Re: Replying to posts

[Werner LEMBERG]

> My Titanium Internet Security blocks this site as a "Dangerous Page."

Hmm.  Google doesn't do any warning...  Looking into the .msi file to
download, everything looks right (but I'm not the right person to
investigate such issues).


Werner

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RE: Replying to posts

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Werner,

My Titanium Internet Security blocks this site as a "Dangerous Page."

Mark

-Original Message-
From: lilypond-user
[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
Werner LEMBERG
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 10:27 PM
To: andrew.bern...@gmail.com
Cc: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Replying to posts

From: Werner LEMBERG <w...@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Replying to posts
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 07:19:48 +0200 (CEST)

> 
>>> What about this?
>>>
>>>   http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/
>>>
>>> I'm not an outlook user, but this looks quite promising (and is 
>>> actively maintained)!
>>
>> Really? Runs on NT4 up to XP. Support up to Outlook 2003. That's 
>> moribund by any standard, surely?
> 
> Oops!  I've misread 2006 for 2016 :-)  Sorry.

What about this, then.

  http://www.grzegorz.net/oe/oept.php

It claims to work up to Windows 7.


Werner

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Re: Replying to posts

[BB]

I have added that subject to my spam filter.
Anyway have fun in blabbermouting ...

On 30.04.2016 10:17, Johan Vromans wrote:

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 17:00:14 +
David Linn  wrote:


1) I am not David Kastrup, I am David Linn.

Hi David, good to hear from you!


5) Personal attacks against a list administrator (such as the ones
launched against me for the work I done on this list and its cousins and
their predecessors) make that administrator unlikely to do more than the
absolute minimum to maintain a list.

I do not recall any personal attacks against you in recent discussions. At
least, I didn't interpret what was said to be attacks.

This mailing list is in good shape, it is always there, responsive, there is
no spam or other big nuisances. For me this means that you do a good job! A
big thanks for that.

-- Johan

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Re: Replying to posts

[Johan Vromans]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 17:00:14 +
David Linn  wrote:

> 1) I am not David Kastrup, I am David Linn.

Hi David, good to hear from you!

> 5) Personal attacks against a list administrator (such as the ones
> launched against me for the work I done on this list and its cousins and
> their predecessors) make that administrator unlikely to do more than the
> absolute minimum to maintain a list.

I do not recall any personal attacks against you in recent discussions. At
least, I didn't interpret what was said to be attacks.

This mailing list is in good shape, it is always there, responsive, there is
no spam or other big nuisances. For me this means that you do a good job! A
big thanks for that.

-- Johan

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Re: Replying to posts

[Colin Campbell]

On 16-04-28 10:05 PM, Werner LEMBERG wrote:

As far as I know this particular list does not have a list owner,
and there are no published rules.

Of course there is a list owner.  However, up to now there wasn't a
single person who stomped our nuts too hard, so to say, forcing us to
banning him or her from the list.

In general, the list netiquette is quite simple.  Here's a small,
probably incomplete list.





In the dark days of yore, the newsgroup alt.callahans had a set of FAQ 
which were mailed automagically each month to all subscribers. Perhaps 
this set of items suggested by Werner could form the basis of a similar 
set of LP FAQ, also to be mailed automatically. Disclaimer: IANAlist 
manager!


Cheers,
Colin
--
I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his 
enemies, for the hardest victory is over self. -Aristotle, philosopher 
(384-322 BCE)


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Re: Replying to posts

[Gianmaria Lari]

My guess is that a large part of Lilypond mailing list messages deals
with issues related to graphic output (lilypond is a sort of
typesetting system, isn't it?)
If this is correct I think emails would take advantage of inline
images because these elements can make more clear messages.

Attaching images at the end of messages is less effective for the
person that writes the msg. and for the person that reads the message.
When I attach an image to a message, then I need to refer the image
using the file name; when you have multiple attachment this is not
easy and error prone.  On the other side, the reader of the message
has to open each image and be sure to watch the correct one while read
the text.
Using inline images you see the image exactly where you discuss it,
you don't need to refer it by a file name. If you check the following
link you will see an example of what I'm saying (I didn't know yet it
was a bad practice!):
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/music-patterns-and-octave-td188281.html#a188313

The same thing is valid for the inline code vs attaching source code.

Text formatting probably it is a bit less important. I use it with
parsimony but it give me the possibility to better highlight the
important part of the message etc. etc. When I cannot use it I use
ascii symbol (_ * etc).

Obviously this is what I personally consider improving the quality of
the message for the specific case of the Lilypond ML. In other context
the needs are different and I could prefer more primitive instruments.

So, *if* available technology gives us the possibility to use inline
images etc. I would definitely go for it.

* * *

David Linn has written:

[...]
> 3) My personal choice of MUA is Heirloom mailx (formerly nail), an enhanced
> version of the Berkeley mail(1) program.  That said, the list manangement
> mail for the Lilypond lists goes to Gmail, precisely so that I am able to
> deal with the ... variety of formats people send to the Lilypond lists.

uhmm. what David Linn does with the ML looks very reasonable to
me. It is easy to do and it give him the possibility to handles all
the formats variety.

* * *

Even if I believe the previous mentioned things will improve the
quality of the conversations, I'm very happy of the ml like it is now.
There are a lot of real experts helping people to solve issues and
explaining things. The fact that they, the experts, use primitive
email instruments and force me to do the same is the lesser evil
:))
g.




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Re: Replying to posts

[Chris Yate]

On 29 April 2016 at 22:06, David Bellows  wrote:
>. I know a lot of people avoid Reddit, and for very good reasons,

I think it's almost as bad a time-sink as TVTropes. Actually, Stack
sites can be too.

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Re: Replying to posts

[David Bellows]

And just to let people know, if anyone does want to carry on a massive
meta-discussion/RFC in a slightly more manageable form, there is a
subreddit devoted to Lilypond (which I happen to be the moderator
for): http://www.reddit.com/r/lilypond. We'd be totally fine with
having that, or any, kind of discussion there. I know a lot of people
avoid Reddit, and for very good reasons, I'm just throwing that option
out there.

On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 10:00 AM, David Linn  wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 11:14 PM Andrew Bernard 
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Werner,
>>
>> On 29 April 2016 at 14:05, Werner LEMBERG  wrote:
>> >
>> >> As far as I know this particular list does not have a list owner,
>> >> and there are no published rules.
>> >
>> > Of course there is a list owner.
>>
>> Who, may one ask? Why are they taking no interest in this extensive
>> discussion?
>
>
> Perhaps because the "extensive discussion"  has occurred while my
> non-working hours are spent preparing to move from one location to another.
>
> For the record:
>
> 1) I am not David Kastrup, I am David Linn.  (I do not live in Europe, I
> live in the southeastern part of the United States of America).
>
> 2) I am a dinosaur and find use of HTML, top posting, and gratuitous
> assumptions about available bandwidth annoying.  I have strong views about
> appropriate use of mailing lists but choose not to impose them on you.
>
> 3) My personal choice of MUA is Heirloom mailx (formerly nail), an enhanced
> version of the Berkeley mail(1) program.  That said, the list manangement
> mail for the Lilypond lists goes to Gmail, precisely so that I am able to
> deal with the ... variety of formats people send to the Lilypond lists.
>
> 4) As David K. suggested, the simple way to get to the administrator of a
> GNU mailing list is to send mail to -owner.  Further, if you
> visit http://lists.gnu.org/ and follow the listinfo link, or just look at
> the footer of every message from both the regular list and the digest list,
> you'll find
>
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
> which lists my address at the bottom of the page.
>
> 5) Personal attacks against a list administrator (such as the ones launched
> against me for the work I done on this list and its cousins and their
> predecessors) make that administrator unlikely to do more than the absolute
> minimum to maintain a list.
>
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>

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Re: Replying to posts

[Noeck]

Links to the discussion in 2014 have already been posted.

For reference, the discussion from 2012 is here:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2012-11/msg00018.html

Joram

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Re: Replying to posts

[Noeck]

Am 29.04.2016 um 12:20 schrieb Andrew Bernard:
> Since this is the longest thread in recent memory ... I wonder if we should 
> consider
> using some forum type software for lilypond matters?

Mentioning that this is an extraordinarily long thread and then starting
a new subject, which led to very long threads at least twice in the
past, contains some irony :)

Best,
Joram

PS: I said enough on this topic, when I startet it back then...

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Re: Replying to posts

[Malte Meyn]

Am 29.04.2016 um 15:50 schrieb Alexander Kobel:

There's one single reason why I sometimes prefer even small code pieces
in attachments, despite the fact that I usually like to read them
inline: If there is a lone ">>" (which happens quite often in LilyPond
code, for obvious reasons), it messes up with many mail client's idea of
what a quote is.


Thunderbird sees a quote in a quote here, for example. But if you select 
and copy the text, this is copied as >> so no problem here ;) Maybe 
other clients ‘think’ the same way?


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Re: Replying to posts

[Werner LEMBERG]

>> . Use the `reply-to-all' button so that the discussion stays on the
>>   list.  It is not helpful if answers are suddenly sent to
>>   individuals only.  Additionally, it helps to properly build up
>>   e-mail threads.
> 
> Remove all non-list addresses from the reply list.

No.  Sometimes, people write to the list who aren't subscribed, and
the list owner (or some automatic algorithm) accepts the mail; in such
cases the OP e-mail address should stay.  This is probably one of the
most trivial tasks an e-mail program should be able to handle, namely
to display only one copy if there are multiple instances.

I sometimes even insert a list member's e-mail address to the `CC' or
`To' field to indicate that he or she is the primary recipient.

>>   . Use hard line breaks to have a line length of less than 80
>> characters.
>>   . Avoid tab characters.
> 
> In LilyPond source, ...

No, in e-mail also.  IMHO, it greatly enhances readability if all
lines of an e-mail are short, and if there are no tabs.


Werner

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Re: Replying to posts

[Alexander Kobel]

On 2016-04-29 12:30, Urs Liska wrote:

Am 29.04.2016 um 12:28 schrieb Federico Bruni:

Il giorno ven 29 apr 2016 alle 10:50, Simon Albrecht
 ha scritto:

On 29.04.2016 10:11, Johan Vromans wrote:



. Provide a minimal working example (or a minimal not-working
  example).  The stress lies on *minimal*.  This shows us that you
  have at least tried to look into the manual before asking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_Working_Example

Do not include the example in the text, but attach it to the message.


That’s not always sensible or necessary. If the e-mail is plain text
anyway, then there’s little problem with inline code.


I think that inline minimal examples are much better:

- you can easily comment its contents in the reply
- in the archives they appear immediately and you can read them
quickly instead of downloading .bin files



I think this needs some clarification:

Inserting *code* examples within the text is usually very good for
communication. I think the suggested ban on inline examples referred to
*images*


There's one single reason why I sometimes prefer even small code pieces 
in attachments, despite the fact that I usually like to read them 
inline: If there is a lone ">>" (which happens quite often in LilyPond 
code, for obvious reasons), it messes up with many mail client's idea of 
what a quote is. I know, it's well-specified that such a construct can 
be escaped with whitespace at the beginning of the line, but not every 
client implements that.


So my relaxed suggestion is: feel free to write small code pieces 
inline, but if you do so, place no ">>" on lines of themselves. As if 
anyone (including myself) were to remember that...



