Boycott Israel [IslamCity] Re: [IslamCity] Can the Dead Hear?
SalaamIt is best to understand the meaining of in the grave as being beyond this life.There is no reason to believe the rooh is PHYSICALLY in the dunya. On 7/13/06, shinwarishinwari shinwarishinwari wrote: In the name of God... according to my little knowledge...as explained by islamic muftisin grave, soul has to be ordered by its Creator to come back to the body of the deceased...and after Munkir Nakeer questioning the soul has turned back toskies with the permission of Allah (SWA). there is a question in my mind..is it possible for the soul to be in grave without the physical body...i mean the body has to be finished after some time in grave...and if the answer is yes ..then can we call this beliefof Hindus as true too for what they think about presence of roohs or so called 'Aatma in this world. Need help... thanks! R M Shinwari [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:YOU ARE WRONG MY DEAR READ WELL ANY AUTHENTIC THAFSEER THIS AAYATH IS REGARDING TO WHOM? DON'T READ MODERN ENGLISH TRANSLATION . READ ANY ARABIC THAFSEER. IF SO, HOW THE DEAD PERSON CAN ANSWER TO MUNKER AND NAKEER ANGELS FROM QABAR? THERE IS A SAHIHUL HADEES SAYING THAT OUR PROPHET (S)WILL HEAR OUR SALAAM DIRECTLY IN FRIDAY AND OTHER DAYS ANGEL JIBREEL (A) WILL BRING TO OUR PROPHET (S) AND RETURNS BACK OUR SALAAM ALSO. STUDY WELL BEFORE COMMENTING ANYTHING ABOUT ISLAM DON'T FOLLOW ORIENTALISTS WHO IS WRITING MANY TRANSLATIONS TO DESTROY ISLAM [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the Name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful Verse 35.22 is crystal clear that human beings still living in this world cannot make those to hear who are in the graves. And yet, many Muslims today believe that the Prophet (peace be upon him) and many other pious, saintly people, in their graves, do hear those who remember them and ask them to pray to and intercede with Allah for them. This belief is said to be based on two Qur'aanic verses, 4.64 and 2.154.The original Arabic texts of the 3 verses, mentioned above, are given in the attachments. Their English translations are as follows:35.22 Neither are the living and the dead alike. Allah makes anyone, He wishes, to hear. And you are in no position to make those to hear who are in the graves. 4.64 And We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed by Allah's leave. And had they indeed come to you when they had wronged their own selves, then prayed Allah to forgive them and had the Messenger too prayed Allah to forgive them, they certainly would have found Allah Forgiving and Merciful.2.154 And say not of those killed in Allah's Path, Dead persons. Nay! They are living, but you perceive not. The words 'those ... who are in the graves' in verse 35.22 are significant. These words also cover those persons who are buried in the graves, but are living in terms of verse 2.154. This means that human beings, living in this world, cannot make those in the graves - whether dead or living - to hear. Now, let us study verse 4.64. The personal pronoun 'you' therein stands specifically for Prophet Muhammad. So some Muslims seem to think that even now, over 14 centuries after he was put in his grave at Medina after a natural (and not violent) death, if people go to the Prophet's grave and pray Allah for forgiving their sins, the Prophet hears them and he too prays to Allah on their behalf. And this thinking has derived apparent support from Ibn Kathir who in his Tafseer has reportedly quoted a saying as per which a man, named Otba, sleeping near the Prophet's grave saw the Prophet in a dream. The Prophet tells Otba that Allah has forgiven the sins of an Arabi, whom Otba had actually seen (and not in a dream) earlier, addressing the Prophet at his grave. The Arabi had said that he had heard of the Verse ( 4.64), and in compliance thereof, he had come to him (i.e. the Prophet lying in his grave) seeking Allah's forgiveness of his sins and the Prophet's intercession. First, our Prophet did not have a violent death; he was not killed. His death was due to natural causes. Verse 2.154 doesn't apparently therefore apply to him. Second, there is no dispute that at his death, the Prophet's body was put in his grave at Medina. Verse 35.22 therefore applies to him, and no living human being here in this world is in a position to make the Prophet to hear, even if, by any stretch of imagination, the Prophet is considered to be living in terms of Verse 2.154. As against this clear-cut postion seen in Qur'aanic light, we have the Ibn Kathir story, based on a dream, giving quite the contrary position! This is what happens when the clear Qur'aanic verses are sought to be interpreted - and interpreted wrongly - on the basis of sources outside the Qur'aan. We are thus led to believe in things that are opposite to what the Qur'aan says. The Qur'aan says, in Verse 42.48, that the Prophet was not sent as a protector; his responsibility was but to convey the divine
RE: [IslamCity] Can the Dead Hear?
