Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009, jval...@eoni.com wrote: Mark Krenz wrote: 7. PHP Cookbook from 2006 Has mixed examples, some using ereg and some using preg_match In PHP Cookbook, the only use of ereg I found was in the section where the books was explaining how to convert from ereg to preg_match. Or an occasional mention that said you could do it with ereg but preg_match was better. But, I might have missed something. No. You are correct. We switched over all the examples to preg when we revised the book for the second edition. As we said in the introduction to our Regular Expressions chapter: In general, there's no longer any reason to use the ereg functions. We also included a Recipe for converting from ereg to preg, including how to use addcslashes() to escape your delimiter, and dechex() when you're using an integer instead of a string as an input value for a pattern or replacement (a valid, and highly useful case in some instances, but very esoteric for most programs). So, yes, there is some work that needs to be done to upgrade scripts, and, yes, there are some dank corner cases, but they are relatively straight forward to go after, shed light on, and clean up. As someone who had to convert legacy code from PHP/FI to PHP 3, when PHP changed its string contactenation operator, of all things, I can say that subbing ereg() for preg() is an easier transition, especially when it has the value of letting PHP 6 seamlessly support Unicode. -adam -- a...@trachtenberg.com | http://www.trachtenberg.com author of o'reilly's upgrading to php 5 and php cookbook avoid the holiday rush, buy your copies today! -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
It was fat, slow and everything that you can do with POSIX regex you can easily do with PCRE regex, which is faster. It is a decision forever. Do not expect it to come on PHP 5.4 (?) or PHP 6. Cheers, On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Mark Krenz m...@suso.org wrote: I just found this out a couple days ago when I checked the ereg manual page for something and was shocked. I searched around a bit but couldn't find a straight answer on why this function is being removed? Did the deprecation notice just get made in 5.3 or has it been there longer than that? Thanks, Mark -- Mark S. Krenz IT Director Suso Technology Services, Inc. http://suso.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9215-8480 MSN: guilhermebla...@hotmail.com URL: http://blog.bisna.com São Paulo - SP/Brazil -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
The real answer is that there is no Unicode support in the ereg functions, and like it or not, the world is going Unicode. -Rasmus Guilherme Blanco wrote: It was fat, slow and everything that you can do with POSIX regex you can easily do with PCRE regex, which is faster. It is a decision forever. Do not expect it to come on PHP 5.4 (?) or PHP 6. Cheers, On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Mark Krenz m...@suso.org wrote: I just found this out a couple days ago when I checked the ereg manual page for something and was shocked. I searched around a bit but couldn't find a straight answer on why this function is being removed? Did the deprecation notice just get made in 5.3 or has it been there longer than that? Thanks, Mark -- Mark S. Krenz IT Director Suso Technology Services, Inc. http://suso.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Guilherme Blanco wrote: It was fat, slow and everything that you can do with POSIX regex you can easily do with PCRE regex, which is faster. It is a decision forever. Do not expect it to come on PHP 5.4 (?) or PHP 6. Cheers, On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Mark Krenz m...@suso.org wrote: I just found this out a couple days ago when I checked the ereg manual page for something and was shocked. I searched around a bit but couldn't find a straight answer on why this function is being removed? Did the deprecation notice just get made in 5.3 or has it been there longer than that? Just to add... I've found many regular expressions to evaluate an order of magnitude faster via preg than via ereg. The speed difference is well worth your time switching to preg. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Ok, let me first say that I have no problem with deprecating it in favor of PCRE. Being a heavy Perl developer too, I'm more used to PCRE syntax anyways so it will be easier to only remember one syntax between languages. Secondly, I've been using PHP since version 2 and as far as I can remember ereg and the POSIX regex syntax has been in PHP for that long if not as long as PHP has existed. Deprecating functionality in software is tricky enough when its a minor function, but when its a major function in a major programming language it is something entirely different. Removing a function because its fat, slow and doesn't have unicode support isn't enough of a justification for removing a major function like ereg that is used in probably 90% of all PHP applications. If there was some kind of security issue that couldn't be fixed without removing it then that would be different, but from what you said I don't think there is. PHP 6 already has some major changes to it that will affect many people and slow its adoption. Removing ereg might kill adoption of it altogether or run the risk of PHP being forked. My suggestion is that you delay removal of the function until PHP 7 or even 8. This will give people a lot more time to learn about change and most major app developers will find out about it and make the change. Also, distributions that package PHP will have at least a couple minor versions released prior to it being removed, which I think is VERY important. Please, let's discuss this. Mark On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 03:51:48PM GMT, Guilherme Blanco [guilhermebla...@gmail.com] said the following: It was fat, slow and everything that you can do with POSIX regex you can easily do with PCRE regex, which is faster. It is a decision forever. Do not expect it to come on PHP 5.4 (?) or PHP 6. Cheers, On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Mark Krenz m...@suso.org wrote: I just found this out a couple days ago when I checked the ereg manual page for something and was shocked. I searched around a bit but couldn't find a straight answer on why this function is being removed? Did the deprecation notice just get made in 5.3 or has it been there longer than that? Thanks, Mark -- Mark S. Krenz IT Director Suso Technology Services, Inc. http://suso.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9215-8480 MSN: guilhermebla...@hotmail.com URL: http://blog.bisna.com São Paulo - SP/Brazil -- Mark S. Krenz IT Director Suso Technology Services, Inc. http://suso.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Lack of Unicode support is enough of a problem in that PHP6 will be all Unicode all the time, so these functions simply won't work as they are today. It would take someone sitting down and figuring out how to emulate this stuff in a way that makes sense in a Unicode world for them to come back, and unless we get a volunteer to do that, they are gone. It is not a question of simply leaving in what we have today. It technically won't work. -Rasmus Mark Krenz wrote: Ok, let me first say that I have no problem with deprecating it in favor of PCRE. Being a heavy Perl developer too, I'm more used to PCRE syntax anyways so it will be easier to only remember one syntax between languages. Secondly, I've been using PHP since version 2 and as far as I can remember ereg and the POSIX regex syntax has been in PHP for that long if not as long as PHP has existed. Deprecating functionality in software is tricky enough when its a minor function, but when its a major function in a major programming language it is something entirely different. Removing a function because its fat, slow and doesn't have unicode support isn't enough of a justification for removing a major function like ereg that is used in probably 90% of all PHP applications. If there was some kind of security issue that couldn't be fixed without removing it then that would be different, but from what you said I don't think there is. PHP 6 already has some major changes to it that will affect many people and slow its adoption. Removing ereg might kill adoption of it altogether or run the risk of PHP being forked. My suggestion is that you delay removal of the function until PHP 7 or even 8. This will give people a lot more time to learn about change and most major app developers will find out about it and make the change. Also, distributions that package PHP will have at least a couple minor versions released prior to it being removed, which I think is VERY important. Please, let's discuss this. Mark On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 03:51:48PM GMT, Guilherme Blanco [guilhermebla...@gmail.com] said the following: It was fat, slow and everything that you can do with POSIX regex you can easily do with PCRE regex, which is faster. It is a decision forever. Do not expect it to come on PHP 5.4 (?) or PHP 6. Cheers, On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Mark Krenz m...@suso.org wrote: I just found this out a couple days ago when I checked the ereg manual page for something and was shocked. I searched around a bit but couldn't find a straight answer on why this function is being removed? Did the deprecation notice just get made in 5.3 or has it been there longer than that? Thanks, Mark -- Mark S. Krenz IT Director Suso Technology Services, Inc. http://suso.