Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Rui Nuno Capela wrote: - Direct access plugin/insert parameter changing tool-tip added. I'm not sure it makes a terrible sense to post this to LAD rather than to LAU, but I'd just like to notice that I'm not extremely happy with the current implementation of direct access for the following reasons: 1. Only one setting per plug-in is available, so I can't have control over, say, attack and release in a compressor simultaneously. 2. The widget is hard to aim (which is probably a trade-off with an aim to make UI compact). Maybe some phat-like slider would do the trick? 3. The step for mouse wheel scrolling is too large by default and doesn't change to a more granular one with Alt/Shift modifier buttons. Re widgets, here is another idea: http://www.darktable.org/2012/03/bauhaus-widgets/ I'm not totally sure about it yet, I've yet to compile that branch. But just so you know... :) Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 3/5/12 2:16 AM, David Robillard wrote: I think a very simple stand-alone API to deal with OSC message would go a long way towards making OSC more feasible for plugins or Jack apps. there are at least two options: a header library i've been using in a couple of projects [1] and oscpack [2]. both c++ though ... sk [1] https://github.com/kaoskorobase/oscpp [2] http://www.rossbencina.com/code/oscpack ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Sat, Mar 03, 2012 at 11:20:00PM +0100, Albert Graef wrote: I don't know if it's of practical use for anyone else, but time and again I would have had good use for this apparently simple feature. Same here. It would have immensely simplified some past projects, and some more the come. There are many forms such a tool could take. It could be completely unaware of the 'meaning' of any messages, and just reproduce them at the right time. It could be made aware of some simple but recurring formats such as /foo/bar ,ff X Y and display them in a way that makes sense. It could even be made to store some data (e.g. continuous control values, or even 'notes' in an internal format and output them in and OSC format defined by the user. Ciao, -- FA Vor uns liegt ein weites Tal, die Sonne scheint - ein Glitzerstrahl. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Sat, Mar 03, 2012 at 05:29:14PM -0500, Paul Davis wrote: this general language is the whole problem. you can't send OSC to an OSC capable plugin or an external OSC application in any generalized sense, because there is no shared format for the messages. the sequence of messages that you record may make sense to Pure Data, but make absolutely no sense to, say, CSound. So what ? When a user needs a 'sequencer' or whatever you may call it, for OSC messages that means he/she already has a source and destination that understand each other. It's completely irrelevant if others understand the same messages. -- FA Vor uns liegt ein weites Tal, die Sonne scheint - ein Glitzerstrahl. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
Am 5. März 2012 12:24 schrieb Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org: On Sun, Mar 04, 2012 at 12:55:39AM +0100, Albert Graef wrote: Well, what you see as a problem, I see as a virtue. It gives me the flexibility to just pick my own set of messages for the application at hand. The sequencer shouldn't have to care about the particular set of OSC addresses I'm using. Agreed 100%. Agreed 40% Having a standard scheeme for _standard procedures doesn't kill your freedom to still pick custom addresses / add your own extensions to OSC, but simplifies things A LOT for those 90% of users who do standard things, as playing back notes and controlling typical values (e.g. velocity, volume, resonance...) Thus you wouldn't lose any virtue, but those 90% woud gain some. -- E.R. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 03/05/2012 10:33 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Rui Nuno Capela wrote: - Direct access plugin/insert parameter changing tool-tip added. I'm not sure it makes a terrible sense to post this to LAD rather than to LAU, but I'd just like to notice that I'm not extremely happy with the current implementation of direct access for the following reasons: 1. Only one setting per plug-in is available, so I can't have control over, say, attack and release in a compressor simultaneously. the so called direct access feature does only affect one and only one plugin parameter at a time, that being an implementation/design limitation due to the fact that the provided slider widget is scalar and 1-dimensional by nature o.O to tweak more than one parameter simultaneously, for what i'm curious on how you actually could do just that with one 1-dimensional slider, i'll assume you're asking for simultaneous access over the same display space, then look at the generic plugin dialog (plugin/properties) or the plugin own gui editor (plugin/edit), if any. 2. The widget is hard to aim (which is probably a trade-off with an aim to make UI compact). Maybe some phat-like slider would do the trick true. however i have no interesting plan on that regard. maybe, if someone steps up with a patch or sth... ;) 3. The step for mouse wheel scrolling is too large by default and doesn't change to a more granular one with Alt/Shift modifier buttons. true and the good news are it can be fixed sooner perhaps ;) Re widgets, here is another idea: http://www.darktable.org/2012/03/bauhaus-widgets/ I'm not totally sure about it yet, I've yet to compile that branch. But just so you know... :) too bad it looks like it's gtk2. i'm sure someone could rip it off as a qt4 widget and drop it in without much brain-sweat, someone with a lot a time to spare? ;) don't take me wrong. i love the ideas cheers -- rncbc aka Rui Nuno Capela rn...@rncbc.org ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Rui Nuno Capela wrote: to tweak more than one parameter simultaneously, for what i'm curious on how you actually could do just that with one 1-dimensional slider What would I want that for? Just provide one slider per setting :) Works like a charm in A3 :) Deliberate limitation is a whole different thing, of course. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 03/05/2012 04:48 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Rui Nuno Capela wrote: to tweak more than one parameter simultaneously, for what i'm curious on how you actually could do just that with one 1-dimensional slider What would I want that for? Just provide one slider per setting :) Works like a charm in A3 :) you have that in the generic plugin dialog or eventually on the its own provided gui editor. i'm sure that's exactly the same in a3. otoh, i don't think a3 has this direct access thingie, so which limitation is what? :) cheers -- rncbc aka Rui Nuno Capela rn...@rncbc.org ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 03/05/2012 05:15 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 8:59 PM, Rui Nuno Capelarn...@rncbc.org wrote: On 03/05/2012 04:48 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Rui Nuno Capela wrote: to tweak more than one parameter simultaneously, for what i'm curious on how you actually could do just that with one 1-dimensional slider What would I want that for? Just provide one slider per setting :) Works like a charm in A3 :) you have that in the generic plugin dialog or eventually on the its own provided gui editor. i'm sure that's exactly the same in a3. otoh, i don't think a3 has this direct access thingie http://i.minus.com/iiLod2lQiZ5nx.png awesome that's a definite plus to (flagship) a3 i guess :) cheers -- rncbc aka Rui Nuno Capela rn...@rncbc.org ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Mon, 2012-03-05 at 12:13 +0100, Stefan Kersten wrote:
On 3/5/12 2:16 AM, David Robillard wrote:
I think a very simple stand-alone API to deal with OSC message would go
a long way towards making OSC more feasible for plugins or Jack apps.
there are at least two options: a header library i've been using in a
couple of projects [1] and oscpack [2]. both c++ though ...
