[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
And not to forget Stefan Lundgren's chamber opera on that very incident. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMkbZ3tfFjs Best wishes, David At 19:18 +0200 23/7/19, Lex van Sante wrote: The name of the violinist was Petit, who thought that his host (Weiss) had spoken against him when he was applying for a job in Dresden. Cheers, Lex Op 23 jul. 2019, om 17:58 heeft howard posner het volgende geschreven: The biter was a violinist. The bitee was Weiss. On Jul 23, 2019, at 8:45 AM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: Didn't a musician (lute player?) try to bite the thumb off another musician? I can't remember the details- I bet the disagreement was over tempered tuning. They didn't have the internet back then. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
The name of the violinist was Petit, who thought that his host (Weiss) had spoken against him when he was applying for a job in Dresden. Cheers, Lex > Op 23 jul. 2019, om 17:58 heeft howard posner het > volgende geschreven: > > The biter was a violinist. The bitee was Weiss. > >> On Jul 23, 2019, at 8:45 AM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: >> >> Didn't a musician (lute player?) try to bite the thumb off another >> musician? I can't remember the details- >> I bet the disagreement was over tempered tuning. >> They didn't have the internet back then. > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
The biter was a violinist. The bitee was Weiss. > On Jul 23, 2019, at 8:45 AM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: > > Didn't a musician (lute player?) try to bite the thumb off another > musician? I can't remember the details- > I bet the disagreement was over tempered tuning. > They didn't have the internet back then. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
Didn't a musician (lute player?) try to bite the thumb off another musician? I can't remember the details- I bet the disagreement was over tempered tuning. They didn't have the internet back then. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
Dear Howard, thanks for the coaching, but I have to say, that I really couldn't hear any significant difference. Only with the equal tuning one, which was different from the MT ones and more appealing somehow. It's probably due to age :) Best wishes G On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 1:34 AM howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: You might go back and listen to the first F chord, the fourth note of the piece, in the quarter-comma tuning a few times, then listen to the same chord in any of the other meantone tunings. It's weird to the point of dissonance in the quarter-comma version, and very different from the others. Indeed, if I heard it another context I'd assume it was just out of tune. > On Jul 22, 2019, at 4:10 PM, G. C. <[2]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: > >Dear Rainer, >when listening to Tarletone, which came in 4 versions, I have to say, >that to my ears, they all sounded virtually the same, at least the 3 MT >versions. >For some reason, my ears prefered the equal temperament one, although I >can't exactly say why. It felt more "crisp" if that says anything. >My + 60 year's hearing must probably be somewhat deteriorated, or >heavily indoctrinated. >Best wishes >G. >On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 11:49 AM Rainer <[1][3]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de> >wrote: > > Go to > [2][4]http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=80 798 > 8 > and press "Related Links". > I think there are other pages with vocal music in different tunings, > but I cannot remember. > Rainer > PS > We had this discussion not very long ago and apparently nobody has > changed his mind :( > >-- > > References > >1. mailto:[5]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de >2. [6]http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=80798 8 > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 3. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de 4. http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=80798 5. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de 6. http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=807988 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
You might go back and listen to the first F chord, the fourth note of the piece, in the quarter-comma tuning a few times, then listen to the same chord in any of the other meantone tunings. It’s weird to the point of dissonance in the quarter-comma version, and very different from the others. Indeed, if I heard it another context I’d assume it was just out of tune. > On Jul 22, 2019, at 4:10 PM, G. C. wrote: > > Dear Rainer, > when listening to Tarletone, which came in 4 versions, I have to say, > that to my ears, they all sounded virtually the same, at least the 3 MT > versions. > For some reason, my ears prefered the equal temperament one, although I > can't exactly say why. It felt more "crisp" if that says anything. > My + 60 year's hearing must probably be somewhat deteriorated, or > heavily indoctrinated. > Best wishes > G. > On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 11:49 AM Rainer <[1]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de> > wrote: > > Go to > [2]http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=80798 > 8 > and press "Related Links". > I think there are other pages with vocal music in different tunings, > but I cannot remember. > Rainer > PS > We had this discussion not very long ago and apparently nobody has > changed his mind :( > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de > 2. http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=807988 > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
