[LUTE] Re: Choosing Strings
--- On Mon, 2/6/08, howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Choosing Strings
To: LUTELIST List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 2 June, 2008, 6:31 PM
On Jun 2, 2008, at 2:06 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
How do do we (ie you) know, without prejudging the
issue, that
1) the actual range of sizes of surviving
instruments is much
larger This implies you are able to identify
double re-entrant
instruments from single (not to mention archlutes)-
which may
indeed be smaller;
So a toy theorbo is anything smaller than 93cm?
How do you conclude this from what I wrote? I'd be grateful for a response to
my query (above) as to how you are able to state that the the actual range of
sizes of surviving instruments is much larger without knowing if they were
historically played as single or double re-entrant instruments.
2) 99 cm is extremely large by any
standard Again you're
prejudging the issue. In fact this size fits with the
largest
extant instruments,
Yes, the largest instruments would be, by definition,
extremely large.
So why do you think they're so unusual ('by any standard')? Can it be that it
doesn't fit your own preconceptions
3) Praetorius never got within 400 km of Padua,
let alone Rome.
So? Do you really think there was little or no
communication within
Europe at the time?
Communication would not necessarily mean everything
Praetorious wrote
about theorbos, Rome or Padua would be accurate, or even
make sense.
We have more communication now than we can deal with, and
there's
plenty of inaccuracy and nonsense floating around.
Well you can, of course, choose to ignore the historical evidence if it doesn't
fit with your personal prejudice; others prefer to look at all the available
information.
MH
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[LUTE] Re: theorbo sizes; theorbo definitions
I seem to recall that chitarone / theorbo did at first not refer to the extended neck but to the reentrant high tuning which was at first used on bass lutes (then still without bass extension). Chitarone being the big version of the chitara francese, a type of _lute_ played in Italy. Only later, when the extension was put up, the extended neck remained its distinctive feature, and the instrument came to be called theorbo exclusively. According to that draught of a definition, archlutes, arciliuti, and liuti attiorbati are not theorbos. Not sure about chapter and verse, maybe Jan Grueter's thesis on continuo playing with lutes. Mathias David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Exactly-- the distinction is a modern one, the historical one semi-interchangeable based on time region. The only way to define an archlute as distinct from a theorbo is to ignore the myriad historical examples where the terms are used interchangeably. This distinction is similar to calling the classical piano the fortepiano--it is not the precise historical term, it is what we choose to call it. What we need is a new definition, and I'm happy to have you improve on mine, it is just a starting point. In its broadest sense, the term to me seems to me to refer to the neck, as in the theorbo-lute. An archlute then, is in its most general sense a theorbo (according to the people who played it), and in its narrow sense, as well as modern sense, a special type of theorbo, perhaps based more on the lute, perhaps several different instruments. I don't see how we can discount the historical record. The time for saying they must have been mistaken, they being the eyewitnesses, surely is past. How can they have made hundreds of mistakes with the terms? The fact that the historical record does not reflect in any sense two types of instruments with two uniform terms should be interpreted, not discounted. I think a critique would be most helpful if followed by an improved definition. dt Theorbo A bass lute or renaissance lute with an extended neck enabling additional, unfretted bass notes: instruments based on, or developed from these models. This definition includes archlutes and most baroque-era lutes, which makes it useful for persons who are not lute-literate and useless as a term of art for us insiders. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-fil�
Lots of good questions that obviously haven't been satisfactorily answered. One thing that has bothered me for a while as well is that the paintings often aren't consistent within themselves. Quite often one finds red-ish strings on non-successive courses, i.e. the 5th course and the 9th course might be red. As an example: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Chris --- Jaros³aw Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, Very often when I listen to such a discussion I think what the old guys would say about all this string business. In our century we have very scientific attitude towards music making. But are we sure this is all real science? We base on paintings and treatises, but can we say loaded strings are often mentioned in such a writings? Or can we be sure that this reddish color indicates copper loading? And then, I wonder how the artist (not very scientific minded creature) would paint a demi-file string with copper wire? Would he be able to show the whole structure of the wiring? Or would he mind showing it? Then, we have to look at the painting process in general and put it into the proper context (not so scientific I am afraid). Is the tone color absolutely realistic on all paintings from the period? Very often I find spectrum shifted towards brown, yellow, or red side. This is not to say I exclude loading, but probably I would be more careful on deciding what is historical and what is not. Best wishes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
On Jun 3, 2008, at 6:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Maybe as a visual cue, the way harpists color their C and F strings today... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-fil é
