[LUTE] Re: Big Fret Help
Well, you could move down all frets towards the nut - this should give you room to adjust the neck to whatever is needed from the 2nd fret up. Then put all frets in place except the first and finish on this first position. Best, Michael On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 18:08 -0700, sterling price wrote: Hi- There was no problem when this lute had just -slightly- smaller frets. I was hoping there would be some remedy I could do without putting new frets on as they are quite expensive at this size. I tried loosening a fret and working it a bit to soften the edge but it wasn't successful. I might try a few other things though. As RE the high action of this lute, I have the same plan that I think Larry K Brown worked from (its the J.J Edlinger 1732 13 course). Anyway, the neck angle and enormous belly scoop/dish shown on the plan result in a high action. I realize that this feature need not be utilized in the copy lute though. --Sterling __ From: Michael Vollbrecht mollbre...@gmail.com To: sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 3:22 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Big Fret Help Had the same problem recently, moving from .80 to .95 frets and in my case the remedy consisted of two things: First, I had to reform the fingerboard a little bit with a scraper so as to get it a little bit curved (it was actually curved the wrong way from the 4th fret up...). This might not be necessary in your case, just check with a metal ruler. Then you need a VERY smooth round fingerboard edge - if the radious is too smaall the fret is lifted up from the board: a bit more scraping and finishing touch with some sanding did it for me. If your lute neck is veneered (like mine) however, be careful when rounding the edge - you can easily work through this thin layer... In addition to all this, I wrapped the fret gut a couple of times around a long needle nose plier, mostly the part for the knot and where the edgdes would come: this makes the gut much more flexible, the knot is easier to tie and the gut follows the edge much more smoothly. Hope this helps! Michael On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:29 -0700, sterling price wrote: Hi all-- I recently changed the frets on my baroque lute (after many years of service). I went up from 1.10 mm to 1.20 mm on all frets. The problem I am having is there are a few frets that are not sitting all the way flat under the first course so it has a 'choked' sound on some notes. I know this wouldn't happen if the fingerboard was more curved or if I used smaller frets(not an option). Any advice on how to get these big frets to stay flat would be great. And yes they are very tight. Thanks, Sterling -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Big Fret Help
Hi Sterling, I just went through the exact problem as you w/ the first fret not 'lying down' about a month ago. I was also hoping on a piece of advice that wouldn't lead to removing and more carefully retying one. Yes, they are expensive at that diameter. Forgive me for watching and waiting for what other, more experienced players chimed in with. It's interesting that it will fold nicely at one point but if the fret gets rotated where that fold moves toward the string it won't lie down again. The possible lesson here is to not let that happen as we tie it. Cold comfort, I know. I found a way to keep pressure on that one raised area (after breathing warmly on it for a few minutes) over a few nights and it did eventually drop to an acceptable height. Btw, this occurs on a 6c w/ fairly low action (MHaycock). I did raise the nut w/ a few paper shims to accomodate the tastino and where MH originally spec'd 1.0mm for the 1st fret, I now use 1.15. I've tried to keep records lately to make refretting go easier but it's still the one operation that will enevitably take all afternoon and more fret gut than I'd like to use. Sean On Jul 16, 2013, at 6:08 PM, sterling price wrote: Hi- There was no problem when this lute had just -slightly- smaller frets. I was hoping there would be some remedy I could do without putting new frets on as they are quite expensive at this size. I tried loosening a fret and working it a bit to soften the edge but it wasn't successful. I might try a few other things though. As RE the high action of this lute, I have the same plan that I think Larry K Brown worked from (its the J.J Edlinger 1732 13 course). Anyway, the neck angle and enormous belly scoop/dish shown on the plan result in a high action. I realize that this feature need not be utilized in the copy lute though. --Sterling __ From: Michael Vollbrecht mollbre...@gmail.com To: sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 3:22 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Big Fret Help Had the same problem recently, moving from .80 to .95 frets and in my case the remedy consisted of two things: First, I had to reform the fingerboard a little bit with a scraper so as to get it a little bit curved (it was actually curved the wrong way from the 4th fret up...). This might not be necessary in your case, just check with a metal ruler. Then you need a VERY smooth round fingerboard edge - if the radious is too smaall the fret is lifted up from the board: a bit more scraping and finishing touch with some sanding did it for me. If your lute neck is veneered (like mine) however, be careful when rounding the edge - you can easily work through this thin layer... In addition to all this, I wrapped the fret gut a couple of times around a long needle nose plier, mostly the part for the knot and where the edgdes would come: this makes the gut much more flexible, the knot is easier to tie and the gut follows the edge much more smoothly. Hope this helps! Michael On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:29 -0700, sterling price wrote: Hi all-- I recently changed the frets on my baroque lute (after many years of service). I went up from 1.10 mm to 1.20 mm on all frets. The problem I am having is there are a few frets that are not sitting all the way flat under the first course so it has a 'choked' sound on some notes. I know this wouldn't happen if the fingerboard was more curved or if I used smaller frets(not an option). Any advice on how to get these big frets to stay flat would be great. And yes they are very tight. Thanks, Sterling -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Big Fret Help