Dear Rainer, when listening to Tarletone, which came in 4 versions, I have to say, that to my ears, they all sounded virtually the same, at least the 3 MT versions. For some reason, my ears prefered the equal temperament one, although I can't exactly say why. It felt more "crisp" if that says anything. My + 60 year's hearing must probably be somewhat deteriorated, or heavily indoctrinated. Best wishes G. On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 11:49 AM Rainer <[1]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de> wrote: Go to [2]http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=80798 8 and press "Related Links". I think there are other pages with vocal music in different tunings, but I cannot remember. Rainer PS We had this discussion not very long ago and apparently nobody has changed his mind :( -- References 1. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de 2. http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=807988 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
On 22.07.2019 04:15, Jurgen Frenz wrote: to my opinion it would be great if someone anyone would record an identical piece of renaissance music twice: once in equal temperament and once in a different tuning so that everybody can appreciate the difference. Of course, one thing that nobody mentioned in this discussion is our "well-tempered" music that from early childhood onward has conditioned our hearing - Arab and Indian musicians hear those micro-intervals much better than we do because their everyday sonic environment contains them. I assume that in the 16th century European ears were differently trained than ours today and hence the music-playing public would hear those intervals that we judge to be of lesser importance. There is a hypothesis that monophonic non-western music survives with little changes precisely because of these subtle intervals that are charged with emotional expressiveness whereas our western harmonic equal 'temperamented' music ended its development around 1900 when all possibilities had been explored. - I do not know if we can improve our hearing so as to recognize the subtleties of non-equal temperament once we are older than 20 or so. Whatever the case, it would be great to hear the difference in an example - it should be remarkable in a slower Dall'Aquila fantasia or something similar. Best wishes Jurgen Go to http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=807988 and press "Related Links". I think there are other pages with vocal music in different tunings, but I cannot remember. Rainer PS We had this discussion not very long ago and apparently nobody has changed his mind :( To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
to my opinion it would be great if someone anyone would record an identical piece of renaissance music twice: once in equal temperament and once in a different tuning so that everybody can appreciate the difference. Of course, one thing that nobody mentioned in this discussion is our "well-tempered" music that from early childhood onward has conditioned our hearing - Arab and Indian musicians hear those micro-intervals much better than we do because their everyday sonic environment contains them. I assume that in the 16th century European ears were differently trained than ours today and hence the music-playing public would hear those intervals that we judge to be of lesser importance. There is a hypothesis that monophonic non-western music survives with little changes precisely because of these subtle intervals that are charged with emotional expressiveness whereas our western harmonic equal 'temperamented' music ended its development around 1900 when all possibilities had been explored. - I do not know if we can improve our hearing so as to recognize the subtleties of non-equal temperament once we are older than 20 or so. Whatever the case, it would be great to hear the difference in an example - it should be remarkable in a slower Dall'Aquila fantasia or something similar. Best wishes Jurgen -- “Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.” Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Sunday, July 21, 2019 11:19 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > Thank you Rafael, > I am intrigued. Would you kindly tell us precisely how you fret your > instrument? I mean the exact cents you employ for each fret, from fret > one through to fret 10 for each of the temperaments you employ. > regards > MH > > On Sunday, 21 July 2019, 16:13:00 BST, Rafael Muñoz RodrÃguez > rafalu...