[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
Howard, On Mon, 3/17/14, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: Chris, it took you three and a half hours to join battle this time. You must be slowing in your old age. No, just growing tired of going around in circles. The fact is that we can only guess at what the historical attitude was, and risk being simple-minded if we assume there was only one historical attitude. I had assumed your authoritatively stated position had some basis in empirical evidence. The second cellist doesn’t sit around worrying about whether he’ll be heard separately from the other two cellists, and if he plays so as draw attention to himself, the conductor won’t ask him back. This analogy doesn't work. The three cellists are doubling - actually, tripling - an identical part for volume, precisely so that it can be heard in balance with the rest of the group. (Or should the celli make it their goal to blend their line into the mix so that it can't be heard separately within the ensemble as you suggest the lute should do?) Although the lute's continuo realization is generated from the same bass line the celli are playing, it is really a separate entity and not directly comparable. Only in the case of an obligato part specifically written for a section of multiple lutes playing identical notes would one be able to say that no particular lute should stand out from the others. (In this hypothetical case, would you suggest that the lute section should blend into the mix as well?) Of course one is accompanying and not soloing! But worrying that you're hogging the spotlight is a baseless fear. No one in the history of humanity has ever said, Sure, the lute provided solid harmonic support, but I couldn't hear the rest of the group because it was just so loud! When you play FFF on a lute, it MIGHT be equal to a mezzo forte on even a baroque string instrument. (Playing that loud for long stretches at a time is not sustainable for the player or the instrument anyway, but it can be used for important accents.) If one plays in the F-FF range, it is roughly equivalent to the volume level of a harpsichord. What about having parity with the keyboard is there to fear? I guess it's probably a different matter if one comes unprepared, ready to chalk it up to practice time... On the contrary, Weiss writes, I have adapted one of my instruments for accompaniment in the orchestra and church. It has the size, length, power and resonance of the veritable theorbo and has the same effect, only the tuning is different... [The archlute and theorbo] are ordinarily played with the nails and produce in close proximity a coarse, harsh sound.” Weiss was a star, the most highly-paid musician in the star-studded Dresden establishment, and he would have been in a featured position, probably doing a lot of sole continuo in the Dresden orchestra. Weiss was speaking about an established practice as done by others. Note that he adapted one of his instruments so that he could get in the large ensemble game already being played by his contemporary theorbo and archlute players using nails. Or you’ve never played an orchestra gig with clueless modern cellists and electronic keyboards. I have worked in similar situations many times. Beginning with a strange notion that I'm paid for my contribution to be heard (just like all the other instruments) make an effort to be heard. I've listened to the recordings and - lo and behold! thar's a theorbo a-playin' in that thar professional modern orchestry!. I've been asked back, so they must not have thought I overstepped my bounds too much. They heard me pretty distinctly, I’m sure, but there were times when the group would sound better if I weren’t heard... If you really practice what you preach that it doesn't matter at all what you play, I'm sure that's very true. ;-) Chris -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
On Mar 18, 2014, at 6:06 AM, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: But worrying that you're hogging the spotlight is a baseless fear. . . . . . . What about having parity with the keyboard is there to fear? Were not discussing fear of hogging the spotlight or of achieving parity with the keyboard (which sounds like agitation for the political rights of lutes: WHAT DO WE WANT? KEYBOARD PARITY! WHEN DO WE WANT IT? NOW!!!). At least, Im not. I'm discussing whether you should worry about whether someone can pick your sound out of an orchestra, about which I think Ive said enough. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
jiust play in the concertino, not in the grosso... Le Dimanche 16 mars 2014 19h37, Christopher Stetson christophertstet...@gmail.com a ecrit : @trj: A fist bump. On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 12:36 PM, [1][1]theoj89...@aol.com wrote: In the mid '80s, I was hired to play renaissance lute at some company's holiday party, and I was instructed to show up in costume (I had recently done a Twelfth Night in costume - and yes, there were tights). I arrived at the address and entered a large crowded party room with a disc jockey, sound system above 100 decibels pounding away the cheesiest disco, black lights, mirror ball; the works. I found the organizer and told her that there must have been some misunderstanding. She told the, no - she wanted me to dance around the dance floor with my lute and pretend like I was playing (my mind was quickly filled with images of a drunken reveler smashing into my lute and scattering splinters of wood across the parquet dance floor). Instead, I quietly packed up and left through the backdoor. Unexpectedly and to my pleasant surprise, I received my check for the entire agreed amount a week later. trj -Original Message- From: Edward Chrysogonus Yong [2][2]edward.y...