Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

[Richard Krähenbühl]

Dear Klaus,

I just felt like translating an excerpt from Friedrich Georg Jüngers 
Perfektion der Technik and use this small space here just to show how right 
this man was!
One has to bear in mind that this book has been written some 60 years ago. How 
precise the analysis there, how clear all the foresight of things to come. In 
those times words like Nachhaltigkeit were hardly used, they were the 
unbridled times -  the years of the Wirtschaftswunder.

Here goes my attempt at a translation on the subject of all the side effects of 
our Machine Age from Georg Friedrich's book:

The questionalbleness of everything machine-like, this dubiousness which 
begins where technology ends, cannot be seen and recognized by the outer 
appearance of mechanical devices. This questionableness is being recognized by 
the one who can see the feedbacks those apparatusses have on the general 
organization of human labour. Fresh insights are to be gained here, and we 
shall have to pay a hight price for them.

Past teachings on economy, depending on the English School, dealing with the 
fact of a multiplying machinery had one main question to solve: The question 
was about how sufficient credit acquisition for this machinery would be 
possible. The controversy surrounding this subject is of little interest 
nowadays, because technology is in possession of every power for any credits 
and loans needed. The changes that have been effectuated in the monetary field 
and which still are being executed teach us about how this is performed. Here, 
as well as in other fields we are shown that theory is no more able to follow 
the rapid events. The events just escape. One proof are the errant predictions 
of the economists on World War One. Some declared such a war an impossibility 
rightaway, some said if it should happen at all, it would be of very short 
duration. The proverb about the war nourishing and feeding the war had 
apparently been completely forgotten.
Marx knew nothing about machinery. He had no insight. Because if he had, he 
could not have assigned machinery the place as a tool and accessory in a world 
governed by economic laws. Machinery is not ruled by them at all. He could not 
have known this, because no one knew in his times. Nobody knew then about the 
impossibility of any economic dealing with machinery. No one knew that the 
economy of the machine is an illusion. This sort of economy can only persist 
by a perennial expansion of machinery. It can only persist by ruthless and 
ruinous exploitation. No one knew that no economic laws can apply here. No one 
knew that on the long run not even a balance of accounts could be accomplished. 
The economical man and accountant already had this in mind when he resorted to 
double entry bookkeeping.
The entire foundation of economic laws which Karl Marx interpreted into the 
coming industrial age already began to collapse the moment he drew the concept 
of his theories.

The planet in the age of exploration, being subjected to an ever intensifying 
exploitation is simply not enough to placate for the insistent pull of 
exploitation. The increase of exploitable fields and spaces, the increase of 
every new substratum for exploitation just hides what is obvious for any 
thinking person.
Dass die Vernutzung allen Nutzen überwiegt - That overutilization exceeds all 
utilization and that man though all his autmated technology is being more and 
more drawn into a tight corner..
..etcetc...

Perhaps we may also take into account all the exchange Georg Friedrich had with 
his brother Ernst. E.J. would probably very much have agreed to all that.
Kind regards
Richard
  - Original Message - 
  From: klaus gauger 
  To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
  Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 12:39 AM
  Subject: Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie


Dear Richard,


yes, you are right, thinking about the ecological problems our industry 
and tecnology is creating on a world-wide level (climate change, the coming end 
of the oil-age, destruction of our environment like the big amazonian forest in 
Brasil,  etc.) a book like Die Perfektion der Technik seems to be 
prophetical. Friedrich Georg Jünger says it clearly: Nicht der Anfang, sondern 
das Ende trägt die Last. Technology and modern industry might have been a 
promise in the eighteenth and nineteenth century, but now we are feeling what 
costs and risks are connected with the industrialization and technologization 
of our world. I hope Friedrich Georg Jünger is too pessimistic and we can solve 
our problems, though sometimes - when I see how the politicians worldwide have 
been treating this eminent problem in the last twenty years-  I fear that 
Friedrich Georg Jünger in the end will be right and we soon will have a global 
mess created by the uncontrolable sideeffects of industrialization and 
technologization.


Yours,


Klaus



--- Richard Krähenbühl ri...@t-online.de schrieb

Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

[klaus gauger]

Dear Richard,
 
 
 
yes, this book of Friedrich Georg Jünger is really brilliant and prophetic. 
Ernst Jüngers Der Arbeiter and Friedrich Georg Jüngers Die Perfektion are 
both two diferent sides of the same coin: Both books are about the coming age 
of total technologisation, Ernst Jünger was in the early thirties a fascist and 
a sort of futurist when he wrote Der Arbeiter, that´s why his was 
enthusiastic about the coming age of total tecnologisation. Friedrich Georg 
Jünger had in mind the desastrous World War II with his millions of killed 
people and the victims of the concentration-camps in Germany when he wrote Die 
Perfektion der Technik, that´s why he is sarcastic and sceptic about the whole 
process of total technologisation. Martin Heidegger, the great philosopher from 
Freiburg, was mainly influenced by the two Jünger-brothers and her books when 
he developed his own philosophy and analysis of the age of total 
technification. 
 
 
Yours,
 
Klaus
 


--- Richard Krähenbühl ri...@t-online.de schrieb am So, 8.2.2009:

Von: Richard Krähenbühl ri...@t-online.de
Betreff: Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
An: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Datum: Sonntag, 8. Februar 2009, 14:29






 
Dear Klaus,
 
I just felt like translating an excerpt from Friedrich Georg Jüngers 
Perfektion der Technik and use this small space here just to show how right 
this man was!
One has to bear in mind that this book has been written some 60 years ago. How 
precise the analysis there, how clear all the foresight of things to come. In 
those times words like Nachhaltigkeit were hardly used, they were the 
unbridled times -  the years of the Wirtschaftswunder .
 
Here goes my attempt at a translation on the subject of all the side effects of 
our Machine Age from Georg Friedrich's book:
 
The questionalbleness of everything machine-like, this dubiousness which 
begins where technology ends, cannot be seen and recognized by the outer 
appearance of mechanical devices. This questionableness is being recognized by 
the one who can see the feedbacks those apparatusses have on the general 
organization of human labour. Fresh insights are to be gained here, and we 
shall have to pay a hight price for them.
 
Past teachings on economy, depending on the English School, dealing with the 
fact of a multiplying machinery had one main question to solve: The question 
was about how sufficient credit acquisition for this machinery would be 
possible. The controversy surrounding this subject is of little interest 
nowadays, because technology is in possession of every power for any credits 
and loans needed. The changes that have been effectuated in the monetary field 
and which still are being executed teach us about how this is performed. Here, 
as well as in other fields we are shown that theory is no more able to follow 
the rapid events. The events just escape. One proof are the errant predictions 
of the economists on World War One. Some declared such a war an impossibility 
rightaway, some said if it should happen at all, it would be of very short 
duration. The proverb about the war nourishing and feeding the war had 
apparently been completely forgotten.
Marx knew nothing about machinery. He had no insight. Because if he had, he 
could not have assigned machinery the place as a tool and accessory in a world 
governed by economic laws. Machinery is not ruled by them at all. He could not 
have known this, because no one knew in his times. Nobody knew then about the 
impossibility of any economic dealing with machinery. No one knew that the 
economy of the machine is an illusion. This sort of economy can only persist 
by a perennial expansion of machinery. It can only persist by ruthless and 
ruinous exploitation. No one knew that no economic laws can apply here. No one 
knew that on the long run not even a balance of accounts could be accomplished. 
The economical man and accountant already had this in mind when he resorted to 
double entry bookkeeping.
The entire foundation of economic laws which Karl Marx interpreted into the 
coming industrial age already began to collapse the moment he drew the concept 
of his theories.
 
The planet in the age of exploration, being subjected to an ever intensifying 
exploitation is simply not enough to placate for the insistent pull of 
exploitation. The increase of exploitable fields and spaces, the increase of 
every new substratum for exploitation just hides what is obvious for any 
thinking person.
Dass die Vernutzung allen Nutzen überwiegt - That overutilization exceeds all 
utilization and that man though all his autmated technology is being more and 
more drawn into a tight corner..
..etcetc. ..
 