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9215-8480 MSN: guilhermebla...@hotmail.com URL: http://blog.bisna.com São Paulo - SP/Brazil -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Just to clarify. You mean that with the changes you've made for Unicode support in PHP 6, that current POSIX based ereg expressions will not work the same? On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 04:18:29PM GMT, Rasmus Lerdorf [ras...@lerdorf.com] said the following: Lack of Unicode support is enough of a problem in that PHP6 will be all Unicode all the time, so these functions simply won't work as they are today. It would take someone sitting down and figuring out how to emulate this stuff in a way that makes sense in a Unicode world for them to come back, and unless we get a volunteer to do that, they are gone. It is not a question of simply leaving in what we have today. It technically won't work. -Rasmus Mark Krenz wrote: Ok, let me first say that I have no problem with deprecating it in favor of PCRE. Being a heavy Perl developer too, I'm more used to PCRE syntax anyways so it will be easier to only remember one syntax between languages. Secondly, I've been using PHP since version 2 and as far as I can remember ereg and the POSIX regex syntax has been in PHP for that long if not as long as PHP has existed. Deprecating functionality in software is tricky enough when its a minor function, but when its a major function in a major programming language it is something entirely different. Removing a function because its fat, slow and doesn't have unicode support isn't enough of a justification for removing a major function like ereg that is used in probably 90% of all PHP applications. If there was some kind of security issue that couldn't be fixed without removing it then that would be different, but from what you said I don't think there is. PHP 6 already has some major changes to it that will affect many people and slow its adoption. Removing ereg might kill adoption of it altogether or run the risk of PHP being forked. My suggestion is that you delay removal of the function until PHP 7 or even 8. This will give people a lot more time to learn about change and most major app developers will find out about it and make the change. Also, distributions that package PHP will have at least a couple minor versions released prior to it being removed, which I think is VERY important. Please, let's discuss this. Mark On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 03:51:48PM GMT, Guilherme Blanco [guilhermebla...@gmail.com] said the following: It was fat, slow and everything that you can do with POSIX regex you can easily do with PCRE regex, which is faster. It is a decision forever. Do not expect it to come on PHP 5.4 (?) or PHP 6. Cheers, On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Mark Krenz m...@suso.org wrote: I just found this out a couple days ago when I checked the ereg manual page for something and was shocked. I searched around a bit but couldn't find a straight answer on why this function is being removed? Did the deprecation notice just get made in 5.3 or has it been there longer than that? Thanks, Mark -- Mark S. Krenz IT Director Suso Technology Services, Inc. http://suso.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9215-8480 MSN: guilhermebla...@hotmail.com URL: http://blog.bisna.com São Paulo - SP/Brazil -- Mark S. Krenz IT Director Suso Technology Services, Inc. http://suso.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
hi, On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Mark Krenz m...@suso.org wrote: Just to clarify. You mean that with the changes you've made for Unicode support in PHP 6, that current POSIX based ereg expressions will not work the same? The ereg functions cannot work with Unicode and can't be fixed without rewriting them. Nobody likes to do it as pcre works just fine and has many active maintainers (inside and outside php). Cheers, -- Pierre http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 04:27:02PM GMT, Pierre Joye [pierre@gmail.com] said the following: The ereg functions cannot work with Unicode and can't be fixed without rewriting them. Nobody likes to do it as pcre works just fine and has many active maintainers (inside and outside php). But I'm willing to bet that the majority of people are using ereg, not PCRE. I've known about PCRE in PHP for a while now, but I continue to use ereg because I thought it had better support in PHP and that it was the more official function. Guess I was wrong. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought this. Again, this isn't a debate on which is better, I only want to STRONGLY stress that I think its a big mistake to remove it in 6.0. If you wanted to remove it in 6.0, you should have sent out the deprecated warning in the whole 5.0 series, not just 5.3, which most people don't even use. If nobody simply wants to do the work to make sure ereg is ready for PHP 6 and unicode support, then you are not doing your job. I hate to call it a job because I'm sure that you all enjoy doing PHP development, but there are times when you have to bite the bullet and do the hard work because its your responsibility to do so. If your only defense when the army of developers come banging at your door about why ereg doesn't work anymore is that you didn't feel like doing the work, PHP is going to lose a lot of support and you as developers will lose a lot of respect. I feel like I shouldn't even have to tell you this, you develop a programming language that is known by millions and runs web apps that are used by the whole Internet. If ereg isn't ready yet then 6.0 should be delayed until it is ready. Somehow I doubt that you'd have trouble finding volunteers to do the work if they know what was at stake. There are probably a lot of people out there perhaps even on this list that would love to show off their chops by submitting some piece of code that will get them noticed. If those of you that have responded are not willing to do the work, then open it up for review by others. Send out a call for volunteers. Maybe my inquiry will spark some interest. Imagine being able to say that you were the one that saved the ereg function. -- Mark S. Krenz IT Director Suso Technology Services, Inc. http://suso.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Wow, you sure do assume a lot of things about PHP and its development community. I have never seen your name on this list before and (now I am assuming) do not know the state of development of PHP6 (as in that its more or less on halt until someone gets things going again). On 12.10.2009, at 18:57, Mark Krenz wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 04:27:02PM GMT, Pierre Joye [pierre@gmail.com ] said the following: The ereg functions cannot work with Unicode and can't be fixed without rewriting them. Nobody likes to do it as pcre works just fine and has many active maintainers (inside and outside php). But I'm willing to bet that the majority of people are using ereg, not PCRE. I've known about PCRE in PHP for a while now, but I continue to use ereg because I thought it had better support in PHP and that it was the more official function. Guess I was wrong. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought this. Maybe try to substantiate that argument with a google code search or something. Personally I have seen quite the opposite, then again I have been actively encouraging people to use preg since about 5 or more years now. Again, this isn't a debate on which is better, I only want to STRONGLY stress that I think its a big mistake to remove it in 6.0. If you wanted to remove it in 6.0, you should have sent out the deprecated warning in the whole 5.0 series, not just 5.3, which most people don't even use. If nobody simply wants to do the work to make sure ereg is ready for PHP 6 and unicode support, then you are not doing your job. I hate to call it a job because I'm sure that you all enjoy doing PHP development, but there are times when you have to bite the bullet and do the hard work because its your responsibility to do so. Our job for the most of us is to convince our boss's that the time we spend on company time is a worthwhile investment. There are of course people who work on PHP for fun in their spare time .. not sure if job fits the description for stuff they want to do. Anyways, that doesnt mean that either of the two mentioned groups of developers isnt doing a lot of boring tedious work for PHP as it is. I feel like I shouldn't even have to tell you this, you develop a programming language that is known by millions and runs web apps that are used by the whole Internet. Well the whole internet hasnt setup a donation box to pay for developers to work on stuff like this full time. If ereg isn't ready yet then 6.0 should be delayed until it is ready. Somehow I doubt that you'd have trouble finding volunteers to do the work if they know what was at stake. There are probably a lot of people out there perhaps even on this list that would love to show off their chops by submitting some piece of code that will get them noticed. If those of you that have responded are not willing to do the work, then open it up for review by others. Send out a call for volunteers. Maybe my inquiry will spark some interest. Imagine being able to say that you were the one that saved the ereg function. Well again an assumption .. no we do not have enough developers to do all the cool things we can think up and still fix bugs, document stuff etc. Feel free to step up .. but it makes no sense to start a php.net plea for help to get something ported to PHP6, where we will have a perfectly fine alternative. regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith m...