[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
Do you really mean to say that the tempo of a dance played on, say, the lute has no relationship whatsoever to the tempo at which contemporaries actually danced it? MH __ From: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com To: Thomas Walker twlute...@hotmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 16 December 2014, 20:55 Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Hello Thomas: A good modernish source of information can be found in D. J. Buch, The Influence of the Ballet de cour in the Genesis of the French Baroque Suite, Acta Musicologica, Vol. 57, Fasc. 1 (Jan. - Jun., 1985), pp. 94-109. The saraband is discussed on page 102. Since so much 17th-century lute music consisted of boiled-down versions of popular dance tunes, it important to know how a particular dance worked in it's original context. Then one has to realize that, since lutes are and were inaudible when dancer's feet scrape the floor, the music is adapted and performed in whatever manner the player wishes. RA Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:03:13 -0600 To: [1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [2]twlute...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] those sarabands Greetings all-- I know the sarabande was originally a lively ditty which morphed pretty thoroughly by the late 17th century. I have a question about the middle ground, in particular the sarabandes found in Ballard's prints from the 1630s, though. Many seem to work whether played lively or stately, and I know of an old Bailes recording where he positively burns through a sarabande by Mesangeau. I also have played sarabands in ensemble works by Jenkins et al that demanded a lively reading. The question is, what textual evidence do we have for expected tempi of sarabandes of the French school 1610-1640? Thank you kindly, Thomas Walker, Jr. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html 3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
See 17th/18th century paintings of dances with lute bands. One (wo)man bands at times. Vallet had a lute quartet that rented itself out for playing at parties. I've played to dancing people. Was fun! Lots of improvising to strech a simple piece. Time for fast runs? Sure. Time for intricate harmonies to spice up a bland harmonic schedule? Sure. Anything fingers and brain allow; all is permitted as long as you keep up the tempo. David *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 17 December 2014 at 09:52, Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: A A Do you really mean to say that the tempo of a dance played on, say, the A A lute has no relationship whatsoever to the tempo at which A A contemporaries actually danced it? A A MH A A A __ A A From: Ron Andrico [4]praelu...@hotmail.com A A To: Thomas Walker [5]twlute...@hotmail.com; [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu A A [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu A A Sent: Tuesday, 16 December 2014, 20:55 A A Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands A A A Hello Thomas: A A A A good modernish source of information can be found in D. J. Buch, A A The A A A Influence of the Ballet de cour in the Genesis of the French Baroque A A A Suite, Acta Musicologica, Vol. 57, Fasc. 1 (Jan. - Jun., 1985), pp. A A A 94-109.A The saraband is discussed on page 102. A A A Since so much 17th-century lute music consisted of boiled-down A A versions A A A of popular dance tunes, it important to know how a particular dance A A A worked in it's original context.A Then one has to realize that, since A A A lutes are and were inaudible when dancer's feet scrape the floor, the A A A music is adapted and performed in whatever manner the player wishes. A A A RA A A A Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:03:13 -0600 A A A To: [1][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu A A A From: [2][9]twlute...@hotmail.com A A A Subject: [LUTE] those sarabands A A A A A A Greetings all-- A A A I know the sarabande was originally a lively ditty which morphed A A A pretty A A A thoroughly by the late 17th century. I have a question about the A A A middle ground, in particular the sarabandes found in Ballard's A A prints A A A from the 1630s, though. Many seem to work whether played lively A A or A A A stately, and I know of an old Bailes recording where he positively A A A burns through a sarabande by Mesangeau. I also have played A A sarabands A A A in ensemble works by Jenkins et al that demanded a lively reading. A A A The question is, what textual evidence do we have for expected A A tempi A A A of A A A sarabandes of the French school 1610-1640? A A A Thank you kindly, A A A Thomas Walker, Jr. A A A A A A -- A A A A A A A A A To get on or off this list see list information at A A A [3][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html A A A -- A A -- References A A 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html A A 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html A A 3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 4. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 5. mailto:twlute...@hotmail.com 6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. mailto:twlute...@hotmail.com 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMHB0OyI+PHAgc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMnB 0O21h cmdpbi10b3A6MDttYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tOjA7Ij48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjE wcHQ7 Ij5JIHRoaW5rIFRob21hcyB3YXMgcXVlc3Rpb25pbmcgdGhlIGV4aXN0aW5nIGNvbnRlbXB vcmFy eSBzb3VyY2VzIHRvIGNob29zZSBhIGNvcnJlY3QgdGVtcG8gZm9yIHRoZSBzYXJhYmFuZCB pbiB0 aGUgMTYzMHMuJm5ic3A7PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTJwdDt tYXJn aW4tdG9wOjA7bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTowOyI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMHB 0OyI+ VG8gbXkga25vd2xlZGdlIE1lcnNlbm5lIGlzIHRoZSBvbmx5IG9uZSB0byBhZGRyZXNzIHR oaXMg cXVlc3Rpb24gd2hlbiBoZSByZWNhcGl0dWxhdGVzIGFsbCB0aGUgZGFuY2UgbW92ZW1lbnR zIG9m IGhpcyB0aW1lICgxNjM2KSBhbmQgaGlzIGluZGljYXRpb25zIHBvaW50IHRvd2FyZHMgYSB icmlz ayB0ZW1wbywgZXhhY3RseSBsaWtlIEVuZ2xpc2ggc2FyYWJhbmRzIGF0IHRoZSBzYW1lIHR pbWU7 IExvY2tlIGFsd2F5cyBpbmRpY2F0ZSAmcXVvdDticmlzayZxdW90OyBmb3IgaGlzIHNhcmF iYW5k cyBmb3IgaW5zdGFuY2UuJm5ic3A7PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU 6MTJw dDttYXJnaW4tdG9wOjA7bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTowOyI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l 6ZTox MHB0OyI+QmVzdCB3aXNoZXMgdG8gYWxsPC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXN pemU6 MTJwdDttYXJnaW4tdG9wOjA7bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTowOyI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQ tc2l6 ZToxMHB0OyI+SmVhbi1NYXJpZSZuYnNwOzxicj48YnI+LS0tLS0tIE9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3N hZ2Ug LS0tLS0tPGJyPjxiPkZyb206Jm5ic3A7PC9iPk1hcnR5biBIb2Rnc29uIDxob2Rnc29ubWF ydHlu QHlhaG9vLmNvLnVrPjxicj48Yj5EYXRlOiZuYnNwOzwvYj4xNy8xMi8yMDE0IDk6NTM8YnI +PGI+ VG86Jm5ic3A7PC9iPlJvbiBBbmRyaWNvO1Rob21hcyBXYWxrZXI7bHV0ZUBjcy5kYXJ0bW9 1dGgu ZWR1Ozxicj48Yj5TdWJqZWN0OiZuYnNwOzwvYj5bTFVURV0gUmU6IHRob3NlIHNhcmFiYW5 kczxi cj48YnI+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxob2Rnc29ubWFydHluQHlhaG9vLmNvLnVrPjxwcmU+ICZ uYnNw OyZuYnNwO0RvIHlvdSByZWFsbHkgbWVhbiB0byBzYXkgdGhhdCB0aGUgdGVtcG8gb2YgYSB kYW5j ZSBwbGF5ZWQgb24sIHNheSwgdGhlDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7bHV0ZSBoYXMgbm8gcmVsYXR pb25z aGlwIHdoYXRzb2V2ZXIgdG8gdGhlIHRlbXBvIGF0IHdoaWNoDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Y29 udGVt cG9yYXJpZXMgYWN0dWFsbHkgZGFuY2VkIGl0Pw0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnNwO01IDQogJm5ic3A 7Jm5i c3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19 fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQoNCiAmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDtGcm9tOiBSb24gQW5 kcmlj byZuYnNwOzxwcmFlbHVkaWFAaG90bWFpbC5jb20+DQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7VG86IFRob21 hcyBX YWxrZXImbmJzcDs8dHdsdXRlZ3V5QGhvdG1haWwuY29tPjsgJnF1b3Q7bHV0ZUBjcy5kYXJ 0bW91 dGguZWR1JnF1b3Q7DQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7PGx1dGVAY3MuZGFydG1vdXRoLmVkdT4NCiA mbmJz cDsmbmJzcDtTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCAxNiBEZWNlbWJlciAyMDE0LCAyMDo1NQ0KICZuYnN wOyZu YnNwO1N1YmplY3Q6IFtMVVRFXSBSZTogdGhvc2Ugc2FyYWJhbmRzDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A 7Jm5i c3A7Jm5ic3A7SGVsbG8gVGhvbWFzOg0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwO0EgZ29 vZCBt b2Rlcm5pc2ggc291cmNlIG9mIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGNhbiBiZSBmb3VuZCBpbiBELiBKLiB CdWNo LA0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZxdW90O1RoZQ0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwO0l uZmx1 ZW5jZSBvZiB0aGUgQmFsbGV0IGRlIGNvdXIgaW4gdGhlIEdlbmVzaXMgb2YgdGhlIEZyZW5 jaCBC YXJvcXVlDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7U3VpdGUsJnF1b3Q7IEFjdGEgTXV zaWNv bG9naWNhLCBWb2wuIDU3LCBGYXNjLiAxIChKYW4uIC0gSnVuLiwgMTk4NSksIHBwLg0KICZ uYnNw OyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOzk0LTEwOS4gJm5ic3A7VGhlIHNhcmFiYW5kIGlzIGRpc2N 1c3Nl ZCBvbiBwYWdlIDEwMi4NCiAmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDtTaW5jZSBzbyBtdWN oIDE3 dGgtY2VudHVyeSBsdXRlIG11c2ljIGNvbnNpc3RlZCBvZiBib2lsZWQtZG93bg0KICZuYnN wOyZu YnNwO3ZlcnNpb25zDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7b2YgcG9wdWxhciBkYW5 jZSB0 dW5lcywgaXQgaW1wb3J0YW50IHRvIGtub3cgaG93IGEgcGFydGljdWxhciBkYW5jZQ0KICZ uYnNw OyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwO3dvcmtlZCBpbiBpdCdzIG9yaWdpbmFsIGNvbnRleHQuICZ uYnNw O1RoZW4gb25lIGhhcyB0byByZWFsaXplIHRoYXQsIHNpbmNlDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5 ic3A7 Jm5ic3A7bHV0ZXMgYXJlIGFuZCB3ZXJlIGluYXVkaWJsZSB3aGVuIGRhbmNlcidzIGZlZXQ gc2Ny YXBlIHRoZSBmbG9vciwgdGhlDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7bXVzaWMgaXM gYWRh cHRlZCBhbmQgcGVyZm9ybWVkIGluIHdoYXRldmVyIG1hbm5lciB0aGUgcGxheWVyIHdpc2h lcy4N CiAmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDtSQQ0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnN wOyZn dDsgRGF0ZTogTW9uLCAxNSBEZWMgMjAxNCAxNDowMzoxMyAtMDYwMA0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnN wOyZu YnNwOyZuYnNwOyZndDsgVG86IFsxXWx1dGVAY3MuZGFydG1vdXRoLmVkdQ0KICZuYnNwOyZ uYnNw OyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZndDsgRnJvbTogWzJddHdsdXRlZ3V5QGhvdG1haWwuY29tDQogJm5 ic3A7 Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jmd0OyBTdWJqZWN0OiBbTFVURV0gdGhvc2Ugc2FyYWJhbmR zDQog Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jmd0Ow0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnN wOyZn dDsgR3JlZXRpbmdzIGFsbC0tDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jmd0OyBJIGt ub3cg dGhlIHNhcmFiYW5kZSB3YXMgb3JpZ2luYWxseSBhIGxpdmVseSBkaXR0eSB3aGljaCBtb3J waGVk DQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7cHJldHR5DQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A 7Jm5i c3A7Jmd0OyB0aG9yb3VnaGx5IGJ5IHRoZSBsYXRlIDE3dGggY2VudHVyeS4gSSBoYXZlIGE gcXVl c3Rpb24gYWJvdXQgdGhlDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jmd0OyBtaWRkbGU gZ3Jv
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
My question ( ' Do you really mean to say that the tempo of a dance played on, say, the lute has no relationship whatsoever to the tempo at which contemporaries actually danced it?') was addressed to Ron Andrico not to Thomas Walker. Specifically I was asking Ron Andrico about his statement 'since lutes are and were inaudible when dancers' feet scrape the floor, the music is adapted and performed in whatever manner the player wishes.'. MH __ From: jmpoirier2 jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com; Thomas Walker twlute...@hotmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 17 December 2014, 9:23 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands I think Thomas was questioning the existing contemporary sources to choose a correct tempo for the saraband in the 1630s. To my knowledge Mersenne is the only one to address this question when he recapitulates all the dance movements of his time (1636) and his indications point towards a brisk tempo, exactly like English sarabands at the same time; Locke always indicate brisk for his sarabands for instance. Best wishes to all Jean-Marie -- Original Message -- From: Martyn Hodgson Date: 17/12/2014 9:53 To: Ron Andrico;Thomas Walker;lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Do you really mean to say that the tempo of a dance played on, say, the lute has no relationship whatsoever to the tempo at which contemporaries actually danced it? MH __ From: Ron Andrico To: Thomas Walker ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 16 December 2014, 20:55 Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Hello Thomas: A good modernish source of information can be found in D. J. Buch, The Influence of the Ballet de cour in the Genesis of the French Baroque Suite, Acta Musicologica, Vol. 57, Fasc. 1 (Jan. - Jun., 1985), pp. 94-109. The saraband is discussed on page 102. Since so much 17th-century lute music consisted of boiled-down versions of popular dance tunes, it important to know how a particular dance worked in it's original context. Then one has to realize that, since lutes are and were inaudible when dancer's feet scrape the floor, the music is adapted and performed in whatever manner the player wishes. RA Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:03:13 -0600 To: [1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [2]twlute...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] those sarabands Greetings all-- I know the sarabande was originally a lively ditty which morphed pretty thoroughly by the late 17th century. I have a question about the middle ground, in particular the sarabandes found in Ballard's prints from the 1630s, though. Many seem to work whether played lively or stately, and I know of an old Bailes recording where he positively burns through a sarabande by Mesangeau. I also have played sarabands in ensemble works by Jenkins et al that demanded a lively reading. The question is, what textual evidence do we have for expected tempi of sarabandes of the French school 1610-1640? Thank you kindly, Thomas Walker, Jr. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html 3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html --