Perhaps we may also take into account all the exchange Georg Friedrich had with 
his brother Ernst. E.J. would probably very much have agreed to all that.
Kind regards
Richard

- Original Message - 
From: klaus gauger 
To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Sent: Saturday, February

AW: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

[Simon Friedrich]

Yes, but the whole Entwicklung couldn't really have been avoided, it is simply 
how the Titanic phase is. And, the lastträgende Ende will unfortunately also 
conform to the Titanic pattern. We could also hope for a salvation through art 
and poetry - as Juenger
says in Aladdin's Problem, ...both us agreed that we would either be
redeemed by the poet or by fire. I am a pessimist and believe our Titans will 
only learn by catastrophe, by humbling. Perhaps it will be both, catastrophe 
will open them to the power of artistic transcendence.  

If you ask me, the only real duties we have are to the enlightenment of 
individuals, including ourselves, for their benefit and for the modest guiding 
influence these few can have on the future developments. But we should be clear 
that the world will mostly go its own way. Not so with the salvation of 
individual souls, to steal a phrase from religion.

Simon





Von: klaus gauger klaus_gau...@yahoo.com
An: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Gesendet: Samstag, den 7. Februar 2009, 01:39:11 Uhr
Betreff: Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

  
Dear Richard,
 
 
yes, you are right, thinking about the ecological problems our industry and 
tecnology is creating on a world-wide level (climate change, the coming end of 
the oil-age, destruction of our environment like the big amazonian forest in 
Brasil,  etc.) a book like Die Perfektion der Technik seems to be 
prophetical. Friedrich Georg Jünger says it clearly: Nicht der Anfang, sondern 
das Ende trägt die Last. Technology and modern industry might have been a 
promise in the eighteenth and nineteenth century, but now we are feeling what 
costs and risks are connected with the industrialization and technologization 
of our world. I hope Friedrich Georg Jünger is too pessimistic and we can solve 
our problems, though sometimes - when I see how the politicians worldwide have 
been treating this eminent problem in the last twenty years-  I fear that 
Friedrich Georg Jünger in the end will be right and we soon will have a global 
mess created by the uncontrolable
 sideeffects of industrialization and technologization.
 
 
Yours,
 
 
Klaus
 


--- Richard Krähenbühl ri...@t-online.de schrieb am Fr, 6.2.2009:

Von: Richard Krähenbühl ri...@t-online.de
Betreff: Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
An: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Datum: Freitag, 6. Februar 2009, 23:17


 
Quite interesting, this world-wide chat about Ernst Jünger.
Lots to be learned from his writings, of course also for politicians.
 
There's been a musical called Evita and  thereafter a pop star called 
Madonna (what a presumptuous name) acted as Evita Péron in the
suceeding movie
Perhaps I should see that movie, because I know next to nothing about the issue.
 
As to E.J.
His writings are a gift. Still more so they would be in our times!. Times of 
general disorientation. People just don't know anymore where's left and right, 
up and down...
In my opinion the Germans lost a chance to give him his due appreciation. He 
still remains a disputed marginal writer, whereas  nobel prices have been 
awarded to  Günter Grass and the likes.
Nothing against GG - but EJ doesn't just dwell on the sufaces and the 
phenomenal. He is so much deeper!
Ernst Jünger as well as Georg Friedrich Jünger (his critical book Die 
Perfektion der Technik would be so  up-to-date and current - isn't it a pity 
it  has fallen into such an oblivion?) 
- well both of the Jünger brothers are such deep thinkers!.
 
If only they were more prominent on today's scene - there would be so many  
more answers to todays problems.
 
But people seem to stick with the ephemeral and superficial.
 
Best regards
Rich
 
- Original Message - 
From: marta giana 
To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

Dear Simon,
 
General Perón didn't have children. I guess you are talking about Eva Perón, 
who was his wife. 
 
Yes , I have a positive opinion on General Perón, someone who leads a deep 
change in Argentina, after World War II, taking distance from both, comunism 
and capitalism, creating with som others (Nasser, Nehru etc) the third 
position.
 
He was in Germany and in Italy before the war. His enemies entitled him as 
fascist, but he never admit it and his governemnt was more populista. I 
don't want to give lessons about peronismo, ¡¡And in English! My God!
 
Our friend EJ  helps us  not to have teaching and trying to convince attitudes.
 
Thanks a lot for the comment about Eümeswil. I'll try to go again to it, 
although I'm reading the last EJ Diary, not so moving as the one in Paris, but 
also interesting.
 
Yours, Marta 


--- El vie 6-feb-09, Simon Friedrich simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de escribió:

De: Simon Friedrich simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de
Asunto: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
Para: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Fecha: viernes, 6 de febrero de 2009, 9:00 am


Dear Marta,

I

AW: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

[klaus gauger]

Dear Simon,
 
 
 
yeah, off course, the titanic phase and the development of modern tecnology and 
industry on a world wide level was unvoidable, once the scientific foundations 
were made in the age of enlighment and the knowledge to produce all this 
artefacts was there. And we can´t hope for any redemption or turn back now, we 
can only hope the effects of this development won´t be desastrous on a world 
wide level.
 
Yours,
 
Klaus
 


--- Simon Friedrich simonfriedr...@yahoo.de schrieb am Sa, 7.2.2009:

Von: Simon Friedrich simonfriedr...@yahoo.de
Betreff: AW: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
An: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Datum: Samstag, 7. Februar 2009, 17:11








Yes, but the whole Entwicklung couldn't really have been avoided, it is simply 
how the Titanic phase is. And, the lastträgende Ende will unfortunately also 
conform to the Titanic pattern. We could also hope for a salvation through art 
and poetry - as Juenger says in Aladdin's Problem, ...both us agreed that we 
would either be redeemed by the poet or by fire. I am a pessimist and believe 
our Titans will only learn by catastrophe, by humbling. Perhaps it will be 
both, catastrophe will open them to the power of artistic transcendence.  

If you ask me, the only real duties we have are to the enlightenment of 
individuals, including ourselves, for their benefit and for the modest guiding 
influence these few can have on the future developments. But we should be clear 
that the world will mostly go its own way. Not so with the salvation of 
individual souls, to steal a phrase from religion.

Simon





Von: klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Gesendet: Samstag, den 7. Februar 2009, 01:39:11 Uhr
Betreff: Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie






Dear Richard,
 
 
yes, you are right, thinking about the ecological problems our industry and 
tecnology is creating on a world-wide level (climate change, the coming end of 
the oil-age, destruction of our environment like the big amazonian forest in 
Brasil,  etc.) a book like Die Perfektion der Technik seems to be 
prophetical. Friedrich Georg Jünger says it clearly: Nicht der Anfang, sondern 
das Ende trägt die Last. Technology and modern industry might have been a 
promise in the eighteenth and nineteenth century, but now we are feeling what 
costs and risks are connected with the industrialization and technologization 
of our world. I hope Friedrich Georg Jünger is too pessimistic and we can solve 
our problems, though sometimes - when I see how the politicians worldwide have 
been treating this eminent problem in the last twenty years-  I fear that 
Friedrich Georg Jünger in the end will be right and we soon will have a global 
mess created by the uncontrolable
 sideeffects of industrialization and technologization.
 
 
Yours,
 
 
Klaus
 


--- Richard Krähenbühl ri...@t-online. de schrieb am Fr, 6.2.2009:

Von: Richard Krähenbühl ri...@t-online. de
Betreff: Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Datum: Freitag, 6. Februar 2009, 23:17




 
Quite interesting, this world-wide chat about Ernst Jünger.
Lots to be learned from his writings, of course also for politicians.
 
There's been a musical called Evita and  thereafter a pop star called 
Madonna (what a presumptuous name) acted as Evita Péron in the
suceeding movie
Perhaps I should see that movie, because I know next to nothing about the issue.
 