OSCPack uses the stream-style abuse syntax, arguably (though not
really) the most awful thing about C++.
OSCPP looks pretty good though. Basically a C++ey version of what I was
talking about. Thanks for the pointers.
The require a size before constructing a message thing sucks for
certain cases of generic construction, however this might only be really
much of an issue for bundles which don't have that problem, so maybe
it's not such a big deal.
I have been idly wondering if a round-trip OSC=Atom bridge would be
possible. Atoms are essentially primitives (int, float, string, etc)
with a few simple collections, all POD (vector, dictionary). You can
think of it as sort of a JSONish approach, but low-level rather than
text.
I wonder how one would express a dictionary in OSC?
Assuming for the moment embracing and extending types is fine, there is
one easy cop-out solution, make a type-tagged-blob type, the same as the
normal one except it starts with a type int, but that's pretty opaque.
Maybe something like [] for arrays? {kvkv...}, e.g.
/foo/adict {sssi} name David id 42
=
{ name: David
id:42 }
-dr
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Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 11:14 PM, Emanuel Rumpf xb...@web.de wrote: Am 3. März 2012 23:29 schrieb Paul Davis p...@linuxaudiosystems.com: OSC this general language is the whole problem. you can't send OSC to an OSC capable plugin or an external OSC application in any generalized sense, because there is no shared format for the messages. the sequence of messages that you record may make sense to Pure Data, but make absolutely no sense to, say, CSound. the motivation to develop the infrastructure for recording, playback, disk storage and editing of such messages is not very strong when any given sequence can only target one particular OSC receiver. the motivation isn't zero, to be clear. but it just isn't that strong. I don't know if it's of practical use for anyone else, but time and again I would have had good use for this apparently simple feature. If anyone knows a sequencer or DAW which can do what I sketched out above, please do tell me. OSC has been around since 1997, for crying out loud. It's about time that sequencers do more with it than just automatizing the transport controls. ;-) then its about time that people using OSC start defining some standardized messages. MIDI did this from the start, and for all of its limitations, its been a wild success. the OSC community has self-consciously avoided doing this - lets queue up another pointless argument about how to represent notes/frequencies/intervals - and as a result is still only a niche protocol with every transmitter and receiver defining their own messages. double fail ... I totally agree. Actually OSC missed the point of MIDI. (Or there was no intention to acctually become a replacement !? ) There should at least be an accepted, standardized way for transmission of MIDI data over OSC ! I've started a draft: http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/user/emrum/midi-osc-map Yes, OSC is useless as it comes out of the box. So is TCP. So is access to audio hardware. It's a transport mechanism. Look to libmapper for a way to make it generally useful. I've implemented something similar for useful OSC signaling in Non-*, but it's conceptually the same as libmapper and (currently imaginary) JACK OSC ports. Generic Input and output signals which can be connected to one another without requiring each party to be separately configured. And, for the record, liblo defines a MIDI datatype for transport of midi over OSC--although I don't see much point to doing that, as it merely combines the deficiencies of both. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 2:50 AM, Emanuel Rumpf xb...@web.de wrote: Am 4. März 2012 11:14 schrieb J. Liles malnour...@gmail.com: On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 11:14 PM, Emanuel Rumpf xb...@web.de wrote: There should at least be an accepted, standardized way for transmission of MIDI data over OSC ! I've started a draft: http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/user/emrum/midi-osc-map Yes, OSC is useless as it comes out of the box. So is TCP. So is access to audio hardware. It's a transport mechanism. Look to libmapper for a way to make it generally useful. I've implemented something similar for useful OSC signaling in Non-*, but it's conceptually the same as libmapper and (currently imaginary) JACK OSC ports. Generic Input and output signals which can be connected to one another without requiring each party to be separately configured. And, for the record, liblo defines a MIDI datatype for transport of midi over OSC--although I don't see much point to doing that, as it merely combines the deficiencies of both. True somehow. OTOH if most applications would have a _standardized_ mechanism to support musical control over OSC, there would be a small chance, that OSC could replace MIDI somewhere in the future. The chance for MIDI to improve seems very low, due to its technical limits. IRC Yamaha as an improved MIDI format for their digital pianos, but I wouldn't call that a standard. I personally don't think that the way notes are encoded is the primary limitation imposed by MIDI. A note is a frequency, an attack/decay modulation, and a duration. MIDI does an acceptable job of handling these. If you want more resolution, then the ultimate is a waveform... The way OSC is used, and in libmapper in particular, is to say things about the input device, not the music, which, as far as the input device is concerned, doesn't exist. Things like the low-resolution continuous variation of force applied to a button, or the position of a finger on the length of a resistive strip. These things have nothing to do with music, so the fact that there's no standard for notes is not a problem. The standard I propose (and use), as does libmapper, is that of Control Voltage floating point values between 0.0 and 1.0. Generally speaking, the neither the source nor the sink cares about the scale of the value, only that it varies between a minimum and a maximum. Users like to see the actual values, but it is a much more usable system if they are scaled to 0.0-1.0 on the wire. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 03/04/2012 03:31 AM, David Robillard wrote: However, I doubt Ardour ever will, nor do I think it even should, support sequencing of events that are transmitted by some mechanism other than Jack. That would be a gigantic inconsistent mess for more reasons than I feel like listing, and trying to use UDP or whatever directly in a DAW raises a very large number of very deep questions for no benefit (hell, anti-benefit, Jack rules). Integration with IP based OSC transport should happen via a separate Jack program. That makes perfect sense to me. As Paul pointed out in his response, the reason for this lack is that OSC simply doesn't do what 99.% of the people who use a sequencer want to do. 99.