lah, and retreated to the first row so that the Prophet could then lead the prayer. After the prayer, the Prophet said: "0 Abu Bakr, what prevented you from remaining in your place when I ordered you?" Abu Bakr (radhi allahu anhu) said: "It is not fitting for the son of Ibn Abee Quhaafah to lead the prayer in the presence of Allah's Messenger "[Saheeh-al Bukhari(Eng. Trans.) vol. 1, p.368, no: 652 and Saheeh Muslim (Eng. Trans.) vol.1, p.233, no.845] But after the death of Allah's Messenger , the Sahabah (radhi allahu anhum) prayed behind other Imams within the Prophet's mosque in Medina. If Allah's Messenger is alive in his grave, as he was alive before his burial then, there is no need for another Imam in the presence of a living, aware and praying Messenger !! Doubt (2): The Qur'aan refers to the Martyrs as Living Allah says in Soorah al-Baqarah, "And say not of those who have been killed in the Way of Allah, 'they are dead.? Nay, they are living, but you are unaware of it" [Soorah al-Baqarah (2) 154] The Sufis claim that their Shaikhs too die in the path of Allah, and are therefore Martyrs. Based upon this verse, they claim that death does not overcome the Shaikh, and they continue to benefit others in death just as they used to benefit in their lifetime. It is mentioned in Imdaadus Sulook p.27 story no. "Once, a person of Kashf went to the rnazaar (tomb) of Hazrat Haji Sahib (Dhaamin) to recite al-Fatihah there. After reciting al-Fatihah he said, "Brother! Who is this esteemed man? He seems to be a very jolly person. When I began to recite al-Fatihah, he said to me,"Go and read al-Fatihah for a dead man. You have come here to recite al-Fatihah on the living What is this matter?" Thereafter, I was informed by people that the person in the grave was a shaheed (martyr)." [Iindaadus-Sulook, (Urdu) p27, story no.3. This book in now available in English (and named Irshaadul-Mulook) and the reference of the above story is Irshaadul-Mulook (Eng. Trans.) Page. 19, Episode .1.] Reply In this verse of Soorah al-Baqarah, Allah refers to the martyrs, who die whilst defending the religion, as living. The Messenger of Allah explained the life of martyrs after death. Narrated Abdullah (radhi allahu anhu) "It has been narrated on the authority of Masruq, who said: "We asked Abdullah about the Qur'aanic verse: "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord [Soorah aali-Imran (3):169] He said: "We asked the meaning of the verse (from Allah's Messenger ), who said: "The souls of the martyrs live in the bodies of green birds who have their nests in chandeliers hung from the Throne of the AImighty. They eat the fruits of Paradise, wherever they like, and then nestle in these chandeliers. Once, their Lord cast a glance at them and said: "I)o you want anything?" They said: "What more can we desire? We eat the fruit of Paradise wherever we like." Their Lord asked them the same question thrice. When they saw that they would continue to be asked and not left (without answering the question), they said: "0 Lord, we wish that You may return our souls to own bodies, so that we may be slain in Your cause once again. When He (Allah) saw that they had no need, they were left (to their joy in heaven)." [Saheeh Muslim no: 4651. Also see Surian at-Tirrnidhee no: 1631, Sunan Ibm Majah and Bayhaqee (in kitab al-Ba'th wan-N ushur)] In light of this Hadeeth,. we clearly understand that the conditions under which the Martyrs live after death is different from their worldly life. Their life after death is the life of Barzakh, which severs all connections with the worldly life. Therefore, the Sharee'ah has prescribed that... 1. The property of the martyr be divided among his inheritors. 2. The wives of the martyr should mourn their husbands for the period of four months and ten days. 3. After the Iddah period, the wives of the martyr are free to marry again. Hence, the martyrs are alive with respect to the Hereafter but with respect to this world they are dead, and all actions that are carried out for the dead are carried out for the Martyrs (with a few exceptions). Accordingly, this verse of Soorah al-Baqarah is a proof of the great position of martyrdom, but in no way supports the Sufi view that the pious live a worldly life even after death. "They ask you concerning the soul. Say that the soul is from Allah and you have not been given knowledge of it except a little" (soorah al- Isra (17:85) Taken from the book "THE JAMAATH THABLEEGH AND THE DEOBANDIS" Compiled by: Sajid Abdul Kayum Published by : Ahya Multi Media www.ahya.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 2:53 PM To: eGroup For Muslims Around The World
Re: [IslamCity] Can the Dead Hear?