@pooteeweet.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Mark Krenz wrote: But I'm willing to bet that the majority of people are using ereg, not PCRE. I've known about PCRE in PHP for a while now, but I continue to use ereg because I thought it had better support in PHP and that it was the more official function. Guess I was wrong. I'm sure I'm not the I guess that's exactly the reason why it is deprecated now: To indicate that preg_* are the way to go. Again, this isn't a debate on which is better, I only want to STRONGLY stress that I think its a big mistake to remove it in 6.0. If you wanted As far as I understand ereg will be moved to a PECL-extension to keep it around for people who can't switch. If ereg isn't ready yet then 6.0 should be delayed until it is ready. It probably never will be... Don't get too worked up on this because (as far as I understand the messages on internals) PHP 6 will not be a drop-in replacement for PHP 5.3 anyway. Hosters will have to configure it (like installing the PECL-extension), developers will have to adapt some code. I'm not sure if I'm right but that's how I understand the plans, - Chris -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Mark Krenz m...@suso.org wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 04:27:02PM GMT, Pierre Joye [pierre@gmail.com] said the following: The ereg functions cannot work with Unicode and can't be fixed without rewriting them. Nobody likes to do it as pcre works just fine and has many active maintainers (inside and outside php). But I'm willing to bet that the majority of people are using ereg, not PCRE. I've known about PCRE in PHP for a while now, but I continue to use ereg because I thought it had better support in PHP and that it was the more official function. Guess I was wrong. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought this. Let me use another example to make you understand the situation. I bought a car, which is great, I can repair it myself, can drive anywhere I want, etc. 50 years later, the gaz reserve are out (bio gaz etc. as well). I can STRONGLY stress anyone in the world to make my car works with the new combustible, that won't help, my car simply does not work with the new combustible. I have now two choices: 1. adapt myself and walk more (or buy a new car) 2. patch my car to work with the new combustible and provide it to the cars developers so everyone else can enjoy the old cars for the next decade. Please note that I knew for years that I won't find gaz anymore at some point. Shorter version: Topics have been discussed to death, move on, nothing to see. Cheers, -- Pierre http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On 12.10.2009, at 19:12, Pierre Joye wrote: Shorter version: Topics have been discussed to death, move on, nothing to see. actually in the spirit of how i documented the decision about ifsetor() [1] and the fact that contrary to popular opinion, the time of core devs is limited, it would be nice of someone would document the points raised by with sides about the deprecation of ereg in 5.3 and the removal in 6.0. regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith m...@pooteeweet.org [1] http://pooteeweet.org/blog/1200 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
This thread inspired me to google for a POSIX to PCRE converter. I found a thread from this list from 2002: http://marc.info/?l=php-internalsm=103625548402350w=2 Ilia proposed a patch that would replace the ereg library with code that would allow an ereg userland call to be processed with the PCRE library (if I've understood the 2002 post correctly). I'm not complaining about dropping ereg nor taking a position on whether many or few would complain about dropping ereg. I just wanted to point out some past work that might be applicable lest someone start from scratch. BTW, thank you to all who have contributed to php. - Todd -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009, Mark Krenz wrote: Again, this isn't a debate on which is better, I only want to STRONGLY stress that I think its a big mistake to remove it in 6.0. The ereg library doesn't handle unicode so it can simply not work. If nobody simply wants to do the work to make sure ereg is ready for PHP 6 and unicode support, then you are not doing your job. I hate to call it a job because I'm sure that you all enjoy doing PHP development, but there are times when you have to bite the bullet and do the hard work because its your responsibility to do so. Patches welcome. Derick -- http://derickrethans.nl | http://ezcomponents.org | http://xdebug.org twitter: @derickr -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote: On Mon, 12 Oct 2009, Mark Krenz wrote: Again, this isn't a debate on which is better, I only want to STRONGLY stress that I think its a big mistake to remove it in 6.0. The ereg library doesn't handle unicode so it can simply not work. If nobody simply wants to do the work to make sure ereg is ready for PHP 6 and unicode support, then you are not doing your job. I hate to call it a job because I'm sure that you all enjoy doing PHP development, but there are times when you have to bite the bullet and do the hard work because its your responsibility to do so. Patches welcome. Derick -- http://derickrethans.nl | http://ezcomponents.org | http://xdebug.org twitter: @derickr -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php PHP is the most popular web-development language and it would continue to remain in that position for a very long time. I don't think that if ereg is not longer bundled with PHP this will have any effect in the number of PHP users. There exists a very large number of PHP users around the world; however, there is a significantly smaller and more miniscual number of people who actually design and maintain PHP and its extensions. It is important to stress that the PHP language is maintained by VOLUNTEERS who are committed and dedicated to seeing that PHP continues to prosper while maintaining high quality. Change is something that most people struggle with. As Pierre Joye suggested, just because there are lot of people driving clunkers does not mean we have to keep using clunkers. If there exist a faster, better and more efficient alternative, please adapt. Respect is reciprocal; please be nice to these volunteers because not only are you not paying them but no one else is either. Removing ereg from PHP might seem Cold Turkey but at this time that is the wiser thing to do. It's time for the clunker to go. -- Good Enough is not good enough. To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift. Quality First. Measure Twice. Cut Once.
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Christian Schneider a écrit : Mark Krenz wrote: But I'm willing to bet that the majority of people are using ereg, not PCRE. I've known about PCRE in PHP for a while now, but I continue to use ereg because I thought it had better support in PHP and that it was the more official function. Guess I was wrong. I'm sure I'm not the I guess that's exactly the reason why it is deprecated now: To indicate that preg_* are the way to go. And as far as I know, using ereg_* function is discouraged in the documentation since PHP 4, 10 years ago, no ? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 05:12:47PM GMT, Pierre Joye [pierre@gmail.com] said the following: Let me use another example to make you understand the situation. I bought a car, which is great, I can repair it myself, can drive Car analogies are seldomly an accurate portrayal to the situation. This case is no different. Please note that I knew for years that I won't find gaz anymore at some point. Shorter version: Topics have been discussed to death, move on, nothing to see. Whenever I bring up an issue like this with the PHP devs, I feel like you guys never experience having to support PHP. Among other things, I am the main sysadmin for my web hosting company and have been supporting PHP since version 3 there. When 4.0 came out, I had to help people change their code accordingly to fix any changes and so on with subsequent versions. But I know that a lot of the people who write code in PHP aren't on this mailing list and don't even look at the PHP manual. A lot of causual developers simply copy code from other places. You might say that its their fault for not keeping up with what they are using and properly learning how to use it. I'd probably agree with you. But at the same time, PHP's ease of use has caused this. Its easy for anyone to sit down with no programming experience and figure out how to process a form, often times by downloading someone else's code and modifying it a bit. Then they learn more off of that and before you know it they are writing stock market simulations. I know a few people like this. I'm guilty of this a bit too (although I've read through most of the PHP documentation and a few books too). I wonder how many of the major apps that people use regularly use ereg and their developer don't know about this change. So for the project developers to just say screw you, we're dropping ereg in 6 and you can't do anything about it without giving a chance for that information to make its way downstream is pretty cold and will lead to a lot of angry people that maybe you don't have to deal with, but the rest of us that run servers and maintain code have to deal with. Its easy for you guys on the list to say that you've known about this or that, because you spend most of your time on PHP and are somewhat in your own world. I spend a fair amount of time on PHP and I still didn't know about this change until recently. -- Mark S. Krenz IT Director Suso Technology Services, Inc. http://suso.