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
What does this mean? __ From: jmpoirier2 jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com; Thomas Walker twlute...@hotmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 17 December 2014, 9:23 Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMHB0OyI+PHAgc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMnB 0O21h cmdpbi10b3A6MDttYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tOjA7Ij48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjE wcHQ7 Ij5JIHRoaW5rIFRob21hcyB3YXMgcXVlc3Rpb25pbmcgdGhlIGV4aXN0aW5nIGNvbnRlbXB vcmFy eSBzb3VyY2VzIHRvIGNob29zZSBhIGNvcnJlY3QgdGVtcG8gZm9yIHRoZSBzYXJhYmFuZCB pbiB0 aGUgMTYzMHMuJm5ic3A7PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTJwdDt tYXJn aW4tdG9wOjA7bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTowOyI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMHB 0OyI+ VG8gbXkga25vd2xlZGdlIE1lcnNlbm5lIGlzIHRoZSBvbmx5IG9uZSB0byBhZGRyZXNzIHR oaXMg cXVlc3Rpb24gd2hlbiBoZSByZWNhcGl0dWxhdGVzIGFsbCB0aGUgZGFuY2UgbW92ZW1lbnR zIG9m IGhpcyB0aW1lICgxNjM2KSBhbmQgaGlzIGluZGljYXRpb25zIHBvaW50IHRvd2FyZHMgYSB icmlz ayB0ZW1wbywgZXhhY3RseSBsaWtlIEVuZ2xpc2ggc2FyYWJhbmRzIGF0IHRoZSBzYW1lIHR pbWU7 IExvY2tlIGFsd2F5cyBpbmRpY2F0ZSAmcXVvdDticmlzayZxdW90OyBmb3IgaGlzIHNhcmF iYW5k cyBmb3IgaW5zdGFuY2UuJm5ic3A7PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU 6MTJw dDttYXJnaW4tdG9wOjA7bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTowOyI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l 6ZTox MHB0OyI+QmVzdCB3aXNoZXMgdG8gYWxsPC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXN pemU6 MTJwdDttYXJnaW4tdG9wOjA7bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTowOyI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQ tc2l6 ZToxMHB0OyI+SmVhbi1NYXJpZSZuYnNwOzxicj48YnI+LS0tLS0tIE9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3N hZ2Ug LS0tLS0tPGJyPjxiPkZyb206Jm5ic3A7PC9iPk1hcnR5biBIb2Rnc29uIDxob2Rnc29ubWF ydHlu QHlhaG9vLmNvLnVrPjxicj48Yj5EYXRlOiZuYnNwOzwvYj4xNy8xMi8yMDE0IDk6NTM8YnI +PGI+ VG86Jm5ic3A7PC9iPlJvbiBBbmRyaWNvO1Rob21hcyBXYWxrZXI7bHV0ZUBjcy5kYXJ0bW9 1dGgu ZWR1Ozxicj48Yj5TdWJqZWN0OiZuYnNwOzwvYj5bTFVURV0gUmU6IHRob3NlIHNhcmFiYW5 kczxi cj48YnI+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxob2Rnc29ubWFydHluQHlhaG9vLmNvLnVrPjxwcmU+ICZ uYnNw OyZuYnNwO0RvIHlvdSByZWFsbHkgbWVhbiB0byBzYXkgdGhhdCB0aGUgdGVtcG8gb2YgYSB kYW5j ZSBwbGF5ZWQgb24sIHNheSwgdGhlDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7bHV0ZSBoYXMgbm8gcmVsYXR pb25z aGlwIHdoYXRzb2V2ZXIgdG8gdGhlIHRlbXBvIGF0IHdoaWNoDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Y29 udGVt cG9yYXJpZXMgYWN0dWFsbHkgZGFuY2VkIGl0Pw0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnNwO01IDQogJm5ic3A 7Jm5i c3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19 fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQoNCiAmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDtGcm9tOiBSb24gQW5 kcmlj byZuYnNwOzxwcmFlbHVkaWFAaG90bWFpbC5jb20+DQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7VG86IFRob21 hcyBX YWxrZXImbmJzcDs8dHdsdXRlZ3V5QGhvdG1haWwuY29tPjsgJnF1b3Q7bHV0ZUBjcy5kYXJ 0bW91 dGguZWR1JnF1b3Q7DQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7PGx1dGVAY3MuZGFydG1vdXRoLmVkdT4NCiA mbmJz cDsmbmJzcDtTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCAxNiBEZWNlbWJlciAyMDE0LCAyMDo1NQ0KICZuYnN wOyZu YnNwO1N1YmplY3Q6IFtMVVRFXSBSZTogdGhvc2Ugc2FyYWJhbmRzDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A 7Jm5i c3A7Jm5ic3A7SGVsbG8gVGhvbWFzOg0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwO0EgZ29 vZCBt b2Rlcm5pc2ggc291cmNlIG9mIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGNhbiBiZSBmb3VuZCBpbiBELiBKLiB CdWNo LA0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZxdW90O1RoZQ0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwO0l uZmx1 ZW5jZSBvZiB0aGUgQmFsbGV0IGRlIGNvdXIgaW4gdGhlIEdlbmVzaXMgb2YgdGhlIEZyZW5 jaCBC YXJvcXVlDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7U3VpdGUsJnF1b3Q7IEFjdGEgTXV zaWNv bG9naWNhLCBWb2wuIDU3LCBGYXNjLiAxIChKYW4uIC0gSnVuLiwgMTk4NSksIHBwLg0KICZ uYnNw OyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOzk0LTEwOS4gJm5ic3A7VGhlIHNhcmFiYW5kIGlzIGRpc2N 1c3Nl ZCBvbiBwYWdlIDEwMi4NCiAmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDtTaW5jZSBzbyBtdWN oIDE3 dGgtY2VudHVyeSBsdXRlIG11c2ljIGNvbnNpc3RlZCBvZiBib2lsZWQtZG93bg0KICZuYnN wOyZu YnNwO3ZlcnNpb25zDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7b2YgcG9wdWxhciBkYW5 jZSB0 dW5lcywgaXQgaW1wb3J0YW50IHRvIGtub3cgaG93IGEgcGFydGljdWxhciBkYW5jZQ0KICZ uYnNw OyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwO3dvcmtlZCBpbiBpdCdzIG9yaWdpbmFsIGNvbnRleHQuICZ uYnNw O1RoZW4gb25lIGhhcyB0byByZWFsaXplIHRoYXQsIHNpbmNlDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5 ic3A7 Jm5ic3A7bHV0ZXMgYXJlIGFuZCB3ZXJlIGluYXVkaWJsZSB3aGVuIGRhbmNlcidzIGZlZXQ gc2Ny YXBlIHRoZSBmbG9vciwgdGhlDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7bXVzaWMgaXM gYWRh cHRlZCBhbmQgcGVyZm9ybWVkIGluIHdoYXRldmVyIG1hbm5lciB0aGUgcGxheWVyIHdpc2h lcy4N CiAmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDtSQQ0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnN wOyZn dDsgRGF0ZTogTW9uLCAxNSBEZWMgMjAxNCAxNDowMzoxMyAtMDYwMA0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnN wOyZu YnNwOyZuYnNwOyZndDsgVG86IFsxXWx1dGVAY3MuZGFydG1vdXRoLmVkdQ0KICZuYnNwOyZ uYnNw OyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZndDsgRnJvbTogWzJddHdsdXRlZ3V5QGhvdG1haWwuY29tDQogJm5 ic3A7 Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jmd0OyBTdWJqZWN0OiBbTFVURV0gdGhvc2Ugc2FyYWJhbmR
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
Since Jean Marie watches the OSS 117 movies all the time he is in spy mode (or mood) and encodes his mails with base64. Gesendet: Mittwoch, 17. Dezember 2014 um 10:23 Uhr Von: jmpoirier2 jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr An: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com, Thomas Walker twlute...@hotmail.