[LUTE] Re: De Visee
> On May 27, 2019, at 7:02 PM, Ed Durbrow wrote: > > I visited a violin and ukelele maker here in Japan who used a plant as > sandpaper. He grew it right outside the door. Yes, he’s famous for taking wood and nearly-finished instruments and rubbing them up against that pine tree outside his door, but most luthiers find that technique inefficient. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
I visited a violin and ukelele maker here in Japan who used a plant as sandpaper. He grew it right outside the door. On May 28, 2019, at 1:29 AM, George Torres wrote: > remember > >> you that also plants exist which were used for thousands >>> of > > years to > >> polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
John and Antonio, Sorry for the late response, but with the end of the school year upon us, I hadnât the opportunity to consult my sources that led me to my comment that Sor used a nail on his thumb. I was in error abut that, but not about Sor using nails for special effect. Antonio, thanks for alerting me to that quote. Funny, if you had looked at the text just before the one you quoted in his method, you would've see the following. >From his method (1830): âComme le hautbois a un son tout-à -fait nasal, non seulement jâattaque la corde le plus près que possible du chevalet, mais je courbe mes doigts, et jâemploie le peu dâongle que jâai pour les attaquer: câest le seul cas où jâai cru pouvoir mâen servir sans inconvénient.â (21) Translation by A. Merrick: "As the hautboy has quite a nasal sound, I not only touch the strings as near as possible to the bridge but I curve my fingers and use the little nail that I possess to set them in vibration and this is the only case which I have thought myself able to employ the nail without inconvenience." (16-17) The quote "Never in my life have I heard a guitarist whose playing was, supportable if he played with the nailsâ¦â refers to exclusive nail playing, as Aguado had practiced (that is, until he met Sor, after which the former began to use only flesh for the thumb). So itâs pretty clear from the quote that Sor kept his nails very short, so as to employ the fleshy part of the fingertip in almost all of his playing. Nevertheless, based on Sorâs own words, we cannot say that he never used the nails of the right hand in playing. Cheers, Jorge > On May 9, 2019, at 12:37 AM, John Mardinly wrote: > > My suspicion would be that the nails Sor heard were just not prepared well. > > A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. > Classical Guitarist/Lutenist > >> On May 8, 2019, at 9:28 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: >> >> Sor's words: >> Never in my life have I heard a guitarist whose playing was >> supportable, if he played with the nails. The nails can produce but >> very few gradations in the quality of the sound: the piano passages can >> never be singing, nor the fortes sufficiently full. Their performance >> is, to mine, what the harpsichord was in comparison to the >> pianoforteâthe piano passages were always jingling, and, in the fortes, >> the noise of the keys predominated over the sound of the wires. It is >> necessary that the performance of Mr. Aguado should have so many >> excellent qualities as it possesses, to excuse his employment of the >> nails ; and he himself would have condemned the use of them if he had >> not attained such a degree of agility, nor found himself beyond the >> time of life in which we are able to contend against the bend of the >> fingers acquired by a long habitude. >> Best wishes, >> Antonio >>__ >> >> From: George Torres >> To: Roman Turovsky >> Cc: magnus andersson ; Martyn Hodgson >> ; Lute List ; Monica >> Hall >> Sent: Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:45 >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee >> Sor reportedly used a nail on his thumb, for special effect, after >> meeting Aguado, who did play with nails. >>> On May 8, 2019, at 10:00 AM, Roman Turovsky <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> Fernando Sor. >>> RT >>> >>> >>> On 5/8/2019 9:35 AM, magnus andersson wrote: >>>> Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo >> player who >>>> explicitly played without fingernails? >>>> >>>> [1]Skickat frÃÃà ¥n Yahoo Mail fÃÃà ¶r iPhone >>>> >>>> Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson >>>> <[2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>: >>>> >>>>Hear! hear!. >>>> >>>>And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means >> that De >>>> >>>>Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths >> start >>>> >>>>Martyn >>>> >>>>On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall >>>> >>>><[2][3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket >> - >>>> >>>>that's just another myth. The relevant source states that >>>> >>>>Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was >> given 500 >>>> >>&g
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Amen ! ;-) Jean-Marie > Le 10 mai 2019 à 21:54, Stewart McCoy a écrit : > > In discussing the plucking of strings with or without nails, I think it is > important to keep Thomas Mace, _Musick's Monument_ (1676) in mind. He was, of > course, referring to the lute, not the guitar, but I think his remarks on > page 73 are relevant for both plucked instruments: > > "But in the doing of This, take notice, that you strike not your Strings with > your Nails, as some do, who maintain it the Best way of Play, but I do not; > and for This Reason; because the Nail cannot draw so sweet a Sound from a > Lute, as the nibble end of the Flesh can do. > > I confess in a Consort, it might do well enough, where the Mellowness (which > is the most Excellent satisfaction from a Lute) is lost in the Crowd; but > Alone, I could never receive so good Content from the Nail, as from the > Flesh; However (This being my Opinion) let Others do, as seems Best to > Themselves." > > Stewart McCoy. > > -Original Message- From: Roland Hayes > Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 11:34 PM > To: Lute List > Subject: [LUTE] De Visee > > Do we think he played with nails? Lutenists did not as I understand, > but > > I have always thought his lute pieces were merely arrangements of > guitar/theorbo pieces. For those instruments we can establish the use > of nails. > > And if deVisee played guitar with nails, then he most likely played > theorbo with nails as well. Yes? Glue on nails had yet to arrive on the > scene. > > Get [1]Outlook for Android > > This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity > to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is > privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable > law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or > the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately by telephone and return the original message to us at > i...@legalaidbuffalo.org -- > > References > > 1. https://aka.ms/ghei36 > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Hi Martyn, Although not impossible, the text does not imply this. Ebert also notes: "with old folk these grow again very slowly." This does not seem to refer to a finger injury. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:09 Aan: 'Lute List' ; Lex Eisenhardt Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Well, are you referring to the report that said C couldn't play because he'd broken a nail? This might, of course, easily as well refer to a left hand nail which was broken (torn) down to the quick (ouch!) thus making playing impossible (too, too painful) or, indeed, the same thing on the right hand. Or is there some other report of which I'm unaware? regards M On Thursday, 9 May 2019, 13:53:01 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well aware of that. There is an another interesting on-line article on the nail subject, written by Gerard Rebours: [1]Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec onglesà la guitare et au luth Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: donderdag 9 mei 2019 08:49 Aan: [4]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lute List <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee That's not the point being made. Which is that, even if some theorbo players employed nails (or didn't), we cannot draw the unequivocal conclusion that the period guitar was therefore also played with nails. And, in particular, that this was the practice that De Visee generally expected and followed himself Richard Sweeney, who uses nails, gives a reasonably even-handed account from some early sources in his blog available by pasting this into your search. [6]https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ MH On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 14:35:21 BST, magnus andersson <[7]maan7...@yahoo.com> wrote: Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who explicitly played without fingernails? Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson <[8]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>: Hear! hear!. And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start Martyn On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall <[1][9]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - that's just another myth. The relevant source states that Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta]. Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform. We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails. Monica > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson <[1][2][10]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > >Dear collective wisdom, >From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around >since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, Corbetta >(who we know had >to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay his >fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de VisÃÆ Ã ©e had found >a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing their >strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini: > >"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and cleanly; In >the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, like >pearl[s]" >/Magnus > -- References 1. mailto:[11]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:[12]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu To get on or off this list see list information at [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References Visible links: 1. http://g.rebours.free.fr/6E/6.With_or_
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Dear Lex, Well, are you referring to the report that said C couldn't play because he'd broken a nail? This might, of course, easily as well refer to a left hand nail which was broken (torn) down to the quick (ouch!) thus making playing impossible (too, too painful) or, indeed, the same thing on the right hand. Or is there some other report of which I'm unaware? regards M On Thursday, 9 May 2019, 13:53:01 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well aware of that. There is an another interesting on-line article on the nail subject, written by Gerard Rebours: [1]Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec onglesà la guitare et au luth Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: donderdag 9 mei 2019 08:49 Aan: [4]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lute List <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee That's not the point being made. Which is that, even if some theorbo players employed nails (or didn't), we cannot draw the unequivocal conclusion that the period guitar was therefore also played with nails. And, in particular, that this was the practice that De Visee generally expected and followed himself Richard Sweeney, who uses nails, gives a reasonably even-handed account from some early sources in his blog available by pasting this into your search. [6]https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ MH On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 14:35:21 BST, magnus andersson <[7]maan7...@yahoo.com> wrote: Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who explicitly played without fingernails? Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson <[8]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>: Hear! hear!. And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start Martyn On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall <[1][9]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - that's just another myth. The relevant source states that Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta]. Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform. We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails. Monica > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson <[1][2][10]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > >Dear collective wisdom, >From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around >since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, Corbetta >(who we know had >to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay his >fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de VisÃà à ©e had found >a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing their >strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini: > >"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and cleanly; In >the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, like >pearl[s]" >/Magnus > -- References 1. mailto:[11]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:[12]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu To get on or off this list see list information at [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References Visible links: 1. http://g.rebours.free.fr/6E/6.With_or_without_nails.html 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ 7. mailto:maan7...@yahoo.com 8. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu 11. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. mailto:maan7.
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Didn't Baron (In 'Study of the Lute' 1727) complain about the French who 'scratched' at their lutes. Does this imply that they played with nails? (I no longer have my copy of the Baron book, so I can't find the original quote, and I well could be mistaken). trj -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee Corbetta
Context matters, and this could indeed be a possible explanation of Ebert's addition to his text from 1723. But it seems clear that Corbetta had to pay his fellow musicians out of his own pocket first, regardless of whether he was subsequently compensated. So, if this were a myth, then at least it is based on a (rather ambiguous) historical report. Ebert: 'Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thaler.' Perhaps Madame Royale was kind enough to pay him his share. Strickly speaking, however, Corbetta's consort didn't perform there, and the story doesn't tell whether Corbetta received any compensation, in order to be able to pay them the lost income. What we don't know is whether this amount was intended to serve for the entire ensemble or whether it solely concerned his personal fee. In the first case he did not have too much to complain about. Except that he had crossed the Alps for nothing, and broke a nail. Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Monica Hall Verzonden: donderdag 9 mei 2019 09:58 Aan: r...@mh-freiburg.de; LuteList Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Corbetta Briefly - there were two editions of Ebert's book. In 1723 the account of Corbetta's visit ends Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything from Corbetta. The rest of it occurs in the edition of 1724 and implies that Corbetta paid off his musicians, but after he complained Madame re-imbursed him. His obituary in Mercure Galante specifically refers to Madame's kindness to him in his last years. You need to consider all of the texts carefully before jumping to conclusions. Monica > On 08 May 2019 at 20:13 Ralf Mattes wrote: > > > > Am Mittwoch, 08. Mai 2019 20:00 CEST, Monica Hall > schrieb: > > >The relevant passage reads as follows. Feel free to correct the > >translation. > > > >Recently the world-famous guitarist, Corbetta, who taught all the > >Potentates of Europe, came here [to Turin] from England. But because > >he had the misfortune to break a fingernail (and with old folk these > >grow again very slowly) it was impossible for him to present himself at > >the festival with his consort, however much he wanted to. Every > >foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. > >and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding > >anything from Signor Corbetta . > > > >Corbetta complained bitterly that he had come from England with great > >difficulty, > > In this case I'd translate "Schaden" with "expenses", but that's a detail. > > > and because he had invited people from Italy to come there > >[to Turin] to play in consort on his guarantee, he had to pay them > >afterwards out of his own pocket. > > That's what I wrote - he had to pay them out of his own pocket. > You claimed: "Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket > - that's just another myth." > > Cheers, RalfD > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well aware of that. There is an another interesting on-line article on the nail subject, written by Gerard Rebours: http://g.rebours.free.fr/6E/6.With_or_without_nails.html Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: donderdag 9 mei 2019 08:49 Aan: maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lute List Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee That's not the point being made. Which is that, even if some theorbo players employed nails (or didn't), we cannot draw the unequivocal conclusion that the period guitar was therefore also played with nails. And, in particular, that this was the practice that De Visee generally expected and followed himself Richard Sweeney, who uses nails, gives a reasonably even-handed account from some early sources in his blog available by pasting this into your search. https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ MH On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 14:35:21 BST, magnus andersson wrote: Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who explicitly played without fingernails? Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson : Hear! hear!. And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start Martyn On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - that's just another myth. The relevant source states that Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta]. Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform. We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails. Monica > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson <[1][2]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > >Dear collective wisdom, >From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around >since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, Corbetta >(who we know had >to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay his >fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visà ©e had found >a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing their >strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini: > >"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and cleanly; In >the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, like >pearl[s]" >/Magnus > -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee Corbetta
Briefly - there were two editions of Ebert's book. In 1723 the account of Corbetta's visit ends Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything from Corbetta. The rest of it occurs in the edition of 1724 and implies that Corbetta paid off his musicians, but after he complained Madame re-imbursed him. His obituary in Mercure Galante specifically refers to Madame's kindness to him in his last years. You need to consider all of the texts carefully before jumping to conclusions. Monica > On 08 May 2019 at 20:13 Ralf Mattes wrote: > > > > Am Mittwoch, 08. Mai 2019 20:00 CEST, Monica Hall > schrieb: > > >The relevant passage reads as follows. Feel free to correct the > >translation. > > > >Recently the world-famous guitarist, Corbetta, who taught all the > >Potentates of Europe, came here [to Turin] from England. But because > >he had the misfortune to break a fingernail (and with old folk these > >grow again very slowly) it was impossible for him to present himself at > >the festival with his consort, however much he wanted to. Every > >foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. > >and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding > >anything from Signor Corbetta . > > > >Corbetta complained bitterly that he had come from England with great > >difficulty, > > In this case I'd translate "Schaden" with "expenses", but that's a detail. > > > and because he had invited people from Italy to come there > >[to Turin] to play in consort on his guarantee, he had to pay them > >afterwards out of his own pocket. > > That's what I wrote - he had to pay them out of his own pocket. > You claimed: "Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket > - that's just another myth." > > Cheers, RalfD > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
That's not the point being made. Which is that, even if some theorbo players employed nails (or didn't), we cannot draw the unequivocal conclusion that the period guitar was therefore also played with nails. And, in particular, that this was the practice that De Visee generally expected and followed himself Richard Sweeney, who uses nails, gives a reasonably even-handed account from some early sources in his blog available by pasting this into your search. https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ MH On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 14:35:21 BST, magnus andersson wrote: Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who explicitly played without fingernails? Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson : Hear! hear!. And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start Martyn On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - that's just another myth. The relevant source states that Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta]. Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform. We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails. Monica > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson <[1][2]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > >Dear collective wisdom, >From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around >since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, Corbetta >(who we know had >to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay his >fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visà ©e had found >a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing their >strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini: > >"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and cleanly; In >the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, like >pearl[s]" >/Magnus > -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
My suspicion would be that the nails Sor heard were just not prepared well. A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. Classical Guitarist/Lutenist > On May 8, 2019, at 9:28 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: > > Sor's words: > Never in my life have I heard a guitarist whose playing was > supportable, if he played with the nails. The nails can produce but > very few gradations in the quality of the sound: the piano passages can > never be singing, nor the fortes sufficiently full. Their performance > is, to mine, what the harpsichord was in comparison to the > pianoforteâthe piano passages were always jingling, and, in the fortes, > the noise of the keys predominated over the sound of the wires. It is > necessary that the performance of Mr. Aguado should have so many > excellent qualities as it possesses, to excuse his employment of the > nails ; and he himself would have condemned the use of them if he had > not attained such a degree of agility, nor found himself beyond the > time of life in which we are able to contend against the bend of the > fingers acquired by a long habitude. > Best wishes, > Antonio > __ > > From: George Torres > To: Roman Turovsky > Cc: magnus andersson ; Martyn Hodgson > ; Lute List ; Monica > Hall > Sent: Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:45 > Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee > Sor reportedly used a nail on his thumb, for special effect, after > meeting Aguado, who did play with nails. >> On May 8, 2019, at 10:00 AM, Roman Turovsky <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> Fernando Sor. >> RT >> >> >> On 5/8/2019 9:35 AM, magnus andersson wrote: >>> Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo > player who >>> explicitly played without fingernails? >>> >>> [1]Skickat frÃÆÃ ¥n Yahoo Mail fÃÆÃ ¶r iPhone >>> >>> Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson >>> <[2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>: >>> >>> Hear! hear!. >>> >>> And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means > that De >>> >>> Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths > start >>> >>> Martyn >>> >>> On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall >>> >>> <[2][3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >>> >>> Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket > - >>> >>> that's just another myth. The relevant source states that >>> >>> Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was > given 500 >>> >>> Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not >>> >>> withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta]. >>> >>> Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of > Savoy at >>> >>> the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform. >>> >>> We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails. >>> >>> Monica >>> >>>> On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson >>> >>> <[1][3][4]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Dear collective wisdom, >>> >>>> From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has > been >>> >>> around >>> >>>> since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like > Piccinini, >>> >>> Corbetta >>> >>>> (who we know had >>> >>>> to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and > still >>> pay >>> >>> his >>> >>>> fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de > VisÃÆ Ã ©e >>> had >>> >>> found >>> >>>> a way for them to get it to work without shredding and > tearing >>> >>> their >>> >>>> strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> "the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, > and >>> >>> cleanly; In >>> >>>> the manner that all small touches of the string may be > schietto, >>> >>> like >>> >>>> pearl[s]" >>> >>>>
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Sor's words: Never in my life have I heard a guitarist whose playing was supportable, if he played with the nails. The nails can produce but very few gradations in the quality of the sound: the piano passages can never be singing, nor the fortes sufficiently full. Their performance is, to mine, what the harpsichord was in comparison to the pianoforteâthe piano passages were always jingling, and, in the fortes, the noise of the keys predominated over the sound of the wires. It is necessary that the performance of Mr. Aguado should have so many excellent qualities as it possesses, to excuse his employment of the nails ; and he himself would have condemned the use of them if he had not attained such a degree of agility, nor found himself beyond the time of life in which we are able to contend against the bend of the fingers acquired by a long habitude. Best wishes, Antonio __ From: George Torres To: Roman Turovsky Cc: magnus andersson ; Martyn Hodgson ; Lute List ; Monica Hall Sent: Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:45 Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Sor reportedly used a nail on his thumb, for special effect, after meeting Aguado, who did play with nails. > On May 8, 2019, at 10:00 AM, Roman Turovsky <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Fernando Sor. > RT > > > On 5/8/2019 9:35 AM, magnus andersson wrote: >>Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who >>explicitly played without fingernails? >> >>[1]Skickat frÃÃà ¥n Yahoo Mail fÃÃà ¶r iPhone >> >>Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson >><[2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>: >> >> Hear! hear!. >> >> And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De >> >> Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start >> >> Martyn >> >> On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall >> >> <[2][3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >> >> Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - >> >> that's just another myth. The relevant source states that >> >> Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 >> >> Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not >> >> withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta]. >> >> Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at >> >> the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform. >> >> We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails. >> >> Monica >> >> > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson >> >> <[1][3][4]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >Dear collective wisdom, >> >> >From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been >> >> around >> >> >since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, >> >> Corbetta >> >> >(who we know had >> >> >to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still >>pay >> >> his >> >> >fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de VisÃà à ©e >>had >> >> found >> >> >a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing >> >> their >> >> >strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini: >> >> > >> >> >"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and >> >> cleanly; In >> >> >the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, >> >> like >> >> >pearl[s]" >> >> >/Magnus >> >> > >> >> >On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly >> >> ><[2][4][5]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote: >> >> > Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document >>good >> &
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Thanks Roland! I wasn't trying to be contrarian when I recorded the
album. I had a lot of classical guitar gigs at the time, so I just kept
the nails for the recording session. I knew of historical sources that
mention playing with nails, so figured "I'm allowed to do this,
right?". Today I would be terrified to record that way.
