I submit that you are wrong too. Sure, there are some common points in the posts of Mario and Frederick. Those are not at issue in this subject line. The IMPORTANT point (just in case you missed it) was that Mario was pompously offering to TEACH Jane .when he (Mario) was spectacularly ignorant of the facts himself! You, Cornel, have accepted that you do not profess to 'have much knowledge about Kashmir'. Fine. Mario has attributed his past errors to intelligence failure.after stubbornly maintaining that he was the sole defender of the truth. I expect him to be no less obstinate this time around. His past performance indicate that Facts do not get in the way of Mario's professed Troot'. You (Cornel) are welcome to keep company with his FALSE position that Kashmir is NOT yet an Indian State. jc Xhutes.time to get back to workwhere is my coffee Besides ...my knowledge on this topic has been exhausted
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmir
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- Heck!! Yet again, it is more likely Mario does not even know where Chimbel is. Give the man a break, not only is he confused.he is lost in Goa and surrounded by Kashmiris, yes some of them from China!! There used to be an institution in that charming village that shrinked heads gone flatulent Taka Chimbel gal'la quite amply explained the respective incumbent's state of ...er mind... H. E. Alfred de Tavares, Chacellor, Fraternity of Fools _ Discover the new Windows Vista http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vistamkt=en-USform=QBRE
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmiri chillies
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- --- Bosco D'Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Heck!! Yet again, it is more likely Mario does not even know where Chimbel is. Give the man a break, not only is he confused.he is lost in Goa and surrounded by Kashmiris, yes some of them from China!! - Bosco, Give Mario a break will you? The man is our caped crusader fighting Goan Catholic casteism. Asked about his own self, he'll not tire of telling you there is a town in Portugal named after his family. Recently he got his Kashimir terrority mixed up with his Kashmiri chillies. He also got his gram sabhas mixed up with garam masala. All this has made for a bad kalchi koddi :-) selma
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- 2008/5/20 Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Mario wrote: But, hey, the beaches in the UK are apparently also like toilets, so the Brits who infest Goa can now feel completely at home:-)) Mario responds: In fact, most of the poor in the US rust belt live about as well as the middle-class in most of Europe. Unfortunately, Gabe lives in old Blighty, where the beaches are apparently like toilets, so he must feel very much at home when he goes to Goa:-)) Gabe writes: When are you going to apologise for your blunder on Kashmir, you really are on devious fellow, with no moral inhibitions whatsoever. I suppose you have been Googling along looking, for a smidgen to get you off the hook? RESPONSE: Below my dignity to reply to the claptrap and what Goveia cottoned on to, courtesy of Frederick Noronha. -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmir
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 08:34:47 -0400 From: J. Colaco jc [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mario is INCORRECT. Kashmir IS an Indian State (a State within the Republic of India). BTW: the correct answer to Gillian's query: A Goan or any other non-Kashmiri CANNOT buy land in the Indian State of Kashmir (Art 370 IC). At least until recently, the land laws were slightly different for non-Kashmiri men married to Kashmiri women from what they were for non-Kashmiri women married to Kashmiri men. Mario has attributed his past errors to intelligence failure.after stubbornly maintaining that he was the sole defender of the truth. I expect him to be no less obstinate this time around. His past performance indicate that Facts do not get in the way of Mario's professed Troot'. You (Cornel) are welcome to keep company with his FALSE position that Kashmir is NOT yet an Indian State. Mario responds: To be accused of not telling the troot by Jose Colaco is like being called ugly by a frog:-)) Let us examine this Kashmir that Jose Colaco has been blathering on about for the last few days. The undisputable truth is that the Kashmir that Jose Colaco keeps referring to is a disputed region administered by three different countries, India, Pakistan and China. The Indian sector is called Jammu Kashmir. Jose has been erroneously referring to it as Kashmir. Jammu Kashmir is currently considered a state by India for administrative purposes, whereas it is quite unlike any other state in India because it has been granted autonomy by the Indian constitution. Thus, if Jose Colaco wants to continue pontificating about this state, he should start by referring to it by its correct name, Jammu Kashmir.
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmir
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- Mario Goveia wrote: Quote: While I could have been more clear in my previous comments, Bosco is apparently unfamiliar with the nuances of Kashmir within the context of India and the discussion that was taking place. The discussion was about whether a Goan can buy property in Kashmir like non-Goan Indians can buy property in Goa. I wonder why Bosco left out my next sentence, It is still a disputed territory administered by three different governments, Pakistan, India and China. Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 21:58:10 -0400 From: Bosco D'Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perhaps Mario is also familiar re the nuances of the Goan dispute re Chimbel. While some think it part of Tiswadi, there are some in Salcette claiming Chimbel belongs to them. Heck!! Yet again, it is more likely Mario does not even know where Chimbel is. Give the man a break, not only is he confused.he is lost in Goa and surrounded by Kashmiris, yes some of them from China!! Mario observes: Hanh What is Bosco talking about? My original comments in this thread were in response to a question by Jane Gillian Rodrigues about why non-Goans can buy property in Goa whereas non-Kashmiris cannot buy property in Kashmir. While India claims Kashmir as a state under the current status quo, this so-called state is unlike any other state in India because it has been granted autonomy under the Indian constitution, and the entire region, including the part claimed by India, is in dispute and has been since 1948. In Bosco's new post I looked in vain for any comment that is germane to the topic in this thread.
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- I tried and tried and tried to find one tangible point you might have made. Then I realised this was Mario's post. Why would my expectations be that high? selma I hope u know now ! What can u expect from someone who says: Kashmir is not a part of India!! hAVE a nICE dAY Seb
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- 2008/5/20 Seb dc [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What can u expect from someone who says: Kashmir is not a part of India!! But isn't that the ground reality? As things stand today, Kashmir is disputed and divided across international boundaries. That we would *like it* to be part of India is another issue. As for now, the entire part of what used to be Kashmir isn't! FN
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmir
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- 2008/5/20 Seb dc [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What can u expect from someone who says: Kashmir is not a part of India!! FN responded: But isn't that the ground reality? As things stand today, Kashmir is disputed and divided across international boundaries. == jc's response: With due respect, Seb dc has misquoted Mario. That is not what Mario stated. No reason for Mario to use what FN has written (correctly) to support what he(Mario) has written incorrectly. Individuals like Mario have previously blamed errors on 'intelligence failure'. Possible! (;-) jc
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmir
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- Sorry, but I find JC's gobbledegook in this post impossible to understand.Please can he write more simply and in plain English as to what he is on about? Cornel --- J. Colaco jc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote With due respect, Seb dc has misquoted Mario. That is not what Mario stated. No reason for Mario to use what FN has written (correctly) to support what he(Mario) has written incorrectly. Individuals like Mario have previously blamed errors on 'intelligence failure'. Possible! (;-) jc
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmir
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- FN responded: But isn't that the ground reality? As things stand today, Kashmir is disputed and divided across international boundaries. Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 08:06:38 -0400 From: J. Colaco jc [EMAIL PROTECTED] No reason for Mario to use what FN has written (correctly) to support what he(Mario) has written incorrectly. Individuals like Mario have previously blamed errors on 'intelligence failure'. Possible! (;-) Mario responds: Here we see someone with apparent intelligence failure falsely assert that I have been incorrect on Kashmir without specifying what exactly he is referring to. Shown below are my latest posted statements on Kashmir. I would like Jose to explain what is incorrect about what I have said or how it is different from what Fred wrote: Quote: While I could have been more clear in my previous comments, Bosco is apparently unfamiliar with the nuances of Kashmir within the context of India and the discussion that was taking place. The discussion was about whether a Goan can buy property in Kashmir like non-Goan Indians can buy property in Goa. I wonder why Bosco left out my next sentence, It is still a disputed territory administered by three different governments, Pakistan, India and China. In fact Jammu Kashmir is autonomous under Article 370 of the Indian Constitution. Thus the region does not function like other Indian states including Goa. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir#Post-1947_developments.2C_including_ratification_of_accession Excerpts: The region is divided among three countries in a territorial dispute: Though these regions are in practice administered by their respective claimants, neither India nor Pakistan has formally recognised the accession of the areas claimed by each other. [end of excerpt] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jammu_and_Kashmir#Politics_and_government Excerpt: The Constitution of India grants Jammu and Kashmir special autonomous status as a temporary provision through Article 370. However, some Muslim Kashmiris demand greater autonomy and sovereignty and some even demand independence from India, while some non-Muslims would like to see the state fully integrated into India.
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmir
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- CORNEL DACOSTA wrote: Sorry, but I find JC's gobbledegook in this post impossible to understand.Please can he write more simply and in plain English as to what he is on about? == jc's response: Cornel's Sorry is accepted. please vide infra : --- In a response to a simple question from jane gillian rodrigues whether (...) a Goan, can buy land in Kashmir. [1] Mario Goveia (inter alia) responded: The last time I checked Kashmir was not an Indian STATE yet. [2] Seb dc of Mario: What can u expect from someone who says: Kashmir is not a PART of India!! [3] FN wrote: As things stand today, Kashmir is disputed and divided across international boundaries. [4] Mario now writes: I would like Jose to explain what is incorrect about what I have said or how it is different from what Fred wrote -- jc's response for attention of Mario and anyone who just might have English intelligence failure re [1] Mario is INCORRECT. Kashmir IS an Indian State (a State within the Republic of India). It has a State legislature and sends MPs to the Lok Sabha (Parliament) in New Delhi who have helped form a previous central Govt in Delhi. Just for info ...because of the fractured electorate, the MPs from the State of Kashmir can be king-makers. re [2] Seb dc is quoting Mario INCORRECTLY. That is not what Mario stated. re [3] FN is absolutely CORRECT.but that does NOT make Mario's statement in [1] correct. re [4] I trust that my explanation in simple English ...written slowly for easier comprehension ...is sufficient. BTW: the correct answer to Gillian's query: A Goan or any other non-Kashmiri CANNOT buy land in the Indian State of Kashmir (Art 370 IC). At least until recently, the land laws were slightly different for non-Kashmiri men married to Kashmiri women from what they were for non-Kashmiri women married to Kashmiri men. It is my understanding that non-Kashmiris have bought land in the Pakistani held territory aka 'Azad Kashmir'. But yes you can buy what you want in Kashmir (Lisboa). I prefer their chicken samosas. Simply the best. jc
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet - Kashmir
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- Mario Goveia wrote: Quote: While I could have been more clear in my previous comments, Bosco is apparently unfamiliar with the nuances of Kashmir within the context of India and the discussion that was taking place. The discussion was about whether a Goan can buy property in Kashmir like non-Goan Indians can buy property in Goa. I wonder why Bosco left out my next sentence, It is still a disputed territory administered by three different governments, Pakistan, India and China. RESPONSE: Perhaps Mario is also familiar re the nuances of the Goan dispute re Chimbel. While some think it part of Tiswadi, there are some in Salcette claiming Chimbel belongs to them.while at the same time, the maverick Pandurang Fernandes has declared Chimbel an independent Republic from Goa. Heck!! Yet again, it is more likely Mario does not even know where Chimbel is. Give the man a break, not only is he confused.he is lost in Goa and surrounded by Kashmiris, yes some of them from China!! Here Mario, let me clue you in re your messages to Goanet: May 17, 2008 - 6 messages from you May 18, 2008 - 3 messages from you May 19, 2008 - 5 messages from you May 20, 2008 - 2 messages so far..5hrs left in the day and you know how many are pending Please help yourselfNo, I don't mean seek nirvana at the moderators mailbox. - b
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Dear Frederick, The photograph was published by the Herald a week ago. A shack owner in Candolim had evidently closed shop at the end of the reason but had not done a perfect job of clearing up - perhaps he was not aware of the Saligao dump! You can check the photo at the Herald site: http://oheraldo.in/newsimages/5_9_200871327AM_4695993951.jpg Best wishes Eddie === -Original Message- From: Frederick [FN] Noronha * As far as I could see, the tourists who were being squeezed over resident permits and land deals (and who were rightly upset about it), got mixed up with the issue of Goa being turned into a toilet (and a possibly-rigged photo of a discarded commode put out on Candolim beach... very strange site, hardly plausable though it makes for a good and sensational photo!)
