[BAROQUE-LUTE] Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]
Dear Arthur, I suppose it is worth mentioning in this context that Cabezon and Henestrosa's keyboard music was for tecla, harpa y vihuela, so keyboard players, harpists and vihuela players were all expected to play from the same notation, which is a form of tablature. As you know, there is a little bit of Francesco da Milano in there. It is interesting what you say about the possibility of keyboard players learning to play from lute tablature, because of the scarcity of keyboard music in print. They would have to find their music from somewhere. By the way, I can manage German tablature straight on to the piano, as long as it's from Hans Newsidler's books, because the music is not too difficult to read, and many of his pieces are not too difficult to play. Reading music by Melchior Newsidler from a manuscript source would be asking too much of me, but not, apparently, of Orazio Michi dell'Arpa. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of A. J. Ness Sent: 02 December 2011 23:38 To: William Samson; Stuart Walsh Cc: Baroque Lute List Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392] It's not difficult to play from lute tablature at a keyboard. I have played at sight from Italian tablature at a keyboard without ever having practicing the technique. I've never tried German, but it would be even easier because there is one distinct note for each tablature cipher. I'm limited by my modest keyboard skills. I've witnessed Daniel Heartz, a piano virtuoso, when he ripped through a lute tablature at tempo. I wonder historically how often Renaissance keyboard players turned to lute tablature. There was relatively so little printed keyboard music from those days. Printing keyboard notation must have been very difficult, and that may account _*in part*_ for its scarcity. And playing from lute tablature would be an easy way for keyboard players to augment their repertory. And lute music sounds very nice when played on a portative organ, for example. Roman added that historic harpist played from lute tablature. I know of one piece of evidence for this. Ms Rès 429 at the Bibliothèque nationale in Paris has on its cover the ex-libris of Orazio Michi dell'Arpa (1594-1649), perhaps the most famous harpist of his day. This is the fascicle manuscript with music by Melchior Newsidler (autograph) and Francesco (copied from the Naples print of 1536). More information: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/id30.html (scroll down). Arthur. - Original Message - From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 4:13 AM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392] Hi Stuart, SNIP Having said that, I can't remember if you were at the Lute Soc Summer School when Eugen Dombois was giving master classes? He was having some injury problems and couldn't play his lute, so he borrowed a clavichord and sight read from lute tablature flawlessly. Not the same skill, of course, but I wouldn't have believed it possible if I hadn't seen it. Bill From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: Baroque Lute List (E-mail) baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 30 November 2011, 22:10 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392] On 30/11/2011 16:37, David van Ooijen wrote: On 30 November 2011 17:28, howard posner[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: On Nov 30, 2011, at 7:39 AM, David van Ooijen wrote: Ask your colleagues if they can transpose a lute song. What evidence do you have that he has colleagues? ROTFLOL! Not sure I am. Professionals on this list don't often 'pull rank', or make a very, very big deal of showing off their professional skills to the majority of us who are just enthusiastic amateurs. Firstly, I'll say I haven't looked at a lute song accompaniment in a very, very long time. Yet, although I'd feel quite confident in having a go at sight reading lute duets and other lute parts (depending on difficulty, of course), I'd be far less sure about sight reading lute song accompaniments, let alone transposing at sight! The parts are just too difficult to sight read, let alone, transpose. Can you do this, Howard? On the other hand, of course, players of other instruments do transpose at sight as a matter of course. Many pianists (and other keyboard players) can transpose at sight, though I've always assumed they were transposing fairly simple music, not Bartok piano concertos. Do your colleagues, do this sort of thing, David? I have an amateur musician colleague, another teacher - of physics. He plays trombone. Trombone players play in different clefs and in
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Male alto in Lute songs? wasTransposing lute tablature on sight
Thank you for this Howard and for your time.
My starting point in any discussion on performance practice is a
belief that the performance should respect the composer's intentions
(to the best of our present knowledge) and thus what auditors expected
to hear. The range requirements of these solo (English) lute songs is
not great and well within the capabilities of most sopranos or tenors
with only a modest ranges. So, as pointed out earlier, the only reason
to transpose these particular lute songs is to perform them with a
voice type (eg alto) it is highly unlikely the composer expected to be
used. In short, it is indeed both unecessary to have to transpose on
sight and to use the alto voice for these pieces (your 'two issues').
As I wrote earlier, other modes of performance are perfectly possible
and if nowadays some people like them, or even prefer them, then so be
it. But, like Hill, I do object to it (ie use of male altos in the
repertoire) being touted as the way the Old Ones expected their music
to be performed. And, yes, regarding evidence: I do think we should
try and seek it to bolster our suppositions rather than relying on
personal unsubstantiated prejudices. We may not know everything with
100% certainty but that's no excuse for ignoring what evidence we
actually do have.
