[LUTE] Re: Rethorique des Dieux, English translation of preface?

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear David

Not a direct answer, but a link to the tricky story of the Rhétorique:
https://accordsnouveaux.ch/en/la-rhetorique-des-dieux/bremen-lecture-2013

There’s a big gap between the goals of Anne-Achille de Chambré, explained in 
the foreword, and the real book.

Enjoy!

Andreas

> Am 09.09.2020 um 07:25 schrieb David van Ooijen :
> 
>  Dear collected mind.
> 
>  Could someone direct me to such, if available?
> 
>  David
> 
>  --
> 
>  ***
>  David van Ooijen
>  [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>  [2]https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com
>  ***
> 
>  --
> 
> References
> 
>  1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>  2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lanturulu

[Andreas Schlegel]

   Dear Rainer

   In my book I tell the whole story and you will find many literature on
   that topic. Important is the article by

   [1]https://accordsnouveaux.ch/en/the-von-erlach-lute-book

   or in German:

   [2]https://accordsnouveaux.ch/de/lautenbuch-der-von-erlach

   Important is the article by

   Éva Guillorel: Révolte populaire et chanson politique sous le règne de
   Louis XIII : l'exemple des Lanturlus de Dijon, Annales de Bourgogne,
   2019.

   All the best

   Andreas

   Am 16.06.2020 um 10:09 schrieb Seicento/Rainer Luckhardt
   <[3]seicentomu...@arcor.de>:

   Dear collected wisdom,
   I'm looking for the italian words of the song "Lanturulú". It has been
   sung by burgundian peasants and winemakers when they made a rebellion
   in february 1630 in Dijon against the tax increase and reduction of
   their privileges decreeded by king Louis XIII. But the melody must have
   been known before in Italy, because Buonamente wrote in 1626 already a
   Sonata for 2 Violins and BC using this song. In the ms. Barb.Lat. 4177
   (Vatican, Rome) there is only one italian verse with alfabeto chords.
   It seems that it was a very popular satirical song against the french
   king, because it has been printed many times (Sanz, Corbetta, Carbonchi
   and others).
   Il puovero Re di francia quando era picciolino
   come [via] la lancia e da[n]a in un Quarino (?)
   adesso [è] Re le grande non Laca[r]e piu.
   Lanturlúru, etc.
   The words/letters in brackets are hard to read in the ms. and my
   interpretation is probably wrong. Does by chance anyone know another
   source for the italian words?
   Rainer
   --
   __
   SEICENTO-Notenversand
   Rainer Luckhardt
   Holbeinstrasse 12
   D-79312 Emmendingen
   Tel. ++49/(0)7641 - 932803
   Internet: [4]www.seicentomusic.de
   VAT/UID-Nr. DE 142 047 317
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://accordsnouveaux.ch/en/the-von-erlach-lute-book
   2. https://accordsnouveaux.ch/de/lautenbuch-der-von-erlach
   3. mailto:seicentomu...@arcor.de
   4. http://www.seicentomusic.de/
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Ballard 1612

[Andreas Schlegel]

   Dear Stewart

   Have a look on my CD-book on the von Erlach Lute Book:

   [1]https://accordsnouveaux.ch/en/the-von-erlach-lute-book

   and scroll down to the index. You will see there some colours and then
   read my introduction.

   It's just your topic: Lute books of the first half of the 17th century
   are of course very important sources for popular melodies which
   sometimes survive only in lute books. "Lute pieces" are often „only"
   song settings adapted for the lute - but made in the specific
   lutenistic style. And the so called „timbres" have very often texts of
   very different character: as a Noël (Christmas carol), as a drinking
   song, as a political pamphlet song and so on.

   A lute book which includes such song arrangements tells much more than
   a „normal" source - but very often, we as players of the 21st century
   don't recognise the melodies which were common for nearly all listeners
   in the 17th century - with all their textual implications.

   A nice example from Ballard 1612-B is track 29 of the context-CD.

   Andreas

   Am 03.02.2020 um 00:48 schrieb Stewart McCoy
   <[2]lu...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>:

   Many thanks, Andreas. I've downloaded the two appendices, which are a
   mine of information, and which will keep me busy for some time.
   Good luck with your talk to the Lute Society.
   Best wishes,
   Stewart.
   -----Original Message- From: Andreas Schlegel
   Sent: Sunday, February 2, 2020 10:53 AM
   To: Stewart McCoy
   Cc: lute list
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ballard 1612
There's an important article on that topic by Franà �ois-Pierre Goy:
LA PRATIQUE DE LA PARODIE SPIRITUELLE DANS UN MONASTÈRE TROYEN AU
   XVIIe
SIÈCLE les ï � � Cantiques spirituels faits à  la Visitassion Ste
   Marie ï � �
(F-T Ms. 1686)
The book can be ordered here:
[1][3]http://societe-champenoise-de-musicologie.org/Cahiers_remois_de_
   musi
cologie.html
Scroll to the third book.
There are links to the two annexes which include some Airs with
parodies by Berthod.
On next Saturday I will speak at the Lute Society Meeting and play
   from
the von Erlach lute book. The topic of the „travel" of melodies is
   one
important part of my mini-recital at 11:30.
[2][4]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/meetings
I hope to see you there!
Andreas
Am 02.02.2020 um 00:37 schrieb Stewart McCoy
<[5]lu...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>:
Thanks, Rainer. Much appreciated.
There are some other interesting books to be found at the same
   library.
If
you click on "Rechercher" and do a search for "luth", you'll find more
tablature with a copy of Piccinini.  There is also an interesting
looking collection of songs by Chancy. Most intriguing are three song
collections
(in one volume) by Franà �ois Berthod, who flourished in the 1650s. He
took
songs by well-known French composers, and replaced their words with a
spiritual text. There is a brief Wiki article about him. On the title
page of his books there is a left-handed lute-player with a six-string
(single courses) lute. All the songs are for two voices - treble and
bass - with both parts texted. There are no figures for the bass part,
yet a chordal accompaniment on a lute or theorbo should nevertheless
   be
possible.
I would be interested to know what the songs are, to which Berthod set
his spiritual text. There is no way of knowing from Berthod's
collection, and although the library mentions composers like Bacilly
and Le Camus, they don't seem to say who wrote which songs, and what
the original words were.
Best wishes,
Stewart.
-Original Message- From: Rainer
Sent: Saturday, February 1, 2020 4:09 PM
To: Lute net
Subject: [LUTE] Ballard 1612
[6]https://mazarinum.bibliotheque-mazarine.fr/ark:/61562/mz3446
Click under "Tà �là �charger"
Rainer
To get on or off this list see list information at
    [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
[8]i...@lutecorner.ch
--
   References
1.
   [9]http://societe-champenoise-de-musicologie.org/Cahiers_remois_de_musi
   cologie.html
    2. [10]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/meetings

   Andreas Schlegel
   Eckstr. 6
   CH-5737 Menziken
   Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
   Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
   [11]i...@lutecorner.ch

   --

References

   1. https://accordsnouveaux.ch/en/the-von-erlach-lute-book
   2. mailto:lu...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://societe-champenoise-de-musicologie.org/Cahiers_remois_de_musi
   4. https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/meetings
   5. mailto:lu...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   6. https://mazarinum.bibliotheque-mazarine.fr/ark:/61562/

[LUTE] Re: Ballard 1612

[Andreas Schlegel]

   There's an important article on that topic by François-Pierre Goy:

   LA PRATIQUE DE LA PARODIE SPIRITUELLE DANS UN MONASTÈRE TROYEN AU XVIIe
   SIÈCLE les � Cantiques spirituels faits à la Visitassion Ste Marie �
   (F-T Ms. 1686)
   The book can be ordered here:
   [1]http://societe-champenoise-de-musicologie.org/Cahiers_remois_de_musi
   cologie.html
   Scroll to the third book.
   There are links to the two annexes which include some Airs with
   parodies by Berthod.
   On next Saturday I will speak at the Lute Society Meeting and play from
   the von Erlach lute book. The topic of the „travel" of melodies is one
   important part of my mini-recital at 11:30.
   [2]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/meetings
   I hope to see you there!
   Andreas

   Am 02.02.2020 um 00:37 schrieb Stewart McCoy
   :

   Thanks, Rainer. Much appreciated.
   There are some other interesting books to be found at the same library.
   If
   you click on "Rechercher" and do a search for "luth", you'll find more
   tablature with a copy of Piccinini.  There is also an interesting
   looking collection of songs by Chancy. Most intriguing are three song
   collections
   (in one volume) by François Berthod, who flourished in the 1650s. He
   took
   songs by well-known French composers, and replaced their words with a
   spiritual text. There is a brief Wiki article about him. On the title
   page of his books there is a left-handed lute-player with a six-string
   (single courses) lute. All the songs are for two voices - treble and
   bass - with both parts texted. There are no figures for the bass part,
   yet a chordal accompaniment on a lute or theorbo should nevertheless be
   possible.
   I would be interested to know what the songs are, to which Berthod set
   his spiritual text. There is no way of knowing from Berthod's
   collection, and although the library mentions composers like Bacilly
   and Le Camus, they don't seem to say who wrote which songs, and what
   the original words were.
   Best wishes,
   Stewart.
   -Original Message- From: Rainer
   Sent: Saturday, February 1, 2020 4:09 PM
   To: Lute net
   Subject: [LUTE] Ballard 1612
   https://mazarinum.bibliotheque-mazarine.fr/ark:/61562/mz3446
   Click under "Télécharger"
   Rainer
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   Andreas Schlegel
   Eckstr. 6
   CH-5737 Menziken
   Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
   Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
   i...@lutecorner.ch

   --

References

   1. 
http://societe-champenoise-de-musicologie.org/Cahiers_remois_de_musicologie.html
   2. https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/meetings

[LUTE] PL-Kj 40267

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear collected wisdom

Has somebody a digitalisation of this tablature for Hamburger Cithrinchen and 
is willing to share it?
I’m looking for it because of some concordances.

Thanks a lot!

Andreas




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website

[Andreas Schlegel]

   Dear Mimmo

   Could you please make the picture available? The link doesn't show the
   lady with the mandora.

   Thanks!

   Andreas

   Am 22.11.2019 um 11:02 schrieb Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche
   <[1]mperu...@aquilacorde.com>:

   Hello,
   This si really a good idea.
   I have this contribute that, in my opinion, the best painting
   concerning Gallichon/Mandora (I am doing article in matter of a
   possible historical string setup)
   [2]https://www.hampel-auctions.com/online-catalog-fullscreen.html?a=120
   =-1=683
   Mimmo Peruffo
   -Messaggio originale-
   Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
Per conto di Braig, Eugene
   Inviato: giovedì 21 novembre 2019 19:32
   A: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website
   I look forward to watching the site develop.  Thank you, Rainer.
   Eugene
   -Original Message-
   From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
On Behalf Of Seicento/Rainer
   Luckhardt
   Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:26 PM
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Subject: [LUTE] Mandora/Gallichon website
   Dear Lute-List,
   I'm going to set up a website about the 18th century mandora/gallichon.
   This might be a place for general information about the instrument(s),
   its history, where it has been played, composers, and, and, and.but
   also information about where to find a player, a lutemaker, and last
   but not least a download page for lots of pieces.
   Those who already know a bit about 18th century mandora music: don't be
   afraid! I'm not going to present hundreds of bad and boaring menuets
   there. Amongst all the manuscripts which I have (quite a lot, in copy
   of
   course) I've found many interesting pieces, technically not to much
   demanding, often with nice melodies, and sometimes music of high
   quality in baroque or gallant style.
   During the last years I've made a collection of my favorite pieces and
   suites, and I made readable copies of it with Fronimo. Probably other
   mandora players did the same. So why not putting together the whole
   mandora wisdom and repertoire and collect it in the web, downloadable
   for free and open to all.
   That's quite a lot of work of which I've already done a bit. Therefore
   I would like to ask the mandora players of amongst us (I know there are
   some)  to participate to this idea, and to contribute whatever
   might be of interest.
   You can have a look to this very basic website with just an index-page,
   a completely empty "about Mandora"-page and the impressum (which is
   obligatory in Germany).
   The web adress is:   www.gallichon.de
   But some buttons are already there, and so at least you can see which
   themes I have integrated until now. But that's just work in progress,
   and to be filled with real information soon. If you have any suggestion
   about what else should be there, if you have any material to share,
   don't hesitate to contact me. The website shall be in english and
   german. As you certainly have seen I'm not a native speaker. Any help
   in transforming my poor english into something closer to good english
   is welcome.
   Let's try it.
   Rainer
   --
   __
   SEICENTO-Notenversand
   Rainer Luckhardt
   Holbeinstrasse 12
   D-79312 Emmendingen
   Tel. ++49/(0)7641 - 932803
   Internet: www.seicentomusic.de
   VAT/UID-Nr. DE 142 047 317
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   Andreas Schlegel
   Eckstr. 6
   CH-5737 Menziken
   Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
   Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
   [3]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

   --

References

   1. mailto:mperu...@aquilacorde.com
   2. 
https://www.hampel-auctions.com/online-catalog-fullscreen.html?a=120=-1=683
   3. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

[LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website

[Andreas Schlegel]

   Dear Rainer

   Have a look here:

   [1]https://accordsnouveaux.ch/de/instrumente/mandora-galizona-colascion
   e

   in German.

   The translation will come…

   Enjoy!

   Andreas

   Am 21.11.2019 um 21:23 schrieb David Van Edwards
   <[2]da...@vanedwards.co.uk>:

   Dear Rainer,
   What a very good initiative! I think there's lots of information out
   there in various places and people's heads and it would be very good to
   have such a place to pull a lot of it together.
   To start with there are 18 images from the Lute Society database
   [3]https://lute-images.myjetbrains.com/youtrack/issues/LI?q=type-of-lut
   e:%20mandora
   But I believe I probably have more, and I have a lot of images of
   surviving instruments which I've also been collecting, so contact me
   off list if you'd like any of these.
   Best wishes and good luck,
   David

 Dear Lute-List,
 I'm going to set up a website about the 18th century
 mandora/gallichon. This might be a place for general information
 about the instrument(s), its history, where it has been played,
 composers, and, and, and.but also information about where to
 find a player, a lutemaker, and last but not least a download page
 for lots of pieces.
 Those who already know a bit about 18th century mandora music: don't
 be afraid! I'm not going to present hundreds of bad and boaring
 menuets there. Amongst all the manuscripts which I have (quite a
 lot, in copy of course) I've found many interesting pieces,
 technically not to much demanding, often with nice melodies, and
 sometimes music of high quality in baroque or gallant style.
 During the last years I've made a collection of my favorite pieces
 and suites, and I made readable copies of it with Fronimo. Probably
 other mandora players did the same. So why not putting together the
 whole mandora wisdom and repertoire and collect it in the web,
 downloadable for free and open to all.
 That's quite a lot of work of which I've already done a bit.
 Therefore I would like to ask the mandora players of amongst us (I
 know there are some)  to participate to this idea, and to
 contribute whatever might be of interest.
 You can have a look to this very basic website with just an
 index-page, a completely empty "about Mandora"-page and the
 impressum (which is obligatory in Germany).
 The web adress is:   [4]www.gallichon.de
 But some buttons are already there, and so at least you can see
 which themes I have integrated until now. But that's just work in
 progress, and to be filled with real information soon. If you have
 any suggestion about what else should be there, if you have any
 material to share, don't hesitate to contact me. The website shall
 be in english and german. As you certainly have seen I'm not a
 native speaker. Any help in transforming my poor english into
 something closer to good english is welcome.
 Let's try it.
 Rainer
 --
 __
 SEICENTO-Notenversand
 Rainer Luckhardt
 Holbeinstrasse 12
 D-79312 Emmendingen
 Tel. ++49/(0)7641 - 932803
 Internet: [5]www.seicentomusic.de
 VAT/UID-Nr. DE 142 047 317
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --
   The Smokehouse,
   6 Whitwell Road,
   Norwich,  NR1 4HB  England.
   Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
   Website: [7]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

   Andreas Schlegel
   Eckstr. 6
   CH-5737 Menziken
   Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
   Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
   [8]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

   --

References

   1. https://accordsnouveaux.ch/de/instrumente/mandora-galizona-colascione
   2. mailto:da...@vanedwards.co.uk
   3. https://lute-images.myjetbrains.com/youtrack/issues/LI?q=type-of-lute: 
mandora
   4. http://www.gallichon.de/
   5. http://www.seicentomusic.de/
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/
   8. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

[LUTE] Re: Attribution in Fabricius Lute Book

[Andreas Schlegel]

   Dear Sarge

   First of all: Once more many thanks for all your efforts for the lute
   community!

   To Fabricius:

   There is a splendid facsimile made by Ralf Jarchow with a very
   detailled and very carefully made concordance table and introduction.
   Highly recommended!

   [1]http://www.jarchow.com/katalog.pdf

   All the best

   Andreas

   Am 15.11.2019 um 17:45 schrieb Frank A. Gerbode, M.D.
   <[2]sa...@gerbode.net>:

   I am slogging my way through the Fabricius Lute Book.  Most of the
   pieces (largely dances and intabulated lieder) are unattributed.
   I am looking for composers of these pieces.  Fabricius attributes some
   of them to himself, and a handful to others.  Is it thought that many
   or most of the unattributed pieces are also by Fabricius? Or is there
   an inventory somewhere that can give me guidance?
   Many thanks.
   --Sarge
   --
   Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([3]sa...@gerbode.net)
   11132 Dell Ave
   Forestville, CA 95436-9491
   Home phone:  707-820-1759
   Website:  [4]http://www.gerbode.net
   "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   Andreas Schlegel
   Eckstr. 6
   CH-5737 Menziken
   Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
   Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
   [6]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

   --

References

   1. http://www.jarchow.com/katalog.pdf
   2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
   3. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
   4. http://www.gerbode.net/
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Andreas Schlegel]

I know: the citation is German. But any translation makes an interpretation and 
therefore it’s the best to give citations in the original language:

Praetorius 1619, Syntagma II, 156–157:
NB. Hierbey habe ich auch des Calvisii Meynung de Temperatura Instrumentorum 
uffzusetzen nicht unterlassen wollen.
Das ist gewiß (sagt er) wenn die Consonantiae sollen recht klingen, so 
müssen sie rein in ihren proportionibus stehen, und weder uberheufft noch 
geringer werden; Und dasselbige befindet sich also in voce humana, auch in 
Posaunen und in andern [Blasinstrumenten], welchen man mit menschlichem Athem 
etwas zugeben oder nemen kan. Denn vox humana [hier nicht das gleichnamige 
Orgelregister, sondern die menschliche Singstimme] lencket sich natürlich zu 
der rechten Proportion der Intervallorum, und legets ihnen zu, wo etwas 
mangeln, oder nimpt weg, wo was uberley seyn solte.
Auff den Instrumenten [besaitetete Tasteninstrumente] aber und Orgeln hat es 
eine andere Meynung, do seynd der Clavier gar zu wenig, darumb muß man allda 
etlichen Consonantiis etwas nemen, auff daß solches alles nicht auf einem 
Clave allein mangle. 

So we have at least two levels:
- pure intonation for all instruments which can be played in this manner (and 
independently from the tuning system of the keyboard instruments!)
- keyboard instruments (which have not enough keys to play all the pure 
intervals)

- the fretted instruments are not explicitly mentioned

Perhaps it’s just a modern idea that all instrument have to follow the tuning 
of the keyboard instruments. Perhaps it was just the contrary: All musicians, 
who were able, played / sung in pure tuning and the damned keyboard and fretted 
instruments have to play in the best possible compromise. 

The Renaissance of pure tuning, pythagorean and meantone tunings and all the 
temperaments was started by keyboard players. In consequence the keyboard is 
now the dominator of the scene or the rider, but as Praetorius clearly points 
out, in his time the keyboard was the horse. We changed the parts.

A very interesting book is:
Ortgies, Ibo: Die Praxis der Orgelstimmung in Norddeutschland im 17. und 18. 
Jahrhundert und ihr Verhältnis zur zeitgenössischen Musikpraxis, Diss. 
Göteborg: Göteborgs universitet, Dept. of Musicology and Film Studies, 2004, 
revidiert 2007. Link: 
https://sites.google.com/site/iboortgies/Ibo_Ortgies_PhDDiss_complete_IO01.pdf?attredirects=0
 


All the best

Andreas

> Am 22.07.2019 um 21:41 schrieb Matthew Daillie :
> 
> Citterns are keyboard instruments and metal strings introduce alternative 
> temperament issues? Gosh, I am learning a lot of alternative facts at the 
> moment.
> Best,
> Matthew
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jul 22, 2019, at 21:34, Ron Andrico  wrote:
>> 
>>  David, citterns are strung with wire, which introduces alternative
>>  temperament issues and places them more in the class of a keyboard
>>  instrument.
>> 
>>  RA
>>__
>> 
>>  From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
>>  of David van Ooijen 
>>  Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM
>>  Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
>>  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
>> 
>> Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
>> approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
>> interpretation or an awkward stretch.
>>> 
>>>  on.   There survive some historical discussions of lute
>>   fretting but the
>>>  language is unclear or otherwise flawed.   A sideways
>>   application of
>>>  modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute
>>  and
>>   fretted
>>>  viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.
>> --
>> ***
>> David van Ooijen
>> [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>> [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
>> ***
>> --
>>  References
>> 1. [1]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>> 2. [2]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
>>  To get on or off this list see list information at
>>  [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>>  Virus-free. [4]www.avast.com
>> 
>>  --
>> 
>> References
>> 
>>  Visible links:
>>  1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>>  2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
>>  3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>  4. 
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link
>> 
>>  Hidden links:
>>  6. 
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon
>>  7. 
>> file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L16092-349TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
> 
> 



--

[LUTE] Re: Leonardo da Vinci and the lute

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear Franco, Ron and others

Thanks a lot for all your contribution. 
It seems that I was right in my opinion that Leonardo was probably a skilled 
musician, but there is no evidence for him as a lute player. So in the 
interview Prof. Roeck (or the newspaper) confused lute and lyre.