% of the world population is zero, I guess that's me, thanks. ;-) That's your take on what users want, I disagree. Add OSC tracks to Ardour and people will find good uses for it, that's my take. Blindly recording events with no editing or display ability simply isn't that useful, and certainly doesn't constitute a MIDI replacement. Why should it be recorded blindly? It's not rocket science to come up with a convenient interface to edit and visually represent something like generic OSC data. In fact, Ardour automation would almost fit the bill if there was a way to record and play the data from/to external devices and applications in a way which doesn't take the MIDI detour. You can argue that OSC is too limited all day, but in any case it's better than 7 bit values with 7 bit addresses. I'd be more than happy to use any other semi-standard format which offers this and has at least some support in applications. But what we have right now for transferring control data is MIDI and OSC. If you know about anything else please do tell me. I can't drive a Pd patch with a data format that doesn't exist. I can get control data from OSC devices and feed that to Pd, however. Just bad luck that none of the major DAWs supports it directly, so I have to fit my square OSC peg into the round MIDI hole to make that work. ;-) Albert -- Dr. Albert Graf Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany Email: dr.gr...@t-online.de, a...@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de WWW:http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 03/04/2012 03:47 AM, David Robillard wrote: I probably said this. Internally it's like Jack in most of the important places, i.e. the actual type of the event payload is pretty much irrelevant. The biggest problem to solve is the on-disk format. That shouldn't be a real problem. OSC is already serialized after all, and uses network byte order. So you can just take those blobs and save them to a file and read them back again. Control data (i.e. automation) in Ardour is its own thing, not even really MIDI related. I co-opted the existing automation system as much as possible deliberately for this reason. It could be made to *send* OSC messages for curves pretty easily. If it can be made to also record OSC messages and if I can pick the OSC addresses that I want, then this would probably satisfy most of my needs. Albert -- Dr. Albert Graf Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany Email: dr.gr...@t-online.de, a...@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de WWW:http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 3/4/12, J. Liles malnour...@gmail.com wrote: I personally don't think that the way notes are encoded is the primary limitation imposed by MIDI. A note is a frequency, an attack/decay modulation, and a duration. apparently you're forgetting or have not been a part of the many debates with the music technology community about how to define a note. personally i'm happy with what you wrote, but i know several people who have made cogent arguments that defining notes in terms of frequencies completely misses one of the most musical semantics. The way OSC is used, and in libmapper in particular, is to say things about the input device, not the music, which, as far as the input device is concerned, doesn't exist. as as receiver of OSC, i'd be entirely happy with such a standard. the problem for users is that it leaves the mappings unspecified, and although there are some clever solutions for this (several of them), from a user's perspective it always adds an extra layer of complexity. contrast with MIDI, where almost all the messages that most people will generate have a defined meaning even from the sender's perspective (though sure, the receiver can still map it to something else if it wants to). ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
Am 4. März 2012 14:38 schrieb Paul Davis p...@linuxaudiosystems.com: ... the problem for users is that it leaves the mappings unspecified, and although there are some clever solutions for this (several of them), from a user's perspective it always adds an extra layer of complexity. contrast with MIDI, where almost all the messages that most people will generate have a defined meaning even from the sender's perspective (though sure, the receiver can still map it to something else if it wants to). Exactly. Once upon the time, GM was helpful. If you made your sequencer play a BassDrum, on one synth, it would play a BassDrum on a different GM machine too, without any configuration. Today MIDI + GM appear too limited. We need 3 drum-kits, 10 snares, 52 channels, 64 bit spoiled musicians ;) With current OSC, one would have to configure the headstrong soup of both sender and receiver. -- E.R. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Sun, 2012-03-04 at 14:14 +0100, Albert Graef wrote: On 03/04/2012 03:47 AM, David Robillard wrote: I probably said this. Internally it's like Jack in most of the important places, i.e. the actual type of the event payload is pretty much irrelevant. The biggest problem to solve is the on-disk format. That shouldn't be a real problem. OSC is already serialized after all, and uses network byte order. So you can just take those blobs and save them to a file and read them back again. I would assume that any realtime local transport via something like Jack or plugins would eschew the network byte order thing since that's quite a massive amount of overhead for no reason. You'd have to to actually send it over a network protocol or disk though, of course. Sure, given that you already have a POD serialization, inventing such a format wouldn't be hard. Perhaps just invent a RIFF chunk for them. Time stamps may be a question for sample accuracy. Control data (i.e. automation) in Ardour is its own thing, not even really MIDI related. I co-opted the existing automation system as much as possible deliberately for this reason. It could be made to *send* OSC messages for curves pretty easily. If it can be made to also record OSC messages and if I can pick the OSC addresses that I want What do you mean by pick the OSC addresses that I want? -dr ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Sun, 2012-03-04 at 08:38 -0500, Paul Davis wrote: On 3/4/12, J. Liles malnour...@gmail.com wrote: I personally don't think that the way notes are encoded is the primary limitation imposed by MIDI. A note is a frequency, an attack/decay modulation, and a duration. apparently you're forgetting or have not been a part of the many debates with the music technology community about how to define a note. personally i'm happy with what you wrote, but i know several people who have made cogent arguments that defining notes in terms of frequencies completely misses one of the most musical semantics. To me, one of the primary limitations about MIDI is the lack of ability to control individual notes. For example, a good protocol could let you start at C, slide up to A, do some vibrato, etc., e.g. you could draw lines in your sequencer. Identifying the note by frequency would preclude this. Note numbers are better. The way OSC is used, and in libmapper in particular, is to say things about the input device, not the music, which, as far as the input device is concerned, doesn't exist. as as receiver of OSC, i'd be entirely happy with such a standard. the problem for users is that it leaves the mappings unspecified, and although there are some clever solutions for this (several of them), from a user's perspective it always adds an extra layer of complexity. contrast with MIDI, where almost all the messages that most people will generate have a defined meaning even from the sender's perspective (though sure, the receiver can still map it to something else if it wants to). The thing is, reality has turned MIDI in practice to everything being learn-based (except notes) anyway. Most of the crap in MIDI can just go away, since the use case is send a whatever with a number(s) in it somewhere the receiver can pick up on. There are a few things that need to be standardized, like notes and transport control, but I think everything having a universal meaning is at best dubious, and likely a mistake. It is inevitable that you need learn and/or controller mappings anyway, so the protocol can be a simple description of what's happening on the *sender*. What the receiver does with it is its own business. This is a pretty controller-centric opinion, but I don't think OSC is really good for much beyond that anyway, and the only cases that it might be (controlling Pd and such) the (power) user is designing their own messages anyway so it's a non-issue. -dr ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