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMHB0OyI+PHAgc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMnB 0O21h cmdpbi10b3A6MDttYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tOjA7Ij48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjE wcHQ7 Ij5JIHRoaW5rIFRob21hcyB3YXMgcXVlc3Rpb25pbmcgdGhlIGV4aXN0aW5nIGNvbnRlbXB vcmFy eSBzb3VyY2VzIHRvIGNob29zZSBhIGNvcnJlY3QgdGVtcG8gZm9yIHRoZSBzYXJhYmFuZCB pbiB0 aGUgMTYzMHMuJm5ic3A7PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTJwdDt tYXJn aW4tdG9wOjA7bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTowOyI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMHB 0OyI+ VG8gbXkga25vd2xlZGdlIE1lcnNlbm5lIGlzIHRoZSBvbmx5IG9uZSB0byBhZGRyZXNzIHR oaXMg cXVlc3Rpb24gd2hlbiBoZSByZWNhcGl0dWxhdGVzIGFsbCB0aGUgZGFuY2UgbW92ZW1lbnR zIG9m IGhpcyB0aW1lICgxNjM2KSBhbmQgaGlzIGluZGljYXRpb25zIHBvaW50IHRvd2FyZHMgYSB icmlz ayB0ZW1wbywgZXhhY3RseSBsaWtlIEVuZ2xpc2ggc2FyYWJhbmRzIGF0IHRoZSBzYW1lIHR pbWU7 IExvY2tlIGFsd2F5cyBpbmRpY2F0ZSAmcXVvdDticmlzayZxdW90OyBmb3IgaGlzIHNhcmF iYW5k cyBmb3IgaW5zdGFuY2UuJm5ic3A7PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU 6MTJw dDttYXJnaW4tdG9wOjA7bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTowOyI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l 6ZTox MHB0OyI+QmVzdCB3aXNoZXMgdG8gYWxsPC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXN pemU6 MTJwdDttYXJnaW4tdG9wOjA7bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTowOyI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQ tc2l6 ZToxMHB0OyI+SmVhbi1NYXJpZSZuYnNwOzxicj48YnI+LS0tLS0tIE9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3N hZ2Ug LS0tLS0tPGJyPjxiPkZyb206Jm5ic3A7PC9iPk1hcnR5biBIb2Rnc29uIDxob2Rnc29ubWF ydHlu QHlhaG9vLmNvLnVrPjxicj48Yj5EYXRlOiZuYnNwOzwvYj4xNy8xMi8yMDE0IDk6NTM8YnI +PGI+ VG86Jm5ic3A7PC9iPlJvbiBBbmRyaWNvO1Rob21hcyBXYWxrZXI7bHV0ZUBjcy5kYXJ0bW9 1dGgu ZWR1Ozxicj48Yj5TdWJqZWN0OiZuYnNwOzwvYj5bTFVURV0gUmU6IHRob3NlIHNhcmFiYW5 kczxi cj48YnI+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxob2Rnc29ubWFydHluQHlhaG9vLmNvLnVrPjxwcmU+ICZ uYnNw OyZuYnNwO0RvIHlvdSByZWFsbHkgbWVhbiB0byBzYXkgdGhhdCB0aGUgdGVtcG8gb2YgYSB kYW5j ZSBwbGF5ZWQgb24sIHNheSwgdGhlDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7bHV0ZSBoYXMgbm8gcmVsYXR pb25z aGlwIHdoYXRzb2V2ZXIgdG8gdGhlIHRlbXBvIGF0IHdoaWNoDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Y29 udGVt cG9yYXJpZXMgYWN0dWFsbHkgZGFuY2VkIGl0Pw0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnNwO01IDQogJm5ic3A 7Jm5i c3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19 fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQoNCiAmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDtGcm9tOiBSb24gQW5 kcmlj byZuYnNwOzxwcmFlbHVkaWFAaG90bWFpbC5jb20+DQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7VG86IFRob21 hcyBX YWxrZXImbmJzcDs8dHdsdXRlZ3V5QGhvdG1haWwuY29tPjsgJnF1b3Q7bHV0ZUBjcy5kYXJ 0bW91 dGguZWR1JnF1b3Q7DQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7PGx1dGVAY3MuZGFydG1vdXRoLmVkdT4NCiA mbmJz cDsmbmJzcDtTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCAxNiBEZWNlbWJlciAyMDE0LCAyMDo1NQ0KICZuYnN wOyZu YnNwO1N1YmplY3Q6IFtMVVRFXSBSZTogdGhvc2Ugc2FyYWJhbmRzDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A 7Jm5i c3A7Jm5ic3A7SGVsbG8gVGhvbWFzOg0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwO0EgZ29 vZCBt b2Rlcm5pc2ggc291cmNlIG9mIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGNhbiBiZSBmb3VuZCBpbiBELiBKLiB CdWNo LA0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZxdW90O1RoZQ0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwO0l uZmx1 ZW5jZSBvZiB0aGUgQmFsbGV0IGRlIGNvdXIgaW4gdGhlIEdlbmVzaXMgb2YgdGhlIEZyZW5 jaCBC YXJvcXVlDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7U3VpdGUsJnF1b3Q7IEFjdGEgTXV zaWNv bG9naWNhLCBWb2wuIDU3LCBGYXNjLiAxIChKYW4uIC0gSnVuLiwgMTk4NSksIHBwLg0KICZ uYnNw OyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOzk0LTEwOS4gJm5ic3A7VGhlIHNhcmFiYW5kIGlzIGRpc2N 1c3Nl ZCBvbiBwYWdlIDEwMi4NCiAmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDtTaW5jZSBzbyBtdWN oIDE3 dGgtY2VudHVyeSBsdXRlIG11c2ljIGNvbnNpc3RlZCBvZiBib2lsZWQtZG93bg0KICZuYnN wOyZu YnNwO3ZlcnNpb25zDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7b2YgcG9wdWxhciBkYW5 jZSB0 dW5lcywgaXQgaW1wb3J0YW50IHRvIGtub3cgaG93IGEgcGFydGljdWxhciBkYW5jZQ0KICZ uYnNw OyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwO3dvcmtlZCBpbiBpdCdzIG9yaWdpbmFsIGNvbnRleHQuICZ uYnNw O1RoZW4gb25lIGhhcyB0byByZWFsaXplIHRoYXQsIHNpbmNlDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5 ic3A7 Jm5ic3A7bHV0ZXMgYXJlIGFuZCB3ZXJlIGluYXVkaWJsZSB3aGVuIGRhbmNlcidzIGZlZXQ gc2Ny YXBlIHRoZSBmbG9vciwgdGhlDQogJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7bXVzaWMgaXM gYWRh cHRlZCBhbmQgcGVyZm9ybWVkIGluIHdoYXRldmVyIG1hbm5lciB0aGUgcGxheWVyIHdpc2h lcy4N CiAmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDtSQQ0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnN wOyZn dDsgRGF0ZTogTW9uLCAxNSBEZWMgMjAxNCAxNDowMzoxMyAtMDYwMA0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnN wOyZu YnNwOyZuYnNwOyZndDsgVG86IFsxXWx1dGVAY3MuZGFydG1vdXRoLmVkdQ0KICZuYnNwOyZ uYnNw OyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZndDsgRnJvbTogWzJddHdsdXRlZ3V5QGhvdG1haWwuY29tDQogJm5 ic3A7 Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jmd0OyBTdWJqZWN0OiBbTFVURV0gdGhvc2Ugc2FyYWJhbmR zDQog Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jmd0Ow0KICZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnN wOyZn
[LUTE] what JMPoirier really wanted to say about those sarabands
Begin forwarded message: From: jmpoirier2 jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com, Thomas Walker twlute...@hotmail.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Date: December 17, 2014 at 4:23:40 AM EST I think Thomas was questioning the existing contemporary sources to choose a correct tempo for the saraband in the 1630s. To my knowledge Mersenne is the only one to address this question when he recapitulates all the dance movements of his time (1636) and his indications point towards a brisk tempo, exactly like English sarabands at the same time; Locke always indicate brisk for his sarabands for instance. Best wishes to all Jean-Marie -- Original Message -- From: Martyn Hodgson Date: 17/12/2014 9:53 To: Ron Andrico;Thomas Walker;lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Do you really mean to say that the tempo of a dance played on, say, the lute has no relationship whatsoever to the tempo at which contemporaries actually danced it? MH __ From: Ron Andrico To: Thomas Walker ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 16 December 2014, 20:55 Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Hello Thomas: A good modernish source of information can be found in D. J. Buch, The Influence of the Ballet de cour in the Genesis of the French Baroque Suite, Acta Musicologica, Vol. 57, Fasc. 1 (Jan. - Jun., 1985), pp. 94-109. The saraband is discussed on page 102. Since so much 17th-century lute music consisted of boiled-down versions of popular dance tunes, it important to know how a particular dance worked in it's original context. Then one has to realize that, since lutes are and were inaudible when dancer's feet scrape the floor, the music is adapted and performed in whatever manner the player wishes. RA Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:03:13 -0600 To: [1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [2]twlute...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] those sarabands Greetings all-- I know the sarabande was originally a lively ditty which morphed pretty thoroughly by the late 17th century. I have a question about the middle ground, in particular the sarabandes found in Ballard's prints from the 1630s, though. Many seem to work whether played lively or stately, and I know of an old Bailes recording where he positively burns through a sarabande by Mesangeau. I also have played sarabands in ensemble works by Jenkins et al that demanded a lively reading. The question is, what textual evidence do we have for expected tempi of sarabandes of the French school 1610-1640? Thank you kindly, Thomas Walker, Jr. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html 3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html --
