[Haskell-cafe] Re: [Haskell] Swapping parameters and type classes
Salute Simon, hi everybody here! Ian is scientific in his observations and has a valid point. I share his objection to the Haskell list as unnecessarily misleading newcomers which, I would add, sets precedents for others to be verbose. Then, creating a Beginner list is less fortunate than creating Announcements list for obvious and not so obvious reasons. There are things in this culture however that make the decision difficoult. What stands out is that announcements gained in the Haskell list much wider connotation and by renaming it into this name explicitly might kill this overinterpretation and thus couple of interesting oservations might not find its way to an audience. Ian's numbers tell however that this benefits speakers more than the listeners;-) Haskell-Cafe though deserves respect on the same scienific ground - the share volume speeks for it! I agree with you Simon that the name Cafe created sort of spiritual component to the community which should not be underestimated. We are humans and even history of mathematics is a stream of fashion between couple of great discoveries. Cheers, -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] PROPOSAL: Rename haskell@ to haskell-announce@
Sorry guys for joining the thread of sinners on haskell@ today. Forgot to check if guests had not moved to cafe;-) It is a good example though how insufficient this verbal principles are, since I have myself raised the need to revise names of the lists here. On second thought, with rising traffic the problem should be approached by introducing AI automation - sort of scunning, learning, summerising and sending tagged abstracts onto [EMAIL PROTECTED] In other words the only possible input onto haskell list should be robotic:-) Be brave guys, you are ment to make history:-) Cheers, -Andrzej Jaworski ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] PROPOSAL: Rename haskell@ to haskell-announce@
Flooding haskell-cafe with extra traffic from haskel@ will lead to comp.soft-sys.matlab syndrom where few people read anything but their own postings and discussion is virtually unknown. I can see only two options available to us right now to preserve readability in the fast growing Haskell community: divide haskell@ into more specific lists (haskell-cafe should preserve its right to long threads !!!) or ascribe volunteers (on monthly bases) to moderate and process haskell@ so as to receive tagged tree of links. -A.J. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] PROPOSAL: Rename [EMAIL PROTECTED] haskell-announce@
(...) I subscribe to haskell so as not to miss anything important, and when something I'm interested in moves to haskell-cafe, (...) Wrong assumption. Even if you know the author it makes more sense to wait and see how others respond to his newest input. This means that you should check up Cafe first to see if it is worth moving to Cafe;-) Another false believe is that best things appear first in [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the contrary, long threads in Cafe indicate that participants know what to expect of each other and pick up a thread on the same principle some pick up new Stephen King novel. Before reviews on the amazon.com publishers had to result to tricks like labelling a collection of science fiction stories by various lesser known authors with Isaac Asimov name even when his only cotribution was a preface. As I said ealier - really big traffic will need intelligent screening and lebbeling. And to what pathology it leads when unattended see comp.soft-sys.matlab. Cheers, -Andrzej Jaworski ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskellers hate GUIs!!
Hello Wisecrackers, Cannot resist shering with you my perspective. Computer is a logic device and logic builds complexity bottom up while graphics builds it top down. They are therefore antagonistic by nature and in the single case of their glorious interplay - The Euclidean Geometry - it blocked abstract thinking for two millennia (no zero, no negative numbers, no continuity). The implications of that facts are 3-fold: (1) Compositional GUI needs some non-geometric and perhaps non-commutative concepts (2) GUI will always set limit on the scope of your thinking (3) conceptually rich DSL is your best friend as human-computer interface. The role of GUI has gone way beyond its usefulness and now serves the industry to sell computers as candies. Apps like Acrobat Reader became little more than GUI when judged by size and only spymasters' conflicting interests strip some GUI excess to see you swim in sewers of the Internet-turned-video. This visual mania is dangerous as it discourages investigative thinking and reliance on concepts. It is shocking and in my judgement not a coincidence that major theories (like Chaos T.) were discovered using punched cards or plain pen and paper, while Artificial Intelligence research has been very acutely wounded by mouse. Down to Earth TTS reading should have human quality by now, had the researchers used conceptual and compositional approach. If linguists knew Haskell they could write DSLs to intelligently query large data sets and step by step discover human algorithms. Instead they use mostly statistics for pattern recognition. If experts could build DSLs for amplifying their own human concepts they would multiply computer power by human intelligence. Instead they are taught how to press GUI buttons. And what is behind this buttons? Statistics and designer crap! Down to the dust of your heels: make Acrobat