Chris
[1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
On Wednesday, May 8, 2019, 9:47 PM, Roland Hayes
wrote:
Now that's what i'm talking about! Great sounding nails. How
politically incorrect these days!
Get [1]Outlook for Android
__
From: Roland Hayes
Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2019 12:59:35 PM
To: Christopher Wilke
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
Thank you so much!
Get [2]Outlook for Android
__
From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
behalf
of Christopher Wilke <[4]chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2019 10:13:56 AM
To: Roland Hayes; M Del; magnus andersson
Cc: Yuval Dvoran; John Mardinly; jslute; Lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
It sounds sumpin' like this:
[1][5]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2f2a8IQiXH0=OLAK5uy_k-OxLE7w5P
5Fx
bDhFpl82dnQRVDnvHVFo=24
The entire album was recorded with nails, in the naivite of my
youth
before I realized that HIP means "What's Allowable Now."
[2]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 7:25 PM, Roland Hayes
<[6]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote:
I don't doubt that 17th century players who used nails had nice
finish
on their nails and a nice sound as a result.
My curiosity is what does solo theorbo music sound like when
competently played with nails?
Get [1]Outlook for Android
__
From: [3][7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
<[4][8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
on
behalf
of M Del <[5][9]terli...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2019 5:57:33 PM
To: magnus andersson
Cc: Yuval Dvoran; John Mardinly; Roland Hayes; jslute; Lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
My first guitar teacher Rolando Valdes-Blain taught his
students
to
use
finely crushed pumice stone and leather from a deer (it
happened
to
be
a piece from a hunter friend).Rolando was old enough to play on
gut
strings until he came back from WW2.
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 7, 2019, at 5:20 PM, magnus andersson
<[6][10]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
> Dear collective wisdom,
> From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
around
> since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
Corbetta
> (who we know had
> to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and
still
pay
his
> fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de VisÃÃ
©e
had
found
> a way for them to get it to work without shredding and
tearing
their
> strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>
> "the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
cleanly; In
> the manner that all small touches of the string may be
schietto,
like
> pearl[s]"
> /Magnus
>
> On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
> <[7][11]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
>Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document
good
nail
>polishing techniques that may have been used centuries
ago? I
would
>love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from
telescope
> lenses
>and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails.
The
chamois
>stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not
much
better
>in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today
among
those
> who
>play with nails.
>A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
> <[1][1][
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Now that's what i'm talking about! Great sounding nails. How
politically incorrect these days!
Get [1]Outlook for Android
__
From: Roland Hayes
Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2019 12:59:35 PM
To: Christopher Wilke
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
Thank you so much!
Get [2]Outlook for Android
__
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf
of Christopher Wilke
Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2019 10:13:56 AM
To: Roland Hayes; M Del; magnus andersson
Cc: Yuval Dvoran; John Mardinly; jslute; Lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
It sounds sumpin' like this:
[1]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2f2a8IQiXH0=OLAK5uy_k-OxLE7w5P5Fx
bDhFpl82dnQRVDnvHVFo=24
The entire album was recorded with nails, in the naivite of my youth
before I realized that HIP means "What's Allowable Now."
[2]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 7:25 PM, Roland Hayes
wrote:
I don't doubt that 17th century players who used nails had nice
finish
on their nails and a nice sound as a result.
My curiosity is what does solo theorbo music sound like when
competently played with nails?
Get [1]Outlook for Android
__
From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
on
behalf
of M Del <[5]terli...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2019 5:57:33 PM
To: magnus andersson
Cc: Yuval Dvoran; John Mardinly; Roland Hayes; jslute; Lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
My first guitar teacher Rolando Valdes-Blain taught his students
to
use
finely crushed pumice stone and leather from a deer (it happened
to
be
a piece from a hunter friend).Rolando was old enough to play on
gut
strings until he came back from WW2.
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 7, 2019, at 5:20 PM, magnus andersson
<[6]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
> Dear collective wisdom,
> From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
around
> since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
Corbetta
> (who we know had
> to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still
pay
his
> fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de VisÃÆ Â©e
had
found
> a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
their
> strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>
> "the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
cleanly; In
> the manner that all small touches of the string may be
schietto,
like
> pearl[s]"
> /Magnus
>
> On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
> <[7]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
>Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document
good
nail
>polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I
would
>love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from
telescope
> lenses
>and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The
chamois
>stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not
much
better
>in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among
those
> who
>play with nails.
>A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
> <[1][1][8]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
>wrote:
>Hahahaha good point!
>To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
remember
>you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
years
to
>polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
>("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb
jslute
><[2][2][9]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
> Dear All:
> Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
build
> lutes and
> craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to
file
> and
> polish
> their nails.
> Jim Stimson
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> Original message
>
[LUTE] Re: De Visee Corbetta
You haven't read the whole passage. > On 08 May 2019 at 20:13 Ralf Mattes wrote: > > > > Am Mittwoch, 08. Mai 2019 20:00 CEST, Monica Hall > schrieb: > > >The relevant passage reads as follows. Feel free to correct the > >translation. > > > >Recently the world-famous guitarist, Corbetta, who taught all the > >Potentates of Europe, came here [to Turin] from England. But because > >he had the misfortune to break a fingernail (and with old folk these > >grow again very slowly) it was impossible for him to present himself at > >the festival with his consort, however much he wanted to. Every > >foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. > >and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding > >anything from Signor Corbetta . > > > >Corbetta complained bitterly that he had come from England with great > >difficulty, > > In this case I'd translate "Schaden" with "expenses", but that's a detail. > > > and because he had invited people from Italy to come there > >[to Turin] to play in consort on his guarantee, he had to pay them > >afterwards out of his own pocket. > > That's what I wrote - he had to pay them out of his own pocket. > You claimed: "Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket > - that's just another myth." > > Cheers, RalfD > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee Corbetta
Am Mittwoch, 08. Mai 2019 20:00 CEST, Monica Hall schrieb: >The relevant passage reads as follows. Feel free to correct the >translation. > >Recently the world-famous guitarist, Corbetta, who taught all the >Potentates of Europe, came here [to Turin] from England. But because >he had the misfortune to break a fingernail (and with old folk these >grow again very slowly) it was impossible for him to present himself at >the festival with his consort, however much he wanted to. Every >foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. >and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding >anything from Signor Corbetta . > >Corbetta complained bitterly that he had come from England with great >difficulty, In this case I'd translate "Schaden" with "expenses", but that's a detail. > and because he had invited people from Italy to come there >[to Turin] to play in consort on his guarantee, he had to pay them >afterwards out of his own pocket. That's what I wrote - he had to pay them out of his own pocket. You claimed: "Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - that's just another myth." Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Sor reportedly used a nail on his thumb, for special effect, after meeting
Aguado, who did play with nails.
> On May 8, 2019, at 10:00 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:
>
> Fernando Sor.
> RT
>
>
> On 5/8/2019 9:35 AM, magnus andersson wrote:
>>Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who
>>explicitly played without fingernails?
>>
>>[1]Skickat från Yahoo Mail för iPhone
>>
>>Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson
>>:
>>
>> Hear! hear!.
>>
>> And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De
>>
>> Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start
>>
>> Martyn
>>
>> On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall
>>
>> <[2]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket -
>>
>> that's just another myth. The relevant source states that
>>
>> Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500
>>
>> Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not
>>
>> withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta].
>>
>> Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at
>>
>> the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
>>
>> We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
>>
>> Monica
>>
>> > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson
>>
>> <[1][3]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Dear collective wisdom,
>>
>> >From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
>>
>> around
>>
>> >since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
>>
>> Corbetta
>>
>> >(who we know had
>>
>> >to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still
>>pay
>>
>> his
>>
>> >fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visà ©e
>>had
>>
>> found
>>
>> >a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
>>
>> their
>>
>> >strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
>>
>> cleanly; In
>>
>> >the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto,
>>
>> like
>>
>> >pearl[s]"
>>
>> >/Magnus
>>
>> >
>>
>> >On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
>>
>> ><[2][4]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document
>>good
>>
>> nail
>>
>> > polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I
>>
>> would
>>
>> > love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from
>>telescope
>>
>> >lenses
>>
>> > and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The
>>
>> chamois
>>
>> > stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much
>>
>> better
>>
>> > in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among
>>
>> those
>>
>> >who
>>
>> > play with nails.
>>
>> > A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>>
>> > On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
>>
>> ><[1][1][3][5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
>>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > Hahahaha good point!
>>
>> > To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
>>
>> remember
>>
>> > you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
>>
>> years to
>>
>> > polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
>>
>> > ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
>>
>> > <[2][2][4][6]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
][5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
>>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > Hahahaha good point!
>>
>> > To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
>>
>> remember
>>
>> > you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
>>
>> years to
>>
>> > polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
>>
>> > ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
>>
>> > <[2][2][4][6]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>>
>> >Dear All:
>>
>> >Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
>>
>> build
>>
>> >lutes and
>>
>> >craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to
>>
>> file
>>
>> >and
>>
>> >polish
>>
>> >their nails.
>>
>> >Jim Stimson
>>
>> >Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>>
>> > Original message
>>
>> >From: John Mardinly <[3][3][5][7]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
>>
>> >Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>
>> >To: Roland Hayes
>><[4][4][6][8]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
>>
>> >Cc: Lute List <[5][5][7][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>
>> >Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
>>
>> >More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of
>>
>> the
>>
>> >modern
>>
>> >files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly
>>
>> prepared
>>
>> >nails give
>>
>> >a terrible result for both sound and playability. My
>>
>> teacher
>>
>> >back
>>
>> >in
>>
>> >1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia
>>
>> >prepared
>>
>> >his
>>
>> >nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a
>>
>> saw-cut
>>
>> >slot in
>>
>> >it and a piece of chamois wrapped around the wooden
>>block.
>>
>> The
>>
>> >nail was
>>
>> >then rubbed back and forth on the chamois over the slot,
>>
>> which
>>
>> >acted as
>>
>> >a track to guide the nail. When I began to study
>>
>> metallurgy and
>>
>> >the art
>>
>> >of cross-sectioning and polishing metals to view their
>>
>> >microstructure,
>>
>> >I experienced a revolution in materials to polish the
>>
>> nails
>>
>> >that
>>
>> >were
>>
>> >quickly adopted by many people playing with nails.
>>
>> >A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>>
>> >> On May 6, 2019, at 3:34 PM, Roland Hayes
>>
>> ><[6][6][8][10]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
>>
>> >wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> Do we think he played with nails? Lutenists did not
>>as
>>
>> I
>>
>> >understand,
>>
>> >> but
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> I have always thought his lute pieces were merely
>>
>> >arrangements of
>>
>> >> guitar/theorbo pieces. For those instruments we can
>>
>> >establish
>>
>> >the
>>
>> >use
>>
>> >> of nails.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> And if deVisee played guitar with nails, then he most
>>
>> likely
>>
>> >played
>>
>&g
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Piccinini and Mary Burwell's teacher are quite clear about this !
Best,
Jean-Marie
Le 08/05/2019 à 15:35, magnus andersson a écrit :
Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who
explicitly played without fingernails?
[1]Skickat från Yahoo Mail för iPhone
Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson
:
Hear! hear!.
And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De
Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start
Martyn
On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall
<[2]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket -
that's just another myth. The relevant source states that
Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500
Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not
withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta].
Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at
the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
Monica
> On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson
<[1][3]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Dear collective wisdom,
>From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
around
>since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
Corbetta
>(who we know had
>to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still
pay
his
>fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visà ©e
had
found
>a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
their
>strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>
>"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
cleanly; In
>the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto,
like
>pearl[s]"
>/Magnus
>
>On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
><[2][4]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
> Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document
good
nail
> polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I
would
> love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from
telescope
>lenses
> and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The
chamois
> stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much
better
> in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among
those
>who
> play with nails.
> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
><[1][1][3][5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
> wrote:
> Hahahaha good point!
> To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
remember
> you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
years to
> polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
> ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
> <[2][2][4][6]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>Dear All:
>Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
build
>lutes and
>craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to
file
>and
>polish
>their nails.
>Jim Stimson
>Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> Original message
>From: John Mardinly <[3][3][5][7]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
>Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
>To: Roland Hayes
<[4][4][6][8]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
>Cc: Lute List <[5][5][7][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
>More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of
the
>modern
>files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly
prepared
>nails give
>a terrible result for both sound and playability. My
teacher
>back
>in
>1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia
>prepared
>his
>
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Well, that's not the point I was making. Which is that, even if some
theorbo players employed nails (or didn't), we cannot draw the
unequivocal conclusion that the period guitar was therefore also played
with nails. And, in particular, that this was the practice that De
Visee generally expected.
Richard Sweeney, who uses nails, gives a reasonably even-handed account
in this blog:
[1]âThe best way of play' | Richard Sweeney
âThe best way of play' | Richard Sweeney
Around 13 years ago after my end-of-year recital as a student studying
classical guitar in Dublin I ceremoniousl...
MH
On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 14:42:51 BST, magnus andersson
wrote:
Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player
who
explicitly played without fingernails?
[1]Skickat frà ¥n Yahoo Mail fà ¶r iPhone
Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson
<[2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
Hear! hear!.
And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that
De
Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths
start
Martyn
On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall
<[2][3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket -
that's just another myth. The relevant source states that
Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given
500
Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not
withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta].
Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy
at
the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
Monica
> On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson
<[1][3][4]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Dear collective wisdom,
>From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
around
>since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
Corbetta
>(who we know had
>to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still
pay
his
>fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visà ©e
had
found
>a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
their
>strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>
>"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
cleanly; In
>the manner that all small touches of the string may be
schietto,
like
>pearl[s]"
>/Magnus
>
>On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
><[2][4][5]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
> Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document
good
nail
> polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago?
I
would
> love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from
telescope
>lenses
> and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails.
The
chamois
> stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not
much
better
> in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today
among
those
>who
> play with nails.
> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
><[1][1][3][5][6]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
> wrote:
> Hahahaha good point!
> To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
remember
> you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
years to
> polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
> ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb
jslute
> <[2][2][4][6][7]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>Dear All:
>Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
build
>lutes and
>craft overwound strings could have figured out a way
to
file
>and
>polish
>their nails.
>Jim Stimson
>Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> Original message
>From: John Mardinly
<[3][3][5][7][8]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
>Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
>To: Roland Hayes
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
It sounds sumpin' like this:
[1]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2f2a8IQiXH0=OLAK5uy_k-OxLE7w5P5Fx
bDhFpl82dnQRVDnvHVFo=24
The entire album was recorded with nails, in the naivite of my youth
before I realized that HIP means "What's Allowable Now."
[2]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 7:25 PM, Roland Hayes
wrote:
I don't doubt that 17th century players who used nails had nice
finish
on their nails and a nice sound as a result.
My curiosity is what does solo theorbo music sound like when
competently played with nails?
Get [1]Outlook for Android
__
From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
behalf
of M Del <[5]terli...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2019 5:57:33 PM
To: magnus andersson
Cc: Yuval Dvoran; John Mardinly; Roland Hayes; jslute; Lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
My first guitar teacher Rolando Valdes-Blain taught his students to
use
finely crushed pumice stone and leather from a deer (it happened to
be
a piece from a hunter friend).Rolando was old enough to play on gut
strings until he came back from WW2.
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 7, 2019, at 5:20 PM, magnus andersson
<[6]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
> Dear collective wisdom,
> From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
around
> since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
Corbetta
> (who we know had
> to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay
his
> fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visà ©e had
found
> a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
their
> strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>
> "the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
cleanly; In
> the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto,
like
> pearl[s]"
> /Magnus
>
> On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
> <[7]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
>Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document good
nail
>polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I
would
>love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from telescope
> lenses
>and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The
chamois
>stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much
better
>in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among
those
> who
>play with nails.
>A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
> <[1][1][8]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
>wrote:
>Hahahaha good point!
>To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
remember
>you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
years
to
>polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
>("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
><[2][2][9]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
> Dear All:
> Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
build
> lutes and
> craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to
file
> and
> polish
> their nails.
> Jim Stimson
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> Original message
> From: John Mardinly <[3][3][10]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
> Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
> To: Roland Hayes <[4][4][11]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
> Cc: Lute List <[5][5][12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
> More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of
the
> modern
> files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly
prepared
> nails give
> a terrible result for both sound and playability. My
teacher
> back
> in
> 1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia
> prepared
> his
> nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a
saw-cut
> slot in
>
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Fernando Sor.
RT
On 5/8/2019 9:35 AM, magnus andersson wrote:
Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who
explicitly played without fingernails?
[1]Skickat från Yahoo Mail för iPhone
Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson
:
Hear! hear!.
And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De
Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start
Martyn
On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall
<[2]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket -
that's just another myth. The relevant source states that
Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500
Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not
withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta].
Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at
the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
Monica
> On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson
<[1][3]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Dear collective wisdom,
>From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
around
>since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
Corbetta
>(who we know had
>to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still
pay
his
>fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visà ©e
had
found
>a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
their
>strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>
>"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
cleanly; In
>the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto,
like
>pearl[s]"
>/Magnus
>
>On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
><[2][4]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
> Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document
good
nail
> polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I
would
> love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from
telescope
>lenses
> and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The
chamois
> stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much
better
> in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among
those
>who
> play with nails.
> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
><[1][1][3][5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
> wrote:
> Hahahaha good point!
> To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
remember
> you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
years to
> polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
> ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
> <[2][2][4][6]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>Dear All:
>Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
build
>lutes and
>craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to
file
>and
>polish
>their nails.
>Jim Stimson
>Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> Original message
>From: John Mardinly <[3][3][5][7]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
>Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
>To: Roland Hayes
<[4][4][6][8]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
>Cc: Lute List <[5][5][7][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
>More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of
the
>modern
>files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly
prepared
>nails give
>a terrible result for both sound and playability. My
teacher
>back
>in
>1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia
>prepared
>his
>nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a
sa
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who
explicitly played without fingernails?
[1]Skickat frÃÂ¥n Yahoo Mail för iPhone
Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson
:
Hear! hear!.
And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De
Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start
Martyn
On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall
<[2]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket -
that's just another myth. The relevant source states that
Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500
Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not
withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta].
Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at
the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
Monica
> On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson
<[1][3]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Dear collective wisdom,
>From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
around
>since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
Corbetta
>(who we know had
>to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still
pay
his
>fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visà ©e
had
found
>a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
their
>strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>
>"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
cleanly; In
>the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto,
like
>pearl[s]"
>/Magnus
>
>On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
><[2][4]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
> Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document
good
nail
> polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I
would
> love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from
telescope
>lenses
> and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The
chamois
> stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much
better
> in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among
those
>who
> play with nails.
> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
><[1][1][3][5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
> wrote:
> Hahahaha good point!
> To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
remember
> you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
years to
> polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
> ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
> <[2][2][4][6]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>Dear All:
>Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
build
>lutes and
>craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to
file
>and
>polish
>their nails.
