[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
> On May 26, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Jacob Johnson wrote: > > it does seem a bit strange to say that Now O Now could not possibly > have been written prior to 1597. Has anyone said that? Dowland’s preface says that most of his songs should be “ripe enough by their age” to have achieved popularity, so it’s clear that he didn’t just crank them out that year. There’s a testimonial from Luca Marenzio on the same page dated 1595. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
Hi Jacob, Sorry if I sounded disingenuous - I was not trying to. There are so many gaps in my knowledge I try to use some raw logic to make sense of the material, and it is definitely not a full proof tool. It is not impossible that Dowland composed the tune ca. 1582 when he was about 18 years old. The lyrics in the First book of songs plead another story I think, in that they do not seem to refer to Francis at all. There seems to be a consensus that some of the poems were added to the existing, already popular dance tunes - including Lachrimae. Here is an extract from Peter Holman's excellent book on Lachrimae: See: [1]https://epdf.tips/dowland-lachrimae-1604.html "By contrast, the earliest source of the famous lute-song setting, âFlow my teares', seems to be The Second Booke of Songs or Ayres, published in 1600. The song is almost certainly an adaptation of the pavan rather than the other way round, for Dowland headed it âLacrime' as if it was a version of a well-known piece, and the poem has no metrical regularity: it shows signs of having been written to fit the tune. Dowland seems to have arranged a number of his songs from instrumental dances (see Chapter 5), and in general the type of lute song he popularised had its roots in the English broadside ballad, and had connections with the Italian villanella and the French voix de ville genres that involved adding words to existing popular tunes." On 5/26/19 11:18 AM, Jacob Johnson wrote: Thank you all for the information! It's a good point that attempts at courting Francis ended in 1585, and that the First Booke was not published for another 15 years. Still, the Frogg Galliard appears in Dd. 2.11, which was copied between 1588 and 1595. It would be disingenuous to suggest that the piece could not have been written before 1585 due to its appearance in The First Booke. Warmest Regards, Jacob Johnson Dd. 2.11, which was copied between 1588 and 1595. It would be disingenuous to suggest that the piece could not have been written before 1585 due to its appearance in The First Booke. On Sun, May 26, 2019, 7:59 AM Ron Andrico [2]<[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote: To answer questions that have to do with known sources of texts for English lute songs, check out the longstanding standard reference, Edward Doughtie's _Lyrics from English Airs, 1596-1622_. The late lamented Professor Doughtie used to lurk on this list, and we had the privilege of a dozen years' worth of deep discussions with his regarding texts and authors. We were very honored to have received a large amount of Ed's notes and annotated source material before he passed away. RA __ From: [[3]2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [4]<[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Alain Veylit [5]<[4]al...@musickshandmade.com> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2019 6:00 PM To: 'Lute List' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes What is the current consensus on the authorship of the verses in Dowland's 1st book of songes (1597)? Any attributions to some one other than Dowland himself? Also, I'll take any information about the actual printing job: is it the first example of the layout with lute + cantus on one page and the 3 other parts on the facing page in a clockwise arrangement so the parts could be read from three sides of a table? (I am personally much more impressed by the technological prowess of the printers than by the poetry of the lyrics, that I find overly whiny ... Dude, you lived in a completely patriarchal society and you still manage to blame her for torturing you! ) Thanks for your input! To get on or off this list see list information at [1][5][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [2][6]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. [7][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. [8][8]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link; utm_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 4. [9][9]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link; utm_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 5. [10]file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L11446-6934TMP.html#DAB4FAD8 -2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 -- References 1. [11]mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 2. [12]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [13]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. [14]mailto:al...@musick
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