Best,
Alexander

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Re: Replying to posts

[Federico Bruni]

Il giorno ven 29 apr 2016 alle 12:59, Johan Vromans 
 ha scritto:
 There's some Lilypond questions on the tex StackExchange forum, and 
you'll

 find some on the StackOverflow too.


I have a very strong preference for one single place where all 
information

lives. And I'm very happy with this mailing list.


I think that everybody should decide freely. I feel the same that was 
expressed here:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2014-12/msg00413.html



The last time I tried to ask a question on StackWhatever I was 
(un)kindly
directed to another sub-StackWhatever, and then to another, and to 
another,

so I just gave up.


What happened once doesn't mean anything. Most of people like Q 
sites. Personally I think that they are way more effective than mailing 
lists for helping and get help.


Anyway, one might also argue about the idea of using some third-party 
service. If some lilypond user set up a nice forum (as for example¹) I 
would be able to follow only what I'm interested in. Right now I delete 
90% of emails in this list without even reading them. But filtering is 
time consuming and annoying and I'll have to quit this list sooner or 
later.


You must be very motivated and involved to stay in an medium/high 
volume mailing list like this one. On the other hand Q allows more 
participation from "free riders" or "seldom helpers".


¹ https://discuss.gohugo.io/




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Re: Replying to posts

[Chris Yate]

On 29 April 2016 at 11:59, Johan Vromans  wrote:
>
> I have a very strong preference for one single place where all information
> lives. And I'm very happy with this mailing list.

Yes, although I personally find StackOverflow a far better way of
asking, answering and recalling questions, there's a heap of history
here that's very valuable.

> The last time I tried to ask a question on StackWhatever I was (un)kindly
> directed to another sub-StackWhatever, and then to another, and to another,
> so I just gave up.

Well, From reading StackOverflow a **lot** for work purposes, that's
usually because the question's in the wrong forum (or at least someone
thinks it is).

One downside to SO is that there are people who take great pleasure in
closing questions that "aren't a proper question", and so on. It's
better than the traditional kind of forum for coding questions (which
is 95% of this list). Whether it's better than a mailing list is a
different argument.

Whilst a Lilypond SO forum would be more publicly available than this
list, it wouldn't be as technically accessible to all concerned
(particularly the terminal window fans! :-) ).

However, I think it could only make Lilypond more accessible to the
general user. Does anyone actively object to the idea of having one?

cheers,

Chris

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Re: Replying to posts

[Alberto Simões]

On 29/04/2016 11:59, Johan Vromans wrote:

>There's some Lilypond questions on the tex StackExchange forum, and you'll
>find some on the StackOverflow too.

I have a very strong preference for one single place where all information
lives. And I'm very happy with this mailing list.

+1 for good old mailing lists.
ambs
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Re: Replying to posts

[Johan Vromans]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:45:12 +0100
Chris Yate  wrote:

> There's some Lilypond questions on the tex StackExchange forum, and you'll
> find some on the StackOverflow too. 

I have a very strong preference for one single place where all information
lives. And I'm very happy with this mailing list.

The last time I tried to ask a question on StackWhatever I was (un)kindly
directed to another sub-StackWhatever, and then to another, and to another,
so I just gave up.

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Re: Replying to posts

[Johan Vromans]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 20:20:12 +1000
Andrew Bernard  wrote:

> > ... but since [David] is the list owner he's to decide.  
> 
> Is he? We do not know.

An other branch of this discussion tree indicates so.

> Werner’s guidelines are only one personal view and suggestion, and
> they have not been ‘voted on’ or necessarily accepted yet.

Since David is the one doing (most of) the hard work, I assign him
superpowers to unilaterally decide.

> To put my money where my mouth is I am prepared to make a draft
> recommendation for people to examine. An RFC, no less. :-)

That is, of course, always a good idea. 

-- Johan

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Re: Replying to posts

[Federico Bruni]

Il giorno ven 29 apr 2016 alle 12:20, Andrew Bernard 
 ha scritto:

I wonder if we should consider
using some forum type software for lilypond matters? The mailing list
has a flat structure, and I have long thought that we ought to have a
separate area for Scheme topics, Guile topics, installation issues,
engraving questions, and so on and so forth. Such sub specialities
which are not of interest to all users could have their own forum
topic area. Not a totally crazy idea. And dear me people could use
Markdown to format HTML posts. The forum could have the forum
guidelines posted permanently as per normal forum software. As to the
standard list question who would do the work, I would be happy to.


If you are thinking about using tools like stackexchange, this has been 
discussed before several times. See for example:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2014-12/msg00404.html




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Re: Replying to posts

[Chris Yate]

On 29 April 2016 at 11:20, Andrew Bernard  wrote:
>
> Since this is the longest thread in recent memory - interesting
> because it is a meta-thread really - I wonder if we should consider
> using some forum type software for lilypond matters?

There's some Lilypond questions on the tex StackExchange forum, and you'll
find some on the StackOverflow too. But that is a *very* good
alternative medium for what we do here. It's also easily searchable
when you're looking for answers (better than the mailing lists).

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Re: Replying to posts

[Johan Vromans]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:30:25 +0200
Urs Liska  wrote:

> I think this needs some clarification:
> 
> Inserting *code* examples within the text is usually very good for
> communication. I think the suggested ban on inline examples referred to
> *images*

Too often I encounter code samples in mail bodies that have been mangled by
mailers. Sending sources as attachment is (usually) fail safe.

Of course, one can cite parts of the code samples in the message to clarify
the problems.

-- Johan

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Re: Replying to posts

[Urs Liska]

Am 29.04.2016 um 12:28 schrieb Federico Bruni:
> Il giorno ven 29 apr 2016 alle 10:50, Simon Albrecht
>  ha scritto:
>> On 29.04.2016 10:11, Johan Vromans wrote:
>> >
>> >>. Provide a minimal working example (or a minimal not-working
>> >>  example).  The stress lies on *minimal*.  This shows us that you
>> >>  have at least tried to look into the manual before asking.
>> >>
>> >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_Working_Example
>> > Do not include the example in the text, but attach it to the message.
>>
>> That’s not always sensible or necessary. If the e-mail is plain text
>> anyway, then there’s little problem with inline code.
>
> I think that inline minimal examples are much better:
>
> - you can easily comment its contents in the reply
> - in the archives they appear immediately and you can read them
> quickly instead of downloading .bin files
>

I think this needs some clarification:

Inserting *code* examples within the text is usually very good for
communication. I think the suggested ban on inline examples referred to
*images*

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Re: Replying to posts

[Federico Bruni]

Il giorno ven 29 apr 2016 alle 10:50, Simon Albrecht 
 ha scritto:

On 29.04.2016 10:11, Johan Vromans wrote:
>
>>. Provide a minimal working example (or a minimal not-working
>>  example).  The stress lies on *minimal*.  This shows us that 
you

>>  have at least tried to look into the manual before asking.
>>
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_Working_Example
> Do not include the example in the text, but attach it to the 
message.


That’s not always sensible or necessary. If the e-mail is plain text
anyway, then there’s little problem with inline code.


I think that inline minimal examples are much better:

- you can easily comment its contents in the reply
- in the archives they appear immediately and you can read them quickly 
instead of downloading .bin files





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Re: Replying to posts

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Johan,

On 29 April 2016 at 18:11, Johan Vromans  wrote:

> Well done. Now if David would be so kind to add this as the new subcribers
> welcome message. I have some remarks, but since he is the list owner he's
> to decide.

Is he? We do not know.

> Well done, Werner!
>

Werner’s guidelines are only one personal view and suggestion, and
they have not been ‘voted on’ or necessarily accepted yet. I for one
think a blend of the Debian mailing lists code of conduct, with
additions for lilypond specifics such as MWE’s, non-inline image
posting, what to do with code fragments, how to reply to digests and
so on is in order.

To put my money where my mouth is I am prepared to make a draft
recommendation for people to examine. An RFC, no less. :-)

Since this is the longest thread in recent memory - interesting
because it is a meta-thread really - I wonder if we should consider
using some forum type software for lilypond matters? The mailing list
has a flat structure, and I have long thought that we ought to have a
separate area for Scheme topics, Guile topics, installation issues,
engraving questions, and so on and so forth. Such sub specialities
which are not of interest to all users could have their own forum
topic area. Not a totally crazy idea. And dear me people could use
Markdown to format HTML posts. The forum could have the forum
guidelines posted permanently as per normal forum software. As to the
standard list question who would do the work, I would be happy to.

Andrew

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Re: Replying to posts

[Urs Liska]

Am 29.04.2016 um 10:11 schrieb Johan Vromans:
>>   . Use the `reply-to-all' button so that the discussion stays on the
>> > list.  It is not helpful if answers are suddenly sent to
>> > individuals only.  Additionally, it helps to properly build up
>> > e-mail threads.
> Remove all non-list addresses from the reply list.
>
Or use the 'reply-to-list' function if your email client supports it.
That will reply *only* to the list
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Re: Replying to posts

[Simon Albrecht]

On 29.04.2016 10:11, Johan Vromans wrote:



   . Provide a minimal working example (or a minimal not-working
 example).  The stress lies on *minimal*.  This shows us that you
 have at least tried to look into the manual before asking.

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_Working_Example

Do not include the example in the text, but attach it to the message.


That’s not always sensible or necessary. If the e-mail is plain text 
anyway, then there’s little problem with inline code.


Best, Simon

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Re: Replying to posts

[Michael Hendry]

> On 29 Apr 2016, at 06:26, Tim McNamara  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 28, 2016, at 11:45 PM, Werner LEMBERG  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> Reading your admonition to "don't use top-posting," I tried to
>>> locate the command in Outlook 2013 that sets this option as default.
>> 
>> What about this?
>> 
>> http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/
>> 
>> I'm not an outlook user, but this looks quite promising (and is
>> actively maintained)!
> 
> This is or used to be available for Mac as well, although the Mac Mail.app 
> now has settings to address most of this without adding a plug-in.  QuoteFix 
> used to break some other things on the Mac.

I use Quotefix on my Mac (El Capitan) and haven’t yet found out how to get Mac 
Mail to do the same magic - please tell me how to do it.

I don’t think there’s an equivalent for iPads and iPhones, which are part of 
the top-posting include-everything conspiracy…

Michael


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Re: Replying to posts

[David Kastrup]

Werner LEMBERG  writes:

> [David, please have a look to this e-mail.]
>
>
>> > Of course there is a list owner.
>>
>> Who, may one ask?  Why are they taking no interest in this extensive
>> discussion?
>
> Ah, bad wording of mine.  `List owner' is too big a word; the list was
> automatically created for the lilypond team by the Savannah people;
> there are only administrators who have access rights.  Looking into
>
>   https://savannah.gnu.org/projects/lilypond
>
> I think the following people have the right to manage e-mail list
> issues.
>
>   Jan Nieuwenhuizen
>   Han-Wen Nienhuys
>   Graham Percival
>   David Kastrup
>
> Jan, Han-Wen, and Graham are no longer active most of the time.  So we
> only have David.
>
> Hmm.  David, it's really only you who is active and has access to the
> mailing list as an administrator?

Mailing lists are administered separately from Savannah accounts as far
as I know.  No idea who is currently registered for that, probably
Graham.

