Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
In f255efe0ecf08c4a9c1db6aff42354170ea81...@ch2wpmail1.na.ds.ussco.com, on 03/02/2010 at 06:51 AM, Chase, John jch...@ussco.com said: IIRC, it wasn't called Warp until v4.. For small values of 4. The shrinkwrap sequence ran 2.1, Warp 3, Warp Connect, Warp 4. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
In 4b8d1cbe.4080...@bremultibank.com.pl, on 03/02/2010 at 03:12 PM, R.S. r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl said: However I absolutely don't remember any BLUE screen on OS/2, Would you settle for a blue box? ;-) -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
Hello all, I have two machines with OS/2 V 3 still running, and it is not called WARP, but there was a version V3 already called WARP, too, AFAIK. (The machines are from 1997 and 1999, by the way, and they still have the original IBM SCSI drives, no problems so far). The blue screen is not blue with OS/2, but black and white instead, and it contains TRAP 00x messages, followed by a dump of several hardware registers. I saw it some times in the last 15 years (less than 10 times, due to hardware problems normally). Kind regards Bernd (OS/2 user from 1993 to 2010 - still using it) R.S. schrieb: Richards, Robert B. pisze: John, I had heart bypass...what's your excuse? :-) You remember incorrectly, unless this Wiki entry is wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS/2 AFAIR Warp was used for v3. However I absolutely don't remember any BLUE screen on OS/2, except some screensaver. I saw several times crashed OS/2, but no blue screen. Did I miss something? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
Slightly OT, but I was in Rome a few weekends ago (to watch England vs Italy Rugby match) and we tried to get train tickets from the airport to the City ... The automatic machine we were using froze and then gave us the Blue Screen of Death It then rebooted itself and up came OS2 Warp V3 ( ... I think it was V3 ... ( a few sherberts had been consumed on the plane !! .. :-) ) ... Brian Westerman brian_wester...@syzygyinc.com Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu 02/03/2010 08:57 AM Please respond to IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu To IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu cc Subject Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe ... I think you would be surprised how many sites are still running old hardware and software. Brian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html This e-mail message, including any attachments transmitted with it, is CONFIDENTIAL and may contain legally privileged information. This message is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and delete it from your system. Please visit our website to read the full disclaimer: http://www.euroclear.com/site/public/disclaimer
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
Peter Nuttall pisze: Slightly OT, but I was in Rome a few weekends ago (to watch England vs Italy Rugby match) and we tried to get train tickets from the airport to the City ... The automatic machine we were using froze and then gave us the Blue Screen of Death It then rebooted itself and up came OS2 Warp V3 ( ... I think it was V3 ... ( a few sherberts had been consumed on the plane !! .. :-) ) ... I see nothing wrong in that. The device you described was probably produced many moons ago. It's not new, but it's still working. No need to replace the device, no need to upgrade it. Last but not least: the license for OS/2 is OTC type - already paid, no monthly bills. I guess that new devices do not run OS/2 any longer. BTW: Sometimes the obsolete version of software or age of hardware is not an issue, but the system can be still ridiculous. Example: z9BC running 30+ years old application under z/OS. Funny? Not yet. However the application is really simple and has no strong requirements for RAS. Other companies using the same application moved to single PC (yes!) or small LAN painlessly. Many years ago. What is ridiculous? To pay for the mainframe and z/OS while regular PC would be sufficient. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2009 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci wpacony) wynosi 118.763.528 zotych. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchway XXI WZ z dnia 16 marca 2008r., oraz uchway XVI NWZ z dnia 27 padziernika 2008r., moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 123.763.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym BRE Banku SA bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Peter Nuttall Slightly OT, but I was in Rome a few weekends ago (to watch England vs Italy Rugby match) and we tried to get train tickets from the airport to the City ... The automatic machine we were using froze and then gave us the Blue Screen of Death It then rebooted itself and up came OS2 Warp V3 ( ... I think it was V3 ... ( a few sherberts had been consumed on the plane !! .. :-) ) ... IIRC, it wasn't called Warp until v4.. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
John, I had heart bypass...what's your excuse? :-) You remember incorrectly, unless this Wiki entry is wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS/2 Bob -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Chase, John Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 7:51 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Peter Nuttall Slightly OT, but I was in Rome a few weekends ago (to watch England vs Italy Rugby match) and we tried to get train tickets from the airport to the City ... The automatic machine we were using froze and then gave us the Blue Screen of Death It then rebooted itself and up came OS2 Warp V3 ( ... I think it was V3 ... ( a few sherberts had been consumed on the plane !! .. :-) ) ... IIRC, it wasn't called Warp until v4.. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
Richards, Robert B. pisze: John, I had heart bypass...what's your excuse? :-) You remember incorrectly, unless this Wiki entry is wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS/2 AFAIR Warp was used for v3. However I absolutely don't remember any BLUE screen on OS/2, except some screensaver. I saw several times crashed OS/2, but no blue screen. Did I miss something? -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2009 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci wpacony) wynosi 118.763.528 zotych. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchway XXI WZ z dnia 16 marca 2008r., oraz uchway XVI NWZ z dnia 27 padziernika 2008r., moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 123.763.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym BRE Banku SA bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