Guys, can you explain to me, who is not very well aware of OSC and MIDI debates, why not come up with at least a Linux Audio OSC standard for notes and just use that? -- Louigi Verona http://www.louigiverona.ru/ ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out! (Emanuel
The chance for MIDI to improve seems very low, due to its technical limits. HD-Protocol MIDI is coming, albeit with painfully slow progress. Best Regards, Jeff ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 03/04/2012 06:32 PM, David Robillard wrote: What do you mean by pick the OSC addresses that I want? I mean those symbols with the slashes that are the first part of any atomic OSC message like /foo/bar 4711.0. Usually such a symbol would denote the particular control that the value applies to. When using OSC as input to or output from automation, obviously I'd have to specify which OSC addresses I want to be mapped to which automation parameter. However, I'd actually prefer a kind of separate OSC track which would be connected to OSC inputs and outputs and listens for all OSC messages on its OSC inputs, no matter what the addresses are. So (an ASCII representation of) the contents of such a track might look like # delta OSC addr value 0 /foo/bar 0.78 10 /reverb1/wet 0.3 5 /foo/bar 0.66 etc. etc. By these means the OSC track would just record any messages that it receives on its inputs, and I might then map them to the appropriate automation parameters on other (audio and MIDI) tracks in the DAW, or just have them played back via the OSC outputs assigned to the track, in order to drive some other application like Pd. Dave, will you be at LAC in April? I'd really like to discuss this in more detail with you, but it's much easier to do this in a room together and with a whiteboard and a data projector within reach. ;-) If there's enough interest, maybe we could do a control beyond midi brainstorming session at LAC? Maybe Rui wants to join us there, and I know that some guys at CCRMA are also interested in this. I guess that the organizers can allocate us a time slot and a room with the necessary equipment if we just ask for it. Albert P.S.: Rui, apologies for hitchhiking your thread. I hope that you will forgive me over a glass of good Californian wine. ;-) -- Dr. Albert Graf Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany Email: dr.gr...@t-online.de, a...@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de WWW:http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Sun, 2012-03-04 at 22:38 +0300, Louigi Verona wrote: Guys, can you explain to me, who is not very well aware of OSC and MIDI debates, why not come up with at least a Linux Audio OSC standard for notes and just use that? Chicken Egg problem. (Never trust a spec not actually used by anyone) -dr ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Sun, 2012-03-04 at 22:27 +0100, Albert Graef wrote: On 03/04/2012 06:32 PM, David Robillard wrote: What do you mean by pick the OSC addresses that I want? I mean those symbols with the slashes that are the first part of any atomic OSC message like /foo/bar 4711.0. Usually such a symbol would denote the particular control that the value applies to. When using OSC as input to or output from automation, obviously I'd have to specify which OSC addresses I want to be mapped to which automation parameter. Ah. Dave, will you be at LAC in April? I'd really like to discuss this in more detail with you, but it's much easier to do this in a room together and with a whiteboard and a data projector within reach. ;-) If there's enough interest, maybe we could do a control beyond midi brainstorming session at LAC? Maybe Rui wants to join us there, and I know that some guys at CCRMA are also interested in this. I guess that the organizers can allocate us a time slot and a room with the necessary equipment if we just ask for it. Indeed it would be a much easier way to bang things out, but unfortunately I won't be attending this year. Perhaps next... -dr ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 03/04/2012 09:27 PM, Albert Graef wrote: P.S.: Rui, apologies for hitchhiking your thread. I hope that you will forgive me over a glass of good Californian wine. ;-) no worries. given the length of the thread i think i'll take two please ;) cheers -- rncbc aka Rui Nuno Capela rn...@rncbc.org ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 03/04/2012 11:26 PM, Rui Nuno Capela wrote: no worries. given the length of the thread i think i'll take two please ;) Ok, granted. I'd even make that two bottles if you implement OSC tracks in Qtractor. ;-) Albert -- Dr. Albert Graf Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany Email: dr.gr...@t-online.de, a...@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de WWW:http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:47 AM, Albert Graef dr.gr...@t-online.de wrote: On 03/04/2012 11:26 PM, Rui Nuno Capela wrote: no worries. given the length of the thread i think i'll take two please ;) Ok, granted. I'd even make that two bottles if you implement OSC tracks in Qtractor. ;-) Albert I'm chiming in late here, but it is a topic I've thought about a little having experimented in the domain. Given the open-endedness of OSC, I've always thought it makes more sense to implement some kind of plugin based translators, as it were, something like the ladosc ladspa plugins but with more flexibility and eliminating the need for both a sender and receiver plugin. For instance, if one were to implement an LV2 OSC instrument, you automatically get multi-host compatibility without having to expect the host dev's to agree on a standard as such. The plugin would simply need some kind of sensible interface to define namespaces for the translated midi events that the host would be sending to the plugin via the standard sequencer interface. This way, discrete and continuous events could be mapped to OSC output within the UI of the plugin. I hope I'm making sense. Alas, this is more than I can do, but if a developer were feeling up to it I'd be more than happy to line up for testing. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Mon, 2012-03-05 at 09:40 +0900, michael noble wrote: [...] I'm chiming in late here, but it is a topic I've thought about a little having experimented in the domain. Given the open-endedness of OSC, I've always thought it makes more sense to implement some kind of plugin based translators, as it were, something like the ladosc ladspa plugins but with more flexibility and eliminating the need for both a sender and receiver plugin. For instance, if one were to implement an LV2 OSC instrument, you automatically get multi-host compatibility without having to expect the host dev's to agree on a standard as such. The plugin would simply need some kind of sensible interface to define namespaces for the translated midi events that the host would be sending to the plugin via the standard sequencer interface. This way, discrete and continuous events could be mapped to OSC output within the UI of the plugin. I hope I'm making sense. I don't really grasp what you're getting at here, or what MIDI has to do with it, etc. However, using plugins to process/filter/whatever OSC messages is natural (same thing for Jack apps). You can use any event types in LV2. What you'd need to work with OSC in plugins is a simple implementation capable of reading and writing OSC messages in realtime. Liblo is too heavy for that. Reading is probably easy. Writing is a bit trickier, I struggled with inventing a decent API for a similar thing (LV2 atoms, not OSC, but same idea), but eventually arrived at an append-based API which works pretty well. I call this the forge API for atoms. A similar scheme could work for OSC, e.g hard real-time code to write the message /foo/bar if 1 3.0 could look something like: OSC_Forge forge; osc_forge_set_output(output_butter, n_bytes); OSC_Msg msg; osc_forge_msg_start(msg, /foo/bar); osc_forge_int(1); osc_forge_float(3.0); osc_forge_msg_finish(msg) One unfortunate thing with OSC is the size of the type string must be known in advance[1], so you might have to pass that to osc_forge_msg. Nesting (bundles) can be handled automagically, the forge maintains a stack (without allocating, of course). Such a thing can be implemented in a single smallish header. I think a very simple stand-alone API to deal with OSC message would go a long way towards making OSC more feasible for plugins or Jack apps. -dr [1] I consider this a mistake in OSC. The type tag should precede each argument so messages can be built sequentially by simply appending successive arguments. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:16 AM, David Robillard d...@drobilla.net wrote: I don't really grasp what you're getting at here, or what MIDI has to do with it, etc. However, using plugins to process/filter/whatever OSC messages is natural (same thing for Jack apps). You can use any event types in LV2. That'll teach me for waffling before my morning coffee. I really meant nothing more than saying that an instrument plugin that can send OSC could be triggered via a midi sequencer. Of course, that doesn't do anything about the issue of being able to record OSC, and in the end, also isn't that much easier than sending midi from the sequencer to say PD and letting PD do the translating to OSC messages. -m ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 03/03/2012 07:36 AM, Albert Graef wrote: I don't see why an OSC track should make any assumptions about the semantics of OSC messages. For optimized representation and editing. Avoiding artificial restrictions can give you both freedom and clumsiness ;) -- Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Sat, 2012-03-03 at 07:36 +0100, Albert Graef wrote: On 03/03/2012 06:50 AM, David Robillard wrote: There is also the chicken egg problem, last I checked there wasn't an OSC note standard in use anywhere to have Ardour send... I don't see why an OSC track should make any assumptions about the semantics of OSC messages. It should just treat it as control data and allow to record it from an OSC client (which might also be an LV2 plugin which produces OSC messages), edit it, and play it back to another OSC server (or LV2 plugin which consumes OSC messages). Hm? How would a sequencer display or edit OSC data without even knowing how to represent a note or a control? Sure, you could just implement dumb raw OSC recording and playback, but there's little point in using a DAW for that (not to mention little practical musical use) -dr ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 03/03/2012 08:25 PM, David Robillard wrote: Sure, you could just implement dumb raw OSC recording and playback, but there's little point in using a DAW for that (not to mention little practical musical use) But that's exactly what I want. For starters, even just simple messages consisting of address and POD (like a double value) would be useful. The data might originally be generated with a multitouch OSC device, say, and would be recorded by the DAW, which would also let me play back the data, sending it either to an OSC-capable plugin or an external OSC application (Pd, say) which would know what to do with it. Call it automation, if you want. But I think of it as sequencing of OSC messages; I need the data to be on its own track where I can edit, cut, copy and move it around as needed. DAW and sequencer programs are good at these things; that's what they are for. And no, I don't want to use MIDI instead, where I have to cram everything into control changes or (N)RPNS and loose both resolution and the descriptive OSC addresses. I don't know if it's of practical use for anyone else, but time and again I would have had good use for this apparently simple feature. If anyone knows a sequencer or DAW which can do what I sketched out above, please do tell me. OSC has been around since 1997, for crying out loud. It's about time that sequencers do more with it than just automatizing the transport controls. ;-) Albert -- Dr. Albert Graf Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany Email: dr.gr...@t-online.de, a...@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de WWW:http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 5:20 PM, Albert Graef dr.gr...@t-online.de wrote: On 03/03/2012 08:25 PM, David Robillard wrote: Sure, you could just implement dumb raw OSC recording and playback, but there's little point in using a DAW for that (not to mention little practical musical use) But that's exactly what I want. For starters, even just simple messages consisting of address and POD (like a double value) would be useful. The data might originally be generated with a multitouch OSC device, say, and would be recorded by the DAW, which would also let me play back the data, sending it either to an OSC-capable plugin or an external OSC application this general language is the whole problem. you can't send OSC to an OSC capable plugin or an external OSC application in any generalized sense, because there is no shared format for the messages. the sequence of messages that you record may make sense to Pure Data, but make absolutely no sense to, say, CSound. the motivation to develop the infrastructure for recording, playback, disk storage and editing of such messages is not very strong when any given sequence can only target one particular OSC receiver. the motivation isn't zero, to be clear. but it just isn't that strong. I don't know if it's of practical use for anyone else, but time and again I would have had good use for this apparently simple feature. If anyone knows a sequencer or DAW which can do what I sketched out above, please do tell me. OSC has been around since 1997, for crying out loud. It's about time that sequencers do more with it than just automatizing the transport controls. ;-) then its about time that people using OSC start defining some standardized messages. MIDI did this from the start, and for all of its limitations, its been a wild success. the OSC community has self-consciously avoided doing this - lets queue up another pointless argument about how to represent notes/frequencies/intervals - and as a result is still only a niche protocol with every transmitter and receiver defining their own messages. double fail ... Albert -- Dr. Albert Graf Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany Email: dr.gr...@t-online.de, a...