Try sending a mail to lilypond-user-owner or something like that and see
who replies.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Replying to posts

[Johan Vromans]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 06:05:49 +0200 (CEST)
Werner LEMBERG  wrote:

> In general, the list netiquette is quite simple.  Here's a small,
> probably incomplete list.

Well done. Now if David would be so kind to add this as the new subcribers
welcome message. I have some remarks, but since he is the list owner he's
to decide.

>   . If you reply, properly cite to what you reply – and trim the
> e-mail so that everything you are not replying to gets removed.

Actually, this rule is broken many times more than the HTML rule :)

>   . Use the `reply-to-all' button so that the discussion stays on the
> list.  It is not helpful if answers are suddenly sent to
> individuals only.  Additionally, it helps to properly build up
> e-mail threads.

Remove all non-list addresses from the reply list.

>   . Provide a minimal working example (or a minimal not-working
> example).  The stress lies on *minimal*.  This shows us that you
> have at least tried to look into the manual before asking.
> 
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_Working_Example

Do not include the example in the text, but attach it to the message.

> Additionally, especially with lilypond, a picture often says more
> than thousand words, so it is incredibly helpful if you attach a
> small PNG image also – don't use the BMP image format, by the way!

Too strong.. "small PNG or JPG image also."

>   . Use hard line breaks to have a line length of less than 80
> characters.
>   . Avoid tab characters.

In LilyPond source, ...

Well done, Werner!

-- Johan

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Re: Replying to posts

[Werner LEMBERG]

From: Werner LEMBERG <w...@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Replying to posts
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 07:19:48 +0200 (CEST)

> 
>>> What about this?
>>>
>>>   http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/
>>>
>>> I'm not an outlook user, but this looks quite promising (and is
>>> actively maintained)!
>>
>> Really? Runs on NT4 up to XP. Support up to Outlook 2003. That's
>> moribund by any standard, surely?
> 
> Oops!  I've misread 2006 for 2016 :-)  Sorry.

What about this, then.

  http://www.grzegorz.net/oe/oept.php

It claims to work up to Windows 7.


Werner

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Re: Replying to posts

[Tim McNamara]

> On Apr 28, 2016, at 11:45 PM, Werner LEMBERG  wrote:
> 
> 
>> Reading your admonition to "don't use top-posting," I tried to
>> locate the command in Outlook 2013 that sets this option as default.
> 
> What about this?
> 
>  http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/
> 
> I'm not an outlook user, but this looks quite promising (and is
> actively maintained)!

This is or used to be available for Mac as well, although the Mac Mail.app now 
has settings to address most of this without adding a plug-in.  QuoteFix used 
to break some other things on the Mac.

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Re: Replying to posts

[mskala]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
> > contributors in my local filtering rules, and seriously consider
> > both exiting the list and ceasing to use LilyPond entirely.
>
> Exiting the list I can understand, but ceasing to use?  Tsk, tsk,
> tsk :-)

If I were going to only ever use the software all by myself, never upgrade
it, and never need help, then I'd just ignore the list.  But the ability
to get help and participate in a user community is really a feature of the
software and factors into the decision to use it or not.  It'd also be
more along the lines of "last straw" than a *sole* reason to stop using
LilyPond.  My main reason would be the fact that LilyPond evaluates
music into inactive data as soon as it's parsed, which means anything like
a conditional has to be implemented outside the music.

-- 
Matthew Skala
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RE: Replying to posts

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Werner, 

Thank you for your reply and the link. Outlook-quotefix has been test only
for Outlook versions prior to 2007. I have 2013.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: werner.lemb...@gmx.de [mailto:werner.lemb...@gmx.de] On Behalf Of
Werner LEMBERG
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 9:45 PM
To: carsonm...@ca.rr.com
Cc: andrew.bern...@gmail.com; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Replying to posts


> Reading your admonition to "don't use top-posting," I tried to locate 
> the command in Outlook 2013 that sets this option as default.

What about this?

  http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/

I'm not an outlook user, but this looks quite promising (and is actively
maintained)!


Werner


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Re: Replying to posts

[Werner LEMBERG]

>> What about this?
>>
>>   http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/
>>
>> I'm not an outlook user, but this looks quite promising (and is
>> actively maintained)!
>
> Really? Runs on NT4 up to XP. Support up to Outlook 2003. That's
> moribund by any standard, surely?

Oops!  I've misread 2006 for 2016 :-)  Sorry.

Isn't there *really* no easy way to avoid top-posting with Outlook?

At least Outlook 2013 has the option

  Use inline replies when replying or forwarding

according to

  
http://www.tech-recipes.com/rx/30892/outlook-2013-disable-the-inline-reply-feature/

This site explains how to get back to top-posting, BTW :-)


Werner

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Re: Replying to posts

[DJF]

On Apr 29, 2016, at 12:20 AM, Andrew Bernard  wrote:
> 
> Hi Tim,
> 
> On 29 April 2016 at 13:48, Tim McNamara  wrote:
> 
>> Most mailing lists send a copy of the rules with the "welcome e-mail" that 
>> is sent someone subscribes to the list.  It's been long enough that I don't 
>> remember what the one I received said on the topic.
> 
> I just checked with a new subscription. No code or guidelines or hints
> are sent to new subscribers.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

It seems that all messages sent to the list have an automatic footer, as above. 
Couldn’t a line simply be added to that with something like this: Want to send 
a message to this list? Read these guidelines first: 

—
Dan
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Re: Replying to posts

[Werner LEMBERG]

>>   . Stay polite and avoid ad-hominem attacks.
> 
> Is that a real rule, or only what we wish were a rule?

Actively managing a mailing list is work.  AFAIK, no-one is taking
care of that, see my other mail.

So yes, currently it is a wish.

> I've seldom seen more ad hominem on any list than I routinely see on
> this one, and it has caused me to both block a couple of regular
> contributors in my local filtering rules, and seriously consider
> both exiting the list and ceasing to use LilyPond entirely.

Exiting the list I can understand, but ceasing to use?  Tsk, tsk,
tsk :-)

> As a matter of *practice*, one rule of this list seems to be "ad
> hominem is a perfectly legitimate way of making points, if you have
> a loud voice."

I don't get this impression.


Werner
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Re: Replying to posts

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Werner,

On 29 April 2016 at 14:45, Werner LEMBERG  wrote:
>
> What about this?
>
>   http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/
>
> I'm not an outlook user, but this looks quite promising (and is
> actively maintained)!
>

Really? Runs on NT4 up to XP. Support up to Outlook 2003. That's
moribund by any standard, surely?

Andrew

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Re: Replying to posts

[Werner LEMBERG]

[David, please have a look to this e-mail.]


> > Of course there is a list owner.
>
> Who, may one ask?  Why are they taking no interest in this extensive
> discussion?

Ah, bad wording of mine.  `List owner' is too big a word; the list was
automatically created for the lilypond team by the Savannah people;
there are only administrators who have access rights.  Looking into

  https://savannah.gnu.org/projects/lilypond

I think the following people have the right to manage e-mail list
issues.

  Jan Nieuwenhuizen
  Han-Wen Nienhuys
  Graham Percival
  David Kastrup

Jan, Han-Wen, and Graham are no longer active most of the time.  So we
only have David.

Hmm.  David, it's really only you who is active and has access to the
mailing list as an administrator?

> I just checked with a new subscription. No code or guidelines or
> hints are sent to new subscribers.

Indeed, this should be added.


Werner

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Re: Replying to posts

[mskala]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
>   . Stay polite and avoid ad-hominem attacks.

Is that a real rule, or only what we wish were a rule?  I've seldom seen
more ad hominem on any list than I routinely see on this one, and it has
caused me to both block a couple of regular contributors in my local
filtering rules, and seriously consider both exiting the list and ceasing
to use LilyPond entirely.  I think a little bit more actual enforcement of
"no ad hominem" might improve things a lot, but strong censure of ad
hominem tactics has not happened, and I see strong reasons why it's
unlikely to happen in the future.

As a matter of *practice*, one rule of this list seems to be "ad hominem
is a perfectly legitimate way of making points, if you have a loud voice."

We also seem to have a rule of tolerating tantrums and threats.

-- 
Matthew Skala
msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca People before principles.
http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/

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Re: Replying to posts

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Mark,

The issue of top posting surely in and of itself generates massive
flame wars. It is by no means agreed upon. Business (and so Outlook)
generally uses top posting. Internet groups often do not.

Werner's list is just a suggestion. There's no rule about top, bottom,
or interleaved posting on the list. As yet.

>From wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style

"While each online community differs on which styles are appropriate
or acceptable, within some communities the use of the "wrong" method
risks being seen as a breach of netiquette, and can provoke vehement
response from community regulars."

We don't have a right or a wrong method.

For me, it's not significant. More important is providing enough
context for a reply to be made sense of.

Andrew


On 29 April 2016 at 14:24, Mark Stephen Mrotek  wrote:
> Werner Lemberg,
>
> Reading your admonition to "don't use top-posting," I tried to locate the 
> command in Outlook 2013 that sets this option as default.
> I was unable to do so.
> Knowing this can you forgive my "top-posting?"
> Can you, or anyone else, direct me?

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Re: Replying to posts

[Werner LEMBERG]

> Reading your admonition to "don't use top-posting," I tried to
> locate the command in Outlook 2013 that sets this option as default.

What about this?

  http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/

I'm not an outlook user, but this looks quite promising (and is
actively maintained)!


Werner

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RE: Replying to posts

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Werner Lemberg,

Reading your admonition to "don't use top-posting," I tried to locate the 
command in Outlook 2013 that sets this option as default.
I was unable to do so.
Knowing this can you forgive my "top-posting?"
Can you, or anyone else, direct me?
Thank you for your kind attention.

Mark Stephen Mrotek


-Original Message-
From: lilypond-user [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] 
On Behalf Of Werner LEMBERG
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 9:06 PM
To: andrew.bern...@gmail.com
Cc: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Replying to posts


> As far as I know this particular list does not have a list owner, and 
> there are no published rules.

Of course there is a list owner.  However, up to now there wasn't a single 
person who stomped our nuts too hard, so to say, forcing us to banning him or 
her from the list.

In general, the list netiquette is quite simple.  Here's a small, probably 
incomplete list.

  . Use plain text, not HTML.

  . Don't use top-posting.

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top-posting

  . Use UTF-8 encoding.


  . If you reply, properly cite to what you reply – and trim the
e-mail so that everything you are not replying to gets removed.
Obviously, your reply should be *below* the cited text.

  . Use the `reply-to-all' button so that the discussion stays on the
list.  It is not helpful if answers are suddenly sent to
individuals only.  Additionally, it helps to properly build up
e-mail threads.

  . Don't use inline images, use simple attachments instead.

  . Stay polite and avoid ad-hominem attacks.

  . Provide a minimal working example (or a minimal not-working
example).  The stress lies on *minimal*.  This shows us that you
have at least tried to look into the manual before asking.

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_Working_Example

Additionally, especially with lilypond, a picture often says more
than thousand words, so it is incredibly helpful if you attach a
small PNG image also – don't use the BMP image format, by the way!

  . Don't hi-jack an e-mail thread.  Start a new thread instead if you
want to discuss something new.  This also holds if a discussion is
drifting too much from its original topic.

