RE: [lace] 13th cent needlelace from China?
Thank you, Devon, for the Met Museum link. Its a wonderful piece and the photography is awesome. http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_Of_Art/viewOne.asp?dep=20viewmode=0item=1987.277 A few years ago I saw a similar peice of Chinese needlelace at an antique dealer's in London. It was dated early 14th century, the colours were as fresh as the day it was made. The design was floral, more naturalistic than the Met piece, quite similar to later Chinese satin stitch embroideries. But the stitch was definitely detatched buttonhole. The dealer showed me another example in a beautiful (very expensive) book on Chinese embroidery. Alas, I could afford neither the book nor the embroidery! I tried (with permission) to take photographs, but it was framed, behind glass and rather high up, so there was no chance of getting detail. As others have said, this was the time of Marco Polo and the beginnings of trade between Europe and the Far East. Even though the (male) explorers may not have been particularly interested in embroidery, some pieces must have been brought back. The only puzzle is why it took the Venetians so long to realise the potential of detatched buttonhole stitch and to develop it into their own art form - the exquisite needlelace which took fashionable Europe by storm in the 16th century. Bridget in Watford, England - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [lace] 13th cent needlelace from China?
Dear Friends, My first thought was When did Marco Polo go to China? Sure enough, his dates are 1254-1324. Trade is always a two way street. While I don't necessarily think that it was Marco Polo or his father or their expedition that was the most likely contact point, I do think that traders and travellers could have introduced some European needle work in that period. My first thoughts too were of Marco Polo. His biography by McDONALD is well worth a read. But then, why would you think that European needlework was introduced as a result of his contact. Couldn it not just as easily have been the other way round?? Chinese influence came to Europe? Similar arguments have been produced regarding other such things as noodles (spaghetti); roses and wisteria Love David in Ballarat - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] 13th cent needlelace from China?
In a message dated 11/16/2004 2:48:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I do think that traders and travellers could have introduced some European needle work in that period. I was thinking about Marco Polo, et al, too. But it really hadn't occurred to me that the technique was traveling to China from Europe but rather the other way around. One problem is that I tend to associate these diamond patterns in the work more with 17th century lace. 16th century lace is usually pretty solid looking. In fact, I just very unscientifically went through the plates in Levey and the first time I see this diamond phenomenon is in plate 183, dated second half of the 17th century. So, in this case they are doing things in China in the 13th or 14th century, that Europeans are doing in the 17th. However, the use of the interior diamond patterns may be a natural development that happens if the area of detached buttonhole stitch is large. Devon Devon - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] 13th cent needlelace from China?
Since the list is quiet, perhaps I could introduce a subject that has me intriqued. The other day I saw a textile at the MMA which looks just like needlelace, being made of detached buttonhole stitch, but dates from the Yuan dynasty(1279-1368). I know that looping stiches have been made in the past. I have even seen some looped net bags in the American Southwest, but this piece so resembles Italian Needlelace, especially in its diamond shaped geometrical patterns that it is really quite stunning. To see the piece go to _http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_Of_Art/viewOne.asp?dep=20viewmode=0item=1987.277_ (http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_Of_Art/viewOne.asp?dep=20viewmode=0item=1987.277) You can enlarge with a zoom, which helps. I had earlier seen on the wall at the Cooper-Hewitt in the non-public areas, a huge enlarged poster of what appeared to be similar Chinese Needlelace depicting a figure. Recently I asked about it and was told that it was actually a small patch on a spectacular Chinese robe, dating, I believe to about the same period. In both cases the needlelace is set against a gold leaf background for ultimate glow effect. Co-incidence? Clue to origin? Thoughts anyone? Devon - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] 13th cent needlelace from China?
From the picture, it looks like embroidery to me - I can't see any detached buttonhole stitch.. I guess you have to see it in person. It is a beautiful piece though. On Tuesday, November 16, 2004, at 10:20 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The other day I saw a textile at the MMA which looks just like needlelace, being made of detached buttonhole stitch, but dates from the Yuan dynasty(1279-1368). I know that looping stiches have been made in the past. I have even seen some looped net bags in the American Southwest, but this piece so resembles Italian Needlelace, especially in its diamond shaped geometrical patterns that it is really quite stunning. Margot Walker in Halifax on the east coast of Canada - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [lace] 13th cent needlelace from China?
Dear Devon, My first thought was When did Marco Polo go to China? Sure enough, his dates are 1254-1324. Trade is always a two way street. While I don't necessarily think that it was Marco Polo or his father or their expedition that was the most likely contact point, I do think that traders and travellers could have introduced some European needle work in that period. As early as it is, the Chinese work could be a parallel development that petered out because it didn't suit the Chinese taste. A lot of Chinese embroidery uses filament silk in acres of satin stitch for lustrous, lavish show. The stitching required in this piece creates a much more matte appearance, even with the gold backup group! As for the appearance of the work, I think it looks more like Hollie Point. And I just love the color shading. (Color should be my middle name.) The edges of each element seem to be worked in an even button hole stitch, but not so closely worked as Point de Venise. For me, this opens the question of whether the motif elements were worked separately and then applied or whether they are worked directly on the foundation fabric. If the former, it is a form of lace, if the latter, it is a form of embroidery tantalizing close to lace. My experience of Chinese textiles is that the rich embroideries are not nearly as 3-D as the European needle laces became. The Chinese embroidery is sumptuous but essentially flat and full of shine. (But I may have lead a sheltered life.) Musingly, Patty Dowden Devon wrote: Since the list is quiet, perhaps I could introduce a subject that has me intriqued. The other day I saw a textile at the MMA which looks just like needlelace, being made of detached buttonhole stitch, but dates from the Yuan dynasty(1279-1368). I know that looping stiches have been made in the past. I have even seen some looped net bags in the American Southwest, but this piece so resembles Italian Needlelace, especially in its diamond shaped geometrical patterns that it is really quite stunning. To see the piece go to (http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_Of_Art/viewOne.asp?dep=20viewmode=0item=1987.277) You can enlarge with a zoom, which helps. I had earlier seen on the wall at the Cooper-Hewitt in the non-public areas, a huge enlarged poster of what appeared to be similar Chinese Needlelace depicting a figure. Recently I asked about it and was told that it was actually a small patch on a spectacular Chinese robe, dating, I believe to about the same period. In both cases the needlelace is set against a gold leaf background for ultimate glow effect. Co-incidence? Clue to origin? Thoughts anyone? Devon - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] 13th cent needlelace from China?
Yes, it does look like needle lace when you zoom in. I, too, thought it reminded me of Hollie Point (but in colour not just white). How wonderful. Sue Babbs As for the appearance of the work, I think it looks more like Hollie Point. resembles Italian Needlelace, especially in its diamond shaped geometrical patterns that it is really quite stunning. To see the piece go to (http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_Of_Art/viewOne.asp?dep=20viewmode=0item=1987.277) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