As to E.J..
His writings are a gift. Still more so they would be in our times!. Times of 
general disorientation. People just don't know anymore where's left and right, 
up and down...
In my opinion the Germans lost a chance to give him his due appreciation. He 
still remains a disputed marginal writer, whereas  nobel prices have 
been awarded to  Günter Grass and the likes..
Nothing against GG - but EJ doesn't just dwell on the sufaces and the 
phenomenal.  He is so much deeper!
Ernst Jünger as well as Georg Friedrich Jünger (his critical book Die 
Perfektion der Technik would be so  up-to-date and current - isn't it a pity 
it  has fallen into such an oblivion?) 
- well both of the Jünger brothers are such deep thinkers!.
 
If only they were more prominent on today's scene - there would be so many  
more answers to todays problems.
 
But people seem to stick with the ephemeral and superficial.
 
Best regards
Rich
 

- Original Message - 
From: marta giana 
To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie









Dear Simon,
 
General Perón didn't have children. I guess you are talking about Eva Perón, 
who was his wife. 
 
Yes , I have a positive opinion on General Perón, someone who leads a deep 
change in Argentina, after World War II, taking distance from both, comunism 
and capitalism, creating with som others (Nasser, Nehru etc) the third 
position.
 
He was in Germany and in Italy before the war. His enemies entitled him

AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

[Simon Friedrich]

Dear Marta,

I do know who General Perón and his daughter were, and even some of their story 
- most of what I have heard was not positive. But since this information was 
really only opinions of others on the matter, I did not feel qualified to make 
any statement and preferred to say I didn't know his story at all. 

Your apparently positive opinion on the General makes me curious to find out 
for myself. 

By the way, we are not all articulated Europeans on this group - I at least am 
a South African, though I live in Europe now.

Simon





Von: marta giana mamog...@yahoo.com.ar
An: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 5. Februar 2009, 21:07:38 Uhr
Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

  
I'm happy to know that my so simple question about Alex has began the 
interesting discussion about biographies, academics, eunuchs, and all that 
really complex issues. 
 
It means, at least, that, our friend EJ continues shaking minds and provoking. 
I think he was and is a great provoker.
 
Whatever, its a pity you  articulated europeans ,always show us you don't know 
anything about our history, people, revolutions, changes.
 
General Perón was someone very important and interesting in Argentina and in 
America Latina.
Yours
marta


--- El jue 5-feb-09, klaus gauger klaus_gau...@yahoo.com escribió:

De: klaus gauger klaus_gau...@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
Para: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Fecha: jueves, 5 de febrero de 2009, 3:49 pm


Dear Stefan,
 
 
I don´t know if there is a direct connection between Jünger and Solzhenitsyn, 
but in his book Der Walgang he attacs totalitarian ideology, communism, but 
also the totalitarian aspects of our, the western system, and he tries to find 
out how individual liberty can be preserved under the actual circumstances, 
with a special focus on the situation in the eastern block, where the 
totalitarian tendencies were much stronger than in our system (though also our 
system is not really absolutely free and also in our system the individual 
liberty is always in danger - we shouldn´t be so naive to think that only in 
nazism and communism the individual liberties are in danger - also our system 
is not free from pressure and totalitarian tendencies - think only about how we 
are manipulated by the medias and the interests of the leading groups in the 
economic and political field of our societies - we are manipulated from many 
sides and it´s not easy to preserve a
 clear sight of what is really happening in our societies. 
 
 
Yours,
 
Klaus
 


--- Stefan Jarl stefj...@gmail. com schrieb am Do, 5.2.2009:

Von: Stefan Jarl stefj...@gmail. com
Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Datum: Donnerstag, 5. Februar 2009, 17:20


I've followed your discussion and would like to ask you how you understand 
Jünger's stance on ideology, or perhaps what role, if any, a critique of this 
defining phenomenon of the last century has in his work. The critique of 
communism and nazism is course present all over his Paris diaries for example, 
but did he ever make this into a, more or less explicit, theme for any of his 
books?

I've come to think of this since I've lately spent a lot of time reading 
Solzhenitsyn, a man who throughout his life strove to see the person behind the 
dangerous generalisations of ideology. Did Jünger have any relation what so 
ever to this very great man? In any case, I belive them to be closely related, 
in that they both are so very much symbols of the 20th century and that both 
were men with a great sense for the spiritual and moral plight of modern man.


Thanks for the enlightening discussion,

/Stefan



2009/2/5 klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com

Dear Simon,
 
 
I am glad that you agree with what I wrote about Jünger and his interpreters. 
Jünger polarized often his interpreters, a lot of interpretations a distorted, 
because they are written by uncritical admirers and right-wing Jüngerians (I 
am sure Jünger would have smiled about these self-proclaimed intelectual 
right-wing stormtroopers ), and some left-wing intelectuals who want to 
transform us into political correct consumers in a market-society where you can 
find on a material level nearly everything, but no people with brains and some 
human values.
 
 
 
Yours,
 
 
Klaus
 
 


--- Simon Friedrich simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de schrieb am Do, 5.2.2009:

Von: Simon Friedrich simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de
Betreff: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie 

An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Datum: Donnerstag, 5. Februar 2009, 10:54 



Klaus, I can only concur with what you say 100%. 

(But as I said earlier, I do admit to generalizing a little in order to correct 
the academic and political bias in this field.)

Simon





 Von: klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 4. Februar 2009, 17:14:23

Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

[marta giana]

Dear Simon,
 
General Perón didn't have children. I guess you are talking about Eva Perón, 
who was his wife. 
 
Yes , I have a positive opinion on General Perón, someone who leads a deep 
change in Argentina, after World War II, taking distance from both, comunism 
and capitalism, creating with som others (Nasser, Nehru etc) the third 
position.
 
He was in Germany and in Italy before the war. His enemies entitled him as 
fascist, but he never admit it and his governemnt was more populista. I 
don't want to give lessons about peronismo, ¡¡And in English! My God!
 
Our friend EJ  helps us  not to have teaching and trying to convince attitudes.
 
Thanks a lot for the comment about Eümeswil. I'll try to go again to it, 
although I'm reading the last EJ Diary, not so moving as the one in Paris, but 
also interesting.
 
Yours, Marta 


--- El vie 6-feb-09, Simon Friedrich simonfriedr...@yahoo.de escribió:

De: Simon Friedrich simonfriedr...@yahoo.de
Asunto: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
Para: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Fecha: viernes, 6 de febrero de 2009, 9:00 am








Dear Marta,

I do know who General Perón and his daughter were, and even some of their story 
- most of what I have heard was not positive. But since this information was 
really only opinions of others on the matter, I did not feel qualified to make 
any statement and preferred to say I didn't know his story at all. 

Your apparently positive opinion on the General makes me curious to find out 
for myself. 

By the way, we are not all articulated Europeans on this group - I at least am 
a South African, though I live in Europe now.

Simon





Von: marta giana mamog...@yahoo. com.ar
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 5. Februar 2009, 21:07:38 Uhr
Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie







I'm happy to know that my so simple question about Alex has began the 
interesting discussion about biographies, academics, eunuchs, and all that 
really complex issues. 
 
It means, at least, that, our friend EJ continues shaking minds and provoking. 
I think he was and is a great provoker.
 
Whatever, its a pity you  articulated europeans ,always show us you don't know 
anything about our history, people, revolutions, changes.
 
General Perón was someone very important and interesting in Argentina and in 
America Latina.
Yours
marta


--- El jue 5-feb-09, klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com escribió:

De: klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
Para: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Fecha: jueves, 5 de febrero de 2009, 3:49 pm









Dear Stefan,
 
 
I don´t know if there is a direct connection between Jünger and Solzhenitsyn, 
but in his book Der Walgang he attacs totalitarian ideology, communism, but 
also the totalitarian aspects of our, the western system, and he tries to find 
out how individual liberty can be preserved under the actual circumstances, 
with a special focus on the situation in the eastern block, where the 
totalitarian tendencies were much stronger than in our system (though also our 
system is not really absolutely free and also in our system the individual 
liberty is always in danger - we shouldn´t be so naive to think that only in 
nazism and communism the individual liberties are in danger - also our system 
is not free from pressure and totalitarian tendencies - think only about how we 
are manipulated by the medias and the interests of the leading groups in the 
economic and political field of our societies - we are manipulated from many 
sides and it´s not easy to preserve
 a clear sight of what is really happening in our societies. 
 