Reader TTS read some PDF and you will hear main text intermingled with unrelated footnotes and paragraph titles and copyrights of every picture or graph repeated forever. You can correct this of course with several lines of Haskell code but then Wall Street should sell Adobe and buy You;-) I have been using Haskell for bizarre mathematical stuff but rarely feel the need for anything more than Unicode. Still I would appreciate greatly a simple compositional GUI like Clean has. Perhaps Haskell friendly drivers for selected cards is another path to simplicity? The ultimate GUI waits for operator algebra action where Haskell may show its Category Theoretical teeth. I doubt real world will ever learn Haskell so why Haskellers should pull every piece of real world crap? My advice is: stay clean, the world is wrong. Alleluia! Cheers, - Andrzej Jaworski ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: [Haskell] [Fwd: Re: Computer Language Shootout]
On 2/26/07, Kirsten Chevalier honored me with his attention: Can you clarify what you mean by this? How do you formally prove that a programming language (rather than a specific implementation of one) performs better for a given problem? (..) It is about my saying:SML was exhaustively proved to predict this logic much better. Formal proof requires a theory. So you might use Copernicus model to formally prove that Australia is on the other side of Earth against Europe. Exhaustive prove might require you to dig a very deep hole in the ground;-) In case of proving softspots of Haskell, a couple of very knowledgeable people here and there dug through exhaustive set of alternatives. That's it. In case of formal proves over programming languages aspirations are limited to program correctness and probably will never address performance. (see http://unit.aist.go.jp/cvs/Agda/) Unfortunately I spend most of my time doing first kind of proofs, I am not sure how it is with you;-) I've read a few of your posts and I still don't understand what you mean by a compiler address[ing] specific properties of a program. Can you give an example of the kinds of program properties you're talking about, and explain how C compilers exploit them in a way that Haskell compilers currently fail to do? My posts were intentionally motivational because I wanted to get feedback on the problem. As to address[ing] specific properties of a program. In ADP a program deals with DNA and molecular structures. Because the program is a sort of inference engine and simulator at the same time it is desirable to introduce likelihood function as low as possible to avoid blowing up search spaces when everything is constructed and reconstructed at the same time. C is low so that's it. However that is done at a cost - the routines that access the pre-calculated data are no longer identical to those that access the routines that initially calculated the data. In Prolog or Haskell they could remain the same. Have a good time, -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Patrick Perry's BLAS package
Hi, Indeed, this has been long awaited. Long live Patrick!!! And continue the good work:-) However, such essential work shouldn't be dependent on heroic effort of an individual. If Haskell is to remain non-commercial a disciplined community effort should be taken akin to Pythonian. Perhaps also thouse of you who teach Haskell could better use cheap labour of students, after all Haskell's module system is not all that weak;-) Cheers, -A.J. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Patrick Perry's BLAS package
On Jun 7, 11:21 am, Don Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The best thing anyone here can do for haskell is contribute a library. The more areas we cover with Haskell code, the easier the path is to ongoing development, and a viable, sustainable Haskell world. Hi Don, I cannot agree more but: (1) I doubt that your consistant contribution and sense of responsibility can be replaced by independent volunteers. (2) More important than the number of libraries is their maintenance and accessibility by which I mean not just sufficient documentation but also reviews with pragmatic suggestions and shared experience formated into some knoledge base. (3) Haskell attracts guys that like originality [ like me;-) ] which is dengerous since building viable programming environment should be a top down affair. Regular coders are easier to cooperate. Conclusion: Some coordination effort is inevitable. Complementary librairs should be chained and updated together like toolboxes in Matlab, which might encourage writers to dedicate domain specific articles or a book around them. Cheers, -Andrzej Jaworski ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] A hell of a question