All the best

Andreas

> Am 28.04.2019 um 16:40 schrieb info.francopa...@gmail.com:
> 
>   Did you read Davide's page and all the bibliography there?
> 
>   Greetings
>   Franco
>   Inviato da iPhone
>   Il giorno 28 apr 2019, alle ore 15:46, Ron Andrico
>   <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> ha scritto:
> 
>   The sad fact is that there is only anecdotal evidence to support
>   Leonardo's musical ability, and we must always approach anecdotal
>   evidence with caution.  People have always embellished the truth.  We
>   have to be content with the understanding that any educated person in
>   Leonardo's age would have been trained in the science of music.
> 
>   RA
> __
> 
>   From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
>   behalf of [4]info.francopa...@gmail.com <[5]info.francopa...@gmail.com>
>   Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:57 AM
>   To: Rainer
>   Cc: Andreas Schlegel; lute list
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo da Vinci and the lute
> 
>  Thanks to Davide Daolmi:
>  [1][6]https://www.examenapium.it/meri/leonardo/
>  Inviato da iPhone
>  Il giorno 28 apr 2019, alle ore 13:15, Rainer
>  <[2][7]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de> ha scritto:
> 
>   [3][8]https://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=vinci=lute%40cs.dartmouth
>   .ed
>  u
>  On 28.04.2019 09:42, Andreas Schlegel wrote:
>Dear collected wisdom
>In an interview on Leonardo's 500-year memorial Prof. Bernd Roeck
>(author of a biography) talked about the musical skills and says
>that Leonardo was known as a good singer and lute player. Has
>somebody informations and sources on that topic?
>Thanks a lot!
>Andreas
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>[4][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>  --
>   References
>  1. [10]https://www.examenapium.it/meri/leonardo/
>  2. [11]mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
>  3.
>   [12]https://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=vinci=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>  4. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
>   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   4. mailto:info.francopa...@gmail.com
>   5. mailto:info.francopa...@gmail.com
>   6. https://www.examenapium.it/meri/leonardo/
>   7. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
>   8. https://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=vinci=l...@cs.dartmouth.ed
>   9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>  10. https://www.examenapium.it/meri/leonardo/
>  11. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
>  12. https://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=vinci=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>  13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[LUTE] Leonardo da Vinci and the lute

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear collected wisdom

In an interview on Leonardo's 500-year memorial Prof. Bernd Roeck (author of a 
biography) talked about the musical skills and says that Leonardo was known as 
a good singer and lute player. Has somebody informations and sources on that 
topic?

Thanks a lot!

Andreas



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: GB Lbl ms 16889

[Andreas Schlegel]

.@musickshandmade.com
>   3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   4. https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=GB-LbmBotnia=e
>   5. mailto:[2]edvihuel...@gmail.com
>   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   7. https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=GB-LbmBotnia=eng;
>   8. mailto:edvihuel...@gmail.com
>   9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>  10. https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=GB-LbmBotnia=e
>  11. mailto:2]edvihuel...@gmail.com
>  12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>  13. 
> https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=GB-LbmBotnia=eng=all
>  14. mailto:edvihuel...@gmail.com
>  15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[LUTE] Re: Froeberger on Baroque lute

[Andreas Schlegel]

And there is an edition by François-Pierre Goy in my edition:
Johann Jacob FROBERGER (1616-1667) 

SUITE Bb-Major for 11-course Lute

anonymus arrangement after FbWV 605 and FbWV 612 (Berlin, Staatsbibliothek 
Preussischer Kulturbesitz, Mus. Ms. 40601) 

edited by François-Pierre GOY 

order no. LC 0304
CHF 12.00Verkauf 
<https://lutecorner.ch/verkauf/verkauf.htm#Best.-Nr.%20LC%200304>
Although Johann Jacob Froberger made no lute music it's detectable in his works 
for keyboard that was influenced by the french lute music. Music for keyboard 
was seldom transcribed for the lute in the 17th century. The present Suite was 
edited by an anonymus lutenist and came to us in an also anonymus manuscript 
which came into being shortly after Froberger's death. It's up to now the only 
known example of a work by Froberger in a contemporary version for the lute. 

The suite for lute combines the entire Partita V for Cembalo with it's 
movements Allemande, Courante and Sarabande from the Libro secondo (1649, FbWV 
605) with the Gigue from the Partita VI taken from the Libro quarto (1656, FbWV 
612) as final movement. Both of the keyboard works are in C-Major but the 
editor transposed them to Bb-Major and choosed the Mercure tuning which better 
fits this key. This tuning varies the usual d-minor tuning by tuning the 6th 
course to Bb instead of A.



> Am 14.04.2019 um 07:21 schrieb b...@symbol4.de:
> 
>   Hi, there is an edition of a suite in g by Anthony Bailey. Tree-Edition
>   Kind regards
>   Bernd
> 
>   --
>   Gesendet über myMail für Android
> 
>   Sonntag, 14 April 2019, 01:55vorm. +02:00 von Jay F.
>   [1]existentialismy...@hotmail.com:
> 
>   Hello All,
>   Â Â Â I was wondering if someone could point me to some good
>   transcriptions
>   Â Â Â of Froberger's keyboard music for 13c lute?
>   Â Â Â Best wishes,
>   Â Â Â Jay
>   Â Â Â --
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> References
> 
>   1. mailto:existentialismy...@hotmail.com
>   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[LUTE] Re: Rust - transcriptions of 21 and 53, I and II

[Andreas Schlegel]

The Krebs concerti will be edited by Stephan Olbertz. We worked on them some 
months ago and I think the edition will appear soon.
It’s a little bit tricky because of all the variants.

Andreas

> Am 17.03.2019 um 17:35 schrieb Alain Veylit :
> 
>   Thanks for the suggestions, Martyn.
> 
>   Actually, I was wondering about the Johann Ludwig Krebs concerto in C
>   for B. lute and strings. The score is widely available on the Net -
>   here on scribd:
>   [1]https://www.scribd.com/document/371003432/Krebs-Johann-Ludwig-C-Dur-
>   Krebs-WV-202 - or straight from the Berlin Staatsbibliothek:
>   [2]http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB00021159
> 
>   Anybody knows anything about this concerto? It seems to be the one and
>   only lute piece in Krebs' production, and it is rather ambitious from
>   an orchestral point of view: lute, 2 violins, viola and cello. I did
>   not find a trace of a recording of it - Krebs was held in high regard
>   by J.S. Bach and it s always odd to find the odd lute piece in a
>   composer's output... The lute part is in tablature, so it should be
>   less of a challenge than Rust from a transcription point of view. I
>   found a modern edition of it, which has all the parts ... except for
>   the lute!
> 
>   Happy Sunday,
> 
>   Alain
> 
>   On 3/17/19 2:53 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
> 
>   You may consider transcribing some of Haydn's wonderful keyboard works
>   or violin and keyboard or piano trios - careful selection will throw up
>   works  similarly accommoating to the the late lute as the Rust pieces..
>   And, of course, some of the Baryton trios can work well with lute in
>   place of the Baryton...
>   Might also use the late eighteenth century fashionable
>   gallichon/mandora too - instead of the 13 course Dm lute...
>   MH
> 
>   On Saturday, 16 March 2019, 21:16:39 GMT, Alain Veylit
>   [3] wrote:
>   Those of you interested in late 18th century Baroque lute +
>   violin/viola
>   may be interested in transcriptions of Rust sonatas I made that are now
>   available for viewing:
>   I. Sonata in C Major for lute and viola (Rust 21). I worked with
>   Jean-Daniel Forget to see if we could get a playable tablature version
>   of the lute part. The original MS is in grand-staff notation. I am
>   interested in performers' feedback, particularly because of arpeggios
>   on
>   diapasons. Jean-Daniel thinks it is very feasible, I am still a bit
>   uneasy with those. I don't think there is another tablature
>   transcription of that sonata  but perhaps there is ...
>   The link to that is:
>   [4]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/5
>   . You will need a login to view that project. It is free and it can put
>   you on the world map of lutenists, which is a fun little app.
>   II. and III. I provided transcriptions, also in collaboration with
>   Jean-Daniel, of the sonatas I (G) and II (Dm) for lute and violin based
>   on the violin parts from the Berlin Staatsbibliothek and the tablature
>   part from the Krakow 40150 MS.
>   The link to those is:
>   [5]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/7.
>   Finally, I am currently still working on a transcription of the H-dur
>   sonata -- that is a headache... The lute part is also in grand-staff
>   notation and not at all obvious due to various problems. It is one of
>   the "revised and improved" Rust sonatas... I found only one edition of
>   that H-Dur sonata ... adapted for modern guitar. Sad, no?
>   There is a comments field where you can leave your impressions,
>   corrections, etc. if you chose to do so.
>   Alain
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. 
> https://www.scribd.com/document/371003432/Krebs-Johann-Ludwig-C-Dur-Krebs-WV-202
>   2. http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB000211590000
>   3. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
>   4. http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/5
>   5. http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/7
>   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[LUTE] Additions / corrections to www.tiorba.eu

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear all

Who knows the impressum of that site? I like to give some additions / 
corrections - but there’s no address.

Thanks for an advice!

Andreas





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[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in France - books and articles

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear Yuval

An important ressource is here:
http://www.tiorba.eu/timeline.html
The menue at the right side allows to filter after countries etc.

Enjoy!

Andreas

> Am 08.03.2019 um 04:23 schrieb yuval.dvo...@posteo.de:
> 
> Hello everybody,
> 
> what would you say ist the most important literature concerning the history 
> ofthe theorbo (as an instrument, not concerning music for the theorbo) in 
> France?
> On my list are until now:
> 
> Michael Prynne: „James Talbot’s Manuscript, IV: Plucked Strings – the 
> Lute Family“, The Galpin Society Journal 14 (1961), S. 52–68;
> Robert Spencer: “Chitarrone, Theorbo and Archlute“, in: Early Music Vol. 
> 4, No. 4, 1976, S. 408–422;
> Ingo Negwer: „Laute und Theorbe in Marin Mersennes Harmonie universelle“, 
> Frankfurt am Main (Deutsche Lautengesellschaft) 2000;
> Lynda Sayce „The development of Italianate continuo lutes“, Open 
> University 2001.
> 
> Any other books and articles which shouldn't be missing here? I don't need a 
> complete list, only the most important works about this topic.
> 
> Thank you very much! :-)
> Yuval
> 
> P.S.: I wonder if nothing in French appeared, but I was unable to find 
> something
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

[Andreas Schlegel]

re effort. That should mean his left-hand little finger
>   can
>>>> bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger but
>   ...
>>>> For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little
>   finger
>>>> is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just lightly
>   brushing on
>>>> it, and it should remain extended.
>>>> 
>>>> Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional basses would
>   alter
>>>> the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued for a
>   mixed
>>>> technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for whatever
>   else
>>>> (chords). I think it is logical that increasing dedication of the
>   thumb
>>>> to the bass strings does account for the shift in right-hand
>   position,
>>>> and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution in music
>>>> history...
>>>> 
>>>> On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O'Dette couldn't bend
>   that finger down by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the
>   fault was in my head, not in the stars.
>>>>> D ick Brook
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit
>   al...@musickshandmade.com wrote:
>>>>>> Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American
>   series from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and the
>   only sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend their little
>   finger?
>>>>>> Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix
>   playing with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think?
>>>>>> On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the
>   rules of guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has
>   probably always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by choice
>   or force.
>>>>>>> And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was
>   an alien :)
>>>>>>> Rainer
>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>>>>> [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>   ---
>   This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>   [2]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> References
> 
>   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   2. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[LUTE] Re: F.W.Rust

[Andreas Schlegel]

Thanks, Thomas, for this advice. But I didn’t made a transcription from the 
C-major sonata for lute and viola. I made the reconstruction of the three 
sonatas which are transmitted in tablature - but be careful: D-B Rust 53 was 
changed probably by Wilhelm Rust. Read below:

B) On Friedrich Wilhelm Rust

The lute music of Friedrich Wilhelm Rust is preserved in two tablature sources: 
D-B Rust 53 and PL-Kj 40150 (formerly Berlin, intermediately at the storage 
site Fürstenstein). Rust 53 is characterized by a completely un-lutenistic 
style, and there are even unplayable passages in the music. A comparison with 
the lute parts of the Sonatas I and II, which are contained in PL-Kj 40150, was 
only possible after the manuscripts stored in Fürstenstein in WW2 had become 
available again in c. 1987. It then showed that the Sonatas in Rust 53 had 
undergone far-reaching arrangements introducing additional voices into the 
music which were written directly into the tablature. In 1988 Andreas Schlegel 
visited the Deutsche Staatsbibliothek in what was then still East Berlin (GDR) 
and examined the source in in detail, uncovering the original layer of the 
tablature. This allowed to see that the versions in PL-Kj 40150 were almost 
identical with the primary layers in Rust 53. The third Sonata!
  which only survives in the arrangement in Rust 53 could now be reconstructed 
in its original form by applying the criteria arrived at while comparing the 
other compositions with the versions in PL-Kj 40150.

The arrangements of the music in Rust 53 are probably connected to the “Rust 
affair”: Wilhelm Rust, Cantor at St Thomas in Leipzig and grandson of Friedrich 
Wilhelm Rust, wanted to let his grandfather appear as an predecessor of 
Beethoven. To that end he published editions of his grandfather’s compositions, 
which he had arranged and equipped with additional parts in the style of 
romantic music. As Rust was also the author of an article on lute tablature in 
an encyclopaedia, he might have felt the need to cover up the the differences 
between the original tablature and his edition of his grandfather’s sonatas. 
For a new edition and a recording of the music (see below), the original form 
of the violin part also had to be reconstructed, as Rust had arranged it too. 
The new edition consists therefore of music in a reconstructed original version 
and can thus not be understoot as a critical edition. Earlier editions based on 
Rust 53 (for example that of Neemann) should not !
 be used anymore!

Zur Neuausgabe der Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine/Flöte von Friedrich 
Wilhelm Rust, in: Gitarre & Laute 6 (1989), pp. 41–47 (On the new edition of 
Friedrich Wilhelm Rust’s Sonatas for Lute and Violin/Flute obbligato)

Friedrich Wilhelm Rust: Drei Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine/Flöte, 
Menziken (The Lute Corner) 1998 (Three Sonatas for Lute and Violin/Flute 
obbligato)

CD Friedrich Wilhelm Rust (1739–1769) & Bernhard Joachim Hagen (ca. 1720–1787): 
Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine (Sonatas for Lute and Violin obbligato), 
together with Myrtha Indermaur (Violin), Menziken (The Lute Corner) 2006

The C-major sonata for lute & viola is indeed a riddle. Like Alain I’m 
convinced that it’s not written for a lute in d-minor-tuning because of some 
places which are not playable. But I worked on this sonata 30 years ago…


All the best

Andreas

> Am 13.02.2019 um 19:52 schrieb Thomas Schall :
> 
> There is already a very well done adaption for the lute available (by Andi 
> Schlegel)
> https://lutecorner.ch/
> 
> Bst wishes
> Thomas
> 
> Am 13.02.2019 um 18:43 schrieb Alain Veylit:
>> eing one octave down from what one might expect. Without that transposition, 
>> none of the lute's diapasons would be used... Transposing means some tricky 
>> arpeggios for the thumb 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Andreas Schlegel
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CH-5737 Menziken
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Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

[LUTE] Re: Rust, Friedrich Wilhelm

[Andreas Schlegel]

I made in 1988/89 a reconstruction of the three sonatas for violin (flute) and 
lute (still available). Below you will find the text from my edition, published 
in 1998. The sonata for viola is not edited (re-intabulated) for lute.

Friedrich Wilhelm Rust
(1739 -1796)
Three Sonatas for Lute and obligato Violin/Flute
reconstructed by Andreas Schlegel

1. The riddle and its solution

The present edition is unusual in some respects. The reason for this is that 
there is no known source of these three sonatas which stems from the time of 
the composer Friedrich Wilhelm Rust and which transmits the music in an 
„incorrupt“ state. The trail leading to this edition proceeds via 
„fraud“ and reconstruction. But, one thing at a time...

The Sources and their History

Two sources of these sonatas survive:
1. Manuscript „Rust 53“ (Staatsbibliothek Preussischer Kulturbesitz, 
Berlin). This contains the lute part, notated in tablature, and the violin 
part, written in standard notation, of all three sonatas.
2. „Ms. 40150“ (formerly in the Preussische Staatsbibliothek; now held by 
the Jagiellonska Library, Krakow). This contains, among other things, merely 
the lute part, notated in tablature, of the first two sonatas.
„Rust 53“ probably remained in the possession of Rust’s family after the 
composer’s death, and thus was handed down to his grandson Wilhelm Rust, 
cantor of the Thomas Church in Leipzig and music researcher. This Wilhelm Rust 
was probably the author of the article „Tabulatur“ in the „Musicalisches 
Konversations-Lexikon“ by Mendel and Reissmann published in 1878. The first 
17 measures of Friedrich Wilhelm Rust’s second sonata appear there as an 
example of lute tablature. In 1892, the three sonatas were published in Wilhelm 
Rust’s arrangement for piano and violin by Schweers & Harke of Bremen.
The strange thing about the 1892 edition and about the present condition of the 
source „Rust 53“ is that the lute part is virtually unplayable; long 
passages are completely unidiomatic. Stranger yet: the 1892 tablature part is 
no longer the same one used as an illustration in Mendel and Reissmann’s 
lexicon. Thus, „Rust 53“ was changed extensively after 1878. Voices were 
added, the texture was made more dense and, to some extent, strongly 
romanticized. Strangest of all, these radical changes were penned into the 
original tablature-manuscript - with all the effort involved, it being a matter 
of hundreds of careful erasures and insertions!
Two persons come into question as arranger: either the then-owner of the source 
Wilhelm Rust, who thus would have carried out the changes sometime between 1878 
and his death in May 1892, or an unknown person who carried them out sometime 
after their appearance in Rust’s edition. According to the latter hypothesis, 
it would seem that the intervention in „Rust 53“ was intended to mask the 
difference between the original manuscript and Wilhelm Rust’s piano edition. 
One can imagine these arrangements in the context of the „Rust case“: 
Wilhelm Rust wanted to use the „revised“ editions of his grandfather’s 
works to present him as Beethoven’s predecessor. This fraud was not 
discovered until 1912/13, when Ernst Neufeldt noticed it. Although it seems 
likely that Wilhelm Rust was the author of this arrangement and thus the 
„counterfeiter“ of the source „Rust 53“, it is not possible at the 
moment to claim this for sure.
However, there does exist the previously-mentioned second source. „Ms. 
40150“. As the present author pointed out in his article „Zur Neuausgabe 
der Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine/Flöte von Friedrich Wilhelm 
Rust“ („Concerning the re-edition of the sonatas for lute and obligato 
violin/flute by Friedrich Wilhelm Rust“) in Gitarre und Laute 6/1989, pp. 
41-47, the manuscript „Rust 53“, at least as far as the lute part of 
Sonatas 1 and 2 is concerned, is probably a copy of the manuscript „Ms. 
40150“. According to a note by Wilhelm Rust, „Ms. 40150“ was unknown 
until January 1892 at least. It was not until 1897 that the music researcher 
and lute connoisseur Wilhelm Tappert bought this manuscript in a  antiquarian 
book store. The source went from Tappert to the former Royal Library in Berlin. 
In 1944 it was transferred for safekeeping to Fürstenstein; thenceforth it was 
considered, in the West at least, as missing. Not until a few years ago, in 19!
 88, did the present editor succeed in finding the manuscript in the Biblioteka 
Jagiellonska in Krakow. This  in turn made it possible to compare the original 
(„Ms. 40150“) and the counterfeit („Rust 53“). This comparison and its 
consequences will now be exemplified on the basis of the lute part of the 
second movement of the second sonata:

Let us begin with the more or less usual editorial interventions: the provision 
of dynamic markings and articulation signs, realiza

[LUTE] Re: Different arciliuti

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear Martyn

In my opinion, your argument takes the wrong way:
Our modern gut strings are more and more reconstructions of the old ones - but 
we don’t have the experience of the old string makers. I remember that Mimmo 
said some years ago that it’s impossible to make strings from whole guts. And 
now, he and at least another string maker (Davide Longhi of cordedrago) are 
able to do that. The modern evolution of reconstructing gut strings of the 
16th, 17th and 18th century makes really good progress - but it seems that the 
quality is still not the same.
In consequence our modern gut strings can’t be the judge on old instruments.