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
Thanks for the responses, all. The lute-specific sources are few, but unambiguous as to advice on tempi, it seems. It's a big help. I'll have to investigate Ron's recommended source, too. The question of dance-able tempi is a perennial one. The various lute galliards, by Piccinini or Dowland, for instance, not only are almost impossible to play at dance tempo, but often work musically better at something more moderate...which is not to say, slow. Just slower... Best, tom __ From: jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; praelu...@hotmail.com; twlute...@hotmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 09:23:40 + I think Thomas was questioning the existing contemporary sources to choose a correct tempo for the saraband in the 1630s. To my knowledge Mersenne is the only one to address this question when he recapitulates all the dance movements of his time (1636) and his indications point towards a brisk tempo, exactly like English sarabands at the same time; Locke always indicate brisk for his sarabands for instance. Best wishes to all Jean-Marie -- Original Message -- From: Martyn Hodgson Date: 17/12/2014 9:53 To: Ron Andrico;Thomas Walker;lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Do you really mean to say that the tempo of a dance played on, say, the lute has no relationship whatsoever to the tempo at which contemporaries actually danced it? MH __ From: Ron Andrico To: Thomas Walker ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 16 December 2014, 20:55 Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Hello Thomas: A good modernish source of information can be found in D. J. Buch, The Influence of the Ballet de cour in the Genesis of the French Baroque Suite, Acta Musicologica, Vol. 57, Fasc. 1 (Jan. - Jun., 1985), pp. 94-109. The saraband is discussed on page 102. Since so much 17th-century lute music consisted of boiled-down versions of popular dance tunes, it important to know how a particular dance worked in it's original context. Then one has to realize that, since lutes are and were inaudible when dancer's feet scrape the floor, the music is adapted and performed in whatever manner the player wishes. RA Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:03:13 -0600 To: [1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [2]twlute...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] those sarabands Greetings all-- I know the sarabande was originally a lively ditty which morphed pretty thoroughly by the late 17th century. I have a question about the middle ground, in particular the sarabandes found in Ballard's prints from the 1630s, though. Many seem to work whether played lively or stately, and I know of an old Bailes recording where he positively burns through a sarabande by Mesangeau. I also have played sarabands in ensemble works by Jenkins et al that demanded a lively reading. The question is, what textual evidence do we have for expected tempi of sarabandes of the French school 1610-1640? Thank you kindly, Thomas Walker, Jr. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html 3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html --
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
Ron did not say there was no relationship whatever” between playing and dancing a sarabande. He used the word “adapted.” Within the parameters of the dance itself, I agree with Ron entirely: “yes” in answer to MH’s question. Given what we know about the performance of other dances, for example galliards: definitely “yes. The original question concerned specifically the French school of 1610-1640” and mentions specifically Ballard. During that period sarabandes were frequently danced when an entree was called for. Do you have a specific metronome marking for playing all of Ballard’s Entrees? I hope not. The dancing masters of the time characterized the sarabande variously as brisk or slow: it can be danced equally well either way, within the floor-plan description of the dance itself. It was also considered “scandalous.” Do you have a tempo for “scandalous?” There is also some confusion here regarding the execution of sarabandes with or without dancers present. On stage, with no dancers present, I suggest that the player is perfectly free to choose whatever tempo he wishes. In his efforts to preserve an era in which no metronomes existed, I would say that the player is free to play sarabandes as scandalously as he wishes. David R On Dec 17, 2014, at 3:52 AM, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Do you really mean to say that the tempo of a dance played on, say, the lute has no relationship whatsoever to the tempo at which contemporaries actually danced it? MH __ From: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com To: Thomas Walker twlute...@hotmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 16 December 2014, 20:55 Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Hello Thomas: A good modernish source of information can be found in D. J. Buch, The Influence of the Ballet de cour in the Genesis of the French Baroque Suite, Acta Musicologica, Vol. 57, Fasc. 1 (Jan. - Jun., 1985), pp. 94-109. The saraband is discussed on page 102. Since so much 17th-century lute music consisted of boiled-down versions of popular dance tunes, it important to know how a particular dance worked in it's original context. Then one has to realize that, since lutes are and were inaudible when dancer's feet scrape the floor, the music is adapted and performed in whatever manner the player wishes. RA Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:03:13 -0600 To: [1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [2]twlute...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] those sarabands Greetings all-- I know the sarabande was originally a lively ditty which morphed pretty thoroughly by the late 17th century. I have a question about the middle ground, in particular the sarabandes found in Ballard's prints from the 1630s, though. Many seem to work whether played lively or stately, and I know of an old Bailes recording where he positively burns through a sarabande by Mesangeau. I also have played sarabands in ensemble works by Jenkins et al that demanded a lively reading. The question is, what textual evidence do we have for expected tempi of sarabandes of the French school 1610-1640? Thank you kindly, Thomas Walker, Jr. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html 3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