  . If you have a question, try to formulate it as concise as
possible.  This increases your chances to get a quick reply.

  . Expect a turn-around of at least 48 hours for an answer.  This is
a list of volunteers, not a paid hotline.  If you don't get a
reply, there might be at least reasons.

  . Your request is too broad.  After two days or so, try to
reformulate and be more concise, probably adding code,
examples, images, etc.

  . Nobody knows the answer.

  . Use hard line breaks to have a line length of less than 80
characters.

  . Avoid tab characters.


  Werner
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Re: Replying to posts

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Tim,

On 29 April 2016 at 13:48, Tim McNamara  wrote:

> Most mailing lists send a copy of the rules with the "welcome e-mail" that is 
> sent someone subscribes to the list.  It's been long enough that I don't 
> remember what the one I received said on the topic.

I just checked with a new subscription. No code or guidelines or hints
are sent to new subscribers.

Andrew

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Re: Replying to posts

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Werner,

On 29 April 2016 at 14:05, Werner LEMBERG  wrote:
>
>> As far as I know this particular list does not have a list owner,
>> and there are no published rules.
>
> Of course there is a list owner.

Who, may one ask? Why are they taking no interest in this extensive discussion?


> In general, the list netiquette is quite simple.  Here's a small,
> probably incomplete list.

My point is that posting this here, while a positive contribution and
all worth points,  is futile. No new users will find it. It is soon
lost. People won't search the archives to find it, and would not know
what seaerch terms to use.

The Debian code of conduct seems worthy of adoption.

Whatever may get taken up, if anything, couldn't it go on the
Community web page for lilypond.org, or on the GNU mailing list page?
Mr List Owner, where art thou?


Andrew

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Re: Replying to posts

[Werner LEMBERG]

> As far as I know this particular list does not have a list owner,
> and there are no published rules.

Of course there is a list owner.  However, up to now there wasn't a
single person who stomped our nuts too hard, so to say, forcing us to
banning him or her from the list.

In general, the list netiquette is quite simple.  Here's a small,
probably incomplete list.

  . Use plain text, not HTML.

  . Don't use top-posting.

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top-posting

  . Use UTF-8 encoding.

  . If you reply, properly cite to what you reply – and trim the
e-mail so that everything you are not replying to gets removed.
Obviously, your reply should be *below* the cited text.

  . Use the `reply-to-all' button so that the discussion stays on the
list.  It is not helpful if answers are suddenly sent to
individuals only.  Additionally, it helps to properly build up
e-mail threads.

  . Don't use inline images, use simple attachments instead.

  . Stay polite and avoid ad-hominem attacks.

  . Provide a minimal working example (or a minimal not-working
example).  The stress lies on *minimal*.  This shows us that you
have at least tried to look into the manual before asking.

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_Working_Example

Additionally, especially with lilypond, a picture often says more
than thousand words, so it is incredibly helpful if you attach a
small PNG image also – don't use the BMP image format, by the way!

  . Don't hi-jack an e-mail thread.  Start a new thread instead if you
want to discuss something new.  This also holds if a discussion is
drifting too much from its original topic.

  . If you have a question, try to formulate it as concise as
possible.  This increases your chances to get a quick reply.

  . Expect a turn-around of at least 48 hours for an answer.  This is
a list of volunteers, not a paid hotline.  If you don't get a
reply, there might be at least reasons.

  . Your request is too broad.  After two days or so, try to
reformulate and be more concise, probably adding code,
examples, images, etc.

  . Nobody knows the answer.

  . Use hard line breaks to have a line length of less than 80
characters.

  . Avoid tab characters.


  Werner
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Re: Replying to posts

[Tim McNamara]

> On Apr 28, 2016, at 9:37 PM, Andrew Bernard  wrote:
> 
> The whole reason I began this thread was to ask if there may be some
> simple way we could post the code of conduct/guidelines/policy for the
> mailing list so that people could be made aware of it. Nobody has
> addressed that simple point.
> 
> The problem with implicit rules is that they are hidden. Each person
> has to discover them by themselves, taking time and effort to do so,
> and making mistakes along the way, when a simple paragraph of explicit
> rules eliminates all ambiguity.
> 
> Debian has dozens of mailing lists. They state a clear policy here:
> 
> https://www.debian.org/MailingLists
> 
> If they can do it, why can't we?
> 
> [I can't help noting that the Debian mailing lists explicitly state
> that plain text only is to be used.]
> 
>> There are many web pages about (other) mailing lists etiquette.
> 
> Indeed. We ought to have one.

Most mailing lists send a copy of the rules with the "welcome e-mail" that is 
sent someone subscribes to the list.  It's been long enough that I don't 
remember what the one I received said on the topic.  

This mailing list has a quirk that newbies should be made aware of, which is 
that (unlike any other mailing list to which I belong) the Reply-To: header is 
not set to the list.

The plain text standard should be made explicit with either directions for how 
to do that or links to directions about how to do that for the most common mail 
applications (Outlook, Google Mac, the Mac Mail.app and iOS mail app, etc.).

And I also apologize to the list members that my public and private appeals for 
pragmatism in dealing with the mail format issue seem to have strongly 
contributed to David Kastrup's exit from the user list.  That was not my intent.



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Re: Replying to posts

[Andrew Bernard]

On 29 April 2016 at 12:18, Gilles  wrote:

> People here have given reasons that can translate into (implicit) rules.
> Another (meta-)rule is to behave the same way as others do (e.g. looking
> at the archives could give hints as to what is the norm).


The whole reason I began this thread was to ask if there may be some
simple way we could post the code of conduct/guidelines/policy for the
mailing list so that people could be made aware of it. Nobody has
addressed that simple point.

The problem with implicit rules is that they are hidden. Each person
has to discover them by themselves, taking time and effort to do so,
and making mistakes along the way, when a simple paragraph of explicit
rules eliminates all ambiguity.

Debian has dozens of mailing lists. They state a clear policy here:

https://www.debian.org/MailingLists

If they can do it, why can't we?

[I can't help noting that the Debian mailing lists explicitly state
that plain text only is to be used.]



> There are many web pages about (other) mailing lists etiquette.

Indeed. We ought to have one.

Andrew

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Re: Replying to posts

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Gilles,

I don't think there is any such for this list. Is there?

Andrew


On 29 April 2016 at 12:18, Gilles  wrote:
>
> List owner/adminstrator/moderator: ie. someone who has the privilege to
> unsubscribe other people.
>

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Re: Replying to posts

[Gilles]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 10:40:09 +1000, Andrew Bernard wrote:

Hi Gilles,

As far as I know this particular list does not have a list owner, and
there are no published rules.


List owner/adminstrator/moderator: ie. someone who has the privilege to
unsubscribe other people.

People here have given reasons that can translate into (implicit) 
rules.
Another (meta-)rule is to behave the same way as others do (e.g. 
looking

at the archives could give hints as to what is the norm).
There are many web pages about (other) mailing lists etiquette.

Regards,
Gilles




Andrew





On 27/04/2016, 10:05 PM, "lilypond-user on behalf of Gilles"
 wrote:


If, out of lazyness, the latter plainly ignore the rules aimed at
conveying more information than noise, the list owner should consider
banning them, rather than risk putting off those who follow the 
rules.



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Re: Replying to posts

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Gilles,

As far as I know this particular list does not have a list owner, and there are 
no published rules.

Andrew





On 27/04/2016, 10:05 PM, "lilypond-user on behalf of Gilles" 
 wrote:

>If, out of lazyness, the latter plainly ignore the rules aimed at
>conveying more information than noise, the list owner should consider
>banning them, rather than risk putting off those who follow the rules.


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Re: Replying to posts

[Rafael Ramirez Morales]

This thread gets better and better!

I'm subscribed to 2 maling lists in gnu.org: lilypond & org-mode...

At this point in time I cannot distinguish to which of the two this
thread belongs to.

“Organize your life in plain text!”
“Organize your music in plain text!”

Cheers.

On 28 April 2016 at 16:18, Johan Vromans  wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:43:34 +0100
> Steve Downes  wrote:
>
>> 4) it doesn't go out of date due to format change
>
> Although not related to email per se, this is the strongest argument to
> always use the simplest data format that can represent the information.
>
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Re: Replying to posts

[Anthonys Lists]

On 28/04/2016 15:18, Johan Vromans wrote:

On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:43:34 +0100
Steve Downes  wrote:


4) it doesn't go out of date due to format change

Although not related to email per se, this is the strongest argument to
always use the simplest data format that can represent the information.



5) It doesn't corrupt your formatting

Which is why HTML is considered "not fit for purpose" (as indeed 
Thunderbird often is ...) on many development lists.


Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Replying to posts

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi,

> for *my* use case, it probably really IS NOT an improvement!
> I've never used it, never tried it, never had any desire to.

That was me — almost verbatim — about two years ago.
Now I’m kicking myself for having waited so long.

YMMV.

Best,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Replying to posts

[Johan Vromans]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:43:34 +0100
Steve Downes  wrote:

> 4) it doesn't go out of date due to format change

Although not related to email per se, this is the strongest argument to
always use the simplest data format that can represent the information.

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Re: Replying to posts

[Carl Sorensen]

On 4/28/16 6:26 AM, "Wols Lists"  wrote:

>On 28/04/16 12:43, Chris Yate wrote:
>>
>> 
>> "Shiny" isn't necessarily "improved" but they're not mutually
>> exclusive. Would you suggest Frescobaldi is *not* a big improvement in
>> the User Interface for Lilypond development?
>> 
>Horses for courses - if you like it, great.
>
>But actually, for *my* use case, it probably really IS NOT an
>improvement! I've never used it, never tried it, never had any desire
>to. Can you use it to enter a score, and then get it to generate all the
>individual parts for you?

Well, in the Choir templates I use, it's really easy to get a full score,
a piano accompaniment, piano accompaniment plus choir reduction (useful
for the pianist who wants fewer page turns but needs to provide both the
accompaniment and parts during rehearsal), combined midi, and individual
midi parts.  It would require only a minor change (of a few minutes) to
provide individual voice parts as well.

It doesn't work like make, and only make the parts I ask for when I
compile.  Instead, it makes them all.  But that might be a plus because
they are all in synch now.

The biggest drawback I see to Frescobaldi is that it has its own editing
syntax, so I can't use the vi commands that I'm so used to in programming.
 But that drawback is not enough to keep me from using it.  I've cut my
score creation time in less than half by using Frescobaldi.

But I consider Frescobaldi to be a tool that helps use LilyPond.  I value
the independent nature of LilyPond, because of the various use cases it
provides (e.g. Denemo).  So I would not want LilyPond to be subsumed by
Frescobaldi.  So I don't consider Frescobaldi to be an improvement in
LilyPond.  If Frescobaldi tried to get in the way of LilyPond (like Denemo
does), I wouldn't use it at all.  I want to be able to access pure
LilyPond.

Thanks,

Carl




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Re: Replying to posts

[Steve Downes]

I cannot understand why anybody uses html (except their software point
them at it) I decided 20 years ago when word processors were coming in
with various formats that I would always use plain text unless there
was a strong reason not to because:-

1) it took less storage
2) it travelled faster
3) any recipient can open it & read it in any reasonable software
4) it doesn't go out of date due to format change

Nearly every email I receive gains nothing from being formatted HTML or word 
processor of some sort.