Incidentally, the second part of David Hill's paper has now appeared
(Early Music Review No 145). Hill is very well aware of the antipathy
this 'uncomfortable truth' may raise in some quarters but feels it is
so very important to set the record straight. Towards the end he writes
these two articles have not been an attack on countertenors,
merely their continuing unquestioned use in repertoire that they are
very unlikely to have performed. I salute his courage as well as
his scholarship and urge you to read it. You can subscribe to Early
Music Review for only around -L-20 a year and for that you get both the
Review and the Diary which lists many international concerts,
festivals, conferences, workshops and lectures...
Martyn
--- On Fri, 2/12/11, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote:
From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Male alto in Lute songs? wasTransposing
lute tablature on sight
To: Baroque lute Dmth baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, lute
mailing list list l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 2 December, 2011, 18:28
On Dec 2, 2011, at 7:58 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
As David Hill points out (have you bothered
to read his paper?) the voice generally expected when the songs
were
composed was soprano/tenor. As he says, the male alto, to take
David
Van Oijan's personal preference, was certainly around but in
England
was not deployed as a solo voice outside of a cathedral,
collegiate or
courtly chapel...
You've been bandying about two issues here, and I think you've confused
them. First, is it anachronistic to transpose lute songs (and the
subsidiary question about whether David van Ooijen is some kind of
freak because he transposes tablature accompaniments without writing
out the transposition)? Second, is it anachronistic, in a
renaissance-faire sort of way, for male altos to sing lute songs? Your
answer yes to both questions, and indeed cite the second answer as
dispositive of the first question.
I see several fundamental flaws in your conclusion.
First, male altos' range considerations are no different from those of
female altos or baritones or basses. So male altos are relevant to the
question of transposing lute songs only in that they would add numbers
to the class of singers who would need to transpose a song published in
the soprano/tenor range, which would indicate that more than half the
available singers might need to transpose at least some of the songs if
they wanted to sing the top line. The class of transposers might
actually have been considerably more than half: the songs were written
for home use, largely by amateur singers, which might mean that a
larger percentage of the singers would have had lower voices --
amateurs tend to sing lower because they tend to use the same register
singing as they do speaking, but let's put that aside for now. The
point is that male alto or no male alto, many singers would have needed
to transpose their favorite lute song.
Second, the idea that male altos weren't deployed as a solo voice
outside of a cathedral, collegiate or courtly chapel is irrelevant to
the question of whether they sang lute songs. Again, these songs were
published so that amateurs could sing them in their homes. The singers
were not deployed. They did what they did. Male altos sang in
English choirs. Do you think they were completely silent when they
walked
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Male alto in Lute songs? wasTransposing lute tablature on sight
I more than agree with Hill, without albionic understatements. Contertenors were never really statistically prevalent, and good ones even fewer. Alfred Deller was a great musician first and a countertenor second. Most countertenors that came in his wake are simply irritating. I am certain the cituation was similar 400 years ago. There MAY HAVE BEEN A FEW listenable countertenors, but most of them were insufferable then as they are now. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Baroque lute Dmth baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; lute mailing list list l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 4:57 AM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Male alto in Lute songs? wasTransposing lute tablature on sight Thank you for this Howard and for your time. My starting point in any discussion on performance practice is a belief that the performance should respect the composer's intentions (to the best of our present knowledge) and thus what auditors expected to hear. The range requirements of these solo (English) lute songs is not great and well within the capabilities of most sopranos or tenors with only a modest ranges. So, as pointed out earlier, the only reason to transpose these particular lute songs is to perform them with a voice type (eg alto) it is highly unlikely the composer expected to be used. In short, it is indeed both unecessary to have to transpose on sight and to use the alto voice for these pieces (your 'two issues'). As I wrote earlier, other modes of performance are perfectly possible and if nowadays some people like them, or even prefer them, then so be it. But, like Hill, I do object to it (ie use of male altos in the repertoire) being touted as the way the Old Ones expected their music to be performed. And, yes, regarding evidence: I do think we should try and seek it to bolster our suppositions rather than relying on personal unsubstantiated prejudices. We may not know everything with 100% certainty but that's no excuse for ignoring what evidence we actually do have. Incidentally, the second part of David Hill's paper has now appeared (Early Music Review No 145). Hill is very well aware of the antipathy this 'uncomfortable truth' may raise in some quarters but feels it is so very important to set the record straight. Towards the end he writes these two articles have not been an attack on countertenors, merely their continuing unquestioned use in repertoire that they are very unlikely to have performed. I salute his courage as well as his scholarship and urge you to read it. You can subscribe to Early Music Review for only around -L-20 a year and for that you get both the Review and the Diary which