@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de WWW: http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 03/03/2012 11:20 PM, Albert Graef wrote: On 03/03/2012 08:25 PM, David Robillard wrote: Sure, you could just implement dumb raw OSC recording and playback, but there's little point in using a DAW for that (not to mention little practical musical use) But that's exactly what I want. For starters, even just simple messages consisting of address and POD (like a double value) would be useful. The data might originally be generated with a multitouch OSC device, say, and would be recorded by the DAW, which would also let me play back the data, sending it either to an OSC-capable plugin or an external OSC application (Pd, say) which would know what to do with it. Call it automation, if you want. But I think of it as sequencing of OSC messages; I need the data to be on its own track where I can edit, cut, copy and move it around as needed. DAW and sequencer programs are good at these things; that's what they are for. And no, I don't want to use MIDI instead, where I have to cram everything into control changes or (N)RPNS and loose both resolution and the descriptive OSC addresses. I don't know if it's of practical use for anyone else, but time and again I would have had good use for this apparently simple feature. If anyone knows a sequencer or DAW which can do what I sketched out above, please do tell me. OSC has been around since 1997, for crying out loud. It's about time that sequencers do more with it than just automatizing the transport controls. ;-) Albert Hi Albert, I use Algoscore for sequencing OSC. http://kymatica.com/Software/AlgoScore There was a presentation at Piksel a few years back about this one: https://github.com/sentinelweb/TimeLine-OSC and http://www.iannix.org/ may do the job as well. ..but neither aims for, or comes close to DAW functionality. robin ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 03/03/2012 11:29 PM, Paul Davis wrote: you can't send OSC to an OSC capable plugin or an external OSC application in any generalized sense, because there is no shared format for the messages. Yes, there is. It's the OSC format itself. If you want to keep it simple, you could boil it down to atomic OSC messages (i.e., POD payload, no bundles). If you can support that in a DAW, I'm sure that there will be plenty of applications which can make good use of this. (Actually just simple pairs of OSC addresses and double values would be good enough for a lot of stuff IMHO.) then its about time that people using OSC start defining some standardized messages. Well, what you see as a problem, I see as a virtue. It gives me the flexibility to just pick my own set of messages for the application at hand. The sequencer shouldn't have to care about the particular set of OSC addresses I'm using. MIDI did this from the start, and for all of its limitations, its been a wild success. Nobody argues that, certainly not me. For much stuff we do, MIDI is quite adequate. But there's also the more advanced stuff where OSC is better suited or maybe just more convenient. That's certainly the case if you're using an OSC device like the Lemur, or if you're building a dsp plugin with Faust and don't want to go through the tedium of handpicking MIDI controller assignments. Anyway, Paul, I understand that you have plenty of other important stuff on your TODO list for Ardour3. I'm not complaining. The reason that I brought up Ardour in this context was that I seem to recall reading something on the Ardour website, about Ardour3 already having the right infrastructure which would make it easy to add some kind of OSC tracks. Maybe I've misread that remark, though. Albert -- Dr. Albert Graf Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany Email: dr.gr...@t-online.de, a...@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de WWW:http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 03/03/2012 11:36 PM, Robin Gareus wrote: I use Algoscore for sequencing OSC. http://kymatica.com/Software/AlgoScore Hi Robin, thanks for the pointers. Yes I know about AlgoScore and Iannix, but that's not quite what I had in mind. There was a presentation at Piksel a few years back about this one: https://github.com/sentinelweb/TimeLine-OSC Interesting, I don't remember seeing this. Unfortunately, the original website is down and the video on vimeo has lousy sound, but I'll have to see whether I can get this up and running. ..but neither aims for, or comes close to DAW functionality. Alas. Maybe I'm a bit old-fashioned, but for recording and playing back stuff on a timeline, nothing beats a DAW-like interface for me. :) Albert -- Dr. Albert Graf Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany Email: dr.gr...@t-online.de, a...@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de WWW:http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Sat, 2012-03-03 at 23:20 +0100, Albert Graef wrote: On 03/03/2012 08:25 PM, David Robillard wrote: Sure, you could just implement dumb raw OSC recording and playback, but there's little point in using a DAW for that (not to mention little practical musical use) But that's exactly what I want. For starters, even just simple messages consisting of address and POD (like a double value) would be useful. The data might originally be generated with a multitouch OSC device, say, and would be recorded by the DAW, which would also let me play back the data I suppose this would be useful in some limited sense. However, I doubt Ardour ever will, nor do I think it even should, support sequencing of events that are transmitted by some mechanism other than Jack. That would be a gigantic inconsistent mess for more reasons than I feel like listing, and trying to use UDP or whatever directly in a DAW raises a very large number of very deep questions for no benefit (hell, anti-benefit, Jack rules). Integration with IP based OSC transport should happen via a separate Jack program. Put in other terms, I think Ardour should support OSC Messages. Not OSC in UDP/TCP/IP. If the community solves Jack OSC, it will get Ardour OSC pretty quickly. However, I am kind of through with OSC personally, so I don't intend to put any real effort into the Jack side of that problem. OSC has been around since 1997, for crying out loud. It's about time that sequencers do more with it than just automatizing the transport controls. ;-) As Paul pointed out in his response, the reason for this lack is that OSC simply doesn't do what 99.% of the people who use a sequencer want to do. Blindly recording events with no editing or display ability simply isn't that useful, and certainly doesn't constitute a MIDI replacement. That said, it's not like a note standard would actually be difficult. It will (well, may) get actually made when someone actually needs it. Since we live in a somewhat closed and more flexible world, the Jack universe could be the place where that happens. I doubt it will elsewhere, the commercial guys have gone with custom incompatible USB protocols for hardware, and simply don't care about software interop. -dr ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
