Re: Red Hat SysAdmin Course
--0-481231148-1157694379=:3117 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Actually, the Red Hat course I was considering does not result, by itself, in any certification. It is part of a sequence of courses (RH Essentials, SysAdmin, Shell Scripting minicourse, Networks/Security) leading to certification. And the last step in the certification process itself is supposedly very demanding, an 8-hour exam that includes hands-on tasks and problems. You can check out the Red Hat site's training section. The indications from John Bryce and Red Hat tell me that the course is indeed knowledge or skills oriented, not just for certification. Then again, I have no personal experience with the course or its cachet in the field. Hence, my inquiries. Also, are there other frameworks out there (in Israel) for Linux instruction? Thanks! Oron Peled [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We all do hope that the Technion give you a little bit more than certify that you have read the right books... A disclaimer: I am training for many years the corporate world in all aspects of Unix/Linux systems, so I am quite familiar with the driving forces you mentioned. Luckily, all the courses I gave (sys-admin, net-admin, kernel, Perl, what'snot) where not certification oriented, but rather knowledge oriented. This way I know that most of my students actually came for *learning*. - Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. --0-481231148-1157694379=:3117 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Actually, the Red Hat course I was considering does not result, by itself, in any certification.nbsp; It is part of a sequence of courses (RH Essentials, SysAdmin, Shell Scripting minicourse, Networks/Security) leading to certification.nbsp; And the last step in the certification process itself is supposedly very demanding, an 8-hour exam that includes hands-on tasks and problems.nbsp; You can check out the Red Hat site's training section.brbrThe indications from John Bryce and Red Hat tell me that the course is indeed knowledge or skills oriented, not just for certification.nbsp; Then again, I have no personal experience with the course or its cachet in the field.nbsp; Hence, my inquiries.brbrAlso, are there other frameworks out there (in Israel) for Linux instruction?brbrThanks!brbrbiOron Peled lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt;/i/b wrote:blockquote class=replbq style=border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;brWe all do hope that the Technion give you a little bit more thanbrcertify that you have read the right books...brbrA disclaimer: I am training for many years the corporate worldbrin all aspects of Unix/Linux systems, so I am quite familiarbrwith the driving forces you mentioned. Luckily, all thebrcourses I gave (sys-admin, net-admin, kernel, Perl, what'snot)brwhere not certification oriented, but rather knowledge oriented.brThis way I know that most of my students actually came for *learning*.br/blockquotebrp#32; hr size=1Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. a href=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com; Great rates starting at 1¢/min. --0-481231148-1157694379=:3117-- = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat SysAdmin Course
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Hi Michael,
Sounds like the course is a good idea. You can probably learn more
effectively through the course than by yourself. It can jump-start your
Linux career, so go for it. But don't expect it to cut much ice with
employers who need really qualified or really motivated Linux engineers.
For that you'll need the track record that I mentioned previouosly.
- yba
On Thu, 7 Sep 2006, Michael Jaffe wrote:
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 22:46:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Jaffe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: linux-il@linux.org.il
Subject: Re: Red Hat SysAdmin Course
--0-481231148-1157694379=:3117
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Actually, the Red Hat course I was considering does not result, by itself, in
any certification. It is part of a sequence of courses (RH Essentials,
SysAdmin, Shell Scripting minicourse, Networks/Security) leading to
certification. And the last step in the certification process itself is
supposedly very demanding, an 8-hour exam that includes hands-on tasks and
problems. You can check out the Red Hat site's training section.
The indications from John Bryce and Red Hat tell me that the course is indeed
knowledge or skills oriented, not just for certification. Then again, I have
no personal experience with the course or its cachet in the field. Hence, my
inquiries.
Also, are there other frameworks out there (in Israel) for Linux instruction?
Thanks!
Oron Peled [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
We all do hope that the Technion give you a little bit more than
certify that you have read the right books...
A disclaimer: I am training for many years the corporate world
in all aspects of Unix/Linux systems, so I am quite familiar
with the driving forces you mentioned. Luckily, all the
courses I gave (sys-admin, net-admin, kernel, Perl, what'snot)
where not certification oriented, but rather knowledge oriented.