@gmail.com To: Lute List List [3][3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sun, Mar 16, 2014 7:54 am Subject: [LUTE] Ornamental Lutes dear collective wisdom, so i was asked to play continuo for a HACURndel Concerto Grosso and spent some time working it out. at the first rehearsal i discover that the continuo line is also being played by 3 violoncelli, an electronic harpsichord, and a double bass all 'playing out'. all of these are modern instruments, played aggressively by players more accustomed to symphonic music. full chords on my large archlute and twiddling nonstop means i am audible to the celli and to the conductor. the tutti violins on the other side of the semicircle have said they can't really hear me, so i wonder if i'd even be heard by the audience. i'm sure other lute players have done gigs like this, so what does one do in situations where one's lute seems largely ornamental? do i just make sure i look pretty? Edward II?III? I.IIuI-oIII?I 1/2I^1I-oII 1/2 II+-III'II?I 1/4IuI-I?I 1/2 IuI-o IuI-I|II 1/2I?I IuI 1/4IuI IuIII 1/4II,I.. HA| litterA| electronicA| ab iPhono missA| sunt. aeCUReaaeuaeP:c, 1/4eae-oe-aaa 3/4iPhonea This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. To get on or off this list see list information at [4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. mailto:[5]theoj89...@aol.com 2. mailto:[6]edward.y...@gmail.com 3. mailto:[7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:theoj89...@aol.com 2. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:theoj89...@aol.com 6. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com 7. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
One caveat, and one caveat only, to add to Howard Posner's excellent perspective- Don't be playing at any time when all the other continuo players have stopped (or haven't started). Sometimes it's infinitely worse for the theorbo to be heard! Dan On 3/17/2014 7:12 AM, howard posner wrote: On Mar 16, 2014, at 4:51 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong edward.y...@gmail.com wrote: so i was asked to play continuo for a Händel Concerto Grosso and spent some time working it out. at the first rehearsal i discover that the continuo line is also being played by 3 violoncelli, an electronic harpsichord, and a double bass all 'playing out'. all of these are modern instruments, played aggressively by players more accustomed to symphonic music. full chords on my large archlute and twiddling nonstop means i am audible to the celli and to the conductor. the tutti violins on the other side of the semicircle have said they can't really hear me, so i wonder if i'd even be heard by the audience. i'm sure other lute players have done gigs like this, so what does one do in situations where one's lute seems largely ornamental? do i just make sure i look pretty? You play continuo, don’t worry about it, and relax knowing there isn’t any pressure on you to carry the part. It doesn’t matter whether the violinists think they can hear you. If you were playing with a big French harpsichord and baroque instruments, they might say the same, most of the time. And I’ll bet they can’t distinguish the sound of one of those cellos from the other two, and none of those cellists is writing to the cello list about his predicament. About once a year on this list I have occasion to remind someone that playing continuo isn’t like playing a lute concerto. It isn’t necessarily about being heard as a distinct, identifiable sound. You’re part of the mix. In a big group you’re there to make the overall sound fuller, or mellower, or brighter, or whatever. The group should sound better when you’re playing and worse when you’re not, even if it isn’t obvious why. You’ve done your job when the listeners like the sound, not when someone in the third row says, “really nice voice-leading on that last six-four chord by the guy playing that weird giant mandolin.” And if the sound is really so thick that it doesn’t matter at all what you play, just do your best, enjoy the show and chalk it up to practice time. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
On the few (well recorded) concerts I've seen, (always on TV), the theorbo has contributed highly with its characteristic bass drone (reminding me of a didgeridoo for some reason) to the events. But these were smaller ensembles, where the instrument could really come to its full potential. And they were also filmed and recorded proffessionally. Is visual presence without being heard and just being an ornament in a huge orchestra ok...I guess...but if not recorded and tweeked, probably few in the audience (except perhaps the first few rows) could enjoy its sound. But, the musicians next to the theorbo would be able to enjoy its gutsy basses, and perhaps because of that play better. And the orchestra being an organism of sorts, the theorbo could perhaps act as a uniting entity in the bass register, contributing to the orchestral performance as a whole, theorbist playing well of course ;) G. - Original Message - From: Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com; Lute List List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 5:25 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes One caveat, and one caveat only, to add to Howard Posner's excellent perspective- Don't be playing at any time when all the other continuo players have stopped (or haven't started). Sometimes it's infinitely worse for the theorbo to be heard! Dan On 3/17/2014 7:12 AM, howard posner wrote: On Mar 16, 2014, at 4:51 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong edward.y...@gmail.com wrote: so i was asked to play continuo for a Händel Concerto Grosso and spent some time working it out. at the first rehearsal i discover that the continuo line is also being played by 3 violoncelli, an electronic harpsichord, and a double bass all 'playing out'. all of these are modern instruments, played aggressively by players more accustomed to symphonic music. full chords on my large archlute and twiddling nonstop means i am audible to the celli and to the conductor. the tutti violins on the other side of the semicircle have said they can't really hear me, so i wonder if i'd even be heard by the audience. i'm sure other lute players have done gigs like this, so what does one do in situations where one's lute seems largely ornamental? do i just make sure i look pretty? You play continuo, don’t worry about it, and relax knowing there isn’t any pressure on you to carry the part. It doesn’t matter whether the violinists think they can hear you. If you were playing with a big French harpsichord and baroque instruments, they might say the same, most of the time. And I’ll bet they can’t distinguish the sound of one of those cellos from the other two, and none of those cellists is writing to the cello list about his predicament. About once a year on this list I have occasion to remind someone that playing continuo isn’t like playing a lute concerto. It isn’t necessarily about being heard as a distinct, identifiable sound. You’re part of the mix. In a big group you’re there to make the overall sound fuller, or mellower, or brighter, or whatever. The group should sound better when you’re playing and worse when you’re not, even if it isn’t obvious why. You’ve done your job when the listeners like the sound, not when someone in the third row says, “really nice voice-leading on that last six-four chord by the guy playing that weird giant mandolin.” And if the sound is really so thick that it doesn’t matter at all what you play, just do your best, enjoy the show and chalk it up to practice time. