Re: [The Java Posse] Any thoughts on Swift?

[Carl Jokl]

I wonder about Swift in terms of performance of apps. Traditionally Games
companies use C++ for their games engines and on iOS just use the minimum
Objective-C to act as the glue to the operating system. For all Objective-C
apps then yes Swift will be a big improvement but for those where it was
kept to a minimum the difference may not be as dramatic.

I think it is good that Apple are moving away from Objective-C. Objective-C
did feel like a pet project of Steve Jobs and now that he is no longer
leading Apple they have the opportunity to replace it with something more
modern. It shouldn't be hard for swift to be more modern than Objective-C.

I expect as I will be developing mobile apps for my company I will have the
chance to give a first hand verdict of what I think of Swift. To be honest
it is kind of nice to think I may manage to dodge having to do so much
Objective-C as long as swift is backwards compatible with older versions of
iOS. I hope it is.

Carl


On 4 June 2014 16:50, Cédric Beust ♔  wrote:

>
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 1:23 AM, Kevin Wright 
> wrote:
>
>> Though I'm upset that the most popular answer fails to mention the
>> complete lack of features for tackling concurrency!
>
>
> I'm unconvinced there is any point to syntactic support for concurrency.
>
> Support concurrency in the runtime/bytecode and the libraries, absolutely.
> But in the syntax? What does that buy you besides complicating the grammar?
>
> --
> Cédric
>
>
> --
> Cédric
>
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[The Java Posse] Android Certification

[Carl Jokl]

Dear All

I wanted to ask if there are any official or recognised certifications for 
developing Android applications. Sun and now Oracle have had a number of 
certifications both covering core Java and also JavaME (as well as web and 
EJB etc). I am not aware of any equivalent certification for Android 
application development. Are there any courses or programs that anyone 
would recommend as a means of certifying competence in Android development?

Carl

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[The Java Posse] Re: Devoxx UK 2013 in London

[Carl Jokl]

I am glad you are not disputing that Shazam is full of beautiful people 
producing beautiful software. Is there anyone who dislikes Shazam? 
At worsted people might be indifferent. The only people we could come up 
with were hipsters who might be disappointed that the music they listen to 
was recognised by Shazam in spite of them hoping it was too niche for 
anyone else to know what it is.

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Devoxx UK 2013 in London

[Carl Jokl]

I can see your argument against people who's sole purpose in being at a 
booth is to look good. However I hope there is no discrimination against 
anyone who works in a technical and also is well endowed with good looks 
(Shazam has a lot of talented people and many of them are quite 
presentable...true story).

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[The Java Posse] Re: Devoxx UK 2013 in London

[Carl Jokl]

It looks like Shazam is a Devoxx sponsor and so we will have a booth / 
stand. I asked whether hanging around the Shazam booth would make me more 
attractive (given the prevalence of booth babes at conferences. I don't 
know what the male equivalent of a both babe is). My line manager offered 
me no guarantees on that front. Still I can hang around making the Shazam 
logo with my hands until people like me 

On Tuesday, 19 March 2013 14:14:46 UTC, Carl Jokl wrote:
>
> Given that Devoxx UK 2013 is approaching, I wondered who is coming and 
> whether the Java Posse is going to be in attendance.
>
> This is my first Devoxx but then it kind of a new thing for me to work for 
> companies willing to send me to conferences. More than the content I am 
> looking forward to whom I could meet there.
>
> I could end up behaving like Rhino from the Disney movie Bolt...let it 
> begin..Let it begin!..LET IT BEGIN!! I am however a professional and must 
> retain a level of professional quiet dignity.
>
> Carl
>

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Re: [The Java Posse] Devoxx UK 2013 in London

[Carl Jokl]

...must...not...shatter...the...dream...

I guess some people like to go to concerts and such. I don't mind getting 
together with other geeks and coding. To each their own.

Carl

On Tuesday, 19 March 2013 15:06:16 UTC, rakesh mailgroups wrote:
>
> Carl,
>
> I hate to burst your bubble but going to a tech conference isn't like 
> going to see a concert or something!
>
> Some of the presentations are really great and you fell good inside that 
> you are at the cutting edge of your profession.
>
> From the outside though, its a bunch of geeks wondering around, not really 
> talking to each other (except the people you came with).
>
> I might be going this year, I'll let you know if I do.
>
> Rakesh
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Carl Jokl 
> > wrote:
>
>> Given that Devoxx UK 2013 is approaching, I wondered who is coming and 
>> whether the Java Posse is going to be in attendance.
>>
>> This is my first Devoxx but then it kind of a new thing for me to work 
>> for companies willing to send me to conferences. More than the content I am 
>> looking forward to whom I could meet there.
>>
>> I could end up behaving like Rhino from the Disney movie Bolt...let it 
>> begin..Let it begin!..LET IT BEGIN!! I am however a professional and must 
>> retain a level of professional quiet dignity.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> -- 
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>>  
>>
>
>

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[The Java Posse] Devoxx UK 2013 in London

[Carl Jokl]

Given that Devoxx UK 2013 is approaching, I wondered who is coming and 
whether the Java Posse is going to be in attendance.

This is my first Devoxx but then it kind of a new thing for me to work for 
companies willing to send me to conferences. More than the content I am 
looking forward to whom I could meet there.

I could end up behaving like Rhino from the Disney movie Bolt...let it 
begin..Let it begin!..LET IT BEGIN!! I am however a professional and must 
retain a level of professional quiet dignity.

Carl

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[The Java Posse] Re: JavaDoc and Comments

[Carl Jokl]

I just feel writing self documenting code is not mutually exclusive to 
writing documentation and comments. My thinking is making the code itself 
clear means less need to stick lots of comments in it to explain what is 
going on. I didn't see this as meaning no comments were needed at all just 
that less need to be written. As regards classes and methods, those 
comments cover what a class or method is intended to do and not the 
implementation details of how it does it (unless it is really necessary or 
well understood e.g. LinkedList vs ArrayList).

I hope my opinions are not going to cause any tension in the company I work 
for but I still like adding comments to my code. 

On Friday, August 17, 2012 10:18:26 AM UTC+1, Carl Jokl wrote:
>
> I had a discussion very recently within my company regarding the source 
> code produced and that it has almost no comments in it. I was told quite 
> confidently by the developer I spoke to that this was a deliberate company 
> decision and that the code should be clear enough that no comments 
> were necessary. Also it was said that the code and methods were changing so 
> often that it would just be painful overhead to keep JavaDoc comments up to 
> date.
>
> I understand the principle of trying to make code self documenting and 
> clear enough so that it does not need lots of documentation. I am not sure 
> however how I feel about the idea of using this argument not to add much of 
> any comments at all. Am I just not with the times or Agile enough? 
>
> What are your thoughts?
>

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[The Java Posse] JavaDoc and Comments

[Carl Jokl]

I had a discussion very recently within my company regarding the source 
code produced and that it has almost no comments in it. I was told quite 
confidently by the developer I spoke to that this was a deliberate company 
decision and that the code should be clear enough that no comments 
were necessary. Also it was said that the code and methods were changing so 
often that it would just be painful overhead to keep JavaDoc comments up to 
date.

I understand the principle of trying to make code self documenting and 
clear enough so that it does not need lots of documentation. I am not sure 
however how I feel about the idea of using this argument not to add much of 
any comments at all. Am I just not with the times or Agile enough? 

What are your thoughts?

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Re: [The Java Posse] Project Jigsaw probably pushed back to Java 9

[Carl Jokl]

It is frustrating. Enough of these disappointments and setbacks would make
me tempted to want to work with something else sometimes yet the problem
remains that the alternatives still have issues. Features get into .Net in
a timely manner but then developing with that introduces lots of political
problems. Go to C/C++? It is moving more slowly than Java and not very
productive. Objective-C? Quirky and showing its age. I don't know, I get
fed up with the Java leadership promising much and then failing to deliver
or repeatedly under-delivering on what was promised. However moaning about
it is not likely to change anything. Oracle isn't going to listen.

On 18 July 2012 11:39, Moandji Ezana  wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Carl Jokl  wrote:
>
>> Reading the title makes me feel a tad better. I thought for a moment that
>> Project Jigsaw was being abandoned altogether. This would be a shame given
>> that I think that it is about more than just JavaFX and as said would be a
>> step towards cleaning up the platform and being able to drop a lot of
>> deprecated cruft eventually. This would be good for everyone surely,
>> client, server and embedded?
>
>
> That would be nice, but if it's only released in 2015, that means adoption
> will only really begin in 2016-2017 (as it has to be adopted not only by
> applications, but also by libraries, servers and IDEs). In 5 years, the
> landscape might have changed enough to make Jigsaw unnecessary.
>
> It's also kind of depressing that it would take nearly a decade to roll
> out something that's supposed to make the platform easier to evolve.
>
> Moandji
>
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Re: [The Java Posse] Project Jigsaw probably pushed back to Java 9

[Carl Jokl]

Reading the title makes me feel a tad better. I thought for a moment that
Project Jigsaw was being abandoned altogether. This would be a shame given
that I think that it is about more than just JavaFX and as said would be a
step towards cleaning up the platform and being able to drop a lot of
deprecated cruft eventually. This would be good for everyone surely,
client, server and embedded?

On 17 July 2012 22:51, Kevin Wright  wrote:

> Which is part of what Jigsaw, as I understand it, was supposed to address!
>
> Once we've got *versioned* modules, corba can go, and the old date/time
> stuff, and methods using enumeration, and any other of the things that have
> been long deprecated (or that should have been)
>
> This is a sad day, it's the one imminent feature in Java that was of real
> benefit to the platform as a whole. What remains in the Java 8 spec that
> isn't just about playing catch-up with Scala, Groovy, JRuby, Mirah, etc?
>
>
>
> On 17 July 2012 22:44, phil swenson  wrote:
>
>> To me this is another sign that Java needs a reboot.  It seems like
>> all the legacy and compatibility issues have become a really heavy
>> burden to bear.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Jan Goyvaerts 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 10:29 PM, Fabrizio Giudici
>> >  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:05:02 +0200, Martijn Verburg
>> >>  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> A tough decision and yes a little disappointing, especially since it
>> >>> would be very useful to have the JDK itself split up. However, given
>> >>> the extra engineering and community effort to have jigsaw fully
>> >>> supported by tools and containers, I think it was the right call, and
>> >>> at least they let us know over a year out.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Really, I don't know. As Jan said, the impact on the desktop side, for
>> non
>> >> industrial projects, is relevant. JavaFX 2 will stay mostly confined
>> to the
>> >> range of industrial apps. It's true that this final of the story has
>> been
>> >> already written in the past two years, but there could be still room
>> for
>> >> doing something.
>> >>
>> >> Given that, what's now really the meaning of jigsaw? Not useful on the
>> >> server side, and I can say that industrial apps aren't affected by
>> 20-30-40
>> >> MB more or less.
>> >
>> >
>> > That's a way of looking at it.
>> >
>> > I'm more thinking about who will care about Jigsaw's release two years
>> from
>> > now. Personally (so this is *my* opinion) I see only two groups of
>> people:
>> > the embedded- and the desktop developers. For the former I wonder
>> whether
>> > the mainstream hardware won't allow to run a regular jvm by then.
>> >
>> > For the latter I wonder if that many will still ask for it by then. Yes,
>> > JavaFX is able to do many wonderful things. But so is the HTML5/CSS3/JS
>> > steamroller. Wonderful enough to be useful anyway. Not to mention what
>> it'll
>> > be able to do in another two years. Not that I'm pleased or enthusiastic
>> > about HTML5 & co. But I admit having grossly underestimated its
>> momentum,
>> > support and consequences Java development. There is almost no reason
>> anymore
>> > to develop a (Java) client application. A modern web application looks
>> as
>> > cool as a desktop application, runs also full screen, runs also offline,
>> > starts much faster and has virtually no system requirements and is
>> easily
>> > distributed.
>> >
>> > It would have been nice to have something light and kicking ass running
>> the
>> > next generation JDK8 applet in your browser. But who's still reading
>> this
>> > sentence when they read the word "applet" of the previous sentence ? :-)
>> >
>>
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[The Java Posse] Re: The new JavaZone-video - The JavaHeist

[Carl Jokl]

I am also not a fan of all the bad language. I did watch it through to the 
end but it grated on me.

On Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:45:16 AM UTC+1, Morten A-Gott wrote:
>
> This year, featuring Alan Ford from "lock stock and two smoking 
> barrels". 
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXvm76e2X1Q&feature=player_embedded


On Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:45:16 AM UTC+1, Morten A-Gott wrote:
>
> This year, featuring Alan Ford from "lock stock and two smoking 
> barrels". 
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXvm76e2X1Q&feature=player_embedded

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: So long (Joe) and thanks for all the fish!

[Carl Jokl]

I wasn't too surprised that Joe decided to leave as many of his remarks for
a while have implied that he wasn't sure if he was that enthusiastic about
the subject matter anymore. Still I would wish him all the best with his
future plans.

On 19 April 2012 08:36, Bruce Chapman  wrote:

>  I Will miss you Joe, but on the bright side, we might get to find out who
> "Brian Ehmann, The Javaposse intern" is!!!
>
> It will be hard to claim journalistic balance when patents are discussed
> herafter.
>
> Bruce
>
>
> On 19/04/2012 12:22 p.m., Bouhamza Khalil wrote:
>
> Hello Joe,
>
>   I have been listening to the podcast for a number of years now, and
> I truly enjoyed listening to it, especially conversations you have been
> part of.
>  You usually came with a different and a very interesting perspective
> to the discussed topic, which always was very enriching.
>  It sounds you are enjoying your job at Tesla,  I found Tesla CEO podcast
> on
> Stanford ecorner  very intersting, Tesla sounds like a very fun place to
> work at.
>
>   I hope you will still chime in from time to time, you will be doing
> a good thing :-)
>
>  Thanks a lot for the fun episodes and all the best for the job at Tesla,
> Cheers,
> Khalil
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Bob Rullo  wrote:
>
>> +1 for a design podcast Joe!
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 12:01 PM, pforhan  wrote:
>>
>>> Joe, if you start a design podcast, I'll be sure to listen in.
>>>
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[The Java Posse] Re: Dick Wall in London

[Carl Jokl]

Oh well.

Thats fine. It was just a thought. I should probably go to the
roundup. At least with my new Job for the first time I might be able
to afford to do it.

Carl

On Apr 16, 12:53 pm, Kevin Wright  wrote:
> I think it's fair to say that he won't be around on the evening of the 17th:
>
> http://days2012.scala-lang.org/node/472
>
> On 16 April 2012 12:28, Carl Jokl  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I guess this serves me right for not keeping up with the podcasts
> > probably but I was working my way backwards through the last 3 to try
> > and get up to date.
>
> > I then suddenly hear "Dick Wall will be doing a talk at Scala Days at
> > the Barbican in London on the 17th and 18th of April"
>
> > Then I look and say oh...that's tomorrow then...
>
> > Although it is too late for the conference (and I am only beginning to
> > learn Scala anyway) I may be forgiven of the thought process
> > of ...Well Dick Wall is in London and coincidentally these days I am
> > in London too.
>
> > I don't know if the London Dick Wall's London itinerary is all full up
> > but if not it might be nice to at least say hello if that isn't too...
> > fanboyish.
>
> > The London Java User Group is having their monthly informal get
> > together on the evening of the 17th at the Slug and Lettuce but I
> > don't know if Dick Wall would be likely to be going to that as there
> > might be lots of other things to see and do in London during a short
> > visit.
>
> > --
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>
> --
> Kevin Wright
> mail: kevin.wri...@scalatechnology.com
> gtalk / msn : kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com
> quora:http://www.quora.com/Kevin-Wright
> google+:http://gplus.to/thecoda
> 
> twitter: @thecoda
> vibe / skype: kev.lee.wright
> steam: kev_lee_wright
>
> "My point today is that, if we wish to count lines of code, we should not
> regard them as "lines produced" but as "lines spent": the current
> conventional wisdom is so foolish as to book that count on the wrong side
> of the ledger" ~ Dijkstra

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[The Java Posse] Dick Wall in London

[Carl Jokl]

I guess this serves me right for not keeping up with the podcasts
probably but I was working my way backwards through the last 3 to try
and get up to date.

I then suddenly hear "Dick Wall will be doing a talk at Scala Days at
the Barbican in London on the 17th and 18th of April"

Then I look and say oh...that's tomorrow then...

Although it is too late for the conference (and I am only beginning to
learn Scala anyway) I may be forgiven of the thought process
of ...Well Dick Wall is in London and coincidentally these days I am
in London too.

I don't know if the London Dick Wall's London itinerary is all full up
but if not it might be nice to at least say hello if that isn't too...
fanboyish.

The London Java User Group is having their monthly informal get
together on the evening of the 17th at the Slug and Lettuce but I
don't know if Dick Wall would be likely to be going to that as there
might be lots of other things to see and do in London during a short
visit.