I just want to say Hello to let you know that there are some serious entities watching you besides monads and FBI:-) There has been a hell of a discussion recently about logos, languages and religion and I want to add to this. First let me disassociate Haskell from Taoism which to may taste has left us in an unhealthy climate. It suffices to say that Taoism is a school of clever trics and cute aphorisms but without the slightest attempt to explain or generalize let alone produce an abstract idea or a system. That is why its wisdom is non transferable in spite of majority of humans desending from it. Haskell on the contrary is a minority school that implements abstract ideas for problem solving in the most transferable way to date, so that other languages look into it for their share. But don't worry, thay will choke becouse it is them who practice Taoizm. Playing too many tricks will eventually trick them, even if some are powerful enough to brainwash dicent professors to preach interoperability or the like. Every viable complexity needs a single underlying concept to survive, including you and the universe. Microsoft and the like excluding;-) Haskell has all that: consistency, transparency and self-contained concept. However Haskell is also somehow asynchronic with the Bible as it is condemned to perpetual purity only to be saved from it via monads, which according to Spinoza are arranged by God in a perfect order which ascends to God, the supreme monad!!!. Thus we can look at Haskell's purity as a kind of harmless attempt to play God by means of incapsulating the world only to ignor it. This could somehow put it in the same boat with the devil. They both prefer your brain to Turing machin:-) I would leave with the eternal question what the hell Haskell is? and with my Santa Close emphasising Haskell's purity and my simplicity. Here: http://haskell.org/sitewiki/images/7/79/WCF.Andrzej.Jaworski.gif Have fun, -Andrzej Jaworski ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] A hell of a question
Hi Luke, When neurosurgeons split the brain into left and right hemisphere cutting it along corpus callosum the patient will talk to you with his left half and right half independently - each time unaware what his other half was talking about a moment earlier. I believe Zen emulates such split on a microscopic scale. We all go thru similar state when we conceive an original idea - if we do not write this down or formulate it immediately the discovery will loose its punch and sense of depth. The best documented and most prominent example is Hegel's discovery of dialectical logic - after extensive writing about that at some point he honestly admits loosing the original concept. But if not for his western oververbosity we might not today use the term 'naive' set theory. Every serious mathematician touching foundations is today perfectly aware of the price we pay for formulating things. But I am unaware of any virtue of trying to clap with one hand;-) Regards, -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A hell of a question
Arnaud Bailly kindly exposed my mistake: I cited Leibniz Monadology attributing it to Spinoza. Call me idiot but it wasn't thoughtless mistake, I really mixed up Spinoza's concept of 'modes' with Leibniz's concept of 'monad'. But it is because of my laziness rather than foolishness (at least this time). My argument is that in his final writings Leibniz's 'monads' encompass reality as perceptions and emanate from God as thought emanates from the mind, which is exactly what Spinoza's 'modes' are about. So monads and modes being equal I prefer Spinoza as a patron for Haskell for his purity of cause-effect treatment. Arnold adds another Haskell-Spinoza nicety, I hope he won't mind my including his all letter. Thank you Arnold, it is encouraging to find guys like you. Philosophy is not my thing but I believe every man should tackle it as exercise. Hello Andrzej, Thanks a lot for your bit of rationalism among all these devotions :-) I think however that you are confusing Spinoza with Leibniz in the following assertion. Monads are a concept invented by the latter, together with the famous the best possible world ever mocked by Voltaire in Candide. The comparison between Haskell and spinozism is rather interesting though, especially when one considers that Spinoza's Ethic is based on the idea that the ultimate goal of one self is to increase its power to live, an affect which it calls Joy. Thinking of Haskell as a way to increase one's joy and one's power is a nice thought. Regards, Arnaud Bailly ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: [Haskell] Haskell Chess
Hi Andrew, and thank you for invitation. Well, what can I say. I am glad that the wise game can spark spirit of cooperation here. Perhaps it is time for Mr. Haskell to leave stale university rooms and go out for beer:-) On my part I can promise to watch the project and perhaps, architecture permitting, I may suggest a module that could learn from mistakes. Cheers, -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] AI Strike Force!
Hi Andrew and all the involved, The idea is great. It will allow programming with a rewording feeling of depth to the exercise right from the start. However tackling some of the topics you mentioned, like GA, one first needs to develop new solid programming techniques that would circumvent Haskell's inbuilt reluctance to update variables distractively. I would myself wish to read a well documented study of using ST monad or finite maps to achieve this end. Perhaps then, your page should openly encourage the need to develop such brute force methods. Cheers, -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] AI Strike Force!
Hi Andrew and all the involved, The idea is great. It will allow programming with a rewording feeling of depth to the exercise right from the start. However tackling some of the topics you mentioned, like GA, one first needs to develop new solid programming techniques that would circumvent Haskell's inbuilt reluctance to update variables distractively. I would myself wish to read a well documented study of using ST monad or finite maps to achieve this end. Perhaps then, your page should openly encourage the need to develop such brute force methods. Cheers, -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] What ever happened to Haskell 98 as a stable branch?