There are actually sites still running 4381's and MVS/XA. I converted two of them (MVS/XA and MVS/ESA) over to a z/9 and z/10 just last year and we have been contacted by sites still running 967x's and Multiprise systems that have yet to convert. I would be interested in getting some of this old hardware* that still is running, or even dead and pushed into the corner of the data center. So, listmembers, if you have an old 43x1 with 3380s and other 80s era stuff like this, please don't call the scrapper yet! And of course older stuff as well is always welcome. * and docs and software, of course, which eventually gets to Al at bitsavers and CHM. -- Will -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. subject of thread from last year (in this mailing list): Secret Service plans IT reboot http://fcw.com/Articles/2009/10/19/Web-Secret-Service-IT-modernization.aspx from above: According to the RFI, the service's existing IT infrastructure is outdated and at risk of failing. Forty-two mission-oriented applications run on a 1980s IBM mainframe with a 68 percent performance reliability rating, it said. In addition, data systems and IT security don't meet requirements, the service said. ... snip ... misc. past posts in that thread; http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009p.html#11 Secret Service plans IT reboot http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009p.html#12 Secret Service plans IT reboot http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009p.html#13 Secret Service plans IT reboot http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009p.html#18 Secret Service plans IT reboot -- 42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
snip Wonder what the real story is here -- a 9370 in a closet? http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-secret-service-outdated-computer-mainf rame-system-1980s/story?id=9945663 /snip And how many Dem budget cuts prevented a more timely upgrade? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
Please keep your political comments to yourself. This is not an appropriate venue. Jon L. Veilleux veilleu...@aetna.com (860) 636-9179 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Staller, Allan Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:43 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe snip Wonder what the real story is here -- a 9370 in a closet? http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-secret-service-outdated-computer-mainf rame-system-1980s/story?id=9945663 /snip And how many Dem budget cuts prevented a more timely upgrade? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html This e-mail may contain confidential or privileged information. If you think you have received this e-mail in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this e-mail immediately. Thank you. Aetna -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
Let's keep the politics out of the Listserv discussions, because it'll get very ugly! -Original Message- From: Staller, Allan [mailto:allan.stal...@kbm1.com] Sent: Monday, March 1, 2010 08:42 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe Wonder what the real story is here -- a 9370 in a closet?http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-secret-service-outdated-computer-mainframe-system-1980s/story?id=9945663And how many Dem budget cuts prevented a more timely upgrade?--For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFOSearch the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
Keep your silly political wise cracks to yourself, that is not appropriate here. Staller, Allan allan.stal...@kbm1.com 3/1/2010 8:42 AM snip Wonder what the real story is here -- a 9370 in a closet? http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-secret-service-outdated-computer-mainf rame-system-1980s/story?id=9945663 /snip And how many Dem budget cuts prevented a more timely upgrade? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html CONFIDENTIALITY/EMAIL NOTICE: The material in this transmission contains confidential and privileged information intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please be advised that you have received this material in error and that any forwarding, copying, printing, distribution, use or disclosure of the material is strictly prohibited. If you have received this material in error, please (i) do not read it, (ii) reply to the sender that you received the message in error, and (iii) erase or destroy the material. Emails are not secure and can be intercepted, amended, lost or destroyed, or contain viruses. You are deemed to have accepted these risks if you communicate with us by email. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
Speaking as someone who has firsthand knowledge (but not with Secret Service) of using 1980s mainframes (yes the hardware, not just the applications) in government as late as 3 years ago when the system was finally taken offline, budget is most likely not the issue. If someone who built the system is still around keeping it running, they have a tendency to fight tooth and nail to keep it from being replaced. Government employees don't always have the same incentives to keep their skills up to date as in the private sector, and will oftentimes feel threatened by the new. Retirements have replaced more antiquated IT systems in government than anything else. It has also been one of the bigger incentives to use what we actually have available, like Unix services, etc... Frank Finley, CISSP Information System Security Officer Pay and Personnel Center -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Staller, Allan Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 7:43 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe snip Wonder what the real story is here -- a 9370 in a closet? http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-secret-service-outdated-computer-mainf rame-system-1980s/story?id=9945663 /snip And how many Dem budget cuts prevented a more timely upgrade? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