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- There is no doubt that UK's beaches, or some of them at least are dirty, but this can be said of many tropical beaches too, not just UK or Goa. The tens of millions of tons of rubbish that has been spilled into the seas by ships, barges crooks who dump the city's garbage from China to Japan, from Indonesia to Australia / New Zealand, from USA to all areas of Europe, from Africa South America, the whole world has used the sea as a dumping ground for many years. We are now witnessing the deaths of thousands of sea turtles, sharks and other marine wildlife who either mistake the floating garbage (plastic bags are the worse offenders which the turtles mistake for their favourite food, jellyfish). Now the sea has churned up plastics of all sorts, all now returning after 25 years or so floating about in the sea, brought in by the currents, to the seashore. And we (all nations) still do not clean up after ourselves. There are dedicated people who VOLUNTEER their time energies in collecting these plastic other rubbish that the tide leaves behind. Long gone are the odd coco de mer or the odd piece of wood from a sunken ship. The days of a message in a bottle have gone too, its all dirt plastic, stuff that cannot biodegrade that is hurting the marine life, and of course making it impossible for clean beaches, even in some of the most expensive and idyllic places on earth, find plastic yoghurt containers, plastic cutlery bags on their beaches. John Monteiro -- George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Goans are too polite to call the UK a toilet http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/855233.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1486664.stm http://environment.uk.msn.com/photos/gallery.aspx?cp-documentid=8025423 Regards, George
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- --- Eddie Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Frederick, The photograph was published by the Herald a week ago. -- Dear Eddie, It is all the more shocking now to realise that the photo actually appeared on a Goan newspaper and didn't originate from a British expat or a Goan expat. Infact, here's another website every NRI should check out. http://oheraldo.in/ The website of the Oheraldo, the Goan newspaper of the sons of the soil. The one that carries all the articles about the mendacity of builder. After you've read the articles, count how many real-estate companies are advertised on the site. Three for land (ACRON, Carneiro Builders and BF Homes) and four of those, elitist, land-guzzling hotels (Prestige Holiday Resorts, Longuinhos, Bambolin Beach Resort, and Delmon). The two sections are rather interestingly captioned HERALD HOMES FOR YOU and HERALD HOTEL PARTNERS. To make matters worse all models used to advertise are Caucasian. So thanks, Goans in Goa for chastising expat Goans, and calling into question our loyalty at every point. Goans have no integrity whatsoever when it comes to hawking land to the public, that too a European public. Rob from Peter and give to Paul and then rob from Paul again but who is to blame. Those expat Goans. selma
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Wonder who was using this shack's toilet then? 2008/5/19 Eddie Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dear Frederick, The photograph was published by the Herald a week ago. A shack owner in Candolim had evidently closed shop at the end of the reason but had not done a perfect job of clearing up - perhaps he was not aware of the Saligao dump! You can check the photo at the Herald site: http://oheraldo.in/newsimages/5_9_200871327AM_4695993951.jpg -- Frederick FN Noronha * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org * Phone +91-832-2409490
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- I saw JoeGoaUK's videos. Well, it is easy to spot such activities in Goa and elsewhere. It brings one fact clearly in the open -- the need for urinals and toilets in cities. But another problem will arise -- how to keep them clean. To keep them clean and well maintained there will be need for more municipal staff. More hiring will be needed. More hiring means more money to be paid out of municpal coffers. So, it is a roundabout. The beaches are places where the need for toilets, urinals, showers are urgent. If tourism has to encouraged than the government/municipalities must be encouraged to start hygiene reforms. Though we knew it for years, Nirad Chaudhari's mentioned of Goans habit of defecating on the shores in Panjim (I think) in his Continent of Circe had Goans riled against the writer. Is not Mumbai an open toilet? Can one avoid seeing naked bums along the tracks especially when one travels on the local trains early morning? The videos at least had the people doing their jobs in the shadows. If someone (particularly the poor) is struck by the urgency to answer nature's call in Panjim or any other city, what can the person do but seek the solace of a shore or under the tree away from prying eyes? It's bad but it's not so bad considering Goa's going the drain on many fronts. Eugene
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Hi Eugene I am pretty sure that like Chaudri in the Continent of Circe, Naipaul in his novel An Area of Darkness, (that so upset so many Indians), refers to the point that Indians defecate almost anywhere in India. However, part of the reason for this is the marked absence of public toilets particularly in urban settings---a point made endless times in the media over past decades. I recall it was equally bad under the Portuguese, then in Goa for some 451 years, when large numbers of Goans had to stay overnight or sometimes longer at the docks with barely a toilet in sight, to catch a boat from Marmagoa (the name normally used then), to East Africa. Cornel --- Eugene Correia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I saw JoeGoaUK's videos. Well, it is easy to spot such activities in Goa and elsewhere. It brings one fact clearly in the open -- the need for urinals and toilets in cities. But another problem will arise -- how to keep them clean...
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- I am so pleased that Eugene Correia and Cornel DaCosta have both mentioned that the LACK of toilet facilities may be the cause of people having to relieve themselves wherever they can. I too think that this is at the nub of the problem. If there were more facilities, surely folk would use them, as they do in every other part of the world where such facilities are in evidence. I think this is the issue to be addressed: the lack of public toilets. Human nature and human needs being what they are, this situation would arise anywhere in the world. In the UK, in urban areas there are public facilities aplenty. These are all clear signposted. And in the countyside where this may not be the case, people are generally within easy easy reach of their homes, pubs and hotels (most allow you to use their facilities) motorway stops, so there is rarely an urgency which forces the use of the countryside to relieve oneself However having said this, there are areas in the UK which are also polluted by folk who answer the call of nature willy-nilly - so to speak, and no pun intended. I think if Goa should address the question of a lack of public facilites, and perhaps a lack of civic pride, may be we will be on our way to sorting this situation Luisa
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is where I can be found on the same side as Gadgil and Rajan, but I want economic development to continue, but only in a manner that fits the Goan history, culture, ambience and environment. Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 10:14:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] Agree with Gadgil and Rajan? Gadgil's (personally, I love the man), positions are always in complete concurrence with positions of the Community party of India. Anti-modernization, anti-privatisation, anti-globalisation and anti-west. Rajan, is presently in consultation with the Chinese to build another Great Wall around Goa. Mario responds: With love like yours, Gadgil does not need any enemies:-)) Besides, I am not aware of anything called the Community party of India. Is this something Gadgil has started? I see you are still doggedly trying to deflect the discussion and distort the facts - but we have your number by now. Besides, Gadgil also has you pegged as the Queen of the Red Herrings who will say almost anything to obfuscate a discussion, as we are also seeing in your comments here. Where I stand with Gadgil and Rajan is in their effort to STOP the ugly developments, many approved through fraudulent and corrupt means, because this would give someone with more than half a brain in Goa a chance to implement local zoning laws. Once the ugly developments are built or hillsides denuded, nothing can be done. You, on the other hand, support the status quo that has produced the mess in the first place, want to cut out the local villagers directly affected by the ugly developments, and do not have a single sensible or workable suggestion on how to address the problem. Selma wrote: What is really worrying me is your endorsement of Wendell's pie-in-the-sky ideas for Goa. Is this the best Goa has to offer in terms of economic intelligentsia? One singer, who wants to turn Goa into a state parK, bring out the rhinos right now, and a dress-marker who wants the clock turned back on Goan villages making them 16th century feudal estates. Mario observes: Here we see more diversionary comments supporting the status quo and personally insulting those who are trying to stem the rot in Goa, without offering a single sensible or workable suggestion on how to address the problem. In the meantime, besides trying to insult Wendell, whose dresses you probably could not afford to buy, you have nothing to say about his very specific and practical suggestions. In a previous post you wrote, I don't mean to undermine the work carried out by activists in halting the devastation of Goa. Nor do I presume to understand what the need of the hour is in Goa. You were absolutely right in your second sentence above as you are proving with every subsequent post, while you are also proving you did not mean a word you said in your first sentence. Selma wrote: Who decides what's elitist and what's not in a democracy? Will the housing needs of local people be resolved if this project is shelved? Or do these needs warrant addressal separate from this issue? Mario observes: Once again you are a) demonstrating that you do not understand what the need of the hour is in Goa, because most of the ugly developments are not addressing the housing needs of the local people, and, b) you are also demonstrating that you have not understood a word I have written, which is that development should continue, as long as it is done in a manner that is compatible with the history, culture, architecture and environment which would preserve Goa's unique ambience.