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[The Java Posse] Re: hotspot and stuff

[Carl Jokl]

In that case then it may be better to live with the immutability and
the performance and memory impact of that.

On Mar 1, 3:23 pm, Kirk Pepperdine  wrote:
> On 2012-03-01, at 4:17 PM, Carl Jokl wrote:
>
> > Doesn't the StringBuilder use it?
>
> part of the same problem.. Pattern.matcher() uses it.
>
>
>
> > It might push some more responsibility on to calling code when passing
> > a CharSequence into a method that is not thread safe.
>
> hummm, encapsulation is broken
>
> Kirk

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[The Java Posse] Re: hotspot and stuff

[Carl Jokl]

Doesn't the StringBuilder use it?

Given that CharSequence was added later in the life of Java, maybe the
original intension was that it would be used for more things and to be
honest it could be. It would be safe to refractor existing APIs to
take a CharSequence wherever the immutable String behaviour does not
matter. It should always be possible to make a method parameter less
specific as long as the parameter is still compatible due to
polymorphism. It could be done, not to say that it would. It might
create problems for things like reflection if existing code is invoked
via reflection and is hard coded to expect a parameter type of String
but reflection can cause tricky situations anyway.

It might push some more responsibility on to calling code when passing
a CharSequence into a method that is not thread safe.

Carl

On Mar 1, 3:08 pm, Kirk Pepperdine  wrote:
> right, but name an (useful) API that relies on CharSequence...
>
> Kirk
>
> On 2012-03-01, at 4:04 PM, Carl Jokl wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I think it may cause complications protecting the internal character
> > array if String is not final. I suppose the character array could be
> > declared private and final. If not then any subclass would be able to
> > modify the internal character array. Without access to the internal
> > character array then the functionality is limited to that exposed
> > through the Strings public or protected methods. In that case
> > extension functionality may be little different from aggregating a
> > String inside another object or by having external String processing
> > methods on another object. It might not be as neat but using things
> > like static String processor methods and some static imports it could
> > be treated like passing a String to a function. Messing around with
> > things like equality and hash codes could break equality behaviour
> > guarantees and cause problems in all the places where Strings are used
> > as keys or values in collections. Having optimised code for processing
> > Strings in place would require a whole different String implementation
> > that is mutable. As regards a String interface, Java already has a
> > CharSequence interface that tries to in some way achieve this. Perhaps
> > some kind of MutableString class could be introduced that is not a
> > subclass of String but rather is an implementation of CharSequence
> > that makes changes in place. This would allow new code to use the
> > mutable String without accidentally passing it to any existing code
> > that relies on String being immutable. A CharSequence can be converted
> > into a regular immutable String anyway after all. If the code is that
> > performance and memory sensitive then perhaps more of the API's could
> > be modified to work with CharSequence implementations rather than
> > String. It is still possible to write your own CharSequence
> > implementation that is mutable today if you wanted to.
> > On Mar 1, 2:46 pm, Kirk Pepperdine  wrote:
> >> On 2012-03-01, at 3:37 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote:
>
> >>> On Thursday, March 1, 2012 12:20:26 PM UTC+1, KWright wrote:
> >>> I never really had a big problem with String being final, although the 
> >>> claims that it was for security reasons seem a bit weak given that 
> >>> strings are also immutable.
>
> >>> If String wasn't final, it would obviously not be immutable, duh.
>
> >> I can protect the underlying char[] without making the class final. Making 
> >> the class final kills all chance of extending which denies developers of 
> >> the tools that OO brings to the table.
>
> >> Regards,
> >> Kirk
>
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[The Java Posse] Re: hotspot and stuff

[Carl Jokl]

I think it may cause complications protecting the internal character
array if String is not final. I suppose the character array could be
declared private and final. If not then any subclass would be able to
modify the internal character array. Without access to the internal
character array then the functionality is limited to that exposed
through the Strings public or protected methods. In that case
extension functionality may be little different from aggregating a
String inside another object or by having external String processing
methods on another object. It might not be as neat but using things
like static String processor methods and some static imports it could
be treated like passing a String to a function. Messing around with
things like equality and hash codes could break equality behaviour
guarantees and cause problems in all the places where Strings are used
as keys or values in collections. Having optimised code for processing
Strings in place would require a whole different String implementation
that is mutable. As regards a String interface, Java already has a
CharSequence interface that tries to in some way achieve this. Perhaps
some kind of MutableString class could be introduced that is not a
subclass of String but rather is an implementation of CharSequence
that makes changes in place. This would allow new code to use the
mutable String without accidentally passing it to any existing code
that relies on String being immutable. A CharSequence can be converted
into a regular immutable String anyway after all. If the code is that
performance and memory sensitive then perhaps more of the API's could
be modified to work with CharSequence implementations rather than
String. It is still possible to write your own CharSequence
implementation that is mutable today if you wanted to.
On Mar 1, 2:46 pm, Kirk Pepperdine  wrote:
> On 2012-03-01, at 3:37 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, March 1, 2012 12:20:26 PM UTC+1, KWright wrote:
> > I never really had a big problem with String being final, although the 
> > claims that it was for security reasons seem a bit weak given that strings 
> > are also immutable.
>
> > If String wasn't final, it would obviously not be immutable, duh.
>
> I can protect the underlying char[] without making the class final. Making 
> the class final kills all chance of extending which denies developers of the 
> tools that OO brings to the table.
>
> Regards,
> Kirk

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[The Java Posse] Re: Latest best practices for unit testing thread safety / correct concurrent behaviour.

[Carl Jokl]

When I say putting the tests in the same package, I mean the same
package but with the tests in a separate source folder
from the rest of the code to preserve some separation.

On Feb 24, 1:36 pm, Carl Jokl  wrote:
> This might be a slight deviation but it is related to the same
> question. I am looking at a different approach, based on the
> suggestion given about designing for testability. In this case I
> created a lock listener interface such that I could notify before and
> after read and write locks are made internally within the class. This
> though highlights an issue of visibility. In a real system I may not
> want this functionality to be visible to avoid it being abused or used
> when it was only intended to be used for testing. In this case, as
> well as for other reasons, would the best practice be to keep the unit
> test in the exact same packages as the classes which they test? It
> would make sense anyway (though I admit I have usually put unit tests
> in some package hierarchy that identifies the packages as being for
> testing). The upshot of this in theory is that I can give methods /
> constructors added for testing package access to make them less able
> to be used inappropriately. This does not stop the methods or
> constructors being abused within the same package but given that Java
> does not have the concept of a 'friend' class I must compromise on
> protection levels.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Latest best practices for unit testing thread safety / correct concurrent behaviour.

[Carl Jokl]

This might be a slight deviation but it is related to the same
question. I am looking at a different approach, based on the
suggestion given about designing for testability. In this case I
created a lock listener interface such that I could notify before and
after read and write locks are made internally within the class. This
though highlights an issue of visibility. In a real system I may not
want this functionality to be visible to avoid it being abused or used
when it was only intended to be used for testing. In this case, as
well as for other reasons, would the best practice be to keep the unit
test in the exact same packages as the classes which they test? It
would make sense anyway (though I admit I have usually put unit tests
in some package hierarchy that identifies the packages as being for
testing). The upshot of this in theory is that I can give methods /
constructors added for testing package access to make them less able
to be used inappropriately. This does not stop the methods or
constructors being abused within the same package but given that Java
does not have the concept of a 'friend' class I must compromise on
protection levels.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Latest best practices for unit testing thread safety / correct concurrent behaviour.

[Carl Jokl]

I am aware of certain things I have done for years like imposing
thread sleeps around code with locks / synchronisation to increase
contention. However this increases contention but may not definitively
prove thread safety. I am still getting up to speed on everything
available to me in java.util.concurrent and have by no means mastered
it all yet. I just realise that I can't be the only one who needs to
test concurrency and so others must have found solutions to this
problem. I appreciate that TestNG has built in means of doing this
testing but I was hoping for a more programatic walkthrough of
techniques. The problem with the TestNG solution is that it ends up
being a black box and then I don't learn about what it actually is
doing behind the scenes.

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[The Java Posse] Latest best practices for unit testing thread safety / correct concurrent behaviour.

[Carl Jokl]

I have been doing some experiments as regards trying to write unit
tests for concurrent behaviour. I have made some progress on the
advice of others to use such things as CountDownLatch or CyclicBarrier
instances from the java.util.concurrent package. However, I still
think I could benefit from some guidance as to best practices and
techniques for unit testing that concurrent behaviour is as expected
an that locks work as predicted. Concurrency testing is traditionally
a pain to get to work effectively and there is always a fear in the
back of my mind that I have not covered some corner case. As
concurrency checking is becoming more and more important I wondered
what techniques people on this forum use when trying to unit test
concurrent behaviour.

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[The Java Posse] The name of the library that automatically rots code to test unit test coverage.

[Carl Jokl]

I remember hearing of a library or tool that would automatically make
small changes to source code to see if the change was picked up by the
unit tests. I cannot remember what that tool is called. Does anyone
know?

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[The Java Posse] Re: Experience to scaling up many cores and server clusters. Java and other technologies.

[Carl Jokl]

I suppose that the whole Stateless push is also encouraged by
Stateless Session Beans too.
I suppose certain problems can be complicated by a need for some kind
of common state and can get in the way of parallelism. One example in
the system I currently work with is the need to have a limit on the
number of messages sent that are of a given category. Sending vast
numbers of messages can be scaled in parallel but it gets complicated
if the system must guarantee that no more than a given number of
messages of that category are sent because then a central count needs
to be kept and updated in a synchronized manner.

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[The Java Posse] Experience to scaling up many cores and server clusters. Java and other technologies.

[Carl Jokl]

This is hopefully a quick question just to rationalise my
preconceptions about being able to scale up enterprise applications to
high numbers of cores and possibly clusters of computers.

My understanding is that this is something which has been successfully
achieved using JavaEE and Application Servers. I also understand that
to my knowledge that the application server is implemented to allow
itself to run in a clustered way i.e. scale over more than one
machine. In order to take advantage of this I understand that
applications running in this environment are required to functioning
within a number of constraints to enable the application server to be
able to scale or cluster the code.

I appreciate also that just throwing a system on an application server
will not automatically cause it to scale well and a lot of care must
be taken to eliminate or mitigate synchronisation bottlenecks and
manage the amount of shared state / data that the application servers
have to keep synchronised between them.

At this point this is still all theoretical knowledge as I have never
had the opportunity to work with a system that operates in this way.

Does Spring support this kind of clustering or is it really only EJB
that is designed for this?

Also I understand that other platforms, particularly C++ can also be
used for highly scalable systems. My understanding here though is that
it is usually a matter of building everything from scratch as C++
isn't really geared towards a general purpose application server
model. I would also assume a similar situation with Objective-C.

Even for Java, trying to build a highly scalable server system that
can be run on clusters of servers is a major undertaking if trying to
do it from scratch rather than using an existing application server.

Also, due to the number of companies that have and do run highly
scalable systems on Applications servers, access to individuals with
expertise in this area or documentation and example real applications
using this technology are more readily available than for other
technologies.

Trying to implement this kind of system from scratch even in Java (or
another JVM language) and in particular using lower level languages
like C++ is such an undertaking that it would be considered foolhardy
unless backed by a major company with deep pockets and lots of time as
well as by a team of very highly skilled people. For example Amazon is
able to use C++ in their highly scaled architecture but Amazon is a
very big company with a lot of resources behind it.

I just want to get some feedback as to whether my current perceptions
are fair or whether I am wrong about any of these assumptions. It
might be a bit of a moot point as I am not sure if a discussion about
this would come up for me but if it does I would like to feel prepared
with well informed and fair views on the matter.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Command Line based IDEs

[Carl Jokl]

Phil

Thank you for the suggestion. Unfortunately this IDE is not going to
be usable by either of us as work as our development machines are all
Linux boxes. Both XCode and AppCode are only available for OSX.
I own a Mac for my own personal stuff but am not allowed to use my own
machine at work for security reasons.

It seems to reinforce the point that I have only found usable
Objective-C IDEs on Mac O/S. It may stand to reason as that is where
the majority of people would use it. People building objective C on
Linux using GNUstep or other things might well just be too small of  a
base to expect an IDE to be developed for them.

On Jan 20, 3:28 pm, Phil Maskell  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> You mentioned:
>
> "I would not say that. He is bright enough and has a deep technical
> knowledge. I think he just has some extreme opinions. To be honest
> though, if XCode is the only GUI IDE (besides ProjectCenter which I
> mentioned doesn't seem to work for me) I know that can be used for
> writing Objective-C then why not use a console editor?  There are
> plenty advantages for Java but he is not a Java developer. "
>
> Give this a look -http://www.jetbrains.com/objc/
>
> Never used it as I haven't looked into obj C, but I use Intellij for Java
> and like it, this may be of use, not sure if its cross platform though (I
> guess its Java like Intellij, but may need some Mac libraries?). But he
> could run his build script from within it anyway, worth a look.
>
> Phil

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[The Java Posse] Re: Command Line based IDEs

[Carl Jokl]

> Your coworker sounds a bit... dumb.

I would not say that. He is bright enough and has a deep technical
knowledge. I think he just has some extreme opinions. To be honest
though, if XCode is the only GUI IDE (besides ProjectCenter which I
mentioned doesn't seem to work for me) I know that can be used for
writing Objective-C then why not use a console editor?  There are
plenty advantages for Java but he is not a Java developer.

Maybe I am somewhat more bothered by his taking the time to be
belittling towards those who do use GUI tools but I could also just be
taking his remarks more seriously than intended. I mean I hold some
opinions regarding the technical leadership still favouring emacs as
the best tool for Java development which seems a bit out of touch with
modern Java development practices. The difference is that I keep that
opinion to myself and at the end of the day developers can use
whatever they prefer. It does bother me a bit though if the tooling
ends up spilling over into the code style. Examples are lots of unused
imports (which most IDEs would highlight and make easy to remove) or
funky indentation possibly due to copy and pasting or just because of
trying to have everything fit within the character width of the
terminal. I don't mean things like splitting lots of parameters onto
multiple lines so that you don't have to scroll to see everything that
a method is called with. I have seen that, used it and don't mind it
(albeit still a bit of a throwback to console editing). It is things
like having the if statement indented but not the contents of them or
worse just that the indentation is all over the place. This may not be
just a console editing issue though and I recognise that.

> Hopefully, that's the place you are no longer working at.

Hold on to that positive feeling. I expect it will be true one day.
--
Cédric

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[The Java Posse] Re: Command Line based IDEs

[Carl Jokl]

You are right that the thread should be Console based IDEs. I don't
think the name can be changed now though (at least I have not found a
way).
The type of tool used can depend on the task I am performing. I prefer
a GUI for editing due to being able to have many files open and just
click between them (in principle possible with the console as well). I
particularly like the gui when I am debugging. the ability to just
hover my mouse over a variable and just see what it is set to I find
quite natural. I have used gdb and know it is possible to output the
value of variables from the console too but in that case I found
setting break points challenging because from the console I could be
looking at source files or in gdb but not both. It might have been
more challenging than it would otherwise be because the code was
objective-c and getting the method names right for break points I
found a bit of a challenge. Also a GUI IDE can combine multiple bits
of data together from different sources in the same display such as
allowing me to browse a database schema my code has to interact with.
Performing queries from the console in PostgreSQL I frequently find
the number of columns will be too big for the width of the console and
so the rows will wrap and then it gets really hard to follow which
value is in which column.