>Jim Stimson
>Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> Original message
>From: John Mardinly <[3][3][5][7]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
>Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
>To: Roland Hayes
<[4][4][6][8]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
>Cc: Lute List <[5][5][7][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
>More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of
the
>modern
>files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly
prepared
>nails give
>a terrible result for both sound and playability. My
teacher
>back
>in
>1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia
>prepared
>his
>nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a
saw-cut
>slot in
>it and a piece of chamois wrapped around the wooden
block.
The
>nail was
>
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Hear! hear!.
And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De
Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start
Martyn
On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall
wrote:
Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket -
that's just another myth. The relevant source states that
Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500
Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not
withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta].
Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at
the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
Monica
> On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson
<[1]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Dear collective wisdom,
>From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
around
>since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
Corbetta
>(who we know had
>to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay
his
>fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visà ©e had
found
>a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
their
>strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>
>"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
cleanly; In
>the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto,
like
>pearl[s]"
>/Magnus
>
>On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
><[2]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
> Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document good
nail
> polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I
would
> love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from telescope
>lenses
> and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The
chamois
> stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much
better
> in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among
those
>who
> play with nails.
> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
><[1][1][3]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
> wrote:
> Hahahaha good point!
> To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
remember
> you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
years to
> polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
> ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
> <[2][2][4]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>Dear All:
>Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
build
>lutes and
>craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to
file
>and
>polish
>their nails.
>Jim Stimson
>Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> Original message
>From: John Mardinly <[3][3][5]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
> Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
>To: Roland Hayes <[4][4][6]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
>Cc: Lute List <[5][5][7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
>More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of
the
>modern
>files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly
prepared
>nails give
>a terrible result for both sound and playability. My
teacher
>back
>in
>1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia
>prepared
>his
>nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a
saw-cut
>slot in
>it and a piece of chamois wrapped around the wooden block.
The
>nail was
>then rubbed back and forth on the chamois over the slot,
which
>acted as
>a track to guide the nail. When I began to study
metallurgy and
>the art
>of cross-sectioning and polishing metals to view their
>microstructure,
>I experienced a revolution in materials to polish the
nails
>that
>were
>quickly adopted by many people playing with nails.
>A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>> On May 6, 2019, at 3:34 PM, Roland Hayes
&g
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Am Mittwoch, 08. Mai 2019 10:04 CEST, magnus andersson schrieb: >Dear Monica, you ´re right- >Francesco seems to have been the scheduled star musician of the >evening. At >the banquet, an ensemble consisting of lutes, theorboes, angeliques and >guitars was >heard, and Francesco was probably thought of as the icing on the >cake... > No, that ensemble of plucked instuments describes a christmas service at the church St. Johann in the presence of the king and his mother. Interestingly, Ebert remarks that such soft music isn't really approproate for churches and other large spaces. Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Am Mittwoch, 08. Mai 2019 09:40 CEST, Monica Hall
schrieb:
> Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - that's just
> another myth.
Sorry, but that's nit what Ebert is writing. To qoute:
"... und dieselbe nachmals aus seinem Beutel auszahlen müssen."
"Dieselbe" here referes to 'Musique' (i.e. ensemble) comming from italy he
ordered/booked and guaranteed (payment).
He lso complains that he had high costs ('Schaden') traveling from England.
> The relevant source states that
> Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr.
> and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything
> [from Signor Corbetta].
Nowhere does Ebert mention whether those 500 Thaler was given to each indiviual
performer (highly unlikely) and not to
the ensemble.
Cheers, Ralf Mattes
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Should be 1724...
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Lex
Eisenhardt
Verzonden: woensdag 8 mei 2019 11:43
Aan: 'LuteList'
Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
The 'myth' is probably based on Ebert's Vermehrte Reise Beschreibung (1674):
https://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/id/PPN518447235?tify={%22pages%22:[311],%22view%22:%22info%22}
Lex
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Yuval
Dvoran
Verzonden: woensdag 8 mei 2019 10:43
Aan: LuteList
Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
I was always wondering where this story comes from - thank you Magnus!
By the way, you can buy the book here:
https://www.zvab.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=19245595719=hl%3Don%26tn%3Dauli%2Bapronii%2Bvermehrte%2Breise%26sortby%3D20%26an%3Debert
.and if that's to expensive, you can download it at the site of the SLUB:
https://digital.slub-dresden.de/werkansicht/dlf/1501/1/
Am 08.05.2019 10:04 schrieb magnus andersson :
>
>Dear Monica, you re right-
>Francesco seems to have been the scheduled star musician of the
>evening. At
>the banquet, an ensemble consisting of lutes, theorboes, angeliques
> and
>guitars was
>heard, and Francesco was probably thought of as the icing on the
>cake...
>Here is the original description written by Adam Ebert, in his
> travel
>diary:
>
> [1]https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=6PpWcAAJ=de=GBS.P
> A
>251
>Best, Magnus
>
>On Wednesday, May 8, 2019, 10:00:09 AM GMT+2, Monica Hall
> wrote:
>Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket -
>that's just another myth. The relevant source states that
>Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given
> 500
>Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not
>withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta].
>Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy
> at
>the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
>We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
>Monica
>> On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson
><[2]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Dear collective wisdom,
>>From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
>around
>>since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
>Corbetta
>>(who we know had
>>to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still
> pay
>his
>>fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Vis
> e had
>found
>>a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
>their
>>strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>>
>>"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
>cleanly; In
>>the manner that all small touches of the string may be
> schietto,
>like
>>pearl[s]"
>>/Magnus
>>
>>On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
>><[3]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
>> Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document
> good
>nail
>> polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago?
> I
>would
>> love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from
> telescope
>>lenses
>> and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails.
> The
>chamois
>> stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not
> much
>better
>> in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today
> among
>those
>>who
>> play with nails.
>> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>> On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
>><[1][1][4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
>> wrote:
>> Hahahaha good point!
>> To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
>remember
>> you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
>years to
>> polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
>> ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb
> jslute
>> <[2][2][5]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>>Dear All:
>>Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
>build
>>lutes and
>>craft overwound strings could have figured out a way
>
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
That sounds very exciting.
How is it that we seldom experience such delight on an album?
I frequently encounter descriptions of music that is never recreated in
the same way.
I remember a CD with lute orchestra from BIS records, and Rolf Lislevand
has done some stuff that goes into the direction.
Any recommendations out there?
On 08.05.19 10:04, magnus andersson wrote:
Dear Monica, you ´re right-
Francesco seems to have been the scheduled star musician of the
evening. At
the banquet, an ensemble consisting of lutes, theorboes, angeliques and
guitars was
heard, and Francesco was probably thought of as the icing on the
cake...
Here is the original description written by Adam Ebert, in his travel
diary:
[1]https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=6PpWcAAJ=de=GBS.PA
251
Best, Magnus
On Wednesday, May 8, 2019, 10:00:09 AM GMT+2, Monica Hall
wrote:
Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket -
that's just another myth. The relevant source states that
Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500
Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not
withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta].
Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at
the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
Monica
> On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson
<[2]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Dear collective wisdom,
>From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
around
>since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
Corbetta
>(who we know had
>to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay
his
>fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visà ©e had
found
>a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
their
>strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>
>"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
cleanly; In
>the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto,
like
>pearl[s]"
>/Magnus
>
>On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
><[3]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
> Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document good
nail
> polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I
would
> love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from telescope
>lenses
> and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The
chamois
> stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much
better
> in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among
those
>who
> play with nails.
> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
><[1][1][4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
> wrote:
> Hahahaha good point!
> To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
remember
> you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
years to
> polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
> ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
> <[2][2][5]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>Dear All:
>Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
build
>lutes and
>craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to
file
>and
>polish
>their nails.
>Jim Stimson
>Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> Original message
>From: John Mardinly <[3][3][6]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
>Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
>To: Roland Hayes <[4][4][7]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
>Cc: Lute List <[5][5][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
>More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of
the
>modern
>files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly
prepared
>nails give
>a terrible result for both sound and playability. My
teacher
>back
>in
>1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia
>prepared
>his
>nails: after some filing, he used a wooden
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
The 'myth' is probably based on Ebert's Vermehrte Reise Beschreibung (1674):
https://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/id/PPN518447235?tify={%22pages%22:[311],%22view%22:%22info%22}
Lex
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Yuval
Dvoran
Verzonden: woensdag 8 mei 2019 10:43
Aan: LuteList
Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
I was always wondering where this story comes from - thank you Magnus!
By the way, you can buy the book here:
https://www.zvab.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=19245595719=hl%3Don%26tn%3Dauli%2Bapronii%2Bvermehrte%2Breise%26sortby%3D20%26an%3Debert
.and if that's to expensive, you can download it at the site of the SLUB:
https://digital.slub-dresden.de/werkansicht/dlf/1501/1/
Am 08.05.2019 10:04 schrieb magnus andersson :
>
>Dear Monica, you re right-
>Francesco seems to have been the scheduled star musician of the
>evening. At
>the banquet, an ensemble consisting of lutes, theorboes, angeliques
> and
>guitars was
>heard, and Francesco was probably thought of as the icing on the
>cake...
>Here is the original description written by Adam Ebert, in his
> travel
>diary:
>
> [1]https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=6PpWcAAJ=de=GBS.P
> A
>251
>Best, Magnus
>
>On Wednesday, May 8, 2019, 10:00:09 AM GMT+2, Monica Hall
> wrote:
>Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket -
>that's just another myth. The relevant source states that
>Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given
> 500
>Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not
>withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta].
>Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy
> at
>the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
>We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
>Monica
>> On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson
><[2]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Dear collective wisdom,
>>From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
>around
>>since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
>Corbetta
>>(who we know had
>>to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still
> pay
>his
>>fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Vis
> e had
>found
>>a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
>their
>>strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>>
>>"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
>cleanly; In
>>the manner that all small touches of the string may be
> schietto,
>like
>>pearl[s]"
>>/Magnus
>>
>>On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
>><[3]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
>> Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document
> good
>nail
>> polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago?
> I
>would
>> love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from
> telescope
>>lenses
>> and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails.
> The
>chamois
>> stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not
> much
>better
>> in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today
> among
>those
>>who
>> play with nails.
>> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>> On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
>><[1][1][4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
>> wrote:
>> Hahahaha good point!
>> To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
>remember
>> you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
>years to
>> polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
>> ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb
> jslute
>> <[2][2][5]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>>Dear All:
>>Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
>build
>>lutes and
>>craft overwound strings could have figured out a way
> to
>file
>>and
>> polish
>>their nails.
>>Jim Stimson
>>Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>>
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
I was always wondering where this story comes from - thank you Magnus!
By the way, you can buy the book here:
https://www.zvab.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=19245595719=hl%3Don%26tn%3Dauli%2Bapronii%2Bvermehrte%2Breise%26sortby%3D20%26an%3Debert
..and if that's to expensive, you can download it at the site of the SLUB:
https://digital.slub-dresden.de/werkansicht/dlf/1501/1/
Am 08.05.2019 10:04 schrieb magnus andersson :
>
> Dear Monica, you ��re right-
> Francesco seems to have been the scheduled star musician of the
> evening. At
> the banquet, an ensemble consisting of lutes, theorboes, angeliques and
> guitars was
> heard, and Francesco was probably thought of as the icing on the
> cake...
> Here is the original description written by Adam Ebert, in his travel
> diary:
> [1]https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=6PpWcAAJ=de=GBS.PA
> 251
> Best, Magnus
>
> On Wednesday, May 8, 2019, 10:00:09 AM GMT+2, Monica Hall
> wrote:
> Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket -
> that's just another myth. The relevant source states that
> Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500
> Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not
> withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta].
> Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at
> the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
> We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
> Monica
> > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson
> <[2]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Dear collective wisdom,
> > From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
> around
> > since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
> Corbetta
> > (who we know had
> > to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay
> his
> > fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Vis�� ��e had
> found
> > a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
> their
> > strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
> >
> > "the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
> cleanly; In
> > the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto,
> like
> > pearl[s]"
> > /Magnus
> >
> > On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
> > <[3]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
> > Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document good
> nail
> > polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I
> would
> > love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from telescope
> > lenses
> > and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The
> chamois
> > stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much
> better
> > in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among
> those
> > who
> > play with nails.
> > A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> > On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
> > <[1][1][4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
> > wrote:
> > Hahahaha good point!
> > To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
> remember
> > you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
> years to
> > polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
> > ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
> > <[2][2][5]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
> > Dear All:
> > Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
> build
> > lutes and
> > craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to
> file
> > and
> > polish
> > their nails.
> > Jim Stimson
> > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> > Original message
> > From: John Mardinly <[3][3][6]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
> > Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
> > To: Roland Hayes <[4][4][7]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
> > Cc: Lute List <[5][5][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
> >
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Just another idea about the nail issue: wouldn't it be possible for them
instead of polishing to apply something on their nails to make them smooth,
like fat, glue (animal glue gets quite hard when its dry) or something else?
There are also some modern lute and guitar players who put a bit of Vaseline on
their nails before starting to play...Am 08.05.2019 09:40 schrieb Monica Hall
:
>
> Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - that's just
> another myth. The relevant source states that
>
> Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr.
> and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything
> [from Signor Corbetta].
>
> Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at the
> time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
>
> We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
>
> Monica
>
> > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson wrote:
> >
> >
> > Dear collective wisdom,
> > From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around
> > since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, Corbetta
> > (who we know had
> > to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay his
> > fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visée had found
> > a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing their
> > strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
> >
> > "the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and cleanly; In
> > the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, like
> > pearl[s]"
> > /Magnus
> >
> > On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
> > wrote:
> > Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document good nail
> > polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I would
> > love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from telescope
> > lenses
> > and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The chamois
> > stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much better
> > in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among those
> > who
> > play with nails.
> > A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> > On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
> > <[1][1]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
> > wrote:
> > Hahahaha good point!
> > To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to remember
> > you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of years to
> > polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
> > ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
> > <[2][2]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
> > Dear All:
> > Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to build
> > lutes and
> > craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to file
> > and
> > polish
> > their nails.
> > Jim Stimson
> > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> > Original message
> > From: John Mardinly <[3][3]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
> > Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
> > To: Roland Hayes <[4][4]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
> > Cc: Lute List <[5][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
> > More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of the
> > modern
> > files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly prepared
> > nails give
> > a terrible result for both sound and playability. My teacher
> > back
> > in
> > 1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia
> > prepared
> > his
> > nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a saw-cut
> > slot in
> > it and a piece of chamois wrapped around the wooden block. The
> > nail was
> > then rubbed back and forth on the chamois over the slot, which
> > acted as
> > a track to guide the nail. When I began to study metallurgy and
> > the art
> > of cross-sectioning and polishing metals to view their
> > microstructure,
> > I experienced a revoluti
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Dear Monica, you ´re right-
Francesco seems to have been the scheduled star musician of the
evening. At
the banquet, an ensemble consisting of lutes, theorboes, angeliques and
guitars was
heard, and Francesco was probably thought of as the icing on the
cake...
Here is the original description written by Adam Ebert, in his travel
diary:
[1]https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=6PpWcAAJ=de=GBS.PA
251
Best, Magnus
On Wednesday, May 8, 2019, 10:00:09 AM GMT+2, Monica Hall
wrote:
Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket -
that's just another myth. The relevant source states that
Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500
Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not
withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta].
Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at
the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
Monica
> On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson
<[2]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Dear collective wisdom,
>From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
around
>since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
Corbetta
>(who we know had
>to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay
his
>fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visà ©e had
found
>a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
their
>strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>
>"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
cleanly; In
>the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto,
like
>pearl[s]"
>/Magnus
>
>On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
><[3]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
> Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document good
nail
> polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I
would
> love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from telescope
>lenses
> and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The
chamois
> stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much
better
> in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among
those
>who
> play with nails.
> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
><[1][1][4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
> wrote:
> Hahahaha good point!
> To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
remember
> you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
years to
> polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
> ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
> <[2][2][5]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>Dear All:
>Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
build
>lutes and
>craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to
file
>and
>polish
>their nails.
>Jim Stimson
>Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> Original message
>From: John Mardinly <[3][3][6]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
> Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
>To: Roland Hayes <[4][4][7]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
>Cc: Lute List <[5][5][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
>More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of
the
>modern
>files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly
prepared
>nails give
>a terrible result for both sound and playability. My
teacher
>back
>in
>1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia
>prepared
>his
>nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a
saw-cut
>slot in
>it and a piece of chamois wrapped around the wooden block.
The
>nail was
>then rubbed back and forth on the chamois over the slot,
which
>acted as
>a track to guide the nail. When I began to study
metallurgy and
>the art
>of cross-sectioning and polishing metals to view their
>microstructure,
>I expe
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - that's just
another myth. The relevant source states that
Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and
Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything [from
Signor Corbetta].
Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at the time
when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
Monica
> On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson wrote:
>
>
>Dear collective wisdom,
>From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around
>since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, Corbetta
>(who we know had
>to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay his
>fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visée had found
>a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing their
>strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>
>"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and cleanly; In
>the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, like
>pearl[s]"
>/Magnus
>
>On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
> wrote:
> Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document good nail
> polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I would
> love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from telescope
>lenses
> and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The chamois
> stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much better
> in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among those
>who
> play with nails.
> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
><[1][1]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
> wrote:
> Hahahaha good point!
> To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to remember
> you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of years to
> polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
> ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
> <[2][2]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>Dear All:
>Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to build
>lutes and
>craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to file
>and
>polish
>their nails.
>Jim Stimson
>Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> Original message
>From: John Mardinly <[3][3]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
> Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
>To: Roland Hayes <[4][4]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
>Cc: Lute List <[5][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
>More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of the
>modern
>files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly prepared
>nails give
>a terrible result for both sound and playability. My teacher
>back
>in
>1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia
>prepared
>his
>nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a saw-cut
>slot in
>it and a piece of chamois wrapped around the wooden block. The
>nail was
>then rubbed back and forth on the chamois over the slot, which
>acted as
>a track to guide the nail. When I began to study metallurgy and
>the art
>of cross-sectioning and polishing metals to view their
>microstructure,
>I experienced a revolution in materials to polish the nails
>that
>were
>quickly adopted by many people playing with nails.
>A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>> On May 6, 2019, at 3:34 PM, Roland Hayes
><[6][6]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
>wrote:
>>
>> Do we think he played with nails? Lutenists did not as I
>understand,
>> but
>>
>> I have always thought his lute pieces were merely
>arrangements of
>> guitar/theorbo pieces. For those instruments we can
>establish
>the
>use
>> of nails.
>>
>> And if deVisee played guitar with nails, then he most likely
>played
>
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
I play with with nails, and a video of me playing can be found at the
link below, with more to follow on YouTube soon. I hope this goes some
way to satisfying your curiosity, and criticism (preferably
constructive!) is welcome.
[1]https://youtu.be/msh4dbjLl0k
Toby
On Wed, 8 May 2019, 00:27 Roland Hayes, <[2]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
wrote:
I don't doubt that 17th century players who used nails had nice
finish
on their nails and a nice sound as a result.
My curiosity is what does solo theorbo music sound like when
competently played with nails?