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- 2008/5/19 Eddie Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dear Frederick, The photograph was published by the Herald a week ago. A shack owner in Candolim had evidently closed shop at the end of the season but had not done a perfect job of clearing up - perhaps he was not aware of the Saligao dump! Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 14:04:15 +0530 From: Frederick [FN] Noronha * Wonder who was using this shack's toilet then? Mario responds: This shack's toilet is now a hole in the sand - just like in the good old days:-)) But, hey, the beaches in the UK are apparently also like toilets, so the Brits who infest Goa can now feel completely at home:-))
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see you are still doggedly trying to deflect the discussion and distort the facts - but we have your number by now. Besides, Gadgil also has you pegged as the Queen of the Red Herrings who will say almost anything to obfuscate a discussion, as we are also seeing in your comments here. Mario, I tried and tried and tried to find one tangible point you might have made. Then I realised this was Mario's post. Why would my expectations be that high? selma
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet and comparing apples (revised)
Sweden which has problems of its own is lecturing other countries! If these diplomats don't like the places they find themselves in - go home. Fix your own Swedish problems like integration of immigrants in its third largest city, alcoholism, sexually transmitted diseases, teenage drop-out, suicide rates, etc. Are the Swedes trying to deflect from their many problems by pointing at others? Regards, George --- Alfred de Tavares [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My dear boró dotor guys, Since you chaps are digressing far from the topic above, ie toilet associated attributes, I post bellow a 6-month old article that will solidarise with 'stinky' Goa... SWEDISH DIPLOMATS IN DELHI FIND INDIANS DIRTY STOCKHOLM, WEDNESDAY, DEC 19 (IANS) -- The Swedish Embassy in Delhi in their annual, albeit classified, report to the Swedish foreign ministry has, unequivocally, stated that the Indians' personal hygiene is very much neglected, reports, in a scoop, the Swedish government's official gazette, Riksdag Departmentet, RD (Parliament Government) in their latest issue, Dec 17, on the eve of Mr Vayalar Ravi's,
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
2008/5/19 Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Mario responds: This shack's toilet is now a hole in the sand - just like in the good old days:-)) But, hey, the beaches in the UK are apparently also like toilets, so the Brits who infest Goa can now feel completely at home:-)) COMMENT: Person from the rust belt is even more at home, as soon as they see the 'shanty town' on arrival, they feelaaah its like being at home! When are you going to apologise for your blunder on Kashmir, you really are on devious fellow, with no moral inhibitions whatsoever. I suppose you have been Googling along looking, for a smidgen to get you off the hook? -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet and comparing apples (revised)
Hello Alfredo Irmao, Now that you have conveyed how Swedish diplomats comment on their India postings, we must now hear Rajaram Balanmanian on his two year stint at the Indian embassy in Stockholm. Dear Undersecretary, These Swedes are awful people, saar. They drink too much and get too bawdy when they do. Their European neighbors know about this and bars in France are dotted with signs saying Dogs and Swedes not allowed. They eat the grossest fish, mostly herrings and kippers. It is served cold and the stink that comes from one's breath makes my wife routinely put me in the doghouse. Not that I voluntarily eat the fish. It's just that Anna our commercial assistant who is such a hot item will insist we eat this when we dine on official business (wink, wink). Talking of Anna, che che che. The things she makes me do are best left unsaid. I like her charms maan, but the amount of hardware I have to negotiate to get to the best parts almost make me like to eat with spoon and fork. And that as you well know, to us Indians, is a sin. The thing that gets me without fail is that they do not use water like we do. It's dry tissue all the way and on their particularly difficult digestive days, one must never attempt to sit behind them. The smells will remind you of fish gone bad on Chennai streets during municipal strike days. So Sir, less pay or not, I would definitely opt for Ougagdougu if given the choice of my next posting. Sincerely, Rajaram. On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 6:12 PM, Alfred de Tavares [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My dear boró dotor guys, Since you chaps are digressing far from the topic above, ie toilet associated attributes, I post bellow a 6-month old article that will solidarise with 'stinky' Goa... SWEDISH DIPLOMATS IN DELHI FIND INDIANS DIRTY STOCKHOLM, WEDNESDAY, DEC 19 (IANS) -- The Swedish Embassy in Delhi in their annual, albeit classified, report to the Swedish foreign ministry has, unequivocally, stated that the Indians' personal hygiene is very much neglected, reports, in a scoop, the Swedish government's official gazette, Riksdag Departmentet, RD (Parliament Government) in their latest issue, Dec 17, on the eve of Mr Vayalar Ravi's, the Minister of Overseas Indian Affairs, visit to Sweden. The nearest, in offalctory offensiveness, to India, lies Burkina Faso: There the poor Swedish envoys are quatered next the nation's largest garbage dump! Alfred de Tavares
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Irmao Fred, I understand the situation in Goa, the resignation and the following picture brings tears to my eyes and ones mind goes blank thinking of Filomena's situation. Cut to Calangute where Filomena is lamenting the rapid changes happening around her house http://www.parrikar.org/images/samples/filomena.jpg That said, I think we are the victims of our own success, success meaning Goa as a hot-sell tourist destination. We laughed merrily and got lazy as Goa was discovered by the 'hippis', asked everyone what they thought of our Goa, and now we are the California of the sub-continent. As an earlier post responded to a tiatrist, its time for a reality check (no, no, no, not to flex your muscles and be an enforcer/henchmen, a popular occupation in Goa these days/our 420 culture/economy), but to wake up and shake oneself. Apologies if I make this sound simple, but it ain't. One can lay blame; I would blame the religious for misleading but that won't hep. Their crime will haunt them in due time. But the simple truth is, we needed a shake up and this is it; we can either sit down and throw out hands up and plead victim or get out there, get smart, improve and learn...learnand watch...and learn! Please read Jerome's post which has invaluable advice! Jerome Coutinho: I gone thru Prince Jacob complain against Goan Theatre owner that they are refusing to telecast Konkani Films in Goan Cine Complexes. Prince Jacob have to work hard to improve the quality of his acting and direction. Which fool can afford to make loss for himself by telecasting stupid jolly villager's movie. On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am not a foreigner in Goa, someone staying here to earn my living, or someone who opted to migrate here for a higher salary. Nor am I here to escape the unfriendly weather. This is the reality of my personal finances. That doesn't mean, I hold some hapless person responsible for it. Goans cannot afford fish either, does that mean we stop exporting fish?
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet and comparing apples (revised)
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- How many of you guys don't have toilets in your homes, or don't feel the need for being concerned about sanitation? How many of your guys don't believe that the 'clean' tourists who have been coming to Goa all these years have not contributed significantly to adding to our garbage and stink load in Goa? (Welcome along to a visit to the Saligao-Calangute hillock, where garbage from Calangute gets dumped!) And how many of you'll don't believe that the photo at [http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=536195page=2] together with the loaded heading for the thread reflects as much the bias of tourists affected in their real estate deals, as did the bias of likening Goa to paradise when they first discovered it and got 'cheap' deals here? While on the topic, some sanitation facts (it's only in India that we have a toilet museum [http://www.toiletmuseum.com/] and need we have a lot of work to do on this front, while not looking down on 'toilets'): * Proper sanitation is a seemingly mundane thing that most people in the 'developed' world take for granted. * At least 2.6 billion people -- some 41 per cent of the global population -- do not have access to latrines or any sort of basic sanitation facilities. * Millions resultantly suffer from a wide range of preventable illnesses, such as diarrhoea, which claim thousands of lives each day, primarily young children. * Every 20 seconds, a child dies as a result of poor sanitation. That's 1.5 million preventable deaths each year. [Source theUNWorksinIndia, monthly newsletter of the UN Information Centre, New Delhi] So please take your sanitation seriously! Even if Goa has become a toilet. --FN PS: If you thought all toilets were bad, and dirty, please pay Rs 2 and visit the one at the Panjim ferry jetty.
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- My dear Gilbert, Looks like this is going to run and run as is your wont. I would have liked to reply with one line but need more space 1. It is wishful thinking to suggest I apologised. I did anything but. 2. You are right that there is a fire outside the theatre so I went in and shouted Fire 3. It should not take a genius to work out that to participate in the Expats discussion forum, you need to register. Take a look at the site and work it out. I am not capable of breastfeeding! 4. So now Scarletts mother should accept the death of her daughter as natural? Awaiting your apology. Best wishes for a speedy recovery, Eddie From: Gilbert Lawrence Hi Eddie, You sound defensive in your post below. It was an apology, though not quite. I guess your machismo is in the way... Your explanation is similar to 'there was a fire outside the theater and I just brought it in into the theater'... I would appreciate if you could post the e-mail address of the web... So I am not sure why she is complaining so loudly. Something akin to Scarlett's mother...
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet and breastfeeding
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Eddie Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote My dear Gilbert, 3. I am not capable of breastfeeding! == My dear Eddie, I always recommend that one can breast feed as long as there are no teeth (which can bite). As Gilbert of the Amchi Khobor fame usually has no teeth (in the arguments he makes on GoaNet), I'd say that Breast-Feeding is not necessarily contraindicated. Of course, one could offer alternate feeds as in Lactose-Free Cow's milk or a Soy based formula. Often times, the inability to digest lactose causes one to emit an inordinate amount of gas. Changing to a lactose free formula might be of assistance. I note that Gilbert has not (yet) repeated his previous advice to the 'Brits' i.e. just Take Up Indian citizenship. It has come to my knowledge that Prejident Pandurang Phernandis runs a non-plagiaristic possro where Brits can do just that..'Take Up Indian citizenship' On this pleasant Sunday, I was intrigued by this new gem from Gilbert: Why cannot the Brits just accept responsibility for making a poor decision in the first place. Perhaps, Gilbert will care to advise us why he thinks the decision was a poor one - in the first place? He may wish to refer to his 'Amchi Khobor' book for an answer. Gilbert quoting from his own book would not be considered as plagiarising. (:-) jc
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet and comparing apples (revised)
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- My responses to Gilbert are interspersed..jc Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jose baba, 1: Your response to my post would suggest, you agree with the rest of my post. jc: FALSE. I do NOT normally read all your ramblings. Besides, I have this bit at the back of my mind about your postings. I do not know which of your written material is original and which is plagiarised. So ...I skim through your posts. Please do not give me the credit of reading your entire posting - I usually do NOT. = 2: As regards your points below, you are 'catching the pig by the tail'. If the Savages cannot / will not take Indian citizenship, (unlike the vast majority of Goans in UK who are British citizens) she should not make the comparison. jc: TRUE. She is a Savage. But, just because she makes a nonsensical statement, does not mean you shouldor Should you? = 3: As regards your other points, Indian citizens cannot even step on British soil for a few hours, (in transit), forget about having a five-year permanent tourist-stay visa and buying property in the UK. jc: NOT entirely TRUE. Indian citizens CAN obtain transit and visitors visa to the UKAND ...Indian citizens CAN buy property in the UK, and many do ..all the time. = 4: Your own place of residence, (Bahamas - British colony), there are a lot of restrictions on tourists staying and buying property. A foreigner can only apply to be a permanent resident or buy property if they have and are prepared to invest more that half a million US dollars. jc: TRUE but with a proviso. The funds will have to be 'clean' and the police record without problems. There is significant co-operation with the US on these matters. Having said that NOT related to the Savage issue. As far as I know ...She bought property in India. As far as I know, ONLY Indian laws are operative in India. Which law did she break? = 5: Like Britain, even Bahamas will accept the bahile, but only creme-de-la-creme. Yet Goa / India cannot do that. jc: TRUE and FALSE. True about Britain and the Bahamas. False about India/Goa. It is up to the Indian Parliament to legislate for India. = 6: I need to compliment Ms. Savage for not labeling Goa a toilet. This is something that the Brit-Goans have done by using the line as the title to the thread on Goanet. jc: YOUR CHOICE. I have No compliments to offer Ms Savage. I am NOT a Brit-Goan. But, if I find evidence (photographic or other) of Goa's Public Property (like beaches, walkways, gardens etc) being used for public Micturation and Defeacation by individuals (be they migrants or not), I will have NO hesitation in calling Goa a Toilet. jc
