Re: JESS: Rule Translators?
Please note that I never intended to say that RIF core is RuleML (still can't see where that could be mixed up). My apologies if I did. For the translation between RIF core and both production systems: I thought I'd start there, so far so good. Admittedly the rules I experimented with could be more complex, hence the brackets around supported. I'll see what the next steps will be when I get enough data (including feedback). All the best, Pierre On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 15:30:35 +0200, Wolfgang Laun wolfgang.l...@gmail.com wrote: It's a mess. RIF Core isn't RuleML; neither supports the full range of either Drools or (I suspect) Jess. Jess and Drools are Production Systems; so you also have to come to grips with RHS coding as well. Which means, in any case, that any DSL restricts RHS coding to the subset defined in the DSL. (I concur, that this might be a good thing.) Also, note that W3C also have completed RIF-PRD, which is intended to bridge between various Productions Systems. We'll see. Drools provides a DSL implementation system that uses regex parsing (for DSL rules) to create a context-free language expression, which is also bound to have limitations. The same would be true for such a parser to translate into Jess. Having said all that, it might be worth the manageable effort to implement a generic DLS system for implementing a DSL with Jess/CLP as its target system. If you strive for anything close to natural language, you will have to make amends. But I also concur with the notion that promising a DSL is a nice marketing spiel for RBS vendors, but that the famous domain experts rarely cotton to writing the rules all by themselves. Part of which may, of course, be due to the fact that error diagnostics in such a generic system are bound to be somewhat less than user friendly. -W On 29 August 2010 10:25, p...@agh.edu.pl wrote: Hi, I'm currently working on a common interface for multi-rule-engine distributed systems. Part of my work has so far been to develop XSLTs to allow RIF core (W3C spec) translations to and from JessML. DroolsML is also supported so it's possible to exchange rules between Jess and Drools through RIF core. In addition to that, I've got a PhD student currently working on a user friendly UI for RIF core in Flex (Adobe stuff). I'm hoping we get to present a prototype of this at the RuleML challenge this December. I'm also hoping I'll be able to share the XSLTs with the community at some point after that. It's August and everybody is on holidays here (including me) hence why I can't give firm release dates :) All the best, Pierre On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:04:17 +0200, Ernest Friedman-Hill ejfr...@sandia.gov wrote: Be careful to distinguish RuleML, which is a proposed standard rule language, from JessML, which is an XML-based rule format natively supported by Jess. The point of JessML, really, is that it's easier to manipulate XML than the Lisp-like Jess rule language in code, so if you want to write some kind of translator, GUI, or other tool for manipulating Jess code, using JessML will make it much easier to do. So in any case, JessML exists so that's it's very simple for you to create your own special-purpose front ends like what you describe. On Aug 24, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Donald Winston wrote: What's the possibility of some sort of rule translator for Jess. One of the reasons for using a rule engine in a typical business app is to separate the business rules from the rest of the application so non programmers can work with the rules. (Although in my experience we end up with programmers developing the rules anyway) I think it's going to be difficult to convince my clients to let me use Jess if this is a priority for them. I believe most will be put off by the Lisp language that Jess uses. Even if software engineers will be writing the rules from some sort of documentation they might not like it. I know there's a RuleML effort. But to be really good the translation would have to go both from ML - Lisp and Lisp - ML. In addition the rules developer would not be editing the ML directly but an english like language to express the rules. This would probably put a straight jacket on how Jess is used in these kinds of apps(which may be a good thing). (I've decided I like Jess especially because these days Blaze Advisor costs six figures! Drools is a frigging elephant) I'm going to use it for a prototype app I've had in mind. To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users y...@address.com' in the BODY of a message to majord...@sandia.gov, NOT to the list (use your own address!) List problems? Notify owner-jess-us...@sandia.gov . -
Re: JESS: Rule Translators?