Steve

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:43:13PM +0100, Chris Yate wrote:
> On 27 April 2016 at 19:25, Anthonys Lists  wrote:
> >
> > And the reality is, most people HERE, including the most important ones! 
> > use simple, plain-text, email clients.
> > There's a reason why Outlook Lusers are not welcome on most mailing lists, 
> > and that's because the result is incomprehensible, pretty fast!
> >
> > Why is it that you get so many idiots who think that "ooh, shiny" is the 
> > same as "new, improved".
> > Lilypond is not aimed at the "ooh shiny" brigade, so if you want to be part 
> > of that, please go somewhere else ...
> 
> Respectfully, I disagree. Having a shiny AND functional tool (no smut
> here, I'm British) is perfectly possible, and wanting to use one
> doesn't make you a magpie. It's snobbery -- you might say 'inverted'
> snobbery -- to suggest so.
> 
> "Shiny" isn't necessarily "improved" but they're not mutually
> exclusive. Would you suggest Frescobaldi is *not* a big improvement in
> the User Interface for Lilypond development?
> 
> Chris
> 
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Re: Replying to posts

[Urs Liska]

Am 28. April 2016 14:08:41 MESZ, schrieb Chris Yate :
>On 28 Apr 2016 13:07, "Werner LEMBERG"  wrote:
>>
>>
>> > Would you suggest Frescobaldi is *not* a big improvement in the
>User
>> > Interface for Lilypond development?
>>
>> No, it isn't.  It is a big improvement for *using* lilypond (well,
>for
>> all those guys and ladies who like IDEs), but for lilypond
>> *development* you certainly don't need it.
>>
>> Werner
>
>Subtle point well made.
>

Well, it's a matter of parenthesizing:

the (User Interface for Lilypond) development

vs.

the (User Interface) for (Lilypond development)

;-)

>Cheers! Chris
>
>
>
>
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Re: Replying to posts

[Wols Lists]

On 28/04/16 12:43, Chris Yate wrote:
> On 27 April 2016 at 19:25, Anthonys Lists  wrote:
>>
>> And the reality is, most people HERE, including the most important ones! use 
>> simple, plain-text, email clients.
>> There's a reason why Outlook Lusers are not welcome on most mailing lists, 
>> and that's because the result is incomprehensible, pretty fast!
>>
>> Why is it that you get so many idiots who think that "ooh, shiny" is the 
>> same as "new, improved".
>> Lilypond is not aimed at the "ooh shiny" brigade, so if you want to be part 
>> of that, please go somewhere else ...
> 
> Respectfully, I disagree. Having a shiny AND functional tool (no smut
> here, I'm British) is perfectly possible, and wanting to use one
> doesn't make you a magpie. It's snobbery -- you might say 'inverted'
> snobbery -- to suggest so.
> 
> "Shiny" isn't necessarily "improved" but they're not mutually
> exclusive. Would you suggest Frescobaldi is *not* a big improvement in
> the User Interface for Lilypond development?
> 
Horses for courses - if you like it, great.

But actually, for *my* use case, it probably really IS NOT an
improvement! I've never used it, never tried it, never had any desire
to. Can you use it to enter a score, and then get it to generate all the
individual parts for you?

"Q. What's the main reason for having a window manager?
"A. It means I can have multiple text terminals open simultaneously!"

For some people, like me, that is the way my brain is wired.

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Replying to posts

[Werner LEMBERG]

> For that, you want Visual Studio...

Pfft.  You are probably not aware that it is not possible to compile
lilypond under Windows currently...

It would be great if you could improve that.


Werner

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Re: Replying to posts

[Chris Yate]

On 28 Apr 2016 13:07, "Werner LEMBERG"  wrote:
>
>
> > Would you suggest Frescobaldi is *not* a big improvement in the User
> > Interface for Lilypond development?
>
> No, it isn't.  It is a big improvement for *using* lilypond (well, for
> all those guys and ladies who like IDEs), but for lilypond
> *development* you certainly don't need it.
>
> Werner

For that, you want Visual Studio...

Chris ;)
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Re: Replying to posts

[Chris Yate]

On 28 Apr 2016 13:07, "Werner LEMBERG"  wrote:
>
>
> > Would you suggest Frescobaldi is *not* a big improvement in the User
> > Interface for Lilypond development?
>
> No, it isn't.  It is a big improvement for *using* lilypond (well, for
> all those guys and ladies who like IDEs), but for lilypond
> *development* you certainly don't need it.
>
> Werner

Subtle point well made.

Cheers! Chris
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Re: Replying to posts

[Werner LEMBERG]

> Would you suggest Frescobaldi is *not* a big improvement in the User
> Interface for Lilypond development?

No, it isn't.  It is a big improvement for *using* lilypond (well, for
all those guys and ladies who like IDEs), but for lilypond
*development* you certainly don't need it.


Werner

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Re: Replying to posts

[Urs Liska]

Am 28.04.2016 um 13:43 schrieb Chris Yate:
>  Would you suggest Frescobaldi is *not* a big improvement in
> the User Interface for Lilypond development?

Oh, just wait for the flame wars when we announce that we finally
provide tools for graphically tweaking slurs in Frescobaldi ;-)
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Re: Replying to posts

[Chris Yate]

On 27 April 2016 at 19:25, Anthonys Lists  wrote:
>
> And the reality is, most people HERE, including the most important ones! use 
> simple, plain-text, email clients.
> There's a reason why Outlook Lusers are not welcome on most mailing lists, 
> and that's because the result is incomprehensible, pretty fast!
>
> Why is it that you get so many idiots who think that "ooh, shiny" is the same 
> as "new, improved".
> Lilypond is not aimed at the "ooh shiny" brigade, so if you want to be part 
> of that, please go somewhere else ...

Respectfully, I disagree. Having a shiny AND functional tool (no smut
here, I'm British) is perfectly possible, and wanting to use one
doesn't make you a magpie. It's snobbery -- you might say 'inverted'
snobbery -- to suggest so.

"Shiny" isn't necessarily "improved" but they're not mutually
exclusive. Would you suggest Frescobaldi is *not* a big improvement in
the User Interface for Lilypond development?

Chris

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Re: Replying to posts

[Peter Gentry]

 
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:01:48 +0200

From: David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org>

To: Chris Yate <chrisy...@gmail.com>

Cc: Gianmaria Lari <gianmarial...@gmail.com>, Lilypond-User Mailing

List <lilypond-user@gnu.org>

Subject: Re: Replying to posts

Message-ID: <871t5r2u3n@fencepost.gnu.org>

Content-Type: text/plain

Chris Yate <chrisy...@gmail.com> writes:

> To be honest, I'd suggest you ignore the people that whinge about HTML 
> emails, top-posting, etc. For the 20-something years I've been using 
> the internet there's always been pedantic arses
 (inappropriate on this list pedants would serve your purpose)
 on mailing lists that 
> would rather beat people up about the format of emails and people's 
> grammar and spelling than answer the damn question. (what is your evidence 
> for this assertion?)

Looks like I'm no longer welcome on this list. I'll unsubscribe and leave it to 
the people who understand the medium better.

I assume that I'm more welcome on the developer list. People there are more 
likely to get along with conveying messages using text.

David Kastrup

Don't do it  David the silent majority appreciate your input.

Outlook users only have to click on format plain text to keep everyone happy.

regards 
Peter Gentry 



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Neo-Layout and LilyPond (was: Re: Replying to posts)

[Simon Albrecht]

On 27.04.2016 14:10, lilyp...@maltemeyn.de wrote:
(now I use the neo layout but that's somewhat special ...) 


Me too! And I find it perfect for LilyPond code.

Best, Simon

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Re: Replying to posts

[N. Andrew Walsh]

I *told* you it would be a great nerd-fight. So long as we argue in good
faith, and stay friends afterwards, it's all in good spirit.

<3

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 8:39 PM, Rafael Ramirez Morales <
rafael.ramirezmora...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks everybody.
>
> This has been one of the funniest flames in recent memory.
>
> Funny because a benign "do not use HTML mail" hits the fan at warp speed.
>
> Funny, because we are talking about LilyPond users here:
> Many non-technical end users, maybe transitioning from
> WYSIWYG/point-click to WYSIWYM.
> Many if not most users producing complex graphically loaded typeset
> documents, often attached to the emails, because they're impossible to
> explain "in plain text" (and a major violation to other netiquette
> standards).
>
> Ultimately funny because, as mailing lists go, usually one uses the
> tool at hand. Sometimes its Outlook, sometimes a WebMail application,
> sometimes ThunderBird, Mutt, Gnus, pine, or a toaster. Many end users
> may not even know, or usually can't choose their MUA.
>
> So, as much as I agree on principle to recommend some "best practices"
> for a mailing list, sometimes the best one can do is ask and hope for
> the best.
>
> (And to add to the General Knowledge base, Gmail allows for plain text
> emails. Click on the down arrow at the bottom right of your message
> and select "Plain text".)
>
> Cheers.
>
> On 27 April 2016 at 17:33, David Wright  wrote:
> > On Wed 27 Apr 2016, Chris Yate wrote:
> >
> >> To be honest, I'd suggest you ignore the people that whinge about HTML
> >> emails, top-posting, etc. For the 20-something years I've been using the
> >> internet there's always been pedantic arses on mailing lists that would
> >> rather beat people up about the format of emails and people's grammar
> and
> >> spelling than answer the damn question.
> >
> >
> >> On 27 Apr 2016, "Andrew Bernard"  wrote:
> >> > Although I started this thread, it was purely because David Wright had
> >> > mentioned the difficulty to another user, as he had to me. I am not
> the one
> >> > complaining! Wanting to be considerate of all folks on the list I
> took some
> >> > effort to configure my Outlook in Office 365 to produce the correct
> output
> >> > for HTML and plain text email with internet quoting style replies. It
> can
> >> > certainly be done. There is no reason to ask people to stop using
> Outlook.
> >> > What has changed is that its current default behaviour is the
> opposite of
> >> > the past, and I was attempting to alert people to that. Even I was
> unaware.
> > [...]
> >> > In my opinion, internet etiquette would suggest that one be
> considerate
> >> > of the community of mailing list users, and try to accomodate
> everyone as
> >> > best one can. I can’t see why this is not desirable. Or perhaps I am
> >> > completely obsolete, and etiquette in general is now considered old
> >> > fashioned.
> >
> >> With all due respect, considerate is as considerate does. Shouting and
> >> screaming because you use some obscure tool that doesn't work the way
> 99%
> >> of the internet messaging tools in use work, and expect people to be
> >> accommodating of you, isn't considerate.
> >
> >
> >> ...to be clear
> >>
> >> I understand not everyone uses the same tools and we have different
> needs.
> >> The thing that tends to rile me is the tone of the complaints.
> >
> >
> > I have in the recent past posted (the first being the "Exhibit One"
> > of this thread):
> >
> > "Please can you quote in a way that's visible in text clients, not just
> HTML ones."
> >
> > "Please configure your client to post a text equivalent of your HTML
> code."
> >
> > Perhaps you could help me improve the tone of these sentences as I
> > don't want to be accused of shouting and screaming.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > David.
> >
> > ___
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>
>
>
> --
> We are (...) star stuff contemplating the stars (...) We are one
> species. We are star stuff harvesting star light.
> -- Carl Sagan
>
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Re: Replying to posts

[Rafael Ramirez Morales]

Thanks everybody.