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4336 / Virus Database: 3722/7204 - Release Date: 03/17/14
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
Howard, On Mon, 3/17/14, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: You play continuo, don’t worry about it, and relax knowing there isn’t any pressure on you to carry the part... About once a year on this list I have occasion to remind someone that playing continuo isn’t like playing a lute concerto. It isn’t necessarily about being heard as a distinct, identifiable sound. You’re part of the mix. ...it doesn’t matter at all what you play, just do your best, enjoy the show and chalk it up to practice time. Just like closing your eyes, clicking your heels together and repeating, there's no place like home... there's no place like home... won't magically transport you someplace warm and safe, repeatedly offering the same conjecture about the lute's role in an ensemble won't make it true. There is no historical evidence implying that plucked continuo players didn't want or expect to be heard even in large groups. On the contrary, Weiss writes, I have adapted one of my instruments for accompaniment in the orchestra and church. It has the size, length, power and resonance of the veritable theorbo and has the same effect, only the tuning is different... [The archlute and theorbo] are ordinarily played with the nails and produce in close proximity a coarse, harsh sound. Period performers didn't select powerful, resonant instruments which they then played with nails, producing an intentionally penetrating tone color, only to become a subordinate part of the mix. Certainly they were heard as a distinct, identifiable sound. Something is deeply flawed with an ideology that allows one to actually feel comfortable writing, it doesn't matter at all what you play... chalk it up to practice time in a serious musical discussion. Personally, I think the composite sound line of reasoning is just a cop-out for players unwilling to explore the resources of the instrument beyond the tender touch that sounds so dreamily ethereal and wistfully antiquated when practicing alone in the still privacy of a small room. If, however, one plays close to the bridge - as written and iconographic sources very explicitly demonstrate - the tone will project. This takes some work, as it's not simply a matter of clawing at the strings forcefully. With practice, it is possible to create a tone that is both robust and distinct even in large ensembles. Chris -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
Don't discount, too, the usefulness of a table. It _does_ help in the forward projection and, moreover, in the ringing of the basses. When a string vibrates, the lute absorbs that vibration in a contrary motion. No matter how you pluck the string it will want to vibrate in whatever direction _it_ wants. Naturally, it will dissipate upwards and downwards where there are no flat surfaces/soundboards (or audience besides the player). If we eliminate that up-down possibility by setting the corner of the lute on a table we will eliminate one axis of vibratory dissipation. Of course setting it on the endpin w/ the strings pointing straight up won't work but as the strings approach horizontal to the ground that up-down vibration axis disappears. The lute can only vibrate toward the audience and back. Even for mult-headed lutes (read: top heavy), as long as the body is moving only forward/backward the effect has to be there. As an experiment I played half a solo concert on a table and and the second half off and took note of the comments. It was noticable. There's absolutely no reason this couldn't be transferable to a continuo theorbo situation. I've heard speculation about what kind of table would sound the best but I don't believe that enters significantly into the equation though I can't discount it entirely (I'm open to doing the experiment again on a solid post vs. a custom-built resonant table). It's about eliminating unuseful vibration dissipation and redirecting it toward your audience. Sean On Mar 17, 2014, at 10:49 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Howard, On Mon, 3/17/14, howard posner [1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: You play continuo, dont worry about it, and relax knowing there isnt any pressure on you to carry the part... About once a year on this list I have occasion to remind someone that playing continuo isnt like playing a lute concerto. It isnt necessarily about being heard as a distinct, identifiable sound. Youre part of the mix. ...it doesnt matter at all what you play, just do your best, enjoy the show and chalk it up to practice time. Just like closing your eyes, clicking your heels together and repeating, there's no place like home... there's no place like home... won't magically transport you someplace warm and safe, repeatedly offering the same conjecture about the lute's role in an ensemble won't make it true. There is no historical evidence implying that plucked continuo players didn't want or expect to be heard even in large groups. On the contrary, Weiss writes, I have adapted one of my instruments for accompaniment in the orchestra and church. It has the size, length, power and resonance of the veritable theorbo and has the same effect, only the tuning is different... [The archlute and theorbo] are ordinarily played with the