You are right, in writing from memory I misquoted the year as '85 rather than '81. The fact remains that the Frogg Galliard appears in a manuscript that was copied between 1588 and 1595 (between 9 and 2 years earlier than the First Booke's publication) and in light of that fact it does seem a bit strange to say that Now O Now could not possibly have been written prior to 1597. Intabulating pre-existing vocal works was obviously common, but I would be very interested to hear of any examples which started as solos and were later turned into song. Warmest Regards, On Sun, May 26, 2019, 2:30 PM howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: > On May 26, 2019, at 11:18 AM, Jacob Johnson <[2]tmrguitar...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Thank you all for the information! It's a good point that attempts at >courting Francis ended in 1585, The man died in 1584. > and that the First Booke was not >published for another 15 years. Still, the Frogg Galliard appears in >Dd. 2.11, which was copied between 1588 and 1595. It would be >disingenuous to suggest that the piece could not have been written >before 1585 due to its appearance in The First Booke. I hope not: disingenuous[ dis-in-jen-yoo-uhâs ] adjective lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere: Her excuse was rather disingenuous. RELATED WORDS dishonest, unfair, deceitful, false, artful, crooked, cunning, designing, duplicitous, feigned, foxy, indirect, insidious, mendacious, oblique, shifty, sly, tricky, two-faced, underhanded To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:tmrguitar...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
> On May 26, 2019, at 11:18 AM, Jacob Johnson wrote: > > Thank you all for the information! It's a good point that attempts at > courting Francis ended in 1585, The man died in 1584. > and that the First Booke was not > published for another 15 years. Still, the Frogg Galliard appears in > Dd. 2.11, which was copied between 1588 and 1595. It would be > disingenuous to suggest that the piece could not have been written > before 1585 due to its appearance in The First Booke. I hope not: disingenuous[ dis-in-jen-yoo-uh s ] adjective lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere: Her excuse was rather disingenuous. RELATED WORDS dishonest, unfair, deceitful, false, artful, crooked, cunning, designing, duplicitous, feigned, foxy, indirect, insidious, mendacious, oblique, shifty, sly, tricky, two-faced, underhanded To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
I made a mistake in a recent post (yesterday, the poem I quoted from the Musical Banquet is not by Dowland, but by Henry Lee (or Lea)... The Goddess therefore seems to actually be Queen Liz (well deceased by the time the Musical banquet was published). Another poem by Lee is found in Dowland's Second book of songs, "Time's eldest son, the heir of ease". Farre from triumphing Court and wonted glory, He dwelt in shadie unfrequented places, Times prisoner now he made his pastime story, Gladly forgets Courts erst afforded graces,) That Goddesse whom hee servd to heav’n is gone, And he on earth, In darknesse left to moane. I guess this goes on to show that figuring out the authorship of the poems does matter... Apologies for this mishap. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
Thank you all for the information! It's a good point that attempts at
courting Francis ended in 1585, and that the First Booke was not
published for another 15 years. Still, the Frogg Galliard appears in
Dd. 2.11, which was copied between 1588 and 1595. It would be
disingenuous to suggest that the piece could not have been written
before 1585 due to its appearance in The First Booke.
Warmest Regards,
Jacob Johnson
On Sun, May 26, 2019, 7:59 AM Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
To answer questions that have to do with known sources of texts
for
English lute songs, check out the longstanding standard
reference,
Edward Doughtie's _Lyrics from English Airs, 1596-1622_. The
late
lamented Professor Doughtie used to lurk on this list, and we had
the
privilege of a dozen years' worth of deep discussions with his
regarding texts and authors. We were very honored to have
received a
large amount of Ed's notes and annotated source material before
he
passed away.
RA
__
From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
on behalf
of Alain Veylit <[4]al...@musickshandmade.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2019 6:00 PM
To: 'Lute List'
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
What is the current consensus on the authorship of the verses in
Dowland's 1st book of songes (1597)? Any attributions to some one
other
than Dowland himself?
Also, I'll take any information about the actual printing job: is
it
the
first example of the layout with lute + cantus on one page and
the 3
other parts on the facing page in a clockwise arrangement so the
parts
could be read from three sides of a table?
(I am personally much more impressed by the technological prowess
of
the
printers than by the poetry of the lyrics, that I find overly
whiny ...
Dude, you lived in a completely patriarchal society and you still
manage
to blame her for torturing you! )
Thanks for your input!