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 05:12:43PM GMT, Christian Schneider [cschn...@cschneid.com] said the following: Mark Krenz wrote: But I'm willing to bet that the majority of people are using ereg, not PCRE. I've known about PCRE in PHP for a while now, but I continue to use ereg because I thought it had better support in PHP and that it was the more official function. Guess I was wrong. I'm sure I'm not the I guess that's exactly the reason why it is deprecated now: To indicate that preg_* are the way to go. Uh, really? That's a rather cryptic way of communicating with people. Since ereg was there before preg, a lot of people think that ereg is the more official function. There are plenty of functions that were added into PHP to support lots of different things, I never expected all of them to be well maintained and wondered if I would use some function if eventually it would get removed due to lack of support. preg was kinda like that for me. As far as I understand ereg will be moved to a PECL-extension to keep it around for people who can't switch. Then why doesn't it say this anywhere? So long as the PECL ereg is exactly the same, then I guess I don't have a problem. However I still think this is a change that should have been warned about further in advance, people might not have PEAR turned on. Some brain dead webhosts out there just upgrade across major versions of PHP without warning their customers and leave a lot of people's code in broken states. If some major webhost that a lot of sites used did this, you could suddenly find a lot of websites on the Internet not working one day. And I think the blame would partially fall on the PHP devs for not providing enough warning. If ereg isn't ready yet then 6.0 should be delayed until it is ready. It probably never will be... That's bullshit. Its not like Duke Nukem or something. I've never seen a major version of PHP take more than a couple years to release and PHP 6 seems to be well on its way. I expected it would be released sometime in 2010. Don't get too worked up on this because (as far as I understand the messages on internals) PHP 6 will not be a drop-in replacement for PHP 5.3 anyway. Hosters will have to configure it (like installing the PECL-extension), developers will have to adapt some code. Major versions of PHP seldom are a drop in replacement. ie, you can't just simply run yum upgrade php and hope for the best, you need to do the extra code migration work. However, removing ereg would probably be the most siginficant changes to PHP ever from a code migration point of view. -- Mark S. Krenz IT Director Suso Technology Services, Inc. http://suso.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: [snip] On 12.10.2009, at 18:57, Mark Krenz wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 04:27:02PM GMT, Pierre Joye [pierre@gmail.com] said the following: [snip] But I'm willing to bet that the majority of people are using ereg, not PCRE. I've known about PCRE in PHP for a while now, but I continue to use ereg because I thought it had better support in PHP and that it was the more official function. Guess I was wrong. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought this. Maybe try to substantiate that argument with a google code search or something. Personally I have seen quite the opposite, then again I have been actively encouraging people to use preg since about 5 or more years now. Code Search of: eregi?(_replace)?\( lang:php shows ~123,000 results Code Search of: preg_(filter|grep|last_error|match_all|match|quote|replace_callback|replace|split)\( lang:php shows ~374,000 results Looks like preg_* functions are used more often than ereg* functions to me... Cheers!, -- Carl -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Hello, On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Mark Krenz m...@suso.org wrote: Whenever I bring up an issue like this with the PHP devs, I feel like you guys never experience having to support PHP. Among other things, I am the main sysadmin for my web hosting company and have been supporting PHP since version 3 there. When 4.0 came out, I had to help people change their code accordingly to fix any changes and so on with subsequent versions. .. snip ... So for the project developers to just say screw you, we're dropping ereg in 6 and you can't do anything about it without giving a chance for that information to make its way downstream is pretty cold and will lead to a lot of angry people that maybe you don't have to deal with, but the rest of us that run servers and maintain code have to deal with. Just because you did not find the information does not mean it was unavailable. Assuming developers are saying screw you is just ignorant. No one says you have to upgrade to PHP6 the moment it is available. you could run PHP5 another 10 years if you choose. If you choose to go through whatever measures you find necessary then no one is at fault except for you. Many web hosting companies waited until after PHP4 was entirely deprecated to upgrade to PHP5, and some, likely still run PHP4 on some servers for customers to stubborn to upgrade. Your assumption of responsibility I find incorrect, your general approach to this discussion I find distasteful. If it bothers you this much put a patch out, that can be discussed and perhaps applied depending on the consensus. -Chris -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 05:34:08PM GMT, Olivier B. [php-dev.l...@daevel.fr] said the following: And as far as I know, using ereg_* function is discouraged in the documentation since PHP 4, 10 years ago, no ? Discouraged, no. From looking at archive.org, it looks like there has been this note in the ereg docs since 2002: Note: preg_match(), which uses a Perl-compatible regular expression syntax, is often a faster alternative to ereg(). But that is just a note. Its not saying that preg is the best way to go because ereg will be removed. And there is no version of that page on archive.org that contains the deprecation warning. So its newer than June of 2008. I suspect its been in there since mid 2009, which is hardly enough time. You really need to allow time for the change to make its way through all the support channels. PHP is not a small project anymore, but you guys are treating it like one. Books need to be revised to tell people to use preg_match, websites with tutorials need to be updated and so on. You can't just make a change like this overnight and hope that the PECL function will take over. This is what you call alienating your users. -- Mark S. Krenz IT Director Suso Technology Services, Inc. http://suso.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
2009.10.12 19:22 Mark Krenz rašė: Just to clarify. You mean that with the changes you've made for Unicode support in PHP 6, that current POSIX based ereg expressions will not work the same? Expressions didn't work 1,5 year ago. http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=44923 Maybe current PHP6-dev handles test code better, but bug report is still open. -- Tomas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
2009.10.12 20:55 Carl P. Corliss rašė: Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: [snip] On 12.10.2009, at 18:57, Mark Krenz wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 04:27:02PM GMT, Pierre Joye [pierre@gmail.com] said the following: [snip] But I'm willing to bet that the majority of people are using ereg, not PCRE. I've known about PCRE in PHP for a while now, but I continue to use ereg because I thought it had better support in PHP and that it was the more official function. Guess I was wrong. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought this. Maybe try to substantiate that argument with a google code search or something. Personally I have seen quite the opposite, then again I have been actively encouraging people to use preg since about 5 or more years now. Code Search of: eregi?(_replace)?