But what we have:
- string lengths of original instruments
- pitch (more or less accurate, I agree)

>From these starting points, we have to calculate and to try.
If we take the Roman a1 with 382 Hz, the real breaking point with 263 Hz*m is 
at 77.4 cm, the practical breaking point (one halftone below) is at 73.1 cm.
A while ago, Mimmo surprised also this list with the news that he was able to 
make chanterelles with more than 270 Hz*m breaking point.
It seems that the old Roman strings were of very high quality. So it seems not 
impossible to have an archlute with a chanterelle in g1 (340 Hz) with a string 
length of 73 cm.
I agree that such high quality strings were not available for all times at all 
places in Europe. I’m speaking from Roman archlutes in the time of Corelli. 
When the pitch was higher or the string quality poor, instruments have to be 
shortened - see the beautiful, but shortened Harz in Edinburgh with 6x2 = 67.3 
/ 8x1 = 143.8 - side by side with the not shortened Rotondi with 6x2 = 73 cm / 
8x1 = 162 cm. The not shortened Harz in Geneva has 1x1 + 5x2 = 73.0 / 8x1 = 155 
cm.

Of course, with „normal“ gut strings we have a problem nowadays. The string 
makers have to solve this problem, because instruments existed.

My hypothesis is: Arciliuti were built with the maximal possible string length 
because the chanterelle which is working close to the breaking point sounds 
very bright and therefore this bright sound cuts the sound of the orchestra - 
in combination with the thumb out technique and little finger behind the bridge.
And tiorbe made a compromise between handling and the biggest possible string 
length - normally at least 87 cm.

All the best,

Andreas


> Am 22.10.2018 um 17:19 schrieb Martyn Hodgson 
> :
> 
>   Dear Andreas,
>   I'd be interested to know the name of your supplier of extra strong gut
>   trebles since at A415 the longest string length I, and others, have
>   found is reasonable (ie without almost instantaneous string breakgage)
>   for a string at g'  is only around 64cm. A length of 67cm would need to
>   be at a lower nominal pitch (say, A392).
>   Of course the larger lutes (could have been at a lower nominal tuning
>   (for example at f' as suggested by Melli) - a transposing archlute
>   playing at A415 as discussed some years ago.  This also enables one to
>   make sense of Talbot's advocacy of the small theorbo over the archlute
>   c.1700: - he tells us that the archlute (string length measured at
>   68cm) could not reach consort pitch as the small theorbo could.
>   Finally, a g' (arch)lute at A415 of 67cm indicates a mean g' lute able
>   to reach A440 at around 64cm. Again, surely experience tells us this is
>   unrealistic with gut? - though, of course, possible if nylon is
>   employed.
>   MH
> ______
> 
>   From: Andreas Schlegel 
>   To: Jörg Hilbert 
>   Cc: lute list 
>   Sent: Monday, 22 October 2018, 13:34
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Different arciliuti
>> Am 22.10.2018 um 13:28 schrieb Jörg Hilbert
>   <[1]hilbert.jo...@t-online.de>:
>> 
>> Dear all,
>> 
>> I am just re-reading Nigel Norths book about continuo playing and
>   there are some questions growing. Here are some of them, concerning the
>   old arciliuti. Maybe someone can help me.
>> 
>> Was the 7th course on the fingerboard common or is it more a modern
>   way to string it?
>   How many original arciliuti do you know?
>   How many of them have the 7th short?
>   How many have more pegs than bridge holes?
>> 
>> There are many different types and sizes (some may have been smaller
>   theorbos in fact â or something in between). And of course we've got
>   the liuti attiorbati. Is there a kind of »standard « in string length
>   and tuning to be recognized?
>   tiorba 87 cm and bigger
>   arciliuti romani have 71-73 cm (for pitches like a1=392 Hz) see the
>   paper of Ivo Magherini & Linda Sayce, LâArciliuto a Roma nel XVII e
>   XVIII secolo, in: Leutaro in Roma, Rome 2007, pp. 26-37.
>   so the normal string length for 415 Hz shoud be around 67 cm - in any
>   cas

[LUTE] Re: Different arciliuti

[Andreas Schlegel]

> Am 22.10.2018 um 13:28 schrieb Jörg Hilbert :
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> I am just re-reading Nigel Norths book about continuo playing and there are 
> some questions growing. Here are some of them, concerning the old arciliuti. 
> Maybe someone can help me.
> 
> Was the 7th course on the fingerboard common or is it more a modern way to 
> string it?
How many original arciliuti do you know? 
How many of them have the 7th short? 
How many have more pegs than bridge holes?

> 
> There are many different types and sizes (some may have been smaller theorbos 
> in fact – or something in between). And of course we’ve got the liuti 
> attiorbati. Is there a kind of »standard« in string length and tuning to be 
> recognized?
tiorba 87 cm and bigger
arciliuti romani have 71-73 cm (for pitches like a1=392 Hz) see the paper of 
Ivo Magherini & Linda Sayce, L‘Arciliuto a Roma nel XVII e
XVIII secolo, in: Leutaro in Roma, Rome 2007, pp. 26-37.
so the normal string length for 415 Hz shoud be around 67 cm - in any case very 
close to the breaking point of the string.

Andreas

> 
> Thanks
> Jörg
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Andreas Schlegel
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Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

[LUTE] Re: Pacoloni

[Andreas Schlegel]

There’s a brilliant dissertation made by Christophe Dupraz:
Musiques pour luths (1507-1601). Catalogue raisonné et édition moderne du 
répetoire pour plusieurs luths imprimé à la Renaissance. Analyse musicale 
des mises en tablature de modèles polyphoniques. Volume I: Étude, Vol. II: 
Transcriptions, Tours 2001

I made a PDF of it, but you have to ask Christophe Dupraz for his permission to 
get a PDF. 
His mail (it was at least once his mail): christophe.dup...@ens.fr

Andreas

> Am 22.05.2018 um 16:47 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier <jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>:
> 
> Dear collective wisdom,
> 
> Would anyone on this list know of a dissertation or Ph. D. about the works of 
> Giovanni Pacoloni, particularly
> his pieces for 3 lutes ?
> 
> Thank you in advance for any help you can give me !
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Jean-Marie Poirier
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Andreas Schlegel
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--

[LUTE] Re: LUTE TUNING AND TEMPERAMENT IN THE SIXTEENTH AND SEVENTEENTH,CENTURIES

[Andreas Schlegel]

There’s a very big diffrence 
between the very long sounding metal strings and the instrumente with gut 
strings, which can be heard in orchestras only with the attack and very rarely 
with the sound.AndreasAm 13.05.2018 um 13:00 schrieb jslute mailto:jsl...@verizon.net; class="">jsl...@verizon.net: Dear 
All, What should we make of the 
indisputable evidence of unequal temperament on 
fixed-fret citterns? There are many surviving examples, 
and virtually a!
 ll are in unequal temperament. Modern reproductions with 
equal temperament only play in tune in G major (I once owned one). 
And citterns were frequently played in comforts with 
lutes. Jim 
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone  Original message  
From: Martyn Hodgson mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu; 
class="">hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: 
5/13/18 5:51 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Andreas Schlegel 
mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch; 
class="">lute.cor...@sunrise.ch, Lutelist Net 
mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; 
class="">lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] 
Re: LUTE TUNING AND TEMPERAMENT IN THE SIXTEENTH AND SEVENTEENTH,CENTURIES --=_Part_1069186_1226149732.1526205101799 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
Dear Andreas, Yes - Otterstedt's very fine 
review of Dolata's book in Early Music (December 2017) 
does indeed present a very welcome demolition of the 
current modern fashion for promoting meantone tunings on the lute. 
It was also brave since, as she pointed out, 'Not 
moving with the tide can wreck a career, for the 
pressure to conform in 'early music' is great' . The knowledge that some unequal tunings can result in 
sweeter thirds has made many make a wholly illogical 
jump to then asserting that lutes must therefore have 
been frette!
 d in a way to allow this - without any proper 
understanding of the actual historical evidence and of the very 
real practical problems associated with this idea. 
I think the matter is important, so I hope you won't mind me 
copying this reply to the wider list. 
regards, Martyn 
From: Andreas Schlegel mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch; class="">lute.cor...@sunrise.ch To: Martyn Hodgson mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; 
class="">hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: 
Saturday, 12 May 2018, 9:26 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 
LUTE TUNING AND TEMPERAMENT IN THE SIXTEENTH AND 
SEVENTEENTH,CENTURIES Dear Martyn, Thanks for your clear words!Here's the review of Annette!
  Otterstedt (Lyra viol and Viola da Gamba expert, 
formerely Institut für Musikforschung, Berlin) on 
Dolata's book.Some very important thoughts, I 
think! All the best, 
Andreas PS: By the way: Accords nouveaux 
and not equal temperament is really difficult… But 
if nobody is playing this repertory which was the 
standard repertory for solo literature for at least one 
generation, it's clear that this argument can't be 
seen from our turbo-meantone-fret-movers. And: With 
the standard double frets, it's much more 
difficult…In short: Let beside all the topics which can be 
dangerous for your hypothesis - and your hypothesis is much more 
true! Am 12.05.2018 um 1!
 0:12 schrieb Martyn Hodgson mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu; 
class="">hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu: 
Thank you for this Ranier. 
I think we need to be very careful before accepting 
this (and similar plugs for non-equal 
temperament on plucked fretted instruments) as a 
wholly authoritative work on lute temperaments in the 
16th  17th Cs and which should, 
according to the author, be generally adopted in 
modern times. The 
dismissal of equal temperament, despite its clear advocacy in 
many early sources (see 
Lindley et al), seems largely to be founded on a 
prior prejudicial!
  belief by the author that some form of unequal !
 p;(probably meantone) temperament was the norm on lutes. Of 
course, a meantone tuning, if practicable, 
does indeed produce some more harmonious 
intervals (thirds in particular) than equal temperament 
and for keyboard instruments, 
where each semitone can be individually 
tempered, such a temperament was and is common. But on 
fretted instruments, where a fret has to 
serve for both chromatic and diatonic 
intervals, this can not always be the case. In advocating some general unequal 
temperament on the lute, the paper has 
recourse to the chimera of 'tastini' (and/or constant fret 
adjust!
 ments) which not only fail to be seen in the overwhelming 
majority of early representations, but were actively 
disparaged at the 
time (eg Galilei). The problems of tempering any 
fretted instrument are 
also evidenced very graphically in General Thompson's 
1829 proposal for 
an enharmonic guitar (also one by Lacote) requiring 
around 300 different fret positions on the 
fingerboard - which then had to be reset 
on change of key. Similarly the idea that logarithms were absolutely necessary

[LUTE] LUTE TUNING Sorry - my reply without strange format instructions

[Andreas Schlegel]

There’s a very big diffrence between the very long sounding metal strings and 
the instrumente with gut strings, which can be heard in orchestras only with 
the attack and very rarely with the sound.

Andreas






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[LUTE] Re: Ballard 1611/1612

[Andreas Schlegel]

Laurent Guillo, Pierre I Ballard et Robert III Ballard. Imprimeurs du roy pour 
la musique (1599-1673), Mardaga 2003, lists the book as 1612-B. In the notes he 
says:
La datation de l’édition en 1612 vient d’une part de la présence du 
privilège d’octobre 1611, d’autre part de l’épître à la Reine Marie 
de Medicis, à qui Robert II Ballards est attaché à partir de 1612.

Best,
Andreas

> Am 27.04.2018 um 23:57 schrieb Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>:
> 
> Here is what Pascale Boquet and François-Pierre Goy had to say in the 
> introduction to the Fuzeau edition of the facsimile:
> 
> On Oct 16th 1611, Pierre Ballard obtained a ten-year 'privilège' to print 
> his brother's works. In the absence of a title page, date of impression or 
> inscription on the 'syndicat des librairies's register', it is generally 
> accepted that the volume reproduced here appeared in that same year; however, 
> printing delays must be taken into account which, according to other 
> examples, could vary between a few weeks and several months. In addition, one 
> could deduce from the dedication that Ballard wrote it when already employed 
> by Marie de Médecis. These two elements could postpone the date of 
> publication to early 1612.
> 
> Best,
> Matthew
> 
> 
> On 27/04/2018 22:26, Rainer wrote:
>> Dear lute netters,
>> 
>> Ballard's lute book with the year 1611 on the title page is believed to have 
>> been published in 1612.
>> 
>> I can't remember who noticed this based on which evidence published where.
>> 
>> Who does remember?
>> 
>> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Andreas Schlegel
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Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[LUTE] US-Cn VAULT Case MS 7Q 5

[Andreas Schlegel]

Ok, thanks Wayne for your tip!

Here again for the lute list:

Good news from Chicago, The Newberry Library:

The very important manuscript VAULT Case MS 7Q 5 is online:
http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/nby_music/id/4729
 


It’s the earliest known manuscript with "accords nouveaux“ and vieil ton 
(c. 1624).

For more informations see:
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/index.html 

http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Thesis/Thesis.html 

http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/DownloadD/files/Abhandlung_Goy.pdf 
 (in 
French)

Enjoy!

Andreas



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] US-Cn VAULT Case MS 7Q 5

[Andreas Schlegel]

Good news from Chicago, The Newberry Library:

The very important manuscript VAULT Case MS 7Q 5 is online:
http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/nby_music/id/4729
 


It’s the earliest known manuscript with "accords nouveaux“ and vieil ton 
(c. 1624).

For more informations see:
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/index.html 

http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Thesis/Thesis.html 

http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/DownloadD/files/Abhandlung_Goy.pdf 
 (in 
French)

Enjoy!

Andreas



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[LUTE] Re: Latest book in viel ton outside Italy

[Andreas Schlegel]

Esajas Reusner the older:
Musicalischer Lust-Garten / das ist: Herren D. Martini Lutheri, Wie auch 
anderer Gottseliger (der Reinen Augspurgischen Confession zugethaner) Männer / 
Geistliche Kirchen- und Hauß-Lieder: Auff Lauten Tabulatur gesetzt, Breslau 
(Georg Baumann) 1645
for 11-course lute in vieil ton.

The 11-course lute in vieil tone seems to be very common in this time. How it 
looks like is a very god questio. See my article 
The Lute in the Dutch Golden Age What we know and what we play today, in: The 
Lute in the Netherlands in the Seventeenth Century: Pro- ceedings of the 
International Lute Symposium Utrecht, 30 August 2013, ed. by Jan W.J. Burgers, 
Tim Crawford and Matthew Spring, Cambridge Scholars Publishing 2016, ISBN 
978-1-4438-9075-5, p. 73-101.

Andreas

 


> Am 09.04.2018 um 16:44 schrieb Rainer <rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>:
> 
> Dear lute netters,
> 
> I have often wondered what the latest book in vieil ton published outside 
> Italy is.
> 
> As a starting point I offer:
> 
> 
> Louys de Moy, LE Petit Boucquet,  …, 1631
> 
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
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Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Andreas Schlegel]

There’s a different view here:
A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, Meantone 
temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in: Early 
Music, cax101, https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101 

Andreas

> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes <kidneykut...@gmail.com>:
> 
> For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer (solo and 
> continuo), I highly recommend “Meantone Temperaments on Lutes and Viols” 
> by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History covered in part 1, 
> theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by ear and using a tuning 
> device).
> 
> goo.gl/9Aewv2 <http://goo.gl/9Aewv2>
> 
> 
>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
>> 
>> I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages said the 
>> same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??
>> 
>> Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning 1/4 comma 
>> meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on lutes, a can of 
>> worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I use both equal and 1/5 
>> comma mean-tone on my lutes).
>> 
>> Best,
>> Matthew
>> 
>> 
>> On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>>>   Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of a true
>>>   meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this matter of
>>>   non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
>>>   number of times before - just search the archives.  For example this
>>>   some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
>>>     * [1]Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> --

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[LUTE] Re: While speaking about Hans

[Andreas Schlegel]

See here for the tuning:
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Autoren/Schlegel/Judentanz/Judentanz.html 
<http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Autoren/Schlegel/Judentanz/Judentanz.html>
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/DownloadD/files/Judentanz_News.pdf 
<http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/DownloadD/files/Judentanz_News.pdf>

Andreas

> Am 17.02.2018 um 15:40 schrieb G. C. <kalei...@gmail.com>:
> 
>   On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 3:36 PM, Ralf Mattes <[1]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
>   wrote:
> 
> Which old thread? Subject? Message ID?
> 
>   Dear Ralf,
>   just write "juden tantz" in the search field in the mail archive. :)
>   G.
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Andreas Schlegel
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--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] 14- and 15-course Baroque lutes

[Andreas Schlegel]

Sorry for the last mail with so many stupid signs… Here again:

There is a 15-course lute by Jonas Elg. See the paper by Kenneth Sparr:

Jonas Elg: An Eighteenth-Century Lute and Violin Maker in Stockholm, Sweden, 
and his 15-course Baroque Lute. Galpin Society Journal LXV March 2012, pp. 
23-59, 168-172. 
Also presented as a paper at The American Musical Instrument Society, 40th 
Annual Meeting, The Musical Instrument Museum, Phoenix, Arizona May 18-22, 2011.
 
All the best,

Andreas







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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Johann Christian Hoffmann, 14 course swan-neck lute in Leipzing

[Andreas Schlegel]

There is a 15-course lute by 
Jonas Elg. See the paper by Kenneth Sparr:Jonas Elg: An Eighteenth-Century Lute and Violin Maker in 
Stockholm, Sweden, and his 15-course Baroque Lute. Galpin Society Journal LXV 
March 2012, pp. 23-59, 168-172. Also presented as a paper at The American 
Musical Instrument Society, 40thAnnual Meeting, The 
Musical Instrument Museum, Phoenix, Arizona May 18-22, 2011.All the best,AndreasAm 13.02.2018 um 16:51 
schrieb spiffys84121 mailto:spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu; 
class="">spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu: I 
really love 14 course baroque lutes. That low G is heavenly. Ive got three liuto attiorbatos that are -15- double courses. The 
15th course can be C,D or E, depending on the key 
you're playin. At present my very 
favorite of all lutes are liuto attiorbatos with 
octaves on the basses. And my least favorite lute? An attiorbato 
with single basses. Seriously-- why, b!
 ut why?? Sterling Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy 
smartphone  Original message 
 From: David Van Edwards mailto:da...@vanedwards.co.uk; class="">da...@vanedwards.co.uk Date: 2/13/18 7:52 AM (GMT-07:00) 
To: baroque-lute mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; 
class="">baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: 
Luca Manassero mailto:l...@manassero.net; 
class="">l...@manassero.net Subject: 
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Johann Christian Hoffmann, 14 course 
swan-neck lute in Leipzing I forgot that this list doesn't show images 
so here's a link instead to the monster. Beware! http://www.vanedwards!
 .co.uk/Hoffmann.htm" class="">http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/Hoffmann.htm David At 14:21 + 13/2/18, 
David Van Edwards wrote:--_-693590822==_ma===Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"Nothing 
like this monster though. Body width 335 Depth 233DavidAt 12:21 + 13/2/18, Martyn Hodgson 
wrote: Two 
other well known lutes by Johann Christian in the Brussels 
collection are fairly deep too, having a depth greater than 
half the 
width (roughly 0.57): Leipzig 
1716 eleven !
 course (M 1559): body length 495; width 323; depth 185 
Leipzig 1730 thirteen course with bass rider (M 3188): 
496; 322; 181 
regards Martyn 
__ From: Luca Manassero mailto:l...@manassero.net; class="">l...@manassero.net To: baroque-lute mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; 
class="">baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
Sent: Monday, 12 February 2018, 18:08 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Johann Christian Hoffman n, 14 
course swan-neck 
lute in Leipzing 
Dear common wisdom, 
a couple of years ago I stumbled upon the Leipzig 
Museum website, 
planned to visit their Hoffman exhibition (but 
had to pass on it, 
unfortunately) - then one day realized that the 
pictured Hoffmann swan-neck lute t!
 hey recently acquired (2012, says the YouTube video) 
mounts 14 courses: 8 fretted and 6 at the second 
pegbox (2x1, 6x2, 
6x2). 
See 
[1][1]http://mfm.uni-leipzig.de/dt/Forschung/hoffmannn.php:; 
class="">http://mfm.uni-leipzig.de/dt/Forschung/hoffmannn.php: it's 
the first 
instrument pictured under Johann Christian Hoffmann' section on the 
page. It's a really strange 
instrument with an incredibly deep body 
(it must 
be uneasy to hold, or at least it looks so). I'm sure the book about Hoffmann they 
sell 
([2][2]http://www.hofmeister-musikverlag.com/martin-und-johann-christia; 
class="">http://www.hofmeister-musikverlag.com/martin-und-johann-christia 
n-h offmann.html) 
has all the measures about that instrument, but that book 
is really kind of expensive. The Museum's website 
doesn't talk about 
string length and date on this lute (I do read 
German and couldn't 
find the infos 
anywhere on the website) The YouTube 
video on the same page shows a German lutenist (Sven 
Schwannberger, I think) playing a swan-neck lute, 
which is of course not 
the original Hoffmann lute, as it shows 13 courses, as usual. 
Anybody out there who has more details about 
it? Thanks a lot, 
Luca 
-- References 1. [3]http://mfm.uni-leipzig.de/dt/Forschung/hoffmannn.php; 
class="">http://mfm.uni-leipzig.de/dt/Forschung/hoffmannn.php 
2. [4]http://www.hofmeister-musikverlag.com/martin-und-johann-christian-ho; 
class="">ht!
 tp://www.hofmeister-musikverlag.com/martin-und-johann-christian-ho 
ffmann.html To get on or off 
this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html; 
class="">http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [6]http://www.avast.com; class="">www.avast.com --References Visible links 
1. http://mfm.uni-leipzig.de/dt/Forschung/hoffmannn.php:; 
class="">http://mfm.uni-leipzig.de/dt/Forschung/hoffmannn.php: 
2. http://www.hofmeister-musikverlag.com/martin-und-johann-christian-h; 
class="">http://www.hofmeister-musikverlag.c!
 om/martin-und-johann-christian-h 3. http://mfm.uni-leipzig.de/dt/Forschung/hoffmannn.php; 