 
Yours,
 
Klaus
 


--- Stefan Jarl stefj...@gmail. com schrieb am Do, 5.2.2009:

Von: Stefan Jarl stefj...@gmail. com
Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Datum: Donnerstag, 5. Februar 2009, 17:20




I've followed your discussion and would like to ask you how you understand 
Jünger's stance on ideology, or perhaps what role, if any, a critique of this 
defining phenomenon of the last century has in his work. The critique of 
communism and nazism is course present all over his Paris diaries for example, 
but did he ever make this into a, more or less explicit, theme for any of his 
books?

I've come to think of this since I've lately spent a lot of time reading 
Solzhenitsyn, a man who throughout his life strove to see the person behind the 
dangerous generalisations of ideology. Did Jünger have any relation what so 
ever to this very great man? In any case, I belive them to be closely related, 
in that they both are so very much symbols of the 20th century and that both 
were men with a great sense for the spiritual and moral plight of modern man.


Thanks for the enlightening discussion,

/Stefan



2009/2/5 klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com











Dear Simon,
 
 
I am glad that you agree with what I wrote about Jünger and his interpreters. 
Jünger

Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

[klaus gauger]

Dear Marta,
 
 
as I told you, Perón was not that bad. Videla for example was much worse than 
Perón. Perón was even democratically elected (at least he won some election, 
though from what argentine friends and argentine students told me - I am an 
university teacher - elections in Argentina are until today somewhat special, 
but anyway). Perón was a populist and he changed Argentina deeply - that´s true 
- but did he change Argentina into better? His enemies didn´t believe that, and 
until today there are a lot of people  - also in Argentina - who think that 
Peróns presidency was the beginning of the economical decline of Argentina, 
culminating in people (and Peronistas) like Meném who was openly corrupt and 
made an horrible economic policy, that led later into the bankruptcy of the 
state Argentina in the beginnig of this century. So I don´t say that Perón was 
an asshole, but I usually don´t like politicians, I also don´t like the German 
politicians and
 idiots like our last chancellor Gerhard Schröder or our actual chancellor 
Angela Merkel. Most politicians are indecent and stupid, and I believe the late 
Ernst Jünger was totally right when he answered in the seventies or eighties to 
a german journalist who asked him what he thought about the actual german 
politicians: Have you seen the faces of this people on the election posters?
I don´t think there is more to say about this subject.
 
 
Yours,
 
Klaus
 

--- marta giana mamog...@yahoo.com.ar schrieb am Fr, 6.2.2009:

Von: marta giana mamog...@yahoo.com.ar
Betreff: Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
An: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Datum: Freitag, 6. Februar 2009, 20:23












Dear Simon,
 
General Perón didn't have children. I guess you are talking about Eva Perón, 
who was his wife. 
 
Yes , I have a positive opinion on General Perón, someone who leads a deep 
change in Argentina, after World War II, taking distance from both, comunism 
and capitalism, creating with som others (Nasser, Nehru etc) the third 
position.
 
He was in Germany and in Italy before the war. His enemies entitled him as 
fascist, but he never admit it and his governemnt was more populista. I 
don't want to give lessons about peronismo, ¡¡And in English! My God!
 
Our friend EJ  helps us  not to have teaching and trying to convince attitudes.
 
Thanks a lot for the comment about Eümeswil. I'll try to go again to it, 
although I'm reading the last EJ Diary, not so moving as the one in Paris, but 
also interesting.
 
Yours, Marta 


--- El vie 6-feb-09, Simon Friedrich simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de escribió:

De: Simon Friedrich simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de
Asunto: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
Para: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Fecha: viernes, 6 de febrero de 2009, 9:00 am






Dear Marta,

I do know who General Perón and his daughter were, and even some of their story 
- most of what I have heard was not positive. But since this information was 
really only opinions of others on the matter, I did not feel qualified to make 
any statement and preferred to say I didn't know his story at all. 

Your apparently positive opinion on the General makes me curious to find out 
for myself. 

By the way, we are not all articulated Europeans on this group - I at least am 
a South African, though I live in Europe now.

Simon





Von: marta giana mamog...@yahoo. com.ar
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 5. Februar 2009, 21:07:38 Uhr
Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie







I'm happy to know that my so simple question about Alex has began the 
interesting discussion about biographies, academics, eunuchs, and all that 
really complex issues. 
 
It means, at least, that, our friend EJ continues shaking minds and provoking. 
I think he was and is a great provoker.
 
Whatever, its a pity you  articulated europeans ,always show us you don't know 
anything about our history, people, revolutions, changes.
 
General Perón was someone very important and interesting in Argentina and in 
America Latina.
Yours
marta


--- El jue 5-feb-09, klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com escribió:

De: klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
Para: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Fecha: jueves, 5 de febrero de 2009, 3:49 pm









Dear Stefan,
 
 
I don´t know if there is a direct connection between Jünger and Solzhenitsyn, 
but in his book Der Walgang he attacs totalitarian ideology, communism, but 
also the totalitarian aspects of our, the western system, and he tries to find 
out how individual liberty can be preserved under the actual circumstances, 
with a special focus on the situation in the eastern block, where the 
totalitarian tendencies were much stronger than in our system (though also our 
system is not really absolutely free and also in our system the individual 
liberty is always in danger - we shouldn´t be so naive to think that only in 
nazism and communism the individual liberties are in danger - also

Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

[Richard Krähenbühl]

Quite interesting, this world-wide chat about Ernst Jünger.
Lots to be learned from his writings, of course also for politicians.

There's been a musical called Evita and  thereafter a pop star called 
Madonna (what a presumptuous name) acted as Evita Péron in the
suceeding movie
Perhaps I should see that movie, because I know next to nothing about the issue.

As to E.J.
His writings are a gift. Still more so they would be in our times!. Times of 
general disorientation. People just don't know anymore where's left and right, 
up and down...
In my opinion the Germans lost a chance to give him his due appreciation. He 
still remains a disputed marginal writer, whereas  nobel prices have been 
awarded to  Günter Grass and the likes.
Nothing against GG - but EJ doesn't just dwell on the sufaces and the 
phenomenal.  He is so much deeper!
Ernst Jünger as well as Georg Friedrich Jünger (his critical book Die 
Perfektion der Technik would be so  up-to-date and current - isn't it a pity 
it  has fallen into such an oblivion?) 
- well both of the Jünger brothers are such deep thinkers!.

If only they were more prominent on today's scene - there would be so many  
more answers to todays problems.

But people seem to stick with the ephemeral and superficial.

Best regards
Rich

  - Original Message - 
  From: marta giana 
  To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
  Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:23 PM
  Subject: Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie


Dear Simon,

General Perón didn't have children. I guess you are talking about Eva 
Perón, who was his wife. 

Yes , I have a positive opinion on General Perón, someone who leads a 
deep change in Argentina, after World War II, taking distance from both, 
comunism and capitalism, creating with som others (Nasser, Nehru etc) the 
third position.

He was in Germany and in Italy before the war. His enemies entitled him 
as fascist, but he never admit it and his governemnt was more populista. I 
don't want to give lessons about peronismo, ¡¡And in English! My God!

Our friend EJ  helps us  not to have teaching and trying to convince 
attitudes.

Thanks a lot for the comment about Eümeswil. I'll try to go again to 
it, although I'm reading the last EJ Diary, not so moving as the one in Paris, 
but also interesting.