In the name of God... according to my little knowledge...as explained by islamic muftisin grave, soul has to be ordered by its Creator to come back to the body of the deceased...and after Munkir Nakeer questioning the soul has turned back toskies with the permission of Allah (SWA).there is a question in my mind..is it possible for the soul to be in grave without the physical body...i mean the body has to be finished after some time in grave...and if the answer is yes ..then can we call this beliefof Hindus as true too for what they think about presence of roohs or so called 'Aatma" in this world. Need help... thanks!R M Shinwari[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:YOU ARE WRONG MY DEAR READ WELL ANY AUTHENTIC THAFSEER THIS AAYATH IS REGARDING TO WHOM? DON'T READ MODERN ENGLISH TRANSLATION . READ ANY ARABIC THAFSEER. IF SO, HOW THE DEAD PERSON CAN ANSWER TO MUNKER AND NAKEER ANGELS FROM QABAR? THERE IS A SAHIHUL HADEES SAYING THAT OUR PROPHET (S)WILL HEAR OUR SALAAM DIRECTLY IN FRIDAY AND OTHER DAYS ANGEL JIBREEL (A) WILL BRING TO OUR PROPHET (S) AND RETURNS BACK OUR SALAAM ALSO. STUDY WELL BEFORE COMMENTING ANYTHING ABOUT ISLAM DON'T FOLLOW ORIENTALISTS WHO IS WRITING MANY TRANSLATIONS TO DESTROY ISLAM[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the Name of Allah, the Gracious, the MercifulVerse 35.22 is crystal clear that human beings still living in this world cannot make those to hear who are in the graves. And yet, many Muslims today believe that the Prophet (peace be upon him) and many other pious, saintly people, in their graves, do hear those who remember them and ask them to pray to and intercede with Allah for them. This belief is said to be based on two Qur'aanic verses, 4.64 and 2.154.The original Arabic texts of the 3 verses, mentioned above, are given in the attachments. Their English translations are as follows:35.22 Neither are the living and the dead alike. Allah makes anyone, He wishes, to hear. And you are in no position to make those to hear who are in the graves.4.64 And We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed by Allah's leave. And had they indeed come to you when they had wronged their own selves, then prayed Allah to forgive them and had the Messenger too prayed Allah to forgive them, they certainly would have found Allah Forgiving and Merciful.2.154 And say not of those killed in Allah's Path, "Dead persons." Nay! They are living, but you perceive not.The words 'those ... who are in the graves' in verse 35.22 are significant. These words also cover those persons who are buried in the graves, but are living in terms of verse 2.154. This means that human beings, living in this world, cannot make those in the graves - whether dead or living - to hear.Now, let us study verse 4.64. The personal pronoun 'you' therein stands specifically for Prophet Muhammad. So some Muslims seem to think that even now, over 14 centuries after he was put in his grave at Medina after a natural (and not violent) death, if people go to the Prophet's grave and pray Allah for forgiving their sins, the Prophet hears them and he too prays to Allah on their behalf. And this thinking has derived apparent support from Ibn Kathir who in his Tafseer has reportedly quoted a saying as per which a man, named Otba, sleeping near the Prophet's grave saw the Prophet in a dream. The Prophet tells Otba that Allah has forgiven the sins of an Arabi, whom Otba had actually seen (and not in a dream) earlier, addressing the Prophet at his grave. The Arabi had said that he had heard of the Verse (4.64), and in compliance thereof, he had come to him (i.e. the Prophet lying in his grave) seeking Allah's forgiveness of his sins and the Prophet's intercession.First, our Prophet did not have a violent death; he was not killed. His death was due to natural causes. Verse 2.154 doesn't apparently therefore apply to him. Second, there is no dispute that at his death, the Prophet's body was put in his grave at Medina. Verse 35.22 therefore applies to him, and no living human being here in this world is in a position to make the Prophet to hear, even if, by any stretch of imagination, the Prophet is considered to be living in terms of Verse 2.154.As against this clear-cut postion seen in Qur'aanic light, we have the Ibn Kathir story, based on a dream, giving quite the contrary position! This is what happens when the clear Qur'aanic verses are sought to be interpreted - and interpreted wrongly - on the basis of sources outside the Qur'aan. We are thus led to believe in things that are opposite to what the Qur'aan says.The Qur'aan says, in Verse 42.48, that the Prophet was not sent as a protector; his responsibility was but to convey the divine Message. And the Qur'aan says, in Verse 2.154, that there shall be no intercession. But the Ibn Kathir story cited above would have us believe that our Prophet intercedes even while he is in his grave!Verse 35.22, quoted above, tells us that the living
Re: [IslamCity] Can the Dead Hear?