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- 2008/5/18 Eddie Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2. You are right that there is a fire outside the theatre so I went in and shouted Fire By any chance, did you shout fire outside the wrong theatre? :-) As far as I could see, the tourists who were being squeezed over resident permits and land deals (and who were rightly upset about it), got mixed up with the issue of Goa being turned into a toilet (and a possibly-rigged photo of a discarded commode put out on Candolim beach... very strange site, hardly plausable though it makes for a good and sensational photo!) I think we all owe an apology to toilets... for under-rating and trivialising their importance! Let's begin by making amends by recognising the work of Sulabh International. And Dr Bideshwar Pathak, the founder of the sanitation movement. Biharis can be smart and relevant too... regardless of what Rajan Parrikar continually suggests about Indian brutes (sorry in advance if I got the quote wrong). Sulabh International Social Service Organization - 2 visits - May 8 The largest nationally and internationally recognised pan-India social service outfit with 35000 volunteers on the rolls who work to promote human rights, ... www.sulabhinternational.org/ Rgds, FN
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is where I can be found on the same side as Gadgil and Rajan, but I want economic development to continue, but only in a manner that fits the Goan history, culture, ambience and environment. Dear vodlo irmao Mario, At least there was one thing we could always count on, that being, some US-styled Republican spiel would make its way onto Goanet. Now, even you are being an ideological tart :-) Agree with Gadgil and Rajan? Gadgil's (personally, I love the man), positions are always in complete concurrence with positions of the Community party of India. Anti-modernization, anti-privatisation, anti-globalisation and anti-west. Rajan, is presently in consultation with the Chinese to build another Great Wall around Goa. What is really worrying me is your endorsement of Wendell's pie-in-the-sky ideas for Goa. Is this the best Goa has to offer in terms of economic intelligentsia? One singer, who wants to turn Goa into a state parK, bring out the rhinos right now, and a dress-marker who wants the clock turned back on Goan villages making them 16th century feudal estates. What are we going to have next? Rain-water harvesting by keeping the bispot under the thatched roof? Come on, this is 21st century India. We are part of the fastest, growing economy in the world, and we want to duck and take cover instead of taking advantage? If you want to read a solid third point of view, which sees what is happening in Goa from a different perspective, then access Philip Thomas' posts. Unfortunately he seems to have disappeared from the scene. As if to prove my point, this post was forwarded today on Goanet. I quote below: BOYCOTT RICHMONDE PARK Because of its exhorbitant price range and its elitist lifestyle it is not a project that solves the housing needs of local people. Boycott a project because it is elitist? Surely, that's not a reason to boycott something in a democracy. It's reason to hold the government accountable for ensuring the apartment complex manages their own water supply, through eco-friendly water-harvesting measures. It's reason to ensure that electricity usage is minimal with energy saving devices installed. I currently live in such a development, where my water refuses to heat after a certain time. Who decides what's elitist and what's not in a democracy? Will the housing needs of local people be resolved if this project is shelved? Or do these needs warrant addressal separate from this issue? Come on Mario, where's that Republican gone? selma
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet and comparing apples (revised)
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- My dear boró dotor guys, Since you chaps are digressing far from the topic above, ie toilet associated attributes, I post bellow a 6-month old article that will solidarise with 'stinky' Goa... SWEDISH DIPLOMATS IN DELHI FIND INDIANS DIRTY STOCKHOLM, WEDNESDAY, DEC 19 (IANS) -- The Swedish Embassy in Delhi in their annual, albeit classified, report to the Swedish foreign ministry has, unequivocally, stated that the Indians' personal hygiene is very much neglected, reports, in a scoop, the Swedish government's official gazette, Riksdag Departmentet, RD (Parliament Government) in their latest issue, Dec 17, on the eve of Mr Vayalar Ravi's, the Minister of Overseas Indian Affairs, visit to Sweden. Such reports are sent in regularly by our embassies and consulates around the world on conditions obtaining locally, a very close aid to Carl Bildt, the Swedish minister for foreign affairs, told IANS, on sternest conditions of anonymity. However, it is very rare...I should say quite unprecedented, that such undiplomatic language is used in diplomatic parlance. The reporting diplomat must have, indeed, suffered very traumatizing and continuous experiences. Just one or two offences would hardly cause such poignant reaction. RD journalist, Anders Orrenius, wrily comments: Deplorable personal hygiene and over-sweetened breakfast-flakes. When Swedish embassies report home concerning conditions in stations-countries they tend to use something altogether different from diplomatic idiom. Neighbouring Pakistan fares far better, reports RD, with only some objection to a local flora and nothing to report offensively about the local fauna: In Islamabad, reports an apparently sore-tried Swedish envoy: One suffers a high degree of allergy due to the undue predominance of mullbery trees in the city. While Kabul, Bagdad and Jerusalem top the list of dangerous places to be posted in, Riyad scares the s--t out of the Swedes with their horrendously poisonous snakes paying them uninvited home-visits. According to RD, every year the Swedish foreign ministry sends out a questionaire to their embassies to compile information about the living conditions in the stations-areas around the world. Based on thisgathered information the annual sanction of the respective perks is fixed. In all official matters, explains Anders Orrenius, the diplomats tend to paint as rosy a picture as they possibly can, of the country they are posted to, but in this case they act totally the opposite. They spare no efforts to highlight the negative aspects as exageratedly as possible in order to receive the more inflated benefits. None other come even close to India. To travel around the various distant cities is also often fraught with much misery: In Cairo the taxis bleed them quite mercilessly while in Ciudad Mexico they pinch their bottoms and breats with equal lack of mercy in the sardinishly packed public conveyances. Materially, Algeria and Nigeria stand to lose a bit: While in the former, their sole 1940-vintage golf course is most dismally maintained, in the latter, the Swedes are warned that travelling in this part of Africa has an extremely limited recreations' value. In Khartoun the diplomats complain of inedible fruit. China's offence is far too many cycles. The Ougadogouan restaurants pose risk for stomach wellbeing. In Pristina the garbage cans lack lids. In Honduras the breakfast cheese is recycled and, manifesting their opulence in sugar, the breakfast flakes are far over-sweetened... and, so on and on to Zimbanve, where Mugabe daily threatens our man there with extinction but not with stink. The nearest, in offalctory offensiveness, to India, lies Burkina Faso: There the poor Swedish envoys are quatered next the nation's largest garbage dump! Alfred de Tavares Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 08:56:13 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet and comparing apples (revised) My responses to Gilbert are interspersed..jc Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jose baba, 1: Your response to my post would suggest, you agree with the rest of my post. jc: FALSE. I do NOT normally read all your ramblings. Besides, I have this bit at the back of my mind about your postings. I do not know which of your written material is original and which is plagiarised. So ...I skim through your posts. Please do not give me
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- 2008/5/14 Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED]: There is this feeling that Goans in Goa cannot afford to buy property in their own land. Well, NRI Goans cannot afford to buy property in Goa either. Nor can I afford to buy property in New York or London or Paris. I am not a foreigner in Goa, someone staying here to earn my living, or someone who opted to migrate here for a higher salary. Nor am I here to escape the unfriendly weather. This is the reality of my personal finances. That doesn't mean, I hold some hapless person responsible for it. Goans cannot afford fish either, does that mean we stop exporting fish? Check the debate about fish in the 'sixties and 'seventies. When fishing was mechanised (with help from Scandinavia, and to the detriment and destruction of the traditional fishermen -- remember the Ramponkar movement?) we were told interesting stories. For one, we were told that the mechanisation of fishing would improve the protein intake of the people of Goa. Today, all one sees is refrigerated large trucks ferrying the catch to Mangalore (for processing and onward transport mainly overseas). Or hotel buyers which don't even wait for the catch to enter the market. When a bureaucrat was telling us about the wonder-potential of shrimp farming in Goa many years ago, he told us the price (in dollars) per kilo. Who can afford it here? he said nonchalantly, when asked whether it would be primarily for exports. I suggest you see the shrimp-less-think-more campaign: There are things that we have to come to terms with, and solutions that we have to seek within the framework of a just and equitable system. Just making laws as we go along, refusing to be part of a global community, placing blame where none belongs and embracing short-term solutions to long-term problems, is what is primarily wrong with Goa today. Chus, selma -- Frederick FN Noronha * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org * Phone +91-832-2409490 Cell +91-9970157402 (sometimes out of range) http://www.youtube.com/user/fredericknoronha
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- --- Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ à¥à¤°à¥à¤¡à¤°à¤¿ ठनà¥à¤° à¥à¤¨à¥à¤¯à¤¾ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Check the debate about fish in the 'sixties and 'seventies. When fishing was mechanised (with help from Scandinavia, and to the detriment and destruction of the traditional fishermen -- Today, all one sees is refrigerated large trucks ferrying the catch to Mangalore (for processing and onward transport mainly overseas). - Dear FN, I had fully intended my last post to be my last post on the subject but I couldn't let this Marxist red-herring of yours about protecting traditional fishermen, go unchallenged. Mechanised fishing changed what to the detriment of traditional fishermen? You mean, it changed the fact that many of them got rich by buying trawlers, setting up manufacturing units and exporting the shrimp? You mean it changed the fact that it created employment not just in fishing, but also in packing and canning? Or that it brought respectability to people who previously were disparagingly called Khairin and almost treated as outcasts? Did mechanised fishing ruin Goa? Goans may complain about the price of fish in the market, but given the spurt in population in recent times are sure your kasti-clad rapoinkars with hand-woven raipons would supply enough to keep the price down? Or would some sort of state sponsored mechanism ensure that the price remains low, thereby creating a successful black market? I love it when Marxism wants to speak for and protect the small poor traditional guy. Marxist ideology is the result of misguided elitist intellectuals. All that the little guy wants is a chance to compete in a free and equitable market. Selma
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Eddie My answer to this is NO, this couple who abided by all the rules, purchased a house, renovated it ( the land attached to it, I believe was a garden) but then after EIGHT years were told they would no longer qualify for this 5-year rolling visa, but instead be offered 6-monthly visas their house would be confiscated then auctioned off. My answer to this remains NO, they have not been treated well, at all. But I would also not feel bitter towards the Goans who live work, own property businesses in the UK as this is NOT their fault ask this couple to please refrain from starting anything that may well cause racial tension here. Its the politicians and the law-makers, corrupt or not, that are responsible for this debacle, not the man in the street, (or woman) of any colour, creed (or status)... Whilst writing I would also like to mention that Barnabe has asked that we do not use this subject line, I feel he is offended by the title, I tend to agree with him, perhaps a different subject line ought to be introduced, this one has been done to death, I hope.. John Monteiro Eddie Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We know Goa has become a toilet thanks the photos from Rajan and JoeGoaUk. I would like to know if those who are critical of the expat investment in Goa, and that includes FN, Floriano and Jane Rodrigues, have read Michelle Savage's article. Also, could they please let us know if they feel that she is being treated fairly. A straightforward yes or no please! George Pinto has obviously read the letter but does not answer the question. Nor is he able to recognise rhetoric. To read the Michelle Savage letter see http://oheraldo.in/pagedetails.asp?nid=3950cid=13 - it is the last letter on the page. For the original Goa has become a Toilet post see http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=536195 Is the confiscation of properties by the Goa Government moral? legal? Eddie Fernandes -