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Virus-free. [2][6]www.avast.com
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References
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[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
> On May 26, 2019, at 1:48 AM, Alain Veylit wrote: > > The negociations for Elizabeth to marry Francis finally failed in 1582, 15 > years before the First book of songes was published. There is no mention in > "Now o Now" of how ugly Francis was (dwarfish, with severe scars from the > small pox). I don't see how English poets of the time could have skipped over > the opportunity to revile a French suitor to their queen based on his > physical appearance. If the Frog galliard were entitled the Toad galliard, > your theory might hold some water... > > Jokes aside, 15 years is a long time in politics (even in those days), and > the complete absence of satirical content in the lyrics of the song cast a > doubt on that theory in my opinion. > > At the time Dowland published the First book of songs, Queen Elizabeth would > have been 64, a ripe old age beyond any sort of romantic inclination and > possibly touchy if anyone dared harp on it … Anyone who considered the Queen and her suitor a subject of satire--or indeed much of anything else—would be taking a grave risk. We’re not talking about Stephen Colbert and Donald Trump here. In 1579 a Puritan named John Stubbs wrote "The Discovery of a Gaping Gulf whereunto England is like to be swallowed by another French Marriage, if the Lord forbid not the banns, by letting her Majesty see the sin and punishment thereof,” a pamphlet arguing against the marriage of Elizabeth and Anjou because the 46-year-old queen, too old to bear children, had no need to marry, and the marriage could lead to restoration of Catholicism, which would destroy English liberty, including freedom of speech. He wrote that the marriage would be "an immoral union, an uneven yoking of the clean ox to the unclean ass, a thing forbidden in the law” [i.e., Deuteronomy 22:10] and a "more foul and more gross" union that would incur God’s anger, leaving the English "pressed down with the heavy loins of a worse people and beaten as with scorpions by a more vile nation." Stubbs and the publisher, William Page, were found guilty of "seditious writing", and had their right hands cut off, somewhat undercutting the argument about protecting free speech. Just before the sentence was carried out, with a crowd of people watching, Stubbs said, "Pray for me now [that] my calamity is at hand,” securing for himself a place in the Smartass Hall of Fame. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
One excerpt (lutes and are mentioned !) : 1580 Feb 21 172. COBHAM to the SECRETARIES. On Saturday M. Gondi invited me in the Queen Mother's name to dine next day at her house ; meaning to make a private banquet to the king, not as King of France, but Henry her son and his wife. And that he might be the cheerfuller she desired me to be present, to accompany him as the servant of his good sister the Queen of England, and that I should have there no competitor for precedence, as other ambassadors would be likewise invited, whereby the king might show himself better contented finding himself in, such company. My answer was that I humbly thanked her Majesty as one willing to obey her, betaking myself into her hands to be employed at her pleasure, because the Queen's mind was that I should serve her as she should will during the time of this service. So next day, at the hour appointed, about 10 o'clock, I went to the hostel de la Reine mère, a house of her building ; being 'quadrante,' all of stone, of three stories, very 'proportially' framed, having in one of the corners at the upper end of the quadrant a pyramid 30 fathoms high as I guess, all of hard stone, with a pair of stairs within the hollowness conveyed up to the top, from whence most part of the city may be seen. At the entry of the gate M. Gondi received me, and in the court I was met by M. la Mothe Fènelon, M. Beauvois, a captain of the guard, and Colonel Chomberg, who conducted me into a place appointed for the ambassadors, where I dined in the company of the ambassadors of Portugal and Venice. After the king had dined, the same gentlemen accompanied us to the place where the dancing was to be ; and as we were mounting the stairs the king came thither likewise, with the Queen, where, upon the occasion of some disorder through the press, the king staying plucked me to him, speaking to me of the disorder, and enquiring of me if the Queen were in like sort troubled upon such occasions. I 'showed' him that the smallness of the Queen's estate could not bring forth such multitudes of nobility and gentlemen as the realm of France plentifully yielded ; but at such times she had the captains of her guard and chief officers of her chamber, who 'gave order,' though with some difficulty, for subjects are desirous to draw near to the person of their kings, as gods on this earth. With this I offered to put myself into the rank of the rest of the Ambassadors, but his Majesty took me by the cloak and kept me still while he was on the stairs, ever passing some pleasant speeches ; among other he wished that he might see some cheerful day between his brother and the Queen of England. I said that the Queen might think herself beholden to him for his earnest desire that way, assuring him that I have heard her Highness wish as earnestly that he were blest with children, as also good servants to both of them wished and prayed that this might be a year of good harvest wherein France and England might reap the blessed fruits of their princes' children. With this and suchlike speeches he passed the time till we were come to the upper 'hende' of the chamber, where he and his Queen being placed in their chairs, he commanded me