This has been one of the funniest flames in recent memory.

Funny because a benign "do not use HTML mail" hits the fan at warp speed.

Funny, because we are talking about LilyPond users here:
Many non-technical end users, maybe transitioning from
WYSIWYG/point-click to WYSIWYM.
Many if not most users producing complex graphically loaded typeset
documents, often attached to the emails, because they're impossible to
explain "in plain text" (and a major violation to other netiquette
standards).

Ultimately funny because, as mailing lists go, usually one uses the
tool at hand. Sometimes its Outlook, sometimes a WebMail application,
sometimes ThunderBird, Mutt, Gnus, pine, or a toaster. Many end users
may not even know, or usually can't choose their MUA.

So, as much as I agree on principle to recommend some "best practices"
for a mailing list, sometimes the best one can do is ask and hope for
the best.

(And to add to the General Knowledge base, Gmail allows for plain text
emails. Click on the down arrow at the bottom right of your message
and select "Plain text".)

Cheers.

On 27 April 2016 at 17:33, David Wright  wrote:
> On Wed 27 Apr 2016, Chris Yate wrote:
>
>> To be honest, I'd suggest you ignore the people that whinge about HTML
>> emails, top-posting, etc. For the 20-something years I've been using the
>> internet there's always been pedantic arses on mailing lists that would
>> rather beat people up about the format of emails and people's grammar and
>> spelling than answer the damn question.
>
>
>> On 27 Apr 2016, "Andrew Bernard"  wrote:
>> > Although I started this thread, it was purely because David Wright had
>> > mentioned the difficulty to another user, as he had to me. I am not the one
>> > complaining! Wanting to be considerate of all folks on the list I took some
>> > effort to configure my Outlook in Office 365 to produce the correct output
>> > for HTML and plain text email with internet quoting style replies. It can
>> > certainly be done. There is no reason to ask people to stop using Outlook.
>> > What has changed is that its current default behaviour is the opposite of
>> > the past, and I was attempting to alert people to that. Even I was unaware.
> [...]
>> > In my opinion, internet etiquette would suggest that one be considerate
>> > of the community of mailing list users, and try to accomodate everyone as
>> > best one can. I can’t see why this is not desirable. Or perhaps I am
>> > completely obsolete, and etiquette in general is now considered old
>> > fashioned.
>
>> With all due respect, considerate is as considerate does. Shouting and
>> screaming because you use some obscure tool that doesn't work the way 99%
>> of the internet messaging tools in use work, and expect people to be
>> accommodating of you, isn't considerate.
>
>
>> ...to be clear
>>
>> I understand not everyone uses the same tools and we have different needs.
>> The thing that tends to rile me is the tone of the complaints.
>
>
> I have in the recent past posted (the first being the "Exhibit One"
> of this thread):
>
> "Please can you quote in a way that's visible in text clients, not just HTML 
> ones."
>
> "Please configure your client to post a text equivalent of your HTML code."
>
> Perhaps you could help me improve the tone of these sentences as I
> don't want to be accused of shouting and screaming.
>
> Cheers,
> David.
>
> ___
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Re: Replying to posts

[Anthonys Lists]

On 27/04/2016 12:35, N. Andrew Walsh wrote:


With all due respect, considerate is as considerate does. Shouting
and screaming because you use some obscure tool that doesn't work
the way 99% of the internet messaging tools in use work, and
expect people to be accommodating of you, isn't considerate.

Well,  here's the part where I feel like I should put the popcorn down 
and step back in. See, I've had to spend no small amount of time 
arguing with people higher up in the various institutions where I've 
worked, that I can't read mails they send in proprietary formats. I 
had one place that would type an email message as a Word document and 
send that as an email attachment, because they didn't understand how 
email worked. And I, that annoying nerd with the Linux box, had to 
point out every time that I couldn't read it and got told in no 
uncertain terms that I would "get mail like everybody else did" and 
kindly asked to keep my mouth shut.


And the reality is, most people HERE, including the most important ones! 
use simple, plain-text, email clients. There's a reason why Outlook 
Lusers are not welcome on most mailing lists, and that's because the 
result is incomprehensible, pretty fast!


Why is it that you get so many idiots who think that "ooh, shiny" is the 
same as "new, improved". Lilypond is not aimed at the "ooh shiny" 
brigade, so if you want to be part of that, please go somewhere else ...


>>> But the slow internet connection issue is not really a problem for 
emails, even at the snail-like speed of 1.6GBs.


I would absolutely LOVE a speed of 1.6GBs (This wasn't you Andrew, I 
know) but, much as some people may have moved up, I think a speed of 
1.6Mb/s is much more common - and maybe four orders of magnitude slower! 
Amd even THAT is fast for a lot of people. Ever heard of the "long 
tail"? There's a lot of people still who are on slow links or 
pay-per-MB, and mailing list etiquette is aimed at not wasting OTHER 
PEOPLES' resources. It's just plain rude to expect otherwise.


Cheers,
Wol
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Re: Replying to posts

[David Wright]

On Wed 27 Apr 2016, Chris Yate wrote:

> To be honest, I'd suggest you ignore the people that whinge about HTML
> emails, top-posting, etc. For the 20-something years I've been using the
> internet there's always been pedantic arses on mailing lists that would
> rather beat people up about the format of emails and people's grammar and
> spelling than answer the damn question.


> On 27 Apr 2016, "Andrew Bernard"  wrote:
> > Although I started this thread, it was purely because David Wright had
> > mentioned the difficulty to another user, as he had to me. I am not the one
> > complaining! Wanting to be considerate of all folks on the list I took some
> > effort to configure my Outlook in Office 365 to produce the correct output
> > for HTML and plain text email with internet quoting style replies. It can
> > certainly be done. There is no reason to ask people to stop using Outlook.
> > What has changed is that its current default behaviour is the opposite of
> > the past, and I was attempting to alert people to that. Even I was unaware.
[...]
> > In my opinion, internet etiquette would suggest that one be considerate
> > of the community of mailing list users, and try to accomodate everyone as
> > best one can. I can’t see why this is not desirable. Or perhaps I am
> > completely obsolete, and etiquette in general is now considered old
> > fashioned.

> With all due respect, considerate is as considerate does. Shouting and
> screaming because you use some obscure tool that doesn't work the way 99%
> of the internet messaging tools in use work, and expect people to be
> accommodating of you, isn't considerate.


> ...to be clear
> 
> I understand not everyone uses the same tools and we have different needs.
> The thing that tends to rile me is the tone of the complaints.


I have in the recent past posted (the first being the "Exhibit One"
of this thread):

"Please can you quote in a way that's visible in text clients, not just HTML 
ones."

"Please configure your client to post a text equivalent of your HTML code."

Perhaps you could help me improve the tone of these sentences as I
don't want to be accused of shouting and screaming.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Replying to posts

[Christoph Friedrich]

...persistently...
the world has moved on, my computer changes my words without asking me.

Am 27.04.2016 14:51, schrieb Christoph Friedrich:

... only the Swiss persistingly deny to use it:-)



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Re: Replying to posts

[Christoph Friedrich]

... only the Swiss persistingly deny to use it:-)


Am 27.04.2016 14:35, schrieb Werner LEMBERG:

Now I'm going to start an argument about your deplorable
capitulation to the masses by abandoning the venerable "ß".


Well, the `ß' character is not abandonded at all in Germany and
Austria!  Only the rules have changed when to use it.


   Werner




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Re: Replying to posts

[Werner LEMBERG]

> Now I'm going to start an argument about your deplorable
> capitulation to the masses by abandoning the venerable "ß".

Well, the `ß' character is not abandonded at all in Germany and
Austria!  Only the rules have changed when to use it.


   Werner
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Re: Replying to posts

[Werner LEMBERG]

From: Chris Yate <chrisy...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Replying to posts
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:01:41 +0100

> On 27 Apr 2016 12:40 pm, "N. Andrew Walsh" <n.andrew.wa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> In german we have a saying:
>>> "Leute fresst Scheisse. Millionen Fliegen können nicht irren."
>>
>>  Now I'm going to start an argument about your deplorable capitulation to
> the masses by abandoning the venerable "ß".
> 
> What character set is this in?

Thomas's e-mail was correctly tagged as

  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
  Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

However, the reply from Andrew is lacking those fields...


Werner
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Re: Replying to posts

[N. Andrew Walsh]

"special"? I'll show you special. I have a Maltron split-layout keyboard,
with a switch on the underside to change between the "normal" German QWERTZ
layout and the custom one Maltron designed for themselves to be ergonomic
(in which the home row is ANISF -- DTHORÄ, the numeric keypad is in between
them, the E is under the left thumb, and every single person who tries to
use my computer walks away with a splitting headache). Hear: look at the
product page and weep at the baffling eccentricity:
http://www.maltron.com/shop/product/2526-maltron-two-hand-3d-fully-ergonomic-keyboards-for-germany

(yes, it cost a fortune, but it saved my hands after years of steadily
increasing carpal tunnel issues)

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 2:10 PM,  wrote:

> Am 2016-04-27 13:39, schrieb N. Andrew Walsh:
>
>>
>>> In german we have a saying:
>>> "Leute fresst Scheisse. Millionen Fliegen können nicht irren."
>>>
>>>  Now I'm going to start an argument about your deplorable capitulation to
>> the masses by abandoning the venerable "ß".
>>
>> *goes back to the popcorn*
>>
>>
> I can only guess but some years ago I changed my keyboard layout from
> german qwertz (containing umlauts and ß) to US qwerty because {[]}\|~ are
> much more easily to reach and LaTeX (which I used often then) has ASCII
> representations of these characters. Maybe he has similar reasons. Or he is
> secretly Swiss ;)
>
> (now I use the neo layout but that's somewhat special ...)
>
>
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Re: Replying to posts

[lilypond]

Am 2016-04-27 14:01, schrieb Chris Yate:
On 27 Apr 2016 12:40 pm, "N. Andrew Walsh"  
wrote:


In german we have a saying:
"Leute fresst Scheisse. Millionen Fliegen können nicht irren."


 Now I'm going to start an argument about your deplorable capitulation 
to

the masses by abandoning the venerable "ß".

What character set is this in?



Among others ISO 8859-1 (Latin-1). In Unicode U+00DF. Capital ß U+1E9E.

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Re: Replying to posts

[lilypond]

Am 2016-04-27 13:39, schrieb N. Andrew Walsh:


In german we have a saying:
"Leute fresst Scheisse. Millionen Fliegen können nicht irren."

 Now I'm going to start an argument about your deplorable capitulation 
to

the masses by abandoning the venerable "ß".

*goes back to the popcorn*



I can only guess but some years ago I changed my keyboard layout from 
german qwertz (containing umlauts and ß) to US qwerty because {[]}\|~ 
are much more easily to reach and LaTeX (which I used often then) has 
ASCII representations of these characters. Maybe he has similar reasons. 
Or he is secretly Swiss ;)


(now I use the neo layout but that's somewhat special ...)