\( lang:php shows ~123,000 results Code Search of: preg_(filter|grep|last_error|match_all|match|quote|replace_callback|replace|split)\( lang:php shows ~374,000 results Looks like preg_* functions are used more often than ereg* functions to me... preg_quote() and preg_last_error() are support functions. They are used together with other pcre functions. You double some search results. If you have to support something, it is not about statistics. Even 1% is important. Before you use statistics against something, remember that statistics can be used against you too. Everyone of us is one in seven billion. Any person is just 0,00014% in Earth statistics. -- Tomas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On 12.10.2009, at 19:47, Mark Krenz wrote: If ereg isn't ready yet then 6.0 should be delayed until it is ready. It probably never will be... That's bullshit. Its not like Duke Nukem or something. I've never seen a major version of PHP take more than a couple years to release and PHP 6 seems to be well on its way. I expected it would be released sometime in 2010. Uhm, please keep your language under control. Anyways PHP6 has been delayed quite a few times, which is why PHP 5.3 was released to get a lot of the PHP6 non unicode features into the hands of users earlier. Anyways if at all .. PHP6 will come out late 2010, but I think the first stable release will not come before 2011, meaning that there will be around 2 years between it being marked deprecated in a stable release and it disappearing in the latest stable release. Chances are high that the PHP5 tree will still be actively maintained for a few years there after and that the big libraries will not drop PHP5 support until a few years as well, so for most users they will have about 3-5 years to adapt. The rest are people who want to be on the bleeding edge and those users usually write their own code to be bleeding edge too. So relax and again if you feel that your paying customers will suffer too much, pay someone to write the code. Furthermore, if you care about PHP, you might want to register for a wiki account and write up that summary about this discussion, so that we can spare us starting this discussion at zero again in the future. Thanks and have a nice day. regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith m...@pooteeweet.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 05:08:33PM GMT, Lukas Kahwe Smith [...@pooteeweet.org] said the following: Wow, you sure do assume a lot of things about PHP and its development community. I have never seen your name on this list before and (now I am assuming) do not know the state of development of PHP6 (as in that its more or less on halt until someone gets things going again). I've never seen your name before, but I've been using PHP for a while. In other words, there are lots of people involved and affected by this, far more than any of you seem to realize as indicated by your comments. Maybe try to substantiate that argument with a google code search or something. Personally I have seen quite the opposite, then again I have been actively encouraging people to use preg since about 5 or more years now. Been using PHP since 1997 (version 2). Been a sysadmin at 3 places that all have some PHP use, have been a paid developer on a major PHP based project that I didn't even write, but contained over 130,000 lines of PHP code. Written by someone with more experience than me. I've looked at and even modified PHP code for countless open source projects. I've read books and lots of documentation on PHP. Of all that, I have seen very little use of the preg functions. Some people use it sure, but it is by no means the standard. And obviously from what other people are doing, I'm not alone. Its you guys that are in the minority here. Well the whole internet hasnt setup a donation box to pay for developers to work on stuff like this full time. Heh, Its not the job of the internet to take donations, that's the job of the people running the PHP project, but I don't see any mention of donate on the PHP website. It always seemed from the outside like Zend somewhat supported the project. -- Mark S. Krenz IT Director Suso Technology Services, Inc. http://suso.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On 12.10.2009, at 20:34, Tomas Kuliavas wrote: 2009.10.12 20:55 Carl P. Corliss rašė: Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: [snip] On 12.10.2009, at 18:57, Mark Krenz wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 04:27:02PM GMT, Pierre Joye [pierre@gmail.com] said the following: [snip] But I'm willing to bet that the majority of people are using ereg, not PCRE. I've known about PCRE in PHP for a while now, but I continue to use ereg because I thought it had better support in PHP and that it was the more official function. Guess I was wrong. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought this. Maybe try to substantiate that argument with a google code search or something. Personally I have seen quite the opposite, then again I have been actively encouraging people to use preg since about 5 or more years now. Code Search of: eregi?(_replace)?\( lang:php shows ~123,000 results Code Search of: preg_(filter|grep|last_error|match_all|match|quote| replace_callback|replace|split)\( lang:php shows ~374,000 results Looks like preg_* functions are used more often than ereg* functions to me... preg_quote() and preg_last_error() are support functions. They are used together with other pcre functions. You double some search results. If you have to support something, it is not about statistics. Even 1% is important. Before you use statistics against something, remember that statistics can be used against you too. Everyone of us is one in seven billion. Any person is just 0,00014% in Earth statistics. Puh, I think this was a valid attempt at putting things closer to numbers rather then assumptions. Mark's claim was that ereg is being used more than preg and I think these stats do put some doubt on that claim, even though it should also be noted that there are several ereg using functions that are not prefixed with ereg. regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith m...@pooteeweet.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 19:08, Lukas Kahwe Smith m...@pooteeweet.org wrote: Well again an assumption .. no we do not have enough developers to do all the cool things we can think up and still fix bugs, document stuff etc. Feel Shameless plug; http://joind.in/talk/view/971 ! Now, go vote for it so I can do some recruitment at Zendcon! -Hannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
[Please stop feeding the troll.] -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Tomas Kuliavas wrote: [snip] Looks like preg_* functions are used more often than ereg* functions to me... preg_quote() and preg_last_error() are support functions. They are used together with other pcre functions. You double some search results. Actually, searching for those by themselves shows only about 24K worth of results - a far cry from doubling anything. Even adding /spliti?/ for ereg results only increases it to around ~170K results. If you have to support something, it is not about statistics. Even 1% is important. Before you use statistics against something, remember that statistics can be used against you too. Everyone of us is one in seven billion. Any person is just 0,00014% in Earth statistics. Sure, it's not empirical data, however it's certainly useful as a means for gauging (albeit roughly) the use of ereg* functions. Regardless, we could really argue statistics all day if we wanted but, that would be beside the point - which is that ereg* functions are, like it or not, deprecated. Not that I mind given the fact that the preg* functions are typically faster anyway. -- Carl -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 05:55:25PM GMT, Carl P. Corliss [rabb...@gmail.com] said the following: Code Search of: eregi?(_replace)?\( lang:php shows ~123,000 results Code Search of: preg_(filter|grep|last_error|match_all|match|quote|replace_callback|replace|split)\( lang:php shows ~374,000 results Looks like preg_* functions are used more often than ereg* functions to me... I think everyone should read this as it will prove my point. Especially book #9 I have a O'Reilly Safari Books Online account and can search the content of many of the latest books, which I consider something more official than just doing a causual Google search, which can be misleading. The number 1 selling book on Amazon in the PHP category is PHP and MySQL Web Development (4th Edition) from 2008 by Luke Welling and Laura Thomson. There is no mention of preg_match and the book instead shows how to use ereg based functions. In fact, they do mention PCRE, but downplay it by saying that POSIX regexs are easier to use. I think any intelligent person would see this as a alarm that the PHP world isn't ready for ereg to be dropped or changed. You need far more time for the information to make its way through the PHP community. Going further through the list of Amazon's top selling PHP books we have: 2. The Essential Guide to Dreamweaver CS4 with CSS, Ajax, and PHP (Essentials) Ignore this as it isn't really covering PHP properly. 3. Regular Expression Pocket Reference: Regular Expressions: from 2008 This states that it covered PCRE expressions for PHP. So at least that's right. 4. Learning PHP, MySQL, and JavaScript: A Step-by-Step Guide to Creating Dynamic Websites from 2009 Uses examples written with preg_match 5. Web Database Applications with PHP and MySQL, 2nd Edition from 2004. Mentions PCRE but says that they will use POSIX expressions instead. 6. Head First PHP MySQL from 2008/2009 Talks about preg_match, mentions that ereg is removed in PHP 6. 7. PHP Cookbook from 2006 Has mixed examples, some using ereg and some using preg_match 8. Practical WebPractical Web 2.0 Applications with PHP Not on Safari 9. Programming PHP by Kevin Tatroe, Rasmus Lerdorf and Peter MacIntyre in 2006. Which may be considered the definitive guide to PHP since Rasmus is a co-author. Uses examples with both ereg and preg_match, BUT ereg is used first in the book and compromises the majority of the section called Regular Expressions. So here is an example of emphasis being placed on ereg being the more official functions to use. 10. Wicked Cool PHP: Real-World Scripts That Solve Difficult Problems Not on Safari So that's about 4 out of 7 the top selling books on PHP still strongly use ereg. I didn't find any mention in the books I read online about ereg going away. Some of them supported PCRE more than others. But obviously there is still a lot of use of the POSIX functions. These are best selling books on PHP. So there ARE A LOT of programmers out there that think that they are doing the right thing using ereg. Obviously books can't be the authoritative source for functions, but a lot of times they are used that way, especially when one of them was written by the author of the language. Duh! So there is my proof. Does anyone still want to dispute me that ereg is still heavily used and you'll make a lot of users angry if you don't give them the proper amount of time to make this transition? -- Mark S. Krenz IT Director Suso Technology Services, Inc. http://suso.