On Jan 19, 1:11 pm, "Ricky Clarkson"  wrote:
> It sounds like we're around the same age, but I vastly prefer command-line 
> tools, as I can automate them, they're quite often faster and they work on 
> machines I only have non-graphical access to.
>
> Beyond that I should have pointed out a flaw in your original question.
>
> Generally, command-line tools are those that take command-line arguments and 
> more or less run without user interaction.
>
> That means a command-line IDE is pretty much impossible; you mean a console 
> application. What I said in the first paragraph of this mail refers to 
> command line tools, and I believe no matter the generation we should all be 
> comfortable with those. Console applications, the difference between 
> graphical and textual isn't as important as the featureset and usability 
> differences.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Carl Jokl 
> Sender: javaposse@googlegroups.com
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 05:23:31
> To: The Java Posse
> Reply-To: javaposse@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [The Java Posse] Re: Command Line based IDEs
>
> It makes sense that a command line IDE can in theory support many or
> most of the same functionality as a GUI IDE. The command line is after
> all
> just a different view on what can be just the same model. I just don't
> have enough experience of trying to do development with *nix command
> line editors
> to know what is and isn't supported just that lots of people rave
> about how great Emacs is.
>
> I think it can be a generational thing based on when people came in
> contact with Unix environments. I like most others didn't get proper
> exposure to it until University. This was post 2000 so GUIs even for
> Linux/Unix were the norm. I am still old enough to have worked from
> the command line and so have done a bit for both worlds. I just get a
> bit fed up sometimes with prevailing attitudes that real men must do
> everything from the command line to show how clever this is. It seems
> a lot less to do with efficiency and more to do with bravado and ego.
> Still if I had the same level of experience as others doing things
> from the command line then I am sure I might find it powerful. I am
> not sure it would be enough to make me want to give up my IDE though.
>
> On Jan 19, 12:32 pm, Josh Berry  wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 4:35 AM, Carl Jokl  wrote:
> > > It did make me curious though as to what kind of development power is
> > > available from command line editors like Emacs. I know that key
> > > features I like in IDE's is the ability to hyperlink through to a
> > > method declaration / class declaration or where a variable is
> > > declared. Also finding the usages of a method is really valuable to me
> > > as well as being able to apply various forms of refactoring. In theory
> > > a command like editor could support some or all of that. However I
> > > don't know what features are actually currently available.
>
> > Pretty much all of the navigation stuff that you named has been there
> > for ages in c like languages with ctags.  Even in vim I can ctrl-] on
> > a word and it will pop me a list of all of the places that symbol is
> > used.  I don't use emacs, but I understand that it can actually be a
> > bit more advanced than just ctags.  Just take a look at the scala
> >

[The Java Posse] Re: Command Line based IDEs

[Carl Jokl]

The sad thing is I paid good money out of my own pocket for a full
commercial licence of IntelliJ but these days I never use it. Not that
I have anything against it, I am just afraid of creating a dependency
on a tool that is not free (give or take the community edition which I
have not tried) when I work on a project with others that do not have
IntelliJ.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Command Line based IDEs

[Carl Jokl]

It makes sense that a command line IDE can in theory support many or
most of the same functionality as a GUI IDE. The command line is after
all
just a different view on what can be just the same model. I just don't
have enough experience of trying to do development with *nix command
line editors
to know what is and isn't supported just that lots of people rave
about how great Emacs is.

I think it can be a generational thing based on when people came in
contact with Unix environments. I like most others didn't get proper
exposure to it until University. This was post 2000 so GUIs even for
Linux/Unix were the norm. I am still old enough to have worked from
the command line and so have done a bit for both worlds. I just get a
bit fed up sometimes with prevailing attitudes that real men must do
everything from the command line to show how clever this is. It seems
a lot less to do with efficiency and more to do with bravado and ego.
Still if I had the same level of experience as others doing things
from the command line then I am sure I might find it powerful. I am
not sure it would be enough to make me want to give up my IDE though.

On Jan 19, 12:32 pm, Josh Berry  wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 4:35 AM, Carl Jokl  wrote:
> > It did make me curious though as to what kind of development power is
> > available from command line editors like Emacs. I know that key
> > features I like in IDE's is the ability to hyperlink through to a
> > method declaration / class declaration or where a variable is
> > declared. Also finding the usages of a method is really valuable to me
> > as well as being able to apply various forms of refactoring. In theory
> > a command like editor could support some or all of that. However I
> > don't know what features are actually currently available.
>
> Pretty much all of the navigation stuff that you named has been there
> for ages in c like languages with ctags.  Even in vim I can ctrl-] on
> a word and it will pop me a list of all of the places that symbol is
> used.  I don't use emacs, but I understand that it can actually be a
> bit more advanced than just ctags.  Just take a look at the scala
> support in emacs to see that it is not lacking ability.
>
> Add in fugitive.vim and you have a really good front end to a git
> repo.  :Ggrep "sdfsf" will let you quickly cycle through all git grep
> results ridiculously quickly, for instance.  (With emacs, you can just
> have an embedded terminal and then you are back to anything you can do
> in the command line can be done in the editor.)
>
> Refactoring is something that is often not as well supported, to my knowledge.
>
> And this is ignoring the quip a lot of *nix folks have about it being
> their ide.  :)

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[The Java Posse] Re: Sony's PlayStation Suite for Vita/Android Chooses C#/Mono Exclusively. What's the Alternative?

[Carl Jokl]

I realised one error in my argument i.e. that Visual Studio is not
written in .Net.
I would guess that MonoDevelop is though (I haven't really used it to
know though
I have often installed it as part of Linux and meant to try it out).

On Jan 19, 12:31 pm, Carl Jokl  wrote:
> Judging Java by Eclipse may not be fair as it is fairly bloated as
> IDEs go. Perhaps Eclipse vs Visual Studio might be more fair?
>
> That said I Like C# as a language and with Java had unsigned
> primitives. I don't see it happening for the sake of compatibility. I
> can see stack objects happening eventually given I have been in a
> presentation at the London JUG where someone has actually been working
> on this already. I am not sure how far into the future it would likely
> be though. I think what is going into Java 8 is fairly well
> established.
>
> To be honest though. The core game development community seems
> standardised on C++. I mean if you are going to criticise Java for not
> having many good games I also don't really know any specifically
> written in C# .net. I know they must exist but I may not of heard of
> any of them. In both cases I imagine more games will have been written
> for mobile devices. JavaME and Android have plenty between them. The
> latest versions of Windows Mobile will no doubt have plenty examples
> of C# games. In the mean time the most popular/recognised games tend
> to be C++.
>
> On Jan 19, 11:14 am, "Ricky Clarkson" 
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Compared to .NET Java has less predictable performance. For example, I 
> > wrote a date chooser and my code used quite a lot of anonymous inner 
> > classes. The first time the user used that part of the application there 
> > was a noticeable delay due to classloading, that I moved to application 
> > startup time just so that the user wouldn't see a delay.
>
> > It was actually a pretty small delay, less than a second, but in the 
> > context of an app that normally responds instantly it was visibly slow.
>
> > As I understand it, .NET loads an assembly at a time, not a class at a time.
>
> > It does generally 'seem' faster regarding GUI operations, which can be more 
> > important than actual number-crunching speed. That applies to Mono too.  
> > Work with Eclipse for a day then play with MonoDevelop and you'll probably 
> > notice a striking difference in responsiveness.
>
> > I have no idea whether MonoDevelop's responsiveness still applies when you 
> > have very large projects open; nothing I've ever done in C# hit the 1000 
> > line barrier.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: clay 
> > Sender: javaposse@googlegroups.com
> > Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:02:32
> > To: The Java Posse
> > Reply-To: javaposse@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: [The Java Posse] Re: Sony's PlayStation Suite for Vita/Android
> >  Chooses C#/Mono Exclusively. What's the Alternative?
>
> > On Jan 18, 9:09 pm, Josh Berry  wrote:
> > > I don't know what to tell you.  Game developers by and large avoid
> > > Java.  I think if you honestly want a good answer as to why, ask them.
>
> > Thanks Josh. I think I figured this out. And I think I can articulate
> > this better than most game developers could (I don't think game devs
> > have thought as much about this issue or the JVM as I have):
>
> > The most important missing feature is having easy to use, embeddable,
> > micro-VMs. Microsoft .NET doesn't have this, but the Mono guys made
> > their own implementation of the CLR with this as a primary concern.
> > There are no legal or technical obstacles stopping this from happening
> > on the JVM side, it's just no one has done it.
>
> > Game developers want to target iOS, Android, and PlayStations. Those
> > devices do not and will not run traditional system-level Java.
> > Embeddable micro-VMs are the solution and they don't exist yet on the
> > JVM side. I really wish I had gone to grad school for this type of
> > stuff, because I think this is a hot project but it requires a
> > specialized set of skills to do well.
>
> > The second issue is the programming language. Ideally, you support
> > multiple languages, but you still need a flagship language. Java, the
> > language, is behind the times. C#, the language, has incrementally
> > improved upon Java overall. However, there are other languages that
> > deliver even further incremental improvements. I don't think the game
> > development community is ready for the type theory, the deep
> > abstractions, and the radical nat

[The Java Posse] Re: Sony's PlayStation Suite for Vita/Android Chooses C#/Mono Exclusively. What's the Alternative?

[Carl Jokl]

Judging Java by Eclipse may not be fair as it is fairly bloated as
IDEs go. Perhaps Eclipse vs Visual Studio might be more fair?

That said I Like C# as a language and with Java had unsigned
primitives. I don't see it happening for the sake of compatibility. I
can see stack objects happening eventually given I have been in a
presentation at the London JUG where someone has actually been working
on this already. I am not sure how far into the future it would likely
be though. I think what is going into Java 8 is fairly well
established.

To be honest though. The core game development community seems
standardised on C++. I mean if you are going to criticise Java for not
having many good games I also don't really know any specifically
written in C# .net. I know they must exist but I may not of heard of
any of them. In both cases I imagine more games will have been written
for mobile devices. JavaME and Android have plenty between them. The
latest versions of Windows Mobile will no doubt have plenty examples
of C# games. In the mean time the most popular/recognised games tend
to be C++.

On Jan 19, 11:14 am, "Ricky Clarkson" 
wrote:
> Compared to .NET Java has less predictable performance. For example, I wrote 
> a date chooser and my code used quite a lot of anonymous inner classes. The 
> first time the user used that part of the application there was a noticeable 
> delay due to classloading, that I moved to application startup time just so 
> that the user wouldn't see a delay.
>
> It was actually a pretty small delay, less than a second, but in the context 
> of an app that normally responds instantly it was visibly slow.
>
> As I understand it, .NET loads an assembly at a time, not a class at a time.
>
> It does generally 'seem' faster regarding GUI operations, which can be more 
> important than actual number-crunching speed. That applies to Mono too.  Work 
> with Eclipse for a day then play with MonoDevelop and you'll probably notice 
> a striking difference in responsiveness.
>
> I have no idea whether MonoDevelop's responsiveness still applies when you 
> have very large projects open; nothing I've ever done in C# hit the 1000 line 
> barrier.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: clay 
> Sender: javaposse@googlegroups.com
> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:02:32
> To: The Java Posse
> Reply-To: javaposse@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [The Java Posse] Re: Sony's PlayStation Suite for Vita/Android
>  Chooses C#/Mono Exclusively. What's the Alternative?
>
> On Jan 18, 9:09 pm, Josh Berry  wrote:
> > I don't know what to tell you.  Game developers by and large avoid
> > Java.  I think if you honestly want a good answer as to why, ask them.
>
> Thanks Josh. I think I figured this out. And I think I can articulate
> this better than most game developers could (I don't think game devs
> have thought as much about this issue or the JVM as I have):
>
> The most important missing feature is having easy to use, embeddable,
> micro-VMs. Microsoft .NET doesn't have this, but the Mono guys made
> their own implementation of the CLR with this as a primary concern.
> There are no legal or technical obstacles stopping this from happening
> on the JVM side, it's just no one has done it.
>
> Game developers want to target iOS, Android, and PlayStations. Those
> devices do not and will not run traditional system-level Java.
> Embeddable micro-VMs are the solution and they don't exist yet on the
> JVM side. I really wish I had gone to grad school for this type of
> stuff, because I think this is a hot project but it requires a
> specialized set of skills to do well.
>
> The second issue is the programming language. Ideally, you support
> multiple languages, but you still need a flagship language. Java, the
> language, is behind the times. C#, the language, has incrementally
> improved upon Java overall. However, there are other languages that
> deliver even further incremental improvements. I don't think the game
> development community is ready for the type theory, the deep
> abstractions, and the radical nature of Haskell or Clojure. I think
> the most promising candidate is the forthcoming Kotlin. It definitely
> one ups Java/C# and doesn't require paradigm shifts and I'm hoping it
> won't have the compilation speed penalty and runtime speed penalty
> that Scala seems to have.
>
> What else do we want from Java: the super IDEs and the build tools. As
> I explained earlier, the Java build tools are really at the leading
> edge of the industry. And almost every dev I know that has used it
> would pick IntelliJ any day over Visual Studio.
>
> But to resummarize an earlier point: I don't think runtime performance
> is a problem with the JVM. Even without "unsafe" casting and memcpy
> type tricks and the issues you raised, the JVM generally outperforms
> both Microsoft's CLR and Mono. The two of you in this thread that
> insist this is a problem are just not being reasonable.
>
> > Also, it isn't like anyone here dis

[The Java Posse] Re: Command Line based IDEs

[Carl Jokl]

I already use netbeans. Eclipse has some graphical problems on
my (latest) version of Ubuntu Linux presumably due to SWT not being
kept up to date properly

On Jan 19, 10:00 am, Steven Siebert  wrote:
> You might find this approach interesting:
>
> http://jvi.sourceforge.net/
>
> use netbeans
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 4:35 AM, Carl Jokl  wrote:
> > I wanted to ask whether anyone has experience of the capabilities of
> > command line IDEs? I ask because I have not really tried doing any
> > development in anger from the Linux / Unix command line. I have only
> > really tweaked configuration files with vi and that is about it.
>
> > I ask because I have a co-worker who has been rather condescending
> > about the use of any GUI tools. He seems determined never to use them
> > and thinks he can do everything more efficiently from the command
> > line. I would suppose it is harder given he is an Objective-C
> > developer on Linux. I don't think the options for Objective-C tools
> > and IDEs are that great to begin with unless you are on the Mac. I
> > tried a GNUStep IDE on Ubuntu called ProjectCenter. On the latest
> > Ubuntu I found the UI so buggy and flaky that the whole IDE is frankly
> > unusable. I have come back to it more than once and each time given up
> > because I can't work it (often through stupid things like mouse clicks
> > not being responded to or responding in the wrong place).
>
> > To be honest I know if someone holds such an extreme anti GUI tools
> > opinion and is determined not to use them then it is pointless arguing
> > with someone like that because I don't think they are really prepared
> > to be convinced anyway.
>
> > It did make me curious though as to what kind of development power is
> > available from command line editors like Emacs. I know that key
> > features I like in IDE's is the ability to hyperlink through to a
> > method declaration / class declaration or where a variable is
> > declared. Also finding the usages of a method is really valuable to me
> > as well as being able to apply various forms of refactoring. In theory
> > a command like editor could support some or all of that. However I
> > don't know what features are actually currently available.
>
> > Just curious.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "The Java Posse" group.
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[The Java Posse] Command Line based IDEs

[Carl Jokl]

I wanted to ask whether anyone has experience of the capabilities of
command line IDEs? I ask because I have not really tried doing any
development in anger from the Linux / Unix command line. I have only
really tweaked configuration files with vi and that is about it.

I ask because I have a co-worker who has been rather condescending
about the use of any GUI tools. He seems determined never to use them
and thinks he can do everything more efficiently from the command
line. I would suppose it is harder given he is an Objective-C
developer on Linux. I don't think the options for Objective-C tools
and IDEs are that great to begin with unless you are on the Mac. I
tried a GNUStep IDE on Ubuntu called ProjectCenter. On the latest
Ubuntu I found the UI so buggy and flaky that the whole IDE is frankly
unusable. I have come back to it more than once and each time given up
because I can't work it (often through stupid things like mouse clicks
not being responded to or responding in the wrong place).

To be honest I know if someone holds such an extreme anti GUI tools
opinion and is determined not to use them then it is pointless arguing
with someone like that because I don't think they are really prepared
to be convinced anyway.

It did make me curious though as to what kind of development power is
available from command line editors like Emacs. I know that key
features I like in IDE's is the ability to hyperlink through to a
method declaration / class declaration or where a variable is
declared. Also finding the usages of a method is really valuable to me
as well as being able to apply various forms of refactoring. In theory
a command like editor could support some or all of that. However I
don't know what features are actually currently available.

Just curious.

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[The Java Posse] Re: VRML + Java?

[Carl Jokl]

I know in Open Wonderland, Google Collada format was used for the 3D
models. This uses the JMonkeyEngine which has a Collada loader built
into it. VRML is fairly dead now as far as I am aware. The problem may
be though if that is what you are stuck with due to your external tool
generating it.

On Jan 16, 11:14 am, "Fabrizio Giudici"
 wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 11:53:01 +0100, Carl Jokl  wrote:
> > java3d.java.net is the home of the latest Java3D implementation. The
> > project is out in the community now. The VRML loader seems to be split
> > of into a library on its own now as an optional download.
>
> The impression is that VRML hasn't had a lot of success since the last
> time I touched it... right? In any case, the VRML files to use are
> generated by an external tool, so I don't have much chances... at least
> for now. Thanks for the clarification.
>
> --
> Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
> Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
> fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.ithttp://tidalwave.it-http://fabriziogiudici.it

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[The Java Posse] Re: VRML + Java?

[Carl Jokl]

java3d.java.net is the home of the latest Java3D implementation. The
project is out in the community now. The VRML loader seems to be split
of into a library on its own now as an optional download.