Yours, Marta 


--- El vie 6-feb-09, Simon Friedrich simonfriedr...@yahoo.de escribió:

  De: Simon Friedrich simonfriedr...@yahoo.de
  Asunto: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
  Para: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
  Fecha: viernes, 6 de febrero de 2009, 9:00 am


  Dear Marta,

  I do know who General Perón and his daughter were, and even some of 
their story - most of what I have heard was not positive. But since this 
information was really only opinions of others on the matter, I did not feel 
qualified to make any statement and preferred to say I didn't know his story at 
all. 

  Your apparently positive opinion on the General makes me curious to 
find out for myself. 

  By the way, we are not all articulated Europeans on this group - I at 
least am a South African, though I live in Europe now.

  Simon




--
  Von: marta giana mamog...@yahoo. com.ar
  An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
  Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 5. Februar 2009, 21:07:38 Uhr
  Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

I'm happy to know that my so simple question about Alex has 
began the interesting discussion about biographies, academics, eunuchs, and all 
that really complex issues. 

It means, at least, that, our friend EJ continues shaking minds 
and provoking. I think he was and is a great provoker.

Whatever, its a pity you  articulated europeans ,always show us 
you don't know anything about our history, people, revolutions, changes.

General Perón was someone very important and interesting in 
Argentina and in America Latina.
Yours
marta


--- El jue 5-feb-09, klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com 
escribió:

  De: klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com
  Asunto: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
  Para: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
  Fecha: jueves, 5 de febrero de 2009, 3:49 pm


Dear Stefan,


I don´t know if there is a direct connection between 
Jünger and Solzhenitsyn, but in his book Der Walgang he attacs totalitarian 
ideology, communism, but also the totalitarian aspects of our, the western 
system, and he tries to find out how individual liberty can be preserved under 
the actual circumstances, with a special focus on the situation in the eastern 
block, where the totalitarian tendencies were much stronger

Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

[klaus gauger]

Dear Richard,
 
 
yes, you are right, thinking about the ecological problems our industry and 
tecnology is creating on a world-wide level (climate change, the coming end of 
the oil-age, destruction of our environment like the big amazonian forest in 
Brasil,  etc.) a book like Die Perfektion der Technik seems to be 
prophetical. Friedrich Georg Jünger says it clearly: Nicht der Anfang, sondern 
das Ende trägt die Last. Technology and modern industry might have been a 
promise in the eighteenth and nineteenth century, but now we are feeling what 
costs and risks are connected with the industrialization and technologization 
of our world. I hope Friedrich Georg Jünger is too pessimistic and we can solve 
our problems, though sometimes - when I see how the politicians worldwide have 
been treating this eminent problem in the last twenty years-  I fear that 
Friedrich Georg Jünger in the end will be right and we soon will have a global 
mess created by the uncontrolable
 sideeffects of industrialization and technologization.
 
 
Yours,
 
 
Klaus
 


--- Richard Krähenbühl ri...@t-online.de schrieb am Fr, 6.2.2009:

Von: Richard Krähenbühl ri...@t-online.de
Betreff: Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
An: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Datum: Freitag, 6. Februar 2009, 23:17






 
Quite interesting, this world-wide chat about Ernst Jünger.
Lots to be learned from his writings, of course also for politicians.
 
There's been a musical called Evita and  thereafter a pop star called 
Madonna (what a presumptuous name) acted as Evita Péron in the
suceeding movie
Perhaps I should see that movie, because I know next to nothing about the issue.
 
As to E.J.
His writings are a gift. Still more so they would be in our times!. Times of 
general disorientation. People just don't know anymore where's left and right, 
up and down...
In my opinion the Germans lost a chance to give him his due appreciation. He 
still remains a disputed marginal writer, whereas  nobel prices have 
been awarded to  Günter Grass and the likes.
Nothing against GG - but EJ doesn't just dwell on the sufaces and the 
phenomenal.  He is so much deeper!
Ernst Jünger as well as Georg Friedrich Jünger (his critical book Die 
Perfektion der Technik would be so  up-to-date and current - isn't it a pity 
it  has fallen into such an oblivion?) 
- well both of the Jünger brothers are such deep thinkers!.
 
If only they were more prominent on today's scene - there would be so many  
more answers to todays problems.
 
But people seem to stick with the ephemeral and superficial.
 
Best regards
Rich
 

- Original Message - 
From: marta giana 
To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie









Dear Simon,
 
General Perón didn't have children. I guess you are talking about Eva Perón, 
who was his wife. 
 
Yes , I have a positive opinion on General Perón, someone who leads a deep 
change in Argentina, after World War II, taking distance from both, comunism 
and capitalism, creating with som others (Nasser, Nehru etc) the third 
position.
 
He was in Germany and in Italy before the war. His enemies entitled him as 
fascist, but he never admit it and his governemnt was more populista. I 
don't want to give lessons about peronismo, ¡¡And in English! My God!
 
Our friend EJ  helps us  not to have teaching and trying to convince attitudes.
 
Thanks a lot for the comment about Eümeswil. I'll try to go again to it, 
although I'm reading the last EJ Diary, not so moving as the one in Paris, but 
also interesting.
 
Yours, Marta 


--- El vie 6-feb-09, Simon Friedrich simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de escribió:

De: Simon Friedrich simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de
Asunto: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
Para: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Fecha: viernes, 6 de febrero de 2009, 9:00 am






Dear Marta,

I do know who General Perón and his daughter were, and even some of their story 
- most of what I have heard was not positive. But since this information was 
really only opinions of others on the matter, I did not feel qualified to make 
any statement and preferred to say I didn't know his story at all. 

Your apparently positive opinion on the General makes me curious to find out 
for myself. 

By the way, we are not all articulated Europeans on this group - I at least am 
a South African, though I live in Europe now.

Simon





Von: marta giana mamog...@yahoo. com.ar
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 5. Februar 2009, 21:07:38 Uhr
Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie







I'm happy to know that my so simple question about Alex has began the 
interesting discussion about biographies, academics, eunuchs, and all that 
really complex issues. 
 
It means, at least, that, our friend EJ continues shaking minds and provoking. 
I think he was and is a great provoker.
 
Whatever, its a pity you  articulated europeans ,always show us you don't know 
anything about

AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

[Simon Friedrich]

You're right, a generalization, but one that was made as a compensatory move to 
a general tendency to over-intellectualize (and thus disempower) words that 
contain a lot more of real practical value in them. Too much abstract thinking 
clouds the real value of the work. I guarantee you Juenger himself wrote his 
works to provide a map for the real world, not to serve as fodder for academic 
pouring from the empty into the void.

What we are supposed to write about and discuss in this forum, since you asked, 
is how WE understand Juenger's ideas, and only secondarily to bring in other 
authorities. I couldn't care less if Joe Expert, or Tom Public Figure says 
this and that are true of Juenger - perhaps so, perhaps they are completely out 
to lunch, that much I will decide for myself.

I suppose the academic also has his uses of Juenger's work, but they
are different from mine. Live and let live, and perhaps both sides, if
I am to maintain the polarization, can learn something from the other.

But when it come to the eunuchs, by which term all academics certainly not be 
described, then I assert that they do not have their own seed, but merely steal 
the seed of others to try to grow their own plant. I am interested in truly 
growing my own plant, and not in only appearing to have grown it, when the seed 
actually belongs to another.

Simon





Von: Gerald Brennan brenna...@yahoo.com
An: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 4. Februar 2009, 13:26:50 Uhr
Betreff: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

I have to say this sounds a little black and white to me, as if to say that no 
one has a right to an opinion about Jünger. Or perhaps, no one has a right to 
an opinion that is different than mine. It also sounds a tad over-generalizing. 
Is anyone at a university who teaches a particular subject a eunuch? Or as 
someone said, a wanker? (Mutually exclusive actually) If only the writings 
themselves matter, then what are we supposed to write about here in this 
newsgroup? Where does a discussion start and how does it continue? I admit 
there are a lot of adcademics who have very little of interst to say about 
their field of specialization. But I would hate to criticize ALL of them for 
the sins of some.