Thanks for noticing my wry comment, Martyn. I really mean to say that, while the original context of the dance is important, the lute was of very little consequence as a functional instrument supplying music for the actual dance. When one reads descriptions of performance of 17th-century French solo lute music, the music is invariably played with great emotional investment and in the salon, not in the dance hall. Believe me, having played functional dance music for nearly 40 years, I have a truly physical response when it comes to proper and danceable rhythm. But I am firm in the belief that French dance music adapted for solo lute, which was not necessarily always performed as complete suites as we hear in recordings of today, was and still should be played with flexibility as befits the spirit of the instrument and the sounds it makes. RA __ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 08:52:29 + From: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: praelu...@hotmail.com; twlute...@hotmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Do you really mean to say that the tempo of a dance played on, say, the lute has no relationship whatsoever to the tempo at which contemporaries actually danced it? MH __ From: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com To: Thomas Walker twlute...@hotmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 16 December 2014, 20:55 Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Hello Thomas: A good modernish source of information can be found in D. J. Buch, The Influence of the Ballet de cour in the Genesis of the French Baroque Suite, Acta Musicologica, Vol. 57, Fasc. 1 (Jan. - Jun., 1985), pp. 94-109. The saraband is discussed on page 102. Since so much 17th-century lute music consisted of boiled-down versions of popular dance tunes, it important to know how a particular dance worked in it's original context. Then one has to realize that, since lutes are and were inaudible when dancer's feet scrape the floor, the music is adapted and performed in whatever manner the player wishes. RA Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:03:13 -0600 To: [1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [2]twlute...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] those sarabands Greetings all-- I know the sarabande was originally a lively ditty which morphed pretty thoroughly by the late 17th century. I have a question about the middle ground, in particular the sarabandes found in Ballard's prints from the 1630s, though. Many seem to work whether played lively or stately, and I know of an old Bailes recording where he positively burns through a sarabande by Mesangeau. I also have played sarabands in ensemble works by Jenkins et al that demanded a lively reading. The question is, what textual evidence do we have for expected tempi of sarabandes of the French school 1610-1640? Thank you kindly, Thomas Walker, Jr. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. https:/// 2. https:/// 3. https:///
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
Thanks, David. Your clarification says it all and I agree completely. RA Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 09:48:08 -0500 To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk CC: praelu...@hotmail.com; twlute...@hotmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: d_lu...@comcast.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Ron did not say there was no relationship whatever between playing and dancing a sarabande. He used the word adapted. Within the parameters of the dance itself, I agree with Ron entirely: yes in answer to MHs question. Given what we know about the performance of other dances, for example galliards: definitely yes. The original question concerned specifically the French school of 1610-1640 and mentions specifically Ballard. During that period sarabandes were frequently danced when an entree was called for. Do you have a specific metronome marking for playing all of Ballards Entrees? I hope not. The dancing masters of the time characterized the sarabande variously as brisk or slow: it can be danced equally well either way, within the floor-plan description of the dance itself. It was also considered scandalous. Do you have a tempo for scandalous? There is also some confusion here regarding the execution of sarabandes with or without dancers present. On stage, with no dancers present, I suggest that the player is perfectly free to choose whatever tempo he wishes. In his efforts to preserve an era in which no metronomes existed, I would say that the player is free to play sarabandes as scandalously as he wishes. David R On Dec 17, 2014, at 3:52 AM, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Do you really mean to say that the tempo of a dance played on, say, the lute has no relationship whatsoever to the tempo at which contemporaries actually danced it? MH __ From: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com To: Thomas Walker twlute...@hotmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 16 December 2014, 20:55 Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Hello Thomas: A good modernish source of information can be found in D. J. Buch, The Influence of the Ballet de cour in the Genesis of the French Baroque Suite, Acta Musicologica, Vol. 57, Fasc. 1 (Jan. - Jun., 1985), pp. 94-109. The saraband is discussed on page 102. Since so much 17th-century lute music consisted of boiled-down versions of popular dance tunes, it important to know how a particular dance worked in it's original context. Then one has to realize that, since lutes are and were inaudible when dancer's feet scrape the floor, the music is adapted and performed in whatever manner the player wishes. RA Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:03:13 -0600 To: [1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [2]twlute...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] those sarabands Greetings all-- I know the sarabande was originally a lively ditty which morphed pretty thoroughly by the late 17th century. I have a question about the middle ground, in particular the sarabandes found in Ballard's prints from the 1630s, though. Many seem to work whether played lively or stately, and I know of an old Bailes recording where he positively burns through a sarabande by Mesangeau. I also have played sarabands in ensemble works by Jenkins et al that demanded a lively reading. The question is, what textual evidence do we have for expected tempi of sarabandes of the French school 1610-1640? Thank you kindly, Thomas Walker, Jr. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html 3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html --
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