to sit on the righthand side, beside his person. The Pope's ambassador, and the ambassadors of Savoy and Ferrara, who had dined among certain ladies, were placed round about behind him, accompanied by the Cardinal of Guise. The Portugal ambassador was beside the Queen and the ambassador of Venice beside me. After some pause the King rose from his chair, saying to me : 'Yonder is a gentlewoman that was one of my mother's maids, married to an Italian called Camillo Fera Mantovano, a servitor of ours ; I will do her the honour to dance with her' ; asking me if my mistress did not use the like in England. I said she showed these favours after the manner of princes to their servants. With that he took the gentlewoman, dancing the Spanish pavane singularly well : which being done he returned and took his Queen, pacing the measures with her, followed by the Prince Dauphin, the Dukes of 'Mercury' and and Guise, and 'Charles Monsieur' [? Charles de Valois] with some of the 'ladies of estate.' This dance being done, the king and queen after their measures returned to their places. After this the king took Mme d'Autrey [d'Atri] lately married to Count Châteauvilain and danced with her the 'currants,' followed by some other young gentlemen, entertaining the time until there entered a masque ; the order of which was : First six musician maskers, playing on their lutes ; then two young boys in apparel representing Cupids, having small bows and quivers full of shafts, with certain garlands on their arms and their eyes bound with thin veils. Then
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
Ambassador Cobham was charged with trying to arrange the marriage between Elizabeth and the Duke of Anjou, and he reported regularly in writing to Walsingham. His reports to Walsingham about this matter (and many other things too of course) can be found in the Calendat of State Papers, Foreign at [1]https://www.british-history.ac.uk/search/series/cal-state-papers--fo reign?page=1 Op zo 26 mei 2019 om 11:49 schreef Alain Veylit <[2]al...@musickshandmade.com>: The negociations for Elizabeth to marry Francis finally failed in 1582, 15 years before the First book of songes was published. There is no mention in "Now o Now" of how ugly Francis was (dwarfish, with severe scars from the small pox). I don't see how English poets of the time could have skipped over the opportunity to revile a French suitor to their queen based on his physical appearance. If the Frog galliard were entitled the Toad galliard, your theory might hold some water... Jokes aside, 15 years is a long time in politics (even in those days), and the complete absence of satirical content in the lyrics of the song cast a doubt on that theory in my opinion. At the time Dowland published the First book of songs, Queen Elizabeth would have been 64, a ripe old age beyond any sort of romantic inclination and possibly touchy if anyone dared harp on it ... Having said that, English people still refer to French people as frogs - even if we find no evidence of that in the Beatles song catalog... Dowland spent time in France, where he is supposed to have converted to Catholicism, and he had some very good reasons to stay well away from hot political matters at the English court. There is an interesting Dowland song in the Musical banquet that seems to contradict my assumption that Dowland cared little for the court - though note necessarily the court of England. I think the Goddess he refers to is more likely Fame than Queen Elizabeth. That poem seems to refer to several of Dowland's own songs, in a very post-modern sort of way, while having the same clarity as a quatrain by Nostradamus : Farre from triumphing Court and wonted glory, He dwelt in shadie unfrequented places, Times prisoner now he made his pastime story, Gladly forgets Courts erst afforded graces, That Goddesse whom hee servde to heav'n is gone, And hee one earth, In darknesse left to moane. But loe a glorious light from his darke rest Shone from the place where erst this Goddesse dwelt A light whose beames the world with fruit hath blest Blest was the Knight while hee that light beheld: Since then a starre fixed on his head hath shinde, And a Saints Image in his hart is shrinde. Ravisht with joy so grac't by such a Saint, He quite forgat his Cell and selfe denaid, He thought it shame in thankfulnesse to faint, Debts due to Princes must be duely paid: Nothing so hatefull to a noble minde, As finding kindnesse for to prove unkinde. But ah poore Knight though thus in dreame he ranged, Hoping to serve this Saint in sort most meete, Tyme with his golden locks to silver changed Hath with age-fetters bound him hands and feete, Aye mee, hee cryes, Goddesse my limbs grow faint, Though I times prisoner be, be you my Saint. On 5/25/19 11:56 PM, Jacob Johnson wrote: > Has anyone suggested that "Now O Now" and the Frogg Galliard might be > in reference to Elizabeth's "on again, off again" courtship with > Francis, Duke of Anjou? After all, she called him her "frog". > Warmest Regards, > Jacob Johnson > > On Sun, May 26, 2019, 1:38 AM howard posner <[1][3]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> > wrote: > >> On May 25, 2019, at 12:39 PM, guy_and_liz Smith ><[2][4]guy_and_...@msn.com> wrote: >> >> At a seminar I attended some years ago, Pat O'Brien made a >plausible case that Can She Excuse (which is based on the Earl of >Essex galliard) is a veiled reference to the relationship between >Elizabeth and Robert, Earl of Essex. >The idea that Essex wrote the words (and those Bacheler's To Plead >My Faith) has been discussed for decades.Poulton goes through the >subject on pages 225-330 of the 1982 edition of John Dowland (I >imagine it was in the 1972 edition as well, but don't have it). >> They were widely believed to be lovers early on, but it didn't >last and there's apparently a letter from him to Elizabeth sent >during his tenure as Lord Lieutenant of Ireland