This way I know that most of my students actually came for *learning*.
-
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
starting at 1¢/min.
--0-481231148-1157694379=:3117
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Actually, the Red Hat course I was considering does not result, by itself, in
any certification.nbsp; It is part of a sequence of courses (RH Essentials,
SysAdmin, Shell Scripting minicourse, Networks/Security) leading to
certification.nbsp; And the last step in the certification process itself is
supposedly very demanding, an 8-hour exam that includes hands-on tasks and
problems.nbsp; You can check out the Red Hat site's training
section.brbrThe indications from John Bryce and Red Hat tell me that the
course is indeed knowledge or skills oriented, not just for
certification.nbsp; Then again, I have no personal experience with the
course or its cachet in the field.nbsp; Hence, my inquiries.brbrAlso,
are there other frameworks out there (in Israel) for Linux
instruction?brbrThanks!brbrbiOron Peled lt;[EMAIL
PROTECTED]gt;/i/b wrote:blockquote class=replbq style=border-left:
2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left:
5px;brWe all do hope that the Technion give you a little bit more
thanbrcertify that you have read the right books...brbrA disclaimer:
I am training for many years the corporate worldbrin all aspects of
Unix/Linux systems, so I am quite familiarbrwith the driving forces you
mentioned. Luckily, all thebrcourses I gave (sys-admin, net-admin, kernel,
Perl, what'snot)brwhere not certification oriented, but rather knowledge
oriented.brThis way I know that most of my students actually came for
*learning*.br/blockquotebrp#32;
hr size=1Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make
PC-to-Phone calls. a
href=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com;
Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
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Re: Red Hat SysAdmin Course
Quoting Oron Peled, from the post of Thu, 07 Sep: On Thursday, 7 בSeptember 2006 02:41, Amos Shapira wrote: What about certification? What about it? Certification is just a money making, self sustaining vicious circle -- hence the high price - it's priced for employers sending their workers to learn, not for random individuals on the street. we don't need to help this crap enter the FOSS world. what has it got to do with software licences exactly? you are confusing freedom and lifestyle with professionalism and market demands. those are totaly unrelated. don't confuse your right for freedom with the rights of the capital forces to do what they do. That's what happend to Greenpeace, when some 20 years ago they switched from pro-nature hippies to anti-corporate politicians. you are picking the wrong targets. (disclaimer: I once gave a week's course at such a school, though not for certification, nor am I certified by any official body) -- The man who has everything, except a life. Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat SysAdmin Course
On 07/09/06, Oron Peled [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, 7 בSeptember 2006 02:41, Amos Shapira wrote: What about certification?What about it? Certification is just a money making, self sustainingvicious circle -- we don't need to help this crap enter the FOSS world. It's already there, at least in some parts of the world, though it's true that from a cursory scan of job advertisements on the net I remember only one which specifically requested RH certification. But if he bothers to take a course maybe he might as well get another stamp for it? Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.-- Donald E. KnuthYou follow Digg too? :)-- Military justice is to justice what military music is to music
Re: Red Hat SysAdmin Course
On Thu, Sep 07, 2006 at 04:48:59PM +1000, Amos Shapira wrote: You follow Digg too? :) reddit is better. /me runs Cheers, Muli = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat SysAdmin Course
Ira Abramov wrote: we don't need to help this crap enter the FOSS world. what has it got to do with software licences exactly? Nothing, nor did Oron suggest otherwise. Certificates are a vicious cycle designed to keep the under-talented employed in exchange for money. It is vicious because it places the talented at a disadvantage. It went as far as to have a course I attended (not FOSS) where the person in charge of all the courses entered the classroom, asked the teacher to address the students, and then went on for five minutes about how these certificates are crap, but it makes your CV more attractive to potential employers, himself included. When he was done I stood up and mentioned that I carry none of those certificates, and yet am still teaching that course. don't confuse your right for freedom with the rights of the capital forces to do what they do. That's what happend to Greenpeace, when some 20 years ago they switched from pro-nature hippies to anti-corporate politicians. you are picking the wrong targets. Maybe, but the FOSS world is, currently, relatively free of such nonsenses, and I would sure want to see it remain so. Unfortunately, I am not optimistic that this will remain the case. As more money is put at stake, so will more people want to participate, and the certificates will take a bigger and bigger role. The only positive aspect is that these certifications lower the standards for the quality of people who deal with FOSS, and so the average salary will decrease and the claims that Linux is more expensive to maintain. The bottom line is that a wide spread use can only be achieved when some of the people doing the maintenance are less skilled but cheaper. (disclaimer: I once gave a week's course at such a school, though not for certification, nor am I certified by any official body) I don't have much against taking a course in order to know more. I'm only against taking a course for certification sake only. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd. Have you backed up today's work? http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Certification (was: Red Hat SysAdmin Course)