There is a quite certain way to fix this situation, but it requires some pre-thinking and preparation. A well measured amount of heat + pressure, applied to the gut frets on this kind of sharp edges, will lay them down flat, whatever the starting configuration is. The question here is to have a well measured source of heat, portable enough and flat enough, and strong enough to take a certain amount of pressure. Some sort of portable clothes iron might be just a thing. TO work out a correct technique, i would suggest to try it first on a dummy lute, - some piece of the wood repeating the shape of the lute neck, - to make sure no damage will be done to the frets and-or lute. The edge of the fret can be moistened rather generously, - this will help it to curve more to your need. But again, - i would strongly suggest to work it out away from the actual lute first, using the same kind of fret material. A temperature of about 160-170 C might be about the best, even if it will take a bit longer then 220-230. alexander r. On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 19:53:42 +0200 Michael Vollbrecht mollbre...@gmail.com wrote: Well, you could move down all frets towards the nut - this should give you room to adjust the neck to whatever is needed from the 2nd fret up. Then put all frets in place except the first and finish on this first position. Best, Michael To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Big Fret Help
I'm sitting here trying a few things, and at one point I made it worse. Its really only a problem with the 3rd fret making the 2nd fret buzz at the 1st course. I was wondering: what would be the effect of getting the fret wet? Would that do anything to tighten it at the right point? I'm usually pretty good at fiddling with frets, such as tightening old loose frets and such. Sterling __ From: Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 12:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Big Fret Help Hi Sterling, I just went through the exact problem as you w/ the first fret not 'lying down' about a month ago. I was also hoping on a piece of advice that wouldn't lead to removing and more carefully retying one. Yes, they are expensive at that diameter. Forgive me for watching and waiting for what other, more experienced players chimed in with. It's interesting that it will fold nicely at one point but if the fret gets rotated where that fold moves toward the string it won't lie down again. The possible lesson here is to not let that happen as we tie it. Cold comfort, I know. I found a way to keep pressure on that one raised area (after breathing warmly on it for a few minutes) over a few nights and it did eventually drop to an acceptable height. Btw, this occurs on a 6c w/ fairly low action (MHaycock). I did raise the nut w/ a few paper shims to accomodate the tastino and where MH originally spec'd 1.0mm for the 1st fret, I now use 1.15. I've tried to keep records lately to make refretting go easier but it's still the one operation that will enevitably take all afternoon and more fret gut than I'd like to use. Sean On Jul 16, 2013, at 6:08 PM, sterling price wrote: Hi- There was no problem when this lute had just -slightly- smaller frets. I was hoping there would be some remedy I could do without putting new frets on as they are quite expensive at this size. I tried loosening a fret and working it a bit to soften the edge but it wasn't successful. I might try a few other things though. As RE the high action of this lute, I have the same plan that I think Larry K Brown worked from (its the J.J Edlinger 1732 13 course). Anyway, the neck angle and enormous belly scoop/dish shown on the plan result in a high action. I realize that this feature need not be utilized in the copy lute though. --Sterling __ From: Michael Vollbrecht [1]mollbre...@gmail.com To: sterling price [2]spiffys84...@yahoo.com Cc: [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 3:22 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Big Fret Help Had the same problem recently, moving from .80 to .95 frets and in my case the remedy consisted of two things: First, I had to reform the fingerboard a little bit with a scraper so as to get it a little bit curved (it was actually curved the wrong way from the 4th fret up...). This might not be necessary in your case, just check with a metal ruler. Then you need a VERY smooth round fingerboard edge - if the radious is too smaall the fret is lifted up from the board: a bit more scraping and finishing touch with some sanding did it for me. If your lute neck is veneered (like mine) however, be careful when rounding the edge - you can easily work through this thin layer... In addition to all this, I wrapped the fret gut a couple of times around a long needle nose plier, mostly the part for the knot and where the edgdes would come: this makes the gut much more flexible, the knot is easier to tie and the gut follows the edge much more smoothly. Hope this helps! Michael On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:29 -0700, sterling price wrote: Hi all-- I recently changed the frets on my baroque lute (after many years of service). I went up from 1.10 mm to 1.20 mm on all frets. The problem I am having is there are a few frets that are not sitting all the way flat under the first course so it has a 'choked' sound on some notes. I know this wouldn't happen if the fingerboard was more curved or if I used smaller frets(not an option). Any advice on how to get these big frets to stay flat would be great. And yes they are very tight. Thanks, Sterling -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mollbre...@gmail.com 2. mailto:spiffys84...@yahoo.com 3. mailto:lute
