[LUTE] Re: Holbein

2015-09-17 Thread b...@symbol4.de 
   extreme resolution:

   https://www.google.com/culturalinstitute/asset-viewer/the-ambassadors/b
   QEWbLB26MG1LA?projectId=art-project

   enjoy!
   Bernd

   Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. September 2015 um 11:59 Uhr
   Von: "Martin Shepherd" 
   An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Betreff: [LUTE] Holbein
   Hi All,
   Does anyone have a highish resolution JPG of the Holbein "Ambassadors"
   lute they'd be willing to send me? It doesn't need to be the whole
   painting, just the lute.
   I thought I had one somewhere, but it seems to have disappeared into
   the digital ether.
   Thanks,
   Martin
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[LUTE] Re: Holbein

2015-09-17 Thread Dan Winheld 
That's the trouble with a 4th course gut octave string. Sometimes seems 
to break more often than a gut 1st. (on my 6 course, at least).


I believe it was meant to symbolize something- transience, imperfection, 
treachery in international politics,, or just the "Wabi-Sabi" - ness of 
a flawed universe.


But notice how limp & "stringy" it is, compared to the stiffness of the 
thin gut strings we use now.
Was that a characteristic peculiar only to thin gut octaves? Otherwise, 
the old sources (Dowland) seem to recommend rather stiff gut for the 
higher, thinner, tighter courses.


Or am I overthinking this?

Dan

On 9/17/2015 7:40 AM, Georges de Lucenay wrote:

Quelle negligence de la part de ces ambassadeurs : l'octave du 4eme
choeur est cassee!

--

Georges de Lucenay

11, rue du Prieure

71120 Charolles.


Tel. 06 77 77 12 33

--


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[LUTE] Re: Holbein

2015-09-17 Thread Bernhard Hofstoetter 
Yes, because they are not in agreement. 
(Oui, parce qu'ils ne sont pas d'accord.)

Bernhard

Georges de Lucenay  schrieb am Do, 17.9.2015:

 Betreff: [LUTE] Holbein
 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Datum: Donnerstag, 17. September, 2015 16:40 Uhr
 
    Quelle negligence
 de la part de ces ambassadeurs : l'octave du 4eme
    choeur est cassee!
 
    --
 
    Georges de Lucenay
 
    11, rue du Prieure
 
    71120 Charolles.
 
 
    Tel. 06 77 77 12 33
 
    --
 
 
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[LUTE] Re: Holbein

2015-09-17 Thread Wolfgang Wiehe 

   Hello Martin,
   try this one and zom in!
   greetings
   Wolfgang W.
   https://www.google.com/culturalinstitute/asset-viewer/the-ambassadors/b
   QEWbLB26MG1LA?hlTH=art-project

   Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. September 2015 um 11:59 Uhr
   Von: "Martin Shepherd" 
   An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Betreff: [LUTE] Holbein
   Hi All,
   Does anyone have a highish resolution JPG of the Holbein "Ambassadors"
   lute they'd be willing to send me? It doesn't need to be the whole
   painting, just the lute.
   I thought I had one somewhere, but it seems to have disappeared into
   the digital ether.
   Thanks,
   Martin
   __
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[LUTE] Re: Holbein

2015-09-17 Thread corun 
Martin,

Try this page from Art Web.

http://www.wga.hu/art/h/holbein/hans_y/1535a/5ambassa.jpg

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Craig Allen




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[LUTE] Re: Holbein

2015-09-17 Thread John Mardinly 
Of course the Google image you can't download. Try this link for the Wikimedia 
Commons site which has scans up to 30,000 x 29,560 (yes, 226 MB) for download:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=holbein+ambassadors=Special%3ASearch=1



A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer
EMail: john.mardi...@asu.edu
Cell: 408-921-3253 (does not work in TEM labs)
Titan Lab: 480-727-5651
NION UltraSTEM Lab: 480-727-5652
JEOL ARM 200 Lab: 480-727-5653
2010F Lab: 480-727-5654
Office: 480-965-7946
John Cowley Center for HREM, LE-CSSS
B134B Bateman Physical Sciences Building
Arizona State University
PO Box 871704
Tempe, AZ 85287-1704

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Wolfgang Wiehe
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 6:24 AM
To: Martin Shepherd
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Holbein


   Hello Martin,
   try this one and zom in!
   greetings
   Wolfgang W.
   https://www.google.com/culturalinstitute/asset-viewer/the-ambassadors/b
   QEWbLB26MG1LA?hlTH=art-project

   Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. September 2015 um 11:59 Uhr
   Von: "Martin Shepherd" <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
   An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Betreff: [LUTE] Holbein
   Hi All,
   Does anyone have a highish resolution JPG of the Holbein "Ambassadors"
   lute they'd be willing to send me? It doesn't need to be the whole
   painting, just the lute.
   I thought I had one somewhere, but it seems to have disappeared into
   the digital ether.
   Thanks,
   Martin
   __
   [1]Avast logo
   This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
   [2][1]www.avast.com
   --
   References
   1. [2]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   2. [3]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

References

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   2. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   3. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - bray harp

2011-02-10 Thread Martin Shepherd 

Dear Anthony and All,

This is a great mystery.  I can see no possible interpretation of 
Capirola's remarks other than the one you suggest - BUT I have tried it, 
and it doesn't work!  You can make some notes buzz some of the time, but 
I cannot see how you could possibly set it up so that all notes buzzed, 
and to roughly the same extent.  If you really want a buzzing effect, 
the obvious way to do it is to thread something between the strings just 
in front of the bridge.


Has anyone else tried it?

Best wishes,

Martin

On 09/02/2011 13:31, Anthony Hind wrote:

I find interesting your idea (which I recognize is just a passing suggestion,
and not a theory) that this lute might have been set-up for a Capriola Bray-harp
effect, by setting the string height and the frets in such a way as to
intensionly cause the strings to buzz on the equal frets. It would be
interesting to experiment such a set-up, to see what happens.






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[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - bray harp

2011-02-10 Thread alexander 
I get a consistent pleasant bray on all the frets, just using double frets. I 
assume, that if the bridge - neck relation on another lute would not allow it, 
using a little higher second fret in the pair would help. alexander r.


On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 09:46:47 +
Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote:

 Dear Anthony and All,
 
 This is a great mystery.  I can see no possible interpretation of 
 Capirola's remarks other than the one you suggest - BUT I have tried it, 
 and it doesn't work!  You can make some notes buzz some of the time, but 
 I cannot see how you could possibly set it up so that all notes buzzed, 
 and to roughly the same extent.  If you really want a buzzing effect, 
 the obvious way to do it is to thread something between the strings just 
 in front of the bridge.
 