@yahoo.es wrote: > Dear all, > I would like to share my thoughts on this matter, based on my > experience as a gigging and recording musician. Since around 2006 I use > a modified meantone temperament wich, in my opinion, works practically > for fretted plucked instruments. I use it on my theorbo, my archlute > and (only for concerts wich include pieces in distant modes) on my > Renaissance lute and vihuela (Baroque guitar and Baroque lute are > different beasts regarding historical temperaments in my experience). > We could say that it is a temperament wich sits between 1/4 meantone > and the well tempered baroque temperaments. Mayor thirds are not > totally pure and fifths are slightly wider than meantone. It works > beautifully for solo playing and, for what it ´s worth, it works for me > as a chamber music/ continuo player in the real-professional world > (maybe some other players can share their experiences here too). > For concerts, I place my frets and tune my strings using this > temperament and then I make (usually very) slight adjustments with > frets and open strings depending on the keys that will be most used and > in order to be as close as possible to the actual historical > temperament wich the cembalo is using (Meantone, Valloti, Kirnberger, > French temperaments...) BUT without going too far and making my > instrument sound out of tune when played alone. If it is needed I use > one or two tastinos. Then, for example, when using a theorbo, I usually > adjust my 4th fret for sharps and I play G sharp and D sharp always in > the fourth fret, second string and third string respectively. In > absence of a tastino, I avoid 4th and 5th strings in the first fret and > I use them only for A flat and E flat. I also avoid to play certain > notes in specific frets wich shouldn ´t be moved, like A sharp (third > fret fourth string) or C sharp (sixth fret fourth string). And that ´s > all. > For recording, I use this temperament as a basis but, if needed, I > use more tastini and I adjust the frets for each individual movement or > piece. > Maybe I have been very lucky but, in all honesty, I have never been > asked to modify or change my tuning (in fourteen years of live playing > and recording) because it didn ´t work with the historical temperament > in use. My temperament doesn ´t completely match that of the > cembalo/organ, etc... but it is much closer than equal temperament and > with minor adjustments it works in any situation as long as my > instrument sounds in tune by itself too. Of course, if you ´re playing > a concert with lots of different keys (for example a big Opera or > Oratorio) and the conductor asks for equal temperament, you know what > to do. On the other hand, try to record an aria or recitativo by > Monteverdi with a cembalo and a singer and using equal > temperament...some fifths maybe passable but mayor thirds will be > unacceptable. > Sorry for the long post. > Cheers, > Rafael > En domingo, 21 de julio de 2019 11:19:08 CEST, Martyn Hodgson > hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu escribió: > > Dear Matthew, > Thank you for his - though I really do
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
Thank you Rafael,
I am intrigued. Would you kindly tell us precisely how you fret your
instrument? I mean the exact cents you employ for each fret, from fret
one through to fret 10 for each of the temperaments you employ.
regards
MH
On Sunday, 21 July 2019, 16:13:00 BST, Rafael Muñoz RodrÃguez
wrote:
Dear all,
I would like to share my thoughts on this matter, based on my
experience as a gigging and recording musician. Since around 2006 I use
a modified meantone temperament wich, in my opinion, works practically
for fretted plucked instruments. I use it on my theorbo, my archlute
and (only for concerts wich include pieces in distant modes) on my
Renaissance lute and vihuela (Baroque guitar and Baroque lute are
different beasts regarding historical temperaments in my experience).
We could say that it is a temperament wich sits between 1/4 meantone
and the well tempered baroque temperaments. Mayor thirds are not
totally pure and fifths are slightly wider than meantone. It works
beautifully for solo playing and, for what it ´s worth, it works for me
as a chamber music/ continuo player in the real-professional world
(maybe some other players can share their experiences here too).
For concerts, I place my frets and tune my strings using this
temperament and then I make (usually very) slight adjustments with
frets and open strings depending on the keys that will be most used and
in order to be as close as possible to the actual historical
temperament wich the cembalo is using (Meantone, Valloti, Kirnberger,
French temperaments...) BUT without going too far and making my
instrument sound out of tune when played alone. If it is needed I use
one or two tastinos. Then, for example, when using a theorbo, I usually
adjust my 4th fret for sharps and I play G sharp and D sharp always in
the fourth fret, second string and third string respectively. In
absence of a tastino, I avoid 4th and 5th strings in the first fret and
I use them only for A flat and E flat. I also avoid to play certain
notes in specific frets wich shouldn ´t be moved, like A sharp (third
fret fourth string) or C sharp (sixth fret fourth string). And that ´s
all.
For recording, I use this temperament as a basis but, if needed, I
use more tastini and I adjust the frets for each individual movement or
piece.
Maybe I have been very lucky but, in all honesty, I have never been
asked to modify or change my tuning (in fourteen years of live playing
and recording) because it didn ´t work with the historical temperament
in use. My temperament doesn ´t completely match that of the
cembalo/organ, etc... but it is much closer than equal temperament and
with minor adjustments it works in any situation as long as my
instrument sounds in tune by itself too. Of course, if you ´re playing
a concert with lots of different keys (for example a big Opera or
Oratorio) and the conductor asks for equal temperament, you know what
to do. On the other hand, try to record an aria or recitativo by
Monteverdi with a cembalo and a singer and using equal
temperament...some fifths maybe passable but mayor thirds will be
unacceptable.