On Dec 17, 2014, at 10:28 AM, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: ...are you quite sure that you yourself really intend to say (below) ' with no dancers present, I suggest that the player is perfectly free to choose whatever tempo he wishesâ? Of course, a modern player can do what they like: but I think the issue raised was more to do with evidence of historical practice - hence Thomas Walker's reasonable request for early sources. Yes, certainly a reasonable request. And yes, that is what I intended to say. My response to Thomas Walkerâs request is: evidence of historical practice would most likely take the form of evidence gleaned from dancing masters of how the dance itself was to be done. Soâ¦go to the dancing masters for that. As to what I intended to say, just exactly what performance tempo meant to a lone lutenist in the early 17th century I couldnât say, but Iâm sure there was plenty of variety in the ways dance pieces were interpreted in the absence of any structured environment involving dancers. I took the issue raisedâ to be: early sources as a guide to contemporary performance tempi. Hence the reference to a recording by Bailes. I could be completely wrong here; Iâm treading on ground I know very little about. But surely dance music is every bit as ambiguous as, say, ricercars and fantasias. Or was there actually a set tempo for all sarabandes performed between 1610 and 1640? If so, thereâs the answer to Thomas Walkerâs question. My thought is that Iâm sure there must have been slight variationsâ¦and in the absence of metronome markings even the original sources would have been ambiguous on the subject. Davis R Martyn From: David Rastall d_lu...@comcast.net To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com; Thomas Walker twlute...@hotmail.com; Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 17 December 2014, 14:48 Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Ron did not say there was no relationship whateverâ between playing and dancing a sarabande. He used the word âadapted.â Within the parameters of the dance itself, I agree with Ron entirely: âyesâ in answer to MHâs question. Given what we know about the performance of other dances, for example galliards: definitely âyes. The original question concerned specifically the French school of 1610-1640â and mentions specifically Ballard. During that period sarabandes were frequently danced when an entree was called for. Do you have a specific metronome marking for playing all of Ballardâs Entrees? I hope not. The dancing masters of the time characterized the sarabande variously as brisk or slow: it can be danced equally well either way, within the floor-plan description of the dance itself. It was also considered âscandalous.â Do you have a tempo for âscandalous?â There is also some confusion here regarding the execution of sarabandes with or without dancers present. On stage, with no dancers present, I suggest that the player is perfectly free to choose whatever tempo he wishes. In his efforts to preserve an era in which no metronomes existed, I would say that the player is free to play sarabandes as scandalously as he wishes. David R On Dec 17, 2014, at 3:52 AM, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Do you really mean to say that the tempo of a dance played on, say, the lute has no relationship whatsoever to the tempo at which contemporaries actually danced it? MH __ From: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com To: Thomas Walker twlute...@hotmail.com mailto:twlute...@hotmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 16 December 2014, 20:55 Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Hello Thomas: A good modernish source of information can be found in D. J. Buch, The Influence of the Ballet de cour in the Genesis of the French Baroque Suite, Acta Musicologica, Vol. 57, Fasc. 1 (Jan. - Jun., 1985), pp. 94-109. The saraband is discussed on page 102. Since so much 17th-century lute music consisted of boiled-down versions of popular dance tunes, it important to know how a particular dance worked in it's original context. Then one has to realize that, since lutes are and were inaudible when dancer's feet scrape the floor, the music is adapted and performed in whatever manner the player wishes. RA Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:03:13 -0600 To: [1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [2]twlute...@hotmail.com mailto:twlute...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] those sarabands Greetings all-- I know the sarabande
[LUTE] Blog post - canon a 3 for voice, lute and harp
Getting off the subject of sarabands and stepping backwards in time, we have a new post featuring O virgo splendens for voice, lute and harp. [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-15H Ron Donna -- References 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-15H To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
Agreed David on the possible variations in the tempo but the scant evidence points towards something rather light and not the heavy pulse of later baroque say from the Versailles period. Early baroque was a different world altogether... Best, Jean-Marie -- Original Message -- From: David Rastall Date: 17/12/2014 17:43 To: Martyn Hodgson; Cc: Lute List; Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands On Dec 17, 2014, at 10:28 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: ...are you quite sure that you yourself really intend to say (below) ' wi th no dancers present, I suggest that the player is perfectly free to choose wha tever tempo he wishes'? Of course, a modern player can do what they like: but I think the issue raised was more to do with evidence of historical practice - h ence Thomas Walker's reasonable request for early sources. Yes, certainly a reasonable request. And yes, that is what I intended to say. My response to Thomas Walker's request is: evidence of historical practice woul d most likely take the form of evidence gleaned from dancing masters of how the dance itself was to be done. So...go to the dancing masters for that. As to what I intended to say, just exactly what performance tempo meant to a lon e lutenist in the early 17th century I couldn't say, but I'm sure there was plen ty of variety in the ways dance pieces were interpreted in the absence of any st ructured environment involving dancers. I took the issue raised to be: early sources as a guide to contemporary performance tempi. Hence the reference to a recording by Bailes. I could be completely wrong here; I'm treading on ground I know very little abo ut. But surely dance music is every bit as ambiguous as, say, ricercars and fan tasias. Or was there actually a set tempo for all sarabandes performed between 1610 and 1640? If so, there's the answer to Thomas Walker's question. My thoug ht is that I'm sure there must have been slight variations...and in the absence of metronome markings even the original sources would have been ambiguous on the subject. Davis R Martyn From: David Rastall To: Martyn Hodgson Cc: Ron Andrico ; Thomas Walker ; Lute List Sent: Wednesday, 17 December 2014, 14:48 Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Ron did not say there was no relationship whatever between playing and danci ng a sarabande. He used the word adapted. Within the parameters of the dance itself, I agree with Ron entirely: yes in answer to MH's question. Given wh at we know about the performance of other dances, for example galliards: defini tely yes. The original question concerned specifically the French school of 1610-1640 and mentions specifically Ballard. During that period sarabandes wer e frequently danced when an entree was called for. Do you have a specific metro nome