 Has anyone else tried it?
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Martin
 
 On 09/02/2011 13:31, Anthony Hind wrote:
  I find interesting your idea (which I recognize is just a passing 
  suggestion,
  and not a theory) that this lute might have been set-up for a Capriola 
  Bray-harp
  effect, by setting the string height and the frets in such a way as to
  intensionly cause the strings to buzz on the equal frets. It would be
  interesting to experiment such a set-up, to see what happens.
 
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - bray harp

2011-02-10 Thread wikla 


Dear Martin and all,

years ago I tried something like that - piece of paper under the basses 
of 10-courser:


http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/own/Odysseia1992/16_Ballard_Branles_de_village_I_II.mp

It is on the Branle II, second half of the clip.

All the best,

Arto


On 10/02/11 11:46, Martin Shepherd wrote:

Dear Anthony and All,

This is a great mystery.  I can see no possible interpretation of 
Capirola's remarks other than the one you suggest - BUT I have tried 
it, and it doesn't work!  You can make some notes buzz some of the 
time, but I cannot see how you could possibly set it up so that all 
notes buzzed, and to roughly the same extent.  If you really want a 
buzzing effect, the obvious way to do it is to thread something 
between the strings just in front of the bridge.


Has anyone else tried it?

Best wishes,

Martin

On 09/02/2011 13:31, Anthony Hind wrote:
I find interesting your idea (which I recognize is just a passing 
suggestion,
and not a theory) that this lute might have been set-up for a 
Capriola Bray-harp

effect, by setting the string height and the frets in such a way as to
intensionly cause the strings to buzz on the equal frets. It would be
interesting to experiment such a set-up, to see what happens.






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[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - bray harp

2011-02-10 Thread David van Ooijen 
On 10 February 2011 10:46, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote:
 This is a great mystery.  I can see no possible interpretation of Capirola's 
 remarks other than the one you suggest - BUT I have tried it, and it doesn't 
 work!  You can make some notes buzz some of the time, but I cannot see how 
 you could possibly set it up so that all notes buzzed, and to roughly the 
 same extent.  If you really want a buzzing effect, the obvious way to do it 
 is to thread something between the strings just in front of the bridge.


Slightly off topic.
Japanese biwa (lute) and shamisen (banjo) are set up in such a manner
that there is a consistent buzz. It's called sawari and a desired part
of the sound.
On biwa, it's done with low string tension, high frets and a huge pick.
On shamisen, it's done by having no nut for the lowest string. This
string will often have an octave or fifth above it in one of the other
strings, so will buzz along if tuned pure. Modern shamisen will have a
a screw thought the neck, adjustable, the tip of which is just
touching the lowest string. This way you can adjust the amount of
buzzing. Huge pick and no frets also help buzzing. Pick banging on the
skin top adds more braying.

Here's my shami in action:

http://www.youtube.com/luitluit#p/a/A5560ED74E86C57B/0/0FH1rEJKJB8

David

--
***
David van Ooijen
davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - bray harp

2011-02-10 Thread R. Mattes 
On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 09:46:47 +, Martin Shepherd wrote
 Dear Anthony and All,
 
 This is a great mystery.  I can see no possible interpretation of 
 Capirola's remarks other than the one you suggest - BUT I have tried 
 it, and it doesn't work!  You can make some notes buzz some of the 
 time, but I cannot see how you could possibly set it up so that all 
 notes buzzed, and to roughly the same extent.  If you really want a 
 buzzing effect, the obvious way to do it is to thread something 
 between the strings just in front of the bridge.
 
 Has anyone else tried it?

Yes, Crawford Young did extensive research  experiments on this
topic. IIRC the double-fret method didn't yield any convincing result, but
you might want to contact Crawford to get all the details.

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes


  
 Best wishes,
 
 Martin
 
 On 09/02/2011 13:31, Anthony Hind wrote:
  I find interesting your idea (which I recognize is just a passing 
  suggestion,
  and not a theory) that this lute might have been set-up for a Capriola
Bray-harp
  effect, by setting the string height and the frets in such a way as to
  intensionly cause the strings to buzz on the equal frets. It would be
  interesting to experiment such a set-up, to see what happens.
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--
R. Mattes -- Systemeinheitsstreichler
Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de

[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - bray harp

2011-02-10 Thread wikla 


Sorry, 3 was missing at the end of address! Should be

http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/own/Odysseia1992/16_Ballard_Branles_de_village_I_II.mp3

so .mp3

Arto


On 10/02/11 12:00, wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:


Dear Martin and all,

years ago I tried something like that - piece of paper under the 
basses of 10-courser:


http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/own/Odysseia1992/16_Ballard_Branles_de_village_I_II.mp 



It is on the Branle II, second half of the clip.

All the best,

Arto


On 10/02/11 11:46, Martin Shepherd wrote:

Dear Anthony and All,

This is a great mystery.  I can see no possible interpretation of 
Capirola's remarks other than the one you suggest - BUT I have tried 
it, and it doesn't work!  You can make some notes buzz some of the 
time, but I cannot see how you could possibly set it up so that all 
notes buzzed, and to roughly the same extent.  If you really want a 
buzzing effect, the obvious way to do it is to thread something 
between the strings just in front of the bridge.


Has anyone else tried it?

Best wishes,

Martin

On 09/02/2011 13:31, Anthony Hind wrote:
I find interesting your idea (which I recognize is just a passing 
suggestion,
and not a theory) that this lute might have been set-up for a 
Capriola Bray-harp

effect, by setting the string height and the frets in such a way as to
intensionly cause the strings to buzz on the equal frets. It would be
interesting to experiment such a set-up, to see what happens.






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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - bray harp

2011-02-10 Thread Anthony Hind 
Dear Arto
 Very interesting that it was on the Branles that you decided to use 
this. 
That is what I thought of, in relation to the Dances of Attaingnant which 
appeared just before the date of this painting.

Unfortunately, I was banned from listening to your recording ...
Anthony




- Message d'origine 
De : wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
À : Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk
Cc : Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Envoyé le : Jeu 10 février 2011, 11h 00min 36s
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - bray harp


Dear Martin and all,

years ago I tried something like that - piece of paper under the basses of 
10-courser:

http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/own/Odysseia1992/16_Ballard_Branles_de_village_I_II.mp


It is on the Branle II, second half of the clip.