[LUTE] Re: [Citara tiorbata]

[Andreas Schlegel]

Have a look here:
http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/printed/gv1602.html


Andreas

> Am 01.02.2018 um 16:14 schrieb mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu:
> 
> I have one other reference to the use of the term citara for cittern 
> (rather than guitar) from Gary Boye who said
> 
> "Citara tiorbata" could possibly refer to a cittern. 
> 
> There is one early cittern book which uses that term, without the 
> tiorbata qualification: 
> 
> Vincenti, Giacomo -  Secondo libro d'intavolatura di citara, nel quale 
> si contengono varie, et diverse sorti di Balli. Raccolta da diversi 
> autori et nuovamente stampati (Venice, [Italy]: Giacomo Vincenti, 
> 1602).
> 
> Gary might know more about it.
> 
> Monica
> 
> 
> Original Message
> From: hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Date: 01/02/2018 11:34 
> To: "Lutelist Net"<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "al...@musickshandmade.com"
> <al...@musickshandmade.com>
> Subj: [LUTE] Re: [Citara tiorbata]
> 
> Dear Alain,
>   Perhaps Virgo is actually (Paolo) Virchi (1551 - 1610)?
>   His father(?) was Giraolamo Virchi (or de Virchi) a maker of 
> citterns
>   Martyn
> 
> ---
>   ---
>   From: Alain Veylit <[1]al...@musickshandmade.com>
>   Date: 28 January 2018 at 19:01
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: [Citara tiorbata]
>   To: Lute List <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>   Hi all,
>   I revised a transcription I made some time ago of P.P. Melli's 
> Balletto
>   del Ardito Gracioso (1616),  a suite for 9 instruments, including 3
>   (arch)lutes and a citara tiorbata "cordatura del Signor Virgo). I am
>   still struggling with the tuning of that instrument which was
>   apparently more a cittern than a guitar. The Signor Virgo is nowhere 
> to
>   be found on the Net, otherwise I would ask him about his tuning I
>   guess, but given his elusiveness I am wondering if one of you may be
>   able to provide more information than I was able to gather already.
>   See: [3]http://fandango.musickshandmad e.
> com/collections/preview/185.
>   The instrumentation of that suite is definitely exotic : why would 
> the
>   double-strung harp (alpa doppia) play the same notes as the viola 
> (da
>   gamba presumably)?
>   Happy Sunday,
>   Alain
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
> 
> [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~w bc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   Virus-free. [5]www.avast.com
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   Visible links
>   1. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
>   2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   3. http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/collections/preview/185
>   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   5. 
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
> 
> 
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> 
>   8. 
> https://mail.yahoo.com/?soc_src=mail_trk=ma#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
> 
> 
> 
> 

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Tielke Baroque Lute

[Andreas Schlegel]

Did you consulted the new book by Friedemann Hellwig?
http://tielke-hamburg.de/htm_english/einfuehrung.htm 
<http://tielke-hamburg.de/htm_english/einfuehrung.htm>

Andreas

> Am 04.01.2018 um 05:35 schrieb sterling price <spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu 
> <mailto:spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu>>:
> 
> Hi all,
> I'm trying to find the whereabouts of the Joachim Tielke 1678 baroque lute 
> made in Hamburg. I'm planning to make a copy of the pegbox. I've got the 
> drawing, but I'd love to see pictures of this instrument. An Internet search 
> yielded nuttin.
> Danke,
> Sterling
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 
> <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch <mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch>




--

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 - Puget

[Andreas Schlegel]

as been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>>  [2]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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>>> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Puget+Louis+XIV+musicians+louvre=isch=iu=1=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM%3A%2C7PrvozbPq_afYM%2C_=__vAu1C9rg1UtUjvZXIgdvAg3TXLY==X=0ahUKEwiT86PI_IbYAhWI7BQKHd8KA2QQ9QEIMDAA#imgrc=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM:
>>>  2. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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>>> 
>> 
>> Andreas Schlegel
>> Eckstr. 6
>> CH-5737 Menziken
>> Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
>> Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
> 
> 

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 - Puget

[Andreas Schlegel]

Here an important text on the picture by Puget:

Marie-Christine Gloton: Pierre et François Puget. Peintre baroques, 
Aix-en-Provence (Edisud) 1985, p. 125-127.

Lucienne Collard a démontré de façon couvaincante qu'il ne peut s'agir de 
musiciens de la Cour, Lulli ou Quinault, comme la tradition le prétendait, ou 
même Lorenziani, comme l’a proposé André Tessier. Lulli er Quinault sont 
morts en 1687 et Lorenziani, depuis la mort de la reine, se trouvait dans une 
semi-retraite. Il semble plutôt s’agir de Provençaux et les circonstances 
du tableau, la type des personnages, les gestes confirment cette hypothèse. 
Des amis de Lierre et François? On connaît par les témoignanges de son 
petit-fils l’acitvité de musicien amateur de Pierre Puget et l’on ne 
s’étonnera pas de trouver chez François une précision rigoureuse dans la 
représentation des instruments, détaillee par A.-P. Mirimonde. On voudrait 
aussi identifier les personnages. Nous le tenterons en partant des approches de 
Mms Colliard et Cheilan-Cambolin.
Parmi les trois chanteurs qui signalent leurs coiffures fantaisistes ne peut-on 
reconnaître, comme le suggère Jeanne Cheilan-Cambolin, Jean-Baptiste Renaud 
ou Jean-Joseph Razibus, vedettes de la troupe de l’opéra de Marseille? Au 
premier plan, trois musiciens : le maître à danser tenant la pochette propre 
à sa profession pourrait être Nicolas Besson (mort après 1700). Il fut aussi 
chef de la grande bande de violons de Marseille. Il faut de toute façon 
exclure l’hypothèse de Luciene Colliard d’une représentation du Roi 
Soleil, impensable dans un contexte aussi peu protocollaire. Le musicien qui 
accorde son basse de violon, trop jeune pour être François, alors âgé de 
trente-sept ans, pourrait être Joseph Campra, frère cadet d’André Campra, 
qui fit carrière à l’opéra de Paris, de 1600 à 1727, comme basse de 
violon précisement. Reste le joueur de luth : plutôt que Piere Puget, comme 
on l’a supposé mais dont il n’a pas de tout les traits, ne!
  serait-ce pas Pierre Gautier (1642-1696), le créateur de l’opéra de 
Marseille? …

>From "Pierre Gaultier de Marseille“ we have 5 pieces in anonyme arrangements 
>for lute. Here’s the only digital soource of his works I know:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181 
<http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181>

Andreas

> Am 13.12.2017 um 13:22 schrieb Martyn Hodgson 
> <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
> 
>   Martin,
>   The first (larger area) one is reasonably clear in this link
>   rgds
>   Martyn
>   [1]Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search
> 
>[google.png]
> 
>  Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search
> __
> 
>   From: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
>   To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>   Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2017, 10:08
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
>   The problem with having unisons on 7, 8, etc is how far to go before
>   the
>   transition to octaves, and how noticeable that transition is going to
>   be.  Good luck, Magnus!
>   BTW, does anyone have a really good reproduction of the Puget they
>   could
>   share?  I only have a very indistinct one.
>   Martin
>   ---
>   This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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> References
> 
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>   1. 
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Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Anthony Bailes paper in "The Lute" - and my holiday work

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear lutefriends,

I saw in Anthony Bailes' wonderful article "The Bowe that is too much bent, 
breaketh"; The pitch of Miss Burwell's lute, reconsidered, in: The Lute LIV 
(2014), p. 1-35, some references to the website "accordsnouveaux.ch" which was 
for years available only in German. 
This was a sign to work today on Francois-Pierre Goy's and my homepage and I'm 
happy to announce that a good part of the website is now available in English, 
too. 
During the last months, Joachim Lüdtke worked on translations and I had now the 
opportunity to put the texts online - and to make all the links... But at some 
pages, the graphical result is not convincig... and I can't say where the 
mistake comes in.

The missed sites will come soon, I hope.

There are some special topics:

Horaz: 
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Authors/AS/Horaz/Horaz.html

Tunings / accords:
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Authors/AS/Judentanz/Judentanz.html
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Thesis/Tunings%20Survey/TuningsS.html
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Thesis/TuningsC/TuningsC.html

La Rhétorique des Dieux:
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/RdD%20Intro/Bremen/Bremen.html
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Authors/AS/AS.html
scroll down to "Publications"

Bullen Reymes (F-P. Goy):
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Thesis/Writers/Writers.html

Swiss sources:
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/SourcesCH/SourcesCH.html

Benzenauer
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Authors/AS/AS.html
scroll down to "Publications"

The "Rodauer Lautenbuch" (D-Fschneider Ms 45)
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/RodauLB/RodauLB.html

Guitar music:
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/GuitarLit/GuitarLit.html

Enjoy!

And if you see errors, please give an advice. Thanks!


Andreas 


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[LUTE] Re: 13 corse baroque lute looking for a responsible owner :)

[Andreas Schlegel]

Thanks for the descripton, Ron! 

I add one thing - and I let the original message from Ron in my mail because 
it's a good overview on the thinking on bridges:

Am 08.10.2017 um 10:28 schrieb Ron Fletcher :

> My apologies for coming a bit late coming into this discussion.  I can see
> where some are asking for clarification on measuring bridge dimensions.  I
> haven't noticed anything from David van Edwards but perhaps he has other
> ideas. But these ideas may help.  As I say, these are only ideas.  I would
> stand correction if there are already proper definitions in place.
> 
> Bridge Length
> After all, this is a long piece of wood and should refer to the length of
> the whole 'footprint' of the bridge.  From the playing position, you are
> looking from one end of the bridge. You measure distance (how far)in length.
> 
> Bridge width then refers to the width of the bridge footprint, front to
> back. (across its length)
> 
> String-hole Span
> Would refer to the distance between the first and 13th string.  It would be
> more accurate than measuring from the string 'outer extremities' because of
> varying string thicknesses that may be used

I think it's necessary to give the measurement from the center of the hole to 
the next center and - separately - the diameter of the hole. Why?

If we take the Kremsmünster lutes which were untouched since centuries, we see 
that the diameters of the bridge holes are much smaller than our modern opinion 
(11th courses of the 5 Kremsmünster instruments with original bridges and a 
11th course: from 1.45 up to 1.7 mm). The hypothesis of loaded strings (thanks 
to Mimmo) and / or from 1711 overwound strings for the lowest bass course(s) 
(first appearance on Kupezkys portrait of Hoyer, datable in the years 1711, 
perhaps 1712; first text in the Frauenzimmer-Lexicon, Leipzig 1715) are the 
most plausible answer to that fact - until today.

But holes were also enlarged, when thicker strings were mounted (f.inst. the 
Martino Harz archlute in Geneva, which had once 19th century overwound strings 
on  silk and the holes are clearly enlarged - very blowsy). So the diameter for 
the hole of the 11th course can change from 2.5 to 1.45 mm (Kremsmünster, Magno 
dieffopruchar 1604, changed by Fux in 1685).

And - as for any parts of an old lute - we have to declare if the part seems to 
be 
surely original
perhaps original (reasons for the doubts) 
changed during the "lute life-time" by … [maker] in … [year] (only until around 
1800)
certainly made and added after 1800 [maker, date]

It's sometimes very hard to distinct original bridges from well made modern 
replacements (f.ex. from the restorer of ex-Wildhagen-instruments or from 
Jordan).

So the questions about the used strings are still unsolved - and string spacing 
and diameter / material of the played strings and tension have of course a 
certain connection to the string spacing ;-)

Andreas

> 
> String Gallery length
> Seems an appropriate name for the top of the bridge along which the strings
> are arranged.
> 
> String gallery width
> Again, it is longer than wide.  So would refer to the distance from front to
> back, the section of bridge around which the strings are tied.
> 
> String-spacing
> The distance between strings of a course (or of a single strung instrument)
> 
> Course-spacing
> The distance between courses (pairs of strings)
> 
> Kind regards
> Ron (UK)
> 





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[LUTE] Re: Restringing for transitional tunings

[Andreas Schlegel]

uneven Ground, with hard, and soft Places 
> mix'd together.
> Sure, he must need needs Run unequally, in Those places, or slack his Pace, 
> or else stumble and fall. Even so is it with such an unequal Strung 
> Instrument.
> Then again, it must needs be perceivable by the Auditor; for whensoever such 
> unequal performance is made, the Life and Spirit of the Musick is lost.'
> 
> Best,
> Matthew
> 
> 
> On Aug 30, 2017, at 9:49, Andreas Schlegel <lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> wrote:
> 
>>> historic recommendation to tune the top-course (in gut) as high as it will 
>>> go without breaking?
>> When was it said? In the period of accords nouveaux and later?
>> What's with the D-major tuning? Tune (or change) 16 strings to hold 3 
>> strings (with the chanterelle at its breaking point)?
>> 
>> Best, 
>> Andreas
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

[LUTE] Re: Restringing for transitional tunings

[Andreas Schlegel]

Am 30.08.2017 um 09:38 schrieb Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>:

> I am surprised, to say the least, by these answers. Are we talking about 
> retuning to just about manage to read through some pieces to get any idea of 
> what they sound like or for serious playing?
> Aren't we totally forgetting the historic recommendation to tune the 
> top-course (in gut) as high as it will go without breaking?
When was it said? In the period of accords nouveaux and later?
What's with the D-major tuning? Tune (or change) 16 strings to hold 3 strings 
(with the chanterelle at its breaking point)?

Best, 
Andreas

> Best,
> Matthew
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 30, 2017, at 7:58, Antony M Eastwell <eastwe...@me.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Sorry-incomplete message sent by mistake!
>> As I was saying….
>> 
>> I’ve often wondered, and experimented, with retuning a VT 10 course lute 
>> into transitional tunings, and I feel that, as Andreas says, it can be made 
>> to work, and is not as illogical as it sounds. You need to bear in mind the 
>> very sharp upward “tilt” in tension typically found on the highest strings 
>> of instruments in VT. My 10 course (67cms, tuned at A=392, all gut strings) 
>> has course 1  (.42 gut, tension 4.18 kg), and course 2 (.50 gut, tension 
>> 3.32 kg). Courses 3 and 4 are just over 3 kg. Retuning the top two courses 
>> to E and C for Sharp tuning, gives tensions of 2.95 and 2.64 kg. This is not 
>> that far from the tension of courses 3 and 4, and is playable, though not 
>> perhaps ideal. Of course, things are not so good in Flat tuning, but are 
>> still usable IMHO.
>> It’s worth remembering that for one reason or another (nylon??), we often 
>> tune lutes to pitches that are quite high for their string length. We think 
>> of modern G as suitable for the top string of a 60cm lute, but tenor viols 
>> (same basic tuning) are usually in the mid 50’s (and are very often tuned at 
>> 415 as well). My Lacote guitar with a top string at nominal E (let’s not get 
>> onto arguments about C19th pitch!) is only 62.5 cms. I feel that the very 
>> sharp upward scaling of the highest strings on lutes acts as compensation 
>> for the fact that the high pitch of the top strings leaves them without the 
>> mass to move the soundboard properly. Once you lower the pitch, this “mass 
>> compensation” is no longer so necessary, and you get something not so far 
>> from equal tension. I find this feels very relaxing to play on, and though 
>> it take a while to get used to it, it saves a lot of money on gut top 
>> strings!
>> Having said all this, when I made a recording of music from the Wemyss book 
>> some years back, I used two instruments-same string length, but the 6th 
>> course of the lute for the transitional tuning pieces was a tone higher, 
>> thus raising the pitch of the top strings by a tone!
>> 
>> It is worth remembering that the 10 course lute in VT has, I think, the 
>> largest open string range ever used on a single pegbox lute-2 octaves and a 
>> fifth (of a major sixth for some pieces that require a nominal Bb on course 
>> 10). That’s asking a lot of unwound bass strings-if I had been a player, 
>> lute maker, or string maker in the early C17th, I think I would have heaved 
>> a sigh of relief when I discovered the new tunings with their considerably 
>> reduced open string range!
>> 
>> In a number of Ms sources-the Board book, for example, you find a group of 
>> VT pieces in among a predominantly transitional repertoire, and I wonder how 
>> many of the original owners really changed instrument for these pieces.
>> I think we need to experiment before dismissing the idea. Incidentally, it 
>> works much better with gut!
>> 
>> Best wishes
>> 
>> Martin
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On 29 Aug 2017, at 16:03, Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Well Andreas, I really don't know how you manage to tune your
>>> chanterelle down from g' to eb', for example and your second course
>>> down from d' to c' and still be able to play correctly. I certainly
>>> can't. Gut bass strings are certainly more tolerant of changes of pitch
>>> and can work at different tensions but treble strings are quite another
>>> matter.
>>> Best,
>>> Matthew
>>> On 29/08/2017 16:23, Andreas Schlegel wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm playing since years and years some transitional tunings on my 10c lute, 
>>> norm
>>> ally tuned in VT, without changing any strings - and other accords nouveaux 
>>&g

[LUTE] Re: Restringing for transitional tunings

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear Matthew, 

What was possible for the old lutenists should be also possible for us today.
I send you a link to a chart with the most important tunings from Vieil ton to 
the Nouvel accord ordinaire (NAO; d-minor).
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/DownloadD/files/From_VT_to_the_NAO.pdf
You see that with my system the 1st string will be lowered 2 or 3 semitones, 
the 2nd course 2 ST for VT to edeff and fedff. Or I have to tune up the 3rd +1 
ST and the 4th +2 ST from the NAO.
Take lutebooks of the early period of accords nouveaux and have a look on the 
tunings used in this book (or at leat in the early period of such a source).
ffeff, fdeff, fedff and edeff were used in the same period.
Of course it's possible that they tuned one lute in an accord nouveau with a 
thicker top string and an other lute in vieil ton. But who had more than one 
lute? That's a small cercle.
But there are two important points:
- The playing technique was thumb out with the little finger just at the bridge.
- The groundbreaking exercise is the tirer et rabattre in this position - in 
other words not with the right side of index, but with the top.
These two points lead to a completely different feeling - also for string 
tension.

Then have a look to a book which was written between 1640 and 1642: CH-Zz Q 
907. It's a very important source because it's the first manuscript which 
demands the 11-course lute in combination with the NAO.
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/DownloadD/files/CH-Zz_Q_907_Edition.pdf
The used tunings (only the first 6 courses):
ddeff f.ex. f1 d1 b g d A
edeff f.ex. f#1 d1 b g d A
dedff f.ex. f1 d1 bb g d A
dfedf f.ex. f1 d1 a f d A (NAO)
efdef f.ex. f#1 d1 a f# d A (D-major tuning)

The changing courses:
1st course: f#1 / f1 = +/-1 ST
3rd course: b bb a = +/- 2 ST
4th course: g f# f = +/- 2 ST

So at least +/- 2 ST is normal!

I'm just preparing a suite by Jacobi which was composed around 1720, I think. 
The tuning: dfehc* [ceghk] = f1 d1 a f Bb Ab / G F Eb D C
I have to tune down he 5th course -4 ST, the 6th -1 ST. Of course, it's a 
special feeling to play the very low 5th course - but it's possible.

My point: The tuning +/- 2 ST is absolutely normal and was made on lute types 
in most of the time between 1623 until around 1800 (mandora). So I as a modern 
player have to find solutions to handle this. Restringing was normally not the 
way - exceptions are possible, of course.
For me it seems to exist a direct connection between the variablilty in the 
accords and the right hand technique.

All the best,

Andreas

Am 29.08.2017 um 17:03 schrieb Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>:

>   Well Andreas, I really don't know how you manage to tune your
>   chanterelle down from g' to eb', for example and your second course
>   down from d' to c' and still be able to play correctly. I certainly
>   can't. Gut bass strings are certainly more tolerant of changes of pitch
>   and can work at different tensions but treble strings are quite another
>   matter.
>   Best,
>   Matthew
>   On 29/08/2017 16:23, Andreas Schlegel wrote:
> 
> I'm playing since years and years some transitional tunings on my 10c lute, 
> norm
> ally tuned in VT, without changing any strings - and other accords nouveaux 
> lute
> types which are normally tuned in the nouvel accord ordinaire (d-minor) 
> withopu
> t changing any string. And it works.
> Of course the feeling changes - but I can handle it.
> If I make a concert program, I have normally one instrument in the dedff and 
> the
> other in edeff and fedff tuning. For the tunings see:
> [1]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Abhandlung/Accords/Accords_Darstellung/Accor
> ds_Darstellung.html
> or
> [2]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/styled-5/styled-9/index.html
> (the beginning of the translated homepage... the remaining pages and a better 
> fo
> rmatted design will follow in the next months...)
> 
> It's simply not thinkable that the lutenists of the transitional period 
> restring
> ed their lutes for every tuning! So we have to find solutions which are near 
> by
> the old practice.
> 
> By the way: With gut strings it's more comfortable to change tunings than 
> with m
> odern string materials.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Andreas
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. 
> http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Abhandlung/Accords/Accords_Darstellung/Accords_Darstellung.html
>   2. http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/styled-5/styled-9/index.html
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

[LUTE] Re: Restringing for transitional tunings

[Andreas Schlegel]

I'm playing since years and years some transitional tunings on my 10c lute, 
normally tuned in VT, without changing any strings - and other accords nouveaux 
lute types which are normally tuned in the nouvel accord ordinaire (d-minor) 
withoput changing any string. And it works. 
Of course the feeling changes - but I can handle it.
If I make a concert program, I have normally one instrument in the dedff and 
the other in edeff and fedff tuning. For the tunings see:
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Abhandlung/Accords/Accords_Darstellung/Accords_Darstellung.html
or
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/styled-5/styled-9/index.html
(the beginning of the translated homepage... the remaining pages and a better 
formatted design will follow in the next months...)