YOU ARE WRONG MY DEAR READ WELL ANY AUTHENTIC THAFSEER THIS AAYATH IS REGARDING TO WHOM? DON'T READ MODERN ENGLISH TRANSLATION . READ ANY ARABIC THAFSEER. IF SO, HOW THE DEAD PERSON CAN ANSWER TO MUNKER AND NAKEER ANGELS FROM QABAR? THERE IS A SAHIHUL HADEES SAYING THAT OUR PROPHET (S)WILL HEAR OUR SALAAM DIRECTLY IN FRIDAY AND OTHER DAYS ANGEL JIBREEL (A) WILL BRING TO OUR PROPHET (S) AND RETURNS BACK OUR SALAAM ALSO. STUDY WELL BEFORE COMMENTING ANYTHING ABOUT ISLAM DON'T FOLLOW ORIENTALISTS WHO IS WRITING MANY TRANSLATIONS TO DESTROY ISLAM[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the Name of Allah, the Gracious, the MercifulVerse 35.22 is crystal clear that human beings still living in this world cannot make those to hear who are in the graves. And yet, many Muslims today believe that the Prophet (peace be upon him) and many other pious, saintly people, in their graves, do hear those who remember them and ask them to pray to and intercede with Allah for them. This belief is said to be based on two Qur'aanic verses, 4.64 and 2.154.The original Arabic texts of the 3 verses, mentioned above, are given in the attachments. Their English translations are as follows:35.22 Neither are the living and the dead alike. Allah makes anyone, He wishes, to hear. And you are in no position to make those to hear who are in the graves.4.64 And We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed by Allah's leave. And had they indeed come to you when they had wronged their own selves, then prayed Allah to forgive them and had the Messenger too prayed Allah to forgive them, they certainly would have found Allah Forgiving and Merciful.2.154 And say not of those killed in Allah's Path, "Dead persons." Nay! They are living, but you perceive not.The words 'those ... who are in the graves' in verse 35.22 are significant. These words also cover those persons who are buried in the graves, but are living in terms of verse 2.154. This means that human beings, living in this world, cannot make those in the graves - whether dead or living - to hear.Now, let us study verse 4.64. The personal pronoun 'you' therein stands specifically for Prophet Muhammad. So some Muslims seem to think that even now, over 14 centuries after he was put in his grave at Medina after a natural (and not violent) death, if people go to the Prophet's grave and pray Allah for forgiving their sins, the Prophet hears them and he too prays to Allah on their behalf. And this thinking has derived apparent support from Ibn Kathir who in his Tafseer has reportedly quoted a saying as per which a man, named Otba, sleeping near the Prophet's grave saw the Prophet in a dream. The Prophet tells Otba that Allah has forgiven the sins of an Arabi, whom Otba had actually seen (and not in a dream) earlier, addressing the Prophet at his grave. The Arabi had said that he had heard of the Verse (4.64), and in compliance thereof, he had come to him (i.e. the Prophet lying in his grave) seeking Allah's forgiveness of his sins and the Prophet's intercession.First, our Prophet did not have a violent death; he was not killed. His death was due to natural causes. Verse 2.154 doesn't apparently therefore apply to him. Second, there is no dispute that at his death, the Prophet's body was put in his grave at Medina. Verse 35.22 therefore applies to him, and no living human being here in this world is in a position to make the Prophet to hear, even if, by any stretch of imagination, the Prophet is considered to be living in terms of Verse 2.154.As against this clear-cut postion seen in Qur'aanic light, we have the Ibn Kathir story, based on a dream, giving quite the contrary position! This is what happens when the clear Qur'aanic verses are sought to be interpreted - and interpreted wrongly - on the basis of sources outside the Qur'aan. We are thus led to believe in things that are opposite to what the Qur'aan says.The Qur'aan says, in Verse 42.48, that the Prophet was not sent as a protector; his responsibility was but to convey the divine Message. And the Qur'aan says, in Verse 2.154, that there shall be no intercession. But the Ibn Kathir story cited above would have us believe that our Prophet intercedes even while he is in his grave!Verse 35.22, quoted above, tells us that the living and the dead are not alike. The wrong-doers were asked to come to the Prophet, while he was living in this world, engaged in his given task of conveying the divine Message. They were not called to him when he was in his grave. They were called to him so that they could also get the divine Message direct from the Messenger of Allah. The Qur'aan was not revealed in its full glory, and Islam was not perfected till the very last days of the Prophet. The Prophet's personal guidance was necessary till the Qur'aan was completed and Islam perfected. Because, the Prophet had palpable communication with Allah Almighty, and any problem arising could be resolved by a direct reference to