On Jan 16, 10:48 am, Carl Jokl  wrote:
> From what I can see the VRML loader was a utility in Sun's Java3D
> utilities rather than core Java3D.
>
> On Jan 16, 10:43 am, Carl Jokl  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > That certainly used to be supported in Java3D. That project seemed to
> > still have some signs of twitching a while ago. I don't know if the
> > VRML stuff was dropped in later versions but certainly it was in the
> > earlier versions.
>
> > The use of 3D with Java has gone more in the direction of JOGL but
> > that never had built in support for working with VRML.
>
> > On Jan 16, 10:37 am, "Fabrizio Giudici"
>
> >  wrote:
> > > I haven't been dealing with VRML for ... I've lost the count of years.
> > > Googling around VRML + Java I seem to be finding very few and very old
> > > (1997!) resources. What's the state of the art? BTW, my needs are loading
> > > and rendering a 3D objects coded in VRML, in a desktop application. They
> > > are pretty simple objects, 3D representations of color gamuts.
>
> > > Thanks.
>
> > > --
> > > Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
> > > Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
> > > fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.ithttp://tidalwave.it-http://fabriziogiudici.it

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[The Java Posse] Re: VRML + Java?

[Carl Jokl]

>From what I can see the VRML loader was a utility in Sun's Java3D
utilities rather than core Java3D.

On Jan 16, 10:43 am, Carl Jokl  wrote:
> That certainly used to be supported in Java3D. That project seemed to
> still have some signs of twitching a while ago. I don't know if the
> VRML stuff was dropped in later versions but certainly it was in the
> earlier versions.
>
> The use of 3D with Java has gone more in the direction of JOGL but
> that never had built in support for working with VRML.
>
> On Jan 16, 10:37 am, "Fabrizio Giudici"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  wrote:
> > I haven't been dealing with VRML for ... I've lost the count of years.
> > Googling around VRML + Java I seem to be finding very few and very old
> > (1997!) resources. What's the state of the art? BTW, my needs are loading
> > and rendering a 3D objects coded in VRML, in a desktop application. They
> > are pretty simple objects, 3D representations of color gamuts.
>
> > Thanks.
>
> > --
> > Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
> > Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
> > fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.ithttp://tidalwave.it-http://fabriziogiudici.it

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[The Java Posse] Re: VRML + Java?

[Carl Jokl]

That certainly used to be supported in Java3D. That project seemed to
still have some signs of twitching a while ago. I don't know if the
VRML stuff was dropped in later versions but certainly it was in the
earlier versions.

The use of 3D with Java has gone more in the direction of JOGL but
that never had built in support for working with VRML.

On Jan 16, 10:37 am, "Fabrizio Giudici"
 wrote:
> I haven't been dealing with VRML for ... I've lost the count of years.
> Googling around VRML + Java I seem to be finding very few and very old
> (1997!) resources. What's the state of the art? BTW, my needs are loading
> and rendering a 3D objects coded in VRML, in a desktop application. They
> are pretty simple objects, 3D representations of color gamuts.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
> Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
> fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.ithttp://tidalwave.it-http://fabriziogiudici.it

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[The Java Posse] Re: ZDNet article about online security advises users to uninstall Java

[Carl Jokl]

I guess that the bundling allows things to keep working but it is not
exactly efficient that every Java app has to bundle its own Java with
it. I mean it has been typical for Windows games for example to have
the required version of DirectX bundled with it but this was an
installer so in theory it was installed so every app could use (albeit
it still meant each one has ended up bundling its own copy of it. Not
ideal but I suppose it works.

I suppose if I was a political spin doctor I could argue that there
would be no point asking people to remove Java if so many people
didn't have it installed already. The whole bundling other apps and
having the option checked by default is certainly a genuine pain. I
think the bad feeling generated by this is not worth the revenue
generated. It is not as if Java was the only installer that did this,
Flash was a big culprit too. Every time something tries to bundle
something else with the option checked by default it annoys me.

On Jan 12, 11:11 pm, "Fabrizio Giudici"
 wrote:
> Just adding that the embeddable JRE is described by this issue:
>
> http://java.net/jira/browse/MACOSX_PORT-105
>
> Might be worth while voting for it.
>
> --
> Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
> Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
> fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.ithttp://tidalwave.it-http://fabriziogiudici.it

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[The Java Posse] ZDNet article about online security advises users to uninstall Java

[Carl Jokl]

It is pretty blunt in the assessment, just get rid of it, you won't
miss it once it is gone. For a lot of people sadly it might be true
and maybe those who play Minecraft won't be reading an article like
this anyway.

Link: 
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/ten-little-things-to-secure-your-online-presence/9901?tag=nl.e539

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[The Java Posse] Re: ORMs and Immutability

[Carl Jokl]

I think my discovery of the day is in a CSV parser that has a comment
about how if the code below were written in C then it would use goto
in order to jump quickly from one large section to another but as goto
is not available in Java, instead it throws an exception to quickly
jump to another part of the code as part of the flow control. I think
I am falling deeper down the rabbit hole.

It does seem to bring the problem more into focus. I don't know if it
is a lack of awareness of accepted good practices (I am apprehensive
about saying "best practices" because I know of those who hate that
term and think "best practices" are generally subjective and end up
being corporate speak like leveraging synergies). It seems what I have
seen implies more and more a general attitude of "We know better" and
treatment of these design patterns and principles as unnecessary time
wasting exercises invented by consultants so that they can take more
time over things and therefore make more money. I also wonder if the
comment might have related to experience with the company actually
hiring a consultant to do something and no doubt the consultant would
probably have programmed rather differently to the regular
programmers.

I know also I should be careful because this is a public group and I
cannot be sure that my comments could not be discovered. As much as
perhaps I therefore might be better not to discuss current work issues
here, I have done so knowing the risks given that otherwise I would be
left feeling pretty isolated.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Does JSF make sense in a HTML5 world?

[Carl Jokl]

Can you be more specific about new features in HTML 5 that make what
the Web Frameworks do redundant? This is not a loaded question I just
have heard mostly about things like the canvas tag and integrated
audio and video tags and not much about the other bits which affect
this. I also am not sure whether HTML 5 includes much in the way of
changes to JavaScript from the document I read but I may have been
mislead or have misunderstood. I have heard of "web sockets" which I
can only guess are some kind of new APIs to tap into Socket
communication maybe but all I have heard is the name so I might be
totally wrong about what they do. Then there are optional technologies
like WebGL that Microsoft seems to have no interest in implementing.

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[The Java Posse] Re: ORMs and Immutability

[Carl Jokl]

Back to the subject of Immutability with domains. What occurred to me
is that there is a difficulty in any domain relationship where Domain
A has a reference to Domain B and Domain B holds a reference back to
Domain A (where you don't want any duplication of objects). Due to any
standard database loading or even object instantiation requiring
either Domain A or Domain B to be created first, the first cannot get
a reference to the second when created this way and if it is immutable
then it cannot set the reference later. The only way I can think of
that I think would work is if Domain A creates Domain B in its
constructor passing a reference to itself and then assigning it to the
final internal field. This makes the domain loading a bit tricky as it
may require having some mutable objects or builders first and then
using those to hold to data needed to create one Domain and the other
in the first Domains constructor.

It made sense that this should work in my head last night as I lay
awake unable to sleep with too much on my mind. I was tired though so
I might have missed something. It might also be desirable to avoid
having two way references like this as much as possible anyway.

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[The Java Posse] Re: ORMs and Immutability

[Carl Jokl]

That is where I acknowledge my own fault in that on company time I am
at their digression as to what I should be spending it on. I think he
had every right to be angry about that because I wish I had just done
it all in my own time. One difficulty is that I have a desktop for
work and security won't permit me from working on the code on my own
laptop and I have no way of working on things at home. I can stay late
after work but am not able to lock up because I don't have a key or
alarm user meaning when the last person who can lock up goes I get
kicked out.

This is probably my favourite like from the JIRA comment but I will
take out the name of the company from the package:

"Hmmm  I noticed these new "uk.co.x.model" classes. I happen to
dislike very much extensive use of model classes
which in my view is an over-engineered, unproductive waste of time
typical of code written by consultants. And, it's completely
inconsistent with the existing codebase."

You are right that it is totally inconsistent with the existing
codebase. I am glad of it because the existing code base is probably
the worsted structured, messy code I have worked on ignoring an entire
catalogue of best practices that I have taken for granted at other
companies. Unproductive waste of time typical of code written by
consultants. Ouch. I am glad I can laugh at this because otherwise I
could cry.

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[The Java Posse] Re: ORMs and Immutability

[Carl Jokl]

The demonstration domain classes that I had been working on went down
like a lead balloon. My supervisor thought the whole endeavour was a
waste of time and could not see any benefit. I was in the wrong
genuinely for having spent too much time on it. Not that I originally
intended to but it took a bit longer because I knew I could not use an
ORM and so experimented a bit with creating my own lazy loading proxy
class to get a referenced domain. Also working on it without
consulting him. I didn't because if feared he would shoot down the
whole idea before I had a proof of concept from which to demonstrate
how much easier it would be to code to an object with all the types
preserved than mess around with arrays of Strings or random String
values stored in the session. Also I might have been able to get some
other developers to back me up if I could demonstrate what I had in
mind rather than just talk about it. I am still fairly new and have
been working on bug fixes while learning the system. It seemed to be a
point in my employment when I would have more time to work on things
like this than later when I am up against pressing deadlines. Still
hindsight is always 20/20. I did a lot of work on it out of hours but
some of it was in hours.

I think the discussion is probably not going to go further from my Job
perspective. If I cannot seem to convince my technical manager of the
benefit then I can't very well keep working on the prototype and he
would see the commits to subversion even if I did it out of hours
(albeit I could work purely on it as a local copy) and I have lost
enthusiasm to be honest given how badly it went town.

If I thought the face to face conversation was sufficiently awkward,
today I found the scathing remarks made on JIRA when he first
discovered the classes and it had caused some problem on the test
server due to a missing dependency. I blame that partially on the
fragility of the build process using make and declaring every file and
directory individually which is both tedious and error prone.

I have taken my work out of subversion but made a local backup first
so I have not lost it.

I am annoyed at myself for things I see I did wrong but it did achieve
one thing which is answering my question about how much hope I can
have about making the system significantly better in the future. Sorry
for the tone of the post but I am in a perfectly foul mood right now
(and thinking of updating my Monster profile over Christmas). In the
mean time I will just have to take my String arrays and like it.

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[The Java Posse] Re: JavasScript as a first language

[Carl Jokl]

One shame with JavaScript is its limited approach to being able to
include or import other libraries. In a web page though as long as the
JavaScript tags are in the right order so that they are included
properly it may not be such an issue.

I suppose people need to start with something simple. I would hope
thought that they would move on to something more powerful eventually.
I think the industry is tending to churn out far to many mediocre
programmers these days. As much as starting with C was a really tough
learning curve, it is good for separating the wheat from the chaff in
terms of those who have the aptitude to be good programmers rather
than just mediocre ones. I am glad at least that we aren't talking
about teaching using VisualBasic. It is one thing hiding detail for
simplicity and another to use a language that teaches bad programming
style.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Model View Controller and ORM

[Carl Jokl]

Perhaps I should just say separation of presentation from logic. The
web is certainly different from traditional, rich client UI but I
think the roles can still be identified such as the HTML page on the
client being the view and the Servlet being the controller and the
data objects / model objects being the model. The principles of MVC
hold in that the view should be replaceable by connecting the model to
a different controller and in turn this can get connected to a
different view. In this case, if the Servlet is just acting as a
controller go between, pushing data into a HTML page and then pulling
the response to that data from the next request to push the next lot
of data then it is still kind of controller shaped in spite of lacking
any direct way to listen for data on the client (albeit AJAX could
provide some loose ability to do so). If the application follows this
design the same model objects could be connected to a different
controller that displays the data in say a Swing or JavaFX
application. In that sense you still have the ability to interchange
views.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Model View Controller and ORM

[Carl Jokl]

I don't know that unit testing has been used that I am aware of in
this system. I have been using it myself for some of my own code. The
pain exists that building the source is hard because it uses auto
generated wrappers around GNUStep objective C objects. This means that
to build the Java requires a special build process using the GNUStep
make system extensions. I cannot simply run my unit tests in the IDE
because the IDE cannot build the source itself. I know it probably
should be possible to set up running the unit tests from the command
line after the source has been built externally.
On Dec 21, 5:05 pm, Greg Reddin  wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Carl Jokl  wrote:
> > I have not come across someone who is against the model view
> > controller pattern and so was not really prepared for that. I don't
> > know what I should do or how I could better defend MVC. MVC to me
> > improves cohesion of a system which each class having a well defined
> > responsibility rather than big bloated classes where the classes
> > contain model, view and controller functionality all mixed together.
>
> I think you are correct. I'll agree with others who have stated that
> this is not specific to MVC. MVC is simply an attempt to keep the
> proper separation of concerns. In your current system how do you
> perform maintenance? IOW, how do you verify that one component is
> working correctly as you make changes? A "0-layer" approach means you
> pretty much have to wait till you're done coding it, fire up the
> system in a test environment, and run it to see if it works. A layered
> system allows you to build test cases for each part and test it
> completely separate from anything else. This helps you to isolate
> problems. It also helps you to have confidence when moving from one
> thing to another that the thing you just wrote really works.
>
> In our world we've duplicated some demo data that we use for our unit
> tests. We also use mock objects to imitate this data as it moves
> through our system. So as we work on each piece we can work on it in
> isolation and verify how it reacts to real world situations. We've
> also built a good set of test cases over the last couple of years to
> catch a lot of regressions. Now I can have confidence when I do a
> refactor that, as long as the system still passes the set of test
> cases we've built, the refactor is good.
>
> This is very difficult to do in a non-layered architecture. You really
> can't have that kind of confidence as you're working. Developers then
> don't really know how to estimate progress because they don't know how
> far from being "done" they are with a task. So everything looks rosy
> until the final few days before a release when no one can seem to get
> anything to work. At least that's my experience.
>
> So my main arguments for separation of concerns are 1) confidence in
> each piece in isolation, 2) better regression testing, 3) more
> accurate progress reporting, which leads to 4) better project
> management.
>
> If there's a downside to this approach it is that all the test cases
> take a long time to write. However, I'd argue that it's still quicker
> than blind debugging where you really don't know what affect your
> changes are having until everything is done. The difference is that
> you will learn to estimate the time it takes to write tests. You can't
> estimate the time you'll spend fixing bugs.
>
> HTH,
> Greg

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Model View Controller and ORM

[Carl Jokl]

The point is that I accept the down side of the domains is that you have to
add attributes to your domain objects or change them whenever your table
changes. This can be a lot of work if you table is changing all the time.
The positive side can be if these domains are more than just dumb data
container but actually have some functionality in side them that can work
on the data.

I might favour a map of Objects by String keys so that number wrappers and
dates can be supported. Perhaps I might be successful in getting that much
of a change. I wonder if the argument against could be the extra overhead
of looking up values in a map vs the speed of looking up at a given index.
It may not make that much performance difference but a map lookup is
slower. However on the other hand it is less fragile. Perhaps an object
that has an array of the column names and a list of maps of Strings to
Objects for the row values. The column names can keep the values in the
right order when doing arbitrary display of tabular data in the same order
as the query results.

On 21 December 2011 16:55, Steven Huwig  wrote:

> Ouch. I hadn't really considered arrays of strings addressed positionally.
> I had imagined maps of strings (data element names) to values. This sounds
> pretty awful -- good luck.
>
> On Dec 21, 2011, at 11:45 AM, Carl Jokl  wrote:
>
> > This is the argument I might have expected and would have more readily
> > accepted. If the database changes so often that it makes keeping the
> > domain objects up to date a nightmare then it is harder to justify.
> > There is a flip side though. Without any domain objects then the
> > application is getting hard coded to index positions in an array or
> > collection of values or looking up values from a map. In the specific
> > application I am working with it is an array of Strings regardless of
> > what the underlying values are and so if I actually want to work with
> > the data it involves parsing it first from a String at a given index
> > (which is also fairly fragile). Still even this could be improved upon
> > if the array of Strings were changed to an array of Objects. The
> > toString() method can be called on any Object to make it a String
> > again as needed but at least some type data gets preserved that way.
> >
> > On Dec 21, 3:09 pm, Steven Huwig  wrote:
> >> My opinion is that the term "MVC" is often misapplied to simple
> separation of presentation from program logic. Moreover, it's an
> architecture that doesn't actually need to be reflected in the code
> structure of typical web applications. In a web application, the browser is
> the view, the web server is the controller, and whatever backend code there
> is is the model. There's often no need to try to subdivide the backend code
> into MVC again, because the backend code should be leaving presentation up
> to the browser. Sure, it's good to keep formatting separate from database
> updates, but that's not the same as trying to shoehorn the whole system
> into one pattern from Smalltalk that's been extended past its original
> scope.
> >>
> >> As far as domain objects go, "too many classes" isn't a very good
> objection. "Too many places to change when changing a single feature" is a
> better one. I have to admit that every web application that I've seen that
> used domain objects wasn't better for having used them. That's because
> business requirements for display, logic, and workflow were always
> changing, and solidifying these things into domain objects would only make
> things more complicated to update. The tradeoff that the business was
> making for such flexibility was having weaker interoperability and brittler
> business logic and automation.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Steve
> >>
> >> On Dec 21, 2011, at 7:24 AM, Carl Jokl  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> I would like to sanity check my opinion a bit regarding MVC matters.
> >>
> >>> I have just had bit of a discussion with my technical manager
> >>> regarding the use of domain related objects and how they fit into
> >>> Model View Controller. I had been trying to create a demonstration
> >>> domain class that was something frequently used in the system.
> >>
> >>> The existing system does not have much of any model to speak of. The
> >>> model if anything would consist of Vectors of String arrays that
> >>> represent rows of results returned from a query.
> >>
> >>> This is very generic in the extreme but it makes me 

[The Java Posse] Re: Model View Controller and ORM

[Carl Jokl]

This is the argument I might have expected and would have more readily
accepted. If the database changes so often that it makes keeping the
domain objects up to date a nightmare then it is harder to justify.
There is a flip side though. Without any domain objects then the
application is getting hard coded to index positions in an array or
collection of values or looking up values from a map. In the specific
application I am working with it is an array of Strings regardless of
what the underlying values are and so if I actually want to work with
the data it involves parsing it first from a String at a given index
(which is also fairly fragile). Still even this could be improved upon
if the array of Strings were changed to an array of Objects. The
toString() method can be called on any Object to make it a String
again as needed but at least some type data gets preserved that way.