nails and produce in close proximity a coarse, harsh sound. Period performers didn't select powerful, resonant instruments which they then played with nails, producing an intentionally penetrating tone color, only to become a subordinate part of the mix. Certainly they were heard as a distinct, identifiable sound. Something is deeply flawed with an ideology that allows one to actually feel comfortable writing, it doesn't matter at all what you play... chalk it up to practice time in a serious musical discussion. Personally, I think the composite sound line of reasoning is just a cop-out for players unwilling to explore the resources of the instrument beyond the tender touch that sounds so dreamily ethereal and wistfully antiquated when practicing alone in the still privacy of a small room. If, however, one plays close to the bridge - as written and iconographic sources very explicitly demonstrate - the tone will project. This takes some work, as it's not simply a matter of clawing at the strings forcefully. With practice, it is possible to create a tone that is both robust and distinct even in large ensembles. Chris -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
Chris, it took you three and a half hours to join battle this time. You must be slowing in your old age. On Mar 17, 2014, at 10:49 AM, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: There is no historical evidence implying that plucked continuo players didn't want or expect to be heard even in large groups. I wasnt talking in the past tense. The question was about now, in an ensemble with an electronic keyboard and three modern cellos played by cellists with no clue about period practice. The fact is that we can only guess at what the historical attitude was, and risk being simple-minded if we assume there was only one historical attitude. In any event, the question isnt whether the lute is heard, but how it is heard. The second cellist doesnt sit around worrying about whether hell be heard separately from the other two cellists, and if he plays so as draw attention to himself, the conductor wont ask him back. An ensemble is an ensemble, and you have to think about the ensemble sound, not your own. On the contrary, Weiss writes, I have adapted one of my instruments for accompaniment in the orchestra and church. It has the size, length, power and resonance of the veritable theorbo and has the same effect, only the tuning is different... [The archlute and theorbo] are ordinarily played with the nails and produce in close proximity a coarse, harsh sound. Period performers didn't select powerful, resonant instruments which they then played with nails, producing an intentionally penetrating tone color, only to become a subordinate part of the mix. Its precisely the sort of sound Id want if I wanted to blend with a harpsichord. It might also be the sort of sound Id want if I were the sole continuo player, in which case Id be more concerned about whether my sound was distinct. Weiss was a star, the most highly-paid musician in the star-studded Dresden establishment, and he would have been in a featured position, probably doing a lot of sole continuo in the Dresden orchestra. Certainly they were heard as a distinct, identifiable sound. 1. Beware of certainty. 2. So if four theorbos are playing the continuo line, each of them should be heard as a distinct, identifiable sound? Something is deeply flawed with an ideology ?!?!?!?!? that allows one to actually feel comfortable writing, it doesn't matter at all what you play... chalk it up to practice time in a serious musical discussion. Serious musical discussion??? You havent been paying attention. Or youve never played an orchestra gig with clueless modern cellists and electronic keyboards. I have; and and trust me, were not having a serious musical discussion. BTW, the last time I did it, I was playing my Clive Titmuss Strato-baroque guitar. They heard me pretty distinctly, Im sure, but there were times when the group would sound better if I werent heard: for example, the only way to get a heirarchy of strong and weak beats was to play out on the strong beats and back off (or lay out) on the weak ones, because nobody else knew what a weak beat is. If what the audience heard was GUITAR/not guitar/GUITAR/not guitar instead of STRONG/weaK/STRONG/weak, I was just a distraction. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
Every time I'm in this position (and it happens remarkably often, even when playing amplified electric bass!) I am minded of Peter Schikele's introductory speech for PDQ Bach's Sinfonia Concertante S. 98.6 for Lute, Balalaika, Ocarina, Bagpipes, Left-Handed Sewer Flute, Double-Reed Slide Music Stand, and Strings, where he notes that the lute is such a quiet instrument that it is very hard to hear it if another instrument is in the room, even if the other instrument is not being played. He ends by noting that in these days, the visual aspect of music is often neglected.. It's a lovely lutea| think of it while you're listening to the bagpipes. On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong [1]edward.y...@gmail.com wrote: dear collective wisdom, so i was asked to play continuo for a HACURndel Concerto Grosso and spent some time working it out. at the first rehearsal i discover that the continuo line is also being played by 3 violoncelli, an electronic harpsichord, and a double bass all 'playing out'. all of these are modern instruments, played aggressively by players more accustomed to symphonic music. full chords on my large archlute and twiddling nonstop means i am audible to the celli and to the conductor. the tutti violins on the other side of the semicircle have said they can't really hear me, so i wonder if i'd even be heard by the audience. i'm sure other lute players have done gigs like this, so what does one do in situations where one's lute seems largely ornamental? do i just make sure i look pretty? Edward II?III? I.IIuI-oIII?I 1/2I^1I-oII 1/2 II+-III'II?I 1/4IuI-I?I 1/2 IuI-o IuI-I|II 1/2I?I IuI 1/4IuI IuIII 1/4II,I.. HA| litterA| electronicA| ab iPhono missA| sunt. aeCUReaaeuaeP:c, 1/4eae-oe-aaa 3/4iPhonea This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