Jerry


For me the difference between the theoreticians and, let's call the
other group, us :-) is that the former takes EJ as a source of
employment, as a pleasant hobby, a Zeitvertreibung, or even a scapegoat
for their own polarized views, whereas the latter understands that his
work can have a real practical benefit for their own personal growth
and understanding of the world. The first group haven't made that
realization yet - but one can hope that during their sometimes purely
onanistic occupation with his work they may start to sense its real
value and make the switch to practical and personal application.

Which reminds me: somewhere Jünger talks about a typical evolution
which occurs in many people's lives from the theoretical, idealistic
left-wing to the practically oriented right-wing. The character
simultaneously becomes more distinct, less generalized. This must be
rooted deep in matter itself, he suggests, which is to say that the
political switch is merely one expression or reflection, and not the
most important, of this fundamental process. Perhaps the same
difference is present between those who see his work theoretically and
those who understand its practical applications.



  



Yahoo! Groups Links




  

AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

[Simon Friedrich]

Klaus, I can only concur with what you say 100%. 

(But as I said earlier, I do admit to generalizing a little in order to correct 
the academic and political bias in this field.)

Simon





Von: klaus gauger klaus_gau...@yahoo.com
An: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 4. Februar 2009, 17:14:23 Uhr
Betreff: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

 
Dear Gerald,
 
 
I wrote myself a doctoral thesis about Ernst Jünger (it was published by Peter 
Lang, Zurich, in 1997 under the title: Krieger, Arbeiter, Waldgänger, Anarch). 
But this is not really important, there have been written dozens of doctoral 
thesis about Ernst Jünger, some of them are better, some of them are worse. I 
think important is only the personal relationship a reader establishes to 
Jünger an his work. An aphorism of Lichtenberg says: If a book and a mind 
collide, and it sounds hollow, is it always the books fault? So I am only 
interested in people where the collision between Ernst Jüngers books and their 
minds didn´t sound hollow. I am interested in the Jüngerians where something 
happened when they read Ernst Jüngers books. There are so many academic writers 
who despise Ernst Jünger for some reason (He was a fascist, he wasn´t a 
democrat, he was an elitarian solipsist, etc.) and there others who admire 
him for absurd things (for
 example, some right-wing interpreters emphasize his success as a member of an 
elitarian stormtroop-unit and his many condecorations in World War I like the 
Pour le Mérite - you could also admire 
nazi-bosses like Hermann Göring for that, he was a member of the flying squad 
of the Red Baron Manfred von Richthofen in World War I and also earned the 
Pour le merite, like Ernst Jünger). All this is absurd, important is only the 
relationship a reader establishes to Ernst Jüngers works in case that there 
exists a genuine, affective and intelectual attraction
by Ernst Jüngers work and not the intention to use Ernst Jüngers works for some 
political strategy  - affirmative admiration for the nationalist and militarist 
Ernst Jünger in case of some ultra-right-wing interpreters (these people 
usually don´t like the later Jünger, the anarchist, solipsist and apolitical 
philosopher) - and rejection and polemic distortion of Ernst Jüngers works by 
some left-wing interpreters who only use (or better: abuse) Ernst Jüngers 
example to criticize what these ignorants call elitarian, fascist and 
antidemocratic thought and literature..
 
 
Yours,
 
Klaus
 
 
 

--- Gerald Brennan brenna...@yahoo.com schrieb am Mi, 4.2.2009:

Von: Gerald Brennan brenna...@yahoo.com
Betreff: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
An: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Datum: Mittwoch, 4. Februar 2009, 13:26


I have to say this sounds a little black and white to me, as if to say that no 
one has a right to an opinion about Jünger. Or perhaps, no one has a right to 
an opinion that is different than mine. It also sounds a tad over-generalizing. 
Is anyone at a university who teaches a particular subject a eunuch? Or as 
someone said, a wanker? (Mutually exclusive actually) If only the writings 
themselves matter, then what are we supposed to write about here in this 
newsgroup? Where does a discussion start and how does it continue? I admit 
there are a lot of adcademics who have very little of interst to say about 
their field of specialization. But I would hate to criticize ALL of them for 
the sins of some.

Jerry

For me the difference between the theoreticians and, let's call the
other group, us :-) is that the former takes EJ as a source of
employment, as a pleasant hobby, a Zeitvertreibung, or even a scapegoat
for their own polarized views, whereas the latter understands that his
work can have a real practical benefit for their own personal growth
and understanding of the world. The first group haven't made that
realization yet - but one can hope that during their sometimes purely
onanistic occupation with his work they may start to sense its real
value and make the switch to practical and personal application.

Which reminds me: somewhere Jünger talks about a typical evolution
which occurs in many people's lives from the theoretical, idealistic
left-wing to the practically oriented right-wing. The character
simultaneously becomes more distinct, less generalized. This must be
rooted deep in matter itself, he suggests, which is to say that the
political switch is merely one expression or reflection, and not the
most important, of this fundamental process. Perhaps the same
difference is present between those who see his work theoretically and
those who understand its practical applications.

 
 


  

AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

[klaus gauger]

Dear Simon,
 
 
I am glad that you agree with what I wrote about Jünger and his interpreters. 
Jünger polarized often his interpreters, a lot of interpretations a distorted, 
because they are written by uncritical admirers and right-wing Jüngerians (I 
am sure Jünger would have smiled about these self-proclaimed intelectual 
right-wing stormtroopers), and some left-wing intelectuals who want to 
transform us into political correct consumers in a market-society where you can 
find on a material level nearly everything, but no people with brains and some 
human values.
 
 
 
Yours,
 
 
Klaus
 
 


--- Simon Friedrich simonfriedr...@yahoo.de schrieb am Do, 5.2.2009:

Von: Simon Friedrich simonfriedr...@yahoo.de
Betreff: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
An: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Datum: Donnerstag, 5. Februar 2009, 10:54








Klaus, I can only concur with what you say 100%. 

(But as I said earlier, I do admit to generalizing a little in order to correct 
the academic and political bias in this field.)

Simon





Von: klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 4. Februar 2009, 17:14:23 Uhr
Betreff: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie






Dear Gerald,
 
 
I wrote myself a doctoral thesis about Ernst Jünger (it was published by Peter 
Lang, Zurich, in 1997 under the title: Krieger, Arbeiter, Waldgänger, Anarch). 
But this is not really important, there have been written dozens of doctoral 
thesis about Ernst Jünger, some of them are better, some of them are worse. I 
think important is only the personal relationship a reader establishes to 
Jünger an his work. An aphorism of Lichtenberg says: If a book and a mind 
collide, and it sounds hollow, is it always the books fault? So I am only 
interested in people where the collision between Ernst Jüngers books and their 
minds didn´t sound hollow. I am interested in the Jüngerians where something 
happened when they read Ernst Jüngers books. There are so many academic writers 
who despise Ernst Jünger for some reason (He was a fascist, he wasn´t a 
democrat, he was an elitarian solipsist, etc.) and there others who admire 
him for absurd things
 (for example, some right-wing interpreters emphasize his success as a member 
of an elitarian stormtroop-unit and his many condecorations in World War I like 
the Pour le Mérite - you could also admire 
nazi-bosses like Hermann Göring for that, he was a member of the flying squad 
of the Red Baron Manfred von Richthofen in World War I and also earned the 
Pour le merite, like Ernst Jünger). All this is absurd, important is only the 
relationship a reader establishes to Ernst Jüngers works in case that 
there exists a genuine, affective and intelectual attraction
by Ernst Jüngers work and not the intention to use Ernst Jüngers works for some 
political strategy  - affirmative admiration for the nationalist and militarist 
Ernst Jünger in case of some ultra-right- wing interpreters (these people 
usually don´t like the later Jünger, the anarchist, solipsist and apolitical 
philosopher) - and rejection and polemic distortion of Ernst Jüngers works by 
some left-wing interpreters who only use (or better: abuse) Ernst Jüngers 
example to criticize what these ignorants call elitarian, fascist and 
antidemocratic thought and literature.
 