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
The negociations for Elizabeth to marry Francis finally failed in 1582, 15 years before the First book of songes was published. There is no mention in "Now o Now" of how ugly Francis was (dwarfish, with severe scars from the small pox). I don't see how English poets of the time could have skipped over the opportunity to revile a French suitor to their queen based on his physical appearance. If the Frog galliard were entitled the Toad galliard, your theory might hold some water... Jokes aside, 15 years is a long time in politics (even in those days), and the complete absence of satirical content in the lyrics of the song cast a doubt on that theory in my opinion. At the time Dowland published the First book of songs, Queen Elizabeth would have been 64, a ripe old age beyond any sort of romantic inclination and possibly touchy if anyone dared harp on it ... Having said that, English people still refer to French people as frogs - even if we find no evidence of that in the Beatles song catalog... Dowland spent time in France, where he is supposed to have converted to Catholicism, and he had some very good reasons to stay well away from hot political matters at the English court. There is an interesting Dowland song in the Musical banquet that seems to contradict my assumption that Dowland cared little for the court - though note necessarily the court of England. I think the Goddess he refers to is more likely Fame than Queen Elizabeth. That poem seems to refer to several of Dowland's own songs, in a very post-modern sort of way, while having the same clarity as a quatrain by Nostradamus : Farre from triumphing Court and wonted glory, He dwelt in shadie unfrequented places, Times prisoner now he made his pastime story, Gladly forgets Courts erst afforded graces, That Goddesse whom hee servde to heav’n is gone, And hee one earth, In darknesse left to moane. But loe a glorious light from his darke rest Shone from the place where erst this Goddesse dwelt A light whose beames the world with fruit hath blest Blest was the Knight while hee that light beheld: Since then a starre fixed on his head hath shinde, And a Saints Image in his hart is shrinde. Ravisht with joy so grac’t by such a Saint, He quite forgat his Cell and selfe denaid, He thought it shame in thankfulnesse to faint, Debts due to Princes must be duely paid: Nothing so hatefull to a noble minde, As finding kindnesse for to prove unkinde. But ah poore Knight though thus in dreame he ranged, Hoping to serve this Saint in sort most meete, Tyme with his golden locks to silver changed Hath with age-fetters bound him hands and feete, Aye mee, hee cryes, Goddesse my limbs grow faint, Though I times prisoner be, be you my Saint. On 5/25/19 11:56 PM, Jacob Johnson wrote: Has anyone suggested that "Now O Now" and the Frogg Galliard might be in reference to Elizabeth's "on again, off again" courtship with Francis, Duke of Anjou? After all, she called him her "frog". Warmest Regards, Jacob Johnson On Sun, May 26, 2019, 1:38 AM howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: > On May 25, 2019, at 12:39 PM, guy_and_liz Smith <[2]guy_and_...@msn.com> wrote: > > At a seminar I attended some years ago, Pat O'Brien made a plausible case that Can She Excuse (which is based on the Earl of Essex galliard) is a veiled reference to the relationship between Elizabeth and Robert, Earl of Essex. The idea that Essex wrote the words (and those Bacheler's To Plead My Faith) has been discussed for decades. Poulton goes through the subject on pages 225-330 of the 1982 edition of John Dowland (I imagine it was in the 1972 edition as well, but don't have it). > They were widely believed to be lovers early on, but it didn't last and there's apparently a letter from him to Elizabeth sent during his tenure as Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (which was less than successful), complaining of ill treatment by her. Robert ultimately was accused of treason It probably had something to do with the rebellion he led in London in February 1601. For some reason, this was considered a sign of disloyalty. > and executed. Well, his head was cut off. To be fair, Essex behaved so brainlessly sometimes that Elizabeth may have just been trying to find out if he could do without it. Poulton points out that Dowland did not use the title "Earl of Essex Galliard" until 1604 (in Lachrimae or Seven Teares), when Elizabeth and Essex had been dead for one and three years, respectively. To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:guy_and_...@msn.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
> On May 25, 2019, at 11:56 PM, Jacob Johnson wrote: > > Has anyone suggested that "Now O Now" and the Frogg Galliard might be > in reference to Elizabeth's "on again, off again" courtship with > Francis, Duke of Anjou? Yes, anyone has suggested this. It comes up on this list from time to time, and you can find discussion in its archives if you do a better job of searching than I just did at 40 minutes past midnight local time. The connection is tenuous, inasmuch as the prospect of Elizabeth marrying the Duke Anjou were dead by 1581, when Dowland was 17 or 18, and the Duke himself died of malaria three years later. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