marking for playing all of Ballard's Entrees? I hope not. The dancing mas ters of the time characterized the sarabande variously as brisk or slow: it can be danced equally well either way, within the floor-plan description of the dan ce itself. It was also considered scandalous. Do you have a tempo for scand alous? There is also some confusion here regarding the execution of sarabandes with o r without dancers present. On stage, with no dancers present, I suggest that th e player is perfectly free to choose whatever tempo he wishes. In his efforts t o preserve an era in which no metronomes existed, I would say that the player is free to play sarabandes as scandalously as he wishes. David R On Dec 17, 2014, at 3:52 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Do you really mean to say that the tempo of a dance played on, say, the lute has no relationship whatsoever to the tempo at which contemporaries actually danced it? MH __ From: Ron Andrico To: Thomas Walker ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 16 December 2014, 20:55 Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Hello Thomas: A good modernish source of information can be found in D. J. Buch, The Influence of the Ballet de cour in the Genesis of the French Baroque Suite, Acta Musicologica, Vol. 57, Fasc. 1 (Jan. - Jun., 1985), pp. 94-109. The saraband is discussed on page 102. Since so much 17th-century lute music consisted of boiled-down versions of popular dance tunes, it important to know how a particular dance worked in it's original context. Then one has to realize that, since lutes are and were inaudible when dancer's feet scrape the floor, the music is adapted and performed in whatever manner the player wishes. RA Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:03:13 -0600 To: [1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [2]twlute...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] those sarabands Greetings all-- I know the sarabande was originally a lively ditty which morphed pretty thoroughly by the late 17th century. I have
[LUTE] Duncomb's Galliard
Greetings, Does anyone have this wonderful duet? I have the parts but its a bit hard to read... You folks helped before on this same sort of request...again? Thanks! Charles -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
May I remark that, with, say, Mesangeau's sarabands the case is just opposite of what has so far been discussed here. Their texture is so simple and plain that some players have difficulties with keeping a slow pace. Anthony Bailes once recorded one of Mesangeau's sarabands in a scandalously fast and furious tempo (pun intended). Others followed his example with other sarabands by Mesangeau. But Bailes rejected their approach, saying that fast sarabands were, so to say, the exception to the rule. On another note, Mace wrote that (his) sarabands were to be executed quickly whereas his Galliard were solemn and grave pieces (or another phrasing to the effect). I was pondering if he possibly mistook one for the other (highly improbable) or if his music reflected the state of affairs some 40 years before his book was printed. May I add that fast tempo really makes sense with Mace's sarabands. Mathias -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of jmpoirier2 Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 6:14 PM To: David Rastall; Martyn Hodgson Cc: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Agreed David on the possible variations in the tempo but the scant evidence points towards something rather light and not the heavy pulse of later baroque say from the Versailles period. Early baroque was a different world altogether... Best, Jean-Marie -- Original Message -- From: David Rastall Date: 17/12/2014 17:43 To: Martyn Hodgson; Cc: Lute List; Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands On Dec 17, 2014, at 10:28 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: ...are you quite sure that you yourself really intend to say (below) ' wi th no dancers present, I suggest that the player is perfectly free to choose wha tever tempo he wishes'? Of course, a modern player can do what they like: but I think the issue raised was more to do with evidence of historical practice - h ence Thomas Walker's reasonable request for early sources. Yes, certainly a reasonable request. And yes, that is what I intended to say. My response to Thomas Walker's request is: evidence of historical practice woul d most likely take the form of evidence gleaned from dancing masters of how the dance itself was to be done. So...go to the dancing masters for that. As to what I intended to say, just exactly what performance tempo meant to a lon e lutenist in the early 17th century I couldn't say, but I'm sure there was plen ty of variety in the ways dance pieces were interpreted in the absence of any st ructured environment involving dancers. I took the issue raised to be: early sources as a guide to contemporary performance tempi. Hence the reference to a recording by Bailes. I could be completely wrong here; I'm treading on ground I know very little abo ut. But surely dance music is every bit as ambiguous as, say, ricercars and fan tasias. Or was there actually a set tempo for all sarabandes performed between 1610 and 1640? If so, there's the answer to Thomas Walker's question. My thoug ht is that I'm sure there must have been slight variations...and in the absence of metronome markings even the original sources would have been ambiguous on the subject. Davis R Martyn From: David Rastall To: Martyn Hodgson Cc: Ron Andrico ; Thomas Walker ; Lute List Sent: Wednesday, 17 December 2014, 14:48 Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Ron did not say there was no relationship whatever between playing and danci ng a sarabande. He used the word adapted. Within the parameters of the dance itself, I agree with Ron entirely: yes in answer to MH's question. Given wh at we know about the performance of other dances, for example galliards: defini tely yes. The original question concerned specifically the French school of 1610-1640 and mentions specifically Ballard. During that period sarabandes wer e frequently danced when an entree was called for. Do you have a specific metro nome marking for playing all of Ballard's Entrees? I hope not. The dancing mas ters of the time characterized the sarabande variously as brisk or slow: it can be danced equally well either way, within the floor-plan description of the dan ce itself. It was also considered scandalous. Do you have a tempo for scand alous? There is also some confusion here regarding the execution of sarabandes with o r without dancers present. On stage, with no dancers present, I suggest that th e player is perfectly free to choose whatever tempo he wishes. In his efforts t o preserve an era in which no metronomes existed, I would say that the player is free to play sarabandes as scandalously as he wishes. David R On Dec 17, 2014, at 3:52 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Do you really mean to say that the tempo of a dance played