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- 2008/5/17 Eddie Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I would like to know if those who are critical of the expat investment in Goa, and that includes FN, Floriano and Jane Rodrigues, have read Michelle Savage's article. Also, could they please let us know if they feel that she is being treated fairly. A straightforward yes or no please! Yes. And please tell me: what has the title Goa has become a toilet (with a capital T at that) got to do with the property and visa problems that tourists are currently facing? Or, is any issue a good-enough beating stick when the deal isn't simply good? FN
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- I dont think there is an issue here, there is no way that any Goan is going to lose their right of abode, to work carry on as they have done, unless as you say, they have broken the law. That applies wherever you are, in Goa, or UK or anywhere else in the world. I am more concerned that the backlash of racial tensions the deaths of those who have been highlighted in the press will cause not only lack of tourists from UK other European countries to Goa (hooray say some of you, until the bills need to be paid), but neighbours taking it upon themselves to begin some violence against the Goan next door, for something he or she or the family has nothing whatsoever to do with the case. I again plead with this couple, you may have been ousted from Goa for reasons we are not toally au fait with, only by what you have said, appears to be totally beyond contempt as far as I am concerned, but I do not want to see ANY RACIAL AGGREVATION here in the UK. We are all trying to keep it a multi-cultural as possible, mixed race families by their tens of thousands live in peace and harmoney, including many areas which prefer segregation have managed to live separately without too much tension. Without going into minute details on every case, we have many areas in the UK where Muslims have whole streets areas to themselves, safe in the knowledge that they are with friends, relatives love their community as it is, the same applies to Sikhs, Chinese, yes, even Goan people. My wife is brown-skinned but in the bad past, has been called a Paki (she is not of the Muslim faith but any brown-skinned person is a Paki, which is a detremental word and is as bad as calling an Afro-Caribbean the n word, very disgusting), but when the whites get their hackles up and are treated badly, they react in the only way they can, by racially abusing, and violence against the brown-skinned person. But please, keep a clear mind on this, this case is just probably one of many yet to follow, all very bad for race relations in this (UK) country possibly beyond. It was not very long ago that a young man from Goa, a sailor, was killed in a racially-motivated attack here in the UK. It was a very sad day for the UK when this happened, we were all aghast but also the hurt for the Goan people, not to mention his Uncle, a priest in the USA, his mother father and his relatives in Goa. His murderers were jailed, but to what end? A family lost their son, forever. The parents of the attackers have also lost their children. Everyone is grieving there, we do not need more screams in the middle of the night from mothers fathers, brothers sisters because there are no winners once the attacks begin.. Fight your case but keep the general population out of it, please. Dont tar feather the whole Goan nation (of whichever creed), with this, its not their fault, personally. John Montiero George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michelle Savage's article is wrong on many fronts, for example:.. 1. Goans in the UK have migrated LEGALLY, and cannot be deprived of their property rights. If any Goan in the UK has done anything illegal, they must face justice. It could be a law and order..2. Michelle wants to return 60,000 Goans to India...Regards, George - Michelle Savage, UK...Confiscate properties of UK Goans and deport them We want to say that we wished we had never heard of Goa and had never visited India. The whole experience makes me want to constantly cry, and I have been prescribed anti-depressants, something that never happened in the past. -
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet and comparing apples to apples
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To compare apples to apples, Ms. Savage and her husband could do like so many immigrants and permanent settlers do - give up their British citizenship and take up Indian citizenship. == jc's response: 'Take up' Indian citizenship . on the basis of? Curious brand of Apple Sauce !. jc PS: Have ALL Indians who have purchased property in the UK given up their Indian citizenship and taken up British citizenship? What about in the US? PS 2: Could Gilbert please advise us of the 'many immigrants and permanent settlers' who have given up 'their British citizenship and take up Indian citizenship'? PS3: Can a born Briton ever lose his British Citizenship - even if he gives it up to take on another?
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- -Original Message- From: Gilbert Lawrence For starters, Eddie Fernandes should apologize to Goans for selecting the title of this thread. Folks, There gave been several criticisms about my choice of heading. As Selma pointed out the header was selected from the message it was taken from. Moreover I chose to put it in quotes. If you want to check this out, go to http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=536195 Eddie Fernandes
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Frederick, You really ought to read a recent book, written by Edna Fernandes, a London neighbour of mine. It is entitled Holy Warriors and deals with bigotry and xenophobia in India. Full details with reviews, extracts, ordering info. etc can be found at http://www.ednafernandes.com/ Very best wishes, Eddie === -Original Message- From: Frederick [FN] Noronha * Eddie Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I would like to know if those who are critical of the expat investment in Goa, and that includes FN, Floriano and Jane Rodrigues, have read Michelle Savage's article. Also, could they please let us know if they feel that she is being treated fairly. A straightforward yes or no please! Yes.
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- --- Frederick [FN] Noronha * ??? ?? ??? ? ??? Goa, become a toilet? Even if this is true, I would say the expat Goan has to take on his or her own (large) share of the blame for this. Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 11:24:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes, yes, FN, three cheers! Let's find a fall guy everytime something goes wrong in Goa. The only person, not responsible for the state of affairs in Goa, is the Goan living in Goa. Mario responds: a) Those who think that Goa has become a toilet obviously haven't seen the rest of India. Perhaps neighboring Maharashtra could be described as such, but not Goa, yet. b) Who the heck is kkbtnt1? I though we were not supposed to hide our identities on Goanet. c) Fred Noronha needs to get his keyboard fixed ??? ?? ??? ? ? d) I strongly deny I have anything to do with any mess in Goa - even the NRIs who defend the status quo and demonize the Panchayats are not to blame. e) Besides Wendell Rodricks, who knows more about village Panchayats than any NRI, I have made the only practical, constructive proposals that will prevent future messes in Goa. f) I think Goa would be a better place if everyone who lived there shared Wendell's constructive and positive attitude. Selma wrote: the Goan living in Goa is free to vote in the most corrupt politicians year in and year out, that Goan is free to sell his land to developers, then march in the streets demanding the developers abandon their financial investment and walk back home empty singing a merry tune all the way back to his bank, defaulting on his loan and creating a financial quagmire in the State. The Goan living in Goa, can employ labour from outside of Goa at subsistence level wages, ensure that their politicians legitimise their stay, and then that same Goan in Goa will complain about migrants, assault some hapless people, evict them from their homes and send them back with barely their skin on them. Let's not forget that Goans in Goa, sold their flats to the British and now those Goans in Goa want to confiscate their properties and auction them off. Let's wave goodbye to law, justice and any semblance of fairness as we know it. Mario observes: As we can plainly see, Selma gets carried away with her own soaring rhetoric and talks like all Goans are peas in a pod. The Goan who votes for corrupt politicians and sells his or her land is not the same Goan who then marches in the streets against ugly developments. The Goan who keeps the Goan economy humming by employing non-Goans because he or she cannot find Goans to work is not the same Goan who ...complain about migrants, assault some hapless people, evict them from their homes and send them back with barely their skin on them. This comparison doesn't even make any sense. The Goans who sold their flats to Brits are not the same Goans who want to confiscate them and auction them off. There are all kinds of Goans with all kinds of needs and desires and ideas. That is why a democracy has been likened to making chorizos. In a democracy EVERYONE does what they think is in the best interests of their families and themselves. The net result is what you see in Goa. Apparently, not enough Goans think it is a mess yet, though the good news that more and more seem to be waking up to the realization in places like Soccorro and Aldona and Benaulim and Moira, and their Panchayats and Gram Sabhas are responding which has Digambar Kamat all upset because his close personal friends and political associates may have to return some of their baksheesh. The justice and fairness that Selma is looking for is in the eye of the beholder - it all depends on whose ox is being gored. Which, to be just and fair, is why we need zoning laws, developed with citizen input and administered by those who are closest to the problem, at the village level, the Panchayats and Gram Sabhas, where the citizens can stroll over and have a cup of chai with the Sarpanch and express their opinion - as Wendell does on behalf of Colvale.
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet and comparing apples (revised)
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Jose baba, Your response to my post would suggest, you agree with the rest of my post. Which is: Ms. Savage is maliciously dragging British Goans into her poor investment decision. Ani magir, the otherwise eloquent British Goans, instead of accusing her of being racist by singling them out for deportation, are siding with her baseless logic. This is what the Nazis did. Talk of second class citizens and social stratification, at least in Ms. Savage's mind. Clearly our UK-Goenkar bhaus and bhoinins have a lot of work to do in their own backyard. Voi rre, it will take more than Xapottam.:=)) Ani No wurries mate will not work.:=)) As regards your points below, you are 'catching the pig by the tail'. If the Savages cannot / will not take Indian citizenship, (unlike the vast majority of Goans in UK who are British citizens) she should not make the comparison. Further, the vast majority of the 60,000 Goans in UK (who Ms. Savage wants to deport) are BORN IN Britain, just like Mr and Mrs. Savage. As regards your other points, Indian citizens cannot even step on British soil for a few hours, (in transit), forget about having a five-year permanent tourist-stay visa and buying property in the UK. Your own place of residence, (Bahamas - British colony), there are a lot of restrictions on tourists staying and buying property. A foreigner can only apply to be a permanent resident or buy property if they have and are prepared to invest more that half a million US dollars. http://www.thebahamasguide.com/realestate/default.htm As you well know, the Bahamas recognizes the British monarch as its formal head of state, while an appointed Governor General serves as the Queen's representative. Like Britain, even Bahamas will accept the bahile, but only creme-de-la-creme. Yet Goa / India cannot do that. I need to compliment Ms. Savage for not labeling Goa a toilet. This is something that the Brit-Goans have done by using the line as the title to the thread on Goanet. BTW please do not overlook the topic of this thread, even though you may like to change the subject.:=)) Regards, GL J. Colaco 'Take up' Indian citizenship . on the basis of? Curious brand of Apple Sauce! Have ALL Indians who have purchased property in the UK given up their Indian citizenship and taken up British citizenship? What about in the US? PS 2: Could Gilbert please advise us of the 'many immigrants and permanent settlers' who have given up their British citizenship and take up Indian citizenship'? PS3: Can a born Briton ever lose his British Citizenship - even if he gives it up to take on another? Gilbert Lawrence wrote: To compare apples to apples, Ms. Savage and her husband could do like so many immigrants and permanent settlers do - give up their British citizenship and take up Indian citizenship.
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
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http://www.GOANET.org
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5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest
Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa
16-18, May 2008
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html
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To all those who have contributed to Goa has become a Toilet
And all to all Goan Ex-pats and Goa lovers of the world.
DO COME AND HAVE A ROYAL 'SHIT' IN GOA.
And get paid for it too.
rgds
floriano
goasuraj
- Original Message -
From: Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
Hi Eddie
Just for the record, I want to say how saddened I
was
by what Michelle Savage had to say about the
difficulties she and her husband faced in Goa
---
Dear Eddie and Cornel,
A Irish gentleman read my letter on Goanet and wrote
in to thank me. I was rather glad he somehow came
across my letter, if only to reassure him that not all
Goans are xenophobes.