On Dec 21, 3:09 pm, Steven Huwig  wrote:
> My opinion is that the term "MVC" is often misapplied to simple separation of 
> presentation from program logic. Moreover, it's an architecture that doesn't 
> actually need to be reflected in the code structure of typical web 
> applications. In a web application, the browser is the view, the web server 
> is the controller, and whatever backend code there is is the model. There's 
> often no need to try to subdivide the backend code into MVC again, because 
> the backend code should be leaving presentation up to the browser. Sure, it's 
> good to keep formatting separate from database updates, but that's not the 
> same as trying to shoehorn the whole system into one pattern from Smalltalk 
> that's been extended past its original scope.
>
> As far as domain objects go, "too many classes" isn't a very good objection. 
> "Too many places to change when changing a single feature" is a better one. I 
> have to admit that every web application that I've seen that used domain 
> objects wasn't better for having used them. That's because business 
> requirements for display, logic, and workflow were always changing, and 
> solidifying these things into domain objects would only make things more 
> complicated to update. The tradeoff that the business was making for such 
> flexibility was having weaker interoperability and brittler business logic 
> and automation.
>
> Thanks,
> Steve
>
> On Dec 21, 2011, at 7:24 AM, Carl Jokl  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I would like to sanity check my opinion a bit regarding MVC matters.
>
> > I have just had bit of a discussion with my technical manager
> > regarding the use of domain related objects and how they fit into
> > Model View Controller. I had been trying to create a demonstration
> > domain class that was something frequently used in the system.
>
> > The existing system does not have much of any model to speak of. The
> > model if anything would consist of Vectors of String arrays that
> > represent rows of results returned from a query.
>
> > This is very generic in the extreme but it makes me feel like there
> > ought to be some domain objects in the system.
>
> > The domain objects would be the model with the functionality related
> > to what the domain objects represents being in the objects in close
> > proximity to the data that they work on.
>
> > My technical manager caught on to the fact that I had been working on
> > this code and didn't really approve failing to see what benefit it
> > would bring.
>
> > I tried to give some arguments as to being able to keep data an
> > functionality close together in a logical place an to try to avoid
> > duplication of code.
>
> > The discussion did not go well and I was left pretty deflated. My
> > technical manager does not believe in the use of the model view
> > controller design pattern. He also doesn't like the use of domain
> > objects either as he sees it as dramatically increasing the number of
> > classes in the system.
>
> > I have not come across someone who is against the model view
> > controller pattern and so was not really prepared for that. I don't
> > know what I should do or how I could better defend MVC. MVC to me
> > improves cohesion of a system which each class having a well defined
> > responsibility rather than big bloated classes where the classes
> > contain model, view and controller functionality all mixed together.
>
> > Are there really arguments against MVC?
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> > "The Java Posse" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to javaposse@

[The Java Posse] Re: ORMs and Immutability

[Carl Jokl]

In all seriousness though, is this how badly Hibernate is viewed these
days? Having an ORM seemed to make sense to me and still does in
theory. I know in practice I have hit plenty of obscure cases or
problems in Hibernate but I am not sure I would throw it all out as a
waste of time just yet and also it is not as if Hibernate is the only
ORM around.

On Dec 21, 3:37 pm, Martijn Verburg  wrote:
> I can't resist: Hibernate == Cake Mix -http://topsy.com/vimeo.com/28885655
>
> Cheers,
> Martijn
>
> On 21 December 2011 14:57, Graham Allan  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 21 December 2011 14:13, Carl Jokl  wrote:
>
> >> Was that the project that was mentioned in a lighting talk at the London
> >> JUG by any chance or a different one?
>
> > I presented it in a lightning talk at the LJC Open Conference, if that's the
> > same JUG meetup, then that was me :)
>
> >> I could see a benefit for immutable object for those that live in a
> >> Servlet container session cache especially if the web container could
> >> be clustered and everything in the Session needs to be replicated across
> >> servers. The mutable versions would play nicely with an ORM.
>
> >> At this point I am not using any ORM and there are no domain objects at
> >> all in the system apart from some demonstration ones I created. I have been
> >> demoing with plain JDBC population (which is tedious) but it avoid having 
> >> to
> >> add a dependency on the persistence API at this stage (though the mutable
> >> objects are ripe for modification in the future to add ORM annotations to
> >> them.
>
> >> At this point the work I have done may not go anywhere as the use of
> >> domain objects has not been well received so far.
>
> > To be honest, if I had a greenfield opportunity, I don't know if I would
> > pick an ORM. In my (admittedly limited) experience, ORM has caused as much
> > pain as it has saved us from, but I wasn't around to experience the codebase
> > without it, so it may be a 'greener grass' kind of thing. Also, if you're
> > exclusively going to be mapping to objects, relational database may be the
> > wrong choice, and it may be worth considering a nosql option. But, since
> > you're having trouble convincing your team just to model the domain
> > properly, nosql isn't likely to go down well.
>
> > HTH,
> > Graham
>
> > --
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> > "The Java Posse" group.
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> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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Re: [The Java Posse] ORMs and Immutability

[Carl Jokl]

Was that the project that was mentioned in a lighting talk at the London
JUG by any chance or a different one?

I could see a benefit for immutable object for those that live in a Servlet
container session cache especially if the web container could
be clustered and everything in the Session needs to be replicated across
servers. The mutable versions would play nicely with an ORM.

At this point I am not using any ORM and there are no domain objects at all
in the system apart from some demonstration ones I created. I have been
demoing with plain JDBC population (which is tedious) but it avoid having
to add a dependency on the persistence API at this stage (though the
mutable objects are ripe for modification in the future to add ORM
annotations to them.

At this point the work I have done may not go anywhere as the use of domain
objects has not been well received so far.

On 21 December 2011 13:49, Graham Allan  wrote:

> That kind of arrangement sounds familiar to me. The mutable versions are
> used for write operations (e.g. the user changing data through a web page),
> the immutable versions for read-only operations (e.g. performing
> calculations, generating reports etc). In my scenario I have the added
> problem that the mutable versions are by far the more common throughout the
> codebase, and  I use a mutable->immutable converter for trying to wean bits
> of the code off the mutable versions when they don't need them. It sounds
> like you're in a better position, where you can make the choice of
> immutable/mutable to begin with.
>
> If you want to have data changing in-place in your database, rather than a
> "clone with modifications and deactivate the old" model and you want to use
> the mutable versions in your code, then I don't see a way around having the
> different classes. Another approach would be to only deal with the
> immutable versions in your domain logic, and use something like the
> repository pattern to modify the mutable object when you want to persist it.
>
> I don't know if Hibernate is your ORM framework, but it has a feature I
> found handy for fetching immutable objects, the "select new" syntax.
>
> A tangential point, but there's other (better?) reasons to have immutable
> objects than just being thread safe, and that is how much easier it is to
> reason about them.
>
> And finally, on a shamelessly self-promoting (some may say 'shilling')
> note, if you want a way to automatically check your classes are/remain
> immutable, check out my project here:
> http://code.google.com/p/mutability-detector/
>
> Kind regards,
> Graham Allan
>
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[The Java Posse] ORMs and Immutability

[Carl Jokl]

While in the process of creating some basic classes relating do domain
objects a problem occurred to me. I know that immutability is quite in
vogue at the moment due to its ability to use objects with concurrency
without needing locks. Some of the domain objects I was looking at
implementing looked like the kind of thing that could be implemented
as immutable. However immutable domain classes strike me as not
working well or at all with ORM. ORM usually mandates objects with a
zero argument constructor and have all the important state available
through get/set pairs or at least internal fields inside the class
that can be set from the database. An immutable class is really like
the other extreme. It would put all the creation state in the
constructor because it cannot be changed later. For completeness the
internal fields can also be declared final just to make it more
obvious if anything would actually change state. I don't see this as
something that would be compatible with automatic ORM. It can still be
done manually with JDBC. I just wondered if anyone else has considered
this same problem and has any thought or insights.

I ended up having two implementations for each domain object or domain
object component. One implementation was immutable and the other was
mutable. Also I made a method that could be called to convert a
mutable object to an immutable version. This would mean in theory that
there is a mutable version which plays nicely with ORM and an
immutable version which plays nicely with multi threaded contexts.
This means though that each domain or domain component needs three
source files, a common interface or abstract base class, an immutable
implementation and a mutable implementation. This starts to feel like
possibly more work that in should be (I wonder if this would get into
the topic of other platforms that might be able to declare objects as
immutable explicitly in the language avoiding this extra work of doing
it by hand).

It is useful to sanity check my observations.

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[The Java Posse] Model View Controller and ORM

[Carl Jokl]

I would like to sanity check my opinion a bit regarding MVC matters.

I have just had bit of a discussion with my technical manager
regarding the use of domain related objects and how they fit into
Model View Controller. I had been trying to create a demonstration
domain class that was something frequently used in the system.

The existing system does not have much of any model to speak of. The
model if anything would consist of Vectors of String arrays that
represent rows of results returned from a query.

This is very generic in the extreme but it makes me feel like there
ought to be some domain objects in the system.

The domain objects would be the model with the functionality related
to what the domain objects represents being in the objects in close
proximity to the data that they work on.

My technical manager caught on to the fact that I had been working on
this code and didn't really approve failing to see what benefit it
would bring.

I tried to give some arguments as to being able to keep data an
functionality close together in a logical place an to try to avoid
duplication of code.

The discussion did not go well and I was left pretty deflated. My
technical manager does not believe in the use of the model view
controller design pattern. He also doesn't like the use of domain
objects either as he sees it as dramatically increasing the number of
classes in the system.

I have not come across someone who is against the model view
controller pattern and so was not really prepared for that. I don't
know what I should do or how I could better defend MVC. MVC to me
improves cohesion of a system which each class having a well defined
responsibility rather than big bloated classes where the classes
contain model, view and controller functionality all mixed together.

Are there really arguments against MVC?

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: I need clarity on Episode 371

[Carl Jokl]

I work in a company where all the developer computers run Linux. To be
honest this is a first as non of the other places I worked were like that.

On 7 December 2011 15:04, Jim McDonnell  wrote:

> Whoa, developers allowed to use linux?  Do you work in the wild west? Next
> you'll be stating something crazy like developers use Macs and the rest of
> the company uses PCs. (Can you tell I work in a VERY controlled
> environment.)
>
> This is probably another thread I should start - Do the folks on the
> podcasts/roundups sound typical or radical - because most opinions don't
> seem to reflect what I think is typical workplace reality.  Maybe I need a
> new job!
>
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[The Java Posse] Re: Non biased performance comparison between Java and Objective-C on GNUStep

[Carl Jokl]

GH!!! Today I came across a method that is nearly one thousand
lines long! So help me I am going to start writing a report on all the
issues with the code after working hours today.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Non biased performance comparison between Java and Objective-C on GNUStep

[Carl Jokl]

I intend to talk to my technical manager about my impressions. I am
still figuring out the best way of approaching it. I want to be
tactful about it and not upset him with anything I say. I am not
always the most tactful and I am still in the probationary period
where I know contractually my employment could be terminated at a
weeks notice. Therefore I would want to really want to think through
what I want to say and how I plan to say it before I discuss matters.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Non biased performance comparison between Java and Objective-C on GNUStep

[Carl Jokl]

For me personally, it is not just about the performance but having a
cleaner and more manageable system.

Setting up a new server could be as simple as installing Linux,
installing Java, installing the database and a Servlet container
container then dropping in the War and the system is running.

The existing system requires a bunch of extra work for the benefit of
installing GNU Step and also deploying the Java in such a way that GNU
Step and Java can reference each other.

Performance seems a focus of the technical manager. I have made
changes in the code that were aimed at making the system cleaner and
better architecturally structured but the question I get asked seems
to just be "will this be faster?"

I am approaching the problem on the terms I think my development
manager cares about. If it was a question of clean architecture I
don't know whether GNU Step talking to a Java web layer would have
been chosen. I believe my development manager was involved in the GNU
Step project and so I believed used it because he was a fan of the
technology rather than because it was necessarily a good fit. At least
that is the impression I get. I have not been with the company very
long.

The Java code in the system is probably some of the worsted I have
worked on. Hashtables and Vectors everywhere. Coding to
implementations including all the collections. The concrete
implementations of collections i.e. Vectors and Hashtables are exposed
in the class APIs. The code seems to involve lots of bloated Servlets
frequently with multi page long methods. Many standard Java
contentions can be ignored like using upper case package names not
following JavaBeans style but that is of lesser concern to me than the
coding to implementations and massive complex methods that should have
been broken down into smaller ones.

This system also rolls its own web framework and its own logging
framework.

I would have my work cut out for me just cleaning up the Java. The
Objective-C would be more liveable if the two systems were black boxes
with a well defined boundary interface for communicating back and
fourth but I think the use of wrappers means that Objective-C classes
will just be sprinkled liberally through the Java code.

All the Java code I have seen speaks to me of a lack of thought about
architecture or design patterns / principles. This might be explained
if the top priority is 'performance' or at least perceived
performance.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Non biased performance comparison between Java and Objective-C on GNUStep

[Carl Jokl]

I was thinking that most likely I should try to prototype. It may be
bit tricky though. I may only be able to work on a prototype out of
hours. The company is very security concious. I don't know I would be
allowed to checkout the source on my own computer to work on out of
hours. I have a desktop in the office. I might be able to put in some
extra time at the office but there is currently a problem with all the
users being used up on the office alarm such that newer employees are
not yet able to lockup or open up the office.

It remains to be seen what the political fallout would be to suggest
replacing the Objective-C code particularly from the Objective-C code
developers. Even if the company accepted moving to pure Java I think
the Objective-C developers are hardly going to thank me for making
their role redundant though I believe they also know Java so I would
hope it would not put their job at risk. At the end of the day I am
talking about 'porting' code and not writing new code from scratch so
I would not think the existing Objective-C work is wasted.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Non biased performance comparison between Java and Objective-C on GNUStep

[Carl Jokl]

I don't know if GNUStep preallocates or not. I might have to drudge
through the documentation and/or user groups to find out.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Non biased performance comparison between Java and Objective-C on GNUStep

[Carl Jokl]

If you were in my situation, would you feel comfortable putting your
professional credibility out on a limb to say that Java could be
faster than Objective-C to the technical manager?

In theory and from what I know I think it could well be faster. That
is an unbiased view and the unbiased view also hold that it is within
the margin of error for it to be a bit slower too. What I don't have
is any actual performance benchmarks which would give me empirical
evidence for comparison.

I wonder also if it could end up being anecdotal as I really don't
know if the suggestion of porting the Objective-C part of the system
to Java would be dismissed as totally impractical. However it is not a
huge company and the system isn't massive. It is big enough that it
could take significant time but not hopeless.

The other pain with the setup is that the Java code cannot be compiled
on its own. It uses a tool called Jigs to allow Java code to call
Objective-C by generating wrappers to make the objects look like Java
ones. I suppose this might be a GNUStep answer to SWIG with C++.

The compilation uses GNU makefiles because the extra dependency
resolution is being handled by GNU Step extensions to GNU make.

The practicality of this means every new Java file I create is having
to be added to a GNU make file. Each new package requires a GNU make
file in it and the parent package make file has to be updated to add
the new sub directory. This all feels like a bunch of extra tedious
work that I never had to do before when working with Ant. It is an
annoyance but liveable. When illegal argument guys argue the merits of
Ant vs Ivy vs Maven maybe they should spare a thought for the poor guy
using GNU make.

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[The Java Posse] Non biased performance comparison between Java and Objective-C on GNUStep

[Carl Jokl]

This is not any kind of flame bait thread.