All the best,

Arto


On 10/02/11 11:46, Martin Shepherd wrote:
 Dear Anthony and All,
 
 This is a great mystery.  I can see no possible interpretation of Capirola's 
remarks other than the one you suggest - BUT I have tried it, and it doesn't 
work!  You can make some notes buzz some of the time, but I cannot see how you 
could possibly set it up so that all notes buzzed, and to roughly the same 
extent.  If you really want a buzzing effect, the obvious way to do it is to 
thread something between the strings just in front of the bridge.
 
 Has anyone else tried it?
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Martin
 
 On 09/02/2011 13:31, Anthony Hind wrote:
 I find interesting your idea (which I recognize is just a passing suggestion,
 and not a theory) that this lute might have been set-up for a Capriola 
Bray-harp
 effect, by setting the string height and the frets in such a way as to
 intensionly cause the strings to buzz on the equal frets. It would be
 interesting to experiment such a set-up, to see what happens.
 
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - bray harp

2011-02-10 Thread Anthony Hind 
Very interesting effect, Arto, which makes the effect more plausible with the 
pieces of Attaingnant.
Charles Besnainou does seem to have succeeded in producing a buzz with double 
frets, however only by spreading the frets to achieve some sort of buzzing. 

This is clearly not the satet of the lute in the painting.

I add a part of his message in French:

http://fr.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Le_luth/message/10039
Le réglage consiste à écarter les deux brins l'un de l'autre jusqu'à
faire surgir le frémissement. (...)
Toute la difficulté est de réaliser cet effet avec une distance entre
les brins aussi petite que possible, de telle sorte que le
frémissement dure tout au long de la vibration de la corde, jusque
dans le pianissimo, sinon le frisement ne se déclenche que lorsque
l'amplitude de vibration est grande et s'arrête pour les amplitudes
faibles, alors cela devient un défaut.
(...)

Je pense que l'on peut interpréter le texte de Capirola dans je sens
où la première frette signifie le premier brin et la suivante, le
second brin, parce que le frettage double est beaucoup plus présent
dans l'iconographie des luths que la frettage simple, en tout cas d'un
usage plus tardif qu'au le début du XVI ème. Ch B
Regards
Anthony



- Message d'origine 
De : wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
À : Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk; Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Envoyé le : Jeu 10 février 2011, 12h 42min 04s
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - bray harp


Sorry, 3 was missing at the end of address! Should be

http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/own/Odysseia1992/16_Ballard_Branles_de_village_I_II.mp3


so .mp3

Arto


On 10/02/11 12:00, wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:
 
 Dear Martin and all,
 
 years ago I tried something like that - piece of paper under the basses of 
10-courser:
 
http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/own/Odysseia1992/16_Ballard_Branles_de_village_I_II.mp
p 

 
 It is on the Branle II, second half of the clip.
 
 All the best,
 
 Arto
 
 
 On 10/02/11 11:46, Martin Shepherd wrote:
 Dear Anthony and All,
 
 This is a great mystery.  I can see no possible interpretation of Capirola's 
remarks other than the one you suggest - BUT I have tried it, and it doesn't 
work!  You can make some notes buzz some of the time, but I cannot see how 
you 
could possibly set it up so that all notes buzzed, and to roughly the same 
extent.  If you really want a buzzing effect, the obvious way to do it is to 
thread something between the strings just in front of the bridge.
 
 Has anyone else tried it?
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Martin
 
 On 09/02/2011 13:31, Anthony Hind wrote:
 I find interesting your idea (which I recognize is just a passing 
suggestion,
 and not a theory) that this lute might have been set-up for a Capriola 
Bray-harp
 effect, by setting the string height and the frets in such a way as to
 intensionly cause the strings to buzz on the equal frets. It would be
 interesting to experiment such a set-up, to see what happens.
 
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy

2011-02-09 Thread Martyn Hodgson 

   Dear Anthony,

   Thanks for this. On further reflection some other aspects come to mind:

   1. Most particularly, the difference between precision (the number of
   significant figures to which something is measured) and accuracy (how
   near the measurement is to the object being measured). For example a
   lute treble (of notional diameter, say, 0.49mm) may be given with a
   measurement of 4.8743215689mm, which is certainly very precise (to 1 in
   10,000millionth) but very inaccurate, or with a diameter of 0.5mm,
   which is much more accurate but not very precise.
   In the context of Holbein's wonderful painting, this may be translated
   as saying that he represented items with great precision but, perhaps,
   not always quite accurately. Thus, for example, the frets seem very
   finely executed but perhaps the graduation was not anything that
   bothered him (or his assistant). Other features which we find
   troubling/interesting (eg strings coming off the top of the bridge, nut
   rebate) may also be painted with great precision but maybe not with
   total accuracy

   2. Leaving this idea aside and my earlier speculation that equal frets
   might be an attempt to counter a lifting neck or to make a Bray
   harp-like sound (Capirola), we should not overlook the possibility that
   fretting in the England in the early 16th century WAS of equal size:
   the likely repertoire might not be so virtuosic as to demand the finest
   set (lowest 'action') to the lute (as Dowland and later required).

   Martyn


   --- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote:

 From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com
 Subject: Re : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting [Google Art project] frets
 and bridge
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 18:02

   Thanks Martyn, I should have given you more time to think about this.
   At a glance you're right,  the fretting does look all the same
  diameter!  Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and
   that's
  all it is!) is : if the neck had pulled up this might have been done
   so
  as to reduce the action by using a much thinner than normal upper
  frets.
   Right, if we use equal frets to compensate for a raised kneck, then we
   would use
   equal but thin frets? Would you think this is the case, here?
   Dowland suggests Fret 1 and 2: shoudl have the value of the
   countertenor, ie
   4th course?
   Of course it is hard to evaluate from a painting and with zoom, and
   also the
   frets are double, but the thickness of the top fret (and all the
   others) looks
   about equivalent to the fourth string.
   However, I think it might be a little silly to be too literal in
   measures from a
   painting.
   The thing which made me feel that the lute might be deliberately chosen
   with a
   problematic setting (either kneck pulled up, or badly fretted) is the
   way the
   other instruments are said to be misaligned, according to the
   articles I have
   glanced over; but I agree with Lex that it is hard to say anything for
   sure.
   It is rather that I read several lutenists mentioning the thin strings,
   as
   though we could be sure this is good practise of the time.
   regards
   Anthony
  My earlier response to Anthony:
  Anthony
  Sorry to delay answering - I will reply to this but if you're in a
   rush
  then send it off. I need to spend proper time studying the  picture.
  At a glance you're right,  the fretting does look all the same
  diameter!  Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and
   that's
  all it is!) is : if the neck had pulled up this might have been done
   so
  as to reduce the action by using a much thinner than normal upper
  frets. Alternatively, some early writer (Gerle?) mentions an effect
   of
  strings buzzing on frets (I think to cut through like a Bray harp) -
  could this lute be set up to play like this?
  Also the strings do indeed seem to come from the top of the bridge
   (or
  almost) - this is not really possible since in practice since simple
  statics will make the point half way between the top of the string
   hole
  and top of the bridge. However it could be that the maker has made
   the
  distance VERY small (looks a bit like this);  also if the tension is
  fairly low then static friction can hold the strings in a higher (or
  lowever) position if required. Do some tests yourself and see how
   easy
  or hard it is to make a string leave from the top of the bridge.
  rgds
  Martyn
  --- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hind [1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote:
From: Anthony Hind [2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com
Subject: Tr : Re : [LUTE] [off list] Google Art project
To: Ed Durbrow [3]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp, Martyn Hodgson
[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: [5]lute