Certification in principle is no better, or worse, than academic titles or degrees. For a job candidate, it is a means to enhance one's CV by proving that you were sufficiently interested for attending a course, and smart (or persistent) enough to complete it successfully. For employers, it gives some clue about job candidates about which you know nothing except what is in their resume. Given two candidates that you don't know, the one with more diplomas has an advantage. It would be much better if each potential employer could design an examination specially tailored for his/her needs and make each candidate take the examination. However, this is expensive for both parties, thus impractical in most cases. I used to tell my children: passing bagrut does not prove much, but not passing it does prove something, generally considered negative. This is the same for certification. Shalom (Regards), Mati Bidi Architect Globalization Center Of Competency - Bidirectional Scripts IBM Israel = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat SysAdmin Course
Quoting Shachar Shemesh, from the post of Thu, 07 Sep: what has it got to do with software licences exactly? Nothing, nor did Oron suggest otherwise. he was talking about the FOSS world, and that (to me) interprets as the developper community and its product. this has no direct relations to conditions of employment. In fact, if I was to attend a job interview where my certificates of lack therof had more weight to consider my employment than my professional experiance, I can safely say it's probably not the kind of place I'd want to work for anyway. OTOH, When I was working on salary, my bosses considered sending me to such a course to get a certificate so THEY can market their company better to their clients. it's the standard thing since Novell invented that system, and M$/Sun/Oracle/Cisco and the rest joined in. I don't mind taking an exam payed for by my boss, it's HIS marketing decision and investment. Certificates are a vicious cycle designed to keep the under-talented employed in exchange for money. It is vicious because it places the talented at a disadvantage. talented people are rarely in a disadvantage with smart employers. let the stupid employer keep his untalented work force... He deserves nothing less. teacher to address the students, and then went on for five minutes about how these certificates are crap, but it makes your CV more attractive to potential employers, himself included. his manager should give him a bonus for excellent marketing... Maybe, but the FOSS world is, currently, relatively free of such nonsenses, and I would sure want to see it remain so. Unfortunately, I am not optimistic that this will remain the case. As more money is put at stake, so will more people want to participate, and the certificates will take a bigger and bigger role. it's what happens when you enter the corporate world. I have a friend who is VERY talented in all things MS. he has a long list of very warm recommendations. one of the three big banks came to him with an excellent offer, but they demanded he has a BAGRUT. that's their standard. he already passed a polygraph and Pilat and stuff, but if he want take a bagrut exam in TANACH and literature, he can't get the job. I told him to tell them to go suck an egg. other people will think differently perhaps. The only positive aspect is that these certifications lower the standards for the quality of people who deal with FOSS, and so the average salary will decrease and the claims that Linux is more expensive to maintain. The bottom line is that a wide spread use can only be achieved when some of the people doing the maintenance are less skilled but cheaper. that's the case with every market. it's a simple set of rules of demand and supply. If all of us FOSS consultants want to be payed for our work, we need FOSS to spread and the customers to want it, but for that to happen it also has to be cheap, because clients look at that. OTOH we don't want to have it TOO cheap, but that's the way the ball is rolling and it's hard to stop it. to get out of the niche and into the mass market you have to compromise. I don't have much against taking a course in order to know more. I'm only against taking a course for certification sake only. and yet you went to the Technion instead of reading the books at home, and a good friend of ours is getting a Masters' degree to get a visa to another country... there is always a give-and-take. in some cases you would be more willing to give than in others, but that's life. -- Not the mama Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat SysAdmin Course