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Re: Replying to posts

[Gilles]

Hello.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:44:39 +0200 (CEST), Martin Tarenskeen wrote:

On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, David Kastrup wrote:


Looks like I'm no longer welcome on this list.  I'll unsubscribe and
leave it to the people who understand the medium better.

I assume that I'm more welcome on the developer list.  People there 
are

more likely to get along with conveying messages using text.


Don't let a handful of over-sensitive people upset you.
And the other way around I also want to ask them: don't let people
like David Kastrup upset you either.

I'm assuming that the majority of readers of this mailing-list
couldn't care less what mailclient everyone is using, if their mail 
is

html formatted or plain text, if we should top-post or not, etc.


The primary issue is not about "a majority" (who may not have a clue 
why
HTML mail ranges from bad to evil) but respect towards those who read 
the

messages, and try to help the posters.

It should take much less time for readers to figure out what the 
question

is, than it took the posters to write them.

If, out of lazyness, the latter plainly ignore the rules aimed at
conveying more information than noise, the list owner should consider
banning them, rather than risk putting off those who follow the rules.


Regards,
Gilles


The majority of readers of this mailinglist just wants to discuss the
usage of LilyPond. That's why this list is called "lilypond-user".
Everyone who has valid questions, sensible answers, or interesting
stories around this subject is more than welcome. And David fits this
description perfectly. So please don't unsubscribe.




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Re: Replying to posts

[Chris Yate]

On 27 Apr 2016 12:40 pm, "N. Andrew Walsh"  wrote:
>>
>> In german we have a saying:
>> "Leute fresst Scheisse. Millionen Fliegen können nicht irren."
>
>  Now I'm going to start an argument about your deplorable capitulation to
the masses by abandoning the venerable "ß".

What character set is this in?
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Re: Replying to posts

[Chris Yate]

...to be clear

I understand not everyone uses the same tools and we have different needs.
The thing that tends to rile me is the tone of the complaints.

When it's a legitimate matter of doing things to cooperate with list
software, that's absolutely reasonable. When it's somebody's deeply held
and arbitrary personal belief that top posting is ungodly and a scourge,
that's completely different.

Cheers. Chris


On 27 Apr 2016 12:13 pm, "Chris Yate"
 wrote:

>

> >

>
> On 27 Apr 2016 12:04, "Andrew Bernard"  wrote:
> >
> > Hi Chris,
> >
> > Although I started this thread, it was purely because David Wright had
mentioned the difficulty to another user, as he had to me. I am not the one
complaining! Wanting to be considerate of all folks on the list I took some
effort to configure my Outlook in Office 365 to produce the correct output
for HTML and plain text email with internet quoting style replies. It can
certainly be done. There is no reason to ask people to stop using Outlook.
What has changed is that its current default behaviour is the opposite of
the past, and I was attempting to alert people to that. Even I was unaware.
>
> I absolutely blame Microsoft for that... It's confusing and overly
difficult. The issue I've had is when working with people that use default
settings, using "text only" (which seemed to be the only way to permanently
achieve "traditional" quoting, at least in the past) is a big problem.
>
> > As to plain text readers, it is a perfectly valid and viable choice. I
know that David Wright uses Mutt which is a very capable and effective UNIX
mail client. I am pretty sure that David Kastrup uses Emacs for email as he
has mentioned issues relating to the way images are included in emails in
the list which my impact emacs users. For people working in a technical
environment on a UNIX platform using a principally text based workflow,
text based email clients can be very effective and very efficient. There is
no sense in which they are outdated. So there are at least two and likely
many more significant contributors to the community using plain text
toolchains.
>
> Yes, of course it's a valid choice. And I recognise it's a particular
issue for people using Accessibility tools. But if you think it's remotely
"normal" to use emacs for email... Well... ;-) it's certainly not the path
of least resistance, is it?
>
> > Urs Liska has written at length on the strengths and advantages of a
plain text toolchain for lilypond in particular. I can’t see how the
concept is old fashioned, or that the world has ‘moved on’. When
intensively developing in a text based toolchain, plain text mail clients
can make a lot of sense.
>
> > In my opinion, internet etiquette would suggest that one be considerate
of the community of mailing list users, and try to accomodate everyone as
best one can. I can’t see why this is not desirable. Or perhaps I am
completely obsolete, and etiquette in general is now considered old
fashioned.
> > Andrew
> >
>
> With all due respect, considerate is as considerate does. Shouting and
screaming because you use some obscure tool that doesn't work the way 99%
of the internet messaging tools in use work, and expect people to be
accommodating of you, isn't considerate.
>
> Chris
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Re: Replying to posts

[Martin Tarenskeen]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, David Kastrup wrote:


Looks like I'm no longer welcome on this list.  I'll unsubscribe and
leave it to the people who understand the medium better.

I assume that I'm more welcome on the developer list.  People there are
more likely to get along with conveying messages using text.


Don't let a handful of over-sensitive people upset you.
And the other way around I also want to ask them: don't let people like 
David Kastrup upset you either.


I'm assuming that the majority of readers of this mailing-list couldn't 
care less what mailclient everyone is using, if their mail is html 
formatted or plain text, if we should top-post or not, etc.


The majority of readers of this mailinglist just wants to discuss the 
usage of LilyPond. That's why this list is called "lilypond-user". 
Everyone who has valid questions, sensible answers, or interesting stories 
around this subject is more than welcome. And David fits this description 
perfectly. So please don't unsubscribe.


MT



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Re: Replying to posts

[N. Andrew Walsh]

>
> In german we have a saying:
> "Leute fresst Scheisse. Millionen Fliegen können nicht irren."
>
 Now I'm going to start an argument about your deplorable capitulation to
the masses by abandoning the venerable "ß".

*goes back to the popcorn*
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Re: Replying to posts

[N. Andrew Walsh]

>
> With all due respect, considerate is as considerate does. Shouting and
> screaming because you use some obscure tool that doesn't work the way 99%
> of the internet messaging tools in use work, and expect people to be
> accommodating of you, isn't considerate.
>
Well,  here's the part where I feel like I should put the popcorn down and
step back in. See, I've had to spend no small amount of time arguing with
people higher up in the various institutions where I've worked, that I
can't read mails they send in proprietary formats. I had one place that
would type an email message as a Word document and send that as an email
attachment, because they didn't understand how email worked. And I, that
annoying nerd with the Linux box, had to point out every time that I
couldn't read it and got told in no uncertain terms that I would "get mail
like everybody else did" and kindly asked to keep my mouth shut.

People have legitimate reasons for using programs like Mutt for mail (of
course, why you'd use emacs when vim is clearly the *real* text editor
[COME AT ME BRO] is beyond me), and it's not unreasonable for them to ask
for some accommodation. Or, more to the point, for a third party to send a
general mail asking a group to make accommodations for some of its members
(for which those members did not themselves ask, likely out of exactly this
considerate impulse), the only burden of which would be that some users
might need to spend a little time configuring a(n admittedly terribly
designed) client.

And as you point out, there isn't really a good argument for why you *need*
to use html-formatted email (unless you *need* to send all your email in
Comic Sans or something, in which case I got nuthin'), so I think it's also
not an unreasonable request.

Cheers,

A
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Re: Replying to posts

[Thomas Morley]

2016-04-27 13:13 GMT+02:00 Chris Yate :

> Shouting and
> screaming because you use some obscure tool that doesn't work the way 99% of
> the internet messaging tools in use work, and expect people to be
> accommodating of you, isn't considerate.
>
> Chris


In german we have a saying:
"Leute fresst Scheisse. Millionen Fliegen können nicht irren."

-Harm

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Re: Replying to posts

[Chris Yate]

On 27 Apr 2016 12:04, "Andrew Bernard"  wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> Although I started this thread, it was purely because David Wright had
mentioned the difficulty to another user, as he had to me. I am not the one
complaining! Wanting to be considerate of all folks on the list I took some
effort to configure my Outlook in Office 365 to produce the correct output
for HTML and plain text email with internet quoting style replies. It can
certainly be done. There is no reason to ask people to stop using Outlook.
What has changed is that its current default behaviour is the opposite of
the past, and I was attempting to alert people to that. Even I was unaware.

I absolutely blame Microsoft for that... It's confusing and overly
difficult. The issue I've had is when working with people that use default
settings, using "text only" (which seemed to be the only way to permanently
achieve "traditional" quoting, at least in the past) is a big problem.

> As to plain text readers, it is a perfectly valid and viable choice. I
know that David Wright uses Mutt which is a very capable and effective UNIX
mail client. I am pretty sure that David Kastrup uses Emacs for email as he
has mentioned issues relating to the way images are included in emails in
the list which my impact emacs users. For people working in a technical
environment on a UNIX platform using a principally text based workflow,
text based email clients can be very effective and very efficient. There is
no sense in which they are outdated. So there are at least two and likely
many more significant contributors to the community using plain text
toolchains.

Yes, of course it's a valid choice. And I recognise it's a particular issue
for people using Accessibility tools. But if you think it's remotely
"normal" to use emacs for email... Well... ;-) it's certainly not the path
of least resistance, is it?

> Urs Liska has written at length on the strengths and advantages of a
plain text toolchain for lilypond in particular. I can’t see how the
concept is old fashioned, or that the world has ‘moved on’. When
intensively developing in a text based toolchain, plain text mail clients
can make a lot of sense.

> In my opinion, internet etiquette would suggest that one be considerate
of the community of mailing list users, and try to accomodate everyone as
best one can. I can’t see why this is not desirable. Or perhaps I am
completely obsolete, and etiquette in general is now considered old
fashioned.
> Andrew
>

With all due respect, considerate is as considerate does. Shouting and
screaming because you use some obscure tool that doesn't work the way 99%
of the internet messaging tools in use work, and expect people to be
accommodating of you, isn't considerate.

Chris
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Re: Replying to posts

[Federico Bruni]

Il giorno mer 27 apr 2016 alle 12:30, Chris Yate  
ha scritto:
On the other hand, if one is still using Pine for reading email, I 
think it's their own fault if they can't read a message. The world 
has moved on, and so should our tools.


"The world has moved on" doesn't sound like a good argument.
The world often moves on to a worse situation, unfortunately. That's 
the case for Internet in general.


It looks like I'm moving backwards then. I started with Thunderbird, 
then Gmail, then Geary and now I'm taking in consideration Mutt.


The email is an old tool with a sane etiquette that should be respected 
by anybody.
If you don't like it, use alternative - really new - tools like 
stackexchange, discourse¹, etc.


¹ http://www.discourse.org/




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Re: Replying to posts

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi David,

Nothing could be further from the truth. Please refer to my reply posted to Mr 
Yate posted this very minute.

I must say that after seeing the reponse to this thread I started I myself was 
considering unsubscribing. Dear me.


Andrew





On 27/04/2016, 9:01 PM, "lilypond-user on behalf of David Kastrup" 
 wrote:

>Looks like I'm no longer welcome on this list.  I'll unsubscribe and
>leave it to the people who understand the medium better.
>
>I assume that I'm more welcome on the developer list.  People there are
>more likely to get along with conveying messages using text.