[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy

2011-02-09 Thread Sauvage Valery 
   -Message d'origine-

   we should not overlook the possibility that

  fretting in the England in the early 16th century WAS of equal size

   --

   Perhaps we should keep in mind the two men painted were French (Jean de
   Dinteville was ambassador in London when the painting was made, and
   Georges de Selve was giving him a visit.)

   And Jean de Dinteville (again painted as a man with a lute :
   [1]http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Hans_Holbein_d._J._072.jpg )
   perhaps bring his lute with him. So is the way of fretting English or
   French (or both ?)

   Any idea, regarding the lute, of its origine ? (Italy ?)

   V.

   --

References

   1. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Hans_Holbein_d._J._072.jpg


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[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy

2011-02-09 Thread Jarosław Lipski 
I wonder to what extent we can rely on painter's accuracy...e.g.. big 
bridge holes. As far as I can remember it was said that the evidence 
suggests narrow BH which was to support the loaded strings theory. On 
Holbein's painting we have enormous holes in comparison to the string 
gauges on the lute. Would a painter bother about realistic hole diameter ?
The same with high action. No one could examine that lute if it was 
playable, or was a professional instrument.or maybe it was just a prop.
On the other hand one of my lutes have an equal fretting and is very 
easy to play.


JL


W dniu 2011-02-09 09:49, Martyn Hodgson pisze:

Dear Anthony,

Thanks for this. On further reflection some other aspects come to mind:

1. Most particularly, the difference between precision (the number of
significant figures to which something is measured) and accuracy (how
near the measurement is to the object being measured). For example a
lute treble (of notional diameter, say, 0.49mm) may be given with a
measurement of 4.8743215689mm, which is certainly very precise (to 1 in
10,000millionth) but very inaccurate, or with a diameter of 0.5mm,
which is much more accurate but not very precise.
In the context of Holbein's wonderful painting, this may be translated
as saying that he represented items with great precision but, perhaps,
not always quite accurately. Thus, for example, the frets seem very
finely executed but perhaps the graduation was not anything that
bothered him (or his assistant). Other features which we find
troubling/interesting (eg strings coming off the top of the bridge, nut
rebate) may also be painted with great precision but maybe not with
total accuracy

2. Leaving this idea aside and my earlier speculation that equal frets
might be an attempt to counter a lifting neck or to make a Bray
harp-like sound (Capirola), we should not overlook the possibility that
fretting in the England in the early 16th century WAS of equal size:
the likely repertoire might not be so virtuosic as to demand the finest
set (lowest 'action') to the lute (as Dowland and later required).

Martyn


--- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hindagno3ph...@yahoo.com  wrote:

  From: Anthony Hindagno3ph...@yahoo.com
  Subject: Re : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting [Google Art project] frets
  and bridge
  To: Martyn Hodgsonhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 18:02

Thanks Martyn, I should have given you more time to think about this.
At a glance you're right,  the fretting does look all the same
   diameter!  Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and
that's
   all it is!) is : if the neck had pulled up this might have been done
so
   as to reduce the action by using a much thinner than normal upper
   frets.
Right, if we use equal frets to compensate for a raised kneck, then we
would use
equal but thin frets? Would you think this is the case, here?
Dowland suggests Fret 1 and 2: shoudl have the value of the
countertenor, ie
4th course?
Of course it is hard to evaluate from a painting and with zoom, and
also the
frets are double, but the thickness of the top fret (and all the
others) looks
about equivalent to the fourth string.
However, I think it might be a little silly to be too literal in
measures from a
painting.
The thing which made me feel that the lute might be deliberately chosen
with a
problematic setting (either kneck pulled up, or badly fretted) is the
way the
other instruments are said to be misaligned, according to the
articles I have
glanced over; but I agree with Lex that it is hard to say anything for
sure.
It is rather that I read several lutenists mentioning the thin strings,
as
though we could be sure this is good practise of the time.
regards
Anthony
   My earlier response to Anthony:
   Anthony
   Sorry to delay answering - I will reply to this but if you're in a
rush
   then send it off. I need to spend proper time studying the  picture.
   At a glance you're right,  the fretting does look all the same
   diameter!  Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and
that's
   all it is!) is : if the neck had pulled up this might have been done
so
   as to reduce the action by using a much thinner than normal upper
   frets. Alternatively, some early writer (Gerle?) mentions an effect
of
   strings buzzing on frets (I think to cut through like a Bray harp) -
   could this lute be set up to play like this?
   Also the strings do indeed seem to come from the top of the bridge
(or
   almost) - this is not really possible since in practice since simple
   statics will make the point half way between the top of the string
hole

[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy

2011-02-09 Thread Jarosław Lipski 
   Here you are:
   [1]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambasado
   rs
   All the best
   JL

   W dniu 2011-02-09 13:51, Karen Hore pisze:

 Can anyone tell me which gallery the Holbein is in? I've been
 looking on GoogleArt but haven't seen it yet?

   Is was on GoogleArt? Or did I have a senior moment.
   Karen
   [2]karen.h...@gmail.com
   On 9 Feb 2011, at 11:18, Jarosl/aw Lipski wrote:

   I wonder to what extent we can rely on painter's accuracy...e.g.. big
   bridge holes. As far as I can remember it was said that the evidence
   suggests narrow BH which was to support the loaded strings theory. On
   Holbein's painting we have enormous holes in comparison to the string
   gauges on the lute. Would a painter bother about realistic hole
   diameter ?
   The same with high action. No one could examine that lute if it was
   playable, or was a professional instrumentor maybe it was just a
   prop.
   On the other hand one of my lutes have an equal fretting and is very
   easy to play.
   JL

 
 ---
 Tekst wstawiony przez Panda GP 2011:
 Jesli nie chcesz otrzymywac podobnych wiadomosci, wybierz ponizszy
 link, aby zaklasyfikowac ten e-mail jako SPAM: [3]To jest SPAM!
 