It's simply not thinkable that the lutenists of the transitional period 
restringed their lutes for every tuning! So we have to find solutions which are 
near by the old practice.

By the way: With gut strings it's more comfortable to change tunings than with 
modern string materials.

All the best,

Andreas

Am 29.08.2017 um 15:36 schrieb Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>:

> Unfortunately it isn't really possible to play the music for 10-course lute 
> in transitional tunings without changing a number of strings (or having a 
> second lute) if you're coming from vieil ton. Even going from one 
> transitional tuning to another is problematic, especially with respect to the 
> chanterelle.
> 
> Best,
> Matthew
> 
> On 29/08/2017 15:21, Leonard Williams wrote:
>>  I don't play anything of the transitional tuning period, but my
>> experience with retuning between D or C on my eighth course makes me
>> wonder about the need to change strings for retuning.  (I came up [aided
>> by Dan Larsen] with a gimped gut that's not too flabby on the C, not too
>> bright on the D.)  Perhaps it's easier to accommodate variable tuning with
>> higher pitches?  Are different materials more amenable to this? Do you
>> need several lutes, or simply a program arranged from a single tuning
>> scheme?
>> 
>> Thanks—just curious,
>> Leonard Williams
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch


--

[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear Anthony,

There's one tiorbino made by Johannes Hieber and Andreas Pfanzelt in Geneva, 
Musée d'art et d'histoire, inv. no. IM 80. 
This instrument has a new soundboard with a new bridge, but the pegs give the 
following informations:
petit jeu:
11 pegs (suggesting 1x1 + 5x2, 48.4 cm string length)
grand jeu: 
5 pegs (suggesting 5x1, 75.3 cm)

It's depicted in my first book, p. 36/37.

All the best,

Andreas

Am 05.06.2017 um 21:47 schrieb Anthony Hart <anthony.hart1...@gmail.com>:

>   A question about tiobino. The Cleveland Tiorbino on Wayne's site shows
>   6 +8. The bases are single strung. What is the opinion of this set up?
>   If the basses are double should they be unison or octaves?
> 
>   There was a question earlier of the thiness of the 'b' (3rd). If the
>   tension is reduced then this becomes  a standard thickness. I have
>   calculated on 20/25 N, this was the tension recommended by Martin
>   Shepherd for Liuto  attiobato, which is the same size instrument.
> 
>   Any suggestions welcome.
> 
>   Thanks and best wishes
> 
>   Anthony Hart
> 
>   [1]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
> 
>   --
> 
>   __
>   Anthony Hart  MSc, LLCM,ALCM.
>   Musicologist  and  Independent  Researcher
>   Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA
>   Mob: +356 9944 9552.
>   e-mail:  [2]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
>   [3]www.monsignor-reggio.com
>   NEW  Publications:  EDIZIONE  ANTONINO  REGGIO
>   -  [4]www.edizionear.com
>   for information and special offer
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
>   2. mailto:resea...@antoninoreggio.com
>   3. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
>   4. http://www.edizionear.com/
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch


--

[LUTE] O passi sparsi

[Andreas Schlegel]

Did somebody already made a Fronimo file (or another format which can easily 
been converted to a Sibelius file like MusicXML or MIDI) from "O passi sparsi" 
in the second lute setting by  Albert de Rippe and the Renaissance guitar 
version from Brayssing (in Le Roy's 4th guitar book)? And is willing to share 
this?
I like to compare the settings. 

Thanks a lot!

Andreas






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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Kupetzky image

[Andreas Schlegel]

We are speaking from the same - but in a different way:

I'm speaking from the real breaking point at 250 Hz*m and you from the "limit 
point" for the use, which is of course lower.

Ciao

Am 08.04.2017 um 14:52 schrieb Mimmo <mperu...@aquilacorde.com>:

>   ..thanks Andreas
> 
>   ..actually the working index of the majority od surviving and hoping
>   not modified lutes and even 5 course guitars whose standard pitch is
>   more or less can be know ( French pitch , German , Venetian pitch)
>   raging from 220 till 235 Hz/mt that is the poit were a gut top string
>   start to stop to follow the stress /strain proportion. After this limit
>   the string go ahead to breack (this happen two sentitone far, more or
>   less. Depend by the string)
> 
>   After that point a gut string do not stretch furthermore while the
>   frequency start to increase in a very fast way even for few turn of the
>   peg (daniello bartoli 1670 ca: a gut string breack when it cannot
>   stretch furthermore )
> 
>   A working index of 250 is out of any possibility. There is another
>   explanation that at present I do not have concerning the pitch
>   standard
> 
>   Ciao
> 
>   Mimmo
> 
>   Il giorno 08 apr 2017, alle ore 14:28, Andreas Schlegel
>   <[1]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> ha scritto:
> 
> Dear Mimmo,
> 
>   First of all:
> 
>   Strings for bowed instruments and strings for plucked instruments are
>   more or less the same in fabrication - but not the same in the concrete
>   musical use, as you know. So it's clear to me that there's a difference
>   between the introduction of new string types for the two categories of
>   sound production.
> 
>   We have an other thing to think about (I spoke in Bremen on that topic,
>   too):
> 
>   The string length of old instruments is not so "normalised" than we
>   have it today! The old ones had instruments from 65.5 up to 80 - and
>   for the Deutsche Theorbe (with tuning d' a d f A G ...) very close to
>   the breaking point for a'=415 Hz and 250 Hz*m at 85.5 cm (Venere /
>   Schelle Leipzig 3357) or 88 cm (Schelle 1728 Nürnberg MIR 574).
> 
>   In the 1720ies we have many 13-course lutes with bass rider (f.ex.
>   Edlinger) with 75-78 cm. (By the way: They were tuned in which pitch???
>   As close as possible to the breaking point [will be around e'/eb']?
>   Lower?)
> 
>   Lutes with swan neck up from c.1735 have again shorter string lengths.
> 
>   My simplification is at moment:
> 
>   The swan neck (and the long 13-course lutes with bass rider) was an
>   answer to the not completely satisfying use of overwound strings (which
>   were used for the lowest basses only!) and the relatio of 3:4 (around a
>   fourth) between petit jeu and grand jeu allowed to go back to a
>   stringing in entirely the same material (the ambitus for the tones was
>   f'-A [32 halftones] but the ambitus for the string material was reduced
>   with the swan neck to f'-D [27 halftones]). We have to see that the
>   octaves on swan neck lutes are also more brilliant than on a bass rider
>   system.
> 
>   You know that I have my Edlinger stringed with your open wound strings
>   - and they work really well. But the main problem is the break from
>   plain gut to overwound strings. My stringing with overwound strings
>   from the 6th course down seems to be not historically correct - at
>   least for the first decades (but is much better than a mix). I recorded
>   the Rust and Hagen sonatas with violin with this strings - and the
>   sound is really convincing.
> 
>   There's one single instrument which is - in my opinion - converted for
>   the use of overwound bass strings: the Venere / Schelle Leipzig 3357
>   which has no octaves in the grand jeu and which was a normal tiorba,
>   but shortened in 1723/26. Perhaps the airplanes were invented in those
>   times and it was more practical to have a smaller tiorba... ;-)
> 
>   All the best,
> 
>   Andreas
> 
>   Am 08.04.2017 um 13:46 schrieb Mimmo Peruffo
>   <[2]mperu...@aquilacorde.com>:
> 
> Thanks Andreas. I have to know that
> Ah,  one more thing in matter of the 13 course swan neck  lute:
> There are some paintings were it is possible to 'see' white basses
> on the extended neck. Said that,. there is a well detaileed painting
> (David van Edward source) were the long diapasons are thick and in a
> grey colour. what to think?
> One thing intrigue me: if the long basses were actually made of pure
> gut (and the risk is to have no advantage in the performances on a
> 13 course lute with the rider strung with wound strings), WHY the
> scale was limited to 95 cms more or less only?  

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Kupetzky image

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear Mimmo,

First of all:
Strings for bowed instruments and strings for plucked instruments are more or 
less the same in fabrication - but not the same in the concrete musical use, as 
you know. So it's clear to me that there's a difference between the 
introduction of new string types for the two categories of sound production.

We have an other thing to think about (I spoke in Bremen on that topic, too):
The string length of old instruments is not so "normalised" than we have it 
today! The old ones had instruments from 65.5 up to 80 - and for the Deutsche 
Theorbe (with tuning d' a d f A G ...) very close to the breaking point for 
a'=415 Hz and 250 Hz*m at 85.5 cm (Venere / Schelle Leipzig 3357) or 88 cm 
(Schelle 1728 Nürnberg MIR 574).
In the 1720ies we have many 13-course lutes with bass rider (f.ex. Edlinger) 
with 75-78 cm. (By the way: They were tuned in which pitch??? As close as 
possible to the breaking point [will be around e'/eb']? Lower?)
Lutes with swan neck up from c.1735 have again shorter string lengths.

My simplification is at moment:
The swan neck (and the long 13-course lutes with bass rider) was an answer to 
the not completely satisfying use of overwound strings (which were used for the 
lowest basses only!) and the relatio of 3:4 (around a fourth) between petit jeu 
and grand jeu allowed to go back to a stringing in entirely the same material 
(the ambitus for the tones was f'-A [32 halftones] but the ambitus for the 
string material was reduced with the swan neck to f'-D [27 halftones]). We have 
to see that the octaves on swan neck lutes are also more brilliant than on a 
bass rider system. 

You know that I have my Edlinger stringed with your open wound strings - and 
they work really well. But the main problem is the break from plain gut to 
overwound strings. My stringing with overwound strings from the 6th course down 
seems to be not historically correct - at least for the first decades (but is 
much better than a mix). I recorded the Rust and Hagen sonatas with violin with 
this strings - and the sound is really convincing.

There's one single instrument which is - in my opinion - converted for the use 
of overwound bass strings: the Venere / Schelle Leipzig 3357 which has no 
octaves in the grand jeu and which was a normal tiorba, but shortened in 
1723/26. Perhaps the airplanes were invented in those times and it was more 
practical to have a smaller tiorba... ;-)

All the best,

Andreas

Am 08.04.2017 um 13:46 schrieb Mimmo Peruffo <mperu...@aquilacorde.com>:

> Thanks Andreas. I have to know that
> 
> Ah,  one more thing in matter of the 13 course swan neck  lute: There are 
> some paintings were it is possible to 'see' white basses on the extended 
> neck. Said that,. there is a well detaileed painting (David van Edward 
> source) were the long diapasons are thick and in a grey colour. what to think?
> 
> One thing intrigue me: if the long basses were actually made of pure gut (and 
> the risk is to have no advantage in the performances on a 13 course lute with 
> the rider strung with wound strings), WHY the scale was limited to 95 cms 
> more or less only?  I would reach 120 cm almost just to still have the 
> octaves to the basses and better performances over the wound strings  of the 
> 13 course lutewith rider.
> heck.
> Mimmo
> 
> 
> -Messaggio originale- From: Andreas Schlegel
> Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2017 12:04 PM
> To: Mimmo Peruffo
> Cc: lute list ; Baroque Lute List
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Kupetzky image
> 
> Dear Mimmo,
> 
>> You Andreas discovered the Lexicon of 1715 that actually was the fist german 
>> source discovered.
> I think it was Michael Treder who published first this source in his "Ein 
> irdisches Vergnügen für Barocklaute" (I received an early version in 2010). 
> Perhaps Tim Crawford knew the Lexikon earlier, but who knows? It was at least 
> a topic in 2012 in Bemen at the Bach symposium and I already knew the 
> citation by Michael and was surprised that Tim mentioned it, too, in his 
> lecture.
> Per Kjetil Farstad doen't mentioned in his "Lautenistinnen in Deutschland im 
> 18. Jahrhundert" from 2011.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Andreas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch


--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Kupetzky image

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear Mimmo,

> You Andreas discovered the Lexicon of 1715 that actually was the fist german 
> source discovered.
I think it was Michael Treder who published first this source in his "Ein 
irdisches Vergnügen für Barocklaute" (I received an early version in 2010). 
Perhaps Tim Crawford knew the Lexikon earlier, but who knows? It was at least a 
topic in 2012 in Bemen at the Bach symposium and I already knew the citation by 
Michael and was surprised that Tim mentioned it, too, in his lecture.
Per Kjetil Farstad doen't mentioned in his "Lautenistinnen in Deutschland im 
18. Jahrhundert" from 2011.

All the best,

Andreas




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Kupetzky image

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear all,

Thanks a lot for all support!

The important detail on this picture is for us the bass string of the 11th 
course which seems to be a string which is overspun with silver wire. 
Important other details for the datation are given by Jiri Arnet:
http://baroque-lute.webnode.cz/products/portrait-of-david-hoyer-playing-lute/

But the most important question is the date of the portrait. The date is not 
1711 as written in some articles and as file name, but 1716. I found this on p. 
25-28 of:
http://www.mdz-nbn-resolving.de/urn/resolver.pl?urn=urn:nbn:de:bvb:12-bsb10915517-1

Johann C. Füssli: Leben Georg Philipp Rugendas und Johann Kupezki, Zürich 1758

So it's one year after the Frauenzimmer-Lexikon, in which the first time the 
use of overspun strings on a lute instrument is mentioned - as far as I know. 
(The Piccinini citation is very unclear and it's not very probable that he 
meant overspun strings.)

All the best

Andreas





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[LUTE] Re: Source for Guedron, "Aux Plaisirs".

[Andreas Schlegel]

After Guillo 
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=18753196923=sortby%3D17%26an%3Dguillo%2Blaurent
p. 340:
1v et luth: P.Guédron, tabl. G.Bataille: 1614-C
1v P.Guédron 1615-B
5v P.Guédron 1617-G+

Andreas

Am 08.04.2017 um 05:29 schrieb Christopher Stetson 
<christophertstet...@gmail.com>:

>   Hi,
>   Can someone tell me where I can find Pierre Guedron's "Aux Plaisirs,
>   aux Delices Bergeres"?   I know someone knows off-hand, and I don't
>   have  the time to go searching myself.
>   Thanks,
>   Chris.
> 
>   --
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch


--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Jan Kupetzky - Lute player

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear all,

Has somebody a much better file of Jan Kupetzky's lute player (c. 1711) than 
the Wikimedia file?
And if yes: Could he please send me the file? It's for a lecture on Sunday.

Thanks a lot!

Andreas



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[LUTE] Re: Ballard 1623 ?

[Andreas Schlegel]

Something taken from the book "The Lute in Europe 2":
There is a total of 1,923 pieces in Accords nouveaux so far known in 42 
manuscripts and 7 publications. Concerning the loss of sources suffice it here 
to note, that following Mersenne, the printer Ballard published a collection 
every year. From the 1623 edition only the title page is known, and only a 
single copy survives of the 1631 and 1638 publications.
Laurent Guillo: Pierre I Ballard et Robert III Ballard. Imprimeurs du roy pour 
la musique (1599-1673), 2 Vols., Sprimont 2003. Here: Vol. II, p. 194 under 
1623-J, pp. 256f. under 1631-D, and pp. 318f. under 1638-F. 

 
Am 16.03.2017 um 16:54 schrieb Thomas Walker <twlute...@hotmail.com>:

>   Thanks for the question and answer, gents, although I don't like the
>   answer.  I had thought that Ballard's 1623 was lost, but I didn't
>   realize it was so painfully recent.  So close, yet so far.  Another
>   thing for me to wake up nights wondering about...that and
>   Kapsperger's Libro secundo d'intavolatura di lauto (1619).
>   cheers,
>   tom
> __
> 
>   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
>   of Jean-Marie Poirier <jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>
>   Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 4:54 AM
>   To: jo.lued...@t-online.de; 'Lute List'
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ballard 1623 ?
> 
>   Thank you Joachim ! It seems it's definitely a closed door then :-( !
>   Al the best,
>   Jean-Marie
>   --
> 
>> Dear Jean-Marie:
>> 
>> "BALLARD, Pierre (ed.). Tablature de Luth de differents auteurs sur
>   l'accord ordinaire et extraordinaire recueillie par P. Ballard, Paris:
>   P. Ballard, 1623 (the title page alone was part of the collection of
>   March Pincherle, when this was auctioned in Paris [Hôtel Drouot], 3 to
>   5 March 1975 – its present whereabouts are unknown)."
>> 
>> (From the source list of F.-P. Goy's thesis on the manuscript sources
>   of music in Accords Nouveaux. This can be found in Andreas Schlegel's
>   website accordsnouveaux.ch.)
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> Joachim
>> 
>> 
>> -Original-Nachricht-
>> Betreff: [LUTE] Ballard 1623 ?
>> Datum: 2017-03-15T10:03:06+0100
>> Von: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>
>> An: "'Lute List'" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> 
>> Dear all,
>> 
>> There are dozens of references circulating to Ballard's 1623
>   "Tablature de luth de differents auteurs sur l'accord ordinaire et
>   extraordinaire", declared "Lost"
>> except its title page... I could not find a single reference giving
>   the whereabouts of this mysterious title-page.
>> 
>> Would anyone on this list know where precisely this precious document
>   is preserved ?
>> 
>> Thank you for your feedback anyway !
>> 
>> Best wishes to all,
>> 
>> Jean-Marie Poirier
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   [2]Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list
>   www.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list. getting
>   on and off the list; How do I get on the lute mail list? How do I get
>   off the lute mail list?
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> References
> 
>   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch


--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: F-Pcnrs Ms. sans cote

[Andreas Schlegel]

g "Flat French" (f’,d’,b,g,d,A,G,F,Es,D,C), and I
>> added two more movement each one from the manuscript US-Rm Ms. Vault M140
>> V186S and F-Pcnrs Ms. sans cote (“Bullen Reymes MS”). The “Flat French
>> Tuning” was very fashioned at this time and represents the authentic way to
>> play the lute during the early 17th century both in France and England.
>> 
>> Thank you, Ernst
>> Biochemist in Vienna
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

[LUTE] Re: Gautier in viel ton

[Andreas Schlegel]

..@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>on behalf
>>   of Rainer <[4]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
>>   Sent: Friday, February 10, 2017 2:54 PM
>>   To: Lute net
>>   Subject: [LUTE] Gautier in viel ton
>>   Dear lute netters,
>>   can anybody recommend pieces by Ennemond Gautier in viel ton
>>(with
>>   sources)?
>>   I have John Robinson's list, but it is very old and, of course,
>>doesn't
>>   tell us anything about the quality of the music.
>>   Rainer adS
>>   PS
>>   of course, I have a 10c lute.
>>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>>   [1][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>   [2]Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list
>>   [6]www.cs.dartmouth.edu
>>   Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list.
>>getting
>>   on and off the list; How do I get on the lute mail list? How do I
>>get
>>   off the lute mail list?
>>   --
>>References
>>   1. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>   2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>>  --
>> 
>> References
>> 
>>  1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
>>  2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>  3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>  4. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
>>  5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>  6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/
>>  7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>  8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
> 
> 

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch


--

[LUTE] Re: Source for Le Berceau Canarie

[Andreas Schlegel]

Or this:
Le Berceau, F-Pn Rés. Vmc ms. 61, 119

http://w1.bnu.fr/smt/canarie.htm#berceau

119 is the piece number. You have to go to the SMT catalogue to find the 
page/folio. Here it's on f. 47r, second piece.

Andi

Am 19.12.2016 um 11:05 schrieb b...@symbol4.de:

>   is it this:
>   http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?langÞu=1=1=mss=0
>   st=1===¾rceau===0
> 
>   ?
> 
>   Gesendet: Montag, 19. Dezember 2016 um 02:04 Uhr
>   Von: "David Smith" <d...@dolcesfogato.com>
>   An: "Lute List" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>   Betreff: [LUTE] Source for Le Berceau Canarie
>   I am working on a piece in Miguel Serdoura’s Method for Baroque Lute
>   and am trying to find the manuscript it is from.
>   In his edition, he references CZ-Pa Ms. Prunières and that it is by
>   Dubut (le père).
>   I have done some looking for this but cannot find the manuscript in the
>   Praha, Státnà ArchÃv or anywhere else.
>   Anyone have a suggestion where I might find the source for this?
>   Regards
>   Dvid
>   --
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> References
> 
>   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch


--

[LUTE] Capodaster systems for baroque lutes

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear collected wisdom,

I made once a call for pictures / hints for capodaster systems on baroque lutes 
and other instruments from the 18th century. I received then some pictures. 
Because of a loss of datas I have no longer all my notes on such instruments 
and on the pictures I still have on my computer. So I like to make a new call. 
Perhaps some new discoveries are available now.