I am hoping to get some unbiased information on the relative
performance difference between Java and Objective-C.

More specifically using up to date versions of the Java 6 JRE and
using an up to date GNUStep implementation of Objective-C both running
on Linux.

I can find quite a few articles with people comparing Java vs C++ but
I suppose Objective-C is more niche and tends not to be used in
comparisons.

I know that the opinion still prevails in many circles that Java is
slower and/or significantly slower than code written in C/C++. There
have been articles more recently stating that Java was capable of
outperforming C++ these days.

I am cautious with benchmarks because obviously if someone is trying
to prove a point, that person can be selective about using benchmarks
which support their case.

I know for example that Java has performance limits doing lots of
heavy floating point operations or trigonometry due to not using
native acceleration where it would cause the values to be less
accurate than required by the specifications (Though I believe this
was being addressed).

That used case may only apply to applications that use a lot of
floating point calculations. Many business web based or enterprise
applications may do very little floating point number crunching.

For the sake of context I am in a company that has a system where Java
is used with Servlets to provide a web front end to a system the core
of which is written in Objective-C running on GNUStep.

Considering the dates in some of the Java source I know the system
must have existed at least as long ago as the year 2000.
Back then the versions of Java would have been a lot slower. Java 6
included a big performance increase. It would have made sense back
then to argue that the Objective-C code was going to probably perform
better than Java. Now I don't think the difference would be as big. It
would be within my margin of error that Java may outperform Objective-
C due to compile time optimisation that can be done in Java that
cannot be done in Objective-C that is more geared towards dynamic,
runtime behaviour. In that case I would expect C++ to be faster than
Objective-C generally speaking.

I am hoping to get some feedback from the community to sanitise my
assumptions here.

I don't want to end up looking like an idiot if Objective-C
significantly outperforms Java.

The JNI overhead of having Java talk to Objective-C could cancel out
or more than cancel out any performance gains in Objective-C if the
difference is only slight. This depends also whether the cross
communication comprises of many small JNI calls vs few calls that do a
lot of processing before the call returns.

 Any performance information / experience would be helpful.

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Re: [The Java Posse] JavaScript JVM runs Java

[Carl Jokl]

That is kind of my point though. Flash did what JavaScript still cannot do.
The problem is that the plugin free purists now want rid of flash but
JavaScript still hasn't reached a point where it can do what Flash can do.
Being able to draw to a canvas only fixing one of many things ECMA standard
JavaScript platform (exposed platform in browser more than language). If
the purists don't want a plugin, a replacement needs to be an integral part
of a browser and not a separate plugin. Building Java on JavaScript doesn't
help much because the limits are still based the functionality permitted by
JavaScript in the browser.

2011/11/23 Cédric Beust ♔ 

>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 2:27 AM, Carl Jokl  wrote:
>
>> Having standard cross browser ways of doing things seems great in theory.
>> After about 15 years or so of promises that all the browsers will
>> standardise and do things consistently and repeated failure to agree on so
>> many things I am a bit cynical as to thinking this will ever change.
>
>
> I would argue that Flash achieved this goal, albeit not for much longer.
>
> A universal VM in browsers sounds as good now as it did fifteen years ago,
> and while I don't think this particular project (Java VM written in
> Javascript) will go very far for performance reasons, I'm curious to see
> where DART and NaCL will go.
>
> Writing Javascript on Chrome is a delight (debugger, breakpoints, variable
> inspections, etc...) but I'm looking forward to a post-Javascript world.
>
> --
> Cédric
>
>
>
>  --
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[The Java Posse] Re: Stephen Colebourne on Scala (ouch!)

[Carl Jokl]

Which Carl? There are several...

Don't make me sit you in the comfy chair and poke you with sharp
cushions!

On Nov 23, 3:02 pm, Kevin Wright  wrote:
> What! No Monty Python?
>
> I refuse to back down over this...  Carl would never forgive me if I did :)
>
> On 23 November 2011 13:48, Ricky Clarkson  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > **
> > I think you'd have been better off keeping the film quotes out of that.
> > Either the coffee isn't working (quite probable, it's made from powder by
> > a machine) or that was quite confusing.
> > --
> > *From: * Kevin Wright 
> > *Sender: * javaposse@googlegroups.com
> > *Date: *Wed, 23 Nov 2011 14:36:48 +
> > *To: *
> > *ReplyTo: * javaposse@googlegroups.com
> > *Subject: *Re: [The Java Posse] Stephen Colebourne on Scala (ouch!)
>
> > It's a bit more complicated than that...
>
> > Since the referenced podcast was recorded, the collections framework has
> > been steadily aggregating tests and fixes/performance enhancements from the
> > community.  It's definitely in better shape than it was back then.
>
> > Also, many of the subtle bugs (so not the stuff you're likely to encounter
> > on a day-to-day basis) originate from the pattern matching code.  This is
> > one of the oldest sections of the compiler code and grew organically long
> > before Scala looked like it had the potential to be a commercial success,
> > it's also got to be the single largest source of WTFs for anyone working in
> > the compiler source.
>
> > So the directors of the firm hired to continue the pattern matcher after
> > the other people had been sacked, wish it to be known that they have just
> > been
> > sacked. A shiny new and fully tested pattern matcher has instead been
> > completed in an entirely different style at great expense and at the last
> > minute. [1]
>
> > In short?  Yes, there's some less-than-perfect legacy code in there, as
> > with any well established codebase[3].  But it's most definitely improving,
> > and the nastiest code is invariably the stuff that has been most widely
> > used, so it's had plenty of testing one way or another.
>
> > [1] Not really[2], it was done lovingly with great care and attention,
> > over some period of time.  Nobody was sacked.
> > [2] But I couldn't resist the quote...
> >http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071853/crazycredits[4]
> > [3] And Scala's old enough that it was written when people still thought
> > that embedded XML was a good idea!
> > [4] We apologise for the fault in the footnotes. Those responsible
> > have been sacked.
>
> > On 23 November 2011 14:04, Jan Goyvaerts  wrote:
>
> >> Speaking of which - NO intention whatsoever to start a flame war ! - is
> >> it correct about the state of the testing ?
>
> >> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 14:42, phil swenson wrote:
>
> >>>http://blog.joda.org/2011/11/scala-feels-like-ejb-2-and-other.html

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[The Java Posse] Re: JavaScript JVM runs Java

[Carl Jokl]

Being concise isn't always my strong point but to say in fewer words:
Implementing Java on JavaScript is all good an well but the JavaScript
platform has to also be able to support fundamental features that the
Java (and other) platforms support otherwise you are just writing Java
that gets turned into JavaScript but still lack the support for
fundamental platform features needed to accomplish certain types of
tasks.

I have long since wished that the browsers would use some kind of VM,
frankly I would not care if it was a JVM, CLR LLVM or something else.
I would be happy with whatever I could get.

I see the problem being that no-one would agree on the VM. The backers
of the most popular browsers tend to have very incompatible political
agendas.

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Re: [The Java Posse] JavaScript JVM runs Java

[Carl Jokl]

I hope it is a positive thing that someone else feels the same about having
a VM in the browser that can be targeted instead of relying only on
JavaScript. I think I have mentioned the idea in the forums before though.

Despite it being fairly sound technology wise I have a feeling it will get
blocked by individuals with their own political agendas for not wanting it.

I also think the current push to get rid of all plugin technology is
probably going to get traction. The problem is that I think the plugin
technology will get abandoned to appease the current mentality of the
leaders in Web development. However I think that the replacement will be a
much more inconsistent across browsers than the plugin based solutions were
and probably be lacking in key functionality that the plugin solutions
could do but we will be pushed to accept this for the 'greater good'.

Many browsers tout that they support HTML 5 but how can they really if the
standard isn't due to be finished for years? All I seem to hear about for
HTML 5 is the canvas and the video tag (which ultimately reached no
agreement as regards a cross platform codec making it considerably less
useful).

Are any improvements actually coming in JavaScript? In particular, to have
anything like equivalent functionality to plugin technology will JavaScript
in the future support:

- Some core primitive types and full binary operations on those types for
bit twiddling (I know there is some support for bit twiddling but not to
the same extent as Java for example)
- Byte Arrays / manipulation of binary data
- Ability to open / work with / get info about Files
- Threading support

I know some individual browsers have proprietary extensions to support
these features but that is pretty useless for most who want cross browser
support.

In the past I have looked at non plugin solutions for certain types of
problems such as a file uploader that shows how much of a file has been
uploaded. JavaScript was a non starter because as far as I could find it
had no way of interacting with files.

Having standard cross browser ways of doing things seems great in theory.
After about 15 years or so of promises that all the browsers will
standardise and do things consistently and repeated failure to agree on so
many things I am a bit cynical as to thinking this will ever change.

I may be getting off topic now...
On 23 November 2011 08:52, Fabrizio Giudici
wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Nov 2011 09:02:53 +0100, Jan Goyvaerts 
> wrote:
>
>  Isn't this also called the Java Plugin ? :-P Just kidding of course...
>>
>> But this is a deja-vu situation from a decade ago of running applets -
>> because then you have exactly the same advantages: Sandboxing,
>> browser-independent, etc...
>>
>
> I seem to have seen drawing pixels to a canvas too, but in spite of that
> it's "new" thing in HTML 5 :o)
>
> Unfortunately, we're seeing reinventing wheels all the way...
>
>
>
> --
> Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
> Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
> fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
> http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it
>
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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Migration issues from Sun/Oracle JDK to OpenJDK

[Carl Jokl]

I suspect though that in the case of some of the worse issues such as font
rendering and graphical fidelity in general, if some solution is put into
place for either Java 6 or Java 7 implementations it will probably be used
in both. The Java specification doesn't concretely specify how things have
to look graphically or what the graphical performance must be like.

The things I came across on the internet regarding text rendering in Java
implied that the solutions put in place so far are known full well not to
be the best but resources are limited and there is already so many other
things to do that this issue is probably not going to get the same
attention.

I wonder if some of the text / font rendering couldn't be written in Java
using the graphics pipeline to perform the drawing. I suppose whether it is
implemented in Java or using a native library probably isn't so much of an
issue compared with it being easier to reuse some existing implementation
of text rendering rather than write a new one, especially to get things
done quickly.

On 17 November 2011 16:43, robilad  wrote:

> Another point to keep in mind is that Oracle JDK 7 is based on the
> source
> code in OpenJDK 7, while that was not the case for Oracle JDK 6 and
> OpenJDK 6:
> http://blogs.oracle.com/darcy/entry/openjdk_6_genealogy - so YMMV
> depending
> on whether you're using OpenJDK 6 or OpenJDK 7 packages from your
> distribution,
> in addition to other factors mentioned below.
>
> cheers,
> dalibor topic
>
> Java F/OSS Ambassador
> Java Platform Group @ Oracle
>
> On Nov 17, 1:50 pm, Carl Jokl  wrote:
> > I am creating this thread as I want to ask about individuals
> > experiences with migrating from the encumbered Sun/Oracle JDK to
> > OpenJDK?
> >
> > I have done some initial tests on the product developed by the company
> > for which I work. Using OpenJDK has some advantages given that Linux
> > is used both for developer workstations as well as the servers and
> > OpenJDK can be installed through the packaging system with all the
> > dependency management in place but the Sun/Oracle JDK is getting
> > harder to install via that means (and a non package manager
> > installation does not satisfy dependencies in the package manager
> > because it has no knowledge that a working version of Java is
> > installed.
> >
> > OpenJDK seems to becoming more mature and I know it has passed the
> > Java TCKs. Testing with our product so far, OpenJDK seems to be
> > running fine with one area of potential concern of failure (A bridge
> > between Java and GNUstep called JIGS). On the other hand I am
> > experiencing a problem using JChart (latest version). In one of the
> > observed charts the writing is all garbled on OpenJDK. I think this
> > could be some kind of Font issue. I believe the Sun/Oracle JDK uses
> > some encumbered fonts. It is a little strange though because I can't
> > find anyone mentioning that JChart has issues with OpenJDK and it
> > seems to be claimed to be OpenJDK compatible. Downloading and running
> > JChart's swing demo seems to work the same whether I use the OpenJDK
> > or Sun/Oracle JDK.
> >
> > Has anyone come across garbled text rendering for OpenJDK on Linux? If
> > so is fixing the problem straightforward?
> >
> > The answer to these questions may decide if it is worth trying to fix
> > whatever is the source of compatibility problems on OpenJDK or if
> > instead it is just better to keep using the Sun/Oracle encumbered
> > version.
>
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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Migration issues from Sun/Oracle JDK to OpenJDK

[Carl Jokl]

I managed to get font rendering under a Centos 5 server (with minimal
gui-less installation as per company instructions) by
installing  xorg-x11-fonts-Type1 through yum. This allowed font rendering
to work. The font used though was different from the Sun JDK. I though I
might fix that by installing the package for Sun java fonts. This actually
make the rendering worse with text that was supposed to be vertical drawing
at a slight diagonal.

It looks like font rendering is still kind of problematic on OpenJDK and
Oracle lots of other stuff to do such that it may not be addressed any time
soon.

At the end of the day the system work with and has been distributed with
the Sun/Oracle implementation of Java. I just thought it might be worth
migrating if it was robust enough these days.

This might be a little off topic but I am not exactly clear about what the
future plans are for the OpenJDK relative to the Oracle JDK. The
documentation says that the Oracle JDK will be based on OpenJDK. Is there
an intention to eventually no longer need any kind of proprietary JDK at
all and standardise on the OpenJDK?

Carl

On 17 November 2011 14:07, Simon Ochsenreither <
simon.ochsenreit...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Hi Carl,
>
> could possibly be a problem with the font renderer. OpenJDK switched to
> FreeType, while OracleJDK afaik still uses a proprietary one.
> I'm not sure if Lucida still ships as a font with the proprietary Java ...
> probably grab the font from OracleJDK if it still exists and try running
> program with that font and OpenJDK.
>
> Other possibility could be XRender. Did you try running with/without
> XRender?
>
> Good luck, let me know if something helped!
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Simon
>
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[The Java Posse] Migration issues from Sun/Oracle JDK to OpenJDK

[Carl Jokl]

I am creating this thread as I want to ask about individuals
experiences with migrating from the encumbered Sun/Oracle JDK to
OpenJDK?

I have done some initial tests on the product developed by the company
for which I work. Using OpenJDK has some advantages given that Linux
is used both for developer workstations as well as the servers and
OpenJDK can be installed through the packaging system with all the
dependency management in place but the Sun/Oracle JDK is getting
harder to install via that means (and a non package manager
installation does not satisfy dependencies in the package manager
because it has no knowledge that a working version of Java is
installed.

OpenJDK seems to becoming more mature and I know it has passed the
Java TCKs. Testing with our product so far, OpenJDK seems to be
running fine with one area of potential concern of failure (A bridge
between Java and GNUstep called JIGS). On the other hand I am
experiencing a problem using JChart (latest version). In one of the
observed charts the writing is all garbled on OpenJDK. I think this
could be some kind of Font issue. I believe the Sun/Oracle JDK uses
some encumbered fonts. It is a little strange though because I can't
find anyone mentioning that JChart has issues with OpenJDK and it
seems to be claimed to be OpenJDK compatible. Downloading and running
JChart's swing demo seems to work the same whether I use the OpenJDK
or Sun/Oracle JDK.

Has anyone come across garbled text rendering for OpenJDK on Linux? If
so is fixing the problem straightforward?

The answer to these questions may decide if it is worth trying to fix
whatever is the source of compatibility problems on OpenJDK or if
instead it is just better to keep using the Sun/Oracle encumbered
version.

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[The Java Posse] Re: London, possibly city living in general.

[Carl Jokl]

Thank you for your advice.

I had accepted the Job in London starting on the 1st of November.

As the job is in Kentish Town I opted to live somewhere on the
Northern Line outward from Kentish Town. On Tuesday I put down a
deposit for a flat in Finchley. I had spent a couple of days in London
looking at potential places to stay. I didn't have the option of
staying with anyone while I looked so I have gone straight into
renting somewhere. I also didn't have the opportunity of doing a house-
share with anyone I know but that might be possible in the future. I
expect to get a monthly travel pass and have actually had an Oyster
card for some time but have just fully registered it to allow me to
purchase monthly or greater season tickets. The cost of the monthly
season ticket will be less than I currently spend on travel in West
Yorkshire.

Carl

On Oct 28, 12:40 pm, Peter Pilgrim  wrote:
> Should've been London one-day Travelcard of 5 or 6 zones that will work
> across Buses, Tube (the underground) and Overground trains.

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[The Java Posse] Re: London, possibly city living in general.

[Carl Jokl]

That should be on a signs as you go into Leeds.

"Welcome to Leeds, considered worse than the 3rd World".