Has anyone suggested that "Now O Now" and the Frogg Galliard might be in reference to Elizabeth's "on again, off again" courtship with Francis, Duke of Anjou? After all, she called him her "frog". Warmest Regards, Jacob Johnson On Sun, May 26, 2019, 1:38 AM howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: > On May 25, 2019, at 12:39 PM, guy_and_liz Smith <[2]guy_and_...@msn.com> wrote: > > At a seminar I attended some years ago, Pat O'Brien made a plausible case that Can She Excuse (which is based on the Earl of Essex galliard) is a veiled reference to the relationship between Elizabeth and Robert, Earl of Essex. The idea that Essex wrote the words (and those Bacheler's To Plead My Faith) has been discussed for decades. Poulton goes through the subject on pages 225-330 of the 1982 edition of John Dowland (I imagine it was in the 1972 edition as well, but don't have it). > They were widely believed to be lovers early on, but it didn't last and there's apparently a letter from him to Elizabeth sent during his tenure as Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (which was less than successful), complaining of ill treatment by her. Robert ultimately was accused of treason It probably had something to do with the rebellion he led in London in February 1601. For some reason, this was considered a sign of disloyalty. > and executed. Well, his head was cut off. To be fair, Essex behaved so brainlessly sometimes that Elizabeth may have just been trying to find out if he could do without it. Poulton points out that Dowland did not use the title "Earl of Essex Galliard" until 1604 (in Lachrimae or Seven Teares), when Elizabeth and Essex had been dead for one and three years, respectively. To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:guy_and_...@msn.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
On 26.05.2019 06:37, Alain Veylit wrote: .. At a seminar I attended some years ago, Pat O'Brien made a plausible case that C an She Excuse (which is based on the Earl of Essex galliard) is a veiled referen ce to the relationship between Elizabeth and Robert, Earl of Essex. They were wi dely believed to be lovers early on, certainly - she was only 32 (thirty-two) years older than Devereux. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
> On May 25, 2019, at 12:39 PM, guy_and_liz Smith wrote: > > At a seminar I attended some years ago, Pat O'Brien made a plausible case > that Can She Excuse (which is based on the Earl of Essex galliard) is a > veiled reference to the relationship between Elizabeth and Robert, Earl of > Essex. The idea that Essex wrote the words (and those Bacheler’s To Plead My Faith) has been discussed for decades. Poulton goes through the subject on pages 225-330 of the 1982 edition of John Dowland (I imagine it was in the 1972 edition as well, but don’t have it). > They were widely believed to be lovers early on, but it didn't last and > there's apparently a letter from him to Elizabeth sent during his tenure as > Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (which was less than successful), complaining of > ill treatment by her. Robert ultimately was accused of treason It probably had something to do with the rebellion he led in London in February 1601. For some reason, this was considered a sign of disloyalty. > and executed. Well, his head was cut off. To be fair, Essex behaved so brainlessly sometimes that Elizabeth may have just been trying to find out if he could do without it. Poulton points out that Dowland did not use the title “Earl of Essex Galliard” until 1604 (in Lachrimae or Seven Teares), when Elizabeth and Essex had been dead for one and three years, respectively. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
The text of Can she excuse is "probably" by the Earl of Essex himself according to some scholars. See: [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can_She_Excuse_My_Wrongs - but there is no conclusive evidence other than the dedication of the Galliard to Essex over 10 years after the First book, and after the Queen's death. There is an interesting typo in the altus part. Instead of : No, no; where shadows do for bodies stand, Thou may'st be abus'd if thy sight be dim The altus part says: ... if thy light be dim. (which seems more poetic to me ...) If directed at the Queen, the text is rather harsh, and I wonder if Dowland would have taken the risk of setting to music a text less than complimentary for the Queen at the same time as he was hoping to become the court's lutenist - even a vague allusion to Liz being fruitless rather than virgin could get you in hot water in those days... On 5/25/19 12:39 PM, guy_and_liz Smith wrote: At a seminar I attended some years ago, Pat O'Brien made a plausible case that C an She Excuse (which is based on the Earl of Essex galliard) is a veiled referen ce to the relationship between Elizabeth and Robert, Earl of Essex. They were wi dely believed to be lovers early on, but it didn't last and there's apparently a letter from him to Elizabeth sent during his tenure as Lord Lieutenant of Irela nd (which was less than successful), complaining of ill treatment by her. Robert ultimately was accused of treason and executed. Guy -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[3]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Beha lf Of Alain Veylit Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2019 12:03 PM To: Tristan von Neumann; [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes I get your point Tristan. Ann Boleyn might have disagreed with you though regarding the status of women in 16th century England. But I guess you can add that to your list of evidence that Queen Liz was really a guy :) And I found no evidence that Dowland's pining love songs were even indirectly connected to the aging queen. Which is interesting in itself, though not totally surprising. On 5/25/19 11:36 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: On 25.05.19 20:00, Alain Veylit wrote: Dude, you lived in a completely patriarchal society and you still manage to blame her for torturing you! ) I knew it!!! Queen Elizabeth was a man!!! To get on or off this list see list information at [5]https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.cs.dartmou th.edu%2F~wbc%2Flute-admin%2Findex.htmldata%7C01%7C%7Ccd059cfc782d4a4e65e50 8d6e143c597%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636944078538562741 sdata=JioV0BfXt%2BNsGlgZ61EWqfKK9aat4p71eiVb22Veii8%3Dreserved=0 -- References 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can_She_Excuse_My_Wrongs 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htmldata|01||cd059cfc782d4a4e65e508d6e143c597|84df9e7fe9f640afb435|1|0|636944078538562741sdata=JioV0BfXt+NsGlgZ61EWqfKK9aat4p71eiVb22Veii8=reserved=0