Get [1]Outlook for Android
__
From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
on behalf
of M Del <[5]terli...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2019 5:57:33 PM
To: magnus andersson
Cc: Yuval Dvoran; John Mardinly; Roland Hayes; jslute; Lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
My first guitar teacher Rolando Valdes-Blain taught his students
to use
finely crushed pumice stone and leather from a deer (it happened
to be
a piece from a hunter friend).Rolando was old enough to play on
gut
strings until he came back from WW2.
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 7, 2019, at 5:20 PM, magnus andersson
<[6]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
>Dear collective wisdom,
>From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
around
>since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like
Piccinini,
Corbetta
>(who we know had
>to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and
still pay
his
>fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de VisÃ
©e had
found
>a way for them to get it to work without shredding and
tearing
their
>strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>
>"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
cleanly; In
>the manner that all small touches of the string may be
schietto,
like
>pearl[s]"
>/Magnus
>
>On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
><[7]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
> Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document
good
nail
> polishing techniques that may have been used centuries
ago? I
would
> love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from
telescope
>lenses
> and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails.
The
chamois
> stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not
much
better
> in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today
among
those
>who
> play with nails.
> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
><[1][1][8]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
> wrote:
> Hahahaha good point!
> To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like
to
remember
> you that also plants exist which were used for thousands
of years
to
> polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
> ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb
jslute
> <[2][2][9]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>Dear All:
>Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough
to
build
>lutes and
>craft overwound strings could have figured out a way
to
file
>and
>polish
>their nails.
>Jim Stimson
>Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> Original message
>From: John Mardinly
<[3][3][10]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
>Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
>To: Roland Hayes
<[4][4][11]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
>Cc: Lute List <[5][5][12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
>More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some
of the
>modern
>files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly
prepared
>
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Very similar to what Segovia used, and certainly about the best there
was mid-20th century, but no comparison to 1500 grit 3M silicon carbide
papers.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
On May 7, 2019, at 2:57 PM, M Del <[1]terli...@aol.com> wrote:
My first guitar teacher Rolando Valdes-Blain taught his students to use
finely crushed pumice stone and leather from a deer (it happened to be
a piece from a hunter friend).Rolando was old enough to play on gut
strings until he came back from WW2.
Sent from my iPhone
On May 7, 2019, at 5:20 PM, magnus andersson
<[2]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
Dear collective wisdom,
From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around
since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
Corbetta
(who we know had
to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay
his
fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visée had
found
a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
their
strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
cleanly; In
the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto,
like
pearl[s]"
/Magnus
On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
<[3]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document good
nail
polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I
would
love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from telescope
lenses
and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The
chamois
stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much
better
in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among
those
who
play with nails.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
<[1][1][4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
wrote:
Hahahaha good point!
To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
remember
you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of years
to
polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
<[2][2][5]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
Dear All:
Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
build
lutes and
craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to
file
and
polish
their nails.
Jim Stimson
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
Original message
From: John Mardinly <[3][3][6]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Roland Hayes <[4][4][7]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
Cc: Lute List <[5][5][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of the
modern
files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly
prepared
nails give
a terrible result for both sound and playability. My
teacher
back
in
1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia
prepared
his
nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a
saw-cut
slot in
it and a piece of chamois wrapped around the wooden block.
The
nail was
then rubbed back and forth on the chamois over the slot,
which
acted as
a track to guide the nail. When I began to study metallurgy
and
the art
of cross-sectioning and polishing metals to view their
microstructure,
I experienced a revolution in materials to polish the nails
that
were
quickly adopted by many people playing with nails.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
On May 6, 2019, at 3:34 PM, Roland Hayes
<[6][6][9]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
wrote:
Do we think he played with nails? Lutenists did not as I
understand,
but
I have always thought his lute pieces were merely
arrangements of
guitar/theorbo pieces. For those instruments we can
establish
the
use
of nails.
And if deVisee played guitar with nails, then he most likely
played
theorbo with nails as well. Yes? Glue on nails had yet to
arrive on
the
scene.
Get [1]Outlook fo
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
I don't doubt that 17th century players who used nails had nice finish
on their nails and a nice sound as a result.
My curiosity is what does solo theorbo music sound like when
competently played with nails?
Get [1]Outlook for Android
__
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf
of M Del
Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2019 5:57:33 PM
To: magnus andersson
Cc: Yuval Dvoran; John Mardinly; Roland Hayes; jslute; Lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
My first guitar teacher Rolando Valdes-Blain taught his students to use
finely crushed pumice stone and leather from a deer (it happened to be
a piece from a hunter friend).Rolando was old enough to play on gut
strings until he came back from WW2.
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 7, 2019, at 5:20 PM, magnus andersson
wrote:
>
> Dear collective wisdom,
> From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around
> since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
Corbetta
> (who we know had
> to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay
his
> fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visée had
found
> a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
their
> strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>
> "the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
cleanly; In
> the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto,
like
> pearl[s]"
> /Magnus
>
> On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
>wrote:
> Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document good
nail
> polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I
would
> love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from telescope
> lenses
> and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The
chamois
> stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much
better
> in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among
those
> who
> play with nails.
> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
> <[1][1]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
> wrote:
> Hahahaha good point!
> To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
remember
> you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of years
to
> polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
> ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
> <[2][2]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
> Dear All:
> Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
build
> lutes and
> craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to
file
> and
> polish
> their nails.
> Jim Stimson
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> Original message
> From: John Mardinly <[3][3]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
> Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
> To: Roland Hayes <[4][4]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
> Cc: Lute List <[5][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
> More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of the
> modern
> files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly
prepared
> nails give
> a terrible result for both sound and playability. My
teacher
> back
> in
> 1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia
> prepared
> his
> nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a
saw-cut
> slot in
> it and a piece of chamois wrapped around the wooden block.
The
> nail was
> then rubbed back and forth on the chamois over the slot,
which
> acted as
> a track to guide the nail. When I began to study metallurgy
and
> the art
> of cross-sectioning and polishing metals to view their
> microstructure,
> I experienced a revolution in materials to polish the nails
> that
> were
> quickly adopted by many people playing with nails.
> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>> On May 6, 2019, at 3:34 PM, Roland Hayes
> <[6][6]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> Do we think he played w
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
My first guitar teacher Rolando Valdes-Blain taught his students to use finely
crushed pumice stone and leather from a deer (it happened to be a piece from a
hunter friend).Rolando was old enough to play on gut strings until he came back
from WW2.
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 7, 2019, at 5:20 PM, magnus andersson
> wrote:
>
> Dear collective wisdom,
> From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around
> since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, Corbetta
> (who we know had
> to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay his
> fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visée had found
> a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing their
> strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>
> "the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and cleanly; In
> the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, like
> pearl[s]"
> /Magnus
>
> On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
>wrote:
> Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document good nail
> polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I would
> love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from telescope
> lenses
> and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The chamois
> stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much better
> in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among those
> who
> play with nails.
> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
> <[1][1]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
> wrote:
> Hahahaha good point!
> To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to remember
> you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of years to
> polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
> ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
> <[2][2]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
> Dear All:
> Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to build
> lutes and
> craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to file
> and
> polish
> their nails.
> Jim Stimson
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> Original message
> From: John Mardinly <[3][3]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
> Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
> To: Roland Hayes <[4][4]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
> Cc: Lute List <[5][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
> More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of the
> modern
> files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly prepared
> nails give
> a terrible result for both sound and playability. My teacher
> back
> in
> 1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia
> prepared
> his
> nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a saw-cut
> slot in
> it and a piece of chamois wrapped around the wooden block. The
> nail was
> then rubbed back and forth on the chamois over the slot, which
> acted as
> a track to guide the nail. When I began to study metallurgy and
> the art
> of cross-sectioning and polishing metals to view their
> microstructure,
> I experienced a revolution in materials to polish the nails
> that
> were
> quickly adopted by many people playing with nails.
> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>> On May 6, 2019, at 3:34 PM, Roland Hayes
> <[6][6]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> Do we think he played with nails? Lutenists did not as I
> understand,
>> but
>>
>> I have always thought his lute pieces were merely
> arrangements of
>> guitar/theorbo pieces. For those instruments we can
> establish
> the
> use
>> of nails.
>>
>> And if deVisee played guitar with nails, then he most likely
> played
>> theorbo with nails as well. Yes? Glue on nails had yet to
> arrive on
> the
>> scene.
>>
>> Get [1]Outlook for Android
>>
>> This message is intended only for the use of the individual
> or
> entity
>> to which it is addressed, and may contain information that
> is
>> privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under
> applicable
&
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Dear collective wisdom,
From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around
since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, Corbetta
(who we know had
to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay his
fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visée had found
a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing their
strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and cleanly; In
the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, like
pearl[s]"
/Magnus
On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
wrote:
Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document good nail
polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I would
love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from telescope
lenses
and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The chamois
stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much better
in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among those
who
play with nails.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
<[1][1]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
wrote:
Hahahaha good point!
To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to remember
you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of years to
polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
<[2][2]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
Dear All:
Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to build
lutes and
craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to file
and
polish
their nails.
Jim Stimson
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
Original message
From: John Mardinly <[3][3]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Roland Hayes <[4][4]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
Cc: Lute List <[5][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of the
modern
files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly prepared
nails give
a terrible result for both sound and playability. My teacher
back
in
1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia
prepared
his
nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a saw-cut
slot in
it and a piece of chamois wrapped around the wooden block. The
nail was
then rubbed back and forth on the chamois over the slot, which
acted as
a track to guide the nail. When I began to study metallurgy and
the art
of cross-sectioning and polishing metals to view their
microstructure,
I experienced a revolution in materials to polish the nails
that
were
quickly adopted by many people playing with nails.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> On May 6, 2019, at 3:34 PM, Roland Hayes
<[6][6]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
wrote:
>
> Do we think he played with nails? Lutenists did not as I
understand,
> but
>
> I have always thought his lute pieces were merely
arrangements of
> guitar/theorbo pieces. For those instruments we can
establish
the
use
> of nails.
>
> And if deVisee played guitar with nails, then he most likely
played
> theorbo with nails as well. Yes? Glue on nails had yet to
arrive on
the
> scene.
>
> Get [1]Outlook for Android
>
> This message is intended only for the use of the individual
or
entity
> to which it is addressed, and may contain information that
is
> privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under
applicable
> law. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient,
or
> the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message
to the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination,
> distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
prohibited.
> If you have received this communication in error, please
notify us
> immediately by telephone and return the original message to
us at
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
After I pare my nails I step outside and find a brick sidewalk or wall
and sweep the back of my hand over it--the opposite direction you'd use
to scratch your fingers on the blackboard to irritate others. It's a
crude ceramic abrasive surface but it works. I could spend more time on
it for perfection, I suppose and it's a technology I and my renaissance
counterparts have/had available.
Sean
On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 1:46 PM John Mardinly <[1]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
wrote:
Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document good
nail
polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I
would
love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from telescope
lenses
and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The
chamois
stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much
better
in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among
those who
play with nails.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
<[1][2]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
wrote:
Hahahaha good point!
To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
remember
you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of years
to
polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
<[2][3]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
Dear All:
Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
build
lutes and
craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to file
and
polish
their nails.
Jim Stimson
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
Original message
From: John Mardinly <[3][4]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Roland Hayes <[4][5]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
Cc: Lute List <[5][6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of the
modern
files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly prepared
nails give
a terrible result for both sound and playability. My teacher
back
in
1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia
prepared
his
nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a
saw-cut
slot in
it and a piece of chamois wrapped around the wooden block.
The
nail was
then rubbed back and forth on the chamois over the slot,
which
acted as
a track to guide the nail. When I began to study metallurgy
and
the art
of cross-sectioning and polishing metals to view their
microstructure,
I experienced a revolution in materials to polish the nails
that
were
quickly adopted by many people playing with nails.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> On May 6, 2019, at 3:34 PM, Roland Hayes
<[6][7]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
wrote:
>
>Do we think he played with nails? Lutenists did not as
I
understand,
>but
>
>I have always thought his lute pieces were merely
arrangements of
>guitar/theorbo pieces. For those instruments we can
establish
the
use
>of nails.
>
>And if deVisee played guitar with nails, then he most
likely
played
>theorbo with nails as well. Yes? Glue on nails had yet
to
arrive on
the
>scene.
>
>Get [1]Outlook for Android
>
>This message is intended only for the use of the
individual
or
entity
>to which it is addressed, and may contain information
that is
>privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure
under
applicable
>law. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient,
or
>the employee or agent responsible for delivering the
message
to the
>intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination,
>distribution, or copying of this communication is
strictly
prohibited.
>If you have re
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Manicure has been around a long more than lute-playing.
RT
On 5/7/2019 4:44 PM, John Mardinly wrote:
Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document good nail
polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I would
love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from telescope lenses
and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The chamois
stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much better
in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among those who
play with nails.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran <[1]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
wrote:
Hahahaha good point!
To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to remember
you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of years to
polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
<[2]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
Dear All:
Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to build
lutes and
craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to file and
polish
their nails.
Jim Stimson
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
Original message
From: John Mardinly <[3]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Roland Hayes <[4]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
Cc: Lute List <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of the
modern
files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly prepared
nails give
a terrible result for both sound and playability. My teacher back
in
1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia prepared
his
nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a saw-cut
slot in
it and a piece of chamois wrapped around the wooden block. The
nail was
then rubbed back and forth on the chamois over the slot, which
acted as
a track to guide the nail. When I began to study metallurgy and
the art
of cross-sectioning and polishing metals to view their
microstructure,
I experienced a revolution in materials to polish the nails that
were
quickly adopted by many people playing with nails.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> On May 6, 2019, at 3:34 PM, Roland Hayes
<[6]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
wrote:
>
> Do we think he played with nails? Lutenists did not as I
understand,
> but
>
> I have always thought his lute pieces were merely
arrangements of
> guitar/theorbo pieces. For those instruments we can establish
the
use
> of nails.
>
> And if deVisee played guitar with nails, then he most likely
played
> theorbo with nails as well. Yes? Glue on nails had yet to
arrive on
the
> scene.
>
> Get [1]Outlook for Android
>
> This message is intended only for the use of the individual
or
entity
> to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is
> privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under
applicable
> law. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient,
or
> the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message
to the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination,
> distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
prohibited.
> If you have received this communication in error, please
notify us
> immediately by telephone and return the original message to
us at
> [7]i...@legalaidbuffalo.org --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[8]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aka.ms_ghei3
6=Dw
IBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joG
eE1
ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E���1m2M37zO3KCb5uTRtTMLYbh6c_tcz94RkH1fvv
Jqg
=ctn5UU2dPJsBEQxzJcHstOUeERuDkBtXhs4pd0M0t-c=
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
>
[9]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmo
uth.ed
u_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n
1Gy
cN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90Eï
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Actually this is very interesting. Here is link to a photo of Equisetum:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equisetum_hyemale#/media/File:Dried_Equisetum_hyemale.jpg
used for centuries in Japan to polish swords. I doubt that it would as well on
nails as modern abrasive paper.The first ’sandpaper’ was supposedly invented in
China in the 13th century. 'Glass paper' was manufactured in London in 1833 by
John Oakey, whose company had developed new adhesive techniques and processes,
enabling mass production, but modern ‘wet or dry’ paper with silicon carbide
grit was not invented until 1921 (by 3M). Metal finishing centuries ago in
Europe, like for polishing armor and swords, was done primarily using stones.
My father was a wood hobbyist, refinishing wood from the time I was a child,
and none of the abrasives he had access to in Philadelphia in the 60’s would
have been useful for for preparing nails for playing, by today’s standards.
So, I submit that if deVisee played with nails, it would not be anything at all
like a modern player using nails finished with modern 3M papers.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> On May 7, 2019, at 1:44 PM, John Mardinly wrote:
>
> Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document good nail
> polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I would
> love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from telescope lenses
> and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The chamois
> stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much better
> in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among those who
> play with nails.
>
> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>
> On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran <[1]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
> wrote:
>
> Hahahaha good point!
> To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to remember
> you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of years to
> polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
> ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
> <[2]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>
>Dear All:
> Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to build
> lutes and
>craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to file and
> polish
>their nails.
>Jim Stimson
>Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> Original message
>From: John Mardinly <[3]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
>Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
> To: Roland Hayes <[4]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
>Cc: Lute List <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
>More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of the
> modern
>files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly prepared
> nails give
>a terrible result for both sound and playability. My teacher back
> in
>1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia prepared
> his
>nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a saw-cut
> slot in
>it and a piece of chamois wrapped around the wooden block. The
> nail was
>then rubbed back and forth on the chamois over the slot, which
> acted as
>a track to guide the nail. When I began to study metallurgy and
> the art
>of cross-sectioning and polishing metals to view their
> microstructure,
>I experienced a revolution in materials to polish the nails that
> were
>quickly adopted by many people playing with nails.
>A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>> On May 6, 2019, at 3:34 PM, Roland Hayes
> <[6]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
>wrote:
>>
>> Do we think he played with nails? Lutenists did not as I
>understand,
>> but
>>
>> I have always thought his lute pieces were merely
> arrangements of
>> guitar/theorbo pieces. For those instruments we can establish
> the
>use
>> of nails.
>>
>> And if deVisee played guitar with nails, then he most likely
> played
>> theorbo with nails as well. Yes? Glue on nails had yet to
> arrive on
>the
>> scene.
>>
>> Get [1]Outlook for Android
>>
>> This message is intended only for the use of the individual
> or
>entity
>> to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is
>> privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under
>applicable
>> law. If the reader of this message is not the intended
> recipient,
>or
>> the employee or agent responsible for
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document good nail
polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I would
love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from telescope lenses
and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The chamois
stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much better
in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among those who
play with nails.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran <[1]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
wrote:
Hahahaha good point!
To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to remember
you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of years to
polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
<[2]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
Dear All:
Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to build
lutes and
craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to file and
polish
their nails.
Jim Stimson
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
Original message
From: John Mardinly <[3]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Roland Hayes <[4]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
Cc: Lute List <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of the
modern
files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly prepared
nails give
a terrible result for both sound and playability. My teacher back
in
1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia prepared
his
nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a saw-cut
slot in
it and a piece of chamois wrapped around the wooden block. The
nail was
then rubbed back and forth on the chamois over the slot, which
acted as
a track to guide the nail. When I began to study metallurgy and
the art
of cross-sectioning and polishing metals to view their
microstructure,
I experienced a revolution in materials to polish the nails that
were
quickly adopted by many people playing with nails.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> On May 6, 2019, at 3:34 PM, Roland Hayes
<[6]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
wrote:
>
> Do we think he played with nails? Lutenists did not as I
understand,
> but
>
> I have always thought his lute pieces were merely
arrangements of
> guitar/theorbo pieces. For those instruments we can establish
the
use
> of nails.
>
> And if deVisee played guitar with nails, then he most likely
played
> theorbo with nails as well. Yes? Glue on nails had yet to
arrive on
the
> scene.
>
> Get [1]Outlook for Android
>
> This message is intended only for the use of the individual
or
entity
> to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is
> privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under
applicable
> law. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient,
or
> the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message
to the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination,
> distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
prohibited.