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Mark Krenz wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 05:55:25PM GMT, Carl P. Corliss [rabb...@gmail.com] said the following: Code Search of: eregi?(_replace)?\( lang:php shows ~123,000 results Code Search of: preg_(filter|grep|last_error|match_all|match|quote|replace_callback|replace|split)\( lang:php shows ~374,000 results Looks like preg_* functions are used more often than ereg* functions to me... I think everyone should read this as it will prove my point. Especially book #9 I have a O'Reilly Safari Books Online account and can search the content of many of the latest books, which I consider something more official than just doing a causual Google search, which can be misleading. The number 1 selling book on Amazon in the PHP category is PHP and MySQL Web Development (4th Edition) from 2008 by Luke Welling and Laura Thomson. There is no mention of preg_match and the book instead shows how to use ereg based functions. In fact, they do mention PCRE, but downplay it by saying that POSIX regexs are easier to use. I think any intelligent person would see this as a alarm that the PHP world isn't ready for ereg to be dropped or changed. You need far more time for the information to make its way through the PHP community. You are obviously right of course... the PHP world is NOT ready for the POSIX regex library to be dropped. That's why it's deprecated in PHP 5.3 and not removed. In a year or 3, when PHP 6 is released, one would hope that by then the PHP world WILL be ready. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 06:34:02PM GMT, Tomas Kuliavas [to...@users.sourceforge.net] said the following: preg_quote() and preg_last_error() are support functions. They are used together with other pcre functions. You double some search results. If you have to support something, it is not about statistics. Even 1% is important. Before you use statistics against something, remember that statistics can be used against you too. Everyone of us is one in seven billion. Any person is just 0,00014% in Earth statistics. Thank you Tomas, of all the posts replying to me so far, this one supports my point the most, even if its not meant too. There are only so many people on the PHP-DEV list and obviously you guys know what you are doing with PHP, but that leaves out pretty much all the people that use it. I'm trying to represent those people and voice our opinion. -- Mark S. Krenz IT Director Suso Technology Services, Inc. http://suso.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Mark Krenz m...@suso.org wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 05:55:25PM GMT, Carl P. Corliss [rabb...@gmail.com] said the following: Code Search of: eregi?(_replace)?\( lang:php shows ~123,000 results Code Search of: preg_(filter|grep|last_error|match_all|match|quote|replace_callback|replace|split)\( lang:php shows ~374,000 results Looks like preg_* functions are used more often than ereg* functions to me... I think everyone should read this as it will prove my point. Especially book #9 I have a O'Reilly Safari Books Online account and can search the content of many of the latest books, which I consider something more official than just doing a causual Google search, which can be misleading. The number 1 selling book on Amazon in the PHP category is PHP and MySQL Web Development (4th Edition) from 2008 by Luke Welling and Laura Thomson. There is no mention of preg_match and the book instead shows how to use ereg based functions. In fact, they do mention PCRE, but downplay it by saying that POSIX regexs are easier to use. I think any intelligent person would see this as a alarm that the PHP world isn't ready for ereg to be dropped or changed. You need far more time for the information to make its way through the PHP community. Going further through the list of Amazon's top selling PHP books we have: 2. The Essential Guide to Dreamweaver CS4 with CSS, Ajax, and PHP (Essentials) Ignore this as it isn't really covering PHP properly. 3. Regular Expression Pocket Reference: Regular Expressions: from 2008 This states that it covered PCRE expressions for PHP. So at least that's right. 4. Learning PHP, MySQL, and JavaScript: A Step-by-Step Guide to Creating Dynamic Websites from 2009 Uses examples written with preg_match 5. Web Database Applications with PHP and MySQL, 2nd Edition from 2004. Mentions PCRE but says that they will use POSIX expressions instead. 6. Head First PHP MySQL from 2008/2009 Talks about preg_match, mentions that ereg is removed in PHP 6. 7. PHP Cookbook from 2006 Has mixed examples, some using ereg and some using preg_match 8. Practical WebPractical Web 2.0 Applications with PHP Not on Safari 9. Programming PHP by Kevin Tatroe, Rasmus Lerdorf and Peter MacIntyre in 2006. Which may be considered the definitive guide to PHP since Rasmus is a co-author. Uses examples with both ereg and preg_match, BUT ereg is used first in the book and compromises the majority of the section called Regular Expressions. So here is an example of emphasis being placed on ereg being the more official functions to use. 10. Wicked Cool PHP: Real-World Scripts That Solve Difficult Problems Not on Safari So that's about 4 out of 7 the top selling books on PHP still strongly use ereg. I didn't find any mention in the books I read online about ereg going away. Some of them supported PCRE more than others. But obviously there is still a lot of use of the POSIX functions. These are best selling books on PHP. So there ARE A LOT of programmers out there that think that they are doing the right thing using ereg. Obviously books can't be the authoritative source for functions, but a lot of times they are used that way, especially when one of them was written by the author of the language. Duh! So there is my proof. Does anyone still want to dispute me that ereg is still heavily used and you'll make a lot of users angry if you don't give them the proper amount of time to make this transition? -- Mark S. Krenz IT Director Suso Technology Services, Inc. http://suso.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php If you are feeling this strongly about ereg, I would suggest you do one of the following: 1. Create a patch that contains a re-write and submit it for discussion to the internals mailing list. 2. If you are unable to do # 1. Hire or get a volunteer who can and is willing to create the patch for you. This will save us a lot of time and energy that is being dissipated/wasted in this discussion. You can also document the issue in the wiki to warn userspace PHP developers about the current situation. Again, please note that PHP is designed, developed and maintained by VOLUNTEERS. Please treat these volunteers with respect. -- Good Enough is not good enough. To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift. Quality First. Measure Twice. Cut Once.
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Mark Krenz m...@suso.org wrote: So there is my proof. Does anyone still want to dispute me that ereg is still heavily used and you'll make a lot of users angry if you don't give them the proper amount of time to make this transition? Hello Mark Krenz, please take the following steps: 1) Stop posting pointless junk to the lists as you are alienating all the developers that could possibly help you in the future 2) Create a proper technical proposal on how to solve the Unicode issues in ext/ereg. 3) Get someone to implement your proposal. Nothing helps your cause like a proper patch. Regards, Mikko -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Hello everyone, Let's create a guide for people wanting to convert code from ereg to preg. Please post a few items that belong like: 1. Delimiters are needed with PCRE 2. /i versus eregi 3. Something needed to be said about named classes? What else? Regards, Philip -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Write yourself a bit of code that replaces ereg which could be installed in an
auto_prepend location server-wide. Here's an example you could start with,
although I should point out that I spent all of about 30 seconds thinking about
it, so you might want to give it more thought than that - I'm sure there are
some
funny edge cases in the way people have relied on ereg behaviour, but you'd be
more likely to know that than I since I haven't used ereg() since the day PCRE
support was added to PHP.
if (! function_exists('ereg')) {
function ereg($pattern, $string, $regs = array()) {
$matches = array();
$delimiters =
array(chr(1),chr(1),chr(1),chr(1),chr(1),chr(1),'/', '@', '#', '%', '_');
foreach($delimiters as $c) { if (strpos($string, $c) !== FALSE)
continue; $d = $c; }
if (preg_match_all($d.$pattern.$d, $string, $matches)) return
strlen($string);
return false;
}
}
Much the same could be done for split(), ereg_replace(), and so on.