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
At a seminar I attended some years ago, Pat O'Brien made a plausible case that Can She Excuse (which is based on the Earl of Essex galliard) is a veiled reference to the relationship between Elizabeth and Robert, Earl of Essex. They were widely believed to be lovers early on, but it didn't last and there's apparently a letter from him to Elizabeth sent during his tenure as Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (which was less than successful), complaining of ill treatment by her. Robert ultimately was accused of treason and executed. Guy -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Alain Veylit Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2019 12:03 PM To: Tristan von Neumann; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes I get your point Tristan. Ann Boleyn might have disagreed with you though regarding the status of women in 16th century England. But I guess you can add that to your list of evidence that Queen Liz was really a guy :) And I found no evidence that Dowland's pining love songs were even indirectly connected to the aging queen. Which is interesting in itself, though not totally surprising. On 5/25/19 11:36 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: > > On 25.05.19 20:00, Alain Veylit wrote: >> Dude, you lived in a completely patriarchal society and you still >> manage to blame her for torturing you! ) >> > > I knew it!!! Queen Elizabeth was a man!!! > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.cs.dartmouth.edu%2F~wbc%2Flute-admin%2Findex.htmldata=02%7C01%7C%7Ccd059cfc782d4a4e65e508d6e143c597%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636944078538562741sdata=JioV0BfXt%2BNsGlgZ61EWqfKK9aat4p71eiVb22Veii8%3Dreserved=0
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
I get your point Tristan. Ann Boleyn might have disagreed with you though regarding the status of women in 16th century England. But I guess you can add that to your list of evidence that Queen Liz was really a guy :) And I found no evidence that Dowland's pining love songs were even indirectly connected to the aging queen. Which is interesting in itself, though not totally surprising. On 5/25/19 11:36 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: On 25.05.19 20:00, Alain Veylit wrote: Dude, you lived in a completely patriarchal society and you still manage to blame her for torturing you! ) I knew it!!! Queen Elizabeth was a man!!! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
On 25.05.19 20:00, Alain Veylit wrote: Dude, you lived in a completely patriarchal society and you still manage to blame her for torturing you! ) I knew it!!! Queen Elizabeth was a man!!! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
I remember reading somewhere (I can't remember where) that the lay-out of the First Booke of Songes is remarkably similar to, not to say identical with that of a manuscript source: BL 31390. A facsimile of that source is available at [1]https://www.diamm.ac.uk/sources/1888/#/ It is worth mentioning that there appear to be a number of exact concordances between BL 31390 and a number of pieces in the Paston lute books. Jeremy Noble published an article (in French) on BL 31390 (in La Musique Instrumentale de la Renaissance (ed. Jean Jacquot, 1955), which includes a detailed list of concordances, including references to lute sources. If you are interested, I can send you a pdf of the article. André Nieuwlaat Op za 25 mei 2019 om 20:18 schreef Alain Veylit <[2]al...@musickshandmade.com>: It is enough to click the Send button on a question to the lute list for Google to bring you (some of) the answer one second later... It was indeed the first. "While he was in London, Dowland published his first collection of music, The First Booke of Songes or Ayres of Foure Partes with Tableture for the Lute (1597). It was an outstanding success - it was reprinted at least four times - and broke new ground in several respects. It was the first published collection of English lute songs, and was the first publication to use the ingenious 'table layout', which allowed for performance in many different ways. At that time, vocal ensemble music was usually published in sets of small part-books, but Dowland used a single large volume with all the parts for each piece distributed around the sides of a single opening. The songs can be performed by a single individual singing the tune and playing the tablature accompaniment, as a four-part song with or without lute, or with viols replacing or doubling some or all of the voices. The collection was also novel in that the compositional devices associated with the madrigal were conspicuous by their absence. All the songs are strophic, most of them use dance rhythms and patterns, and some of them are arrangements of existing lute dances. Madrigal-like word painting and counterpoint are more in evidence in Dowland's later song books, published in 1600, 1603 and 1612. A few songs in the 1612 volume, A Pilgrimes Solace, also show that he had become aware of the new declamatory style of his Italian contemporaries." From: [1][3]http://www.hoasm.org/IVM/Dowland.html I am wondering if the Golden age of the lute in England does not owe as much to the talent of the printers as to that of the musicians ... At the very least, it is very interesting to see Dowland's name associated with a small technological revolution. On 5/25/19 11:00 AM, Alain Veylit wrote: What is the current consensus on the authorship of the verses in Dowland's 1st book of songes (1597)? Any attributions to some one other than Dowland himself? Also, I'll take any information about the actual printing job: is it the first example of the layout with lute + cantus on one page and the 3 other parts on the facing page in a clockwise arrangement so the parts could be read from three sides of a table? (I am personally much more impressed by the technological prowess of the printers than by the poetry of the lyrics, that I find overly whiny ... Dude, you lived in a completely patriarchal society and you still manage to blame her for torturing you! ) Thanks for your input! To get on or off this list see list information at [2][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]http://www.hoasm.org/IVM/Dowland.html 2. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://www.diamm.ac.uk/sources/1888/#/ 2. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 3. http://www.hoasm.org/IVM/Dowland.html 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.hoasm.org/IVM/Dowland.html 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
It is enough to click the Send button on a question to the lute list for Google to bring you (some of) the answer one second later... It was indeed the first. "While he was in London, Dowland published his first collection of music, The First Booke of Songes or Ayres of Foure Partes with Tableture for the Lute (1597). It was an outstanding success - it was reprinted at least four times - and broke new ground in several respects. It was the first published collection of English lute songs, and was the first publication to use the ingenious 'table layout', which allowed for performance in many different ways. At that time, vocal ensemble music was usually published in sets of small part-books, but Dowland used a single large volume with all the parts for each piece distributed around the sides of a single opening. The songs can be performed by a single individual singing the tune and playing the tablature accompaniment, as a four-part song with or without lute, or with viols replacing or doubling some or all of the voices. The collection was also novel in that the compositional devices associated with the madrigal were conspicuous by their absence. All the songs are strophic, most of them use dance rhythms and patterns, and some of them are arrangements of existing lute dances. Madrigal-like word painting and counterpoint are more in evidence in Dowland's later song books, published in 1600, 1603 and 1612. A few songs in the 1612 volume, A Pilgrimes Solace, also show that he had become aware of the new declamatory style of his Italian contemporaries." From: [1]http://www.hoasm.org/IVM/Dowland.html I am wondering if the Golden age of the lute in England does not owe as much to the talent of the printers as to that of the musicians ... At the very least, it is very interesting to see Dowland's name associated with a small technological revolution. On 5/25/19 11:00 AM, Alain Veylit wrote: What is the current consensus on the authorship of the verses in Dowland's 1st book of songes (1597)? Any attributions to some one other than Dowland himself? Also, I'll take any information about the actual printing job: is it the first example of the layout with lute + cantus on one page and the 3 other parts on the facing page in a clockwise arrangement so the parts could be read from three sides of a table? (I am personally much more impressed by the technological prowess of the printers than by the poetry of the lyrics, that I find overly whiny ... Dude, you lived in a completely patriarchal society and you still manage to blame her for torturing you! ) Thanks for your input! To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.hoasm.org/IVM/Dowland.html 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
That's the best book I know about the song books, unfortunately in German, but you could try to borrow it somewhere, I'm sure he writes also about the authors of the poems: https://www.amazon.de/Text-Musik-John-Dowland-Vokalkompositionen/dp/3888492076/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=John+Dowland+kelnberger=1558808113=gateway=8-1 If you need information about some specific songs write me a message, and I'll check it in the book. YuvalAm 25.05.2019 20:00 schrieb Alain Veylit : > > What is the current consensus on the authorship of the verses in > Dowland's 1st book of songes (1597)? Any attributions to some one other > than Dowland himself? > > Also, I'll take any information about the actual printing job: is it the > first example of the layout with lute + cantus on one page and the 3 > other parts on the facing page in a clockwise arrangement so the parts > could be read from three sides of a table? > > (I am personally much more impressed by the technological prowess of the > printers than by the poetry of the lyrics, that I find overly whiny ... > Dude, you lived in a completely patriarchal society and you still manage > to blame her for torturing you! ) > > Thanks for your input! > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
What is the current consensus on the authorship of the verses in Dowland's 1st book of songes (1597)? Any attributions to some one other than Dowland himself? Also, I'll take any information about the actual printing job: is it the first example of the layout with lute + cantus on one page and the 3 other parts on the facing page in a clockwise arrangement so the parts could be read from three sides of a table? (I am personally much more impressed by the technological prowess of the printers than by the poetry of the lyrics, that I find overly whiny ... Dude, you lived in a completely patriarchal society and you still manage to blame her for torturing you! ) Thanks for your input! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