Shachar explained it better then I could, but I'll try anyway... On Thursday, 7 בSeptember 2006 11:35, Ira Abramov wrote: In fact, if I was to attend a job interview where my certificates of lack therof had more weight to consider my employment than my professional experiance, I can safely say it's probably not the kind of place I'd want to work for anyway. Exactly. The certification systems are all about judging employees about how professional they *seem* and not about how professional they *are*. The only FOSS related thing is the attitude: - How many time you see the PR-spin about the new, shiny, fantastic, professional, innovative new software when only the poor sods who had to write this proprietary software under impossible deadlines and fuzzy marketing specifications know the truth? - OTOH, when somebody tries to spin it in the FOSS world (and it happens every once in a while), you normally have a bunch of party busters calling -- Show me the source (party is over now ;-) So a culture that respect the kids who call The king is naked does not like to participate in a game of masks. ... my bosses considered sending me to such a course to get a certificate so THEY can market their company ... it's HIS marketing decision and investment. That's OK on your personal level. But is this the standard we are striving for? talented people are rarely in a disadvantage with smart employers. let the stupid employer keep his untalented work force... He deserves nothing less. Sure (and we can send them some Malachei Sharet to help them ;-) his manager should give him a bonus for excellent marketing... Actually, that's very bad marketing. Companies have *abused* so much these techniques that most people simply wait for the babbler to go mind his own business and not waste their time. it's what happens when you enter the corporate world. I have a friend ... but if he won't take a bagrut exam in TANACH and literature, he can't get the job. As you said earlier: let the stupid employer keep his untalented work force... and yet you went to the Technion instead of reading the books at home, We all do hope that the Technion give you a little bit more than certify that you have read the right books... A disclaimer: I am training for many years the corporate world in all aspects of Unix/Linux systems, so I am quite familiar with the driving forces you mentioned. Luckily, all the courses I gave (sys-admin, net-admin, kernel, Perl, what'snot) where not certification oriented, but rather knowledge oriented. This way I know that most of my students actually came for *learning*. -- Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron ICQ UIN: 16527398 Some people claim that the UNIX learning curve is steep, but at least you only have to climb it once = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Red Hat SysAdmin Course
--0-807918060-1157552862=:87263 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello. I'm considering taking John Bryce's Red Hat System Administrator (course #876). This is the 5-day all day version. I have programming experience and some experience with Fedora and I'm wondering a) if I actually need the course b) if the course is any good Does anyone have any firsthand experience with this course - or know of anyone who has taken the course? Thanks, Michael jmichaeljaffe(at)yahoo(dot)com - Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. --0-807918060-1157552862=:87263 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello.brbrI'm considering taking John Bryce's Red Hat System Administrator (course #876).nbsp; This is the 5-day all day version.nbsp; I have programming experience and some experience with Fedora and I'm wonderingbra) if I actually need the coursebrb) if the course is any goodbrbrDoes anyone have any firsthand experience with this course - or know of anyone who has taken the course?brbrThanks,brMichaelbrjmichaeljaffe(at)yahoo(dot)combrbrbrp#32; hr size=1Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. a href=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42974/*http://www.yahoo.com/preview; Check it out./a --0-807918060-1157552862=:87263-- = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat SysAdmin Course
Hi Michael,
By nature, this list is a place where very few if any people take these
types of courses. In fact, most of the list members are qualified to
deliver these course themselves. So I think that your question might be
better sent to one of the Hebrew Linux lists that have a wider readership
and will be more likely to have participants who can answer your question.
Regards,
- yba
On Wed, 6 Sep 2006, Michael Jaffe wrote:
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 07:27:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Jaffe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: linux-il@linux.org.il
Subject: Red Hat SysAdmin Course
--0-807918060-1157552862=:87263
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hello.
I'm considering taking John Bryce's Red Hat System Administrator (course #876).
This is the 5-day all day version. I have programming experience and some
experience with Fedora and I'm wondering
a) if I actually need the course
b) if the course is any good
Does anyone have any firsthand experience with this course - or know of anyone
who has taken the course?