> If you have received this communication in error, please
notify us
> immediately by telephone and return the original message to
us at
> [7]i...@legalaidbuffalo.org --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[8]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aka.ms_ghei3
6=Dw
IBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joG
eE1
ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E���1m2M37zO3KCb5uTRtTMLYbh6c_tcz94RkH1fvv
Jqg
=ctn5UU2dPJsBEQxzJcHstOUeERuDkBtXhs4pd0M0t-c=
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
>
[9]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmo
uth.ed
u_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n
1Gy
cN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E���1
m2M37
zO3KCb5uTRtTMLYbh6c_tcz94RkH1fvvJqg=9RqBccAKKlP3oVcnl4UNupxF1MvNw_
jgZ
4VyNvSGyDk=
References
1. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
2. mailto:jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. mailto:john.m
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Hahahaha good point!
To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to remember you that
also plants exist which were used for thousands of years to polish wood (and
maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am
07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute :
>
> Dear All:
>
> Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to build lutes and
> craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to file and polish
> their nails.
>
> Jim Stimson
>
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>
> Original message
> From: John Mardinly
> Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
> To: Roland Hayes
> Cc: Lute List
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
>
> More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of the modern
> files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly prepared nails give
> a terrible result for both sound and playability. My teacher back in
> 1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia prepared his
> nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a saw-cut slot in
> it and a piece of chamois wrapped around the wooden block. The nail was
> then rubbed back and forth on the chamois over the slot, which acted as
> a track to guide the nail. When I began to study metallurgy and the art
> of cross-sectioning and polishing metals to view their microstructure,
> I experienced a revolution in materials to polish the nails that were
> quickly adopted by many people playing with nails.
> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> > On May 6, 2019, at 3:34 PM, Roland Hayes
> wrote:
> >
> > Do we think he played with nails? Lutenists did not as I
> understand,
> > but
> >
> > I have always thought his lute pieces were merely arrangements of
> > guitar/theorbo pieces. For those instruments we can establish the
> use
> > of nails.
> >
> > And if deVisee played guitar with nails, then he most likely played
> > theorbo with nails as well. Yes? Glue on nails had yet to arrive on
> the
> > scene.
> >
> > Get [1]Outlook for Android
> >
> > This message is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity
> > to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is
> > privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under
> applicable
> > law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
> or
> > the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the
> > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> > distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
> prohibited.
> > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us
> > immediately by telephone and return the original message to us at
> > i...@legalaidbuffalo.org --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aka.ms_ghei36=Dw
> IBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1
> ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E���1m2M37zO3KCb5uTRtTMLYbh6c_tcz94RkH1fvvJqg
> =ctn5UU2dPJsBEQxzJcHstOUeERuDkBtXhs4pd0M0t-c=
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.ed
> u_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1Gy
> cN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E���1m2M37
> zO3KCb5uTRtTMLYbh6c_tcz94RkH1fvvJqg=9RqBccAKKlP3oVcnl4UNupxF1MvNw_jgZ
> 4VyNvSGyDk=
>
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Dear All:
Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to build lutes and
craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to file and polish
their nails.
Jim Stimson
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
Original message
From: John Mardinly
Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Roland Hayes
Cc: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of the modern
files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly prepared nails give
a terrible result for both sound and playability. My teacher back in
1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia prepared his
nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a saw-cut slot in
it and a piece of chamois wrapped around the wooden block. The nail was
then rubbed back and forth on the chamois over the slot, which acted as
a track to guide the nail. When I began to study metallurgy and the art
of cross-sectioning and polishing metals to view their microstructure,
I experienced a revolution in materials to polish the nails that were
quickly adopted by many people playing with nails.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> On May 6, 2019, at 3:34 PM, Roland Hayes
wrote:
>
> Do we think he played with nails? Lutenists did not as I
understand,
> but
>
> I have always thought his lute pieces were merely arrangements of
> guitar/theorbo pieces. For those instruments we can establish the
use
> of nails.
>
> And if deVisee played guitar with nails, then he most likely played
> theorbo with nails as well. Yes? Glue on nails had yet to arrive on
the
> scene.
>
> Get [1]Outlook for Android
>
> This message is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity
> to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is
> privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under
applicable
> law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
or
> the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
prohibited.
> If you have received this communication in error, please notify us
> immediately by telephone and return the original message to us at
> i...@legalaidbuffalo.org --
>
> References
>
> 1.
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aka.ms_ghei36=Dw
IBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1
ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E�1m2M37zO3KCb5uTRtTMLYbh6c_tcz94RkH1fvvJqg
=ctn5UU2dPJsBEQxzJcHstOUeERuDkBtXhs4pd0M0t-c=
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
>
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.ed
u_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1Gy
cN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E�1m2M37
zO3KCb5uTRtTMLYbh6c_tcz94RkH1fvvJqg=9RqBccAKKlP3oVcnl4UNupxF1MvNw_jgZ
4VyNvSGyDk=
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of the modern files and abrasives used to polish the nails. Badly prepared nails give a terrible result for both sound and playability. My teacher back in 1965 had studied with Segovia, and showed me how Segovia prepared his nails: after some filing, he used a wooden block with a saw-cut slot in it and a piece of chamois wrapped around the wooden block. The nail was then rubbed back and forth on the chamois over the slot, which acted as a track to guide the nail. When I began to study metallurgy and the art of cross-sectioning and polishing metals to view their microstructure, I experienced a revolution in materials to polish the nails that were quickly adopted by many people playing with nails. A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. > On May 6, 2019, at 3:34 PM, Roland Hayes wrote: > > Do we think he played with nails? Lutenists did not as I understand, > but > > I have always thought his lute pieces were merely arrangements of > guitar/theorbo pieces. For those instruments we can establish the use > of nails. > > And if deVisee played guitar with nails, then he most likely played > theorbo with nails as well. Yes? Glue on nails had yet to arrive on the > scene. > > Get [1]Outlook for Android > > This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity > to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is > privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable > law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or > the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately by telephone and return the original message to us at > i...@legalaidbuffalo.org -- > > References > > 1. > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aka.ms_ghei36=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=a61m2M37zO3KCb5uTRtTMLYbh6c_tcz94RkH1fvvJqg=ctn5UU2dPJsBEQxzJcHstOUeERuDkBtXhs4pd0M0t-c= > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=a61m2M37zO3KCb5uTRtTMLYbh6c_tcz94RkH1fvvJqg=9RqBccAKKlP3oVcnl4UNupxF1MvNw_jgZ4VyNvSGyDk=
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
This may be apocryphal, but I remember having read that Corbetta taught young Charles II in France after the Queen Mother fled there with him to avoid Cromwell and, after the restoration, Charles brought Corbetta to England. While in France Corbetta had acquired the franchise for an Italian game of chance similar to roulette which he brought with him to England. After a while in England, Corbetta's gambling franchise became so successful that the young nobles of England were gambling away their fortunes and their elders petitioned the king to send Corbetta back to France. Charles gave in to their petition, but not before giving Corbetta a large some of money and a wife to take with him. I've often wondered if the introduction of gambling as a past time of the wealthy may have been a factor in the disappearance of the soft-voiced instruments (the lutes, plucked keyboards, gambas, recorders, etc.) in the eighteenth century and their replacement by heavier, high tensioned string instruments and brass wind instruments etc. It seems that as long as music and dancing was the past time of the wealthy, said wealthy maintained musicians as part of their household staffs, but that all changed when gambling became the order of the day putting everybody out of work. In response the musicians invented the concert hall playing for all and sundry who could afford a ticket or subscription. Of course, then the idea would have been to put as many rear ends in as many seats as possible making the louder instruments the preferred instruments. This idea may have occurred to me while I sat at the back of an audience of 300 struggling and failing to hear a solo lute concert I paid $40 to attend. Remember Diana Spencer (Lady Di) was heading for a casino when she had that car accident that took her life. Gary On 2014-03-02 13:22, Monica Hall wrote: Many many thanks for all this fascinating information. Jourdan must have been quite an important person in Louis' household. I have only one comment - Corbetta died in 1681 so he can't have succeeded Jourdon in 1695 and in any case he spent most of his last 20 years in England although he visited France again on a number of occasions. Perhaps he gave Louis a few master classes when he was in Paris. Best Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Good morning to all, I exchanged a mail with Monica without realising that I had sent it to her only and not to her plus the list... My mistake ;-( but not very important anyway. I sometimes get confused in the choices to reply to messages... Anyway, Monica quoted an part of the article in Le Mercure Galant relating Corbetta's death in april 1681, and you can also read the original item directly from the Bibliothèque Nationale digital library Gallica at the following address : http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k62252133/f133.image Most of the Mercure Galant collection is available online and for downloading, which, as you know, is a mine of information about what we are all interested in ! The obituary of Corbetta refers to the participation of Corbetta to les plus pompeux spectacles at the request of Louis XIV. It is true that he appeared in his Italian colleague's (Lulli's) production le Ballet de la Galanterie du Temps in 1656. Corbetta had been invited to France by Mazarin and appeared in several entrées with guitars, including one in which he played along with the young Louis XIV himself. He also accompanied the famous Italian singer Anna Bergerotti and the French Anne de La Barre. The Petits Violons, a creation of Lulli when he took over from his Italian predecessor Lazarini, made their first appearance in this Ballet too. The text of the Ballet is available online in a later copy (1705) by Philidor and the manuscript version is dated 1660, but it prserves the names of those who took part in it, including Corbetti (sic) : http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1036755 (the Ballet in qustion begins on page 57 of the ms). Regarding the reason why de Visée was much more in demand than Louis Jourdan is unknown. Maybe Jourdan was not such a good guitar player after all and the king preferred the much more talented de Visée... Conjecture again as ever ;-) Incidentally, this 1656 Ballet also employed the theorbo players de La Barre, Vincent, Ytier (= Ithier), Grénerin, Le Moine and Hurel... What a dream team it must have been ;-) Best, Jean-Marie -- After the remarks made about Satoh's liner notes, I hate to cite any others, but in Philippe Beaussant's rather poignant notes to Hopkison Smith's Pieces de Theorbe (Astree 7733), claim is made that Corbetta became known to Louis when Lully had the two play together in le Ballet de la Galanterie du temps. I believe this was1656. Corbetta must have been proud of this performance, since it is mentioned in both prefaces to his book of 1671. I reason (conjecture again!) that guitar instructions from Corbetta to the King would have been earlier rather than later. Jourdan was succeeded by his son, Louis Anne, in 1695. So, why was it de Visee, not Jourdan, who was specifically called on to play the guitar to Louis while the latter was recovering from his almost-fatal illness of 1686? The guitar-loving king must have admired his playing. (Incidentally, it was while performing the Te Deum written to celebrate Louis' recovery from this illness that Lully suffered the wound that caused his death.) Peter On Mar 2, 2014, at 1:22 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Many many thanks for all this fascinating information. Jourdan must have been quite an important person in Louis' household. I have only one comment - Corbetta died in 1681 so he can't have succeeded Jourdon in 1695 and in any case he spent most of his last 20 years in England although he visited France again on a number of occasions. Perhaps he gave Louis a few master classes when he was in Paris. Best Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Jean-Marie, On Mon, 3/3/14, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Incidentally, this 1656 Ballet also employed the theorbo players de La Barre, Vincent, Ytier (= Ithier), Grénerin, Le Moine and Hurel... What a dream team it must have been ;-) I'm sure their voice leading must have been impeccable. ;-) Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
:-) ! For sure ! Jean-Marie -- Jean-Marie, On Mon, 3/3/14, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Incidentally, this 1656 Ballet also employed the theorbo players de La Barre, Vincent, Ytier (= Ithier), Grénerin, Le Moine and Hurel... What a dream team it must have been ;-) I'm sure their voice leading must have been impeccable. ;-) Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Some of this is true. Corbetta certainly followed Charles II to England in 1660 and he was granted various franchises to organize games of chance in London. These are documented in the Official State Papers for the relevant period. The bit about the elders petitioning the King to send him back to France seems to me to be apocryphal. Gambling was endemic in royal circles - not just in England but also in France I believe. He went back and forth to France regularly during 1660-1681. He was probably obliged to leave England in March 1673 when the Test Act was signed by Charles II requiring every office holder at Court to take Communion in the Church of England. Presumably Corbetta was Catholic. But he was back by the end of 1674 when he was involved in the production of the play Calisto in which various members of the royal family took part. The obituary does say that Charles granted Corbetta a pension and found him a wife. I haven't been able to find any record of the marriage. Without knowing the date it is difficult to trace records of the marriage which would probably have been conducted according to Catholic rites. I am currently working on a detailed biography of Corbetta but is is often the way - it keeps stalling. MOnica - Original Message - From: gary magg...@sonic.net To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 8:59 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee This may be apocryphal, but I remember having read that Corbetta taught young Charles II in France after the Queen Mother fled there with him to avoid Cromwell and, after the restoration, Charles brought Corbetta to England. While in France Corbetta had acquired the franchise for an Italian game of chance similar to roulette which he brought with him to England. After a while in England, Corbetta's gambling franchise became so successful that the young nobles of England were gambling away their fortunes and their elders petitioned the king to send Corbetta back to France. Charles gave in to their petition, but not before giving Corbetta a large some of money and a wife to take with him. I've often wondered if the introduction of gambling as a past time of the wealthy may have been a factor in the disappearance of the soft-voiced instruments (the lutes, plucked keyboards, gambas, recorders, etc.) in the eighteenth century and their replacement by heavier, high tensioned string instruments and brass wind instruments etc. It seems that as long as music and dancing was the past time of the wealthy, said wealthy maintained musicians as part of their household staffs, but that all changed when gambling became the order of the day putting everybody out of work. In response the musicians invented the concert hall playing for all and sundry who could afford a ticket or subscription. Of course, then the idea would have been to put as many rear ends in as many seats as possible making the louder instruments the preferred instruments. This idea may have occurred to me while I sat at the back of an audience of 300 struggling and failing to hear a solo lute concert I paid $40 to attend. Remember Diana Spencer (Lady Di) was heading for a casino when she had that car accident that took her life. Gary On 2014-03-02 13:22, Monica Hall wrote: Many many thanks for all this fascinating information. Jourdan must have been quite an important person in Louis' household. I have only one comment - Corbetta died in 1681 so he can't have succeeded Jourdon in 1695 and in any case he spent most of his last 20 years in England although he visited France again on a number of occasions. Perhaps he gave Louis a few master classes when he was in Paris. Best Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Yes - I often forget to copy the list in when replying to messages! Easily done. Thanks for the various references. The British Library has Mercure Galante which is where I got it from but the other things will be an invaluable. Corbetta must have known all the players who took part in Galanterie. He probably knew Bartolotti who was also in Paris and took part in various things. It was a small world. All the royal families and nobility were related to one another. One big clan. Best Monica - Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr To: Peter Danner peter...@aol.com; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: 'Lute List' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 9:24 AM Subject: Re: Re: [LUTE] De Visee Good morning to all, I exchanged a mail with Monica without realising that I had sent it to her only and not to her plus the list... My mistake ;-( but not very important anyway. I sometimes get confused in the choices to reply to messages... Anyway, Monica quoted an part of the article in Le Mercure Galant relating Corbetta's death in april 1681, and you can also read the original item directly from the Bibliothèque Nationale digital library Gallica at the following address : http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k62252133/f133.image Most of the Mercure Galant collection is available online and for downloading, which, as you know, is a mine of information about what we are all interested in ! The obituary of Corbetta refers to the participation of Corbetta to les plus pompeux spectacles at the request of Louis XIV. It is true that he appeared in his Italian colleague's (Lulli's) production le Ballet de la Galanterie du Temps in 1656. Corbetta had been invited to France by Mazarin and appeared in several entrées with guitars, including one in which he played along with the young Louis XIV himself. He also accompanied the famous Italian singer Anna Bergerotti and the French Anne de La Barre. The Petits Violons, a creation of Lulli when he took over from his Italian predecessor Lazarini, made their first appearance in this Ballet too. The text of the Ballet is available online in a later copy (1705) by Philidor and the manuscript version is dated 1660, but it prserves the names of those who took part in it, including Corbetti (sic) : http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1036755 (the Ballet in qustion begins on page 57 of the ms). Regarding the reason why de Visée was much more in demand than Louis Jourdan is unknown. Maybe Jourdan was not such a good guitar player after all and the king preferred the much more talented de Visée... Conjecture again as ever ;-) Incidentally, this 1656 Ballet also employed the theorbo players de La Barre, Vincent, Ytier (= Ithier), Grénerin, Le Moine and Hurel... What a dream team it must have been ;-) Best, Jean-Marie -- After the remarks made about Satoh's liner notes, I hate to cite any others, but in Philippe Beaussant's rather poignant notes to Hopkison Smith's Pieces de Theorbe (Astree 7733), claim is made that Corbetta became known to Louis when Lully had the two play together in le Ballet de la Galanterie du temps. I believe this was1656. Corbetta must have been proud of this performance, since it is mentioned in both prefaces to his book of 1671. I reason (conjecture again!) that guitar instructions from Corbetta to the King would have been earlier rather than later. Jourdan was succeeded by his son, Louis Anne, in 1695. So, why was it de Visee, not Jourdan, who was specifically called on to play the guitar to Louis while the latter was recovering from his almost-fatal illness of 1686? The guitar-loving king must have admired his playing. (Incidentally, it was while performing the Te Deum written to celebrate Louis' recovery from this illness that Lully suffered the wound that caused his death.) Peter On Mar 2, 2014, at 1:22 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Many many thanks for all this fascinating information. Jourdan must have been quite an important person in Louis' household. I have only one comment - Corbetta died in 1681 so he can't have succeeded Jourdon in 1695 and in any case he spent most of his last 20 years in England although he visited France again on a number of occasions. Perhaps he gave Louis a few master classes when he was in Paris. Best Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
On 03/03/14 9:28 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Yes - I often forget to copy the list in when replying to messages! Easily done. I do that all the time here too. Most email lists are configured so that the default is for the reply to go to the list, so I automatically hit the reply button instead of reply all. Wayne, could you reconfigure the default on the server so that it conforms to most other lists? Corbetta sounds like an interesting figure...I look forward to your biography of him. Those grand court spectacles must have been a lot of fun for the musicians as well as the audience, somewhat like the lute orchestras we participate in at Lute Society get-togethers. When else do duffers like me (and Louis XIV) get to play along with the hotshots of the day? Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de Visee