On 30/08/2010, p...@agh.edu.pl p...@agh.edu.pl wrote: Please note that I never intended to say that RIF core is RuleML (still can't see where that could be mixed up). My apologies if I did. My remark was not directed at anything specifically, its a general statement. Sorry! -W For the translation between RIF core and both production systems: I thought I'd start there, so far so good. Admittedly the rules I experimented with could be more complex, hence the brackets around supported. I'll see what the next steps will be when I get enough data (including feedback). All the best, Pierre To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users y...@address.com' in the BODY of a message to majord...@sandia.gov, NOT to the list (use your own address!) List problems? Notify owner-jess-us...@sandia.gov.
RE: JESS: Rule Translators?
Donald, If your requirement is to involve non-programmers and to capture their expertise in a way that is intuitive for them, you may want to look at the knowledge engine offered by Discovery Machine (www.discoverymachine.com) whose products are targeted at exactly this use case. They offer a graphical IDE for modeling the process that an expert/non-programmer uses to solve problems. It is process-oriented, not rule-oriented, but there could be a translation into a set of Jess rules or Jess rules could be fired by or trigger the process models. The engine is 100% Java and the output can be serialized into a standalone mode or output as XML. Caveat: I am a former employee but I do not receive any financial gain from the use of their product. You can contact the CTO Todd Griffith at tgriff...@quova.com. Regards, Brian -Original Message- From: owner-jess-us...@sandia.gov [mailto:owner-jess-us...@sandia.gov] On Behalf Of Donald Winston Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:43 AM To: Jess-users Subject: JESS: Rule Translators? What's the possibility of some sort of rule translator for Jess. One of the reasons for using a rule engine in a typical business app is to separate the business rules from the rest of the application so non programmers can work with the rules. (Although in my experience we end up with programmers developing the rules anyway) I think it's going to be difficult to convince my clients to let me use Jess if this is a priority for them. I believe most will be put off by the Lisp language that Jess uses. Even if software engineers will be writing the rules from some sort of documentation they might not like it. I know there's a RuleML effort. But to be really good the translation would have to go both from ML - Lisp and Lisp - ML. In addition the rules developer would not be editing the ML directly but an english like language to express the rules. This would probably put a straight jacket on how Jess is used in these kinds of apps(which may be a good thing). (I've decided I like Jess especially because these days Blaze Advisor costs six figures! Drools is a frigging elephant) I'm going to use it for a prototype app I've had in mind. To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users y...@address.com' in the BODY of a message to majord...@sandia.gov, NOT to the list (use your own address!) List problems? Notify owner-jess-us...@sandia.gov. To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users y...@address.com' in the BODY of a message to majord...@sandia.gov, NOT to the list (use your own address!) List problems? Notify owner-jess-us...@sandia.gov.
Re: JESS: Rule Translators?
Hi, I'm currently working on a common interface for multi-rule-engine distributed systems. Part of my work has so far been to develop XSLTs to allow RIF core (W3C spec) translations to and from JessML. DroolsML is also supported so it's possible to exchange rules between Jess and Drools through RIF core. In addition to that, I've got a PhD student currently working on a user friendly UI for RIF core in Flex (Adobe stuff). I'm hoping we get to present a prototype of this at the RuleML challenge this December. I'm also hoping I'll be able to share the XSLTs with the community at some point after that. It's August and everybody is on holidays here (including me) hence why I can't give firm release dates :) All the best, Pierre On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:04:17 +0200, Ernest Friedman-Hill ejfr...@sandia.gov wrote: Be careful to distinguish RuleML, which is a proposed standard rule language, from JessML, which is an XML-based rule format natively supported by Jess. The point of JessML, really, is that it's easier to manipulate XML than the Lisp-like Jess rule language in code, so if you want to write some kind of translator, GUI, or other tool for manipulating Jess code, using JessML will make it much easier to do. So in any case, JessML exists so that's it's very simple for you to create your own special-purpose front ends like what you describe. On Aug 24, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Donald Winston wrote: What's the possibility of some sort of rule translator for Jess. One of the reasons for using a rule engine in a typical business app is to separate the business rules from the rest of the application so non programmers can work with the rules. (Although in my experience we end up with programmers developing the rules anyway) I think it's going to be difficult to convince my clients to let me use Jess if this is a priority for them. I believe most will be put off by the Lisp language that Jess uses. Even if software engineers will be writing the rules from some sort of documentation they might not like it. I know there's a RuleML effort. But to be really good the translation would have to go both from ML - Lisp and Lisp - ML. In addition the rules developer would not be editing the ML directly but an english like language to express the rules. This would probably put a straight jacket on how Jess is used in these kinds of apps(which may be a good thing). (I've decided I like Jess especially because these days Blaze Advisor costs six figures! Drools is a frigging elephant) I'm going to use it for a prototype app I've had in mind. To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users y...@address.com' in the BODY of a message to majord...@sandia.gov, NOT to the list (use your own address!) List problems? Notify owner-jess-us...@sandia.gov . - Ernest Friedman-Hill Informatics Decision Sciences Phone: (925) 294-2154 Sandia National Labs PO Box 969, MS 9012ejfr...@sandia.gov Livermore, CA 94550 http://www.jessrules.com To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users y...@address.com' in the BODY of a message to majord...@sandia.gov, NOT to the list (use your own address!) List problems? Notify owner-jess-us...@sandia.gov. To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users y...@address.com' in the BODY of a message to majord...@sandia.gov, NOT to the list (use your own address!) List problems? Notify owner-jess-us...@sandia.gov.