 ---

   --

References

   1. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambasadors
   2. mailto:karen.h...@gmail.com
   3. 
http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_268SPAM=truepath=C:%5CDocuments%20and%20Settings%5Cuser%5CUstawienia%20lokalne%5CDane%20aplikacji%5CPanda%20Security%5CPanda%20Global%20Protection%202011%5CAntiSpam


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[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy

2011-02-09 Thread Anthony Hind 
Dear Martyn
 I agree with your distinction between precision and accuracy, and possibly 
relative or absolute values. However, interestingly, Holbein (and perhaps his 
assistants) did show the gradation of treble to bass strings, but not of lower 
to upper fret. I suppose, the latter might be less evident to a non specialist, 
or be felt irrelevant to the perspective effect of the painting. On the other 
hand, as you also say, this lack of gradation might be significant. 


I find interesting your idea (which I recognize is just a passing suggestion, 
and not a theory) that this lute might have been set-up for a Capriola 
Bray-harp 
effect, by setting the string height and the frets in such a way as to 
intensionly cause the strings to buzz on the equal frets. It would be 
interesting to experiment such a set-up, to see what happens.

Is it possible that this lute, with its string height and particular fret 
setting might have been recognizable as typically French, taking account of 
what 
Val points out. Some of those French dance pieces (dating from  just before the 
painting, see Pierre Attaignant, Paris 1529-30) les  Basses Dances, the 
Branles, 
etc, might have sounded quite good with such a bray  harp buzz. 

It would be nice (if perhaps unlikely?) to think that such a lute might evoke 
this recently published music (just as many of the other items painted evoke 
the 
recent state of the art, see the terrestrial globe, thought to be based on a 
lost globe of 1522 by Johannes Shoener).

(This would be a little like the suggestion of Dana Emery, about the 
misaligned instruments, who wonders, assuming the instruments were borrowed, 
perhaps they were still set from some ocean trip, and not the masters, but some 
gentlemans aboard who did not use them daily, then perhaps the settings are a 
clue to the voyage. DE

Such a set up, if recognizable by lutenist viewer, and if it was not a general 
practise, but a well known variant, could also perhaps participate in some way, 
in the symbolism.

However, Charles Besnainou (who has written articles on the Bray-harp), on this 
topic, 

http://www.harpes-anciennes.com/en/harpions.html
gave a different reading of the Capriola text (to the French list) in which the 
double fretting might be deliberately set a little spread out so as to enhance 
the buzzing (Charles tried to reproduce a sort of Bray-pin effect with this). I 
don't exactly remember what he said, but I think he took Capriola's first and 
second frets to mean top and bottom of the double fret, and he tried to 
obtain 
some sort of tanpura-like reinforcement of the harmonics.
(I have not been able to find a link to his message).
Exactly what Stephen Gottlieb was trying to avoid when he burnished down the 
upper part of the double frets on my lute. The accuracy of the painting is at 
least sufficient to show that there is no spreading of the double frets, either 
for deliberately causing buzzing, or to use them as tastini.

Yes, I admit I am allowing my imagination to run away again. There are many 
potential interpretations, and no obvious way of proving any.

Anthony


   Dear Anthony,

   Thanks for this. On further reflection some other aspects come to mind:

   1. Most particularly, the difference between precision (the number of
   significant figures to which something is measured) and accuracy (how
   near the measurement is to the object being measured). For example a
   lute treble (of notional diameter, say, 0.49mm) may be given with a
   measurement of 4.8743215689mm, which is certainly very precise (to 1 in
   10,000millionth) but very inaccurate, or with a diameter of 0.5mm,
   which is much more accurate but not very precise.
   In the context of Holbein's wonderful painting, this may be translated
   as saying that he represented items with great precision but, perhaps,
   not always quite accurately. Thus, for example, the frets seem very
   finely executed but perhaps the graduation was not anything that
   bothered him (or his assistant). Other features which we find
   troubling/interesting (eg strings coming off the top of the bridge, nut
   rebate) may also be painted with great precision but maybe not with
   total accuracy

   2. Leaving this idea aside and my earlier speculation that equal frets
   might be an attempt to counter a lifting neck or to make a Bray
   harp-like sound (Capirola), we should not overlook the possibility that
   fretting in the England in the early 16th century WAS of equal size:
   the likely repertoire might not be so virtuosic as to demand the finest
   set (lowest 'action') to the lute (as Dowland and later required).

   Martyn


   --- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote:

 From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com
 Subject: Re : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting [Google Art project] frets
 and bridge
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 8 February

[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy

2011-02-09 Thread Anthony Hind 
Yes of course you are right about the painting not necessarily being accurate. 
Although Val's arguments seem rather good to make us think it was the 
ambassador's lute.

Generally, I think lute makers use as small a hole as they can get away with 
(at 
least they seem to do so now). Whenever I have changed to a thicker string 
types 
(change of pitch diapason, for example) I have had to have the hole widened. 
Lute makers don't seem to allow for this. I suppose the smaller the hole, the 
stronger the bridge? Although, the larger the number of courses and the bigger 
the basses, the more important that would become, perhaps?

So I suppose the thinness of the strings in relation to the holes doesn't make 
much sense.
You are right that at least on later Baroque lutes th small size of the holes 
has been used to argue for loaded strings, but possibly not on a lute like 
this. 
I wonder?
Anthony






- Message d'origine 
De : Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
À : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Envoyé le : Mer 9 février 2011, 12h 18min 24s
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy

I wonder to what extent we can rely on painter's accuracy...e.g.. big 
bridge holes. As far as I can remember it was said that the evidence 
suggests narrow BH which was to support the loaded strings theory. On 
Holbein's painting we have enormous holes in comparison to the string 
gauges on the lute. Would a painter bother about realistic hole diameter ?
The same with high action. No one could examine that lute if it was 
playable, or was a professional instrument.or maybe it was just a prop.
On the other hand one of my lutes have an equal fretting and is very 
easy to play.