Sorry for the long post.
Cheers,
Rafael
En domingo, 21 de julio de 2019 11:19:08 CEST, Martyn Hodgson
escribió:
Dear Matthew,
Thank you for his - though I really do not know why you suggest a
'slanging match'!. My intention is merely to put some historical and
practical perspective on the matter rather than simple personal
assertion. To repeat: you are making the common mistake of
discussing
theoretical temperaments (mainly, in practice, only employable on
keyboard instruments) with practical temperaments appropriate for
fretted instruments such as the lute.
Whether or not some modern players might adopt this manner
('meantone')
of fretting is not, of course, the point - perhaps they might
themselves engage in a degree of wishful thinking. Certainly, modern
fashions come and go as fast as fads, and in other areas of lute
performance practice some modern players (even a few professionals
who
might be expected to know better) still insist on, for example,
employing thumb-under for repertoire other than the sixteenth
century.
In short, such anecdotal reports, even from 'professionals, are not
reliable evidence of historic practice.
regards
MH
On Sunday, 21 July 2019, 09:37:33 BST, Matthew Daillie
<[1]dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
I certainly do not wish to get into a slanging match here, I was
merely
responding to a request for practical help with temperaments. In my
opinion, the prerequisite for that is to have some understanding of
the
basics of the theory and above all, to get one's ears used to hearing
pure
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
Dear all,
I would like to share my thoughts on this matter, based on my
experience as a gigging and recording musician. Since around 2006 I use
a modified meantone temperament wich, in my opinion, works practically
for fretted plucked instruments. I use it on my theorbo, my archlute
and (only for concerts wich include pieces in distant modes) on my
Renaissance lute and vihuela (Baroque guitar and Baroque lute are
different beasts regarding historical temperaments in my experience).
We could say that it is a temperament wich sits between 1/4 meantone
and the well tempered baroque temperaments. Mayor thirds are not
totally pure and fifths are slightly wider than meantone. It works
beautifully for solo playing and, for what it ´s worth, it works for me
as a chamber music/ continuo player in the real-professional world
(maybe some other players can share their experiences here too).
For concerts, I place my frets and tune my strings using this
temperament and then I make (usually very) slight adjustments with
frets and open strings depending on the keys that will be most used and
in order to be as close as possible to the actual historical
temperament wich the cembalo is using (Meantone, Valloti, Kirnberger,
French temperaments...) BUT without going too far and making my
instrument sound out of tune when played alone. If it is needed I use
one or two tastinos. Then, for example, when using a theorbo, I usually
adjust my 4th fret for sharps and I play G sharp and D sharp always in
the fourth fret, second string and third string respectively. In
absence of a tastino, I avoid 4th and 5th strings in the first fret and
I use them only for A flat and E flat. I also avoid to play certain
notes in specific frets wich shouldn ´t be moved, like A sharp (third
fret fourth string) or C sharp (sixth fret fourth string). And that ´s
all.
For recording, I use this temperament as a basis but, if needed, I
use more tastini and I adjust the frets for each individual movement or
piece.
Maybe I have been very lucky but, in all honesty, I have never been
asked to modify or change my tuning (in fourteen years of live playing
and recording) because it didn ´t work with the historical temperament
in use. My temperament doesn ´t completely match that of the
cembalo/organ, etc... but it is much closer than equal temperament and
with minor adjustments it works in any situation as long as my
instrument sounds in tune by itself too. Of course, if you ´re playing
a concert with lots of different keys (for example a big Opera or
Oratorio) and the conductor asks for equal temperament, you know what
to do. On the other hand, try to record an aria or recitativo by
Monteverdi with a cembalo and a singer and using equal
temperament...some fifths maybe passable but mayor thirds will be
unacceptable.
Sorry for the long post.