If you answer because H98 is obsolete, then file this away as a must-read after H' is released Ideas always originate in a single mind. Good ideas are only footnotes to the best idea that determine them. Now: a team of people with different views on the same thing can achieve their best decorating a Christmas Tree. Unless, it is Haskell;-) Regards, -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Why the Prelude must die
I don't think he would be confused with functor in SML. Call functors static classes and you cut the language from intuition. In such language anybody can express anything. But to arrive at something one needs intuition! Now, what mathematically blind programmers can gain from learning about monad if they are taught that functor is a class? -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] What ever happened to Haskell 98 as a stablebranch?
Haskell is rather a Darwinian sort of place. With whole respect. You need two components for evolution to work: the survival of the fitness and Generator Of Diversity (GOD). Now, Haskell attracts originality and easily accommodates changes but nobody burns tires in testing anything so that complexity and learning curve grow while deficiencies remain dormant. Recent threads are a kind of healthy evolutionary pressure (survival of the fitness), but you insist that Haskell should be committed to GOD;-) With great respect, -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] What ever happened to Haskell 98 as a stablebranch?
Daniel Fischer has cared to inform me that: Diversity is generated by mutations. With due respect, but this is hardly a revelation. My point was that you need two competing components in relative balance to grow something meaningful. Cancer growth is based solely on mutation! Also I was not theological. It is the advice to multiply Prelude and use time to verify them rather cosmic in scale. It implies the assumption that the world will freeze and wait for the verdict. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Monad/Functor Book
Categories for the Working Mathematician a couple of months ago, and while it sometimes takes a bit of work it's a very good introduction. The only caution I have is that if you don't have that strong of a math background, or hadn't done it in a few years (like myself), you may have to lookup a lot of definitions in order to understand his examples. Wikipedia usually provides enough of a detailed description that you can get the point. Good lack to you but this is very bad advice. It is too much even for average mathematician. As a serious first read for CS guy I would recommend Categories for Types by Roy Crole. For short introduction: Basic Category Theory for Computer Scientists by Benjamin Pierce. The problem with learning CT lies in the large amount of mathematical intuition that is assumed. This intuition can be build by studing topology and algebra. Learning CT without this background is kind of a Turing test;-) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Monad/Functor Book
Haskell borrows from CT but it is too much engineered to be a model for computational CT. However you can study it with CT: http://www.cs.ut.ee/~varmo/papers/thesis.pdf ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Why the Prelude must die
On blessed Wed Mar 28 05:52:03 EDT 2007 Simon Marlow wrote: I support both reducing the prelude to just a few commonly used combinators, and requiring an explicit import Prelude. (...) So YOU are the GOD's angle with the sword! And thus we leave the orchard for a battlefield. I really like this:-) Holy regards, -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A wish for relaxed layout syntax
mylist = [ foo, bar, baz, qux, quux, foo, bar, baz, qux ] Good direction. Perhaps you can also figure out how to replace the disturbing $ operator? -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A wish for relaxed layout syntax
Perhaps you can also figure out how to replace the disturbing $ operator? Why is it disturbing? It is not that I am short on dollar or Eurofobic;-) It introduces sort of daub aesthetics to the code. Also for someone that puts strong emphases on notation signs should have some semiotic responsibility and shouldn't shout at you without having sufficient prominence. I wouldn't use this arguments with Perl programmers of course. Cheers -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A wish for relaxed layout syntax
Something out of Unicode? ≬⊳⌁⋆☕⚡‣‸‡⁏•△▴◆◇◊◬◢◮♘♣♲♪◖▻▿轢 Greg Buchholz Why not Braille alphabet? These guys at least don't complain;-) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: A wish for relaxed layout syntax
DavidA [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suggest in place of $. For example: h x = f g x I would feel better with : | Ideally, redesigning Haskell syntax for 21st century should take more scientific course. But with know-how here still much lagging we can only tap on experience with symbol manipulation in mathematics. For instance: construction of formulas should store some dynamics supportive for the underlying thought process. So for example f a b springs up no association while f(a, b) kick-starts the right thought. Cheers, -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: A question about functional dependencies andexistential