JL


W dniu 2011-02-09 09:49, Martyn Hodgson pisze:
 Dear Anthony,

 Thanks for this. On further reflection some other aspects come to mind:

 1. Most particularly, the difference between precision (the number of
 significant figures to which something is measured) and accuracy (how
 near the measurement is to the object being measured). For example a
 lute treble (of notional diameter, say, 0.49mm) may be given with a
 measurement of 4.8743215689mm, which is certainly very precise (to 1 in
 10,000millionth) but very inaccurate, or with a diameter of 0.5mm,
 which is much more accurate but not very precise.
 In the context of Holbein's wonderful painting, this may be translated
 as saying that he represented items with great precision but, perhaps,
 not always quite accurately. Thus, for example, the frets seem very
 finely executed but perhaps the graduation was not anything that
 bothered him (or his assistant). Other features which we find
 troubling/interesting (eg strings coming off the top of the bridge, nut
 rebate) may also be painted with great precision but maybe not with
 total accuracy

 2. Leaving this idea aside and my earlier speculation that equal frets
 might be an attempt to counter a lifting neck or to make a Bray
 harp-like sound (Capirola), we should not overlook the possibility that
 fretting in the England in the early 16th century WAS of equal size:
 the likely repertoire might not be so virtuosic as to demand the finest
 set (lowest 'action') to the lute (as Dowland and later required).

 Martyn


 --- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hindagno3ph...@yahoo.com  wrote:

   From: Anthony Hindagno3ph...@yahoo.com
   Subject: Re : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting [Google Art project] frets
   and bridge
   To: Martyn Hodgsonhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 18:02

 Thanks Martyn, I should have given you more time to think about this.
 At a glance you're right,  the fretting does look all the same
diameter!  Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and
 that's
all it is!) is : if the neck had pulled up this might have been done
 so
as to reduce the action by using a much thinner than normal upper
frets.
 Right, if we use equal frets to compensate for a raised kneck, then we
 would use
 equal but thin frets? Would you think this is the case, here?
 Dowland suggests Fret 1 and 2: shoudl have the value of the
 countertenor, ie
 4th course?
 Of course it is hard to evaluate from a painting and with zoom, and
 also the
 frets are double, but the thickness of the top fret (and all the
 others) looks
 about equivalent to the fourth string.
 However, I think it might be a little silly to be too literal in
 measures from a
 painting.
 The thing which made me feel that the lute might be deliberately chosen
 with a
 problematic setting (either kneck pulled up, or badly fretted) is the
 way the
 other instruments are said to be misaligned, according to the
 articles I have
 glanced over; but I agree

[LUTE] Re: Holbein fret spacing (Re: Google Art project)

2011-02-09 Thread Christopher Wilke 
Howard,

--- On Wed, 2/9/11, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote:

 
 I didn't try to extrapolate an overall mensur, or what an
 ET fretting would be, because the picture doesn't show the
 whole lute.  But after the second fret the frets are
 all 15 or 16 units apart, which would give a scale nothing
 like anything in Western music.
 --

Until now.  You have just discovered a new temperament.  Using a ruler, I have 
just set my frets to Posner-comma-Holbein Ambassador.  I hate the way it 
sounds, but love being so HIP.

Chris  


  



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[LUTE] Re: Holbein fret spacing (Re: Google Art project)

2011-02-09 Thread Sean Smith 


Just to be saucy, I'd call it HP.

Sean


On Feb 9, 2011, at 12:17 PM, Christopher Wilke wrote:

Howard,

--- On Wed, 2/9/11, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote:



I didn't try to extrapolate an overall mensur, or what an
ET fretting would be, because the picture doesn't show the
whole lute.  But after the second fret the frets are
all 15 or 16 units apart, which would give a scale nothing
like anything in Western music.
--


Until now.  You have just discovered a new temperament.  Using a  
ruler, I have just set my frets to Posner-comma-Holbein Ambassador.   
I hate the way it sounds, but love being so HIP.


Chris






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[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy

2011-02-09 Thread Jarosław Lipski 

Anthony,

I agree, it is possible that Holbein painted the ambassador's lute. 
However, there is some inconsistency in the way he treated details. Some 
of them are very accurate (like the music), some are not (the globe). On 
the other hand we don't know who was wrong Holbein or the drawing on the 
globe (they didn't have computers then and we don't know who was a 
cartographer). If he was able to depict proportions of string gauges, 
then why suddenly he lost all his patience while painting the bridge 
holes ? One can see that he used very small diameter brushes, so there 
wouldn't have been any problem, had he seen proper size holes on the 
lute. Maybe he was not a lute expert, but I think he just saw big holes 
on the instrument. What was the history of that instrument?. Maybe the 
owner changed stringing for lighter one, but it's difficult to imagine 
such a thick gut to fit the hole on 6c and to sound reasonably well.

Hmmreally makes me wonder.
All best

Jaroslaw


W dniu 2011-02-09 16:02, Anthony Hind pisze:

Yes of course you are right about the painting not necessarily being accurate.
Although Val's arguments seem rather good to make us think it was the
ambassador's lute.

Generally, I think lute makers use as small a hole as they can get away with (at
least they seem to do so now). Whenever I have changed to a thicker string types
(change of pitch diapason, for example) I have had to have the hole widened.
Lute makers don't seem to allow for this. I suppose the smaller the hole, the
stronger the bridge? Although, the larger the number of courses and the bigger
the basses, the more important that would become, perhaps?

So I suppose the thinness of the strings in relation to the holes doesn't make
much sense.
You are right that at least on later Baroque lutes th small size of the holes
has been used to argue for loaded strings, but possibly not on a lute like this.
I wonder?
Anthony






- Message d'origine 
De : Jarosław Lipskijaroslawlip...@wp.pl
À : lute@cs.dartmouth.edulute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Envoyé le : Mer 9 février 2011, 12h 18min 24s
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy

I wonder to what extent we can rely on painter's accuracy...e.g.. big
bridge holes. As far as I can remember it was said that the evidence
suggests narrow BH which was to support the loaded strings theory. On
Holbein's painting we have enormous holes in comparison to the string
gauges on the lute. Would a painter bother about realistic hole diameter ?
The same with high action. No one could examine that lute if it was
playable, or was a professional instrument.or maybe it was just a prop.
On the other hand one of my lutes have an equal fretting and is very
easy to play.

JL


W dniu 2011-02-09 09:49, Martyn Hodgson pisze:

 Dear Anthony,

 Thanks for this. On further reflection some other aspects come to mind:

 1. Most particularly, the difference between precision (the number of
 significant figures to which something is measured) and accuracy (how
 near the measurement is to the object being measured). For example a
 lute treble (of notional diameter, say, 0.49mm) may be given with a
 measurement of 4.8743215689mm, which is certainly very precise (to 1 in
 10,000millionth) but very inaccurate, or with a diameter of 0.5mm,
 which is much more accurate but not very precise.
 In the context of Holbein's wonderful painting, this may be translated
 as saying that he represented items with great precision but, perhaps,
 not always quite accurately. Thus, for example, the frets seem very
 finely executed but perhaps the graduation was not anything that
 bothered him (or his assistant). Other features which we find
 troubling/interesting (eg strings coming off the top of the bridge, nut
 rebate) may also be painted with great precision but maybe not with
 total accuracy

 2. Leaving this idea aside and my earlier speculation that equal frets
 might be an attempt to counter a lifting neck or to make a Bray
 harp-like sound (Capirola), we should not overlook the possibility that
 fretting in the England in the early 16th century WAS of equal size:
 the likely repertoire might not be so virtuosic as to demand the finest
 set (lowest 'action') to the lute (as Dowland and later required).