Cheers,
Rafael
En domingo, 21 de julio de 2019 11:19:08 CEST, Martyn Hodgson
escribió:
Dear Matthew,
Thank you for his - though I really do not know why you suggest a
'slanging match'!. My intention is merely to put some historical and
practical perspective on the matter rather than simple personal
assertion. To repeat: you are making the common mistake of
discussing
theoretical temperaments (mainly, in practice, only employable on
keyboard instruments) with practical temperaments appropriate for
fretted instruments such as the lute.
Whether or not some modern players might adopt this manner
('meantone')
of fretting is not, of course, the point - perhaps they might
themselves engage in a degree of wishful thinking. Certainly, modern
fashions come and go as fast as fads, and in other areas of lute
performance practice some modern players (even a few professionals
who
might be expected to know better) still insist on, for example,
employing thumb-under for repertoire other than the sixteenth
century.
In short, such anecdotal reports, even from 'professionals, are not
reliable evidence of historic practice.
regards
MH
On Sunday, 21 July 2019, 09:37:33 BST, Matthew Daillie
<[1]dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
I certainly do not wish to get into a slanging match here, I was
merely
responding to a request for practical help with temperaments. In my
opinion, the prerequisite for that is to have some understanding of
the
basics of the theory and above all, to get one's ears used to hearing
pure intervals, which is no more complicated than hearing octaves
(some
would claim that it is actually easier).
It is perfectly feasible to tune a lute to some form of meantone with
fairly minimal means (I do not favour the use of slanting frets). The
proof is that many of the top players do it, both for
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
OK, I stand corrected, you know best. Have a nice day.
Matthew
Le 21 juil. 2019 à 11:15, Martyn Hodgson a
écrit :
> Dear Matthew,
> Thank you for his - though I really do not know why you suggest a
> 'slanging match'!. My intention is merely to put some historical and
> practical perspective on the matter rather than simple personal
> assertion. To repeat: you are making the common mistake of discussing
> theoretical temperaments (mainly, in practice, only employable on
> keyboard instruments) with practical temperaments appropriate for
> fretted instruments such as the lute.
> Whether or not some modern players might adopt this manner ('meantone')
> of fretting is not, of course, the point - perhaps they might
> themselves engage in a degree of wishful thinking. Certainly, modern
> fashions come and go as fast as fads, and in other areas of lute
> performance practice some modern players (even a few professionals who
> might be expected to know better) still insist on, for example,
> employing thumb-under for repertoire other than the sixteenth century.
> In short, such anecdotal reports, even from 'professionals, are not
> reliable evidence of historic practice.
> regards
> MH
>
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
Dear Matthew,
Thank you for his - though I really do not know why you suggest a
'slanging match'!. My intention is merely to put some historical and
practical perspective on the matter rather than simple personal
assertion. To repeat: you are making the common mistake of discussing
theoretical temperaments (mainly, in practice, only employable on
keyboard instruments) with practical temperaments appropriate for
fretted instruments such as the lute.
Whether or not some modern players might adopt this manner ('meantone')
of fretting is not, of course, the point - perhaps they might
themselves engage in a degree of wishful thinking. Certainly, modern
fashions come and go as fast as fads, and in other areas of lute
performance practice some modern players (even a few professionals who
might be expected to know better) still insist on, for example,
employing thumb-under for repertoire other than the sixteenth century.
In short, such anecdotal reports, even from 'professionals, are not
reliable evidence of historic practice.
regards
MH
On Sunday, 21 July 2019, 09:37:33 BST, Matthew Daillie
wrote:
I certainly do not wish to get into a slanging match here, I was merely
responding to a request for practical help with temperaments. In my
opinion, the prerequisite for that is to have some understanding of the
basics of the theory and above all, to get one's ears used to hearing
pure intervals, which is no more complicated than hearing octaves (some
would claim that it is actually easier).
It is perfectly feasible to tune a lute to some form of meantone with
fairly minimal means (I do not favour the use of slanting frets). The
proof is that many of the top players do it, both for recordings and
public performances. Once the lute is set up, this merely requires the
adjustment of a fret or two between certain pieces, so hardly rocket
science.
One cannot simply dismiss out of hand the use of meantone on the lute.
It can be enriching and satisfying for those players who wish to
explore the possibilities but it is not a sine que non for playing the
lute. It is often made to appear unnecessarily complicated but the
fundamentals (which are are frequently overlooked) are perfectly
accessible to any lutenist.