If you are intersted in the topic, I can send the pictures I have for the 
identification of the instrument / museum. Please contact me off-list because 
of the attachments. If requested, I make a short abstract for the list, when I 
have received the necessary informations.

Thanks a lot for all contributions!

Andreas





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[LUTE] Martin, François, guitar book of 1663

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear collected wisdom,

Has anybody a copy of this guitar book:
Martin, François: Pièces de guitairre [!], à battre et à pinser ... premier 
livre, Paris 1663 (F-Psg = Paris, Bibliothèque Saint-Geneviève)

If yes, I would be very glad to see at least some pages of this book. Thanks a 
lot!!!

Andreas



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[LUTE] Sandro Zanetti and James Rust

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear collected wisdom,

I'm looking for pictures from my former guitar teacher and lute maker Sandro 
Zanetti. If you have pictures and if you are willing to share them, please send 
me the files on my private mail account. The lute list doesn't accept 
attachments.

And: I'm looking for James Rust. In 1975, he was 23 years old and played a lute 
concert at J.B.Speed Art Museum on 31 August - on a Zanetti lute.
See: https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/108089081/
Scroll to the OCR text.

Thanks a lot for all your support!

Andreas



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[LUTE] Re: Sorry Re: Respighi and Lute Sources

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear Arthus, Ron and others,

Thanks a lot for the very quick help!

I have Dick's book in my library and so I can work now.

All the best,

Andreas

Am 26.06.2016 um 19:46 schrieb AJN :

>  Sorry my post didn't make it through very well.  I have also downloaded
>  it to Dan Shoske's Lute Network.
>  http://lutegroup.ning.com/
>  The layout there is closer to what I intended.  I think the problem is
>  with my Verizon eMail processor.
>  ajn.
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Respighi and lute sources

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear collected wisdom,

i was asked by a friend about the exact sources to the three Respighi-suites
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Airs_and_Dances
Some are easily to find (f.ex. Laura soave) - but others are quite difficult 
(f.ex. the Siciliana which is not in the collected works of Santino Garsi, ed. 
by Dieter Kirsch).

Has somebody a list from the exact sources (with page/folio number)?

Thanks a lot for any support!

Andreas





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[LUTE] Barbe is online

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear Susan,

Ms. Barbe (F-Pn Rés. Vmb ms. 7) is online:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b530592353/f1.image.r=Recueil%20de%20pièces%20de%20Luth%20en%20tablature

All the best,

Andreas


Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
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lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




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[LUTE] Re: Waissel Tabulatura - addition

[Andreas Schlegel]

Hello again!

Thanks to everybody who made contributions. But it's a little bit tricky:

Waissel printed four different and totally five lute books - see Howard Mayer 
Brown, Paul Kieffer's list http://www.lutelibrary.com/composer/waissel-matthus
or VD16: 
https://opacplus.bib-bvb.de/TouchPoint_touchpoint/refineHitList.do?methodToCall=refineHitList=search==19_-1=19_SORTING_4_sorting_19=Sortieren=19_10

I added some informations from Howard Mayer Brown and my commentary:

1
Waissel, Matthäus. TABULATURA CONTINENS INSIGNES ET SELECTISSIMAS QUASQUE 
Cantiones [...]. Frankfurt an der Oder: Joan Eichorn 1573. (Brown 15733) 
VD16 W 768
Copies in B-Br, D-Mbs, D-W, H-Bn
The copy of D-Mbs is online: 
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0008/bsb00083819/images/?viewmode=1
2
Waissel, Matthäus. TABULATURA Allerley künstlicher [...]. Andream Eichorn: 
Frankfurt an der Oder 1591. (Brown 159113)
VD16 W 766
This is one of the books I like to see, but first of all the dition of 1592, 
see below.
Copy in D-Ngm (imperfect) (I asked for a digitalisation.)

3
Waissel, Matthäus. Lautenbuch Darinn VON DER TAbulatur und Application der 
Lauten [...]. Andream Eichorn: Frankfurt an der Oder 1592. (Brown 159212)
This is in Sarge Gerbode's treasure: 
http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/waissel/1592/
VD16 W 764
Copy in D-W; lost copies were in D-B and D-SCHLO (= castle of Schlobitten, 
destroyed in 1945)

4
Waissel, Matthäus. TABULATURA Allerley künstlicher [...]. Andream Eichorn: 
Frankfurt an der Oder 1592. (Brown [1592]13), reprint of Brown 159113
This is the book I wanted.
VD16 not mentioned 
Copies, now lost, were in: D-Bds, D-LÜh, D-SCHLO
Perhaps somebody has a copy made before WWII???

5
Waissel, Matthäus. TABULATURA Guter gemeiner Deudtscher Tentze [...]. Andream 
Eichorn: Frankfurt an der Oder 1592. (Brown 159214)
It's VD16 W 767
Copy in D-W; a lost copy was in D-SCHLO


So I need copies of number 4 and 5 (Brown 1592-13 and 1592-14).

Thanks for all your support!

Andreas




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[LUTE] Waissel Tabulatura

[Andreas Schlegel]

Hello!

Has somebody a copy of Waissel, Tabulatura Allerley künstlicher Preambulen… 
Frankfurt a.O. 1592 and could share it?

Thanks a lot!

Andreas






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[LUTE] Hidalgo Fret pattern

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear collected wisdom,

I found this in Bob Spencer's collection, now in the Royal Academy of Music, 
London:
https://www.ram.ac.uk/museum/item/20514
http://keimages.ram.ac.uk/emuweb/php5/media.php?irn=16670

Who knows the exact meaning of this engraving?
Is there a translation of the text?

Thanks a lot!

All the best,

Andreas


Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
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lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




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[LUTE] Re: A Lute of Six Courses

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear Martin,

Waissel 1592 is a bit tricky:
He says that all of the "Bomhart" have an octave - but he doesn't give a 
complete terminology for all the strings (excepted the names deriving from the 
tablature like "Tertia", which ist the third course, in the German tablature 
the cipher 3). So we can't say if he's speaking in the tradition of "grosser 
Bomhart / grössten Brummer" (= 6th course), "mittlerer Bomhart / mittel 
Brummer" (5th course) and "kleiner Bomhart / kleiner Brummer" (= 4th course) 
like older treatises as Newsidler. 

If the tradition is broken, I don't know any German source in which this "new" 
tradition with only two "Bomhart / Brummer" appears. So without any new proofs 
for a broken tradition I would say that in the German countries the octave 
until the 4th course is living at least until Waissel in 1592 - but it's not 
certain.

Have a nice 2016!

Andreas

Am 01.01.2016 um 11:39 schrieb Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>:

> Hi Sterling,
> 
> Here is what I wrote a little while ago in response to a question from Robert 
> Barto.  I hope it helps.
> ---
> This is an interesting question.  Off the top of my head:
> 
> I don't think Spinacino (1507) mentions octaves in his introductory material, 
> but there are some classic examples of octaves in his intabulations, 
> especially in the opening of "Haray tre amours" (Book 2, f.15v.) where the 
> opening flourish finishes, not on the open 2nd course, but on the second fret 
> of the 5th course.
> 
> Attaingnant's tuning instructions (1529) tell us to use octaves on 4-6.  His 
> arrangements of chansons for voice and lute also suggest pretty unambiguously 
> an octave on the 4th course (e.g. cadences which go from c4a5 to d3a4).
> 
> Not sure whether Hans Newsidler's instructions (1536) talk about it, but the 
> woodcut of a lute showing the symbols of German tablature clearly shows 
> octaves on 4-6.  There is also evidence of octaves in his intabulations.
> 
> Adrian le Roy's Instructions (English translation, 1574), in discussing the 
> intabulation of "De corps absent" on f.42(?) mentions using the octave on the 
> 5th course to solve a problem in the intabulation, and in passing mentions 
> that this ruse would not be possible with a lute strung in the manner of 
> Fabritio Dentice and his followers (which is where we get the idea that 
> Dentice was a leading proponent of unison stringing).  I had a feeling that 
> somewhere Le Roy tells us to use octaves on 4-6, but I can't find it at the 
> moment.
> 
> I have a feeling that Waissel's instructions (1592 book?) use octaves but I 
> don't have the facsimile - can anyone help?
> 
> Barley (1596) prints a version of Le Roy's instructions and also has a 
> woodcut of a lute which seems to show octaves on 4-6.  Can't immediately find 
> my copy of that either.
> 
> When Dowland is talking about octaves in 1610, he recommends using a unison 
> 6th course, and says that the practice of using an octave (on the 6th course) 
> was used "nowhere so much as here in England".  In fact there are many 
> passages in John Johnson, Francis Cutting, Anthony Holborne and even Dowland 
> where octaves even up to the 4th course seem to be implied, so it seems that 
> use of octaves persisted longer in England than elsewhere and may even have 
> been common in the 1590s.
> 
> I hope others can add to this list and confirm (or otherwise) some of my 
> references.
> 
> ---
> 
> - Original Message - From: "sterling price" 
> <spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> To: "Lutelist Net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 11:04 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] A Lute of Six Courses
> 
> 
>>   Dear list--
>>  Yesterday I got a new six course lute. This is the first time I have
>>  really played one.
>>  Question--is there an octave generally on the fourth course? Say for
>>  Milano and such. But I also plan to play vihuela music on this, so then
>>  no octaves?
>>  Sterling
>> 
>>  --
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> 

Andreas Schlegel
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CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[LUTE] D-B Mus.ms. 40165

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear collected wisdom

Has somebody this source and could I get a copy of it? 

Thanks a lot for any support!

Andreas



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[LUTE] Re: Piccinini

[Andreas Schlegel]

Old lutes are most usually a puzzle of parts of different times. Exactly the 
same, if you have a close look on the books of Piccinnini and Kapsberger: They 
published pieces for different instruments (perhaps, but not certainly written 
in different times) for people with different instruments at home. 
We can see that "old" types like the 11-course Baroque lute were in use for a 
long time after the invention/development of a new type - here the 13-course 
Baroque lute (f.ex. Kellner's print for 11-course lute in 1747). Why not the 
same game in the beginning of the 17th century? 
The 11-course tiorba is used in 109 pieces by Kapsberger - and 71 pieces 
require only 10 course, 6 9 courses, 3 8 courses, 8 7 courses and 1 6 courses 
[!] - so totally 199 of 237 tiorba pieces by Kapsberger are written for an 
instrument with 11-courses. Who has such an instrument at home? Does it existed 
in the 17th century or had they from the very first moment of the development 
the final 14-course - excuse: 19-course - tiorba at home (Kapsberger published 
10 pieces for 19-course tiorba in 1612, 1626 and 1640 editions)? 
In the beginning of the 17th century the individual construction of lute types 
arised - after the uniform construction before and the "Füssen Kartell" (see 
the studies of Klaus Martius & Josef Focht). 
Have a look on all the pictures of that time and you will find our nowadays 
"standard" types - but also a big number of instruments with more individual 
features.

Andreas

Am 02.09.2015 um 09:13 schrieb Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>:

> Yes - the same is true of Kapsberger, some pieces require fewer courses.  I 
> suppose these collections of pieces were often made over a period of time, 
> and by the time they were published some of them were, as Dowland says of the 
> songs in his first book, "ripe enough by their age".
> 
> If I remember correctly Piccinini's trio requires only 7 courses on all the 
> lutes, and presumably dates from when he was playing with his brothers in the 
> 1580s.  He was an old man by the time his book was published in 1623. Strange 
> to think he was an exact contemporary of Dowland.
> 
> Martin
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Konstantin Shchenikov" 
> <konstantin.n...@gmail.com>
> To: "lute list" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 8:38 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Piccinini
> 
> 
>> Though Piccinini describes 13 course lute in his 1623 preface, I know
>> at least two pieces, asking just for 7 cources. Corrente V (1st book)
>> and famous Passacaglia (2nd book). May be there is another examples,
>> but haven't played all Piccinini pieces through.
>> 
>> 2015-09-01 22:11 GMT+04:00 Konstantin Shchenikov <konstantin.n...@gmail.com>:
>>> Though Piccinini describes 13 course lute in his 1623 preface, I know at
>>> least two pieces, asking just for 7 cources. Corrente V (1st book) and
>>> famous Passacaglia (2nd book). May be there is another examples, but haven't
>>> played all Piccinini pieces through.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> 

Andreas Schlegel
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[LUTE] Tiorba

[Andreas Schlegel]

Here's a nice picture:

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/paintings/neapolitan-school-17th-century-portrait-of-a-5916349-details.aspx?from=searchresultsintObjectID=5916349sid=cffbc3d2-7de9-403b-a31a-94f4bc307181

Not a modern theorbo. An old tiorba with double courses on the petit jeu.

Enjoy! 

Andreas






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[LUTE] Re: Bach, Prelude from BWV 995

[Andreas Schlegel]

Here the text in German (see www.lautengesellschaft.de Tabulaturen und Noten 
and scroll down)

Lautentabulaturen
aus Schloss Rohrau
(Ms. Harrach)   Faksimileausgabe der auf Schloss Rohrau (nahe Wien), Residenz 
der Familie Harrach, befindlichen zwei Lautentabulaturbände.

Der erste Band enthält zum größten Teil Werke von Sylvius Leopold Weiss , unter 
anderem 11 mehr-sätzige Suiten, die bisher- unbekannt waren, sowie ein 
komplettes viersätziges Duo für zwei Lauten und die Suite in A, bisher als 
Lautensolo überliefert, als Trio-komposition mit Violine und Bass.

Der Titel des zweiten Bandes Lautenmusik von unbekannten Componisten entstand 
offenbar in Unkenntnis der Musik, da auch hier durch Konkordanzenforschung 
bisher schon vier Suiten Weiss zugeschrieben werden konnten. Zusätzlich finden 
sich einige Suiten in einem Stil, der dem von Weiss sehr nahe kommt. 
Überraschenderweise enthält der Band auch vier Stücke in italienischer 
Tabulatur in Renaissance-Stimmung.Die 200 Seiten starken Bände schließen neben 
den beiden bisherigen Weiss-Manuskripten in London und Dresden eine Lücke in 
der Quellenlage Weiss´scher Lautenmusik, da sie vor allem Stücke der frühen 
Schaffensperiode beinhalten.
Insgesamt enthalten die beiden Manuskripte aus Rohrau 167 Sätze für Laute, in 
26 suitenähnlichen Abfolgen angeordnet. 

Beide Bände in einem Band mit umfangreichem musikwissenschaftlichen Apparat als 
Faksimiledruck mit Fadenheftung und Leineneinband .


Am 13.02.2015 um 22:05 schrieb Bernd Haegemann b...@symbol4.de:

 On 13.02.2015 20:42, Dan Winheld wrote:
 
 
 Actually, you sinned much worse on a Weiss Courante from the Rohrau Ms. 
 (which is what, by the way? Never heard of it!)
 
 
 http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1type=msms=A-ROIlang=engshowmss=1
 
 
 
 
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The Lute Corner
Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Schweiz
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
www.accordsnouveaux.ch
i...@accordsnouveaux.ch


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[LUTE] Lute cases

[Andreas Schlegel]

Hello,

I just received a query from a friend of mine who is looking for historical 
pictures of lute cases. If somebody knows such pictures, please send the links 
or advice. Thank you very much!

Andreas





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] New source from Switzerland

[Andreas Schlegel]

I just finished the work on a recently discovered single sheet with a lute 
version of the air Amarillis je renonce à vos charmes. I have to add some 
versions later when they arrive, but it's a good first overview.

http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/DownloadD/files/CH-A_AH_70-157_20140921.pdf

Enjoy!

Andreas
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[LUTE] A new source: das Rodauer Lautenbuch

[Andreas Schlegel]

Finally I can send you the link to a new source. The foreword with the 
commented inventory is not completely visible in this PDF (I will add the 
final version when I have finished the work). But it's an interesting source 
for 11-course lute in Vieil ton. Enjoy!

http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Rodau/Rodau.html
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/DownloadD/files/Rodauer_LB_140824_1-90.pdf

Andreas


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[LUTE] La Vignonne / L'Avignonne

[Andreas Schlegel]

Hello

I gave a wrong shelfmark to my copy of Alis Dickinson's article The Courante 
'La Vignonne'. In the steps of a popular dance, in: Early Music 10/1 (1982) 
pp. 56-62 and can't find it in my library.

Has somebody a copy and could share it?

Thanks a lot!

Andreas





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] PL-Kj 40622

[Andreas Schlegel]

Hello!

I'm looking for a copy of PL-Kj 40622. It's a tablature for the Hamburger 
Cithrinchen. Could somebody help me?

Thanks a lot!


Andreas 
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[LUTE] Re: Theorbo set up

[Andreas Schlegel]

For me it's the question: What the old ones had as setup?

Normally, we can say: An instrument with more pegs than used strings is a 
modern invention (of course, the early French theorbo seems to have a single 
strung petit jeu, but was perhaps built for double courses in the petit jeu).

And: Yes, I'm guilty, too ;-)

Normal for the Italian tiorba was 6x2 + 8x1.

Andreas

Am 20.02.2014 um 15:28 schrieb Taco Walstra:

 On 02/20/2014 01:59 PM, Anthony Hart wrote:
 
 Hi, much depends on the type of strings you use. The 8-6 configuration will 
 give you a low F on the fingerboard but in plain gut it's not a nice sound. 
 However, it gives the possibility to tune quickly between movements or 
 pieces, when playing continuo in an ensemble, to F# or back. For a long F 
 string you'll need to climb on your chair to tune it back :-) (well standup 
 is enough, but it's a bit of a problem during a concert with an ensemble). I 
 use as lowest string on the fingerboard a G (i.e. the 7-7 configuration) 
 which is already problematic in plain gut, but with hightwist acceptable. I 
 really want to have the possibility to play G# and G. The lack of a F# (or F) 
 is with continuo playing seldomly a problem. Some will say the same for the 
 G/G#. Matter of taste. Another problem you could encounter is the fret 
 location. My theorbo has its frets on an angle due to string diameter 
 differences...
 My archlute has an extra peg and my lowest diapason is a F or F# as 
 counterpart of the one which is an octave higher (first diapason). Needs some 
 getting used to but works and is also a possibility described by nigel north 
 in his book.
 best wishes
 Taco
 
Theorbos can be set up up as 6+8, 7+7 and 8+6. Does anyone have any
preference and reasons?
 
Thanks
 
Anthony
 
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Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch


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[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1

[Andreas Schlegel]

 tablature sources which require, for example, a re-entrant
 tuning for an archlute (or various cognates). Do you?
 No, but there are hardly any archlute tablatures from the Corelli
 time I know of. Please provide some - I'm really interested in
   this
 topic.
 And of course there is the case of inverse reentrantness (read:
 excessive use of octave stringing) in the recently mentioned
 Basso Continuo/Partimento manuscipt from Rome.
 Cheers, Ralf Mattes
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 
   [1][2][6][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
   References
 1.
   [3][7][13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
 References
   1. mailto:[8][14]r...@mh-freiburg.de
   2. [9][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   3. [10][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
   References
 1. mailto:[17]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com
 2. mailto:[18]r...@mh-freiburg.de
 3. mailto:[19]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 4. mailto:[20]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 5. mailto:[21]r...@mh-freiburg.de
 6. [22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 7. [23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 8. mailto:[24]r...@mh-freiburg.de
 9. [25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 10. [26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
   --
 
 References
 
   1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius_Kircher
   2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theorbo#cite_note-1
   3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net
   6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   7. mailto:jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com
   8. mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de
   9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  10. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  11. mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de
  12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  14. mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de
  15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  17. mailto:jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com
  18. mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de
  19. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  20. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  21. mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de
  22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  23. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  24. mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de
  25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  26. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch


--

[LUTE] Re: Facsimile

[Andreas Schlegel]

Thanks, Rainer!

The first link is D-B 40588 - see:
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Quellen_CH/Quellen_CH.html

The second link has no connection to the images... but normally it works.

All the best,

Andreas

Am 25.01.2014 um 15:33 schrieb Rainer:

 Gerle 1532
 digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/dms/werkansicht/?PPN=PPN618952624
 
 4230   
 http://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/dms/werkansicht/?PPN=PPN745197221PHYSID=PHYS_0001
 
 Click on Werkzeugkasten
 
 The web pages are a nightmare...
 
 Rainer adS
 
 
 
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[LUTE] Ballet lute book

[Andreas Schlegel]

Happy new year - and have a look at:

http://digitalcollections.tcd.ie/home/index.php?DRIS_ID=MS408_001

Enjoy!

Andreas



Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms Danzig 4230 online

[Andreas Schlegel]

Thanks for sharing this link!

Yes, François-Pierre Goy made the Gaultier-Werkverzeichnis, which ill be part 
of our edition Französische Lautenmusik des 17. Jahrhunderts mit Beteiligung 
von Notator B der Rhétorique des Dieux (French lute music of the 17th century 
with participation of Notator B of the Rhétorique des Dieux). This edition 
will be finished in the next months and published by the Deutsche 
Lautengesellschaft.