On Oct 8, 10:33 pm, Ricky Clarkson  wrote:
> Also, having been to Leeds and now living in the third world, the third
> world is better.  Or at least more optimistic, and of course warmer.
>
> If I still lived in the UK I'd have been aiming for London, as there's
> something I like about not having to drive everywhere and the culture it
> forms, plus the proximity to some of the programmers I'd most like to learn
> from.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 5:24 PM, vjosullivan  wrote:
> > It's a no brainer.
>
> > Leeds is further north than Edmonton, Canada (though not as far north
> > as Scotland).  Have you been to Edmonton?  It's living on the edge.
> > On a clear day you can see the north pole.
>
> > London, on the other hand, is much warmer.  It's on a level with
> > Calgary in tropical south Canada.  Did you know there's no word in
> > Canada for south?  How weird is that?
>
> > --
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[The Java Posse] Re: London, possibly city living in general.

[Carl Jokl]

I thought Canadians spoke English and/or French therefore you would
have "South" or "Sud".

It is all about the gulf stream. If it were not for that England might
have ice on its South coast.

On Oct 8, 9:24 pm, vjosullivan  wrote:
> It's a no brainer.
>
> Leeds is further north than Edmonton, Canada (though not as far north
> as Scotland).  Have you been to Edmonton?  It's living on the edge.
> On a clear day you can see the north pole.
>
> London, on the other hand, is much warmer.  It's on a level with
> Calgary in tropical south Canada.  Did you know there's no word in
> Canada for south?  How weird is that?

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[The Java Posse] London, possibly city living in general.

[Carl Jokl]

The job hunting continues though I now have 2 offers on the table.

The second interview and role are a company based in London. This is a
Java based role. I am really torn right now because probably the
biggest fear relates to the same thing: London. There is a big pull
about being right in the middle of it all. So many conferences happen
there and I would probably actually get to participate in a JUG for
the first time in my life. The problem is that it is a pretty big
unknown. I seem to see a recurring theme from people who I know who
have lived in London. London is fun and exiting at first but
eventually they get fed up with it, particularly the expense / having
to live in very modest accommodation to live there. There could be
advantages but realistically life is not going to be all conferences
and high five-ing Peter Pilgrim every morning. As much as the people I
spoke to ultimately got fed up and moved out of London they also had
the London experience for a length of time, which I have never had.

The last role for which I have an interview is in Leeds. I would not
need to relocate. With West Yorkshire it is the devil I know. I know
that I don't really like the area. High crime and often low average
levels of education as well as earnings. If it were not for having
most of my family and many friends here then leaving would probably be
a no brainer but it could also be a case of thinking the grass is
greener elsewhere.

I believe there are some in the group that live in or around London
and might be able to give some perspective. This might extend to city
living in general and other large and expensive cities in the world.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Does experience with other technologies make youless employable as a Java developer?

[Carl Jokl]

I did have one or two recruitment agencies that came to me with Jobs
involving VB .net. I gave a more tactful explanation to the agencies
that might have been summed up as "No thanks, I would rather be
unemployed than do VB". I have been very cautions when dealing
with .Net roles and really tried to test the quality of the developers
I am dealing with. There is nothing stopping individuals writing well
architected code in .Net but culturally unfortunately a lot of .Net
developers don't care as much about clean code as the typical Java
developers do.

On Oct 4, 5:11 pm, ricky.clark...@gmail.com wrote:
> Don't worry, that's a good thing.  It means that a crappy company just 
> filtered itself out of your job search.
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Carl Jokl 
>
> Sender: javaposse@googlegroups.com
> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 09:52:00
> To: The Java Posse
> Reply-To: javaposse@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [The Java Posse] Does experience with other technologies make you
>  less employable as  a Java developer?
>
> I am perhaps reactive after feeling a little spooked by a recruitment
> experience. A company dealing in Java technology chose not to consider
> me further. The feedback was that my C.V. (resume) was strong but they
> did not want to consider me because I had worked with .Net as well as
> Java.
>
> I am left feeling worried as I hoped to keep skills in both Java
> and .Net up to a good standard in hopes that I would have more career
> options. I thought I should therefore be suitable to both Java
> and .Net roles especially considering I have Sun Java certification
> but not as yet any for .Net. I should not judge everything by the
> reaction of one company but I am now worried that by trying to
> straddle the gap I have unknowingly started to burn my bridges into
> Java development.
>
> As many here work for Java companies and might be involved in
> recruitment I wondered about your thoughts. Would you or your company
> dismiss candidate who had done both Java and .Net in favour of people
> who have only worked with Java related technologies?
>
> --
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[The Java Posse] Re: Does experience with other technologies make you less employable as a Java developer?

[Carl Jokl]

They might be .net haters. I was a .net hater too before actually
trying it and wanting to find reasons to hate it on principle but
finding some nice features in there. In the end I found the culture
more of a differentiator than the technology. I still believe for
right or wrong that the kind of team / company you work with is a
bigger factor in happiness that the technology used. Maybe the Java
fanboy part of me is hurt to be rejected by a community I have openly
supported for some time even when being ridiculed for it by Java
haters.

On Oct 4, 6:01 pm, Robert Casto  wrote:
> Ditto. If they are that naive, you wouldn't have been happy.
>
> To take their side, they might want someone who is committed to one
> language, not spreading themselves out that thin. Or the rest of the team
> are .net haters?
>
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 12:57 PM, Martijn Verburg
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > To be blunt, you probably didn't want to work for them anyway. "There
> > is no silver bullet" - M
>
> > On 4 October 2011 09:52, Carl Jokl  wrote:
> > > I am perhaps reactive after feeling a little spooked by a recruitment
> > > experience. A company dealing in Java technology chose not to consider
> > > me further. The feedback was that my C.V. (resume) was strong but they
> > > did not want to consider me because I had worked with .Net as well as
> > > Java.
>
> > > I am left feeling worried as I hoped to keep skills in both Java
> > > and .Net up to a good standard in hopes that I would have more career
> > > options. I thought I should therefore be suitable to both Java
> > > and .Net roles especially considering I have Sun Java certification
> > > but not as yet any for .Net. I should not judge everything by the
> > > reaction of one company but I am now worried that by trying to
> > > straddle the gap I have unknowingly started to burn my bridges into
> > > Java development.
>
> > > As many here work for Java companies and might be involved in
> > > recruitment I wondered about your thoughts. Would you or your company
> > > dismiss candidate who had done both Java and .Net in favour of people
> > > who have only worked with Java related technologies?
>
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "The Java Posse" group.
> > > To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>
> --
> Robert Castowww.robertcasto.comwww.sellerstoolbox.com

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[The Java Posse] Re: JavaFX 2 officially released?

[Carl Jokl]

I think at the moment aiming it as a Swing companion or replacement is
the safest option given the level of anti plugin sentiment in the Web
development world. I still like it. That doesn't mean it will be
successful as I also liked Sun too.

On Oct 4, 5:47 pm, Cédric Beust ♔  wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Carl Jokl  wrote:
> > JavaFX was certainly hyped plenty under Sun and I remember the 1.0
> > launch with lots of build up including the Aint Your Dad's Java
> > podcast mentioning it incessantly up to the launch. I don't think back
> > then I would have imagined that 2.0 was launched without a big build
> > up and launch event.
>
> I'm surprised there is a 2.0 at all.
>
> --
> Cédric

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[The Java Posse] Does experience with other technologies make you less employable as a Java developer?

[Carl Jokl]

I am perhaps reactive after feeling a little spooked by a recruitment
experience. A company dealing in Java technology chose not to consider
me further. The feedback was that my C.V. (resume) was strong but they
did not want to consider me because I had worked with .Net as well as
Java.

I am left feeling worried as I hoped to keep skills in both Java
and .Net up to a good standard in hopes that I would have more career
options. I thought I should therefore be suitable to both Java
and .Net roles especially considering I have Sun Java certification
but not as yet any for .Net. I should not judge everything by the
reaction of one company but I am now worried that by trying to
straddle the gap I have unknowingly started to burn my bridges into
Java development.

As many here work for Java companies and might be involved in
recruitment I wondered about your thoughts. Would you or your company
dismiss candidate who had done both Java and .Net in favour of people
who have only worked with Java related technologies?

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[The Java Posse] Re: JavaFX 2 officially released?

[Carl Jokl]

JavaFX was certainly hyped plenty under Sun and I remember the 1.0
launch with lots of build up including the Aint Your Dad's Java
podcast mentioning it incessantly up to the launch. I don't think back
then I would have imagined that 2.0 was launched without a big build
up and launch event.

On Oct 4, 5:28 pm, Cédric Beust ♔  wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 2:52 AM, Carl Jokl  wrote:
> > So we have a fairly dry launch video, no fanfare for the launch and
> > absolutely no demos provided. What an underwhelming launch for
> > something that has been anticipated for so long.
>
> Are you seriously complaining that JavaFX is not being hyped enough? :-)
>
> --
> Cédric

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[The Java Posse] Re: JavaFX 2 officially released?

[Carl Jokl]

So we have a fairly dry launch video, no fanfare for the launch and
absolutely no demos provided. What an underwhelming launch for
something that has been anticipated for so long. Granted the Java 7
launch seemed equally quiet and uneventful.

On Oct 4, 9:18 am, Jan Goyvaerts  wrote:
> I might be wrong, but didn't they recently do native Linux graphics stuff ?
> A pipeline of some sorts... So why no Linux support after all ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:15, Russel Winder  wrote:
> > On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 00:11 +0100, Kevin Wright wrote:
> > > And an OSX version too!
>
> > Which is an improvement on being Windows only.
>
> > > Shame about Linux support taking another year though, I guess
> > > Oracle must already know how much us developer types secretly really do
> > love
> > > the clunky Windows command line...
>
> > I think I'd go without the sarcasm style of criticism and just say:  for
> > a company trying to push Linux as a platform, Oracle sure do make
> > themselves look like a Windows based company.
>
> > I know Windows and OS X make up 90+% (ish) of all workstation and laptop
> > users, but I bet this is not true for developers.  And surely it is the
> > developers who are using JavaFX, not the end users.  Thus it is the
> > spread of OS use by developers that matters and I bet Linux represents a
> > significant market share in that audience.
>
> > --
> > Russel.
>
> > === 
> > ==
> > Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip:
> > sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net
> > 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: rus...@russel.org.uk
> > London SW11 1EN, UK   w:www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder

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[The Java Posse] Re: Alliance Google + Intel for Android on Atom

[Carl Jokl]

I wonder whether I am the only one who feels like the old x86 refuses
to die and it is bad enough to be stuck with in on the desktop but now
if Intel has their way I will be using it on my mobile too. I don't
want an x86 powered phone!

On Sep 16, 12:30 pm, Fabrizio Giudici 
wrote:
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/13/us-intel-google-idUSTRE78C5...
>
> --
> Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
> Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
> fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.ithttp://tidalwave.it-http://fabriziogiudici.it

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[The Java Posse] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn

[Carl Jokl]

I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn.

- Carl

Carl Jokl
Researcher at University of Bradford
Wakefield, United Kingdom

Confirm that you know Carl Jokl:
https://www.linkedin.com/e/-ywosys-gsiq6uh2-2p/isd/4185346978/5mTBoRYx/?hs=false&tok=2SMj8lpHMDFQU1

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[The Java Posse] Re: Are there any techie SUPPORTERS of software patents left?

[Carl Jokl]

That might also prove a disincentive to having big companies acquiring
lots of little ones just to get hold of the patents. This might be a
good thing i.e. all patents are invalidated if a company ceases to
exist. This would not preclude a company existing as a subsidiary of
another but at least the company would maintain identity in its own
right.

On Aug 10, 2:23 pm, phil swenson  wrote:
> In the no-transfer scenario, what happens in an acquisition?  The
> patent is just invalidated?
>
> 2011/8/9 Cédric Beust ♔ :
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 9:41 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot 
> > wrote:
>
> >> Non-transferable is even worse. That does absolutely nothing to the patent
> >> trolls but hurts the very rare Joe Inventor quite a bit. You can buy a
> >> company and leave that company intact, injecting whatever lawyer power you
> >> need for that company to start the court cases.
>
> > Do explain. Let's say there is a 3 year deadline and no transfer right. A
> > company or an inventor comes up with an idea and patents it.
> > How does a patent troll take advantage of that patent?
> > --
> > Cédric
>
> > --
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[The Java Posse] Re: Are there any techie SUPPORTERS of software patents left?

[Carl Jokl]

I really should have proof read that. I make more sense when I am less
tired.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Are there any techie SUPPORTERS of software patents left?

[Carl Jokl]

I take your point. I suppose what I was trying to say that having an
idea about a product or technology is simpler than creating an
implementation of that idea or a prototype. The copying aspect though
does tend to have the benefit of looking at what worked well and what
didn't such as .Net copying Java but trying to avoid what didn't work
well (though potentially introducing some other new things that don't
work well). I don't have any figures. I don't know if anyone on here
has access to any. Even for Microsoft copying ideas from Java to
make .Net I still think the development of it would have cost
Microsoft a great deal. The research and development is less costly
due to starting from something existing known concept but the coding
is still being done from scratch and the libraries and APIs are all
different anyway.

I think the principle can vary a lot from what is being copied. For
example if it is an interaction style that others have developed from
a long series of prototype experiment with test users until and
effective technique is found then it would save the copying company
because the effective interaction style was developed by others. Other
kinds of development, in particular behind the scenes code with no UI
and black box libraries might well still involve a similar development
cost each time a separate company has to development (if they don't
know anything about any other company's implementation.

On Aug 8, 3:59 pm, "Vince O'Sullivan"  wrote:
> On Aug 8, 1:39 pm, Carl Jokl  wrote:
>
> > Ideas are cheap, implementations are expensive.
>
> Do you have any figures to back this up?  My intuition says that
> (successful and repeated) innovation is way more expensive than
> implementation and imitation.
>
> > People would not buy Android phones if they didn't offer
> > something that the iPhone didn't even if that is a more competitive
> > price.
>
> Of course they would.  People aren't stupid.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Are there any techie SUPPORTERS of software patents left?

[Carl Jokl]

Ideas are cheap, implementations are expensive.

It may well be that Google copied ideas from the iPhone but it didn't
copy the implementation of those ideas. It still had to pay people to
write software to implement the ideas and functionality. Companies and
competing software copy features all the time and I think that goes on
across industries. If you are competing with a company and that
company offers a feature or service that you do not it is natural for
you to also want to be able to offer it too otherwise you do no remain
competitive. This is usually a two way street. The implementation of
the feature or service still isn't free just because someone else
thought of it first. Putting some kind of blocks in place to say that
no-one can do something because someone else did it first just seems
to get in the way. If Microsoft copied Google's techniques for the
Bing search engine they still have to implement it. If they steal code
then that is a copyright issue not a patent one. What happens if other
engineers independently come up with an invention? They didn't steal
anything in that case it was their own idea, it just happens some also
thought the same. Both Germany and the UK invented a Jet engine
independent of each other and without knowledge of the other. The
copying of and then improving on features and functionality back and
fourth between companies moves industry forward. It keeps companies
having to innovate and come up with more new features to stay
competitive. People would not buy Android phones if they didn't offer
something that the iPhone didn't even if that is a more competitive
price. If Google is able to deliver a product with a similar
specification but a lower price then that is in itself innovation and
part of healthy competition. If a feature is really easy to copy then
it is also probably not that innovative. If it was hard to implement
it should be hard for others to implement too.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Are there any techie SUPPORTERS of software patents left?

[Carl Jokl]

It is not as if they are mutually exclusive principles and I have been
in Academia.

I have had plenty of experience of being treated like a freak for
choosing to believe in something. If you want to talk about reason
then I have some logical reason points. Atheism is an active belief in
the absence of any supreme being existing. Usually this is coupled
with the believe that the world, universe and life are all byproducts
of random chance.

>From a logical standpoint it does not seem reasonable for me to look
at the Universe, the world, the incredibly complex life that exists
within it and dismiss it as just some fluke of accident or chance. I
see order and complexity as implying some kind of intelligence. I
think chaos theory has been abused to state that given infinite time
that anything that is possible to happen will eventually happen.
However I might question whether it is possible for such order to be
created at all by fluke of chance. If I consider how I would expect
the Universe to look if it was devoid of any intelligence or any
controlling influence then I would expect to see chaotic matter and
randomly moving energy. If out of that some structure were to be
randomly created I would logically expect that it would be like
creating a snowflake in a furnace and that sooner or later the
overriding chaotic nature of the Universe would destroy any fleeting
order that was created within it. What I observe in our Universe and
our world in particular is a highly complex structure which adapts and
seems to increase in sophistication as time goes on. This implies to
me some kind of intelligent design.

Getting from that foundation to believing in something like the Bible
is a big jump. For me it involves a such a complex chain of
dependencies that Maven couldn't hope to cope with however it is
certainly not a matter of believing on something just for the sake of
it or to fit in or blindly without question but there are reasons
behind believing in each principle. I do resent the implication from
others that religious belief is just so irrational that it is evidence
that an individual is flaky and illogical.