On 1 Mar 2010 06:03:06 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: Let's keep the politics out of the Listserv discussions, because it'll get very ugly! -Original Message- From: Staller, Allan [mailto:allan.stal...@kbm1.com] Sent: Monday, March 1, 2010 08:42 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe Wonder what the real story is here -- a 9370 in a closet?http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-secret-service-outdated-computer-mainframe-system-1980s/story?id=9945663And how many Dem budget cuts prevented a more timely upgrade?--For We don't know much about what is going on here. The problem is probably more bureaucracy dependent than anything else (and by bureaucracy I mean normal office politics that exist in ANY administration and in PRIVATE enterprise). Depending on the application they may have felt no need to upgrade because if you are doing the same thing the same way and the thing works, why spend money? This has been supposedly going on long enough that it spans Democratic presidencies with Democratic congresses, Democratic presidencies with Republican congresses, Republican presidencies with Democratic congresses and Republican presidencies with Republican congresses. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
there was something about after (7 years ago today), secret service was absorbed into dept. homeland security ... something like 1/3rd of secret service budget found its way elsewhere. -- 42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
I would be interested in finding out what the real hardware and opsys is that these reporters are so disdainful of. And it would be fun for a community of reasonable experts in computing (IBM-MAIN, IBMVM, etc) to review and critique the modernization plans. Are they going to a z10? Windows 2003? Linux/x86? /Tom Kern Anne Lynn Wheeler wrote: there was something about after (7 years ago today), secret service was absorbed into dept. homeland security ... something like 1/3rd of secret service budget found its way elsewhere. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
I think you would be surprised how many sites are still running old hardware and software. Not counting the people still running ESA and OS/390 under VM on a z/800 or brand new z/9 or z/10. There are actually sites still running 4381's and MVS/XA. I converted two of them (MVS/XA and MVS/ESA) over to a z/9 and z/10 just last year and we have been contacted by sites still running 967x's and Multiprise systems that have yet to convert. We have a waiting list of people who want to convert, (although not super large, it is several months backlogged). Sometimes it is a budget sort of thing (at least they feel it is), but in some cases it's fear that their code won't run on another platform or OS level. You would also be surprised how many are afraid that because they know that they don't have all of the code for their software (user code, vendor code, lost over the years), that they didn't even try to convert. In several cases over the past few years, it had actually been that the sites were frightened (hopefully inadvertently) by their own IBM reps away from converting. Normally it's very inexpensive to convert (the savings in hardware and software tend to be fairly high for them, especially considering the performance boost), but some consultants and vendors (IBM included) will tend to try to scare them into thinking it will cost a arm and a leg, and when it backfires because the site backs away from a large cost, the vendor (or consulting company), can never go back and say that they were wrong, so they just leave the client thinking that the cost is prohibitive. It's kind of funny (in a sad way), but we have had a few sites tell us that they didn't want us to convert them because it seems too inexpensive,and they felt something had to be missing. Sometimes you just can't explain to them that it doesn't take a really long time or won't cost a HUGE amount of money and it's difficult for them to accept that they were lied to originally because then you have the problem that they feel stupid, and instead of taking it out on the people who lied to them, they now focus the pain and anger on you, because you have shown them that they could have acted otherwise. It's a very touchy subject. Some of these places are quite large. It's always easy to laugh at them, but in a lot of cases, it's really a big concern that weighs on them heavily. I can normally show the sites how to get from A to B without the pain, but some of them still want to hang on to the old hardware/software and their reasons are not always valid, in fact, in most cases they aren't logically valid, but logic doesn't always come into play when the sites have been told by people they trusted that the world might end if they tried to convert. Until they are ready to go, I can only try to keep them moving forward, and it's really hard for some of them. They have been justifying their position so long that they sometimes don't even really remember why they have not converted. Brian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
Wonder what the real story is here -- a 9370 in a closet? http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-secret-service-outdated-computer-mainframe-system-1980s/story?id=9945663 -- zMan -- I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
On 02/27/2010 08:19 AM, zMan wrote: Wonder what the real story is here -- a 9370 in a closet? http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-secret-service-outdated-computer-mainframe-system-1980s/story?id=9945663 9370 is probably giving it too much credit. And the standard is 98%? Sad. When I had a real job, and measured CICS uptime the goal was 99%, which was consistently exceeded. And this was on a VSE/ESA system (oh yeah, zDOS... sheesh ). -- Rich Smrcina Phone: 414-491-6001 http://www.linkedin.com/in/richsmrcina Catch the WAVV! http://www.wavv.org WAVV 2010 - Apr 9-13, 2010 Covington, KY -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe
- Original Message - From: zMan zedgarhoo...@gmail.com Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:19 AM Subject: More calumny: Secret Service Uses 1980s Mainframe Wonder what the real story is here -- a 9370 in a closet? My guess would be a 9672 running some flavor of OS/390. 1980's and we're talking 3083 on MVS/XA (really?). Regards, Tom Conley -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