Le 3 juin 08 à 16:32, howard posner a écrit : On Jun 3, 2008, at 6:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Maybe as a visual cue, the way harpists color their C and F strings today... -- But surely a harpist, can look at the strings, that is more difficult for a lutist? It could be that those top strings had undergone some special treatment, which still might not be loading, but that is pure speculation on my part. It could also be a whim of the painter, looking for some sort of symmetry with the basses, or a string maker could have become famous for his red basses, and be cashing in on that fact tby dyeing other strings red. That does of course mean that just the fact that some strings are coloured, does not form a sufficient argument in favour of the loaded gut string hypothesis (loading could exist that gives no colour whatsoever, or a yellow colour, indistinguishable from gut). The fact that these red or brown strings are frequently the basses that you would need to load today, is a small argument in that direction, but it is the accumulation of such arguments, in which no one is conclusive, that may lead us to prefer this hypothesis, to the alternatives, which I have discussed, particularly when we consider the existence of short Baroque lutes with very small bridge holes. Nevertheless, the other alternatives, as Martyn has said (low tension strings, and toroidal ropes), should not be brushed aside without due consideration. Please note that when I say, should not be brushed aside, I am only talking about hypothese on historical strings. Even if we were to prove that one hypothesis was far weaker than the others, it does not necessarily mean that soundwise the solution is bad. Both Charles Besnainou and I think Satoh, have two-headed 14 course lutes. Perhaps, these did exist, but Charles told me he built his as an interesting experiment with no particular thought to authenticity. They may still be able to play superb music on these, by getting the maximum out of the strings they each prefer. I think there is an argument in favour of trying to rediscover the sound structures (string types, lute shapes, etc) around which a particular lute piece might have been constructed, especially when we are talking about a composer whose compositions search out the full potential a particular technology can produce, but that does not exclude other aproaches to the same material, including clever use of metal-wound basses, and lute shapes which allow the performer to acheive more with pure gut than perhaps any historical performer managed to do. I don't see anything wrong in that per se. Different approaches to the music are going to lead to less uniformity, and hopefully more interesting performances. Anthony Le 3 juin 08 à 16:32, howard posner a écrit : On Jun 3, 2008, at 6:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Maybe as a visual cue, the way harpists color their C and F strings today... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
I think you are speaking of the lute player, in Troyes (France) Beaux-arts museum, with uncertain attribution to Rubens. I saw many times the original and some strings are red on the painting (the original is more than human size... beautiful picture of course) I remember it is a ten course lute. (and the player wearing a sword, not very comfortable to play lute...) Next time I go to Troyes I'll have a close look to the strings... You have some more infos here and clicking on vue complete you can see on the zoom the red strings... http://www.ville-troyes.fr/scripts/musees/publigen/content/templates/show.a sp?P=346L=FRSYNC=Y If cut, paste the ling between the two V. -Message d'origine- De : howard posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Envoyé : mardi 3 juin 2008 16:32 À : Lute Objet : [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé On Jun 3, 2008, at 6:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Maybe as a visual cue, the way harpists color their C and F strings today... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
I've posted a picture of this painting (L'homme au luth) here : http://lutegroup.ning.com/profile/JMP Just join the group (free) and enjoy ! Best, Jean-Marie === 03-06-2008 15:24:22 === Lots of good questions that obviously haven't been satisfactorily answered. One thing that has bothered me for a while as well is that the paintings often aren't consistent within themselves. Quite often one finds red-ish strings on non-successive courses, i.e. the 5th course and the 9th course might be red. As an example: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Chris --- Jaros³aw Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, Very often when I listen to such a discussion I think what the old guys would say about all this string business. In our century we have very scientific attitude towards music making. But are we sure this is all real science? We base on paintings and treatises, but can we say loaded strings are often mentioned in such a writings? Or can we be sure that this reddish color indicates copper loading? And then, I wonder how the artist (not very scientific minded creature) would paint a demi-file string with copper wire? Would he be able to show the whole structure of the wiring? Or would he mind showing it? Then, we have to look at the painting process in general and put it into the proper context (not so scientific I am afraid). Is the tone color absolutely realistic on all paintings from the period? Very often I find spectrum shifted towards brown, yellow, or red side. This is not to say I exclude loading, but probably I would be more careful on deciding what is historical and what is not. Best wishes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 03-06-2008 N ¶è®ß¶¬+-±ç¥Ëbú+«b¢vÛiÿü0ÁË j»f¢ëayÛ¿Á·?ë^iÙ¢ø§uìa¶i
[LUTE] Re: theorbo sizes; theorbo definitions