lists many international concerts, festivals, conferences, workshops and lectures... Martyn --- On Fri, 2/12/11, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Male alto in Lute songs? wasTransposing lute tablature on sight To: Baroque lute Dmth baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, lute mailing list list l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 2 December, 2011, 18:28 On Dec 2, 2011, at 7:58 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: As David Hill points out (have you bothered to read his paper?) the voice generally expected when the songs were composed was soprano/tenor. As he says, the male alto, to take David Van Oijan's personal preference, was certainly around but in England was not deployed as a solo voice outside of a cathedral, collegiate or courtly chapel... You've been bandying about two issues here, and I think you've confused them. First, is it anachronistic to transpose lute songs (and the subsidiary question about whether David van Ooijen is some kind of freak because he transposes tablature accompaniments without writing out the transposition)? Second, is it anachronistic, in a renaissance-faire sort of way, for male altos to sing lute songs? Your answer yes to both questions, and indeed cite the second answer as dispositive of the first question. I see several fundamental flaws in your conclusion. First, male altos' range considerations are no different from those of female altos or baritones or basses. So male altos are relevant to the question of transposing lute songs only in that they would add numbers to the class of singers who would need to transpose a song published in the soprano/tenor range, which would indicate that more than half the available singers might need to transpose at least some of the songs if they wanted to sing the top line. The class of transposers might actually have been considerably more than half: the songs were written for home use, largely by amateur singers, which might mean that a larger percentage of the
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]
I suppose it is worth mentioning in this context that Cabezon and Henestrosa's keyboard music was for tecla, harpa y vihuela, so keyboard players, harpists and vihuela players were all expected to play from the same notation, which is a form of tablature. Hate to object, but organ tablature is not a tablature like lute tablature (charting fret board positions), but a pitch notation. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_tablature (the German version is better organized). So musicians of all instruments as well as singers could rightfully be expected to sing and play from organ tablature. Dietrich Buxtehude wrote all of his works in organ tablature, including the voice parts, and he by no means was an exception. Modern keyboard players and harpists will have to be specialists, though, reading tab. During the 15th through 18th centuries, there would mainly be one type of lute around with its distinct tuning, whereas today we have surviving tablatures for 6c to 10c ren lutes, 11c to 13c bar lutes, theorbos, archlutes, not to speak of angeliques and mandoras. Next time I'll play from the staff, not from the tablature sounds like a self-deprecating joke to me, rather than matter-of-fact-speech. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Male alto in Lute songs? wasTransposing lute tablature on sight
On Dec 3, 2011, at 1:57 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you for this Howard and for your time. And thank you for restating what you'd already written. Since I've already responded to it, I'll spare the list further comment. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] My playing
Hi, all! My friends and me have played a concert. Here is songs by John Dowland: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcleEbnXqCM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycL4JaKHY6s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AB54nH3Zac What do you think about it? Articulation of singer is not too foreign? And here is suite by de Visee (Pavel Filchenko - viola d'amour and my continuo) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1IKn-Kg4e0 it's my second experience of continuo playing. I need your comments and advices. Waiting for criticism)) Konstantin. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: My playing
On Dec 3, 2011, at 4:10 AM, Konstantin Shchenikov wrote: My friends and me have played a concert. Here is songs by John Dowland: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcleEbnXqCM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycL4JaKHY6s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AB54nH3Zac What do you think about it? Articulation of singer is not too foreign? It sounds heavily accented, but he's remarkably clear, and more understandable than some native English speakers I've heard in Dowland. The actual mispronunciations can be a problem. He gets the h in come heavy sleep right, but sings Shark you spirits that in shadows dwell and Happy, happy they that in shell feel not the world's despite (tongue too high). Whether he wants to work on the vowels depends on whether he plans to sing to English-speaking audiences, I suppose. I don't know what to tell him about voiced and unvoiced sibilants. English spelling/pronunciation went insane in 1066 and has never made sense since. And here is suite by de Visee (Pavel Filchenko - viola d'amour and my continuo) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1IKn-Kg4e0 it's my second experience of continuo playing. On the whole, it's quite good. It sounds like your right hand got more comfortable as it went on. Some mistakes (and some good recoveries), obviously. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]
On Dec 3, 2011, at 10:28 PM, Mathias Roesel wrote: Next time I'll play from the staff, not from the tablature sounds like a self-deprecating joke to me, rather than matter-of-fact-speech. Well of course it was a joke. The joke was not exactly self-deprecating, but mock self-aggrandizing (sight reading Francesco at lickety-split tempo). Like I said, he had an amazing sense of humor and that was typical. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