Am 3. März 2012 23:29 schrieb Paul Davis p...@linuxaudiosystems.com: OSC this general language is the whole problem. you can't send OSC to an OSC capable plugin or an external OSC application in any generalized sense, because there is no shared format for the messages. the sequence of messages that you record may make sense to Pure Data, but make absolutely no sense to, say, CSound. the motivation to develop the infrastructure for recording, playback, disk storage and editing of such messages is not very strong when any given sequence can only target one particular OSC receiver. the motivation isn't zero, to be clear. but it just isn't that strong. I don't know if it's of practical use for anyone else, but time and again I would have had good use for this apparently simple feature. If anyone knows a sequencer or DAW which can do what I sketched out above, please do tell me. OSC has been around since 1997, for crying out loud. It's about time that sequencers do more with it than just automatizing the transport controls. ;-) then its about time that people using OSC start defining some standardized messages. MIDI did this from the start, and for all of its limitations, its been a wild success. the OSC community has self-consciously avoided doing this - lets queue up another pointless argument about how to represent notes/frequencies/intervals - and as a result is still only a niche protocol with every transmitter and receiver defining their own messages. double fail ... I totally agree. Actually OSC missed the point of MIDI. (Or there was no intention to acctually become a replacement !? ) There should at least be an accepted, standardized way for transmission of MIDI data over OSC ! I've started a draft: http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/user/emrum/midi-osc-map -- E.R. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 03/01/2012 07:40 PM, Rui Nuno Capela wrote: So here it goes: Ardour is a full fledged, pro-level DAW and, for crying out loud on its own, the flagship of the free/open-source pro-audio fleet and movement, not only Linux anymore nowadays. It goes without saying that Ardour offers an abundance of features, but Qtractor's MIDI support is very good, its audio support is more than just adequate, and its big plus is that it's so easy to learn and use. Also, despite the alpha sticker that you keep putting on it, it's been working very well for me. In any case, we can be happy that we have both. :) Now what's still needed is full-fledged OSC support. I mean not just automation, but real OSC tracks with full recording, playback and editing capabilities a la MIDI. We've briefly discussed this on the Qtractor mailing list, and I think that I've read somewhere that Ardour3 has been designed with that in mind as well. But are there any concrete plans to add an OSC track type to Ardour? That would be a killer feature, at least for me. * Panic command button (NEW) Can you read my mind? :) I was about to ask for this, and now you've already implemented it! Nice. One thing I've been wondering about... Could you please elaborate on what exactly the --enable-lv2-state-files configure option is for? That was marked as experimental in previous svn revisions, and is one of the very few options which are disabled by default. Rui, thanks for all your hard work, and see you @ CCRMA! Albert -- Dr. Albert Graf Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany Email: dr.gr...@t-online.de, a...@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de WWW:http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
Hey guys! I would have to respectfully disagree with Rui as to amateurishness of his sequencer. Having less features or being geared towards specific workflow or being more specialized rather than all in one hardly makes a tool a home studio tool. As for people comparing it to Ardour, I would say this is an inevitable thing ;) In my view both sequencers are important and both have their own place in the Linux Audio world. -- Louigi Verona http://www.louigiverona.ru/ ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 03/02/2012 05:41 PM, Albert Graef wrote: One thing I've been wondering about... Could you please elaborate on what exactly the --enable-lv2-state-files configure option is for? That was marked as experimental in previous svn revisions, and is one of the very few options which are disabled by default. it is disabled like so because current implementation is fubar on qtractor a not so short answer: the lv2-state-files extension feature it's all about making lv2 plugin full state serialized through session data files and folders, porbably making it all portable across machines and stuff. ardour might work this way (all session media adata is under a session directory), but qtractor doesn't (all media files are links to anywhere on your file-system, until you the user say he/she wants to store them later in a .qtz zip/archive, being that an option, not the norm) as things are atm. if you turn it on at configure time, the lv2-state extension won't live to its prospect from qtractor pov. :) to my knowledge, linuxsampler-lv2 is the only one which supports all that, provided you source it from the bleeding-edgy svn trunk. and now for the fun part: drobilla might ask sooner or later to fubarize all that xD scnr. Rui, thanks for all your hard work, and see you @ CCRMA! it's me who should thank cheers -- rncbc aka Rui Nuno Capela rn...@rncbc.org ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On Fri, 2012-03-02 at 18:41 +0100, Albert Graef wrote: On 03/01/2012 07:40 PM, Rui Nuno Capela wrote: So here it goes: Ardour is a full fledged, pro-level DAW and, for crying out loud on its own, the flagship of the free/open-source pro-audio fleet and movement, not only Linux anymore nowadays. It goes without saying that Ardour offers an abundance of features, but Qtractor's MIDI support is very good, its audio support is more than just adequate, and its big plus is that it's so easy to learn and use. Also, despite the alpha sticker that you keep putting on it, it's been working very well for me. In any case, we can be happy that we have both. :) Now what's still needed is full-fledged OSC support. I mean not just automation, but real OSC tracks with full recording, playback and editing capabilities a la MIDI. We've briefly discussed this on the Qtractor mailing list, and I think that I've read somewhere that Ardour3 has been designed with that in mind as well. But are there any concrete plans to add an OSC track type to Ardour? That would be a killer feature, at least for me. Not really, though it wouldn't be all that hard if Jack had a generic event API like it should. Unfortunately it doesn't so there's that roadblock in the way[1]. There is also the chicken egg problem, last I checked there wasn't an OSC note standard in use anywhere to have Ardour send... -dr [1] Though logistically the implementation couldn't care less what kind of bytes are in a message; basically the function names are just stupid. We'll probably end up sending non-MIDI stuff around with jack_midi_* functions, or copy/pasting the entire API. Lovely. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
On 03/03/2012 06:50 AM, David Robillard wrote: There is also the chicken egg problem, last I checked there wasn't an OSC note standard in use anywhere to have Ardour send... I don't see why an OSC track should make any assumptions about the semantics of OSC messages. It should just treat it as control data and allow to record it from an OSC client (which might also be an LV2 plugin which produces OSC messages), edit it, and play it back to another OSC server (or LV2 plugin which consumes OSC messages). Albert -- Dr. Albert Graf Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany Email: dr.gr...@t-online.de, a...@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de WWW:http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
[LAD] [ANN] Qtractor 0.5.4 - Echo Victor shouts out!