--
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On 12.10.2009, at 21:48, Joey Smith wrote:
Write yourself a bit of code that replaces ereg which could be
installed in an
auto_prepend location server-wide. Here's an example you could start
with,
although I should point out that I spent all of about 30 seconds
thinking about
it, so you might want to give it more thought than that - I'm sure
there are some
funny edge cases in the way people have relied on ereg behaviour,
but you'd be
more likely to know that than I since I haven't used ereg() since
the day PCRE
support was added to PHP.
if (! function_exists('ereg')) {
function ereg($pattern, $string, $regs = array()) {
$matches = array();
$delimiters = array(chr(1),chr(1),chr(1),chr(1),chr(1),chr(1),'/',
'@', '#', '%', '_');
foreach($delimiters as $c) { if (strpos($string, $c) !== FALSE)
continue; $d = $c; }
if (preg_match_all($d.$pattern.$d, $string, $matches)) return
strlen($string);
return false;
}
}
Much the same could be done for split(), ereg_replace(), and so on.
Feel free to collaborate with the authors of PHP_Compat [1].
regards,
Lukas Kahwe Smith
m...@pooteeweet.org
[1] http://pear.php.net/package/PHP_Compat
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Ooops: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 01:48:28PM -0600, Joey Smith wrote: $delimiters = array(chr(1),chr(1),chr(1),chr(1),chr(1),chr(1),'/', '@', '#', '%', '_'); should have been $delimiters = array(chr(1),chr(2),chr(3),chr(4),chr(5),chr(6),'/', '@', '#', '%', '_'); I used these because given the feature-set of ereg, it seems unlikely that people were passing binary strings into ereg() today, but again - the people who *use* ereg should give it some thought. I'm confident there's a simple path forward for you just by providing the function in userland if you do so. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Feel free to collaborate with the authors of PHP_Compat [1]. regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith m...@pooteeweet.org [1] http://pear.php.net/package/PHP_Compat An excellent pointer, Lukas, thank you. I had forgotten PHP_Compat existed. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 07:22:10PM GMT, Robert Cummings [rob...@interjinn.com] said the following: You are obviously right of course... the PHP world is NOT ready for the POSIX regex library to be dropped. That's why it's deprecated in PHP 5.3 and not removed. In a year or 3, when PHP 6 is released, one would hope that by then the PHP world WILL be ready. One would hope, but I've seen otherwise over the past 10 or 11 years of administrating PHP. Often times the latest supported versions of operating systems do not contain a version of PHP that is recent or supported even. And typically people will run a server for around 3-5 years so they end up having a version of PHP that is way behind. PHP Developers may wonder about this but it is completely acceptable and expected from a sysadmin point of view. I know that I never feel like I'm on a supported version of PHP, even though I'll use a recent OS version. So what happens is if its timed right, many people will never be running PHP 5.3 and will end up straight on PHP 6. I used the term overnight before and I think that confused people. What I mean is overnight in terms of version numbers. For instance, overnight would be like one patch level or even minor version to the next. When a function is deprecated, I expect to see the warning for quite a while before its actually removed. So if it just happens overnight thats not acceptable, no matter how much time has passed. Its more about version numbers than time. -- Mark S. Krenz IT Director Suso Technology Services, Inc. http://suso.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Mark Krenz m...@suso.org wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 07:22:10PM GMT, Robert Cummings [rob...@interjinn.com] said the following: You are obviously right of course... the PHP world is NOT ready for the POSIX regex library to be dropped. That's why it's deprecated in PHP 5.3 and not removed. In a year or 3, when PHP 6 is released, one would hope that by then the PHP world WILL be ready. One would hope, but I've seen otherwise over the past 10 or 11 years of administrating PHP. You are just the one in seven billion. Often times the latest supported versions of operating systems do not contain a version of PHP that is recent or supported even. And typically people will run a server for around 3-5 years so they end up having a version of PHP that is way behind. PHP Developers may wonder about this but it is completely acceptable and expected from a sysadmin point of view. I know that I never feel like I'm on a supported version of PHP, even though I'll use a recent OS version. Major versions can and will break backward compatibility. If your code does not ready for php6, then you have 3-10 years to port it to the php6. If you dont want to, then its fine, you dont have to. So what happens is if its timed right, many people will never be running PHP 5.3 and will end up straight on PHP 6. Why would somebody skip php 5.3 when porting the applications from 5.2 is easy, then switch to php6 to its release day? I used the term overnight before and I think that confused people. What I mean is overnight in terms of version numbers. For instance, overnight would be like one patch level or even minor version to the next. When a function is deprecated, I expect to see the warning for quite a while before its actually removed. So if it just happens overnight thats not acceptable, no matter how much time has passed. Its more about version numbers than time. If -at least- 3 years of warning is overnight for you, than I think I'm lucky to catch you awake. -- Mark S. Krenz IT Director Suso Technology Services, Inc. http://suso.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php I don't like the way that you say you are representing the whole internet, it would be better if we can go for the one person one vote rule. Sorry for my english, I'm not a native speaker, and it's getting late. Tyrael -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 11:53 PM, Ferenc Kovacs i...@tyrael.hu wrote:
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Mark Krenz m...@suso.org wrote:
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 07:22:10PM GMT, Robert Cummings
[rob...@interjinn.com] said the following:
You are obviously right of course... the PHP world is NOT ready for the
POSIX regex library to be dropped. That's why it's deprecated in PHP
5.3 and not removed. In a year or 3, when PHP 6 is released, one would
hope that by then the PHP world WILL be ready.
One would hope, but I've seen otherwise over the past 10 or 11 years
of administrating PHP.
You are just the one in seven billion.
Often times the latest supported versions of operating systems do not
contain a version of PHP that is recent or supported even. And
typically people will run a server for around 3-5 years so they end up
having a version of PHP that is way behind. PHP Developers may wonder
about this but it is completely acceptable and expected from a sysadmin
point of view. I know that I never feel like I'm on a supported
version of PHP, even though I'll use a recent OS version.
Major versions can and will break backward compatibility.
If your code does not ready for php6, then you have 3-10 years to port
it to the php6.
If you dont want to, then its fine, you dont have to.
So what happens is if its timed right, many people will never be
running PHP 5.3 and will end up straight on PHP 6.
Why would somebody skip php 5.3 when porting the applications from 5.2
is easy, then switch to php6 to its release day?
I used the term overnight before and I think that confused people.
What I mean is overnight in terms of version numbers. For instance,
overnight would be like one patch level or even minor version to the
next.
When a function is deprecated, I expect to see the warning for quite a
while before its actually removed. So if it just happens overnight
thats not acceptable, no matter how much time has passed. Its more
about version numbers than time.
If -at least- 3 years of warning is overnight for you, than I think
I'm lucky to catch you awake.
--
Mark S. Krenz
IT Director
Suso Technology Services, Inc.
http://suso.org/
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I don't like the way that you say you are representing the whole
internet, it would be better if we can go for the one person one vote
rule.
Sorry for my english, I'm not a native speaker, and it's getting late.
Tyrael
btw. I hate php 5.3 for the following change:
# The use of {} to access string offsets is deprecated. Use [] instead.
I always used the {} because the [] was deprecated for a long time,
and I corrected everybody, to use the {}, and in one release, the []
gets undeprecated, and the {} to deprecated.