I have no bone to pick here (I play the renaissance lute in both
meantone and equal temperaments and the baroque lute almost exclusively
in equal temperament), but I do react unfavorably to sweeping
statements that have little grounding in fact.
Best,
Matthew
Le 21 juil. 2019 Ã 08:07, Martyn Hodgson
<[1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> a écrit :
> Dear Matthew,
> Yes - of course this is the case. But you are making the common
mistake
> of discussing theoretical temperaments (mainly, in practice, only
> employable on keyboard instruments) with practical temperaments
> appropriate for fretted instruments such as the lute.
> The problem is, of course, that a single fret across the fingerboard
> may have to suit for both a major or a minor semitone depending on
the
> open tuning and key. Such things as slanted frets can sometimes be
> used on the viol when playing simple single melodic lines, but with
> chords, as commonly found on the lute, matters are entirely
different.
> The idea of tastini as reported by Galilei (1584) has also beguiled
> some modern players but in practice they are far from practical for
> works with any significant degree of fingering complexity and,
> moreover, Galilei himself makes it clear that it is not a practice
he
> advocates - indeed, he castigates those few who employ it.
> Incidentally, there's also a real dearth of iconographic evidence to
> support the practice (or indeed slanted frets) on the lute which is,
> surely, very telling.
> In short, all these theoretical meanderings about meantone on the
lute
> is, with the exception of small parts of the repertoire, simply
> self-delusion and wishful thinking ('I have a better sense of tuning
> than you'..).
> As mentioned by others earlier in this thread, early evidence
clearly
> points in the direction of some approximation to equal temperament.
> MH
To get on or off this list see list information at
[2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
I certainly do not wish to get into a slanging match here, I was merely
responding to a request for practical help with temperaments. In my opinion,
the prerequisite for that is to have some understanding of the basics of the
theory and above all, to get one's ears used to hearing pure intervals, which
is no more complicated than hearing octaves (some would claim that it is
actually easier).
It is perfectly feasible to tune a lute to some form of meantone with fairly
minimal means (I do not favour the use of slanting frets). The proof is that
many of the top players do it, both for recordings and public performances.
Once the lute is set up, this merely requires the adjustment of a fret or two
between certain pieces, so hardly rocket science.
One cannot simply dismiss out of hand the use of meantone on the lute. It can
be enriching and satisfying for those players who wish to explore the
possibilities but it is not a sine que non for playing the lute. It is often
made to appear unnecessarily complicated but the fundamentals (which are are
frequently overlooked) are perfectly accessible to any lutenist.
I have no bone to pick here (I play the renaissance lute in both meantone and
equal temperaments and the baroque lute almost exclusively in equal
temperament), but I do react unfavorably to sweeping statements that have
little grounding in fact.
Best,
Matthew
Le 21 juil. 2019 à 08:07, Martyn Hodgson a
écrit :
> Dear Matthew,
> Yes - of course this is the case. But you are making the common mistake
> of discussing theoretical temperaments (mainly, in practice, only
> employable on keyboard instruments) with practical temperaments
> appropriate for fretted instruments such as the lute.
> The problem is, of course, that a single fret across the fingerboard
> may have to suit for both a major or a minor semitone depending on the
> open tuning and key. Such things as slanted frets can sometimes be
> used on the viol when playing simple single melodic lines, but with
> chords, as commonly found on the lute, matters are entirely different.
> The idea of tastini as reported by Galilei (1584) has also beguiled
> some modern players but in practice they are far from practical for
> works with any significant degree of fingering complexity and,
> moreover, Galilei himself makes it clear that it is not a practice he
> advocates - indeed, he castigates those few who employ it.
> Incidentally, there's also a real dearth of iconographic evidence to
> support the practice (or indeed slanted frets) on the lute which is,
> surely, very telling.
> In short, all these theoretical meanderings about meantone on the lute
> is, with the exception of small parts of the repertoire, simply
> self-delusion and wishful thinking ('I have a better sense of tuning
> than you'..).
> As mentioned by others earlier in this thread, early evidence clearly
> points in the direction of some approximation to equal temperament.
> MH
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