Are they for working around some problems of HM type systems or do they give Haskell super-language powers? I guess I could answer these questions if I understood what FD and GATDs are all about, but I'm not just there yet. :-) When you are done with furniture and decide to help us with abstract algebra then you will benefit from GADT. But curiosity shouldn't wait : http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pni/Papers/Notes/GADTs.html Perhaps the proverbial cat didn't know that:-) Cheers, -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Mutable variables eliminated from .NET | Lambda theUltimate
To ensure wide penetration of this significant update, Microsoft will be issuing updated Windows CDs to all licensed customers, free of charge. The new CDs can be identified by the distinctive holographic Haskell Inside logo, featuring a holographic version of this[1] portrait of Simon Peyton-Jones, grinning from ear to ear. From the operating theater point of view Haskell is a donor! In this scenario usually the recipients grin;-) -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Mathematics in Haskell Re: Why the Prelude must die
I too was put off by the Num issues though--strange mixture of sophisticated category theory and lack of a sensible hierarchy of algebraic objects. Perhaps we should replace CT with lattice theoretic thinking (e.g. functor = monotonic function) before cleaning up the type-related mess? See: http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/269479.html so count me in on an effort to make Haskell more mathematical. For me that probably starts with the semigroup/group/ring setup, and good arbitrary-precision as well as approximate linear algebra support. I agree: semigoups like lattices are everywhere. Then there could be a uniform treatment of linear algebra, polynomial equations, operator algebra, etc. So, perhaps haste is not a good advice here? -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Comments from OCaml Hacker Brian Hurt
If you called your girlfriend Kitten and on a mountain trip she broke her leg would cry/phone for help to treat your Kitten or would you use a stupid high-brow term woman? Or perhaps you would rename Washington Square for My Kitten Square ? There are hundreds programming languages designed by hackers, that is why I have chosen Haskell... ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Mathematics for Uninterested
Hi, After recent rant to Hell with Monoids and Mathematics I felt like Galileo awaiting execution. I splashed toilet several times but the rant was still there, so I decided to find a scapegoat for this malfunctioning. Of cours your mathematic teachers are to blame. They are the product of negative selection, guys useless for research, mathematics was hard for them so like ancient Egyptian priests used it as an edge over unenlightened crowd, right? I leave this to your conscience;-) Whatever the reason is, they have obviously failed to convince you that MATHEMATICS_IS_ABOUT_SIMPLIFYING_THINGS. MATHEMATICS = MATHEMATICAL_KNOWLEDGE + FORMAL_METHODS_of_THINKING You need only the second part for Haskell. - Then why Monoids and the rest? Isn't that knowledge? - It is knowledge without flesh as it is not tighten to any specific domain. Hence its simplicity and universality. Category Theory generalizes our mathematical experience along the line that we know more that we can prove. - Why generalizations derived along mathematical experience are superior to yours the hacker? - Because the time span between your one mistake or success and another mistake or success is too long for your brain to infer any structural relationship. Mathematicians using general concepts and powerful notation go way beyond human experience. - Why stick with mathematical names? - To have ample reference on them and to make people in different domains speak the same language. Still not convinced that abstraction is your friend? Let me give you a hint, the only prerequisite is to have 10 fingers:-) (0) Try to do some arithmetic without the concept of infinite set. Don't tell me that you can program calculator to do this. You would need axioms of arithmetic which you would never discover without your brain imagining infinite concatenation. (1) The same way you need Cartesian product for tuples as their ultimate holder. (2) The same way you need relational algebra to collect all manipulations of tables (and much more to map them in XML). (3) The same way you need Monoid to contain all Appendable and more. One of you asked if mathematical precision is good enough for programming. My friend, you used words that outside your body experience mean nothing. Take Topology which cannot tell the difference between the fork in your beefburger from that in your compost. You would not use it to calculate N-body problem, would you? But exactly such imprecise (qualitative) methods underpin recent dramatic improvements of precision in Mechanics. Totally imprecise improves precision! Without the high of mathematics our cognition is very misleading. Another of you shrugged over unimportant for him book on abstract algebra. Fine, but the book contains piece of flesh that brought to light methods for your Haskell. If you enjoy Haskell and want stronger feel of the methods this flesh will be your Holy Sacrament. Amen. Students at engineering have functional analysis in their curriculum which takes over 10 times longer to learn than your prerequisites for Haskell. But one of you made an excuse that engineers actually don't know this stuff. If that is so I will leave you with this thought experiment: suppose then that Dr.Wolfram goes crazy (e.g. falling sales) and decides to terminate this civilization by introducing a virus to his Mathematica upgrade... Be happy! ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Why monoids will abide...