 Martyn


 --- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hindagno3ph...@yahoo.com   wrote:

   From: Anthony Hindagno3ph...@yahoo.com
   Subject: Re : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting [Google Art project] frets
   and bridge
   To: Martyn Hodgsonhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 18:02

 Thanks Martyn, I should have given you more time to think about this.
 At a glance you're right,  the fretting does look all the same
diameter!  Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and
 that's
all it is!) is : if the neck had

[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy

2011-02-09 Thread wolfgang wiehe 

There is a very instructive study about this picture:
Susan foister et al.: making  meaning / holbein´s ambassadors. National 
gallary company, london  yale university press. 2001.


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag 
von Jaroslaw Lipski
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 9. Februar 2011 23:02
An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy


Anthony,

I agree, it is possible that Holbein painted the ambassador's lute. 
However, there is some inconsistency in the way he treated details. Some 
of them are very accurate (like the music), some are not (the globe). On 
the other hand we don't know who was wrong Holbein or the drawing on the 
globe (they didn't have computers then and we don't know who was a 
cartographer). If he was able to depict proportions of string gauges, 
then why suddenly he lost all his patience while painting the bridge 
holes ? One can see that he used very small diameter brushes, so there 
wouldn't have been any problem, had he seen proper size holes on the 
lute. Maybe he was not a lute expert, but I think he just saw big holes 
on the instrument. What was the history of that instrument?. Maybe the 
owner changed stringing for lighter one, but it's difficult to imagine 
such a thick gut to fit the hole on 6c and to sound reasonably well. 
Hmmreally makes me wonder. All best

Jaroslaw


W dniu 2011-02-09 16:02, Anthony Hind pisze:
 Yes of course you are right about the painting not necessarily being 
 accurate. Although Val's arguments seem rather good to make us think 
 it was the ambassador's lute.

 Generally, I think lute makers use as small a hole as they can get 
 away with (at least they seem to do so now). Whenever I have changed 
 to a thicker string types (change of pitch diapason, for example) I 
 have had to have the hole widened. Lute makers don't seem to allow for 
 this. I suppose the smaller the hole, the stronger the bridge? 
 Although, the larger the number of courses and the bigger the basses, 
 the more important that would become, perhaps?

 So I suppose the thinness of the strings in relation to the holes 
 doesn't make much sense. You are right that at least on later Baroque 
 lutes th small size of the holes has been used to argue for loaded 
 strings, but possibly not on a lute like this. I wonder?
 Anthony






 - Message d'origine 
 De : Jarosław Lipskijaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 À : lute@cs.dartmouth.edulute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Envoyé le : Mer 9 février 2011, 12h 18min 24s
 Objet : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy

 I wonder to what extent we can rely on painter's accuracy...e.g.. big 
 bridge holes. As far as I can remember it was said that the evidence 
 suggests narrow BH which was to support the loaded strings theory. On 
 Holbein's painting we have enormous holes in comparison to the string 
 gauges on the lute. Would a painter bother about realistic hole 
 diameter ? The same with high action. No one could examine that lute 
 if it was playable, or was a professional instrument.or maybe it 
 was just a prop. On the other hand one of my lutes have an equal 
 fretting and is very easy to play.

 JL


 W dniu 2011-02-09 09:49, Martyn Hodgson pisze:
  Dear Anthony,

  Thanks for this. On further reflection some other aspects come 
 to mind:

  1. Most particularly, the difference between precision (the number of
  significant figures to which something is measured) and accuracy (how
  near the measurement is to the object being measured). For example a
  lute treble (of notional diameter, say, 0.49mm) may be given with a
  measurement of 4.8743215689mm, which is certainly very precise (to 1 in
  10,000millionth) but very inaccurate, or with a diameter of 0.5mm,
  which is much more accurate but not very precise.
  In the context of Holbein's wonderful painting, this may be translated
  as saying that he represented items with great precision but, perhaps,
  not always quite accurately. Thus, for example, the frets seem very
  finely executed but perhaps the graduation was not anything that
  bothered him (or his assistant). Other features which we find
  troubling/interesting (eg strings coming off the top of the bridge, nut
  rebate) may also be painted with great precision but maybe not with
  total accuracy

  2. Leaving this idea aside and my earlier speculation that equal frets
  might be an attempt to counter a lifting neck or to make a Bray
  harp-like sound (Capirola), we should not overlook the possibility that
  fretting in the England in the early 16th century WAS of equal size:
  the likely repertoire might not be so virtuosic as to demand the finest
  set (lowest 'action') to the lute (as Dowland and later 
 required).

  Martyn


  --- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hindagno3ph...@yahoo.com   wrote:

From

[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting [Google Art project] frets and bridge

2011-02-08 Thread Martyn Hodgson 

   My earlier response to Anthony:

   Anthony

   Sorry to delay answering - I will reply to this but if you're in a rush
   then send it off. I need to spend proper time studying the  picture.

   At a glance you're right,  the fretting does look all the same
   diameter!  Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and that's
   all it is!) is : if the neck had pulled up this might have been done so
   as to reduce the action by using a much thinner than normal upper
   frets. Alternatively, some early writer (Gerle?) mentions an effect of
   strings buzzing on frets (I think to cut through like a Bray harp) -
   could this lute be set up to play like this?