There is an outcry that Goans cannot afford property
or flats in Goa, so let me pose some pertinent
questions?..
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Not the way forward methinks but who cares, WE DO !! Time to let bygones be bygones, as long as you dont hurt someone on purpose, with malice or intent to do harm to their families, them personally, their faith, their land and their house. We s%it on our own doorsteps if we dare, at our peril, the consequences are pretty obvious. No more bile please, we need to find a way to get Goanet going, in the right direction. Let us call a halt to the negativity regarding this thread, there is NO SIT worse than someone else's, ours always smells of roses. John Monteiro --- floriano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- To all those who have contributed to Goa has become a Toilet And all to all Goan Ex-pats and Goa lovers of the world. DO COME AND HAVE A ROYAL 'SHIT' IN GOA. And get paid for it too. rgds floriano goasuraj
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Goa, become a toilet? Even if this is true, I would say the expat Goan has to take on his or her own (large) share of the blame for this. Why so? Firstly, expat money has been used to toiletise Goa, even while we keep getting sermons from abroad. Take a look at the 'rent backs' along the Calangute-Candolim concrete slum and take a guess who's investing in them. You preach to everyone else, want to have a Goa with picturepostcard qualities, and then go on to build your own palace in concrete wherever! I know of expats who sold land to the kin of politicians in Porvorim and then went on to talk about how corrupt Goa is! Secondly, the expat character (as the letter below underlines) can have a very fickle mindset. I know expats who had nothing to do with Goa till 1992. And were then very proud to be Goan when the Brit tourist discovered Goa as a holiday destination and playground to cure boredom and fight lousy weather. Now that we're seeing the end of the Brit tourist cycle here, the expats are jumping on the bandwaggon and are quick to agree that Goa has become a toilet! Three cheers for having a mind of your own. There is indeed a problem with expats not getting renewal for their visas in Goa (and Kerala) in recent times. But should your judgement of Goa (toilet or paradise) be just based on how cheap it is to access holidays here! Please do not mix up issues. Yes, we have problems... but we don't like it when someone tries to go hammar and tongs just to make the most of the situation. Can expats see the issues in proper light for themselves? FN 2008/5/14 Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED]: --- Eddie Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Confiscate properties of UK Goans and deport them Dear Eddie, It is very distressing to read the letter you forwarded, not the least of which is because I have recently landed in London. It seems to me that bad-luck follows me like a black cat wherever I go. When I first landed in the US, I was very proud to tell them that I came from Dubai. Unfortunately, 9/11 put a stop to me ever mentioning the Middle East. Now, in the UK, I've been very proud to say I'm from Goa, but seems like I shall soon have to invent a bogus ethnicity for myself. Just the other day someone asked me if I was from South America. Perhaps S.American is a possible fake identity for me. I shall have to investigate. What is going on in Goa at the moment is sheer and utter madness. As a Goan, I understand that despair and distrust have led to this backlash. However, it is disgraceful that we Goans have turned out to be so xenophobic. The British community who have bought property or flats in Goa are a minuscule percentage, who hardly make a dent in the overall property market. (Note M Parriker makes the same assessment in his interview).
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Hi Merwyn Calling Goa a Toilet turned state is one thing I would not agree with, What have I done for my love, what I would or can do for her, is what I would ask, I have seen and heard all this grab about Goa written by all, HOW MANY OF YOU CAN STAY IN GOA AND FIGHT FOR GOA. The bottom line will be , I have a good Job and my family to take care of, Preaching can go on and ideas conveyed, but not action and soul sacrifice, We are responsible, regards Ayres deSouza On 5/16/08, Mervyn Lobo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- While we are here, I will asking the UK government to put in place a reciprocal arrangement whereby properties of Goan settlers in the UK are confiscated and the country's 60,000 Goan immigrants are forced to return to India. Folks, 1) It amazes me that in today's world, a person can migrate to another country and insist on keeping the nationality of his old country. 2) Thankfully, the British have a sense of justice and do not pass 'revenge' laws for its citizens. 3) I agree with the author that Goa has become a toilet. The current crop of people who pose as politicians today are, essentially, the scum of Goan society. All they are concerned about is how to make money (bribes) in the short term. The pressure they are putting on foreigners to abandon their property has to be coming from their masters i.e. the builders and property developers from out of state. Mervyn3.0 __ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com -- Ayres deSouza
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Frederick [FN] Noronha wrote: Yes, we have problems... but we don't like it when someone tries to go hammar and tongs just to make the most of the situation. Can expats see the issues in proper light for themselves? FN FN, Goa's problems have nothing to do with the expatriates or NRI's. The problem lies squarely on those resident in Goa. Look at who you vote for. On one hand you have a bunch of crooks and absolutely corrupt politicians. The alternative is another set of crooks and corrupt politicians, only this group also has a religious agenda too! Unfortunately, this is the light how a tourist like me view's the situation. Mervyn3.0 __ Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/newmail/overview2/
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- --- Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ à¥à¤°à¥à¤¡à¤°à¤¿ ठनà¥à¤° à¥à¤¨à¥à¤¯à¤¾ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Goa, become a toilet? Even if this is true, I would say the expat Goan has to take on his or her own (large) share of the blame for this. Please do not mix up issues. -- Yes, yes, FN, three cheers! Let's find a fall guy everytime something goes wrong in Goa. Rajan Parriker will blame the little migrant guy, some Hindutvavaddi will blame the Muslims infiltrating Goa, Gadgil and FN will blame the affluent, the materialistic, the expat or any other clod who happens to have earned a few bucks by the sweat of his brow. The only person, not responsible for the state of affairs in Goa, is the Goan living in Goa. No, the Goan living in Goa is free to vote in the most corrupt politicians year in and year out, that Goan is free to sell his land to developers, then march in the streets demanding the developers abandon their financial investment and walk back home empty singing a merry tune all the way back to his bank, defaulting on his loan and creating a financial quagmire in the State. The Goan living in Goa, can employ labour from outside of Goa at subsistence level wages, ensure that their politicians legitimise their stay, and then that same Goan in Goa will complain about migrants, assault some hapless people, evict them from their homes and send them back with barely their skin on them. Let's not forget that Goans in Goa, sold their flats to the British and now those Goans in Goa want to confiscate their properties and auction them off. Let's wave goodbye to law, justice and any semblance of fairness as we know it. Well, hallelujah! The lunatic left and righteous right finally in agreement. But hey, who is to blame? That expat Goan. Chus, Selma
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- We know Goa has become a toilet thanks the photos from Rajan and JoeGoaUk I would like to know if those who are critical of the expat investment in Goa, and that includes FN, Floriano and Jane Rodrigues, have read Michelle Savage's article. Also, could they please let us know if they feel that she is being treated fairly. A straightforward yes or no please! George Pinto has obviously read the letter but does not answer the question. Nor is he able to recognise rhetoric. To read the Michelle Savage letter see http://oheraldo.in/pagedetails.asp?nid=3950cid=13 - it is the last letter on the page. For the original Goa has become a Toilet post see http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=536195 If you think that these are isolated cases and can be dismissed check out the heated discussions taking place in various groups such as: http://www.indiamike.com/india/property-in-india-f105/ http://britishexpats.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=94 http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=60 etc. Is the confiscation of properties by the Goa Government moral? legal? Eddie Fernandes
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- --- Eddie Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: George Pinto has obviously read the letter but does not answer the question. Nor is he able to recognise rhetoric. To read the Michelle Savage letter see http://oheraldo.in/pagedetails.asp?nid=3950cid=13 - it is the last letter on the page. Yes Eddie, I read the entire letter twice and whether or not I am able to recognize rhetoric, is irrelevant to Michelle patronizing and prejudicial letter. However, more to her point. She says she has legally purchased property in Goa. If that is the case, her property should NOT be confiscated and auctioned. This is a law and order issue. However, I do not know if the builder who sold her the property did things legally, for now I give Michelle the benefit of the doubt. Let's see details of her purchase transaction before we reach a definite conclusion. On her other point about asking the UK govt. to have 60,000 Goans leave the UK, do you agree with her view? Should we also go back in time and recoup all UK properties obtained throughout the world, many of them illegally since it was through the colonial system and imperialistic policies? As a beneficiary of the British colonial system, including the beneficiary of the current deference to white skin in Goa, she is lecturing Goans on property rights! If she is leaving Goa, I say good riddance. Regards, George
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Dear George You are absolutely right. Besides, Michelle Savage is merely venting frustration. There is NO need to go into the details you have listed. Since the coming into force of HRA 1998, it has become increasingly difficult for any 'authority' in the UK to take arbitrary actions. The authority can be hauled before the courts (in record time) and the actions subjected to Judicial Review as per Convention Rights. Goans legally in the UK do not need to worry about their property rights. They may have to contend with the negative public sentiment which might develop as a result of the Press taking this subject and running with it. Riff Raff in any country is still Riff Raff. Goans always had a positive image in the world. Unfortunately, what has happened to Goa over the past few decades ...will be detrimental to the Goan image. A Big Thank You to those who have 'helped'. jc 2008/5/16 George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Michelle Savage's article is wrong on many fronts, for example: 1. Goans in the UK have migrated LEGALLY, and cannot be deprived of their property rights. If any Goan in the UK has done anything illegal, they must face justice. It could be a law and order issue if UK Goans have broken the law and dealth with on a case-by-case basis, not a prejudicial issue to blanket all UK Goans. 2. Michelle wants to return 60,000 Goans to India? Is she sure that is where they came from? Many Goans migrated to the UK from Africa (for example). 3. Does Michelle know that many UK visitors to Goa overstay their visa, and are therefore illegally in Goa. Is she aware that shell companies are set up for UK property buyers in Goa to circumvent the law? Does she approve UK citizens breaking the law in Goa? Regards, George Michelle Savage, UK Confiscate properties of UK Goans and deport them