 
Yours,
 
Klaus
 
 
 

--- Gerald Brennan brenna...@yahoo. com schrieb am Mi, 4.2.2009:

Von: Gerald Brennan brenna...@yahoo. com
Betreff: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Datum: Mittwoch, 4. Februar 2009, 13:26




I have to say this sounds a little black and white to me, as if to say that no 
one has a right to an opinion about Jünger. Or perhaps, no one has a right to 
an opinion that is different than mine. It also sounds a tad over-generalizing. 
Is anyone at a university who teaches a particular subject a eunuch? Or as 
someone said, a wanker? (Mutually exclusive actually) If only the writings 
themselves matter, then what are we supposed to write about here in this 
newsgroup? Where does a discussion start and how does it continue? I admit 
there are a lot of adcademics who have very little of interst to say about 
their field of specialization. But I would hate to criticize ALL of them for 
the sins of some.

Jerry

For me the difference between the theoreticians and, let's call the
other group, us :-) is that the former takes EJ as a source of
employment, as a pleasant hobby, a Zeitvertreibung, or even a scapegoat
for their own polarized views, whereas the latter understands that his
work can have a real practical benefit for their own personal growth
and understanding of the world. The first group haven't made that
realization yet - but one can hope that during their sometimes purely
onanistic occupation with his work they may start to sense its real
value and make the switch to practical and personal application.

Which reminds me: somewhere Jünger talks about a typical evolution
which

Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

[klaus gauger]

Dear Stefan,
 
 
I don´t know if there is a direct connection between Jünger and Solzhenitsyn, 
but in his book Der Walgang he attacs totalitarian ideology, communism, but 
also the totalitarian aspects of our, the western system, and he tries to find 
out how individual liberty can be preserved under the actual circumstances, 
with a special focus on the situation in the eastern block, where the 
totalitarian tendencies were much stronger than in our system (though also our 
system is not really absolutely free and also in our system the individual 
liberty is always in danger - we shouldn´t be so naive to think that only in 
nazism and communism the individual liberties are in danger - also our system 
is not free from pressure and totalitarian tendencies - think only about how we 
are manipulated by the medias and the interests of the leading groups in the 
economic and political field of our societies - we are manipulated from many 
sides and it´s not easy to preserve
 a clear sight of what is really happening in our societies. 
 
 
Yours,
 
Klaus
 


--- Stefan Jarl stefj...@gmail.com schrieb am Do, 5.2.2009:

Von: Stefan Jarl stefj...@gmail.com
Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
An: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Datum: Donnerstag, 5. Februar 2009, 17:20






I've followed your discussion and would like to ask you how you understand 
Jünger's stance on ideology, or perhaps what role, if any, a critique of this 
defining phenomenon of the last century has in his work. The critique of 
communism and nazism is course present all over his Paris diaries for example, 
but did he ever make this into a, more or less explicit, theme for any of his 
books?

I've come to think of this since I've lately spent a lot of time reading 
Solzhenitsyn, a man who throughout his life strove to see the person behind the 
dangerous generalisations of ideology. Did Jünger have any relation what so 
ever to this very great man? In any case, I belive them to be closely related, 
in that they both are so very much symbols of the 20th century and that both 
were men with a great sense for the spiritual and moral plight of modern man.


Thanks for the enlightening discussion,

/Stefan



2009/2/5 klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com











Dear Simon,
 
 
I am glad that you agree with what I wrote about Jünger and his interpreters. 
Jünger polarized often his interpreters, a lot of interpretations a distorted, 
because they are written by uncritical admirers and right-wing Jüngerians (I 
am sure Jünger would have smiled about these self-proclaimed intelectual 
right-wing stormtroopers), and some left-wing intelectuals who want to 
transform us into political correct consumers in a market-society where you can 
find on a material level nearly everything, but no people with brains and some 
human values.
 
 
 
Yours,
 
 
Klaus
 
 


--- Simon Friedrich simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de schrieb am Do, 5.2.2009:

Von: Simon Friedrich simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de
Betreff: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Datum: Donnerstag, 5. Februar 2009, 10:54









Klaus, I can only concur with what you say 100%. 

(But as I said earlier, I do admit to generalizing a little in order to correct 
the academic and political bias in this field.)

Simon





Von: klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 4. Februar 2009, 17:14:23 Uhr
Betreff: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie






Dear Gerald,
 
 
I wrote myself a doctoral thesis about Ernst Jünger (it was published by Peter 
Lang, Zurich, in 1997 under the title: Krieger, Arbeiter, Waldgänger, Anarch). 
But this is not really important, there have been written dozens of doctoral 
thesis about Ernst Jünger, some of them are better, some of them are worse. I 
think important is only the personal relationship a reader establishes to 
Jünger an his work. An aphorism of Lichtenberg says: If a book and a mind 
collide, and it sounds hollow, is it always the books fault? So I am only 
interested in people where the collision between Ernst Jüngers books and their 
minds didn´t sound hollow. I am interested in the Jüngerians where something 
happened when they read Ernst Jüngers books. There are so many academic writers 
who despise Ernst Jünger for some reason (He was a fascist, he wasn´t a 
democrat, he was an elitarian solipsist, etc.) and there others who admire 
him for absurd things
 (for example, some right-wing interpreters emphasize his success as a member 
of an elitarian stormtroop-unit and his many condecorations in World War I like 
the Pour le Mérite - you could also admire 
nazi-bosses like Hermann Göring for that, he was a member of the flying squad 
of the Red Baron Manfred von Richthofen in World War I and also earned the 
Pour le merite, like Ernst Jünger). All this is absurd, important is only the 
relationship a reader establishes to Ernst Jüngers works in case that 
there exists a genuine

Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

[marta giana]

I'm happy to know that my so simple question about Alex has began the 
interesting discussion about biographies, academics, eunuchs, and all that 
really complex issues. 
 
It means, at least, that, our friend EJ continues shaking minds and provoking. 
I think he was and is a great provoker.
 
Whatever, its a pity you  articulated europeans ,always show us you don't know 
anything about our history, people, revolutions, changes.
 
General Perón was someone very important and interesting in Argentina and in 
America Latina.
Yours
marta


--- El jue 5-feb-09, klaus gauger klaus_gau...@yahoo.com escribió:

De: klaus gauger klaus_gau...@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
Para: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Fecha: jueves, 5 de febrero de 2009, 3:49 pm











Dear Stefan,
 
 
I don´t know if there is a direct connection between Jünger and Solzhenitsyn, 
but in his book Der Walgang he attacs totalitarian ideology, communism, but 
also the totalitarian aspects of our, the western system, and he tries to find 
out how individual liberty can be preserved under the actual circumstances, 
with a special focus on the situation in the eastern block, where the 
totalitarian tendencies were much stronger than in our system (though also our 
system is not really absolutely free and also in our system the individual 
liberty is always in danger - we shouldn´t be so naive to think that only in 
nazism and communism the individual liberties are in danger - also our system 
is not free from pressure and totalitarian tendencies - think only about how we 
are manipulated by the medias and the interests of the leading groups in the 
economic and political field of our societies - we are manipulated from many 
sides and it´s not easy to preserve
 a clear sight of what is really happening in our societies. 
 
 
Yours,
 
Klaus
 


--- Stefan Jarl stefj...@gmail. com schrieb am Do, 5.2.2009:

Von: Stefan Jarl stefj...@gmail. com
Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Datum: Donnerstag, 5. Februar 2009, 17:20




I've followed your discussion and would like to ask you how you understand 
Jünger's stance on ideology, or perhaps what role, if any, a critique of this 
defining phenomenon of the last century has in his work. The critique of 
communism and nazism is course present all over his Paris diaries for example, 
but did he ever make this into a, more or less explicit, theme for any of his 
books?