We have here a second time music for baroque lutes in different pitches beside 
of Radolt (Radolt with chanterelle in f1, e flat1 and c1; here f1 d1 and c1): 
Fol. 11v-12r (Nr. 11), Contrepartie de Caprice de Gautier [at the end:] Il faut 
Jouer ces pieces auec un gros luth et acorder la 6e Du gros luth sur le bé de 
la 4e, and Fol. 12v-13r, Basso de Caprice Gaut: 



Am 04.09.2013 um 22:36 schrieb Ralf Bachmann:

   Ms Danzig 4230 online:
   http://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/dms/werkansicht/?PPN=PPN74519
   7221
   The short description in RISM:
   Collection 92 Dances
   Original title: [without title]
   Material: 1 parts lute 1 (french lute tablature)
   Manuscript: 1650-1699 (17.2d); 9 x 16 cm
   Remarks: lute 2 missing;
   Yeap, this one is a vast collection of Contreparties to existing lute
   solos, nice to look at but frustrating ...
   Would be interesting to have an up-to-date list of the matching lute
   parts.
   Is someone working on that and willing to share?
 
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[LUTE] Re: Petrus Fabricius

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear Josef,

If I remember correctly, it's Ralf Jarchow who is working on a facsimile - but 
it's not announced in his catalogue.
We have to wait.

Andreas

Am 30.07.2013 um 14:19 schrieb Josef Berger:

   Hello everybody,
   does there exist any complete edition of the Petrus Fabricius lutebook
   (DK-Kk, MS Thott 4ADEG841), or is the only way to play his lute music
   an access to the facsimile in Copenhagen?
   I know don't know of any editions other than the following:
   Bolte (1887) dealt with the songs which Fabricius notated in staff
   notation, but not with his instrumental tunes notated in German lute
   tablature.
   Povl Hamburger (1972) published some transcribed tunes and two pages in
   facsimile.
   Wohlfahrt (1989) was concerned only with the poetry in the lutebook and
   not with the music.
   Best wishes from southern Sweden (quite close to Copenhagen, actually)
   Josef Berger
   ---
   References:
   Johannes Bolte (1887): Das Liederbuch des Petrus Fabricius. Jahrbuch
   des Vereins fA 1/4r niederdeutsche Sprachforschung XIII. pp.55-68 +
   Musikbl.
   Povl Hamburger (1972): Aoeber die InstrumentalstA 1/4cke in dem
   Lautenbuch des Petrus Fabricius. in: Festskrift Jens Peter Larsen.
   1902-14 VI-1972.
   Wilhelm Hansen Musik-Forlag, KA,benhavn. pp.35-46.
   Roland Wohlfahrt (1989): Die Liederhandschrift des Petrus Fabricius,
   Kgl. Bibl. Kopenhagen, Thott. 4aDEG841. Eine Studentenliederhandschrift
   aus dem frA 1/4hen 17. Jahrhundert und ihr Umfeld. MA 1/4nster, 712 pp.
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rhetorique on-line?

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear Arto,

Be careful with the Rhétorique! It's not a source with any specially authorised 
versions of Gaultier's works! The connection between Denis Gaultier and the 
written tablature is absolutely not clear - if there exist any connection at 
all (beside of the fact that there is music by Denis and Ennemond Gaultier in 
the Rhétorique)!
François-Pierre Goy and me will publish this summer our very large work on this 
source and all the 33 pieces, written by Notator B in 6 sources. It's a very, 
very tricky story - and that's the reason for our around 350 pages (who will 
also include Goy's phantastic Gaultier-Werkverzeichnis and facsimiles of 2 
complete sources and parallel editions of all 33 pieces written by Notator B)!

All the best,

Andreas

Am 19.03.2013 um 21:30 schrieb Arto Wikla:

 Dear baroque lutenists,
 
 does anyone know, whether there is an on-line version of the facsimile of the 
 Rhetorique des Dieux by Denis Gaultier? The pictures of the ms. are in the 
 Net, but what about the tabulature, the actual music? Modern edition there 
 is, and also many versions of most of those pieces appear in many other mss., 
 but it anyhow would be interesting to see also the famous Rhetorique as it 
 really is...
 
 All the best,
 
 Arto
 
 
 
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[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto

[Andreas Schlegel]

To avoid misunderstandings I suggest to use the terms for instruments in the 
language of the most important region in which they were used. So I say 
Mandore to the small 16/17 c. instrument because the main sources are in 
France. See 
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Mandore/Mandore.html
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Mandore/Mandore_Instrumente/Mandore_Instrumente.html
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Mandore/Mandore_Musik/Mandore_Musik.html
(not completely finished - and only in German for the moment)
The Mandora is a German instrument.

Translations are so dangerous! What is a theorbo? In England, in France, in 
Italy, in Germany? They are different instruments. Nowadays we need a clear 
definition for all instruments in all centuries - not only the contemporary 
ones. And so the use of the adequate language can give an important information 
- perhaps with the prefix French, Italian...

Best,

Andreas

Am 21.01.2013 um 19:01 schrieb Monica Hall:

 Interesting list.  Most of them are late and do the sources actually say that 
 the pieces are for guitar?   In most cases it may just be that the tablature 
 is 4 lines and the tuning matches.
 
 Tyler says of the first one that the pieces were probably copied in 1570s - 
 but how does he know that?
 
 I have actually seen the manuscript in the Royal Academy of Music - in fact
 I have a copy of it.  It is 17th century rather than 16th and it belonged to 
 Robert Spencer.
 
 The 4-course music in Concerto Vago
 is for the chitarrino a quatro corde alla
 napolitana which may be a small lute or mandora.
 
 And as for  Boetischer - well he  is very unreliable - deliberately 
 misrepresented  things because he was a Nazi and anti-semitic.   I have just 
 been reading an article about Neusidler and he disparaged him for that reason.
 
 Best
 
 Monica
 
 - Original Message - From: Gary R. Boye boy...@appstate.edu
 To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Lutelist
 lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 5:26 PM
 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
 
 
 Dear Monica,
 
 I have a few more sources listed for 4-course guitar with at least Italian
 tablature, although possibly not all Italian:
 
 B-Bc MS LIt. XY no. 24135 [1570-1580 (tablature section)]
 (Italy?) [not in RISM; see TYLER p. 31]
 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
 
 GB-Lam Ms. 645 [1625 and 1650]
 Italian manuscript in tablature for 4-course chitarra (ca.1625) and
 single line tablature (?for violin) (Italy) [not in RISM; see TYLER p.
 83]
 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
 
 Thomassini 1645
 Thomassini, Filippo, publisher. Conserto vago di balletti, volte,
 corrente, et gagliarde, con la loro canzone alla franzese nuovamente posti
 in luce per sonare con liuto, tiorba, et *chitarrino a quatro corde alla
 napolitana* insieme, o soli ad arbitrio, e diletto de' virtuosi, et nobili
 professori, o studiosi dei questo instromento (Rome, [Italy]: Filippo
 Thomassini)
 8-course lute in Italian tablature
 11-course theorbo in Italian tablature
 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
 
 I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 28 [1667-1700]
 [RISM B/VII p. 107]
 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
 
 I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 29 [1667-1700]
 [RISM B/VII p. 108]
 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
 ***
 
 These last two depend on Boetticher for the instrumentation--and I fully
 realize how dangerous that is! I assume he merely counted the number of
 courses required in the tablature, but somehow he was unable to do even
 that in other circumstances. And perhaps the others are not the real 4c
 guitar?
 
 Gary
 
 On 1/21/2013 8:54 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
 Well - obviously the 4-course guitar was played in Spain although the
 extent to which it was played in the contrapuntal manner suggested by
 the few surviving pieces in Mudarra and Fuenllana is unknown.
 
 The point which Meucci makes about Barberiis is that it is a bit odd
 that a printed collection of lute music should include just four pieces
 for an instrument of a different type.   There are references to the
 chitarra which clearly imply (if that's not a contradiction) that it
 was a small lute.
 
 The safest thing to say is that there is no surviving Italian repertoire
 for the 4-course guitar.
 
 Monica
 
 
 - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson
 hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:28 AM
 Subject: [LUTE] 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
 
 
 
  Dear Monica,
 
  You write 'There('s) no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was
  played in Italy'  and, of course, you're quite right.
 
  But it was played in Spain, then a major influence in all Hapsburg
  lands and in some Italian states as well as Naples. So I don't see it
  being played in the leading 

[LUTE] Wurstisen

[Andreas Schlegel]

Hello all,

Finally it's done: The whole Wurstisen book (CH-Bu F IX 70) is available online:
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Quellen_CH/Quellen_CH.html
Scroll to 
Ms. F IX 70
Vom Basler Emanuel Wurstisen zwischen 1591 und 1594 in deutscher Tabulatur 
notiert; für 6-, 7-, 8- und 9-chörige Laute.
Online-Faksimile ist in Vorbereitung. Dieses sehr umfangreiche Manuskript ist 
in 8 Bücher eingeteilt. Aufgrund des Umfangs und der Dateigrössen stehen die 
Online-Faksimiles ebenfalls in den 8 Büchern bereit. Jedem Band ist das 
Inventar und das Register des ganzen Manuskripts beigegeben. Konkordanzen 
werden im Kommentarband veröffentlicht.
1 Praeambeln (25 MB)
2 Motetten (16,5 MB)
3 Fantasien (22,2 MB)
4 Madrigale (45,7 MB)
5 Passamezzi (102,4 MB)
6 Tänze (61,4 MB)
7 Galliarden, Chipassen etc. (25,9 MB)
8 Geistliche Lieder und Psalmen (27,1 MB)
Der Kommentar ist in Vorbereitung.

Enjoy!

Andreas
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[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?

[Andreas Schlegel]

The lexicon, dated 1715, is available with this link:
http://diglib.hab.de/wdb.php?dir=drucke/ae-12

Andreas


Am 29.11.2012 um 23:39 schrieb Stephan Olbertz:

 How about Zedler?
 The 64 volumes were published between 1732 and 1754, vol. 33 describing 
 interesting things on the topic of saite, like the process of 
 manufacturing, different colours and materials. No loading, I'm afraid, but 
 overspuns, though they seem to serve as a kind of jewelery thread...
 http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~zedler/zedler2007/index.html
 Anyway, I seem to remember Tim Crawford citing in Bremen recently an article 
 in an encyclopedia for ladies, explaning a lute to be strung with gut strings 
 overspun with silver (Leipzig? first half of 18th cent.?).
 
 Regards
 
 Stephan
 
 Am 29.11.2012, 16:10 Uhr, schrieb R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de:
 
 On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:04:48 +0100, Markus Lutz wrote
 Hi Shaun, Hi Martyn,
 unfortunately I cannot say too much on this topic, at least for the
 17th century.
 
 [...]
 Another important source, though late, on all topics of life is
 Krünitz, Oeconomische Encyclopädie. Probably it also depends on the
 encyclopedy of Diderot and on other encyclopedys, for sure at least
 some things will have been copied.
 
 It has 242 volumes and describes many things very detailed.
 He has big articles on the lute and on strings
 
 Krünitz,
 Artikel Laute (lute, vol. 66, p. 380ff, 1795)
 
 But this is rather late as a source for information on 17th century
 lute practice (or even for the first half of the 18th century).
 There have been two changes in lute building during that time:
 first, the extension of the bass range by adding a second pegbox
 (swank neck lutes) and then the change to bass rider style lutes
 during the 18th century (the later could well be a in response
 to a wider availability of overspun bass strings).
 
 [...]
 
 Artikel Saiten (strings, Vol. 130, p.  1822)
 Man färbt die Saiten auch blau und roth; blau, indem man sie durch
 eine kalte Brühe von Lackmus mit Potasche, roth, indem man sie durch
 den Auszug der türkischen Schminklappen und Potasche durchzieht.
 Sowohl die gefärbten, als die weißen Saiten werden nachher
 geschleimt, weil der Schleim den Ton stumpf macht. Die blaugefärbten
 Saiten nehmen im Schwefeln eine rothe Farbe an.
 
 (Here he describes in detail how strings are made, the short part
 tells how the strings had been colored blue with litmus and potash,
 and red with turkish paint cloth (?Schminklappen?) and potash).
 
 Schminklappen are coloured/dyed pieces of cloth that were used to give
 to give the skin a redish teint. The cloth (or paper - Schmikpaier) was
 made wet (humid) and rubbed over the face.
 Turkish might give a hint at the colour used: probaly turkish Krapplack
 (Rubia tinctorum, eng. dyer's madder), a widely used colour until the
 19th century.
 
 Krünitz is very late, but he sums up everything from the 16th to the
 18th century. In his article on the lute he mentions beside others
 Besard, Baron, Weiss etc.
 
 Yes, so utterly unuseable as a source for when things fist show up ;-)
 
 Cheers, Ralf Mattes
 
 --
 R. Mattes -
 Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
 r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
 
 
 
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 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 -- 
 Viele Grüße
 Best regards
 
 Stephan Olbertz
 
 

[LUTE] Hainhofer online

[Andreas Schlegel]

I just received a message via John Robinson from Arthur Ness, that the 
Hainhofer manuscripts are available online:
http://diglib.hab.de/wdb.php?dir=mss%2F18-7-aug-2fpointer=0

http://diglib.hab.de/wdb.php?dir=mss%2F18-8-aug-2fpointer=0

Enjoy!

The book of Joachim Lüdtke on the Hainhofer lute books is available online, too:
http://digi20.digitale-sammlungen.de/de/fontsize.1/object/display/bsb00046906_1.html?subjectSWD_f=%7BHainhofer%2C+Philipp%7Dqt=dismaxhl=falsevalueA=Englischmode=comfort

or VERY cheap on paper at:
http://digi20.digitale-sammlungen.de/de/fontsize.1/object/display/bsb00046906_1.html?subjectSWD_f=%7BHainhofer%2C+Philipp%7Dqt=dismaxhl=falsevalueA=Englischmode=comfort


Andreas
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[LUTE] Some lute pictures

[Andreas Schlegel]

https://www.karlundfaber.de/de/kataloge/online-katalog/index.php?id872
https://www.karlundfaber.de/de/kataloge/online-katalog/index.php?id875
https://www.karlundfaber.de/de/kataloge/online-katalog/index.php?id896

Enjoy!

Andreas
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[LUTE] Links for some lute pictures again

[Andreas Schlegel]

Sorry - the last numbers were killed ;-)

https://www.karlundfaber.de/de/kataloge/online-katalog/index.php?id=13896
https://www.karlundfaber.de/de/kataloge/online-katalog/index.php?id=13875
https://www.karlundfaber.de/de/kataloge/online-katalog/index.php?id=13896

Andreas



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[LUTE] Re: instrumental air de cours

[Andreas Schlegel]

Here's the link to the PDF-link. The commentary is made by François-Pierre Goy 
and me - it's not only from me... And the concordance table is only made by 
François-Pierre Goy!
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/B-Bc_FA_VI_10/B-Bc_FA_VI_10.html

Enjoy!

Andreas

Am 03.09.2012 um 09:53 schrieb wi...@cs.helsinki.fi:

 
 Hi
 
 In B-Bc5616 FA-VI-10 there is the Ma raison est donc la maitresse, an 
 arrangement of song by Etienne Mouline. And you can find the fantastic 
 commented and analyzed facsimile of all the ms. by Andreas Schlegel on-line! 
 For the moment I don't remember the address, but it should be found by 
 googling.
 
 I think I have seen also other arrs in some other mss...
 
 Best,
 
 Arto
 
 
 On 03/09/12 06:15, MAGDALENA TOMSINSKA wrote:
Very nice arrangement and playing, David! Thank you.
 
Do you know about any air de cour arranged already in 17th century? I
know just one: Ballet pour Madame by Guedron, 1613, in lute
arrangements known as Est-ce Mars/ French Tune.
 
Magdalena
 
From: Rockford Mjos rm...@comcast.net
To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com
Cc: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 5:49:15 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: instrumental air de cours
Lovely, David! Thank you, also, for sharing your arrangement.
I recently came across the CD Tabarinades by Les Boreades, which
has two airs de cour played as solos by Sylvain Bergeron:
Si jamais mon ame, and Objet dont les charmes si doux.
Somewhat relatedly, Bergeron has also recorded for songs by Giulio
Caccini arranged for baroque guitar on Francesca Caccini: O viva
rosa by Shannon Mercer.
-- R
On Aug 30, 2012, at 5:52 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:
 For a cd recording I made earlier this year, I needed an instrumental
 version of the beautiful air de cour Cessez mortels de souspirer by
 Pierre Guedron. I am sure I am not the only one who makes such
 arrangements, but still I'd like to share the result with you, as I
 think these arrangements make attractive pieces to play.

 I've just recorded and uploaded my home version with no singer in
 sight:
 [1]http://youtu.be/a5pq9xEpueI

 If you want to have a go yourself, I've uploaded the pdf to the Sheet
 music section of my website.

 enjoy!

 David

 PS: Yes, it's a kabuki hairstyle peeping up from behind the lute. ;-)

 --
 ***
 David van Ooijen
 [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 www.davidvanooijen.nl
 ***



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--
 
 References
 
1. http://youtu.be/a5pq9xEpueI
2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: ms Xlb 210 (St Luc)

[Andreas Schlegel]

There is an edition who could help:

http://d-nb.info/1009925687/about/html

All the best,

Andreas

Am 21.06.2012 um 17:04 schrieb Peter Steur:

 
 --Boundary-00=_X73ZSDFE24L0
 Content-Type: Text/Plain;
  charset=utf-8
 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 Dear collected wisdom,
 
 at the moment I'm still heavily involved in supplying incipits to all the
 manuscripts listed on my website http://mss.slweiss.de. Now I would like to
 add them also the ms Xlb 210 (Prague) containing a large part of St Luc's
 works. Unfortunately, the quality of the copy in my possession is very poor,
 just enough to list the titles and guess the key of the various pieces, but
 not for reliable reading for the incipits. Does any of you have a recent
 copy of good quality that he would like to share?
 
 Many thanks in advance!
 
 Peter
 
  
 Peter P.M. Steur
 Torino
 Italy
 
 Tel +39 011 3919 740 (or 731 or 732)
 Fax +39 011 3919 747
 Email: p.st...@inrim.it
 Website: www.inrim.it
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 DIV id=INCREDI_TEXT_AREA style=PADDING-LEFT: 2px
 DIVDear collected wisdom,/DIV
 DIVnbsp;/DIV
 DIVat the moment I'm still heavily involved in supplying incipits to all 
 the manuscripts listed on my website A 
 href=http://mss.slweiss.de;http://mss.slweiss.de/A. Now I would like to 
 add them also the ms Xlb 210 (Prague)nbsp;containing a large part of St 
 Luc's works. Unfortunately, the quality of the copy in my possession is very 
 poor, just enough to list the titles and guess the key of the various pieces, 
 but not for reliable reading for the incipits. Does any of you have a recent 
 copy of good quality that he would like to share?/DIV
 DIV id=INCREDISIGNATUREID ondrag=return false;
 DIVnbsp;/DIV
 DIVMany thanks in advance!/DIV
 DIVnbsp;/DIV
 DIVPeter/DIV
 DIVnbsp;/DIV 
 DIV style=FONT-FAMILY: Times New RomanPeter P.M. Steur/DIV
 DIV style=FONT-FAMILY: Times New RomanTorino/DIV
 DIV style=FONT-FAMILY: Times New RomanItaly/DIV
 DIV style=FONT-FAMILY: Times New Romannbsp;/DIV
 DIV style=FONT-FAMILY: Times New RomanTel +39 011 3919 740 (or 731 or 
 732)/DIV
 DIV style=FONT-FAMILY: Times New RomanFax +39 011 3919 747/DIV
 DIV style=FONT-FAMILY: Times New RomanEmail: A 
 href=mailto:p.st...@inrim.it;p.st...@inrim.it/A/DIV
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[LUTE] Re: Kremberg posted

[Andreas Schlegel]

Thanks for the link!

It's interesting: There's a second edition (without place) 1696 - but without 
the copperplate printings (now in D-SWl) and a third edition only with the 
copperplates from Mainz 1709 (one is in D-B)!

Andreas




Am 12.06.2012 um 21:35 schrieb Rockford Mjos:

 I have just seen that a scan of Kremberg's Musicalische Gemüths- 
 Ergötzung (1689) has been posted on the IMSLP.
 
 http://imslp.org/wiki/Musicalische_Gemüths-Ergötzung,_oder_Arien_ 
 (Kremberg,_Jakob)#IMSLP232519
 
 This new scan is much clearer than the microfilm I was working from  
 for my (mostly guitar) edition! I have yet to check the scan against  
 my interpretation of that blurry microfilm image.
 
 http://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/RockyMjos
 
 -- R
 
 
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[LUTE] Re: Calatas

[Andreas Schlegel]

Have a look in the SMT index:
http://w1.bnu.fr/smt/index.htm
Calata, A-Wn 18688, 10 25 27; D-Ngm 33748 II, 8; F-Pn Rés. Vmd ms. 27, 107; 
F-Pn Rés. Vmf ms. 50, 6 20 24; PL-WRk 352, 47

Hispanische C., PL-Kj 40154, 29


Andreas


Am 01.06.2012 um 17:04 schrieb Rockford Mjos:

 I believe there is also a Calata in the Thibault Ms.
 
 -- R
 
 
 
 On Jun 1, 2012, at 6:28 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
 
 That is useful, but are there any later example from the end of the 16th 
 century?
 
 MOnica
 
 - Original Message - From: A. J. Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net
 To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 10:32 PM
 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Calatas
 
 
 Marco dall'Aquila #24 (D'una cosa spagnuola)/Francesco #45 (Ricercar) has
 the calata cantus firmus running though it. It's so early perhaps it's a 
 basse danse. See
 
 http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/marcodallaquila/lapptr.html
 
 The piece is probably by Marco, since even the Francesco version has the
 Marco Motive.
 
 - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 12:34 PM
 Subject: [LUTE] Calatas
 
 
  Montesardo and Costanza include pieces with the title Calata.
  Montesardo's seems to be in common time and just repeats the formula
  I   IV   V.  Costanza's is actually described as di Fiorenza and is
  6/4 time and has a rather odd harmonic scheme - it starts in a major
  key and ends in a minor key.  Millioni (1627) also has a Calata in D
  major and 3/4 time.
 
 
 
  According to my rather out of date Harvard dictionary the Calata is a
  16th century dance and Dalza is the only source of examples.
 
 
 
  Does anyone know of any other sources of Calatas in the intervening
  period.   It seems strange that it should suddenly have resurfaced
  after such a long period.
 
 
 
  regards
 
 
 
  Monica
 
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Arpeggio question

[Andreas Schlegel]

Hello,

The papers of Charlie (Karl-Ernst Schröder) are:
http://www.rimab.ch/content/bibliographie/SCB-Bib-2002-01-454

and:
Generalbass-Aussetzungen für Laute zu Arien aus Johann Adolf Hasses Oper 
Cleofilde, in Basler Jahrbuch für historische Musikpraxis XIX 1995, S. 159-187

All the best,

Andreas


Am 17.05.2012 um 13:45 schrieb Christopher Wilke:

Bernd,
   This is a tricky thing. Usually, I try to find a pattern written
   out in some other lute solo. Karl-Ernst Schroeder did a very good
   survey of the ones found in Weiss sonatas. (I don't remember the source
   off the top of my head.) I find a strict pattern to be uninteresting,
   however, and so I occasionally vary the base pattern for effect when
   the progression is interesting or when there's an especially dissonant
   chord. I usually keep a consistent number of notes in each chord. Who
   knows if this is really correct? Many times the arpeggio sections are
   unmeasured and the very fact that a pattern was not specified on the
   page may imply that a more rhapsodic and personally idiosyncratic
   approach was intended.
For progressions in which the number of notes varies, you could
   always make a patchwork of patterns utilizing each grouping from
   various existing solos, such as Schroeder compiled. Or you could follow
   your own muse and see where it takes you.
   Chris
   Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
   Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
   www.christopherwilke.com
   --- On Thu, 5/17/12, Bernd Haegemann b...@symbol4.de wrote:
 
 From: Bernd Haegemann b...@symbol4.de
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Arpeggio question
 To:
 Cc: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List l...@cs.dartmouth.edu, baroque
 Lutelist baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 5:17 AM
 
   Dear all,
   sometimes we find in baroque lute music chains of chords, notated
   evenly as it seems and with the mark arpeggio or arp.
   Now, if the chain looked like this (with n being the number of notes in
   the chord)
   4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
   or
   5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5
   one would think of some arpeggio scheme to use it in such a passage.
   But what the number of notes in the chords looks like this
   5 5 5 5 5 5 3 3 3 2 3 3 4 6 6 5 4 4 4
   or so?
   What would you do?
   Thank you for your hints!
   best regards
   Bernd
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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 References
 
   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Beyer, Johann C.: Herrn Professor Gellerts Oden, Lieder und Fabeln

[Andreas Schlegel]

Have a look:

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0007/bsb00072047/images/

Enjoy!

Andreas



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[LUTE] Re: _Bach's_Lute_Suites:_This_Myth_is_Busted

[Andreas Schlegel]

Only very short: It seems that the family of Losy (Loschi, Lossio) was a 
protestant family from Italy who has to flee from Italy to the region Veltlin 
(exactly Piuro or older: Plurs) who was then under the leadership of the Drei 
Bünde (today Kanton Graubünden). The Drei Bünde were in these times not 
member of the old Swiss Eidgenossenschaft - they were only a zugewandter Ort 
(a mutual-defense region independent of Switzerland). The rockslide of Plurs in 
1618 is well known.
see: http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/textes/d/D7071.php
and the map
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Geschichte_Graubuenden.pngfiletimestamp=20100704044104

Andreas

Am 30.04.2012 um 18:14 schrieb Roman Turovsky:

 What Vogl doesn't mention is an interesting side-detail: Losy's original 
 hometown fell victim of a catastrophic landslide that buried most of it, and 
 that's how Losys ended up in Bohemia.
 RT
 
 
 
 - Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier 
 jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:51 AM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: _Bach's_Lute_Suites:_This_Myth_is_Busted
 
 
 Everything you need to know about Losy here :
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/publications/J/1980/Vogl-LosyPragueLutenist.pdf
 
 Best,
 
 Jean-Marie
 
 =
 
 == En réponse au message du 30-04-2012, 17:15:42 ==
 
 He was actually ethnically Swiss.
 RT
 
 From: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com
 Losy was Czech.
 
 At 09:32 AM 4/30/2012, Roman Turovsky wrote:
 How much German music for baroque guitar do you know?
 3 things come to mind, Kremberg, Diesel and Losy.
 RT
 
 
 
 Edward Martin
 2817 East 2nd Street
 Duluth, Minnesota  55812
 e-mail:  e...@gamutstrings.com
 voice:  (218) 728-1202
 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name
 http://www.myspace.com/edslute
 http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
 
 
 
 
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[LUTE] Re: 4060

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear lute netters,

That's the famous manuscript of the Singakademie who came back from Kiew in the 
year 2000. I bought a microfiche and in February I was in Berlin, made the 
physical description and took photos of the watermarks etc. - and they didn't 
told me that they will publish the PDF...

But anyway: That's a great gift! A big thank you to the library and to Rainer 
who shared the link!

François-Pierre Goy and Tim Crawford are working on this very important source. 
François-Pierre Goy wrote an article and a whole inventory - but I don't know 
where it will be published. I will ask him when he's back from his holiday.

Enjoy the source!

Andreas

Am 25.04.2012 um 21:07 schrieb Rainer:

 Dear lute netters,
 
 I have no idea if this is new:
 
 MS 4060 (750 pages) is on-line.
 
 See
 
   http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3
 
 Rainer adS
 
 
 
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: La belle homicide

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear Edgar,

A very important fact for the interpretation of the Rhétorique des Dieux is: 
Indeed Denis Gaultier is the target of the foreword, but nothing speaks for his 
contribution at least for the first steps in the execution of the manuscript's 
plan and in the entries of Notator A. I'm still working on the edition of all 
33 known pieces written by Notator B of the Rhétorique (in 6 sources) and it's 
a very, very tricky puzzle. We can not exclude with certitude, that Notator B 
could perhaps be Denis Gaultier himself, but my personal opinion is that this 
is very hardly possible.
So the short form Denis Gaultier's Rhétorique is simply wrong. We don't know 
his role - if he really had once a role in the genesis of this manuscript at 
all!

About the 27 texts under the pieces: 
François-Pierre Goy wrote an important article: Antiquité et musique pour luth 
au XVIle siècle : les sources de l‘iconographie et des arguments de la 
„Rhétorique des Dieux“, in: Bulletin de l‘association Guillaume Budé, 3 
(octobre) 1995, p. 263-276 

So at least 13 texts come from contemporary editions and summaries of antique 
poetry (Ovid's Metamorphose, Odes from Horaz, Plutarch or  Cléopatre from 
Gautier Coste de la Calprenède respectively, and eventually from Homer's 
Odysse).
It's unclear who could be the author of the texts. There's one advice in 
direction of Harault (one of the sonetts was made from Harault) because of the 
use of the notation Appolon instead of the normal Apollon. 

There are only a few pieces who are titled in other sources in the same way as 
in the Rhétorique - and some have other titles:
Cléoparte amante = Courante de Gautier pour la Reine de Suede in F-Pn Rés. 823
Artémise = C. G sur lentree de la reine de suede dans Paris in A-ETgoëss II
Andromède = Tombeau de Blancrocher in CZ-Nlobkowitz II.Kk.80, F-Pn Rés. Vmb 
ms. 7, GB-Ob Ms. Mus. Sch. G 617 and = Lais larme de Gauttier in PL-Kj Mus. 
ms. 40626
Narcisse = La belle ténébreuse in D-LEm Ms. II.6.24, F-Pn Rés. 823, Perrine 
Pièces de Luth; = La ténébreuse in F-B Ms. 279.153 and F-Pn Rés. Vmb ms. 7

So we have to be very carefully in the interpretation of these titles and texts 
from the Rhétorique.

All the best,

Andreas

Am 10.03.2012 um 11:15 schrieb Edgar Aichinger:

 From the booklet of Lislevand's CD La belle homicide:
 
 The homicide in question is indeed a very sweet one. We recall the 
 words from a Dowland song: to see/to touch/to kiss/to die.
 This Grace procures the metaphorical death of the late Renaissance: 
 the sublime ecstasy of physical love. In Gaultier's Rhetorique des 
 Dieux, he adds the following text under the tablature of the 
 L'homicide:
 
 (just english translation)
 This Fair Lady, by her charms, brings death to all that see or hear 
 her. But that Death is unlike ordinary deaths in that it is the 
 beginning of life, instead of marking its end.
 
 Edgar
 
 Am Samstag, 10. März 2012, 08:04:17 schrieb William Samson:
   It's a great piece of music.  Do you know the date of the
 earliest version?
 
   Does that translate as The Beautiful Murder?  I wonder why?
 
   Bill
   From: Arto Wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
   To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Friday, 9 March 2012, 20:31
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] La belle homicide
   Dear baroque lutenists,
   La belle homicide is really very strange, very special and
 especially very great piece! The music and also the name! And they
 knew that - of course - already in the 17th century: There are at
 least about 40 versions/copies of this piece in different
 manuscripts! I just made my first try using the ms.  Barbe version:
 [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX4riaTkTP4feature=youtu.be
   Perhaps more versions to come?
   And yes, I really do know that my playing is not perfect at
 all... But the piece is great! I love it! :)
   Best,
   Arto
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
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 References
 
   1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX4riaTkTP4feature=youtu.be
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 


--

[LUTE] Re: tuning software?

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear David,

For Mac:

Strobe tuner

Copyright © 2005-2007 Katsura Shareware.

It works on Mac OSX 10.6.8.

And as an iPhone applet: Cleartune.

All the best,

Andreas

PS: Time Machine for Mac is a clever solution for backups ;-)



Am 29.01.2012 um 17:41 schrieb David van Ooijen:

 It has come up, and I even had something installed on my computer
 once, but I lost all. Does anybody use tuning software for Windows
 and/or Mac, and if so, any feedback on the software used?
 
 David
 
 -- 
 ***
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 davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 www.davidvanooijen.nl
 ***
 
 
 
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[LUTE] Re: Gaultier recording

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear Ed and Lex,

The Rhétorique has a rather complicate story. In short:
- The Rhétorique is a manuscript on vellum. There are no printed things in it - 
the pictures are painted as washed ink drawings (German: lavierte 
Tuschzeichnung).
- There was a concept who included painters, goldsmiths, men of letters, 
calligraphs and at least one musician (Denis Gaultier).
- The concept was not successfully and completely executed. The whole book is 
prepared for the tablature entries - but nearly half of the book doesn't 
contain music. One paper sheet with an Accord (but not an accord in the 
helpful way to tune the basses) was always inserted between the drawing and the 
first prepared tablature sheet.
- The musical entries of Notator A and B (we have to distinguish between the 
text scribes and the musical notators) can not be taken as primary source or 
autographs from Denis Gaultier.

Some thoughts I published in 1987 (very old and now partially revised) are here 
in an English translation:
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/DownloadD/files/Rhetorique_Englisch.pdf
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/DownloadD/files/Beispiele%20Rhetorique.pdf
You can compare my text with the main points given by David Buch in his 
article in the journal of the LSA...

François-Pierre Goy and me are still working on the edition of all works of 
Notator B (who worked also in B-Bc FA VI 10, D-Fschneider Ms. 12, F-Pn Rés. Vm7 
375, Ms. Pérelle, and S-Smf MMS 23). This edition who includes facsimiles of 
D-Fschneider Ms. 12 and S-Smf MMS 23 and all 33 pieces in parallel readings in 
Fronimo will finally appear in May at the Festival der Laute in Vienna.

In the next week I will see the original in Berlin to solve some riddles of the 
work process on that manuscript. 

Andreas

Am 22.01.2012 um 12:40 schrieb Lex van Sante:

 Hi Ed,
 
 The Rhétorique des Dieux was a manuscript, made in honour of Denis Gaultier.
 Hence the fancy cover. 
 At the beginning of every series of pieces in a certain mode there is a 
 picture which is supposedly an image of its mood. 
 14 pictures were made by Abraham Bosse (one of which after a design of 
 Eustache Le Sueur) one was made by Robert Nanteuil  I(also designed by Le 
 Seuer) 
 It is a source of wonder why there are no embellishments whatsoever notated 
 in the tablature. 
 A possible explanation could be that Gaultier was not involved at all with 
 the production of the manuscript.
 
 Lex
 
 Op 22 jan 2012, om 02:08 heeft Ed Durbrow het volgende geschreven:
 
  Excellent recording. I like the snappiness of your trills. I left a
  response on YT.
 
  I have a question. All those images were from the book? So it was a
  published book, right? But the cover of that book was just too
  beautiful. Surely they didn't sell the books with covers like that. Was
  this a common practice to have a custom binding or cover made for a
  published book? Does that read AA, AOA, HH HOH or what? Do we know who
  owned that copy? Gee, I guess that was more than 'a' question. :-)
 
  TIA
 
  On Jan 21, 2012, at 4:50 PM, hera caius wrote:
 
 I have uploaded two very famous pieces by Denis Gaultier on
  youtube.
Home recording.
If anyone interested:
[1][1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt10ZL7Xjog
Caius
--
  References
1. [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt10ZL7Xjog
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
  Ed Durbrow
  Saitama, Japan
  [4]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
  [5]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
  [6]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
 
  --
 
 References
 
  1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt10ZL7Xjog
  2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt10ZL7Xjog
  3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  4. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
  5. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
  6. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: accords nouveaux

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear Lex,

Have a look on 
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Abhandlung/Quellen/Quellen.html

You will find there facsimiles of CH-Bu F.IX.53 and CH-BEa 123.

And many informations on the Accords nouveaux including the very important 
maitrise of François-Pierre Goy. The site is at moment only in German and 
partially in French.

Enjoy!

Andreas

Am 30.11.2011 um 10:04 schrieb Lex van Sante:

 Hello all,
 
 I've recently fallen in love (again) with the repertoire for lute tuned in 
 transitional tunings. 
 I already have all the CNRS books and Board and Pickering but manuscripts  
 like panmure#5, panmure#8, Bâle 53, Manuscript C.N.R.S, Ballard 1631 and 1638 
 for instance are high on my wishlist. 
 Anybody have any idea where to look on the net?
 
 Many thanx in advance,
 
 Cheers,Lex
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: looking for 16th/17th century melodies

[Andreas Schlegel]

Dear David,

 
 The French one ' Mes pleurs se sont changés en ris' could be an air de
 cour, as Hooft took many of his melodies from the Bataille editions.
 Someone specialised in French 16th/17th songs any idea?

At least there's no such title in the known Ballard prints. I had a look to 
Laurent Guillo: Pierre I Ballard et Robert III Ballard. Imprimeurs du roy pour 
la musique (1599-1673), 2 vol., Sprimont : Mardaga 2003. This is the standard 
bibliography for this topic.

All the best,

Andreas

 
 David
 
 David
 
 On 10 November 2011 21:27, adS rainer.aus-dem-spr...@gmx.de wrote:
 Have a look at
 
 www.liederenbank.nl
 
 Rainer adS
 
 
 On 10.11.2011 18:35, David van Ooijen wrote:
 
 Dear collected wisdom
 
 I am looking for 16th or early 17th century melodies with the following
 titles:
 
 - Een zaterdagje na de noene
 
 - Essex leijdt
 
 - O schoonste schoonheid wreed
 
 - Mes pleurs se sont changés en ris
 
 These four titles are used for four poems by Dutch poet P. C. Hooft
 (1581-1647) as indications for melodies on which the poems shouod be
 sung.
 Any help, hints, suggestionsc. appreciated.
 
 David
 
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 
 -- 
 ***
 David van Ooijen
 davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 www.davidvanooijen.nl
 ***
 
 


--

[LUTE] Re: John Danyel

[Andreas Schlegel]

This tuning used by Danyel is in the Traficante system fefhc / dcf - in frets 
from the highest to the lowest course 5 4 5 7 2 / 3 2 5.

An interesting point is always 
- the ambitus from the lowest to the highest course: here 33 semitones
- the ambitus from the 6th to the 1st course: here 23 semitones
- the ambitus from 6th to the lowest course: here 10 semitones

Compared with the 
10c lute VT (ffeff / cbcc): 31 / 24 / 7
11c lute NAO (dfedf / ccbcc): 29 / 20 / 9
13c lute NAO (dfedf / ccbccbc): 32 / 20 / 12 - only 1 semitone more than a 
10-course lute!!! And the bass rider normally extends the string length around 
one fret...
14c Archlute (ffeff / cbccbccc): 38 / 24 / 14

So the ambitus from the 6th to the 1st course is only 1 semitone smaller - and 
the lowest course is only 1 semitone lower than a lowered 10th course to Bb (if 
I think in g).
Let us assume to think the 1st string in g', the courses are in 
g’ d’ bb f Bb Ab / F Eb Bb (compared to the normal tuning of g’ d’ a f c G / 
F D C)
If we let the 1st course in tune, 
the 2nd is ok,
the 3rd has to be changed + 1 semitone
the 4th is ok,
the 5th has to be changed - 2 semitones
the 6th has to be changed + 1 semitone
the 7th is ok,
the 8th has to be changed - 1 semitone
the 9th has to be changed - 2 semitones

So we see - as normally if you take the tunings of the same 10-15 years - that 
the change is not really very big: only 2 semitones down or 1 semitone up! 

I think that the gaps of the string diameters were not as fine as today (we 
have gaps from 0.02, 0.03 or 0.04 mm today!!!). So this very, very fine feeling 
for a little bit different tension could be a modern phenomen. I think these 
different tunings like Danyel's or the different accords nouveaux used in one 
decade seem to be very well possible with the old strings - and if we play 
today with good gut, also in the basses. 

And I think it's the pragmatic way: The 1st course is more or less as high as 
possible (at least at the beginning of the 17th century) - so the lower 
courses have to be tuned to other than the normal tone. And: The tuning pitch 
at least for solo lute music is IMO a modern phenomen. So the Traficante-system 
who is a relative one is the more convincing system for me than absolute note 
names.

Andreas

Am 25.10.2011 um 18:28 schrieb Daniel Winheld:

 I vote for the sensible compromise-  g stays g (easy!) and a low Bb. B 
 flat was used by other lute composers- see some of Nicolas Vallet's pieces- 
 he has the 10th course CC scoradature'd down to low Bb in at least three 
 pieces in his Secret des Muses. He also wrote for 9 course lute, so a low C 
 on the 9th could obviously go down. Pushing the envelope has always been the 
 norm; and when one end of the envelope is already at the tearing point  it's 
 the other end that has to give. Is this the John Danyel piece  Mrs Anne 
 Grene her leaves bee greene based on the song The Leaves be Greene? 
 
 There is an English Lute Society edition of Danyel's complete lute works, and 
 that one is printed as per the original and re-intabulated (if that is the 
 right term) by Martin Shepherd into standard tuning. Works very well that 
 way- but I haven't had the courage to re-tune my archlute (no 9 or 10 course 
 lutes in the house) to try the original. The editor's opinion is that the 
 actual pitches go 1/2 step lower than the sensible compromise i.e., f# 1st 
 and AA 9th.
 
 Dan
 
 On Oct 25, 2011, at 4:21 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote:
 
 Dear Everybody,
 
 not sure if this has been discussed before, as the archives are unavailable 
 currently. In John Danyels 1606 publication, there is a piece on the last 
 pages (22-3) with a special lute tuning. It is a solo piece (variations on 
 Greensleeves), and Danyel gives a chart with the intervals, but no pitches.
 
 Translated into pitch, the tuning would possibly be:
 
 1. B4 - F#4 - D4 - A3 - D3 - C3 | A2 - G2 - D2
 Or
 2. E4 - B3 - G3 - D3 - G2 - F2 | D2 - C2 - G1
 Or
 3. D4 - A3 - F3 - C3 - F2 - Eb2 | C2 - Bb1 - F1
 
 The first line is based on the lowest bass string on lutes at the time (C2). 
 In that case, the 1st course would be higher (and thinner) than gut strings 
 can be made for a G-lute with VSL of about 58-63 cm.
 
 The 2nd and 3rd lines are based on the lowest bass strings for the 
 chitarrone or the archlute. In that case, the 1st course has the pitch of a 
 tenor lute. Played with the 1st course as B4, the variations on Greensleeves 
 would be in C-major, and played with the 1st course as E4, the variations 
 would be in F-major.
 
 Of course, one might argue that somewhere in the middle is a sensible 
 compromise, i. e. 1st course G4 with the 9th course Bb1. That way, however, 
 Danyel's Greensleeves would be in A-flat-major. A bit awkward for 1606 IMO.
 
 My questions are: 
 
 1. Is there evidence of very small 9c lutes (about 50 cm VSL) in Britain 
 around 1600? (First line of tuning)
 
 2. Is there evidence of theorboed 9c lutes (not to speak of Britain