JESS: Rule Translators?
What's the possibility of some sort of rule translator for Jess. One of the reasons for using a rule engine in a typical business app is to separate the business rules from the rest of the application so non programmers can work with the rules. (Although in my experience we end up with programmers developing the rules anyway) I think it's going to be difficult to convince my clients to let me use Jess if this is a priority for them. I believe most will be put off by the Lisp language that Jess uses. Even if software engineers will be writing the rules from some sort of documentation they might not like it. I know there's a RuleML effort. But to be really good the translation would have to go both from ML - Lisp and Lisp - ML. In addition the rules developer would not be editing the ML directly but an english like language to express the rules. This would probably put a straight jacket on how Jess is used in these kinds of apps(which may be a good thing). (I've decided I like Jess especially because these days Blaze Advisor costs six figures! Drools is a frigging elephant) I'm going to use it for a prototype app I've had in mind. To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users y...@address.com' in the BODY of a message to majord...@sandia.gov, NOT to the list (use your own address!) List problems? Notify owner-jess-us...@sandia.gov.
Re: JESS: Rule Translators?
Be careful to distinguish RuleML, which is a proposed standard rule language, from JessML, which is an XML-based rule format natively supported by Jess. The point of JessML, really, is that it's easier to manipulate XML than the Lisp-like Jess rule language in code, so if you want to write some kind of translator, GUI, or other tool for manipulating Jess code, using JessML will make it much easier to do. So in any case, JessML exists so that's it's very simple for you to create your own special-purpose front ends like what you describe. On Aug 24, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Donald Winston wrote: What's the possibility of some sort of rule translator for Jess. One of the reasons for using a rule engine in a typical business app is to separate the business rules from the rest of the application so non programmers can work with the rules. (Although in my experience we end up with programmers developing the rules anyway) I think it's going to be difficult to convince my clients to let me use Jess if this is a priority for them. I believe most will be put off by the Lisp language that Jess uses. Even if software engineers will be writing the rules from some sort of documentation they might not like it. I know there's a RuleML effort. But to be really good the translation would have to go both from ML - Lisp and Lisp - ML. In addition the rules developer would not be editing the ML directly but an english like language to express the rules. This would probably put a straight jacket on how Jess is used in these kinds of apps(which may be a good thing). (I've decided I like Jess especially because these days Blaze Advisor costs six figures! Drools is a frigging elephant) I'm going to use it for a prototype app I've had in mind. To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users y...@address.com' in the BODY of a message to majord...@sandia.gov, NOT to the list (use your own address!) List problems? Notify owner-jess-us...@sandia.gov . - Ernest Friedman-Hill Informatics Decision Sciences Phone: (925) 294-2154 Sandia National Labs PO Box 969, MS 9012ejfr...@sandia.gov Livermore, CA 94550 http://www.jessrules.com To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users y...@address.com' in the BODY of a message to majord...@sandia.gov, NOT to the list (use your own address!) List problems? Notify owner-jess-us...@sandia.gov.