Sean, You're right - lutes were often supported by a table. This may have even been so in a large ensemble. Strings sat at long tables sitting across from one another rather in a line facing the audience. Lutes may have as well. It is more common in iconography, however, to see the lute/theorbo player standing, using a strap, to the rear of the group. This is really excellent since the sound of the instrument will literally project above the other instruments. In addition to being more easily heard, it is space saving as the neck can project out over the heads of the other players. (Just tell them to be careful when getting up at the end of the show!) It was not unusual for the plucker to read from sheet music on the keyboard, looking over the player's shoulder. The few of times I've stood for a performance, I've received great feedback regarding the projection of the theorbo. In truth, I have actually found it difficult to convince directors to allow me to stand. It apparently breaks some unspoken modern concert convention that only soloists or featured performers may stand (other than those who must do so by necessity, such as bassists or percussionists). Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Mon, 3/17/14, Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, March 17, 2014, 2:22 PM Don't discount, too, the usefulness of a table. It _does_ help in the forward projection and, moreover, in the ringing of the basses. When a string vibrates, the lute absorbs that vibration in a contrary motion. No matter how you pluck the string it will want to vibrate in whatever direction _it_ wants. Naturally, it will dissipate upwards and downwards where there are no flat surfaces/soundboards (or audience besides the player). If we eliminate that up-down possibility by setting the corner of the lute on a table we will eliminate one axis of vibratory dissipation. Of course setting it on the endpin w/ the strings pointing straight up won't work but as the strings approach horizontal to the ground that up-down vibration axis disappears. The lute can only vibrate toward the audience and back. Even for mult-headed lutes (read: top heavy), as long as the body is moving only forward/backward the effect has to be there. As an experiment I played half a solo concert on a table and and the second half off and took note of the comments. It was noticable. There's absolutely no reason this couldn't be transferable to a continuo theorbo situation. I've heard speculation about what kind of table would sound the best but I don't believe that enters significantly into the equation though I can't discount it entirely (I'm open to doing the experiment again on a solid post vs. a custom-built resonant table). It's about eliminating unuseful vibration dissipation and redirecting it toward your audience. Sean On Mar 17, 2014, at 10:49 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Howard, On Mon, 3/17/14, howard posner [1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: You play continuo, dont worry about it, and relax knowing there isnt any pressure on you to carry the part... About once a year on this list I have occasion to remind someone that playing continuo isnt like playing a lute concerto. It isnt necessarily about being heard as a distinct, identifiable sound. Youre part of the mix. ...it doesnt matter at all what you play, just do your best, enjoy the show and chalk it up to practice time. Just like closing your eyes, clicking your heels together and repeating, there's no place like home... there's no place like home... won't magically transport you someplace warm and safe, repeatedly offering the same conjecture about the lute's role in an ensemble won't make it true. There is no historical evidence implying that plucked continuo players didn't want or expect to be heard even in large groups. On the contrary, Weiss writes, I have adapted one of my instruments for accompaniment in the orchestra and church. It has the size, length, power and resonance of the veritable theorbo and has the same effect, only the tuning is different... [The archlute and theorbo] are ordinarily played with the nails and produce in close proximity a coarse, harsh sound. Period performers didn't select powerful, resonant instruments which they then played with nails, producing an intentionally penetrating tone color, only to become a subordinate part of the mix. Certainly they were heard as a distinct, identifiable
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
Good point, Chris. Standing. Yep, I love it. Aside from the projection that you mentioned, it has helped my breathing and posture (legs, back, neck, head), which, in turn, helped my hand position, relaxation, confidence and, best of all for all involved, counting. When I use the same strap to sit I can take all of that with me to the chair and keep very nicely and symmetrically balanced on a butt and two feet. All of that helps my projection. Of course, in my humble imagination. Sean ps Best of both worlds here: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/nov98/month.htm On Mar 17, 2014, at 4:27 PM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Sean, You're right - lutes were often supported by a table. This may have even been so in a large ensemble. Strings sat at long tables sitting across from one another rather in a line facing the audience. Lutes may have as well. It is more common in iconography, however, to see the lute/theorbo player standing, using a strap, to the rear of the group. This is really excellent since the sound of the instrument will literally project above the other instruments. In addition to being more easily heard, it is space saving as the neck can project out over the heads of the other players. (Just tell them to be careful when getting up at the end of the show!) It was not unusual for the plucker to read from sheet music on the keyboard, looking over the player's shoulder. The few of times I've stood for a performance, I've received great feedback regarding the projection of the theorbo. In truth, I have actually found it difficult to convince directors to allow me to stand. It apparently breaks some unspoken modern concert convention that only soloists or featured performers may stand (other than those who must do so by necessity, such as bassists or percussionists). Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Mon, 3/17/14, Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, March 17, 2014, 2:22 PM Don't discount, too, the usefulness of a table. It _does_ help in the forward projection and, moreover, in the ringing of the basses. When a string vibrates, the lute absorbs that vibration in a contrary motion. No matter how you pluck the string it will want to vibrate in whatever direction _it_ wants. Naturally, it will dissipate upwards and downwards where there are no flat surfaces/soundboards (or audience besides the player). If we eliminate that up-down possibility by setting the corner of the lute on a table we will eliminate one axis of vibratory dissipation. Of course setting it on the endpin w/ the strings pointing straight up won't work but as the strings approach horizontal to the ground that up-down vibration axis disappears. The lute can only vibrate toward the audience and back. Even for mult-headed lutes (read: top heavy), as long as the body is moving only forward/backward the effect has to be there. As an experiment I played half a solo concert on a table and and the second half off and took note of the comments. It was noticable. There's absolutely no reason this couldn't be transferable to a continuo theorbo situation. I've heard speculation about what kind of table would sound the best but I don't believe that enters significantly into the equation though I can't discount it entirely (I'm open to doing the experiment again on a solid post vs. a custom-built resonant table). It's about eliminating unuseful vibration dissipation and redirecting it toward your audience. Sean On Mar 17, 2014, at 10:49 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Howard, On Mon, 3/17/14, howard posner [1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: You play continuo, dont worry about it, and relax knowing there isnt any pressure on you to carry the part... About once a year on this list I have occasion to remind someone that playing continuo isnt like playing a lute concerto. It isnt necessarily about being heard as a distinct, identifiable sound. Youre part of the mix. ...it doesnt matter at all what you play, just do your best, enjoy the show and chalk it up to practice time. Just like closing your eyes, clicking your heels together and repeating, there's no place like home... there's no place like home... won't magically transport you someplace warm and safe, repeatedly offering the same conjecture about the lute's role in an ensemble won't make it true. There is no historical evidence implying that plucked continuo players didn't want or expect to be heard even in large groups. On the contrary, Weiss writes, I have adapted one of my instruments for accompaniment in the orchestra and church. It has the size, length, power
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
I agree that playing the lute standing up is a real game changer and also that modern concert conventions are the thing that stop the game being changed All the best Mark On Mar 18, 2014, at 12:27 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Sean, You're right - lutes were often supported by a table. This may have even been so in a large ensemble. Strings sat at long tables sitting across from one another rather in a line facing the audience. Lutes may have as well. It is more common in iconography, however, to see the lute/theorbo player standing, using a strap, to the rear of the group. This is really excellent since the sound of the instrument will literally project above the other instruments. In addition to being more easily heard, it is space saving as the neck can project out over the heads of the other players. (Just tell them to be careful when getting up at the end of the show!) It was not unusual for the plucker to read from sheet music on the keyboard, looking over the player's shoulder. The few of times I've stood for a performance, I've received great feedback regarding the projection of the theorbo. In truth, I have actually found it difficult to convince directors to allow me to stand. It apparently breaks some unspoken modern concert convention that only soloists or featured performers may stand (other than those who must do so by necessity, such as bassists or percussionists). Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Mon, 3/17/14, Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, March 17, 2014, 2:22 PM Don't discount, too, the usefulness of a table. It _does_ help in the forward projection and, moreover, in the ringing of the basses. When a string vibrates, the lute absorbs that vibration in a contrary motion. No matter how you pluck the string it will want to vibrate in whatever direction _it_ wants. Naturally, it will dissipate upwards and downwards where there are no flat surfaces/soundboards (or audience besides the player). If we eliminate that up-down possibility by setting the corner of the lute on a table we will eliminate one axis of vibratory dissipation. Of course setting it on the endpin w/ the strings pointing straight up won't work but as the strings approach horizontal to the ground that up-down vibration axis disappears. The lute can only vibrate toward the audience and back. Even for mult-headed lutes (read: top heavy), as long as the body is moving only forward/backward the effect has to be there. As an experiment I played half a solo concert on a table and and the second half off and took note of the comments. It was noticable. There's absolutely no reason this couldn't be transferable to a continuo theorbo situation. I've heard speculation about what kind of table would sound the best but I don't believe that enters significantly into the equation though I can't discount it entirely (I'm open to doing the experiment again on a solid post vs. a custom-built resonant table). It's about eliminating unuseful vibration dissipation and redirecting it toward your audience. Sean On Mar 17, 2014, at 10:49 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Howard, On Mon, 3/17/14, howard posner [1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: You play continuo, dont worry about it, and relax knowing there isnt any pressure on you to carry the part... About once a year on this list I have occasion to remind someone