Piccinini certainly reports this MH --- On Tue, 3/6/08, Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: theorbo sizes; theorbo definitions To: David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 3 June, 2008, 2:17 PM I seem to recall that chitarone / theorbo did at first not refer to the extended neck but to the reentrant high tuning which was at first used on bass lutes (then still without bass extension). Chitarone being the big version of the chitara francese, a type of _lute_ played in Italy. Only later, when the extension was put up, the extended neck remained its distinctive feature, and the instrument came to be called theorbo exclusively. According to that draught of a definition, archlutes, arciliuti, and liuti attiorbati are not theorbos. Not sure about chapter and verse, maybe Jan Grueter's thesis on continuo playing with lutes. Mathias David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Exactly-- the distinction is a modern one, the historical one semi-interchangeable based on time region. The only way to define an archlute as distinct from a theorbo is to ignore the myriad historical examples where the terms are used interchangeably. This distinction is similar to calling the classical piano the fortepiano--it is not the precise historical term, it is what we choose to call it. What we need is a new definition, and I'm happy to have you improve on mine, it is just a starting point. In its broadest sense, the term to me seems to me to refer to the neck, as in the theorbo-lute. An archlute then, is in its most general sense a theorbo (according to the people who played it), and in its narrow sense, as well as modern sense, a special type of theorbo, perhaps based more on the lute, perhaps several different instruments. I don't see how we can discount the historical record. The time for saying they must have been mistaken, they being the eyewitnesses, surely is past. How can they have made hundreds of mistakes with the terms? The fact that the historical record does not reflect in any sense two types of instruments with two uniform terms should be interpreted, not discounted. I think a critique would be most helpful if followed by an improved definition. dt Theorbo A bass lute or renaissance lute with an extended neck enabling additional, unfretted bass notes: instruments based on, or developed from these models. This definition includes archlutes and most baroque-era lutes, which makes it useful for persons who are not lute-literate and useless as a term of art for us insiders. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE]Re: [LUTE]_Re: Double_headed_12c/loaded/Demi-filé
Just go there first, Valéry : http://lutegroup.ning.com/profile/JMP ;-) Jean-Marie === 03-06-2008 16:45:21 === I think you are speaking of the lute player, in Troyes (France) Beaux-arts museum, with uncertain attribution to Rubens. I saw many times the original and some strings are red on the painting (the original is more than human size... beautiful picture of course) I remember it is a ten course lute. (and the player wearing a sword, not very comfortable to play lute...) Next time I go to Troyes I'll have a close look to the strings... You have some more infos here and clicking on vue complete you can see on the zoom the red strings... http://www.ville-troyes.fr/scripts/musees/publigen/content/templates/show.a sp?P=346L=FRSYNC=Y If cut, paste the ling between the two V. -Message d'origine- De : howard posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Envoyé : mardi 3 juin 2008 16:32 À : Lute Objet : [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé On Jun 3, 2008, at 6:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Maybe as a visual cue, the way harpists color their C and F strings today... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 03-06-2008
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
The color of the string is a result of the processing of the casings making gut strings. It is a consequence of the nature of the casings themselves, the chemistry used, the Ph of the water etc. So finished strings can end up being a rich brown color, a nearly white color, and anything in between. And it means very little in terms of the quality of the string. Damian Quite often one finds red-ish strings on non-successive courses, i.e. the 5th course and the 9th course might be red. As an example: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Chris --- Jaros³aw Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, Very often when I listen to such a discussion I think what the old guys would say about all this string business. In our century we have very scientific attitude towards music making. But are we sure this is all real science? We base on paintings and treatises, but can we say loaded strings are often mentioned in such a writings? Or can we be sure that this reddish color indicates copper loading? And then, I wonder how the artist (not very scientific minded creature) would paint a demi-file string with copper wire? Would he be able to show the whole structure of the wiring? Or would he mind showing it? Then, we have to look at the painting process in general and put it into the proper context (not so scientific I am afraid). Is the tone color absolutely realistic on all paintings from the period? Very often I find spectrum shifted towards brown, yellow, or red side. This is not to say I exclude loading, but probably I would be more careful on deciding what is historical and what is not. Best wishes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Francesco and the viola da mano
I understand the introduction of the vihuela into Spanish Neapolitan provinces helped the spread of the Italian viola da mano, but where does Francesco da Milano come in? Did he have a connection with the south? Or did the instrument spread to the north as well? How popular was the viola da mano? Any other publications for it? And can anyone flesh out the story of one of the d'Este family ordering a 'Spanish viola da mano' but having to settle for an Italian one instead? I can't remember the facts. I might copy this to the vihuela group as there are some people there who are not subscribers here. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco and the viola da mano