My personal ethos has a big impact however of my work and business
ethics and desire to see a computer industry more focused on moving
the world forward than squabbling over rich people trying to get
richer or maintain their wealth for which Software Patents have proved
invaluable in that agenda.

On Aug 8, 11:59 am, Casper Bang  wrote:
> > It's easy to forget how sensitive religious people are when you're not
> > around them.  Most people I choose to talk to are atheists (that's not
> > actually how I choose, at least not consciously), but all my wife's
> > family are Catholics; before I was around them I'd have said something
> > like that without worrying too much.
>
> Now I'm reminded of Sheldon Cooper in the Big Bang Theory. Not too
> surprising though that people in academia would favor causality and
> reason over crucifix and bible.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Are there any techie SUPPORTERS of software patents left?

[Carl Jokl]

I do wonder considering that some have said that the US is the only
place that has Software Patents? Is that true? If that is the case
then if they are so important why don't other countries also have
them.

I think I take the stance of looking at what the whole system is
supposed to be achieving and what it is actually achieving. It was
supposed to promote innovation. It seems to be doing the opposite.

What I see is a bunch of big evil corporations trying to muscle out
anyone from competing with them. Patents are supposed to protect
things that those companies invented but so many of the patents now
are not things that those companies invented but patents stockpiled
through acquisitions. It feels like the big players want to have the
market so stitched up that no-one can do anything without infringing
someones patent.

If Apple is able to successfully use patents to drive Android out of
existence then how is that for encouraging innovation and competition?
I am afraid of a mobile space that looks like the Desktop space i.e.
iPhone has the lions share and everything else is pushed out to
insignificance. Some of the big players will argue that they have a
natural monopoly because they do things better than anyone else. It
may be more true that it is because they can do what others cannot do.
They have the resources and patents that let them do what others
cannot do but the patents hold off others trying to compete so they
just solidify their monopoly. This is hardly good for the industry. It
might happen anyway with or without patents. The Supermarkets for
example seem to have masses of power by virtue of how much money they
have and nothing to do with patenting anything. As time goes on we
seem to have fewer and bigger chains of them. The smaller ones die off
and get absorbed by the bigger ones. The Computer industry seems to be
going the same way and the recession accelerated it.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Are there any techie SUPPORTERS of software patents left?

[Carl Jokl]

Great to see how attacking software patents turns to a slur on
religion.

I thought this group was comprised of technologists and other 'so
called' professionals
who would be expected to understand how offensive that kind of remark
could be to many people. I don't know about whether my taking
exception to it checked or unchecked.

On Aug 8, 1:59 am, mP  wrote:
> I wonder if religious people support patents more than non religious,
> primarily because patents are a weapon of the elite to further their
> own interests rather like the Bible and other so called holy books.
>
> On Aug 8, 4:47 am, Ricky Clarkson  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Only Cedric Beust that I know of.
>
> > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 2:40 PM, phil swenson  wrote:
> > >http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2011/08/time-to-really-deal-with-the-...
>
> > > --
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Re: [The Java Posse] Query to Java status on "OS X Lion" (10.7)

[Carl Jokl]

I think my remarks might benefit with some qualification. I think the client 
popularity should be looked at in relative terms. Java was never a big 
player in hardcore or Triple A title games even back when Java was all the 
buzz. The fact that the developers of Mincraft and Spiral Knights have 
developed games recently and made a conscious choice to use Java, I think at 
least is quite something. Obviously these organisations did not think that 
Java client was dead or not worth bothering.

What about the end result? Spiral Knights is graphically really beautiful. 
It is fast and pretty stable. It is a far cry from a butt ugly swing app. If 
I didn't know it was written in Java there is nothing about it that would 
make me think it wasn't some kind of native or slick flash app.

In some respects this is a bigger deal for showing what Java can do in the 
right hands that some of the JavaFX demos which while impressive were 
frequently quite flaky.

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Re: [The Java Posse] Query to Java status on "OS X Lion" (10.7)

[Carl Jokl]

Minecraft?Spiral Knights

It seems almost strange that just as it seems like client Java has been 
dying the death, two highly popular games come out based on it.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Joe (and all), your thoughts on the Apple Announcements

[Carl Jokl]

I have seen the keynote now and don't really have anything to
criticise. I do wonder about the Optical Media for the O/S. If there
is a need for a clean reinstall I would expect it would still be
needed for that. I might assume then that new Mac's with Lion will
include it on a restore disc but no such disc will be able to be
bought separately. I have a feeling that with the new announcements
Apple's growth is going to continue marching on.

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[The Java Posse] Re: IBM's Erich Gamma joins Microsoft

[Carl Jokl]

Have we moved on to criticising the UK? Can I join in? Where do I
begin?

On Jun 8, 8:19 am, Kirk  wrote:
> ACCU  awesome group
>
> On Jun 8, 2011, at 9:05 AM, Russel Winder wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 2011-06-07 at 18:10 -0300, Ricky Clarkson wrote:
> > [ . . . ]
> >> As a tech lead/manager I really really tried to do that in the UK, and
> >> the guy still wrote the same broken code over and over, still
> >> committed rarely more than once a week, breaking the build as he
> >> walked out of the door.
>
> > Your experience of one person doesn't give you licence to damn the
> > entirety of the UK software development activity.  You should look at
> > the membership of ACCU.  Enough high quality programmers there to give
> > total lie to the implication above -- even though quite a lot of them
> > live in California, New Zealand, Australia, . . ., most are UK based.
>
> > [ . . . ]
>
> >> The receiving side says that generally, the boring work goes offshore.
>
> > I think the term "offshore" is now a complete misnomer and should be
> > dropped.  "outsourced" still has relevance.  For a UK company there is
> > no need to look only to traditional cheap labour locations such as India
> > and China.  There is a plethora of people in the UK willing to do
> > teleworking contracts.  Moreover places like India and China have their
> > own companies doing their own stuff rather than just stuff from the UK.
> > Perhaps they should "outsource" development to the UK now that UK is a
> > medium salary place.
>
> > (Though it doesn't stop USA and UK companies thinking UK is a high
> > cost / high price place.  Rip-off Britain is a verb as well as an
> > adjective.)
>
> > [ . . . ]
> >> I think if you're not at least watching their commits, you're setting
> >> yourself up for a fall.  But then I think that about managing people
> >> who work locally to you too.
>
> > Isn't this about how you "outsource" -- i.e. it is much higher level
> > than watching the programmers.  The problem is that managers think they
> > can use the same project structures and team processes but just have the
> > people work somewhere else where labour is cheap.  So instead of
> > treating this as letting a contract for a software development, it is
> > being treated as a teleworking activity but without putting all the
> > teleworking infrastructure into place first.  To be honest most
> > "outsourcing" is done by company accountants based on balance sheets
> > with no thought at all to the actual social and structural mechanics of
> > how to actually make it work.
>
> > [ . . . ]
> >> I saw competence and enthusiasm in the UK, but rarely both together,
> >> at least if you restrict it to programmers.  Too many who are in it
> >> for the money and don't actually like programming.
>
> > OK, there is no other word for it, this is just total bollocks and you
> > know it.  You can find incompetent programmers everywhere, USA, UK,
> > India, etc.  You can find people with one or the the other of the
> > properties you mention.  You can also find brilliant programmers
> > everywhere.  I suspect your experience is flavoured by using bad
> > agencies or not actually reading CVs, or failing to know how to find the
> > really good programmers in the UK.  For example 400 of them meet every
> > year in Oxford in April.  It's called the ACCU conference and I would
> > back them as far better programmers than nigh on everyone on this
> > list.  
>
> > [ . . . ]
> > --
> > Russel.
> > === 
> > ==
> > Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: 
> > sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net
> > 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: rus...@russel.org.uk
> > London SW11 1EN, UK   w:www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder

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[The Java Posse] Re: Vs: What is your favorite programming font?

[Carl Jokl]

I can picture "Comic Sans" being a good font for programming Visual
Basic. It just kind of feels like a good font to suit that language.

On May 30, 12:52 am, Mark Derricutt  wrote:
> Envy Code R, followed by Cousine
>
> --
> "Great artists are extremely selfish and arrogant things" — Steven Wilson,
> Porcupine Tree
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 12:05 AM, Roland Tepp  wrote:
> > On Windows, I prefer Consolas
>
> > --
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[The Java Posse] Re: Docs for JavaFX 2.0 have PDFs :-) (Android, nudge, nudge)

[Carl Jokl]

Trying to be more specific about what I like about it. I liked the
fact that it enabled me to create fairly slick and impressive UI
without massive effort. On the other hand beneath the UI was all the
full power of the Java platform.

I know I cannot compare this fairly unless I have used Flash and
Silverlight in anger. I only as of late have an academic copy of Adobe
Creative Suite 5 and so could try out Flash (so far I have never had
the time). I played around with Silverlight somewhat back when I was
working at a .Net company but haven't really touched it since then and
I didn't really use the UI side of it in anger. I did seem to have
similar advantages over Flash that it was backed by a more powerful
programming language / capability however Silverlight was very much
cut down from the full .Net platform and at that time libraries had to
be compiled specifically for Silverlight rather than being able to
leverage any existing code. Also there were lots of constraints on
what could be done in the interests of security such as use of sockets
etc.

On May 31, 6:45 pm, Cédric Beust ♔  wrote:
> On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 10:35 AM, Ricky Clarkson
> wrote:
>
> > I particularly like the event dispatching, it looks like it wouldn't
> > lead to the same mess raw Swing often does.
>
> Can you be more specific on what you like about it?
>
> --
> Cédric

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[The Java Posse] Re: Docs for JavaFX 2.0 have PDFs :-) (Android, nudge, nudge)

[Carl Jokl]

On May 31, 5:39 am, Jonathan Giles  wrote:
> As Steven Herod linked to, here's Richard Bairs (Java Client
> Architect) response (see the last comment):
>
> Cay, I have to agree! Which is why we have not developed a windows
> version in isolation of everything else — or even first!. I develop
> only on a Mac, and have done so for the past 3 years. As many
> developers here work on Mac as work on Windows, and a number are on
> Linux. Gerard Ziemski, who designed the initial version of Glass (our
> windowing layer replacing AWT) works only on a Mac and writes and
> maintains the Cocoa code. The first platform Glass came up on was a
> Mac, and was subsequently ported on Windows (and differences between
> Mac and Windows were at that time worked through). The guys working on
> the windows version are also the AWT maintainers who for years have
> wanted another go at it to fix the problems of AWT. We’re really very
> well versed in these problems :-) .
>
> As for media, it sounds like there is some documentation which needs
> addressing. We are using gstreamer for the media framework, which as
> I’m sure you are aware is really quite widely adopted and works well
> on multiple platforms.
>
> Now, I’m not prepared to make a statement on timetables or on why the
> windows 32-bit is the only one released at this first beta. But do
> bear in mind, we’re releasing a new beta build every 2 weeks. This
> isn’t a release candidate! It is a snapshot in time which represents a
> certain level of development and a certain level of testing.
>
> -- Jonathan
>
> On May 31, 1:36 pm, Cédric Beust ♔  wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Steven Herod wrote:
>
> > > This may also help out on the cross platform question:
> > >http://fxexperience.com/2011/05/is-javafx-2-0-cross-platform/
>
> > Yes, in the sense that the answer is "Not at the moment and we can't tell
> > you when".
>
> > Obviously, we can't know if Oracle is being truthful when they say that
> > JavaFX will be cross platform at some undetermined time in the future, but
> > we can definitely draw some conclusions from the fact that they chose to
> > release a Windows-only version first: this is the clear sign that the
> > development process of JavaFX is not multi platform.
>
> > Which should be a concern to everyone with an interest in that field and
> > quite reminiscent of the disaster that happened with AWT fifteen years ago.
>
> > Myself, I just can't understand why there's still even a tiny amount of
> > people who are interested in JavaFX after Sun proved for fifteen years that
> > they just weren't very good at this UI framework stuff.
>
> > --
> > Cédric

I am not sure what to think. All I know is that for all that I could
see bugs and issues with JavaFX, I liked it. If that is wrong of me to
feel that way or doesn't fit in with HTML5 being the one true way then
so be it. I know plugging technology is under attack particularly from
Apple.

I have lost some enthusiasm due to the bumpy ride the technology as
had lots of attacks even from Java loyalist people. I am not sure if
it is going to take off but I like it anyway.

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[The Java Posse] Re: random crap section / fart sounds

[Carl Jokl]

Maybe the random crap section could be called something different like
the miscellaneous section or something?
On May 22, 3:13 pm, Ed G  wrote:
> +1, it's tacky without being very irreverent. if I want to hear fart
> sounds I'm sure my elementary school boys can conjure some up.
>
> On May 22, 2:14 am, Casper Bang  wrote:
>
>
>
> > +1. Fart sounds might be funny... when you are 12!
>
> > On May 22, 2:30 am, Michael Easter  wrote:
>
> > > Big +1 with Tor re: NOT a fan of the farting sounds for Random Crap
> > > (or in general).
>
> > > I could comment on it from my own sense of humour/taste, but the main
> > > reason is that the schtick reduces my willingness to recommend the
> > > podcast to others.
>
> > > Previously, I would rave about Java Posse to colleagues. Now, I stay
> > > quiet because I don't want to endorse a podcast and have it reflect
> > > poorly on me by association.
>
> > > (I'm no prude, and have been rightfully accused of pulling some
> > > juvenile stunts on my blog. But fart sounds truly lower the bar, even
> > > beyond _my_ comfort zone)
>
> > > Michael Easter

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[The Java Posse] Re: random crap section / fart sounds

[Carl Jokl]

+1 It is all rather immature.

However I do recognise that it is your podcast and you can do whatever
you want with it.
I would hate for the podcast to turn into a stuffy über corporate
broadcast which was totally stale and shades of calming beige and
heavily focused of leveraging synergies and leveraging technology to
improve profitability while lowering the total cost of ownership for
good measure. Even Sun's "This aint your dad's Java" podcast was very
liberal for an official corporate podcast.

On May 22, 7:14 am, Casper Bang  wrote:
> +1. Fart sounds might be funny... when you are 12!
>
> On May 22, 2:30 am, Michael Easter  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Big +1 with Tor re: NOT a fan of the farting sounds for Random Crap
> > (or in general).
>
> > I could comment on it from my own sense of humour/taste, but the main
> > reason is that the schtick reduces my willingness to recommend the
> > podcast to others.
>
> > Previously, I would rave about Java Posse to colleagues. Now, I stay
> > quiet because I don't want to endorse a podcast and have it reflect
> > poorly on me by association.
>
> > (I'm no prude, and have been rightfully accused of pulling some
> > juvenile stunts on my blog. But fart sounds truly lower the bar, even
> > beyond _my_ comfort zone)
>
> > Michael Easter

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[The Java Posse] Re: Is Apple is winning the PC war?

[Carl Jokl]

I think as regards being able to pursue something that you love doing,
an unfortunate reality is that many get ahead because they have the
right connections and not because they are the most talented. I have
also seen time and again the most arrogant employees who make a fuss
about how great they are (event though they aren't that great) end up
being promoted while the actually very talented employee works away in
the background not getting noticed.

I am rather jaded and so I am happy to believe that a large numbers of
people are just mindless sheep. I am however slowly loosing faith in
society by being stuck in an area with large numbers of poorly
educated people.

At least there are bright people on the forums even if I don't always
agree with them.

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[The Java Posse] Re: 2525 song - not just from Cleopatra 2525.

[Carl Jokl]

..or anything by the cheeky girls

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[The Java Posse] Re: 2525 song - not just from Cleopatra 2525.

[Carl Jokl]

I have heard it before and I kind of like it but I guess I am weird
that way.

Certainly I would take it any day over the junk the local vagrants are
blasting out of their tinny mobile phone speakers on the bus...but
that is another story...

On May 12, 11:04 am, Chris Adamson  wrote:
> Humorist Dave Barry singled it out in his book, "Dave Barry's Book of
> Bad Songs", in which he built on several of his newspaper columns
> about bad songs with a poll of his readership to find the worst song
> of all time (it's "MacArthur Park", BTW).  He spends about a page and
> a half on "In The Year 2525", noting that while it didn't get that
> many votes from his readers overall, it "attracted the most intense
> hatred per voter."  He also prints a letter from a reader who plays in
> a bad song cover band, and who reports that they've never been able to
> make it all the way through "In The Year 2525", because it's just that
> awful.
>
> Is it really that bad?  You be the 
> judge:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izQB2-Kmiic
>
> On May 11, 1:09 pm, Peter  wrote:
>
>
>
> > When I heard Dick singing the 2525 song in the most recent episode, I
> > thought sure he was wrong in attributing it to a folk song.  To me, it
> > was the theme song to a cheesy Sci Fi show called "Cleopatra 2525".
> > Imagine my surprise when I looked it up on wikipedia and found it was
> > a real song, and was referenced in various pop culture like Futurama.
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Year_2525

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