Hadnt he hurt his finger then? IIRC, someone told me he had injured a finger, so he played the whole concert with two fingers and thumb and I certainly didn't notice any ill effects. Or maybe it was his LH that was injured. I cant remember, other than it was magical. In those days it was kind of rare to hear a whole concert of one composer performed on a single instrument. On Mar 4, 2014, at 8:39 AM, Peter Danner peter...@aol.com wrote: One of my previous posts referred to Hoppy Smith's 1979 album of de Visee theorbo music. The previous year, 1978, I had found myself at the LSA seminar held at Dominican College in San Rafael, CA, in my capacity as president of the Lute Society of America and editor of its Journal. Hoppy was at this seminar, and I had the good fortune to draw him for a roommate. At that time, de Visee was very much in his active repertoire. The night before his major concert of the week, as I was turning in after a long day, he said he hoped I wouldn't mind if he stayed up to practice his theorbo. I tell you there is nothing quit so serene as being lulled to sleep by the strains of Sylvains de Couperin as performed live by a fine player in the same room. I have never forgotten the magic of that moment. Louis XIV himself couldn't have had it better, Such are the privileges of office. Peter Danner Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Dear all, I wonder if his name has something to do with the city of Visé, north east of Liège in Belgium? The dutch name is WEZET but in the Walloon language it is called Vizé. According to wikipedia in french, it has a long history It would add another lute/baroque guitar composer to our country ;)) All the best Greet -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Monica Hall Verzonden: zaterdag 1 maart 2014 12:39 Aan: Martyn Hodgson CC: Lutelist Onderwerp: [LUTE] De Visee Thank you very much for that Martyn. I don't know how many people have actually read these liner notes. Three whole pages are taken up with this biography - it is not until you turn to p.4 that you discover - Oh by the way - none of this is true. Some of the information is factually accurate. Some of it is not - which I think is inexcusable - Satoh is apparently unaware that Louis XIV died in 1715 and that when De Visee was appointed guitar teacher to the King it was to the 9 year old Louis XV. Some of it is obviously bollocks. When I first read these I queried on this list whether there was any evidence that De Visee was born in Portugal - not after all impossible - but did not get a satisfactory answer. I did my best to trace the source of this information - which had found its way into Wikipedia - perhaps that is where Satoh got the idea from. It seems that somebody some time ago suggested that De Visee's name implied that his family (rather than he himself) was Portuguese in origin. And so it goes. Endless pointless speculation masquerading as musicology, I can understand why David and and others who know Satoh personally and admire his playing might want to try and defend him. But I think that it needs to be said that people in his position - after all he taught at one of the most prestigious music colleges in the world until recently - shouldn't indulge in idle fantasy which may mislead the unwary. At the end of the day he has said nothing about the music or the manuscript from which it is taken which would have been much more interesting. As ever Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 8:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Perhaps you missed what Monica Hall wrote after quoting Satoh: “This is all my imagination and conjecture? She added Satoh's more misleading comment based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life In short, Satoh misleads by suggesting that his spurious conjectures, especially on birth place, are somehow based on historical sources. MH From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 28 February 2014, 23:32 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Feb 28, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: I think you are being disingenious. What Satoh actually says is This is all my imagination and conjecture, based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life. How is the reader supposed to know what is based on these few documents and what is idle fantasy? I think “This is all my imagination and conjecture” pretty much gives it away. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
What I find interesting in all this (Satoh’s exercise) is why De Visée needs to be foreign. Is this to align him with Lully (the Italian)? In the light of the long tradition of lute playing in France, making De Visée foreign does not seem to elevate his status. In fact, historical writers in some circles belittled non-Parisian musicians. Or could this simply be the modern view of foreign is better? Shaun On 2 Mar 2014, at 10:05 pm, Greet Schamp greet.sch...@gmail.com wrote: Dear all, I wonder if his name has something to do with the city of Visé, north east of Liège in Belgium? The dutch name is WEZET but in the Walloon language it is called Vizé. According to wikipedia in french, it has a long history It would add another lute/baroque guitar composer to our country ;)) All the best Greet -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Monica Hall Verzonden: zaterdag 1 maart 2014 12:39 Aan: Martyn Hodgson CC: Lutelist Onderwerp: [LUTE] De Visee Thank you very much for that Martyn. I don't know how many people have actually read these liner notes. Three whole pages are taken up with this biography - it is not until you turn to p.4 that you discover - Oh by the way - none of this is true. Some of the information is factually accurate. Some of it is not - which I think is inexcusable - Satoh is apparently unaware that Louis XIV died in 1715 and that when De Visee was appointed guitar teacher to the King it was to the 9 year old Louis XV. Some of it is obviously bollocks. When I first read these I queried on this list whether there was any evidence that De Visee was born in Portugal - not after all impossible - but did not get a satisfactory answer. I did my best to trace the source of this information - which had found its way into Wikipedia - perhaps that is where Satoh got the idea from. It seems that somebody some time ago suggested that De Visee's name implied that his family (rather than he himself) was Portuguese in origin. And so it goes. Endless pointless speculation masquerading as musicology, I can understand why David and and others who know Satoh personally and admire his playing might want to try and defend him. But I think that it needs to be said that people in his position - after all he taught at one of the most prestigious music colleges in the world until recently - shouldn't indulge in idle fantasy which may mislead the unwary. At the end of the day he has said nothing about the music or the manuscript from which it is taken which would have been much more interesting. As ever Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 8:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Perhaps you missed what Monica Hall wrote after quoting Satoh: “This is all my imagination and conjecture? She added Satoh's more misleading comment based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life In short, Satoh misleads by suggesting that his spurious conjectures, especially on birth place, are somehow based on historical sources. MH From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 28 February 2014, 23:32 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Feb 28, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: I think you are being disingenious. What Satoh actually says is This is all my imagination and conjecture, based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life. How is the reader supposed to know what is based on these few documents and what is idle fantasy? I think “This is all my imagination and conjecture” pretty much gives it away. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Well that is possible I suppose. It may even account for the fact that Castillion - who hied from Liege - copied the whole of De Visee's 1682 into his earlier manuscript now in the Liege Conservatoire. But that is just my imagination and conjecture and not based on any surviving documents The truth is that at present we simply don't know where he came from and we ought accept that until some real evidence comes to light. Perhaps you should start checking church records to see if he was baptised in Vize. Cheers Monica. - Original Message - From: Greet Schamp greet.sch...@gmail.com To: 'Monica Hall' mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; 'Martyn Hodgson' hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 11:05 AM Subject: RE: [LUTE] De Visee Dear all, I wonder if his name has something to do with the city of Visé, north east of Liège in Belgium? The dutch name is WEZET but in the Walloon language it is called Vizé. According to wikipedia in french, it has a long history It would add another lute/baroque guitar composer to our country ;)) All the best Greet -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Monica Hall Verzonden: zaterdag 1 maart 2014 12:39 Aan: Martyn Hodgson CC: Lutelist Onderwerp: [LUTE] De Visee Thank you very much for that Martyn. I don't know how many people have actually read these liner notes. Three whole pages are taken up with this biography - it is not until you turn to p.4 that you discover - Oh by the way - none of this is true. Some of the information is factually accurate. Some of it is not - which I think is inexcusable - Satoh is apparently unaware that Louis XIV died in 1715 and that when De Visee was appointed guitar teacher to the King it was to the 9 year old Louis XV. Some of it is obviously bollocks. When I first read these I queried on this list whether there was any evidence that De Visee was born in Portugal - not after all impossible - but did not get a satisfactory answer. I did my best to trace the source of this information - which had found its way into Wikipedia - perhaps that is where Satoh got the idea from. It seems that somebody some time ago suggested that De Visee's name implied that his family (rather than he himself) was Portuguese in origin. And so it goes. Endless pointless speculation masquerading as musicology, I can understand why David and and others who know Satoh personally and admire his playing might want to try and defend him. But I think that it needs to be said that people in his position - after all he taught at one of the most prestigious music colleges in the world until recently - shouldn't indulge in idle fantasy which may mislead the unwary. At the end of the day he has said nothing about the music or the manuscript from which it is taken which would have been much more interesting. As ever Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 8:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Perhaps you missed what Monica Hall wrote after quoting Satoh: “This is all my imagination and conjecture? She added Satoh's more misleading comment based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life In short, Satoh misleads by suggesting that his spurious conjectures, especially on birth place, are somehow based on historical sources. MH From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 28 February 2014, 23:32 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Feb 28, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: I think you are being disingenious. What Satoh actually says is This is all my imagination and conjecture, based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life. How is the reader supposed to know what is based on these few documents and what is idle fantasy? I think “This is all my imagination and conjecture” pretty much gives it away. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Well - Portugal is next door to Spain and shares its exotic reputation and supposed affinity to the guitar. But De Visee was primarily a lutenist and as you say there was long tradition of playing the lute in France. It is much more likely that he was - well French - and learnt the lute from Gaultier, Pinel or whoever was in the ascendency in his youth. Monica - Original Message - From: Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 11:54 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee What I find interesting in all this (Satoh’s exercise) is why De Visée needs to be foreign. Is this to align him with Lully (the Italian)? In the light of the long tradition of lute playing in France, making De Visée foreign does not seem to elevate his status. In fact, historical writers in some circles belittled non-Parisian musicians. Or could this simply be the modern view of foreign is better? Shaun On 2 Mar 2014, at 10:05 pm, Greet Schamp greet.sch...@gmail.com wrote: Dear all, I wonder if his name has something to do with the city of Visé, north east of Liège in Belgium? The dutch name is WEZET but in the Walloon language it is called Vizé. According to wikipedia in french, it has a long history It would add another lute/baroque guitar composer to our country ;)) All the best Greet -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Monica Hall Verzonden: zaterdag 1 maart 2014 12:39 Aan: Martyn Hodgson CC: Lutelist Onderwerp: [LUTE] De Visee Thank you very much for that Martyn. I don't know how many people have actually read these liner notes. Three whole pages are taken up with this biography - it is not until you turn to p.4 that you discover - Oh by the way - none of this is true. Some of the information is factually accurate. Some of it is not - which I think is inexcusable - Satoh is apparently unaware that Louis XIV died in 1715 and that when De Visee was appointed guitar teacher to the King it was to the 9 year old Louis XV. Some of it is obviously bollocks. When I first read these I queried on this list whether there was any evidence that De Visee was born in Portugal - not after all impossible - but did not get a satisfactory answer. I did my best to trace the source of this information - which had found its way into Wikipedia - perhaps that is where Satoh got the idea from. It seems that somebody some time ago suggested that De Visee's name implied that his family (rather than he himself) was Portuguese in origin. And so it goes. Endless pointless speculation masquerading as musicology, I can understand why David and and others who know Satoh personally and admire his playing might want to try and defend him. But I think that it needs to be said that people in his position - after all he taught at one of the most prestigious music colleges in the world until recently - shouldn't indulge in idle fantasy which may mislead the unwary. At the end of the day he has said nothing about the music or the manuscript from which it is taken which would have been much more interesting. As ever Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 8:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Perhaps you missed what Monica Hall wrote after quoting Satoh: “This is all my imagination and conjecture? She added Satoh's more misleading comment based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life In short, Satoh misleads by suggesting that his spurious conjectures, especially on birth place, are somehow based on historical sources. MH From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 28 February 2014, 23:32 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Feb 28, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: I think you are being disingenious. What Satoh actually says is This is all my imagination and conjecture, based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life. How is the reader supposed to know what is based on these few documents and what is idle fantasy? I think “This is all my imagination and conjecture” pretty much gives it away. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Maybe Visée first met Louis XIV who stayed in Vizé for a couple of days in the then famous Maison Houbart in 1672 and 1675, during the Franco-Dutch War... He was with the musketeer d'Artagnan who got killed in 1673 during the siege of Maastricht. Real facts but the rest is pure conjecture and my imagination, of course... ;-) ! Have a nice sunday, Jean-Marie -- Dear all, I wonder if his name has something to do with the city of Visé, north east of Liège in Belgium? The dutch name is WEZET but in the Walloon language it is called Vizé. According to wikipedia in french, it has a long history It would add another lute/baroque guitar composer to our country ;)) All the best Greet -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Monica Hall Verzonden: zaterdag 1 maart 2014 12:39 Aan: Martyn Hodgson CC: Lutelist Onderwerp: [LUTE] De Visee Thank you very much for that Martyn. I don't know how many people have actually read these liner notes. Three whole pages are taken up with this biography - it is not until you turn to p.4 that you discover - Oh by the way - none of this is true. Some of the information is factually accurate. Some of it is not - which I think is inexcusable - Satoh is apparently unaware that Louis XIV died in 1715 and that when De Visee was appointed guitar teacher to the King it was to the 9 year old Louis XV. Some of it is obviously bollocks. When I first read these I queried on this list whether there was any evidence that De Visee was born in Portugal - not after all impossible - but did not get a satisfactory answer. I did my best to trace the source of this information - which had found its way into Wikipedia - perhaps that is where Satoh got the idea from. It seems that somebody some time ago suggested that De Visee's name implied that his family (rather than he himself) was Portuguese in origin. And so it goes. Endless pointless speculation masquerading as musicology, I can understand why David and and others who know Satoh personally and admire his playing might want to try and defend him. But I think that it needs to be said that people in his position - after all he taught at one of the most prestigious music colleges in the world until recently - shouldn't indulge in idle fantasy which may mislead the unwary. At the end of the day he has said nothing about the music or the manuscript from which it is taken which would have been much more interesting. As ever Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 8:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Perhaps you missed what Monica Hall wrote after quoting Satoh: “This is all my imagination and conjecture? She added Satoh's more misleading comment based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life In short, Satoh misleads by suggesting that his spurious conjectures, especially on birth place, are somehow based on historical sources. MH From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 28 February 2014, 23:32 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Feb 28, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: I think you are being disingenious. What Satoh actually says is This is all my imagination and conjecture, based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life. How is the reader supposed to know what is based on these few documents and what is idle fantasy? I think “This is all my imagination and conjecture” pretty much gives it away. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
The trail is getting hotter Enjoy your day of rest Monica - Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr To: Greet Schamp greet.sch...@gmail.com; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: 'Lute List' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Maybe Visée first met Louis XIV who stayed in Vizé for a couple of days in the then famous Maison Houbart in 1672 and 1675, during the Franco-Dutch War... He was with the musketeer d'Artagnan who got killed in 1673 during the siege of Maastricht. Real facts but the rest is pure conjecture and my imagination, of course... ;-) ! Have a nice sunday, Jean-Marie -- Dear all, I wonder if his name has something to do with the city of Visé, north east of Liège in Belgium? The dutch name is WEZET but in the Walloon language it is called Vizé. According to wikipedia in french, it has a long history It would add another lute/baroque guitar composer to our country ;)) All the best Greet -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Monica Hall Verzonden: zaterdag 1 maart 2014 12:39 Aan: Martyn Hodgson CC: Lutelist Onderwerp: [LUTE] De Visee Thank you very much for that Martyn. I don't know how many people have actually read these liner notes. Three whole pages are taken up with this biography - it is not until you turn to p.4 that you discover - Oh by the way - none of this is true. Some of the information is factually accurate. Some of it is not - which I think is inexcusable - Satoh is apparently unaware that Louis XIV died in 1715 and that when De Visee was appointed guitar teacher to the King it was to the 9 year old Louis XV. Some of it is obviously bollocks. When I first read these I queried on this list whether there was any evidence that De Visee was born in Portugal - not after all impossible - but did not get a satisfactory answer. I did my best to trace the source of this information - which had found its way into Wikipedia - perhaps that is where Satoh got the idea from. It seems that somebody some time ago suggested that De Visee's name implied that his family (rather than he himself) was Portuguese in origin. And so it goes. Endless pointless speculation masquerading as musicology, I can understand why David and and others who know Satoh personally and admire his playing might want to try and defend him. But I think that it needs to be said that people in his position - after all he taught at one of the most prestigious music colleges in the world until recently - shouldn't indulge in idle fantasy which may mislead the unwary. At the end of the day he has said nothing about the music or the manuscript from which it is taken which would have been much more interesting. As ever Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 8:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Perhaps you missed what Monica Hall wrote after quoting Satoh: “This is all my imagination and conjecture? She added Satoh's more misleading comment based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life In short, Satoh misleads by suggesting that his spurious conjectures, especially on birth place, are somehow based on historical sources. MH From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 28 February 2014, 23:32 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Feb 28, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: I think you are being disingenious. What Satoh actually says is This is all my imagination and conjecture, based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life. How is the reader supposed to know what is based on these few documents and what is idle fantasy? I think “This is all my imagination and conjecture” pretty much gives it away. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Monica is quite right in pointing out that de Visee was never Louis XIV's official guitar teacher, which brings up another question. It has been years since I looked into the matter, but I find this in my notes. Perhaps someone can remind me of the Benoit citation. It identifies de la Salle as Spanish: From 1650 Bernard Jourdan de la Salle, a native of Saint-Luc, was the King's teacher of the guitar. He was replaced by his son Louis Anne in 1695. 1681. Juillet. Naturalité pour Bernard Jourdan dit la Salle, natif de St. Luc en Espagne, faisant profession de la Religion catholique, apostolique et romanine. Benoit, p.79. Just who was this Bernard Jourdan de la Salle, and where was Saint-Luc? Why is there no surviving music by him? Peter Danner To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
On Sun, 2 Mar 2014 15:06:29 +0100, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote Maybe Visée first met Louis XIV who stayed in Vizé for a couple of days in the then famous Maison Houbart in 1672 and 1675, during the Franco-Dutch War... He was with the musketeer d'Artagnan who got killed in 1673 during the siege of Maastricht. .. being killed just a few feet away from a certain Captian Churchill (which later became the Duke of Malborough) - what a small world ;-) Real facts but Yes, indeed. D'Artagnan's biography was first published between 1700 and 1701 as The Memoirs of M. d'Artagnan, Captain-Lieutnant in the First Company of the King's Musketeers, Cologne/Amsterdam, by Gatien de Courtliz de Sandras [1]. the rest is pure conjecture and my imagination, of course... ;-) ! As always ;-) Have a nice sunday, Same to you RalfD [1] Richard Cohen, By the Sword, A History of Gladiators, Musketeers .., Random House, 2002. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