that playing continuo isnt like playing a lute concerto. It isnt necessarily about being heard as a distinct, identifiable sound. Youre part of the mix. ...it doesnt matter at all what you play, just do your best, enjoy the show and chalk it up to practice time. Just like closing your eyes, clicking your heels together and repeating, there's no place like home... there's no place like home... won't magically transport you someplace warm and safe, repeatedly offering the same conjecture about the lute's role in an ensemble won't make it true. There is no historical evidence implying that plucked continuo players didn't want or expect to be heard even in large groups. On the contrary, Weiss writes, I have adapted one of my instruments for accompaniment in the orchestra and church. It has the size, length, power and resonance of the veritable theorbo and has the same effect, only the tuning is different... [The archlute and theorbo] are ordinarily played with the nails and produce in close proximity a coarse, harsh sound. Period
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
On 2014-03-17, 7:47 PM, Sean Smith wrote: Standing. Yep, I love it. Aside from the projection that you mentioned, it has helped my breathing and posture (legs, back, neck, head), which, in turn, helped my hand position, relaxation, confidence and, best of all for all involved, counting. At the concert by the Venice Baroque Orchestra I attended in Santa Barbara a few weeks ago, they all played standing up for the whole concert, except for the harpsichordist, lutenist, cellos, and violone. Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
As Peter Schickle (PDQ Bach) says in the introduction to his duet for lute and bagpipe, When the bagpipe plays, you won't be able to hear the lute. But the lute is pleasant to look at. So, when the bagpipe plays, enjoy the lute. Gary On 2014-03-16 04:51, Edward Chrysogonus Yong wrote: dear collective wisdom, so i was asked to play continuo for a Händel Concerto Grosso and spent some time working it out. at the first rehearsal i discover that the continuo line is also being played by 3 violoncelli, an electronic harpsichord, and a double bass all 'playing out'. all of these are modern instruments, played aggressively by players more accustomed to symphonic music. full chords on my large archlute and twiddling nonstop means i am audible to the celli and to the conductor. the tutti violins on the other side of the semicircle have said they can't really hear me, so i wonder if i'd even be heard by the audience. i'm sure other lute players have done gigs like this, so what does one do in situations where one's lute seems largely ornamental? do i just make sure i look pretty? Edward τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
The projection topos comes to mind. Some lute players believe that - not minding the cello group, 12 trombones, electric harpsichord, double bass etc. , not to mention the rest of the Mahler orchestra - they can project their sound to some pretty girls in the 185th row ;-) B Am 16.03.2014 12:51, schrieb Edward Chrysogonus Yong: dear collective wisdom, so i was asked to play continuo for a Händel Concerto Grosso and spent some time working it out. at the first rehearsal i discover that the continuo line is also being played by 3 violoncelli, an electronic harpsichord, and a double bass all 'playing out'. all of these are modern instruments, played aggressively by players more accustomed to symphonic music. full chords on my large archlute and twiddling nonstop means i am audible to the celli and to the conductor. the tutti violins on the other side of the semicircle have said they can't really hear me, so i wonder if i'd even be heard by the audience. i'm sure other lute players have done gigs like this, so what does one do in situations where one's lute seems largely ornamental? do i just make sure i look pretty? Edward τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
looking pretty and busy doesn't sound the worst idea :-) this might impress the pretty girls in the 185th row more than the imagination of the magical sound haunting them. Thomas Am 16.03.2014 14:08, schrieb Bernd Haegemann: The projection topos comes to mind. Some lute players believe that - not minding the cello group, 12 trombones, electric harpsichord, double bass etc. , not to mention the rest of the Mahler orchestra - they can project their sound to some pretty girls in the 185th row ;-) B Am 16.03.2014 12:51, schrieb Edward Chrysogonus Yong: dear collective wisdom, so i was asked to play continuo for a Händel Concerto Grosso and spent some time working it out. at the first rehearsal i discover that the continuo line is also being played by 3 violoncelli, an electronic harpsichord, and a double bass all 'playing out'. all of these are modern instruments, played aggressively by players more accustomed to symphonic music. full chords on my large archlute and twiddling nonstop means i am audible to the celli and to the conductor. the tutti violins on the other side of the semicircle have said they can't really hear me, so i wonder if i'd even be heard by the audience. i'm sure other lute players have done gigs like this, so what does one do in situations where one's lute seems largely ornamental? do i just make sure i look pretty? Edward τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Thomas Schall, Dörflistrasse 2, 6078 Lungern, 041 678 00 79 --- Diese E-Mail ist frei von Viren und Malware, denn der avast! Antivirus Schutz ist aktiv. http://www.avast.com
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