Howdy, There's no victory over anything whatsoever. Read it again, it's just a codename. If that serves anything at all, to my own defense that is, Qtractor is still a pet project hobby of mine, as all things in Linux audio world for that matter. There's been too many saying and comparing Ardour vs. Qtractor. I'm seeing if often said in too many sentences lately and, believe me, I cannot stand comfortable with that saying no more. So here it goes: Ardour is a full fledged, pro-level DAW and, for crying out loud on its own, the flagship of the free/open-source pro-audio fleet and movement, not only Linux anymore nowadays. On the other hand, Qtractor is 'a sequencer' (hinted by its own subtitle, in case you didn't notice) with a twist and a few of a DAW features. And it strictly runs on the Linux platform only and most important yet, it has been targeted to a (re)creational personal home-studio audience ever since. Heard about the 'techno-boy bedroom' (with a guitar) folk? Well, that's exactly what it is, from day zero. Hope you all get the picture ;) Enough whining. Qtractor 0.5.4 (echo victor) is out and is shouting out loud! Release highlights: * Panic command button (NEW) * Improved audio/MIDI file resource management (NEW) * MIDI SysEx for instrument plugins (NEW) * MIDI Controller auto-hook option (NEW) * MIDI Tools resize ramp (NEW) * Revised plugin search directory paths (FIX) * MIDI zero-duration note-on/off queueing (FIX) * Audio linked-clips looping (FIX) Website: http://qtractor.sourceforge.net Project page: http://sourceforge.net/projects/qtractor Downloads: - source tarball: http://downloads.sourceforge.net/qtractor/qtractor-0.5.4.tar.gz - source package (openSUSE 12.1): http://downloads.sourceforge.net/qtractor/qtractor-0.5.4-3.rncbc.suse121.src.rpm - binary packages (openSUSE 12.1): http://downloads.sourceforge.net/qtractor/qtractor-0.5.4-3.rncbc.suse121.i586.rpm http://downloads.sourceforge.net/qtractor/qtractor-0.5.4-3.rncbc.suse121.x86_64.rpm - long time ago, far far away: user manual: http://downloads.sourceforge.net/qtractor/qtractor-0.3.0-user-manual.pdf Weblog (upstream support): http://www.rncbc.org License: Qtractor is free, open-source software, distributed under the terms of the GNU General Public License (GPL) version 2 or later. Change-log: - Direct access plugin/insert parameter changing tool-tip added. - A Transport/Panic action enters the scene, in a nostalgic attempt to emulate the all-MIDI-track-shut-off command of those drop-dead and primordial MIDI sequencers of all time. Now finally a keyboard shortcut and mouse click-away ;) - MIDI editor command redo/undo adjustment now effective on all other channel events besides notes, which overlap at the same event time. - A new File/Unlink menu action is now made available from the MIDI clip editor (aka. piano-roll) for detaching the current linked/ref-counted MIDI clip into a new auto-incremented SMF filename. - Some audio/MIDI content/media-file resource management is entering the scene, taking care of some file-system house-keeping, this gets evident on unsaved/dead recorded files being automaticaly removed from the file-system, on session close. - Killed the old and entirely deprecated LV2 Save/Restore and Persist feature/extensions support. - Auto-monitored MIDI events are now merged/queued correctly into the instrument plugin playback queue, avoiding sudden crashes, hopefully. - Awesome patch from Albert Graef, thanks, which makes most MIDI SysEx to get through MIDI instrument plugins at last; applies to DSSI and LV2 plugins only. - LV2 URID map/unmap feature support added. - Plugin parameter value redo/undo command aliasing fix. - Double-clicking in plugin list item now show/activates the plugin's editor window (was toggling visibility/activation). - Plugin path settings have been fixed again, with special regards to an effective LV2_PATH environment variable settlement. - Session properties dialog now asks to create a new session directory if the given one does not currently exist. - MIDI note names and their respective octave numbers are now compliant with the ISO standard where middle C (60) is now C4 (was C3). - Fixed audible glitch/pop at the beginning of an audio clip with long quadratic or cubic shaped fade-in (reported by Lougi Verona, thanks). - MIDI Controller Auto-Hook patch by Alessandro Preziosi, thanks. - Make sure all MIDI note-off are always queued after their respective note-on events when buffering for MIDI input of instrument plugins, event though for zero duration MIDI note events (hopefully fixing the hanging notes bug #3476124, as reported by Albert Graef, thanks). - LV2 MIDI-fx plugin support has been repaired. - Single-track clip selection logic corrected again, fixing multi-clip selection drag/move across an odd number of distinct tracks (after a bug report by Louigi Verona, on linux-audio-dev, thanks). - MMC