I can only tell you what James Tyler has said in his book The guitar and its music (2002) p. 108 as I don't have a copy of Benoit. Jourdan de la Salle had been Louis XIVs' Maitre de guittarre at least since 1650 and he died in 1695. He was then succeeded by his son Louis who died in 1620. Louis Jourdan was succeeded by De Visee.by which time of course Louis XIV had died and Louis XV had succeeded him. Jourdan apparently was from Sanlucar de Barrameda in the province of Cadiz. This is a small town on the coast. The reference which Jim gives is Benoit Dictionnairede la musique en France aux XVIIe et XVIIIe 1992 p. 728 I am not sure about this and perhaps Jean-Marie can enlighten us - but I wonder if Maitre de guitarre doesn't necessarily mean that he actually taught Louis to play. More that he was there to play to the King in his leisure hours. He may not have been a composer but a lot of stuff in manuscript is anonymous and it may have been difficult to get guitar music printed in France before engraving rather than printing from musical type became common. Best Monica - Original Message - From: Peter Danner peter...@aol.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 3:04 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Monica is quite right in pointing out that de Visee was never Louis XIV's official guitar teacher, which brings up another question. It has been years since I looked into the matter, but I find this in my notes. Perhaps someone can remind me of the Benoit citation. It identifies de la Salle as Spanish: From 1650 Bernard Jourdan de la Salle, a native of Saint-Luc, was the King's teacher of the guitar. He was replaced by his son Louis Anne in 1695. 1681. Juillet. Naturalité pour Bernard Jourdan dit la Salle, natif de St. Luc en Espagne, faisant profession de la Religion catholique, apostolique et romanine. Benoit, p.79. Just who was this Bernard Jourdan de la Salle, and where was Saint-Luc? Why is there no surviving music by him? Peter Danner To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Marcelle Benoit quotes a document of 1695 from the Archives Nationales where the surviving papers of the royal household are kept. It is from the Secrétariat de la Maison du Roi and on march 14th 1695, f° 38v in the series O.1 39 there is this allusion to Jourdan : Retenüe de joüeur de guitarre du Roy, pour le Sr de la Salle Ayant egard aux services que feu Bernard Jourdan de la Salle nous a rendu depuis l'année 1650 que nous le choisismes pour nous enseigner a joüer de la guitarre, nous avons bien voulu, en cette consideration, conserver lad. charge a Louis Jourdan de la Salle, son fils, et luy contnuer les gages ordinaires de 1200 livres tournois qui y sont attribuez... We learn that Louis XIV started to learn the guitar when he was 12 years old and that his teacher, who had come to France 10 years before the king's marriage with his Spanish cousin Marie-Thérèse d'Autriche, was dead by 1695 (feu Bernard Jourdan de la Salle). Marcelle Benoît in her Dictionnaire de la musique en France aux XVIIe et XVIIIe siècles writes that he was a native a Sanlucar de Barrameda in the province of Cadiz, as Monica justly quotes. Louis, his son who succeded him in his functions, was born in 1659 and Louis XIV was his godfather and Anne d'Autriche - the king's mother - his godmother. Bernard married a certain Elizabeth Lesueur and had a daughter Elizabeth Laurente in 1660. That's about the only facts we have about Bernard Jourdan de la Salle, who was naturalized in 1681, and the act where this is recorded says that he was natif de St Luc en Espagne (=Sanluccar) faisant profession de la Religion catholique, apostolique et romaine (O.1 25, f° 203 242) In 1684 he was paid 600 lt, like Champion, Ithier, Marais etc... and was qualified La SAlle, maître à jouer de la guitarre. Same thing in 1686. In 1688 he received 1200 lt, wheres the other musiciens of la Chambre had only 600 lt. In 1689, he had only 600 lt. In 1691, he received 1200 lt. againn more than Michel Lambert, the singer and Lully father-in-law who only got 720 lt... In 1693, he is called Sieur de la Salle and is listed for a sum of 600 lt with a comment n'a pas été payé faute de de fonds dans l'estat de distribution ( ;-) public money shortage not a new problem it seems...) Eventually, in 1695 the money (1200 lt.) is delivered to Louis Jourdand de la Salle, maistre à jouer de la guitarre du Roy, au lieu de feu Bernard Jourdan de la Salle son père. Louis XIV must have been a rather gifted sutdent as, after his death, his brother's wife Elisabeth-Charlotte de Bavière wrote in a letter : il ne connaissait aucune note de musique, mais il avait l'oreile juste et il jouait de la guitare mieux qu'un maître, arangeant sur cet instrument tout ce qu'il voulait... According to M. Benoit, Francisque Corbett (= Corbetta) seems to have been Bernard Jourdan's successor in spite of Louis Jourdan, legal heir of his father's functions. End of story. No music so far has been unearthed that could be attributed to one of the two Jourdan de la Salle... We were more lucky with another Spaniard who had settled inFrance, Luys de Briceño, but that is another story ;-) ! All the best, Jean-Marie PS: all the information is to be found in Marcelle Benoit, Versailles et les musiciens du roi and Musiques de cour, chapelle, chambre, écurie; recueil de documents, Paris : Picard, 1971 and her Dictionnaire, Paris : Fayard, 1992 -- I can only tell you what James Tyler has said in his book The guitar and its music (2002) p. 108 as I don't have a copy of Benoit. Jourdan de la Salle had been Louis XIVs' Maitre de guittarre at least since 1650 and he died in 1695. He was then succeeded by his son Louis who died in 1620. Louis Jourdan was succeeded by De Visee.by which time of course Louis XIV had died and Louis XV had succeeded him. Jourdan apparently was from Sanlucar de Barrameda in the province of Cadiz. This is a small town on the coast. The reference which Jim gives is Benoit Dictionnairede la musique en France aux XVIIe et XVIIIe 1992 p. 728 I am not sure about this and perhaps Jean-Marie can enlighten us - but I wonder if Maitre de guitarre doesn't necessarily mean that he actually taught Louis to play. More that he was there to play to the King in his leisure hours. He may not have been a composer but a lot of stuff in manuscript is anonymous and it may have been difficult to get guitar music printed in France before engraving rather than printing from musical type became common. Best Monica - Original Message - From: Peter Danner peter...@aol.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 3:04 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Monica is quite right in pointing out that de Visee was never Louis XIV's official guitar teacher, which brings up another question. It has been years since I looked into the matter, but I find this in my notes
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Thank you for this, Jean-Marie. Precisely the information I was looking for. I remember examining the Marcelle Beboit volumes in the Stanford library years ago. Louis XIV did indeed have some ability on the guitar from contemporary accounts, and Voltaire is later said to have stated that the only things Louis XIV learned to do well were to dance and play the guitar. On French-Spanish relationships, it might be worth pointing out that Louis' mother, Anne of Austria, in spite of her name, was a Spanish Habsburg, the daughter of King Philip III. Furthermore, Louis married the Infanta, Maria Teresa, daughter of Philip IV of Spain. In his biography of Louis XIV, Olivier Bernier mentions that she arrived in France not knowing a word of French and throughout her life always spoke it with a heavy Spanish accent (p. 68). She probably brought Spanish musicians in her retinue. Peter Danner On Mar 2, 2014, at 9:13 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Marcelle Benoit quotes a document of 1695 from the Archives Nationales where the surviving papers of the royal household are kept. It is from the Secrétariat de la Maison du Roi and on march 14th 1695, f° 38v in the series O.1 39 there is this allusion to Jourdan : Retenüe de joüeur de guitarre du Roy, pour le Sr de la Salle Ayant egard aux services que feu Bernard Jourdan de la Salle nous a rendu depuis l'année 1650 que nous le choisismes pour nous enseigner a joüer de la guitarre, nous avons bien voulu, en cette consideration, conserver lad. charge a Louis Jourdan de la Salle, son fils, et luy contnuer les gages ordinaires de 1200 livres tournois qui y sont attribuez... We learn that Louis XIV started to learn the guitar when he was 12 years old and that his teacher, who had come to France 10 years before the king's marriage with his Spanish cousin Marie-Thérèse d'Autriche, was dead by 1695 (feu Bernard Jourdan de la Salle). Marcelle Benoît in her Dictionnaire de la musique en France aux XVIIe et XVIIIe siècles writes that he was a native a Sanlucar de Barrameda in the province of Cadiz, as Monica justly quotes. Louis, his son who succeded him in his functions, was born in 1659 and Louis XIV was his godfather and Anne d'Autriche - the king's mother - his godmother. Bernard married a certain Elizabeth Lesueur and had a daughter Elizabeth Laurente in 1660. That's about the only facts we have about Bernard Jourdan de la Salle, who was naturalized in 1681, and the act where this is recorded says that he was natif de St Luc en Espagne (=Sanluccar) faisant profession de la Religion catholique, apostolique et romaine (O.1 25, f° 203 242) In 1684 he was paid 600 lt, like Champion, Ithier, Marais etc... and was qualified La SAlle, maître à jouer de la guitarre. Same thing in 1686. In 1688 he received 1200 lt, wheres the other musiciens of la Chambre had only 600 lt. In 1689, he had only 600 lt. In 1691, he received 1200 lt. againn more than Michel Lambert, the singer and Lully father-in-law who only got 720 lt... In 1693, he is called Sieur de la Salle and is listed for a sum of 600 lt with a comment n'a pas été payé faute de de fonds dans l'estat de distribution ( ;-) public money shortage not a new problem it seems...) Eventually, in 1695 the money (1200 lt.) is delivered to Louis Jourdand de la Salle, maistre à jouer de la guitarre du Roy, au lieu de feu Bernard Jourdan de la Salle son père. Louis XIV must have been a rather gifted sutdent as, after his death, his brother's wife Elisabeth-Charlotte de Bavière wrote in a letter : il ne connaissait aucune note de musique, mais il avait l'oreile juste et il jouait de la guitare mieux qu'un maître, arangeant sur cet instrument tout ce qu'il voulait... According to M. Benoit, Francisque Corbett (= Corbetta) seems to have been Bernard Jourdan's successor in spite of Louis Jourdan, legal heir of his father's functions. End of story. No music so far has been unearthed that could be attributed to one of the two Jourdan de la Salle... We were more lucky with another Spaniard who had settled inFrance, Luys de Briceño, but that is another story ;-) ! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
On French-Spanish relationships, it might be worth pointing out that Louis' mother, Anne of Austria, in spite of her name, was a Spanish Habsburg, the daughter of King Philip III. Furthermore, Louis married the Infanta, Maria Teresa, daughter of Philip IV of Spain. In his biography of Louis XIV, Olivier Bernier mentions that she arrived in France not knowing a word of French and throughout her life always spoke it with a heavy Spanish accent (p. 68). She probably brought Spanish musicians in her retinue. Peter Danner Precisely one of the possible reasons why Briceño chose to settle in Paris and had his book published by Pedro Ballard in 1626. Anne and her Spanish retinue had been in France for more than ten years by then... Another clear hint at the Spanish influence is the number of Airs de Cour in Spanish by Gabriel Bataille and by Moulinié (with guitar tablature). There is a short but very good chapter on this subject by Mrs Georgie Durosoir who is one of the best specialists of the 17th century in France in a book entitled L'âge d'or de l'influence espagnole; la France et l'Espagne à l'époque d'Anne d'Autriche - 1615 - 1666 (pp. 385 - 392). Mont-de-Marsan : Editions Interuniversitaires, 1991 A fascinating period ! Best wishes, Jean-Marie To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
On Mar 1, 2014, at 9:29 AM, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: before you know it, it's a known fact that de Visee was from Portugual. My offhand remark that started this thread was based on a known fact that I gleaned from the liner notes of a Segovia LP (you may commence giggling), when I was not old enough to distrust such things: Visee was a Spaniard, born Roberto Viseo. I never had occasion to inquire further, so until a few days I still believed it. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Many many thanks for all this fascinating information. Jourdan must have been quite an important person in Louis' household. I have only one comment - Corbetta died in 1681 so he can't have succeeded Jourdon in 1695 and in any case he spent most of his last 20 years in England although he visited France again on a number of occasions. Perhaps he gave Louis a few master classes when he was in Paris. Best Monica - Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Peter Danner peter...@aol.com Cc: 'Lute List' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Marcelle Benoit quotes a document of 1695 from the Archives Nationales where the surviving papers of the royal household are kept. It is from the Secrétariat de la Maison du Roi and on march 14th 1695, f° 38v in the series O.1 39 there is this allusion to Jourdan : Retenüe de joüeur de guitarre du Roy, pour le Sr de la Salle Ayant egard aux services que feu Bernard Jourdan de la Salle nous a rendu depuis l'année 1650 que nous le choisismes pour nous enseigner a joüer de la guitarre, nous avons bien voulu, en cette consideration, conserver lad. charge a Louis Jourdan de la Salle, son fils, et luy contnuer les gages ordinaires de 1200 livres tournois qui y sont attribuez... We learn that Louis XIV started to learn the guitar when he was 12 years old and that his teacher, who had come to France 10 years before the king's marriage with his Spanish cousin Marie-Thérèse d'Autriche, was dead by 1695 (feu Bernard Jourdan de la Salle). Marcelle Benoît in her Dictionnaire de la musique en France aux XVIIe et XVIIIe siècles writes that he was a native a Sanlucar de Barrameda in the province of Cadiz, as Monica justly quotes. Louis, his son who succeded him in his functions, was born in 1659 and Louis XIV was his godfather and Anne d'Autriche - the king's mother - his godmother. Bernard married a certain Elizabeth Lesueur and had a daughter Elizabeth Laurente in 1660. That's about the only facts we have about Bernard Jourdan de la Salle, who was naturalized in 1681, and the act where this is recorded says that he was natif de St Luc en Espagne (=Sanluccar) faisant profession de la Religion catholique, apostolique et romaine (O.1 25, f° 203 242) In 1684 he was paid 600 lt, like Champion, Ithier, Marais etc... and was qualified La SAlle, maître à jouer de la guitarre. Same thing in 1686. In 1688 he received 1200 lt, wheres the other musiciens of la Chambre had only 600 lt. In 1689, he had only 600 lt. In 1691, he received 1200 lt. againn more than Michel Lambert, the singer and Lully father-in-law who only got 720 lt... In 1693, he is called Sieur de la Salle and is listed for a sum of 600 lt with a comment n'a pas été payé faute de de fonds dans l'estat de distribution ( ;-) public money shortage not a new problem it seems...) Eventually, in 1695 the money (1200 lt.) is delivered to Louis Jourdand de la Salle, maistre à jouer de la guitarre du Roy, au lieu de feu Bernard Jourdan de la Salle son père. Louis XIV must have been a rather gifted sutdent as, after his death, his brother's wife Elisabeth-Charlotte de Bavière wrote in a letter : il ne connaissait aucune note de musique, mais il avait l'oreile juste et il jouait de la guitare mieux qu'un maître, arangeant sur cet instrument tout ce qu'il voulait... According to M. Benoit, Francisque Corbett (= Corbetta) seems to have been Bernard Jourdan's successor in spite of Louis Jourdan, legal heir of his father's functions. End of story. No music so far has been unearthed that could be attributed to one of the two Jourdan de la Salle... We were more lucky with another Spaniard who had settled inFrance, Luys de Briceño, but that is another story ;-) ! All the best, Jean-Marie PS: all the information is to be found in Marcelle Benoit, Versailles et les musiciens du roi and Musiques de cour, chapelle, chambre, écurie; recueil de documents, Paris : Picard, 1971 and her Dictionnaire, Paris : Fayard, 1992 -- I can only tell you what James Tyler has said in his book The guitar and its music (2002) p. 108 as I don't have a copy of Benoit. Jourdan de la Salle had been Louis XIVs' Maitre de guittarre at least since 1650 and he died in 1695. He was then succeeded by his son Louis who died in 1620. Louis Jourdan was succeeded by De Visee.by which time of course Louis XIV had died and Louis XV had succeeded him. Jourdan apparently was from Sanlucar de Barrameda in the province of Cadiz. This is a small town on the coast. The reference which Jim gives is Benoit Dictionnairede la musique en France aux XVIIe et XVIIIe 1992 p. 728 I am not sure about this and perhaps Jean-Marie can enlighten us - but I wonder if Maitre de guitarre doesn't necessarily mean that he actually taught Louis to play. More that he was there to play to the King in his leisure hours. He may not have been
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
After the remarks made about Satoh's liner notes, I hate to cite any others, but in Philippe Beaussant's rather poignant notes to Hopkison Smith's Pieces de Theorbe (Astree 7733), claim is made that Corbetta became known to Louis when Lully had the two play together in le Ballet de la Galanterie du temps. I believe this was1656. Corbetta must have been proud of this performance, since it is mentioned in both prefaces to his book of 1671. I reason (conjecture again!) that guitar instructions from Corbetta to the King would have been earlier rather than later. Jourdan was succeeded by his son, Louis Anne, in 1695. So, why was it de Visee, not Jourdan, who was specifically called on to play the guitar to Louis while the latter was recovering from his almost-fatal illness of 1686? The guitar-loving king must have admired his playing. (Incidentally, it was while performing the Te Deum written to celebrate Louis' recovery from this illness that Lully suffered the wound that caused his death.) Peter On Mar 2, 2014, at 1:22 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Many many thanks for all this fascinating information. Jourdan must have been quite an important person in Louis' household. I have only one comment - Corbetta died in 1681 so he can't have succeeded Jourdon in 1695 and in any case he spent most of his last 20 years in England although he visited France again on a number of occasions. Perhaps he gave Louis a few master classes when he was in Paris. Best Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
On 02/03/14 7:56 PM, Peter Danner wrote: Incidentally, it was while performing the Te Deum written to celebrate Louis' recovery from this illness that Lully suffered the wound that caused his death. Oh no...I fear we're next going to learn that the tale of Lully's death from gangrene brought about by an accident with his conducting staff is a fable also! It must be true: Wikipedia says so. Not to mention the liner notes on every record of Lully's music. Incidentally, I learned from Wikipedia that the guitar was Lully's first instrument. Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Satoh is a veteran performer. He has made many contributions to our field both as a player and a scholar who has published in professional journals. As such, he speaks with some authority and many will assume that even his conjectures have a basis in fact. I understand the temptation as an artist to slip into poetic fantasy, but Satoh should certainly also realize that we in early music walk in both the aesthetic and scholarly paths of music. Those who only have an ancillary relationship with musicological concerns could be confused by his notes. I could easily imagine (and this is just my imagination!) a non-musician historian writing an offhand aside like The Sun King's retinue of entertainers included an assortment of notable individuals culled from all over the world, such as the Italian Lully and the Portuguese de Visee. Even worse, this is exactly the sort of thing that is very likely to slip through into a classical guitar dissertation someday, because the musicology faculty will not being willing to admit that they have no interest or knowledge in guitar history and the guitar faculty could care less about the history of their own instrument. That student's dissertation then ends up being referenced and repeated by others so that before you know it, it's a known fact that de Visee was from Portugual. Chris[1] Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Subject: [LUTE] De Visee Sent: Sat, Mar 1, 2014 11:39:05 AM Thank you very much for that Martyn. I don't know how many people have actually read these liner notes. Three whole pages are taken up with this biography - it is not until you turn to p.4 that you discover - Oh by the way - none of this is true. Some of the information is factually accurate. Some of it is not - which I think is inexcusable - Satoh is apparently unaware that Louis XIV died in 1715 and that when De Visee was appointed guitar teacher to the King it was to the 9 year old Louis XV. Some of it is obviously bollocks. When I first read these I queried on this list whether there was any evidence that De Visee was born in Portugal - not after all impossible - but did not get a satisfactory answer. I did my best to trace the source of this information - which had found its way into Wikipedia - perhaps that is where Satoh got the idea from. It seems that somebody some time ago suggested that De Visee's name implied that his family (rather than he himself) was Portuguese in origin. And so it goes. Endless pointless speculation masquerading as musicology, I can understand why David and and others who know Satoh personally and admire his playing might want to try and defend him. But I think that it needs to be said that people in his position - after all he taught at one of the most prestigious music colleges in the world until recently - shouldn't indulge in idle fantasy which may mislead the unwary. At the end of the day he has said nothing about the music or the manuscript from which it is taken which would have been much more interesting. As ever Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute Dmth [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 8:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Perhaps you missed what Monica Hall wrote after quoting Satoh: This is all my imagination and conjecture? She added Satoh's more misleading comment based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life In short, Satoh misleads by suggesting that his spurious conjectures, especially on birth place, are somehow based on historical sources. MH From: howard posner [4]howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lutelist [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 28 February 2014, 23:32 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Feb 28, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: I think you are being disingenious. What Satoh actually says is This is all my imagination and conjecture, based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life. How is the reader supposed to know what is based on these few documents and what is idle fantasy? I think This is all my imagination and conjecture pretty much gives it away. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS 2. javascript:return
[LUTE] Re: De Visee tab emergency
Hi, In the Sazenay, the A-minor prelude is written in page 256 and the courante in page 254. There is a slight different version of both pieces (and some others in the same key) in the manuscript of the Bibliotheque nationale, in Paris with the reference F Pn Res.1106. I have recorded for Brillaint Classics the prelude (Paris ms) and a theorbo piece by Bartolotti. You can listen to the first section of the prelude in this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLCVtjtLdZA The complete cd, devoted to Marin Marais can be bought in Amazon, Cduniverse and others: http://www.amazon.com/Marais-La-Voix-De-Viole/dp/B001SNXTRY best regards, Rafael Munoz www.labellemont.com __ De: be...@interlog.com be...@interlog.com Para: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Enviado: Domingo 16 de diciembre de 2012 1:45 Asunto: [LUTE] De Visee tab emergency Hi, folks! Hope all is well. I'm sending out a request for a couple of De Visee tabs that I can't seem to locate. In the A minor Suite d'Amila, there's a prelude and a courante. In the (awesome) Richard Civiol tabs that are available [1]http://luthlibrairie.free.fr, I can't seem to find those two pieces - are they in the collection, and I'm just too dense to locate them? If anyone has a line on those two tabs, I'd be really grateful - please get in touch. Happy various holidays - Ben S - [2]http://benjaminstein.ca/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://luthlibrairie.free.fr/ 2. http://benjaminstein.ca/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee tab emergency