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Re: Replying to posts

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Chris,

Although I started this thread, it was purely because David Wright had 
mentioned the difficulty to another user, as he had to me. I am not the one 
complaining! Wanting to be considerate of all folks on the list I took some 
effort to configure my Outlook in Office 365 to produce the correct output for 
HTML and plain text email with internet quoting style replies. It can certainly 
be done. There is no reason to ask people to stop using Outlook. What has 
changed is that its current default behaviour is the opposite of the past, and 
I was attempting to alert people to that. Even I was unaware.

As to plain text readers, it is a perfectly valid and viable choice. I know 
that David Wright uses Mutt which is a very capable and effective UNIX mail 
client. I am pretty sure that David Kastrup uses Emacs for email as he has 
mentioned issues relating to the way images are included in emails in the list 
which my impact emacs users. For people working in a technical environment on a 
UNIX platform using a principally text based workflow, text based email clients 
can be very effective and very efficient. There is no sense in which they are 
outdated. So there are at least two and likely many more significant 
contributors to the community using plain text toolchains.

Urs Liska has written at length on the strengths and advantages of a plain text 
toolchain for lilypond in particular. I can’t see how the concept is old 
fashioned, or that the world has ‘moved on’. When intensively developing in a 
text based toolchain, plain text mail clients can make a lot of sense.

In my opinion, internet etiquette would suggest that one be considerate of the 
community of mailing list users, and try to accomodate everyone as best one 
can. I can’t see why this is not desirable. Or perhaps I am completely 
obsolete, and etiquette in general is now considered old fashioned.

Andrew




On 27/04/2016, 8:30 PM, "Chris Yate"  wrote:


In my experience it is well-nigh impossible to make Outlook behave like that 
without screwing up the way it works* for "normal" email. It's better to just 
stop using Outlook. I find Gmail is generally sane, but it encourages things 
like inlining images (which I've been told off about here in the past). 

On the other hand, if one is still using Pine for reading email, I think it's 
their own fault if they can't read a message. The world has moved on, and so 
should our tools.





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Re: Replying to posts

[David Kastrup]

Chris Yate  writes:

> To be honest, I'd suggest you ignore the people that whinge about HTML
> emails, top-posting, etc. For the 20-something years I've been using
> the internet there's always been pedantic arses on mailing lists that
> would rather beat people up about the format of emails and people's
> grammar and spelling than answer the damn question.

Looks like I'm no longer welcome on this list.  I'll unsubscribe and
leave it to the people who understand the medium better.

I assume that I'm more welcome on the developer list.  People there are
more likely to get along with conveying messages using text.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Replying to posts

[Chris Yate]

> The list is plain text only. So if you use a mailer like Outlook and your
default is to send HTML format mail,
> you need to configure Outlook to reply to email in the format in which it
was sent, that is, here, plain text.
> Then list users will get properly formatted plain text replies with
internet style ‘>’ quoting. I am pretty sure
> Outlook used to do this by default, but now it does not, and needs to be
set up to do so.

In my experience it is well-nigh impossible to make Outlook behave like
that without screwing up the way it works* for "normal" email. It's better
to just stop using Outlook. I find Gmail is generally sane, but it
encourages things like inlining images (which I've been told off about here
in the past).

On the other hand, if one is still using Pine for reading email, I think
it's their own fault if they can't read a message. The world has moved on,
and so should our tools.

Chris

* (which in itself is fundamentally broken and confusing)
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Re: Replying to posts

[Urs Liska]

Am 27.04.2016 um 12:17 schrieb Chris Yate:
> To be honest, I'd suggest you ignore the people that whinge about HTML
> emails, top-posting, etc. For the 20-something years I've been using
> the internet there's always been pedantic arses on mailing lists that
> would rather beat people up about the format of emails and people's
> grammar and spelling than answer the damn question.
>

That's probably true, but to be fair one has to say that among those who
are regularly complaining on the LilyPond lists are also those who *do*
answer the damn questions.

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Re: Replying to posts

[Chris Yate]

> The reality is that the world, given the ubiquity of broadband and
graphical interfaces, has moved on from plain text.
> It is no longer the standard and has not been for a decade or more- most
Internet users have, I suspect, no knowledge
> of this old standard any longer.  Expecting others to accommodate what is
now an out of date standard will simply
> continue to create issues.  It's like expecting web developers to
accommodate lynx in creating Web pages- probably
> not going to happen very often.
>
> One can choose to use text-only software but at this point we are
responsible for our own problems if we do.
> The world has changed and left us  behind.

I agree, 400%! But realise this is a mailing list run on ancient "mailman"
software, which doesn't cope well with the HTML format when things are
quoted. You should always try not to use fancy features like colour and
font-styles, which are likely not to work for most users and especially not
in the digests and list history. But the slow internet connection issue is
not really a problem for emails, even at the snail-like speed of 1.6GBs.

To be honest, I'd suggest you ignore the people that whinge about HTML
emails, top-posting, etc. For the 20-something years I've been using the
internet there's always been pedantic arses on mailing lists that would
rather beat people up about the format of emails and people's grammar and
spelling than answer the damn question.

Chris
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Re: Replying to posts

[Gianmaria Lari]

I personally prefer simple text email... everytime I can avoid html. 

But in case of not trivial subject, using formatting give me the possibility
to explain more clearly my ideas. Yes of course, I could do something
similar using ascii but it would be more difficult, time consuming and the
final result would be worst.

Using bold, italic etc. and including image near the text (not attached at
the end of the email) give the writer the *possibility* to be more clear and
the reader a better experience. Yes, it takes more time to download a
message with an image but (1) people have to use it reasonably and (2) my
feeling is that with today technology and for the average user the
advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

* * *

About pgp: I don't use PGP and I would not use in a mailing list like this.
When I receive lilypond-user Digest messages I found that messages
containing pgp key make the digest message more ugly, longer and difficult
to read. I never complained but I personally think they should be avoided.

My two cents...
g.



--
View this message in context: 
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Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Replying to posts

[David Kastrup]

Wols Lists  writes:

> On 25/04/16 23:48, J Martin Rushton wrote:
>> Your comments about broadband being ubiquitous are unfounded.  Even
>> where broadband is claimed, plenty of people still struggle on with
>> around 1Mb/s.  Using BT in the south east of England we only get 1.6
>> Mb/s and I don't appreciate sitting and waiting just so that exploding
>> blancmange can be projected onto my screen.  Stick to ASCII for text
>> and keep the fancy stuff for when it's needed.
>
> I'm lucky - living 100 yards from the exchange, I get 17Mb over copper -
> that is when I've got a working DNS! Half the time it seems my internet
> link is fine, but unusable because BT's DNS has decided to stop working!
>
> (And of course, I can't get the widely touted super-fast Infinity -
> otherwise known as Fibre To The Cabinet - because I don't have a cabinet!!!)

The fiber pipeline for the next town passes not all that far from our
house.  The natural gas pipeline crosses right under our barns.

Guess who isn't large enough to warrant a tap on either.  We still get
something like 2Mbit/s over copper.  Used to be 1Mbit/s before switching
providers, so we're lucky.  But then we didn't have a house mate
watching movies via streaming services yet, so it evens out.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Replying to posts

[Blöchl Bernhard]

Am 26.04.2016 01:16, schrieb Kieren MacMillan:

Hello all,


keep the fancy stuff for when it's needed.


Like PGP?  ;)

Regards,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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A PGP signature has typically about 832 Byte. That does mean with 
1Mbit/s this signature needs 0,006656 s to be transfered. You need very, 
very fast thumbs to twiddle your thumbs in that time while waiting.


Best

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Re: Replying to posts

[Wols Lists]

On 25/04/16 23:48, J Martin Rushton wrote:
> Your comments about broadband being ubiquitous are unfounded.  Even
> where broadband is claimed, plenty of people still struggle on with
> around 1Mb/s.  Using BT in the south east of England we only get 1.6
> Mb/s and I don't appreciate sitting and waiting just so that exploding
> blancmange can be projected onto my screen.  Stick to ASCII for text
> and keep the fancy stuff for when it's needed.

I'm lucky - living 100 yards from the exchange, I get 17Mb over copper -
that is when I've got a working DNS! Half the time it seems my internet
link is fine, but unusable because BT's DNS has decided to stop working!

(And of course, I can't get the widely touted super-fast Infinity -
otherwise known as Fibre To The Cabinet - because I don't have a cabinet!!!)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Replying to posts

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hello all,

> keep the fancy stuff for when it's needed.

Like PGP?  ;)

Regards,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Replying to posts

[J Martin Rushton]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



On 25/04/16 13:39, Tim McNamara wrote:
> On Apr 25, 2016, at 5:00 AM, Andrew Bernard
> >
> wrote:
> 
>> Greetings All,
>> 
>> In a recent post David Wright asks of  a user:
>> 
>>> Please configure your client to post a text equivalent of your
>>> HTML
>> code.
>> 
>> He also asked me to do that.
> 
> The reality is that the world, given the ubiquity of broadband and 
> graphical interfaces, has moved on from plain text.  It is no
> longer the standard and has not been for a decade or more- most
> Internet users have, I suspect, no knowledge of this old standard
> any longer. Expecting others to accommodate what is now an out of
> date standard will simply continue to create issues.  It's like
> expecting web developers to accommodate lynx in creating Web pages-
> probably not going to happen very often.
> 
> One can choose to use text-only software but at this point we are 
> responsible for our own problems if we do.  The world has changed
> and left us behind.
> 
> 
> ___ lilypond-user
> mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org 
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Your comments about broadband being ubiquitous are unfounded.  Even
where broadband is claimed, plenty of people still struggle on with
around 1Mb/s.  Using BT in the south east of England we only get 1.6
Mb/s and I don't appreciate sitting and waiting just so that exploding
blancmange can be projected onto my screen.  Stick to ASCII for text
and keep the fancy stuff for when it's needed.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
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=dZ8W
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: Replying to posts

[N. Andrew Walsh]

Actually, I'm more inclined to agree with you (I *despise*
overly-HTML-formatted email, even though I use gmail, because even with a
good fontconfig setup it looks like garbage). I was, rather, expressing
some enthusiasm that we're a community that has intensive discussions about
stuff like this, without taking any position in the discussion itself.

You want a *real* nerd-fight, though, we can go back to talking about
accidentals for music in just intonation.

Cheers,

A

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 4:47 PM, David Kastrup  wrote:

> "N. Andrew Walsh"  writes:
>
> > Oh man, this is going to be the best nerd-fight ever.
> >
> > *gets popcorn and writes a reply out in non-ISO character encoding*
>
> There is no need to fight.  If there is sufficient support for
> abolishing all mailing list etiquette and common sense, those who are
> not willing to contribute to the discussion under such circumstances
> (which includes me) are free to go elsewhere where conversing about a
> typesetting system driven by plain text in a medium of plain text is not
> frowned upon.
>
> --
> David Kastrup
>
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Re: Replying to posts

[David Kastrup]

"N. Andrew Walsh"  writes:

> Oh man, this is going to be the best nerd-fight ever.
>
> *gets popcorn and writes a reply out in non-ISO character encoding*

There is no need to fight.  If there is sufficient support for
abolishing all mailing list etiquette and common sense, those who are
not willing to contribute to the discussion under such circumstances
(which includes me) are free to go elsewhere where conversing about a
typesetting system driven by plain text in a medium of plain text is not
frowned upon.

-- 
David Kastrup

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