The closest I've come to this situation was being part of a Medieval tableau for the inaugural ball of Massachusetts Gov. Michael Dukakis in 1975. A I was told not to actually play because Lionel Hampton was providing the real entertainment and they didn't want me to interfere with him(). A It was an interesting night. A I did get paid. Best to all, and keep playing (or not...), Chris. On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Thomas Schall [1]lauten...@lautenist.de wrote: looking pretty and busy doesn't sound the worst idea :-) this might impress the pretty girls in the 185th row more than the imagination of the magical sound haunting them. Thomas Am 16.03.2014 14:08, schrieb Bernd Haegemann: The projection topos comes to mind. Some lute players believe that - not minding the cello group, 12 trombones, electric harpsichord, double bass etc. , not to mention the rest of the Mahler orchestra - they can project their sound to some pretty girls in the 185th row ;-) B Am 16.03.2014 12:51, schrieb Edward Chrysogonus Yong: dear collective wisdom, so i was asked to play continuo for a HACURndel Concerto Grosso and spent some time working it out. at the first rehearsal i discover that the continuo line is also being played by 3 violoncelli, an electronic harpsichord, and a double bass all 'playing out'. all of these are modern instruments, played aggressively by players more accustomed to symphonic music. full chords on my large archlute and twiddling nonstop means i am audible to the celli and to the conductor. the tutti violins on the other side of the semicircle have said they can't really hear me, so i wonder if i'd even be heard by the audience. i'm sure other lute players have done gigs like this, so what does one do in situations where one's lute seems largely ornamental? do i just make sure i look pretty? Edward II?III? I.IIuI-oIII?I 1/2I^1I-oII 1/2 II+-III'II?I 1/4IuI-I?I 1/2 IuI-o IuI-I|II 1/2I?I IuI 1/4IuI IuIII 1/4II,I.. HA| litterA| electronicA| ab iPhono missA| sunt. aeCUReaaeuaeP:c, 1/4eae-oe-aaa 3/4iPhonea This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Thomas Schall, DAP:rflistrasse 2, 6078 Lungern, 041 678 00 79 --- Diese E-Mail ist frei von Viren und Malware, denn der avast! Antivirus Schutz ist aktiv. [3]http://www.avast.com -- References 1. mailto:lauten...@lautenist.de 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://www.avast.com/
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
In the mid '80s, I was hired to play renaissance lute at some company's holiday party, and I was instructed to show up in costume (I had recently done a Twelfth Night in costume - and yes, there were tights). I arrived at the address and entered a large crowded party room with a disc jockey, sound system above 100 decibels pounding away the cheesiest disco, black lights, mirror ball; the works. I found the organizer and told her that there must have been some misunderstanding. She told the, no - she wanted me to dance around the dance floor with my lute and pretend like I was playing (my mind was quickly filled with images of a drunken reveler smashing into my lute and scattering splinters of wood across the parquet dance floor). Instead, I quietly packed up and left through the backdoor. Unexpectedly and to my pleasant surprise, I received my check for the entire agreed amount a week later. trj -Original Message- From: Edward Chrysogonus Yong edward.y...@gmail.com To: Lute List List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sun, Mar 16, 2014 7:54 am Subject: [LUTE] Ornamental Lutes dear collective wisdom, so i was asked to play continuo for a Händel Concerto Grosso and spent some time working it out. at the first rehearsal i discover that the continuo line is also being played by 3 violoncelli, an electronic harpsichord, and a double bass all 'playing out'. all of these are modern instruments, played aggressively by players more accustomed to symphonic music. full chords on my large archlute and twiddling nonstop means i am audible to the celli and to the conductor. the tutti violins on the other side of the semicircle have said they can't really hear me, so i wonder if i'd even be heard by the audience. i'm sure other lute players have done gigs like this, so what does one do in situations where one's lute seems largely ornamental? do i just make sure i look pretty? Edward ÏοÏÏο ηλεκÏÏονικÏν ÏαÏÏ Î´Ïομείον εκ είΦÏÎ½Î¿Ï ÎµÎ¼ÎµÏ ÎµÏÎμÏθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. æ¤é»åéµä»¶ç¼éäºèªå¾iPhoneã This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Ornamental Lutes
@trj: A fist bump. On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 12:36 PM, [1]theoj89...@aol.com wrote: In the mid '80s, I was hired to play renaissance lute at some company's holiday party, and I was instructed to show up in costume (I had recently done a Twelfth Night in costume - and yes, there were tights). I arrived at the address and entered a large crowded party room with a disc jockey, sound system above 100 decibels pounding away the cheesiest disco, black lights, mirror ball; the works. I found the organizer and told her that there must have been some misunderstanding. She told the, no - she wanted me to dance around the dance floor with my lute and pretend like I was playing (my mind was quickly filled with images of a drunken reveler smashing into my lute and scattering splinters of wood across the parquet dance floor). Instead, I quietly packed up and left through the backdoor. Unexpectedly and to my pleasant surprise, I received my check for the entire agreed amount a week later. trj -Original Message- From: Edward Chrysogonus Yong [2]edward.y...@gmail.com To: Lute List List [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sun, Mar 16, 2014 7:54 am Subject: [LUTE] Ornamental Lutes dear collective wisdom, so i was asked to play continuo for a HACURndel Concerto Grosso and spent some time working it out. at the first rehearsal i discover that the continuo line is also being played by 3 violoncelli, an electronic harpsichord, and a double bass all 'playing out'. all of these are modern instruments, played aggressively by players more accustomed to symphonic music. full chords on my large archlute and twiddling nonstop means i am audible to the celli and to the conductor. the tutti violins on the other side of the semicircle have said they can't really hear me, so i wonder if i'd even be heard by the audience. i'm sure other lute players have done gigs like this, so what does one do in situations where one's lute seems largely ornamental? do i just make sure i look pretty? Edward II?III? I.IIuI-oIII?I 1/2I^1I-oII 1/2 II+-III'II?I 1/4IuI-I?I 1/2 IuI-o IuI-I|II 1/2I?I IuI 1/4IuI IuIII 1/4II,I.. HA| litterA| electronicA| ab iPhono missA| sunt. aeCUReaaeuaeP:c, 1/4eae-oe-aaa 3/4iPhonea This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. mailto:theoj89...@aol.com 2. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