Hi Benjamin, I am not aware of a courante and prelude in a minor by deVisee. All De Visee's lute pieces come from the Vaudry de Saizenay MS, and the Prelude and Courante pieces are not included. (Arto kindly sent a link to the MS). There is, however, and excellent CD by Eduardo Eguez, containing a prelude and courante in a minor; I think that he (Eduardo) may have composed the a minor Prelude and Courante, as those 2 pieces are not included in the Saizenay collection. Another possibility is that he may have adapted them from theorbo or guitar pieces. Are those 2 pieces the ones in which you are referring? The best, ed At 06:45 PM 12/15/2012, be...@interlog.com wrote: Hi, folks! Hope all is well. I'm sending out a request for a couple of De Visee tabs that I can't seem to locate. In the A minor Suite d'Amila, there's a prelude and a courante. In the (awesome) Richard Civiol tabs that are available http://luthlibrairie.free.fr, I can't seem to find those two pieces - are they in the collection, and I'm just too dense to locate them? If anyone has a line on those two tabs, I'd be really grateful - please get in touch. Happy various holidays - Ben S - http://benjaminstein.ca/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: De Visee tab emergency
Am 16.12.2012 15:55, schrieb Edward Martin: Hi Benjamin, I am not aware of a courante and prelude in a minor by deVisee. All De Visee's lute pieces come from the Vaudry de Saizenay MS, and the Prelude and Courante pieces are not included. (Arto kindly sent a link to the MS). I never had a closer look, but what about those: [1]http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?langTHuid=2type=mssst=0title=ke y=amsnam=comp=Vis As far as Senor Eguez is concerned, the e-mail address of this fabulous musician is [2]edua...@la-chimera.net Have a nice 3rd advent! BH -- References 1. http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?lang%C3%9Euid=2type=mssst=0title=key=amsnam=comp=Vis 2. mailto:edua...@la-chimera.net To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee tab emergency
According to Gerard Rebours thematic catalogue of De Visee's work there is a Prelude in A minor in the printed collection Pieces de theorbe et luth which is an arrangement of the prelude in B minor from the 1686 guitar book. This source also includes a courante in A minor. which is not in the guitar books. I don't know whether these are the pieces which you want. Regards Monica - Original Message - From: be...@interlog.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 12:45 AM Subject: [LUTE] De Visee tab emergency Hi, folks! Hope all is well. I'm sending out a request for a couple of De Visee tabs that I can't seem to locate. In the A minor Suite d'Amila, there's a prelude and a courante. In the (awesome) Richard Civiol tabs that are available http://luthlibrairie.free.fr, I can't seem to find those two pieces - are they in the collection, and I'm just too dense to locate them? If anyone has a line on those two tabs, I'd be really grateful - please get in touch. Happy various holidays - Ben S - http://benjaminstein.ca/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee tab emergency
The two Saizenay facsimiles are public. And in very beautiful way, see http://culture.besancon.fr/ark:/48565/a011284026247S0XA9H/1/1 Arto On 16/12/12 02:45, be...@interlog.com wrote: Hi, folks! Hope all is well. I'm sending out a request for a couple of De Visee tabs that I can't seem to locate. In the A minor Suite d'Amila, there's a prelude and a courante. In the (awesome) Richard Civiol tabs that are available http://luthlibrairie.free.fr, I can't seem to find those two pieces - are they in the collection, and I'm just too dense to locate them? If anyone has a line on those two tabs, I'd be really grateful - please get in touch. Happy various holidays - Ben S - http://benjaminstein.ca/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de Visee theorbo duets
Brad, Can you send the link to the duet on you tube? At 11:09 AM 10/9/2011, gtung.wal...@utoronto.ca wrote: Hello lute folks, There is a chaconne in g-major from the Saizenay ms and often attributed to de Visee (and sometimes to le Moyne). There is a duet version of this chaconne on Youtube. Does anyone know whether the duet version of this chaconne has been published and how one might obtain a copy of it? Thanks, Brad. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: de Visee Noels
They're identified by Bryan Prud'homme as being Une jeune pucelle [aka Une jeune fillette, La Monica] Je me suis leve par un matinet A la venue de noel P On 10/03/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all, Does anyone out there know where I might be able to find out the titles of the the three Noels in A minor for theorbo found in Saizenay? Thanks! Chris Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.silvius.co.uk http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ www.myspace.com/sambuca999 www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty --
[LUTE] Re: de Visee Noels
Peter, Thanks a lot! Are those the titles of the pieces as they appear in the manuscript, top to bottom? They're all just labeled Noel. Chris --- Peter Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They're identified by Bryan Prud'homme as being Une jeune pucelle [aka Une jeune fillette, La Monica] Je me suis leve par un matinet A la venue de noel P On 10/03/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all, Does anyone out there know where I might be able to find out the titles of the the three Noels in A minor for theorbo found in Saizenay? Thanks! Chris Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.silvius.co.uk http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ www.myspace.com/sambuca999 www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty -- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
[LUTE] Re: de Visee Noels
Yes, those are the three pieces in order of appearance. My information came from Bryan Prud'homme's 1992 University of Colorado PhD dissertation on the theorbo works of Robert de Visee, of which I bought a copy a few years ago in a fit of enthusiasm for RdV. He's picked up two of the titles from concordances. I don't know where the third one (Or dites Marie) came from. Anyone know if Bryan is still active in the lute world? P On 11/03/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, Thanks a lot! Are those the titles of the pieces as they appear in the manuscript, top to bottom? They're all just labeled Noel. Chris --- Peter Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They're identified by Bryan Prud'homme as being Une jeune pucelle [aka Une jeune fillette, La Monica] Je me suis leve par un matinet A la venue de noel P On 10/03/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all, Does anyone out there know where I might be able to find out the titles of the the three Noels in A minor for theorbo found in Saizenay? Thanks! Chris Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.silvius.co.uk http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ www.myspace.com/sambuca999 www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty -- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.silvius.co.uk http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ www.myspace.com/sambuca999 www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty --
[LUTE] Re: de Visee Noels
BTW that information has been provided in the table of contents to the 1980 Minkoff edition of the Saizenay ms. (1979 by Claude Chauvel). Mathias Peter Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Yes, those are the three pieces in order of appearance. My information came from Bryan Prud'homme's 1992 University of Colorado PhD dissertation on the theorbo works of Robert de Visee, of which I bought a copy a few years ago in a fit of enthusiasm for RdV. He's picked up two of the titles from concordances. I don't know where the third one (Or dites Marie) came from. Anyone know if Bryan is still active in the lute world? P On 11/03/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, Thanks a lot! Are those the titles of the pieces as they appear in the manuscript, top to bottom? They're all just labeled Noel. Chris --- Peter Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They're identified by Bryan Prud'homme as being Une jeune pucelle [aka Une jeune fillette, La Monica] Je me suis leve par un matinet A la venue de noel P On 10/03/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all, Does anyone out there know where I might be able to find out the titles of the the three Noels in A minor for theorbo found in Saizenay? Thanks! Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties
On Sunday 25 November 2007 21:58, Mathias Rösel rattled on the keyboard: Dear Collected Wisdom, on their CD with duets by de Visee and Corbetta (Naxos), Eric Bellocq and Massimo Moscardo have recorded two suites by de Visee, totalling 12 movements. Only three of those twelve contreparties can be found in the Saizenay ms. Does someone know whence the others were taken? I presume they are from the two other paris manuscripts with Visee theorbo music. I don't like the recording at all and the CD is on a 'to be sold' pile. taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties
Taco Walstra [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: On Sunday 25 November 2007 21:58, Mathias Rösel rattled on the keyboard: Dear Collected Wisdom, on their CD with duets by de Visee and Corbetta (Naxos), Eric Bellocq and Massimo Moscardo have recorded two suites by de Visee, totalling 12 movements. Only three of those twelve contreparties can be found in the Saizenay ms. Does someone know whence the others were taken? I presume they are from the two other paris manuscripts with Visee theorbo music. taco The other two Paris mss. probably are Paris BN Vm7 1106 and 6265? Pohlmann lists them as in the LSA microfilm archive. Would someone please have a look if the contreparties are contained in those two mss.? Daniel? Nancy? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties
Dear Mathias, the liner notes say: Einige der hier eingespielten contreparties sind Manuskripten entnommen _die sich in Privatbesitz befinden._! B.R. G. - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 12:35 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties Taco Walstra [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: On Sunday 25 November 2007 21:58, Mathias Rösel rattled on the keyboard: Dear Collected Wisdom, on their CD with duets by de Visee and Corbetta (Naxos), Eric Bellocq and Massimo Moscardo have recorded two suites by de Visee, totalling 12 movements. Only three of those twelve contreparties can be found in the Saizenay ms. Does someone know whence the others were taken? I presume they are from the two other paris manuscripts with Visee theorbo music. taco The other two Paris mss. probably are Paris BN Vm7 1106 and 6265? Pohlmann lists them as in the LSA microfilm archive. Would someone please have a look if the contreparties are contained in those two mss.? Daniel? Nancy? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties
Only two Visee contreparties are in Paris sources. There is the wonderful finding tool that Christian Meyer and his associates are making for our use. It is a life-time';s work, and far from complete. But for what it inventories so far (manuscript lute music in France, Switzerland, Germany, the former East Bloc countries) it is very throuough. The indexes (by composer and by title) are available on line. The lists of contents of the individual manuscripts are available in printed volumes. The printed lists also refer one to significant literature and modern editions of the music. See here: http://www.bnu.fr/smt/smt.htm Apparently the pieces you seek have not turned up in the sources so far indexed. ==AJN Boston, Mass. This week's free download from Classical Music Library: Mahler: Symphony No. 5 Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 6:35 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties Taco Walstra [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: On Sunday 25 November 2007 21:58, Mathias Rösel rattled on the keyboard: Dear Collected Wisdom, on their CD with duets by de Visee and Corbetta (Naxos), Eric Bellocq and Massimo Moscardo have recorded two suites by de Visee, totalling 12 movements. Only three of those twelve contreparties can be found in the Saizenay ms. Does someone know whence the others were taken? I presume they are from the two other paris manuscripts with Visee theorbo music. taco The other two Paris mss. probably are Paris BN Vm7 1106 and 6265? Pohlmann lists them as in the LSA microfilm archive. Would someone please have a look if the contreparties are contained in those two mss.? Daniel? Nancy? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties
From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties Only two Visee contreparties are in Paris sources. There is the wonderful finding tool that Christian Meyer and his associates are making for our use. It is a life-time';s work, and far from complete. But for what it inventories so far (manuscript lute music in France, Switzerland, Germany, the former East Bloc countries) it is very throuough. The indexes (by composer and by title) are available on line. The lists of contents of the individual manuscripts are available in printed volumes. The printed lists also refer one to significant literature and modern editions of the music. See here: http://www.bnu.fr/smt/smt.htm Apparently the pieces you seek have not turned up in the sources so far indexed. ==AJN Boston, Mass. This week's free download from Classical Music Library: Mahler: Symphony No. 5 Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 6:35 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties Taco Walstra [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: On Sunday 25 November 2007 21:58, Mathias Rösel rattled on the keyboard: Dear Collected Wisdom, on their CD with duets by de Visee and Corbetta (Naxos), Eric Bellocq and Massimo Moscardo have recorded two suites by de Visee, totalling 12 movements. Only three of those twelve contreparties can be found in the Saizenay ms. Does someone know whence the others were taken? I presume they are from the two other paris manuscripts with Visee theorbo music. taco The other two Paris mss. probably are Paris BN Vm7 1106 and 6265? Pohlmann lists them as in the LSA microfilm archive. Would someone please have a look if the contreparties are contained in those two mss.? Daniel? Nancy? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties
May be the other contrepartie has been ''(re)constructed'' ;-)) ? Jurek On 2007-11-26, at 18:08, Arthur Ness wrote: Only two Visee contreparties are in Paris sources. There is the wonderful finding tool that Christian Meyer and his associates are making for our use. It is a life-time';s work, and far from complete. But for what it inventories so far (manuscript lute music in France, Switzerland, Germany, the former East Bloc countries) it is very throuough. The indexes (by composer and by title) are available on line. The lists of contents of the individual manuscripts are available in printed volumes. The printed lists also refer one to significant literature and modern editions of the music. See here: http://www.bnu.fr/smt/smt.htm Apparently the pieces you seek have not turned up in the sources so far indexed. ==AJN Boston, Mass. This week's free download from Classical Music Library: Mahler: Symphony No. 5 Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 6:35 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties Taco Walstra [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: On Sunday 25 November 2007 21:58, Mathias Rösel rattled on the keyboard: Dear Collected Wisdom, on their CD with duets by de Visee and Corbetta (Naxos), Eric Bellocq and Massimo Moscardo have recorded two suites by de Visee, totalling 12 movements. Only three of those twelve contreparties can be found in the Saizenay ms. Does someone know whence the others were taken? I presume they are from the two other paris manuscripts with Visee theorbo music. taco The other two Paris mss. probably are Paris BN Vm7 1106 and 6265? Pohlmann lists them as in the LSA microfilm archive. Would someone please have a look if the contreparties are contained in those two mss.? Daniel? Nancy? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de visee kellner
Apart from the musical differences Bonavita's playing position certainly looks healthier. Nomen est omen :-) Regards, Stephan Am 21 Apr 2007 um 15:37 hat Mathias Rösel geschrieben: [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I thought both Lislevand's and Bonavitas' performances were nice. Notwithstanding everybody's personal preferences, I especially disliked Lislevand's stopping of basses so as to stress the notes. Anyway, his playing is at times very guitaristic, in this video (okay, one might want to discuss Bonavita's strumming, also). What I enjoyed in Bonavita's interpretation were the notes inegales, his tastefully ornamenting almost every note and his raising of passion in the last sections. Had he chosen gut bass strings and additionally put his right hand closer to the bridge, I wouldn't hesitate to declare him the winner :) -- Mathias --- Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davide Bioccoli [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hi to all... Here's a nice (but short) link to Lislevand playing De Visée: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhKuL75sLfQ If Rafael Bonavita http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6UKk5shfIAmode=relatedsearch= had used Lislevand's stringing instead of those awefully roaring wound bass strings, not only his interpretation but also his performance would have been superior, IMO. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de visee kellner
Davide Bioccoli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi to all... Here's a nice (but short) link to Lislevand playing De Visée: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhKuL75sLfQ Thank you for this. Leslevand is a truly remarkable player. It's always great to hear somebody who's got enough technical skills to play such music and ... be in full control of it (rather than the other way round as is often the case). His 2003 'la belle homicide' CD on 11-course lute is equally impressive. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de visee kellner
Mathias, I thought both Lislevand's and Bonavitas' performances were nice. Chris --- Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davide Bioccoli [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hi to all... Here's a nice (but short) link to Lislevand playing De Visée: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhKuL75sLfQ If Rafael Bonavita http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6UKk5shfIAmode=relatedsearch= had used Lislevand's stringing instead of those awefully roaring wound bass strings, not only his interpretation but also his performance would have been superior, IMO. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[LUTE] Re: de visee kellner
[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I thought both Lislevand's and Bonavitas' performances were nice. Notwithstanding everybody's personal preferences, I especially disliked Lislevand's stopping of basses so as to stress the notes. Anyway, his playing is at times very guitaristic, in this video (okay, one might want to discuss Bonavita's strumming, also). What I enjoyed in Bonavita's interpretation were the notes inegales, his tastefully ornamenting almost every note and his raising of passion in the last sections. Had he chosen gut bass strings and additionally put his right hand closer to the bridge, I wouldn't hesitate to declare him the winner :) -- Mathias --- Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davide Bioccoli [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hi to all... Here's a nice (but short) link to Lislevand playing De Visée: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhKuL75sLfQ If Rafael Bonavita http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6UKk5shfIAmode=relatedsearch= had used Lislevand's stringing instead of those awefully roaring wound bass strings, not only his interpretation but also his performance would have been superior, IMO. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de visee kellner
On Apr 21, 2007, at 11:37 AM, Mathias R=F6sel wrote: ...I especially disliked Lislevand's stopping of basses so as to stress the notes. Anyway, his playing is at times very guitaristic The stopping of the basses is something I tend to associate with pianists when they play Baroque music (whatever Baroque technique may be on a piano, I imagine the less said the better), but I found it startling on the theorbo because I didn't expect it. I didn't particularly think RL's playing was guitaristic, except perhaps in his interpretation. In fact, I was thinking his right-hand was almost thumb-under. David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de visee kellner
Mathias, Bonavita also stop the basses at the same place Lislevand does. They are both great... Notwithstanding everybody's personal preferences, I especially disliked Lislevand's stopping of basses so as to stress the notes. Anyway, his playing is at times very guitaristic, in this video (okay, one might want to discuss Bonavita's strumming, also). What I enjoyed in Bonavita's interpretation were the notes inegales, his tastefully ornamenting almost every note and his raising of passion in the last sections. Agree. Had he chosen gut bass strings and additionally put his right hand closer to the bridge, I wouldn't hesitate to declare him the winner :) This is not a competition I hope... -- Mathias --- Mathias R=F6sel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davide Bioccoli [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hi to all... Here's a nice (but short) link to Lislevand playing De Visee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhKuL75sLfQ If Rafael Bonavita http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6UKk5shfIAmode=relatedsearch had used Lislevand's stringing instead of those awefully roaring wound bass strings, not only his interpretation but also his performance would have been superior, IMO. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: de visee kellner
--- Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Notwithstanding everybody's personal preferences, I especially disliked Lislevand's stopping of basses so as to stress the notes. Not my preference, either. Hoppy Smith does this sort of thing all over his de Visee album and it seems like lots of folks really enjoy that recording. Sounds too disruptive to me, but I love the album anyway. Had he chosen gut bass strings and additionally put his right hand closer to the bridge, I don't agree about the gut strings, but I will agree with you on the right hand position. (I think most players could move toward the bridge.) This is hard to do on such a large instrument as he's using, however. Funny, though, far from finding the basses thundering as you described in a previous post, his sound was a bit too gentle for my taste. On the other hand, I don't think it would have sounded the same way to a listener in the room (as opposed to the mic being right in front of him). I wouldn't hesitate to declare him the winner :) Don't know - there were things I liked about both. Lislevand approached the piece as a straight-ahead dance while the other performance was more rhapsodic. Both are worthy, but I really like to hear it somewhere between the two. Fortunately, neither one was competing on Lute-God Idol. Chris Mathias --- Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davide Bioccoli [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hi to all... Here's a nice (but short) link to Lislevand playing De Visée: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhKuL75sLfQ If Rafael Bonavita http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6UKk5shfIAmode=relatedsearch= had used Lislevand's stringing instead of those awefully roaring wound bass strings, not only his interpretation but also his performance would have been superior, IMO. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