I've come to think of this since I've lately spent a lot of time reading 
Solzhenitsyn, a man who throughout his life strove to see the person behind the 
dangerous generalisations of ideology. Did Jünger have any relation what so 
ever to this very great man? In any case, I belive them to be closely related, 
in that they both are so very much symbols of the 20th century and that both 
were men with a great sense for the spiritual and moral plight of modern man.


Thanks for the enlightening discussion,

/Stefan



2009/2/5 klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com











Dear Simon,
 
 
I am glad that you agree with what I wrote about Jünger and his interpreters. 
Jünger polarized often his interpreters, a lot of interpretations a distorted, 
because they are written by uncritical admirers and right-wing Jüngerians (I 
am sure Jünger would have smiled about these self-proclaimed intelectual 
right-wing stormtroopers ), and some left-wing intelectuals who want to 
transform us into political correct consumers in a market-society where you can 
find on a material level nearly everything, but no people with brains and some 
human values.
 
 
 
Yours,
 
 
Klaus
 
 


--- Simon Friedrich simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de schrieb am Do, 5.2.2009:

Von: Simon Friedrich simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de
Betreff: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie 

An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Datum: Donnerstag, 5. Februar 2009, 10:54 









Klaus, I can only concur with what you say 100%. 

(But as I said earlier, I do admit to generalizing a little in order to correct 
the academic and political bias in this field.)

Simon





Von: klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 4. Februar 2009, 17:14:23 Uhr
Betreff: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie






Dear Gerald,
 
 
I wrote myself a doctoral thesis about Ernst Jünger (it was published by Peter 
Lang, Zurich, in 1997 under the title: Krieger, Arbeiter, Waldgänger, Anarch). 
But this is not really important, there have been written dozens of doctoral 
thesis about Ernst Jünger, some of them are better, some of them are worse. I 
think important is only the personal relationship a reader establishes to 
Jünger an his work. An aphorism of Lichtenberg says: If a book and a mind 
collide, and it sounds hollow, is it always the books fault? So I am only 
interested in people where the collision between Ernst Jüngers books and their 
minds didn´t sound hollow. I am interested in the Jüngerians where

Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

[klaus gauger]

Hi Marta,
 
 
I know who Perón was, I even know who his wife Evita was. But I don´t know if 
you are a Peronist (there are still a lot of them in Argentina) or not. And I 
don´t want to hurt your feelings by making some negative remarks about Perón or 
his wife Evita, in case you are a Peronist. That´s why I didn´t mix in this 
issue. Anyway, there were a lot of much worse dictators in Latinamerika than 
Perón. But I don´t like any kind of dictators, not even Perón, I even don´´t 
like most of the democratically elected politicians, 99% of the politicians 
suck and are only interested in power and money, and not in the people who 
elected them. I do know something about latinamerican history and I even speak 
fluently Spanish.
 
 
Yours,
 
Klaus
 


--- marta giana mamog...@yahoo.com.ar schrieb am Do, 5.2.2009:

Von: marta giana mamog...@yahoo.com.ar
Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
An: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Datum: Donnerstag, 5. Februar 2009, 21:07












I'm happy to know that my so simple question about Alex has began the 
interesting discussion about biographies, academics, eunuchs, and all that 
really complex issues. 
 
It means, at least, that, our friend EJ continues shaking minds and provoking. 
I think he was and is a great provoker.
 
Whatever, its a pity you  articulated europeans ,always show us you don't know 
anything about our history, people, revolutions, changes.
 
General Perón was someone very important and interesting in Argentina and in 
America Latina.
Yours
marta


--- El jue 5-feb-09, klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com escribió:

De: klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
Para: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Fecha: jueves, 5 de febrero de 2009, 3:49 pm









Dear Stefan,
 
 
I don´t know if there is a direct connection between Jünger and Solzhenitsyn, 
but in his book Der Walgang he attacs totalitarian ideology, communism, but 
also the totalitarian aspects of our, the western system, and he tries to find 
out how individual liberty can be preserved under the actual circumstances, 
with a special focus on the situation in the eastern block, where the 
totalitarian tendencies were much stronger than in our system (though also our 
system is not really absolutely free and also in our system the individual 
liberty is always in danger - we shouldn´t be so naive to think that only in 
nazism and communism the individual liberties are in danger - also our system 
is not free from pressure and totalitarian tendencies - think only about how we 
are manipulated by the medias and the interests of the leading groups in the 
economic and political field of our societies - we are manipulated from many 
sides and it´s not easy to preserve
 a clear sight of what is really happening in our societies. 
 
 
Yours,
 
Klaus
 


--- Stefan Jarl stefj...@gmail. com schrieb am Do, 5.2.2009:

Von: Stefan Jarl stefj...@gmail. com
Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Datum: Donnerstag, 5. Februar 2009, 17:20




I've followed your discussion and would like to ask you how you understand 
Jünger's stance on ideology, or perhaps what role, if any, a critique of this 
defining phenomenon of the last century has in his work. The critique of 
communism and nazism is course present all over his Paris diaries for example, 
but did he ever make this into a, more or less explicit, theme for any of his 
books?

I've come to think of this since I've lately spent a lot of time reading 
Solzhenitsyn, a man who throughout his life strove to see the person behind the 
dangerous generalisations of ideology. Did Jünger have any relation what so 
ever to this very great man? In any case, I belive them to be closely related, 
in that they both are so very much symbols of the 20th century and that both 
were men with a great sense for the spiritual and moral plight of modern man.


Thanks for the enlightening discussion,

/Stefan



2009/2/5 klaus gauger klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com











Dear Simon,
 
 
I am glad that you agree with what I wrote about Jünger and his interpreters. 
Jünger polarized often his interpreters, a lot of interpretations a distorted, 
because they are written by uncritical admirers and right-wing Jüngerians (I 
am sure Jünger would have smiled about these self-proclaimed intelectual 
right-wing stormtroopers ), and some left-wing intelectuals who want to 
transform us into political correct consumers in a market-society where you can 
find on a material level nearly everything, but no people with brains and some 
human values.
 
 
 
Yours,
 
 
Klaus
 
 


--- Simon Friedrich simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de schrieb am Do, 5.2.2009:

Von: Simon Friedrich simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de
Betreff: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie 

An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Datum: Donnerstag, 5. Februar 2009, 10:54 









Klaus, I can only concur with what you say 100%. 

(But as I said earlier, I do admit

AW: [juenger_org] Jnger Biografie

[Gerald Brennan]

I have to say this sounds a little black and white to me, as if to say that no 
one has a right to an opinion about Jünger. Or perhaps, no one has a right to 
an opinion that is different than mine. It also sounds a tad over-generalizing. 
Is anyone at a university who teaches a particular subject a eunuch? Or as 
someone said, a wanker? (Mutually exclusive actually) If only the writings 
themselves matter, then what are we supposed to write about here in this 
newsgroup? Where does a discussion start and how does it continue? I admit 
there are a lot of adcademics who have very little of interst to say about 
their field of specialization. But I would hate to criticize ALL of them for 
the sins of some.

Jerry


For me the difference between the theoreticians and, let's call the
other group, us :-) is that the former takes EJ as a source of
employment, as a pleasant hobby, a Zeitvertreibung, or even a scapegoat
for their own polarized views, whereas the latter understands that his
work can have a real practical benefit for their own personal growth
and understanding of the world. The first group haven't made that
realization yet - but one can hope that during their sometimes purely
onanistic occupation with his work they may start to sense its real
value and make the switch to practical and personal application.

Which reminds me: somewhere Jünger talks about a typical evolution
which occurs in many people's lives from the theoretical, idealistic
left-wing to the practically oriented right-wing. The character
simultaneously becomes more distinct, less generalized. This must be
rooted deep in matter itself, he suggests, which is to say that the
political switch is merely one expression or reflection, and not the
most important, of this fundamental process. Perhaps the same
difference is present between those who see his work theoretically and
those who understand its practical applications.