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- --- Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ à¥à¤°à¥à¤¡à¤°à¤¿ ठनà¥à¤° à¥à¤¨à¥à¤¯à¤¾ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Selma, My point was that either expat Goans see themselves as part of the Goan reality, or they just stand on the sidelines... to cheer and claim Goanity when the Brits (and others) are flocking here --- FN dearest, I think we are all getting hot under the collar for no reason at all. Let me clear a few things. Neither Eddie nor I came up with the subject line for this post. It was lifted from a letter written by a Brit. Secondly, I don't think you of all people would sincerely question either Eddie's or my Goanity. I take it you have the patent on that word:-) I am and always will be a Goan. Shastikaan by nature, Shastikaan by birth. I have a cemetery full of dead relatives to prove my Goanity. I was a Goan long before Brits discovered Goa, and will be one long after they abandon it. The only point being made here, atleast by me, is: (a) Once a sale has gone through legally, how can the government rescind it? Let me assure you, unlike Americans, the vast majority of Brits are poor, working class souls. These people don't deserve to have their hard earned money flushed down the drain, just because it will garner a few votes at the ballot. There comes a time when every society collectively must decide what their threshold for integrity is. This is my last post on the subject (so help me God :-) Chus, selma
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- [1] Frederick [FN] Noronha wrote: Yes, we have problems...but we don't like it when someone tries to go hammar and tongs just to make the most of the situation. Can expats see the issues in proper light for themselves? FN [2] Selma Carvalho wrote: Let's find a fall guy everytime something goes wrong in Goa. Rajan Parriker will blame the little migrant guy The only person, not responsible for the state of affairs in Goa, is the Goan living in Goa. [3] Mervyn Lobo FN, Goa's problems have nothing to do with the expatriates or NRI's. The problem lies squarely on those resident in Goa. Look at who you vote for. On one hand you have a bunch of crooks and absolutely corrupt politicians. The alternative is another set of crooks and corrupt politicians, only this group also has a religious agenda too! == jc's response: On the other hand, I'd say this (a) Selma, Which Goan is responsible for the filth, illegal squatting and public relief of bodily functions in Goa.? Who, Selma is responsible for the filthy state of Petticoat Lane in London.the Brits? (b) I believe that what Rajan Parrikar has highlighted through his lens - is something we have known for 20 years, and some of us have been 'carrying on' about on GoaNet for at least 12 years. (For a later script please see http://www.colaco.net/1/rivers.htm ) (c) Don't blame the Goan people for literally NOT KNOWING all the details. Those trusting Goans relied on what they were told (rather, NOT told) by their Govt and the lapdog Goa Press and believed that everything was doing fine! ( A situation very similar to the displayed ignorance of our 'friend' Mario) (d) I fully agree with Mervyn. 'Goa's problems have nothing to do with the expatriates or NRIs'. Frederick is talking hat-talk. Goa's problems have to do with those who have ruined Goa while promising Goans of greater glory and telling them that 'All was Quite Accha OK' and A One. (e) The fact is that Goans have lost control of Goa. The emasculated Goa civil service is totally overwhelmed by the magnitude of the problem. The principled civil servants are caught between the Rock (of the massive load) and the hard place(run by unscrupulous Heads of Department - many of them non-Goans). Many of them have either given up or just joined 'them'. (f) It is very easy to blame this office and that office - but do you know what it is to deal with the legal system and the advocates who work in that system? I honestly do NOT know one solitary lawyer in Goa whom I can vouch for as being 'untainted'. Does one GoaNetter know of ONE honest 'advocate' in Goa? If so ...please do let us know. (g) The unfortunate Bottom line: There is nothing legal that Goans can do with the little migrant guy' .even if 20 million of them walk in tomorrow and squat right in the centre of Salcette. And even if it is an illegal act that they are doing - please do not look for any justice within the space of 1-15 years..or for the police to do anything to prevent it from happening. (h) You know whom to Thank for all of this do you not? (i) Finally ...Goans face one of four choices 1: The Corrupt One 2: The Corrupt + Communal One 3: Gulf 4: Caju Feni jc
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- 2008/5/14 Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED]: There is this feeling that Goans in Goa cannot afford to buy property in their own land. Well, NRI Goans cannot afford to buy property in Goa either. Nor can I afford to buy property in New York or London or Paris. I am not a foreigner in Goa, someone staying here to earn my living, or someone who opted to migrate here for a higher salary. Nor am I here to escape the unfriendly weather. This is the reality of my personal finances. That doesn't mean, I hold some hapless person responsible for it. Goans cannot afford fish either, does that mean we stop exporting fish? Check the debate about fish in the 'sixties and 'seventies. When fishing was mechanised (with help from Scandinavia, and to the detriment and destruction of the traditional fishermen -- remember the Ramponkar movement?) we were told interesting stories. For one, we were told that the mechanisation of fishing would improve the protein intake of the people of Goa. Today, all one sees is refrigerated large trucks ferrying the catch to Mangalore (for processing and onward transport mainly overseas). Or hotel buyers which don't even wait for the catch to enter the market. When a bureaucrat was telling us about the wonder-potential of shrimp farming in Goa many years ago, he told us the price (in dollars) per kilo. Who can afford it here? he said nonchalantly, when asked whether it would be primarily for exports. I suggest you see the shrimp-less-think-more campaign: http://www.mangroveactionproject.org/issues/shrimp-farming/shrimp-farming It touches Goa only tangentially, but gives a hint that the issues are far more complex here. And responding to another mail from Selma: a) How many Goans can afford Wendel's creations? Does this mean that Wendel must produce a designer line of Kapod and Kasti, at affordable rates for Goans? Wendel doesn't take available cloth significantly out of the market, promise to clad the slumdweller, or affect my other choices and preferences in any significant way. b) How many Goans can Remo find to finance, produce and distribute his music? Does this mean he stop producing music or does he seek financing and distribution where he can? We're confusing issues here. Remo is an entrepreneur in the world of music, and he will find the necessary investment to put out his products into the market. I believe he was even self-marketing his own CDs, going around on his yellow scooter, in the 'eighties. How is this relevant to the takeover of Goan land resources in a way which alienates the people of the place? c) How many Goans can afford the lobsters that are sold at beach shacks for Rs600 a plate? Does this mean Goan fishermen supply to shacks only after every family in Goa has had a lobster on its plate? Apart from lobsters, there are many other kinds of food available here (though inflation across India is once again, speedily becoming an issue, to the glee of the India shining BJP). Once land rates go up, it goes up for all. Land is a resource and like any other resource it is in short supply. People all over the world are facing the same problem Goans are, which is why you elect governments that put in place, affordable interest rates, housing loan assistance, relieving the pressure on the housing market by building low-cost housing. These are some of the legitimate ways of doing it in a free-market democracy. Laissez-faire economy? A corrupted system, where the land-sharks themselves control governments, whichever party is in power? There are things that we have to come to terms with, and solutions that we have to seek within the framework of a just and equitable system. Just making laws as we go along, refusing to be part of a global community, placing blame where none belongs and embracing short-term solutions to long-term problems, is what is primarily wrong with Goa today. India was part of the global community before 1947, and Goa was pre-1961 too. The rules of the game were redrawn then, because these were deemed to be unfair. Maybe that's the point voices from Goa are making now too. Just because non-resident-Goans see their interests to be similar to those of foreigners in this case, I don't think it's fair to twist the debate out of context ... FN
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- George, Ah - so this is all because of the Crown Jewels then! Thanks for the explanation! Regards Eddie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Pinto Should we also go back in time and recoup all UK properties obtained throughout the world, many of them illegally since it was through the colonial system and imperialistic policies? As a beneficiary of the British colonial system, including the beneficiary of the current deference to white skin in Goa, she is lecturing Goans on property rights! If she is leaving Goa, I say good riddance. Regards, George
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Hi Eddie Just for the record, I want to say how saddened I was by what Michelle Savage had to say about the difficulties she and her husband faced in Goa when it seems clear that they chose to live in Goa with perfect credentials, finance and clean motives. I would not say the same about many others who have 'colonised' parts of Goa and illegally blocked areas to local Goans and about which the Government should act by easily deporting some, when entirely in the wrong, as per the law. I do not wish to repeat many of the points on this theme raised by Selma, Mario, Santosh etc but want to emphasise that it really is time that many fellow Goans got out of their extreme parochialism that determines their mindsets about contemporary change in Goa. I say this whilst fully recognising the effects on ordinary people of significant population change in Goa but want to emphasise that demonising new people seeking a life and contribution to Goa is not the way to do it. It is a fact that virtually all people resident in Goa today came from elsewhere in the recent or distant past and that there will continue to be transitions because of the normal human movement phenomena. We really have a global paradox today in that, in virtually any part of the world, local residents are besides themselves over new settlers in their midst but at the same time, over 200 million (including large numbers of Goans) are currently seeking a life in new countries. This is a fact that, has to be reconciled with, and adjusted to, through intelligent means and endeavours by the Goans in Goa. There is indeed, at least on Goanet, something to say that, constructive and carefully thought-out planning is now becoming more evident and I would want to wish this aspect (rather than xenophobia) every success. Cornel DaCosta, London. --- Eddie Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Confiscate properties of UK Goans and deport them Source: Herald 14 May 2008 at http://oheraldo.in/pagedetails.asp?nid=3950cid=13 By Michelle Savage, UK Full text: Eight years ago, my husband and I decided that we no longer wanted to deal with the stress of working in high pressure jobs. Our children were all married and half of them had moved abroad. We looked around and decided to move to Goa.