Dear Rob, The best source of information that I know of about the viola da mano is Hiroyuki Minamino's article 'The Spanish plucked viola in Renaissance Italy, 1480-1530' (Early Music, May 2004). It doesn't say a lot about Francesco owing to the scarcity of information, but he covers Isabella d'Este's interest in the viola da mano in some detail. If you can't find a hard copy I understand it's possible to buy downloads from the Early Music website. Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: Rob MacKillop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 03 June 2008 18:30 To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Francesco and the viola da mano I understand the introduction of the vihuela into Spanish Neapolitan provinces helped the spread of the Italian viola da mano, but where does Francesco da Milano come in? Did he have a connection with the south? Or did the instrument spread to the north as well? How popular was the viola da mano? Any other publications for it? And can anyone flesh out the story of one of the d'Este family ordering a 'Spanish viola da mano' but having to settle for an Italian one instead? I can't remember the facts. I might copy this to the vihuela group as there are some people there who are not subscribers here. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [delian] Sautschecks Kleinigkeiten
Nach Darmstadter Manier- http://polyhymnion.org/swv/images/aria-ruthenica.pdf http://turovsky.org/music/aria-ruthenica.mp3 Enjoy, RT Which is a companion piece to one nach Berliner Manier- http://polyhymnion.org/swv/images/aria-sarmatica2.pdf http://polyhymnion.org/swv/sounds/aria-sarmatica2.mp3 RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco and the viola da mano
Thanks, Denys. That sounds an ideal starting place. I've just read this from Chris Wilson's review of the 1997 International Symposium on Francesco: Dinko Fabris had some intriguing new possibilities concerning Francesco's early years. He had uncovered in church records in Barletta, near Bari on the southeast coast of Italy, that a young cleric was working there for five years from 1512. He signed himself Francisco da Milano, the same spelling that is used for Francesco on the title cage of the anonymous publication 'Novamente stanpata', that had already caused so much interest at this symposium. The archbishop of the area came from Pavia but spent much of his time in Rome, only visiting Barletta twice a year. Dinko Fabris suggested that he may have brought Francesco with him from Pavia and that he traveled with his retinue. So he may have had connections with Testagrossa and it may well have been through his association with the archbishop that he obtained his position at the Vatican. So there is the possibility that he was in the south. Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco and the viola da mano
John Griffiths' book on Neapolitan Lute Music looks very informative - you can read some of it on Google Books: *http://tinyurl.com/5cjr6v* These links to Google Books are not always successful. Looks like the works of Dentice and Severino could be added to the viola/vihuela repertoire. Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco and the viola da mano
Dear all, The celebrated maker Lorenzo Gusnasco da Pavia made quite a number of instruments for many Italian nobles, especially for Isabella d'Este, including several viols (whatever this may mean in late 15th-century Italy). A point of interest here is that among her servants we find Giovanni Angelo Testagrossa: does this ring a bell? In 1503 Testagrossa left her service taking with him three bowed viols and two spagnoli, whose probable identity as plucked instruments is supported by an a Ferrara inventory of 1511, where violoni alla napolitana are listed under lauti and thus distinguished from bowed ones. Lorenzo da Pavia made a viola spagnola for Leonora Gonzaga of Urbino in 1509-1510. Things begin to getinteresting in the correspondance between Isabella d'Este and Lorenzo da Pavia where we find references to another name that may be germane to the issue: Spanish lute (liuto alla spagnola): When Isabella ordered one, Lorenzo mentioned that these instruments were: ... lutes made in Spain, and the Spanish give them a certain sound in one way or another to make them sing, which they do not know how to do here. Later on Isabella specifies some of the characteristics she wants the instrument to have: remember to make the the body completely in Spanish manner without giving it anything of the Italian fashion (fare el corpo tutto alla spagnola senza dargli niente del italiano). Tantalizing A splendid study of Lorenzo da Pavia, where all this information appears, was published by William Prizer, Isabella d'Este and Lorenzo da Pavia, 'Master Instrument Maker' . _Early Music History_ 2 (1982), pp. 87-127. Another intersting study by the same author is _Courtly Pastimes. The Frottole of Marchetto Cara_, UMI Research Press, Ann Arbor, Michigan, 1980 Best wishes, Antonio - Original Message From: Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 3 June, 2008 12:30:25 PM Subject: [LUTE] Francesco and the viola da mano I understand the introduction of the vihuela into Spanish Neapolitan provinces helped the spread of the Italian viola da mano, but where does Francesco da Milano come in? Did he have a connection with the south? Or did the instrument spread to the north as well? How popular was the viola da mano? Any other publications for it? And can anyone flesh out the story of one of the d'Este family ordering a 'Spanish viola da mano' but having to settle for an Italian one instead? I can't remember the facts. I might copy this to the vihuela group as there are some people there who are not subscribers here. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-fil�
Howard, --- howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Maybe as a visual cue, the way harpists color their C and F strings today... Makes perfect sense for the 7th course. ...but the top two? Those are probably the easiest two strings to find. Note that it is a ten course lute and that the artist (Rubens?) has paid special attention to render details such as the single chanterelle and then double courses for the rest. Chris -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
On Jun 3, 2008, at 6:11 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Makes perfect sense for the 7th course. ...but the top two? Those are probably the easiest two strings to find. Good point; I misread your first post. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