Monads are monoids in categories of functors C - C Arrows are monoids in subcategories of bifunctors (C^op) x C - C Trees are a playing ground for functors in general:-) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Why monoids will abide...
Category Theory should speak for itself and I am so glad you guys have seen the beauty of this approach. Yes, Mauro you are right: locally small Freyd categories correspond to monoidal structure of Arrows, but the strength in this correspondence is as yet unknown to me. I disagree however with your doubts: Arrows indeed are Monoids! [in the functor category (C^op) x C - C with st, cost, ist.] I will skip Monoid ubiquity in linguistics and its relevance to concurrency as not helpful in learning Haskell. (e.g. http://www.springerlink.com/content/7281243255312730/?p=4dd8bba881cd4ebe894d3b014f01b1adpi=7) Instead I will issue a guarantee that the time invested in CT will pay also in system analysis, particularly in combination with Haskell type classes, which together might be used for describing real world processes and knowledge. Few have scratched the subject as yet but the pay-off is huge. Let me also suggest to bestow the official guru status on Dan Piponi and Heinrich Apfelmus:-) Cheers, -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] The future of purely functional user interfaces?
Yes, it is something unhealthy to seat on a bunch of far reaching ideas and still use artifact that even Microsoft tries to shake off (outsourcing their Office XML Ribbons). But as recent roar about monoids have shown - those who are Haskell most productive programmers are also most unlikely to tap on anything theoretical. Researchers on the other hand wouldn't be who they are if they thought mainly in terms of code. Perhaps some new model of cooperation between a researcher and a group of volunteers should be worked out. Other work [4] seems to indicate that arrows are too general for the dataflow programming and co-monads are more suitable and hence might be usable for interactive interfaces. I would be careful with moderating ambition here. It should be extremely open framework that could allow to accommodate all present experimental (mostly reactive) stuff but also allow close integration with functional database in the future. The GUI should also lower overheads for Geometric Algebra. I think that in the future GA, fractals and wavelets will be inbuilt on graphic cards and GUI might take a role of a sort of a synthesizer. But of course anything functional would open lots of new possibilities and give us a lot of fun. Cheers, Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: [Haskell] Google Summer of Code 2009
If you have ideas for student projects that you think would benefit the Haskell community, now is the time to start discussing them on mailing Here is an idea that if done right might bootstrap Haskell real world applications with the help of greed and adrenaline:-) The ignition: (0) Bind Haskell to an automatic trading platform [API] (1) write real-time streamer and stock scanner. [PType] should offer more than was demonstrated in [F#] (2) Join [apps] from any angle (3) Consider a [DSL] for data analysis or write an [EasyLanguage] [API] http://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/p.php?f=programInterfaceib_entity=llc [F#] http://channel9.msdn.com/pdc2008/TL11/ [PType] http://research.nii.ac.jp/~hu/pub/aplas04-xu.pdf [apps] http://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/general/poll/ibconsultants.php?accept_disclaimer=Tib_entity=llc [DSL] http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~saswat/research/one.pdf [EasyLanguage] https://www.tradestation.com/support/books/pdf/EL_Essentials.pdf https://www.tradestation.com/support/books/pdf/EL_FunctionsAndReservedWords_Ref.pdf ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Google Summer of Code 2009
If you have ideas for student projects that you think would benefit the Haskell community, now is the time to start discussing them on mailing Here is an idea that if done right might bootstrap Haskell real world applications with the help of greed and adrenaline:-) The ignition: (0) Bind Haskell to an automatic trading platform [API] (1) write real-time streamer and stock scanner. [PType] should offer more than was demonstrated in [F#] (2) Join [apps] from any angle (3) Consider a [DSL] for data analysis or write an [EasyLanguage] [API] http://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/p.php?f=programInterfaceib_entity=llc [F#] http://channel9.msdn.com/pdc2008/TL11/ [PType] http://research.nii.ac.jp/~hu/pub/aplas04-xu.pdf [apps] http://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/general/poll/ibconsultants.php?accept_disclaimer=Tib_entity=llc [DSL] http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~saswat/research/one.pdf [EasyLanguage] https://www.tradestation.com/support/books/pdf/EL_Essentials.pdf https://www.tradestation.com/support/books/pdf/EL_FunctionsAndReservedWords_Ref.pdf ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