Shame on you people, but I think I have to live with it. :)
Tyrael
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Mark,
You contradict yourself. You say that putting a warning in 5.3 isn't soon
enough, since most people are a few versions behind. Yet you think it is an
absolute outrage that something is being dropped in 6, which is a couple of
years away anyway. The people that won't be on 5.3 in time to be notified of
the change won't be upgrading to 6 for a year or two after the release
anyway. If people are upgrading as new versions are marked stable, they've
already seen the warnings. If they aren't, then there will be a ton of time
for them to port their code to use PCRE before they get anywhere near
installing 6. Besides, any time you upgrade to a major revision, you should
basically expect your code to break. Since it's been pointed out that ereg
will be moved to a PECL extension, hosting providers who have users that
depend on ereg will be able to just install the extension. CRISIS AVERTED!
And in the meantime, you've insulted the core PHP developers and have made a
big stink, when really, they're just trying to make the best decision for
moving the language along. Good going.
Unicode support is far more important than posix regex support. If you feel
so strongly about keeping ereg, you should do the work required to keep it
instead of pissing and moaning at others for not doing it, while making
accusatory statements at people who donate their time to work on an open
source project.
Cheers,
Mike.
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Ferenc Kovacs i...@tyrael.hu wrote:
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 11:53 PM, Ferenc Kovacs i...@tyrael.hu wrote:
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Mark Krenz m...@suso.org wrote:
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 07:22:10PM GMT, Robert Cummings [
rob...@interjinn.com] said the following:
You are obviously right of course... the PHP world is NOT ready for the
POSIX regex library to be dropped. That's why it's deprecated in PHP
5.3 and not removed. In a year or 3, when PHP 6 is released, one would
hope that by then the PHP world WILL be ready.
One would hope, but I've seen otherwise over the past 10 or 11 years
of administrating PHP.
You are just the one in seven billion.
Often times the latest supported versions of operating systems do not
contain a version of PHP that is recent or supported even. And
typically people will run a server for around 3-5 years so they end up
having a version of PHP that is way behind. PHP Developers may wonder
about this but it is completely acceptable and expected from a sysadmin
point of view. I know that I never feel like I'm on a supported
version of PHP, even though I'll use a recent OS version.
Major versions can and will break backward compatibility.
If your code does not ready for php6, then you have 3-10 years to port
it to the php6.
If you dont want to, then its fine, you dont have to.
So what happens is if its timed right, many people will never be
running PHP 5.3 and will end up straight on PHP 6.
Why would somebody skip php 5.3 when porting the applications from 5.2
is easy, then switch to php6 to its release day?
I used the term overnight before and I think that confused people.
What I mean is overnight in terms of version numbers. For instance,
overnight would be like one patch level or even minor version to the
next.
When a function is deprecated, I expect to see the warning for quite a
while before its actually removed. So if it just happens overnight
thats not acceptable, no matter how much time has passed. Its more
about version numbers than time.
If -at least- 3 years of warning is overnight for you, than I think
I'm lucky to catch you awake.
--
Mark S. Krenz
IT Director
Suso Technology Services, Inc.
http://suso.org/
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
I don't like the way that you say you are representing the whole
internet, it would be better if we can go for the one person one vote
rule.
Sorry for my english, I'm not a native speaker, and it's getting late.
Tyrael
btw. I hate php 5.3 for the following change:
# The use of {} to access string offsets is deprecated. Use [] instead.
I always used the {} because the [] was deprecated for a long time,
and I corrected everybody, to use the {}, and in one release, the []
gets undeprecated, and the {} to deprecated.
Shame on you people, but I think I have to live with it. :)
Tyrael
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Mark Krenz wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 05:55:25PM GMT, Carl P. Corliss [rabb...@gmail.com] said the following: Code Search of: eregi?(_replace)?\( lang:php shows ~123,000 results Code Search of: preg_(filter|grep|last_error|match_all|match|quote|replace_callback|replace|split)\( lang:php shows ~374,000 results Looks like preg_* functions are used more often than ereg* functions to me... I think everyone should read this as it will prove my point. Especially book #9 I have a O'Reilly Safari Books Online account and can search the content of many of the latest books, which I consider something more official than just doing a causual Google search, which can be misleading. The number 1 selling book on Amazon in the PHP category is PHP and MySQL Web Development (4th Edition) from 2008 by Luke Welling and Laura Thomson. There is no mention of preg_match and the book instead shows how to use ereg based functions. In fact, they do mention PCRE, but downplay it by saying that POSIX regexs are easier to use. I think any intelligent person would see this as a alarm that the PHP world isn't ready for ereg to be dropped or changed. You need far more time for the information to make its way through the PHP community. Going further through the list of Amazon's top selling PHP books we have: 2. The Essential Guide to Dreamweaver CS4 with CSS, Ajax, and PHP (Essentials) Ignore this as it isn't really covering PHP properly. 3. Regular Expression Pocket Reference: Regular Expressions: from 2008 This states that it covered PCRE expressions for PHP. So at least that's right. 4. Learning PHP, MySQL, and JavaScript: A Step-by-Step Guide to Creating Dynamic Websites from 2009 Uses examples written with preg_match 5. Web Database Applications with PHP and MySQL, 2nd Edition from 2004. Mentions PCRE but says that they will use POSIX expressions instead. 6. Head First PHP MySQL from 2008/2009 Talks about preg_match, mentions that ereg is removed in PHP 6. 7. PHP Cookbook from 2006 Has mixed examples, some using ereg and some using preg_match 8. Practical Web Practical Web 2.0 Applications with PHP Not on Safari 9. Programming PHP by Kevin Tatroe, Rasmus Lerdorf and Peter MacIntyre in 2006. Which may be considered the definitive guide to PHP since Rasmus is a co-author. Uses examples with both ereg and preg_match, BUT ereg is used first in the book and compromises the majority of the section called Regular Expressions. So here is an example of emphasis being placed on ereg being the more official functions to use. 10. Wicked Cool PHP: Real-World Scripts That Solve Difficult Problems Not on Safari So that's about 4 out of 7 the top selling books on PHP still strongly use ereg. I didn't find any mention in the books I read online about ereg going away. Some of them supported PCRE more than others. But obviously there is still a lot of use of the POSIX functions. In PHP Cookbook, the only use of ereg I found was in the section where the books was explaining how to convert from ereg to preg_match. Or an occasional mention that said you could do it with ereg but preg_match was better. But, I might have missed something. Practical Web 2.0 Applications with PHP, published in 2008, uses PCRE functions. Wicked Cool PHP, published in 2008, uses the PCRE functions. The book PHP MySQL Web Development For Dummies, published in 2008, uses only PCRE funcitons. Doesn't even mention ereg. PHP MySQL for Dummies sells pretty well. Its fourth edition will be released next month. It uses only PCRE, does not mention ereg. So, it appears that around 2007 most authors recognized that they needed to begin moving readers to the PCRE functions. Janet -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Why is ereg being deprecated?
Ferenc Kovacs wrote:
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 11:53 PM, Ferenc Kovacs i...@tyrael.hu wrote:
btw. I hate php 5.3 for the following change:
# The use of {} to access string offsets is deprecated. Use [] instead.
I always used the {} because the [] was deprecated for a long time,
and I corrected everybody, to use the {}, and in one release, the []
gets undeprecated, and the {} to deprecated.
Shame on you people, but I think I have to live with it. :)
I hope you don't mind if I laugh at you and with you... I did exactly
the same thing :) I remember about 5 years ago (or whenever it was)
changing all my string offset code to use curly braces and then
preaching the one true way *meh* :D
Cheers,
Rob.
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Application and Templating Framework for PHP
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