Thanks,
Michael
jmichaeljaffe(at)yahoo(dot)com
-
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
--0-807918060-1157552862=:87263
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hello.brbrI'm considering taking John Bryce's Red Hat System Administrator (course #876).nbsp; This is the 5-day all day version.nbsp; I have
programming experience and some experience with Fedora and I'm wonderingbra) if I actually need the coursebrb) if the course is any
goodbrbrDoes anyone have any firsthand experience with this course - or know of anyone who has taken the
course?brbrThanks,brMichaelbrjmichaeljaffe(at)yahoo(dot)combrbrbrp#32;
hr size=1Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. a
href=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42974/*http://www.yahoo.com/preview; Check it out./a
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Re: Red Hat SysAdmin Course
On the other hand, because this list includes many who are qualified to
deliver these course, you might get some pointers as to what to look for and
what to avoid.
I teach such a course, and my recommendation is to make sure there is plenty
of hands-on time. Ideally, every student should have a computer in front of
them where they can try out the concepts as they are taught, and ask questions
right away, in addition to lab time where more complex exercises are carried
out. This computer should be one on which you can try anything without fear of
breaking the installation (i.e. don't use your own laptop!) and of course it
should be the same system being taught.
I find networking concepts are very important, and I like to set up servers on
my computer and invite the students to access mine (samba, ssh, apache, cvs,
etc.). Then they learn how to set up their own and visit each other. By
learning how to set up and debug servers, a lot of other concepts are
practiced.
I also find the boot process an important topic. Knowing what is started when
is important when debugging systems.
I consider building the kernel a pretty fundamental exercise. I schedule this
before a break or at the end of the day so that we don't waste time waiting
for it to compile. If students take the laptops home, I encourage them to
experiment with removing items from the configuruation until the kernel stops
working, then trying to figure out what broke and why. (I sure learned a lot
this way)
(I'm also Michael, but a different Michael)
On Wed, 6 Sep 2006, Jonathan Ben Avraham wrote:
Hi Michael,
By nature, this list is a place where very few if any people take these types
of courses. In fact, most of the list members are qualified to deliver these
course themselves. So I think that your question might be better sent to one
of the Hebrew Linux lists that have a wider readership and will be more
likely to have participants who can answer your question.
Regards,
- yba
On Wed, 6 Sep 2006, Michael Jaffe wrote:
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 07:27:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Jaffe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: linux-il@linux.org.il
Subject: Red Hat SysAdmin Course
--0-807918060-1157552862=:87263
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hello.
I'm considering taking John Bryce's Red Hat System Administrator (course
#876). This is the 5-day all day version. I have programming experience
and some experience with Fedora and I'm wondering
a) if I actually need the course
b) if the course is any good
Does anyone have any firsthand experience with this course - or know of
anyone who has taken the course?
Thanks,
Michael
jmichaeljaffe(at)yahoo(dot)com
-
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
--0-807918060-1157552862=:87263
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hello.brbrI'm considering taking John Bryce's Red Hat System
Administrator (course #876).nbsp; This is the 5-day all day
version.nbsp; I have programming experience and some experience with
Fedora and I'm wonderingbra) if I actually need the coursebrb) if the
course is any goodbrbrDoes anyone have any firsthand experience with
this course - or know of anyone who has taken the
course?brbrThanks,brMichaelbrjmichaeljaffe(at)yahoo(dot)combrbrbrp#32;
hr size=1Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. a
href=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42974/*http://www.yahoo.com/preview;
Check it out./a
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Re: Red Hat SysAdmin Course
On 07/09/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On the other hand, because this list includes many who are qualified todeliver these course, you might get some pointers as to what to look for and what to avoid.[long list of points deleted ]What about certification? If you are going to spend 5 days studying this sort of stuff wouldn't it be worth much more if you got a certificate (or was prepared by the course to sit the exam)? --Amos-- Military justice is to justice what military music is to music
Re: Red Hat SysAdmin Course
On Thursday, 7 בSeptember 2006 02:41, Amos Shapira wrote: What about certification? What about it? Certification is just a money making, self sustaining vicious circle -- we don't need to help this crap enter the FOSS world. -- Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron ICQ UIN: 16527398 Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