[LUTE] Re: Big Fret Help
Had the same problem recently, moving from .80 to .95 frets and in my case the remedy consisted of two things: First, I had to reform the fingerboard a little bit with a scraper so as to get it a little bit curved (it was actually curved the wrong way from the 4th fret up...). This might not be necessary in your case, just check with a metal ruler. Then you need a VERY smooth round fingerboard edge - if the radious is too smaall the fret is lifted up from the board: a bit more scraping and finishing touch with some sanding did it for me. If your lute neck is veneered (like mine) however, be careful when rounding the edge - you can easily work through this thin layer... In addition to all this, I wrapped the fret gut a couple of times around a long needle nose plier, mostly the part for the knot and where the edgdes would come: this makes the gut much more flexible, the knot is easier to tie and the gut follows the edge much more smoothly. Hope this helps! Michael On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:29 -0700, sterling price wrote: Hi all-- I recently changed the frets on my baroque lute (after many years of service). I went up from 1.10 mm to 1.20 mm on all frets. The problem I am having is there are a few frets that are not sitting all the way flat under the first course so it has a 'choked' sound on some notes. I know this wouldn't happen if the fingerboard was more curved or if I used smaller frets(not an option). Any advice on how to get these big frets to stay flat would be great. And yes they are very tight. Thanks, Sterling -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Big Fret Help
Hi Sterling, Since nobody else seems to be doing so, I'll chip in here. I assume you are using gut for the frets - it's less troublesome than nylon in this respect. I wonder how sharp the edges of your fingerboard are. If they have a sharp edge, there's no 'radius' for the frets to bend around and they will tend to lift above the fingerboard near the edges. Whether this can be remedied depends on how close to the edge your top string is. If there's room, you could ask a luthier to round off the edge of the fingerboard a little - Nothing extreme - just a 1mm radius could make quite a difference. This isn't a big job but I'd not recommend trying it yourself unless you are already good with a scraper. I guess your action is a little high and that's why you want thicker frets. Raised actions can be corrected, but it's not a trivial job and could cost a bit. Good luck! Bill Samson From: sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, 15 July 2013, 23:29 Subject: [LUTE] Big Fret Help Hi all-- I recently changed the frets on my baroque lute (after many years of service). I went up from 1.10 mm to 1.20 mm on all frets. The problem I am having is there are a few frets that are not sitting all the way flat under the first course so it has a 'choked' sound on some notes. I know this wouldn't happen if the fingerboard was more curved or if I used smaller frets(not an option). Any advice on how to get these big frets to stay flat would be great. And yes they are very tight. Thanks, Sterling -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Big Fret Help
Hi- There was no problem when this lute had just -slightly- smaller frets. I was hoping there would be some remedy I could do without putting new frets on as they are quite expensive at this size. I tried loosening a fret and working it a bit to soften the edge but it wasn't successful. I might try a few other things though. As RE the high action of this lute, I have the same plan that I think Larry K Brown worked from (its the J.J Edlinger 1732 13 course). Anyway, the neck angle and enormous belly scoop/dish shown on the plan result in a high action. I realize that this feature need not be utilized in the copy lute though. --Sterling __ From: Michael Vollbrecht mollbre...@gmail.com To: sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 3:22 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Big Fret Help Had the same problem recently, moving from .80 to .95 frets and in my case the remedy consisted of two things: First, I had to reform the fingerboard a little bit with a scraper so as to get it a little bit curved (it was actually curved the wrong way from the 4th fret up...). This might not be necessary in your case, just check with a metal ruler. Then you need a VERY smooth round fingerboard edge - if the radious is too smaall the fret is lifted up from the board: a bit more scraping and finishing touch with some sanding did it for me. If your lute neck is veneered (like mine) however, be careful when rounding the edge - you can easily work through this thin layer... In addition to all this, I wrapped the fret gut a couple of times around a long needle nose plier, mostly the part for the knot and where the edgdes would come: this makes the gut much more flexible, the knot is easier to tie and the gut follows the edge much more smoothly. Hope this helps! Michael On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:29 -0700, sterling price wrote: Hi all-- I recently changed the frets on my baroque lute (after many years of service). I went up from 1.10 mm to 1.20 mm on all frets. The problem I am having is there are a few frets that are not sitting all the way flat under the first course so it has a 'choked' sound on some notes. I know this wouldn't happen if the fingerboard was more curved or if I used smaller frets(not an option). Any advice on how to get these big frets to stay flat would be great. And yes they are very tight. Thanks, Sterling -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