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Hi Eddie This article by the so called foreigners, ( I would call them willing Goans) to our politicians they are foreignor, NO Votes so call them alliens, The concept of foreigners cannot buy land, why , like they have put it accross, can we absorb all our Goans abroad, ?? What are we trying to do dig our past, I would do the basic, hold on to my land, we have survived by exodus to Sea , Africa, Gulf , UK, US and Australia, if we can so can they. I am a proud Goan , who lives here loves it here, I have tried to adjust, Places , People and circumstances I cannot change , just myself. IF I HAVE TI LIVE, CASTIGASTE OUR POLITICIANS, CAN WE ?? DO WE??? Do we really care about our GOA. or just our pockets, Ayres deSouza On 5/14/08, Eddie Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Confiscate properties of UK Goans and deport them Source: Herald 14 May 2008 at http://oheraldo.in/pagedetails.asp?nid=3950cid=13 By Michelle Savage, UK Full text: Eight years ago, my husband and I decided that we no longer wanted to deal with the stress of working in high pressure jobs. Our children were all married and half of them had moved abroad. We looked around and decided to move to Goa. We approached a reputed builder and local advocate, who all told us we were safe to buy property in Goa. To be on the safe side, we asked the advocate to confirm through the Reserve Bank (RBI) that any purchase made by us was legal. We received a letter from the RBI advising that there would be no objection, providing we complied with FEMA. We still have this letter. As we are not great lovers of modern architecture, we purchased an old Portuguese house with a nice-sized garden. All the paperwork was completed and we took possession of the property. Renovating the property and grounds was expensive; in all honesty it would have been cheaper to build a new house. But we were happy that it was our last house and we would make it just as we wanted. For several years we were very happy in Goa. Then all of sudden we are being treated quite disgracefully. The press runs daily horror stories of how Goa doesn't want people like us. We originally came on a 5 year X Visa. Then we were told we no longer qualify for these visas, and can only have a six-month tourist visa. Now MLAs are openly saying that properties purchased by foreigners will be confiscated and auctioned. We sadly decided to leave Goa, but were informed that we could not sell our property. Our builder, who has enjoyed our patronage for years, has said that he will deal with all the paperwork if we sell the house to him for the initial purchase price (excluding what we paid him). My husband has become quite ill from all the stress, and we are now back in the UK so that he can be treated for the illness this has brought on. While we are here, I will asking the UK government to put in place a reciprocal arrangement whereby properties of Goan settlers in the UK are confiscated and the country's 60,000 Goan immigrants are forced to return to India. We want to say that we wished we had never heard of Goa and had never visited India. The whole experience makes me want to constantly cry, and I have been prescribed anti-depressants, something that never happened in the past. I would make a sincere plea to the authorities in Goa. We haven't done anything wrong. Let us sell our legally purchased property and we guarantee we will come back again. Forwarded by Eddie Fernandes http://www.goanvoice.org.uk/ -Original Message- Goa has become a Toilet 13 May: British Expats Goa Forum. http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=536195 -- Ayres deSouza
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- --- CORNEL DACOSTA [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Eddie Just for the record, I want to say how saddened I was by what Michelle Savage had to say about the difficulties she and her husband faced in Goa --- Dear Eddie and Cornel, A Irish gentleman read my letter on Goanet and wrote in to thank me. I was rather glad he somehow came across my letter, if only to reassure him that not all Goans are xenophobes. There is an outcry that Goans cannot afford property or flats in Goa, so let me pose some pertinent questions? a) How many Goans can afford Wendel's creations? Does this mean that Wendel must produce a designer line of Kapod and Kasti, at affordable rates for Goans? b) How many Goans can Remo find to finance, produce and distribute his music? Does this mean he stop producing music or does he seek financing and distribution where he can? c) How many Goans can afford the lobsters that are sold at beach shacks for Rs600 a plate? Does this mean Goan fishermen supply to shacks only after every family in Goa has had a lobster on its plate? Land is a resource and like any other resource it is in short supply. People all over the world are facing the same problem Goans are, which is why you elect governments that put in place, affordable interest rates, housing loan assistance, relieving the pressure on the housing market by building low-cost housing. These are some of the legitimate ways of doing it in a free-market democracy. Yes, ofcourse we have to conserve our land, our culture and our heritage but we don't have to lose our dignity or thwart democracy in the process. selma
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- It is quite wonderful that new laws can be introduced to protect Goa Goan land from non-Goans or should this be non-PIO. Yes wonderful. Is it so wonderful that these laws can then be back-dated to another time or put out a person or family from their home AFTER they have settled lived in the country, no doubt contributing as did this couple in their retirement years, by doing up an old house also the land surrounding it, only to be told to leave, Goa does not want you? I was approached by a developer some years ago, visited a conference they held at a hotel in Kensington, London. Was absolutely thrilled to see what was happening in Goa, but that was some years ago, at least 15 years ago. My wife me where self-employed business people on good money, we had a young family but thought about our future and wanted to do the same as this couple, buy a place and build a house, with a little land for cultivating own vegetables, have a nice tree or two and flowers etc. But we were very wary of the rights of our children, being girls etc. in Goa. Since my post on this last year, I was advised at the time that if my girls were PIO then there is no issue, there were several routes we could take to ensure their future, and property rights etc. After much ado, here there we noticed the developers were always asking for money upfront, the villas or duplex's etc were not yet built but deposits were being taken, so we did not go ahead. Lucky for us. PIO or otherwise, one of us is NOT a PIO, will the Goan or Indian Government then choose to add a further amendment to the law and prohibit any spouse of a PIO not reside in their house? Goa is getting hysterial with this, I am so very sorry for this couple, who in 8 years have managed to live contribute to Goan society in their retirement but have been made to feel like the Ghattis the Goans abhor... PIO or not, this couple were Westerners sorry, but Goa is for Goans only, no other people, not even from India or other parts of the world are welcome to live there. Do come as tourists, we want your money, but if you decide to stay a bit too long, then we dont want you, we want new, fresh (young.?) things with money, spend spend spend on booze drugs, till you drop, or we will drop you, one way or another. Disgraceful, I cannot believe my eyes and ears these days. Luckily MY PIO spouse is from Mauritius, where I AM welcome, as her spouse, to live indefinitely, in much the same way as she is WELCOME to live in the UK, where I was born, of European parentage, live, work, contribute to the society, as she has done for past 19 years. In Mauritius I know I will not be treated in this way, by the Mauritian Government, nor by the locals, with whom I have a great rapport. I am not the only European welcome in Mauritius, but then I suppose Mauritius has kept its exclusivity, anyone who can rustle up a couple hundred quid can find their way to a hotel for a week. For the same in Mauritius, well you need to rustle up five times that, and that's just the cheap end of the market. Anyone wanting a week in Mauritius can say goodbye to Rs 200,000 (fare, travel, food, hotel, sighseeing). Unless you are like me, married to a Mauritian and have Mauritian relatives who know how to save money, rent a bungalow for the same price as I would have paid in Goa, yes that CHEAP. Maybe its time to draw a line.. if you dont want strangers in your country, put a sign saying so, just as the sign we once saw on Goanet, from a house owner wanting to rent his house FOREIGERS ONLY ... except now it should read Goans only, no Ghattis or Westerners need apply. Welcome to Goa! Oh my goodness, this cant go on. --- Eight years ago, my husband and I decided that we no longer wanted to deal with the stress of working in high pressure jobs . We approached a reputed builder and local advocate, who all told us we were safe to buy property in Goa. To be on the safe side, we asked the advocate to confirm through the Reserve Bank (RBI) that any purchase made by us was legal. We received a letter from the RBI advising that there would be no objection, providing we complied with FEMA. We still have this letter. As we are not great lovers of modern
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Dear Selma, It is comforting to know that there are other Goans who share my concerns. Yes, I too am puzzled by some of the Goan reactions to Foreign Nationals buying property in Goa. We have been led to understand that the Goan per capita income is the highest in India but property prices used to be comparatively very low. They are now catching up with national and international levels but the locals will not accept this and are looking for scapegoats. Your analogy about Goans not being to afford fish is interesting but the reason for this I am often told is due to the presence of tourists in Goa! If this is the case I cannot understand why fish cannot be brought into Goa from Karwar and Kerala. Also, do fish prices collapse in the May to Oct. period each year? I do not believe that the threat of confiscation of Foreign Nationals properties will stand the test of the High Court since the law is a Union rather than a State one. The Goa Government knows this but continues to beat the drum to appease the mindless citizens. The noise is scary! Eddie Fernandes -Original Message- From: Carvalho [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] It is very distressing to read the letter you Forwarded ... What is going on in Goa at the moment is sheer and utter madness.
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- While we are here, I will asking the UK government to put in place a reciprocal arrangement whereby properties of Goan settlers in the UK are confiscated and the country's 60,000 Goan immigrants are forced to return to India. Folks, 1) It amazes me that in today's world, a person can migrate to another country and insist on keeping the nationality of his old country. 2) Thankfully, the British have a sense of justice and do not pass 'revenge' laws for its citizens. 3) I agree with the author that Goa has become a toilet. The current crop of people who pose as politicians today are, essentially, the scum of Goan society. All they are concerned about is how to make money (bribes) in the short term. The pressure they are putting on foreigners to abandon their property has to be coming from their masters i.e. the builders and property developers from out of state. Mervyn3.0 __ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
Confiscate properties of UK Goans and deport them Source: Herald 14 May 2008 at http://oheraldo.in/pagedetails.asp?nid=3950cid=13 By Michelle Savage, UK Full text: Eight years ago, my husband and I decided that we no longer wanted to deal with the stress of working in high pressure jobs. Our children were all married and half of them had moved abroad. We looked around and decided to move to Goa. We approached a reputed builder and local advocate, who all told us we were safe to buy property in Goa. To be on the safe side, we asked the advocate to confirm through the Reserve Bank (RBI) that any purchase made by us was legal. We received a letter from the RBI advising that there would be no objection, providing we complied with FEMA. We still have this letter. As we are not great lovers of modern architecture, we purchased an old Portuguese house with a nice-sized garden. All the paperwork was completed and we took possession of the property. Renovating the property and grounds was expensive; in all honesty it would have been cheaper to build a new house. But we were happy that it was our last house and we would make it just as we wanted. For several years we were very happy in Goa. Then all of sudden we are being treated quite disgracefully. The press runs daily horror stories of how Goa doesn't want people like us. We originally came on a 5 year X Visa. Then we were told we no longer qualify for these visas, and can only have a six-month tourist visa. Now MLAs are openly saying that properties purchased by foreigners will be confiscated and auctioned. We sadly decided to leave Goa, but were informed that we could not sell our property. Our builder, who has enjoyed our patronage for years, has said that he will deal with all the paperwork if we sell the house to him for the initial purchase price (excluding what we paid him). My husband has become quite ill from all the stress, and we are now back in the UK so that he can be treated for the illness this has brought on. While we are here, I will asking the UK government to put in place a reciprocal arrangement whereby properties of Goan settlers in the UK are confiscated and the country's 60,000 Goan immigrants are forced to return to India. We want to say that we wished we had never heard of Goa and had never visited India. The whole experience makes me want to constantly cry, and I have been prescribed anti-depressants, something that never happened in the past. I would make a sincere plea to the authorities in Goa. We haven't done anything wrong. Let us sell our legally purchased property and we guarantee we will come back again. Forwarded by Eddie Fernandes http://www.goanvoice.org.uk/ -Original Message- Goa has become a Toilet 13 May: British Expats Goa Forum. http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=536195
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
--- Eddie Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Confiscate properties of UK Goans and deport them Dear Eddie, It is very distressing to read the letter you forwarded, not the least of which is because I have recently landed in London. It seems to me that bad-luck follows me like a black cat wherever I go. When I first landed in the US, I was very proud to tell them that I came from Dubai. Unfortunately, 9/11 put a stop to me ever mentioning the Middle East. Now, in the UK, I've been very proud to say I'm from Goa, but seems like I shall soon have to invent a bogus ethnicity for myself. Just the other day someone asked me if I was from South America. Perhaps S.American is a possible fake identity for me. I shall have to investigate. What is going on in Goa at the moment is sheer and utter madness. As a Goan, I understand that despair and distrust have led to this backlash. However, it is disgraceful that we Goans have turned out to be so xenophobic. The British community who have bought property or flats in Goa are a minuscule percentage, who hardly make a dent in the overall property market. (Note M Parriker makes the same assessment in his interview). There is this feeling that Goans in Goa cannot afford to buy property in their own land. Well, NRI Goans cannot afford to buy property in Goa either. Nor can I afford to buy property in New York or London or Paris. This is the reality of my personal finances. That doesn't mean, I hold some hapless person responsible for it. Goans cannot afford fish either, does that mean we stop exporting fish? There are things that we have to come to terms with, and solutions that we have to seek within the framework of a just and equitable system. Just making laws as we go along, refusing to be part of a global community, placing blame where none belongs and embracing short-term solutions to long-term problems, is what is primarily wrong with Goa today. Chus, selma
Re: [Goanet] Goa has become a Toilet
I agree with the argument of the poster here, FN's should be allowed to sell their properties and move on. Many of them, bought these places because of wrong advice of friends, developers and advocates, who did not have proper understanding the FEMA rules. No point in closing register books or confiscating properties - just sell the properties in open market. Many of them, will get a really good ROI, compared to investments in UK or US.