   Also the strings do indeed seem to come from the top of the bridge (or
   almost) - this is not really possible since in practice since simple
   statics will make the point half way between the top of the string hole
   and top of the bridge. However it could be that the maker has made the
   distance VERY small (looks a bit like this);  also if the tension is
   fairly low then static friction can hold the strings in a higher (or
   lowever) position if required. Do some tests yourself and see how easy
   or hard it is to make a string leave from the top of the bridge.

   rgds

   Martyn

   --- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote:

 From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com
 Subject: Tr : Re : [LUTE] [off list] Google Art project
 To: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp, Martyn Hodgson
 hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 14:35

   Dear Ed, Martyn, and All,
 As you lecture on this painting, and until now, I have only
   given  it an
   admirative, but casual look, may I formulate a few questions about  the
   significance of the stringing and the fretting, about which you may  be
   able to
   enlighten me?
   The fretting appears to be equal and not stepped (which is quite
   different from
   Dowland's indications), but is this significant of  typical stringing
   of the
   time?
   It could be that zooming in alters the perspective and gives too much
   importance to this detail which the painter might have considered
   insignificant; but it might also have been highly significant of the
   practise
   of the time (around 1533), but not necessarily of good  practise, as it
   was
   deemed by those knowledgeable in luting.
 The detail, as you say, is indeed extraordinary, which tends  to
   give the
   (possibly mistaken?) impression that the painting of the  lute might be
   almost
   as accurate as a photograph. Although, photographic  accuracy is not
   necessarily
   informative per se, as the lute could still  be painted from memory
   (doubtful?)
   or an example of just one man's  stringing, or even a lute strung up as
   a
   painter's prop and not for  playing; but in any case, certain details
   of
   instruments in the painting (musical or  otherwise) could have been
   focussed on
   (at the expense of others), tweaked or  altered, to conform with the
   complex
   primary symbolic message conveyed.
   For example, it seems to have been established that some of the
   instruments are
   misaligned, as possible symbols of impending chaos, or aligned to the
   date of
   Good Friday 1533.
   But cleaning of the picture has established that each one of the
   instruments
   to the right of the celestial globe - a cylindrical  shepherd's dial,
   two
   quadrants, a polyhedral sundial and a torquetum -  are all curiously
   misaligned
   for use in a northerly latitude. This is  unlikely to have been an
   oversight on
   the artist's part, since  one of his closest friends in London was the
   astronomer Nikolaus Kratzer  (...)
   The misaligned instruments are surely emblems of chaos, of the
   heavens  out of
   joint. The fact that they were intended to be read symbolically  is
   suggested by
   the generally encrypted nature of the whole painting and  confirmed by
   the lute
   with a broken string on the shelf below (...)
   [1]http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-1291
   477.html
   That the musical instruments are defective, in that one string of the
   lute is
   broken and one of the flutes are missing from the case of flutes  is
   evident;
   but might it not also be possible that Holbein expected the  would-be
   viewer
   (just as for the sundial)  to recognize that this  instrument was not
   ideally
   strung, according to the principles of the  time (i.e. if those
   principles were
   already the same as those at J.  Dowland's time, around 1610)?
   I note that the frets (fre t1 to fret 8), apart from being double,
   would appear
   to be almost equal in thickness.
   At  the same time, it would appear that the strings are set as high as
   possible in relation to the bridge-holes. Could this raised string
   height have
   been used to compensate  for  the resulting

[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting [Google Art project] frets and bridge

2011-02-08 Thread Anthony Hind 


Thanks Martyn, I should have given you more time to think about this.

At a glance you're right,  the fretting does look all the same
   diameter!  Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and that's
   all it is!) is : if the neck had pulled up this might have been done so
   as to reduce the action by using a much thinner than normal upper
   frets.

Right, if we use equal frets to compensate for a raised kneck, then we would 
use 
equal but thin frets? Would you think this is the case, here? 

Dowland suggests Fret 1 and 2: shoudl have the value of the countertenor, ie 
4th course?
Of course it is hard to evaluate from a painting and with zoom, and also the 
frets are double, but the thickness of the top fret (and all the others) looks 
about equivalent to the fourth string.
However, I think it might be a little silly to be too literal in measures from 
a 
painting.

The thing which made me feel that the lute might be deliberately chosen with a 
problematic setting (either kneck pulled up, or badly fretted) is the way the 
other instruments are said to be misaligned, according to the articles I have 
glanced over; but I agree with Lex that it is hard to say anything for sure. 

It is rather that I read several lutenists mentioning the thin strings, as 
though we could be sure this is good practise of the time. 


regards
Anthony




   My earlier response to Anthony:

   Anthony

   Sorry to delay answering - I will reply to this but if you're in a rush
   then send it off. I need to spend proper time studying the  picture.

   At a glance you're right,  the fretting does look all the same
   diameter!  Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and that's
   all it is!) is : if the neck had pulled up this might have been done so
   as to reduce the action by using a much thinner than normal upper
   frets. Alternatively, some early writer (Gerle?) mentions an effect of
   strings buzzing on frets (I think to cut through like a Bray harp) -
   could this lute be set up to play like this?

   Also the strings do indeed seem to come from the top of the bridge (or
   almost) - this is not really possible since in practice since simple
   statics will make the point half way between the top of the string hole
   and top of the bridge. However it could be that the maker has made the
   distance VERY small (looks a bit like this);  also if the tension is
   fairly low then static friction can hold the strings in a higher (or
   lowever) position if required. Do some tests yourself and see how easy
   or hard it is to make a string leave from the top of the bridge.

   rgds

   Martyn

   --- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote:

 From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com
 Subject: Tr : Re : [LUTE] [off list] Google Art project
 To: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp, Martyn Hodgson
 hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 14:35

   Dear Ed, Martyn, and All,
 As you lecture on this painting, and until now, I have only
   given  it an
   admirative, but casual look, may I formulate a few questions about  the
   significance of the stringing and the fretting, about which you may  be
   able to
   enlighten me?
   The fretting appears to be equal and not stepped (which is quite
   different from
   Dowland's indications), but is this significant of  typical stringing
   of the
   time?
   It could be that zooming in alters the perspective and gives too much
   importance to this detail which the painter might have considered
   insignificant; but it might also have been highly significant of the
   practise
   of the time (around 1533), but not necessarily of good  practise, as it
   was
   deemed by those knowledgeable in luting.
 The detail, as you say, is indeed extraordinary, which tends  to
   give the
   (possibly mistaken?) impression that the painting of the  lute might be
   almost
   as accurate as a photograph. Although, photographic  accuracy is not
   necessarily
   informative per se, as the lute could still  be painted from memory
   (doubtful?)
   or an example of just one man's  stringing, or even a lute strung up as
   a
   painter's prop and not for  playing; but in any case, certain details
   of
   instruments in the painting (musical or  otherwise) could have been
   focussed on
   (at the expense of others), tweaked or  altered, to conform with the
   complex
   primary symbolic message conveyed.
   For example, it seems to have been established that some of the
   instruments are
   misaligned, as possible symbols of impending chaos, or aligned to the
   date of
   Good Friday 1533.
   But cleaning of the picture has established that each one of the
   instruments
   to the right of the celestial globe - a cylindrical  shepherd's dial,
   two
   quadrants, a polyhedral sundial and a torquetum -  are all curiously
   misaligned
   for use in a northerly latitude. This is