Re: Languages and strings
Arto, I thank you for the lesson in suomi, and the words for instruments used in Suomi. Now, because the subject line is appropriate, I'm going to add some comments and questions for you and all. First, I no longer have to put quotes around the flat back I made. I went to a book store today to get a good Latin/English dictionary as my harp ensemble has started working on medieval part songs (mainly from the church music) and I wanted the sense of the songs. While there I stopped at the music section and found a definitive dictionary of music. I didn't buy it, it was too pedantic and too expensive. But it had a classification of instruments (with long Latinate words - chordomax, etc.) But the classification had five major categories, and in the subcategory of stringed instruments (under the category of membraned instruments, I think) there was one for the harp and one for the lute and one for the zither. The harp group has strings perpendicular to the soundboard, the zither has strings parallel to the soundboard (but no the sound box not needed except for enhancement) - and the lute with strings parallel to the soundboard and the soundboard integral to the sound box. The violin family, the guitar family, and even the ukelele were all categorized as lutes. So my flat back is a lute at least in the official family category g, if not in the terms of the Renaissance Lute. Next, I've strung the bugger, and it is definitely not a lutar. The sound resembles that of the lute CD's I've heard. But I can see some error in the designer's choice of stringing. I have some fine tuning to do (pun intended) with regard to fret, nut and bridge height for ease of play - and there arise the questions. Technical from here on in, those not into detail are welcome to go on to their next message. The instrument is seven courses, one chanterelle and six paired. The nut is 57 mm wide, I have set the separation between the courses at 5 mm, and the separation between the pairs at 2.5 mm (that is approximate, but it is about all I could do with 57mm to work with. The bridge end is 100mm, with the course separation 11mm and the pair separation 5mm. The vibrating length is 25 inches (63cm). So the first question is this, is that a reasonable (if not perfect) set of dimensions for a playable lute? If it isn't then I'm stuck with it anyway, and it seems to play quite nicely - although I'm going to have to adjust some of my angles of attack from the guitar (and that will be a later question when I get used to the machine). Second question, stringing. The set I received with the kit is from LaBella - and specifically for lute (the strings have had the hard surface shaved). The upper four monofiliment courses (shaved diameter) are, from the g chanterelle on down, .022in, .028in, .032in, and .038in (.56mm, .71mm, .81mm, and .965mm respectively - if my calculation is correct). They seem to play well. The lower three courses (C, G and F) are brass wound nylon. They are .028, .033, and .038 with the winding (.71, .84, and .965 mm's respectively). Here I have a problem. The fifth course (C) plays quite well with the .028 (.71mm), the sixth course is adequate, and the seventh is too loose (the strings bump on each other). I would think that the sixth should be about .030, and the seventh no more than .032 (to allow for lowering the pitch to simulate an eight or nine course lute). It seems crazy that the seventh course should be so much heavier guage for just a second below the sixth - but in defense of the designer, it rings beautifully if stroked softly, so perhaps that is what the lutenist wants. Any and all advice accepted (except go out and buy a proper lute. I can't afford that so must make my starter instrument the best I can make it. And if anyone has recommendations for strings, or a string chart based on vibrating length, they will be appreciated. Best, Jon
Re: Languages and strings
Dear Jon, Somewhere in the vague distances of my mind I remember singing in Finnish. There is a recollection that the name of the country, or the people, was Suuomi (spelling?). Is my memory totally failed, or is there a word that is similar that describes the country. Well yes, in Finnish Finland is Suomi and Finnish language is suomi. So the country names start with capital letters and language names not. And at the end of this Finnish lesson there are some names of countries and instruments... ;-) Alankomaat Netherlands Englanti England Ruotsi Sweden Tanska Denmark Norja Norway Saksa Germany Itävalta Austria Italia Italy Espanja Spain Kanada Canada Venäjä Russia Yhdysvallat United States Japani Japan Viro Estonia luuttu lute teorbi theorbo kitara guitar viulu violin nokkahuilu recorder sello cello kantele kantele Arto ;)
Re: Languages and strings
I believe Finnish, Hungarian and Turkish are related and not of Indo-European origin.- they are called something like Turko-Ugrarian. A Turkic tribe moved westward from Anatolia through Eastern Europe to Finland. I had a Hungarian friend (sadly now deceased) who explained something like this to me. Cheers Monica
Re: Languages and strings
Dear Monica, you wrote: I believe Finnish, Hungarian and Turkish are related and not of Indo-European origin.- they are called something like Turko-Ugrarian. A Turkic tribe moved westward from Anatolia through Eastern Europe to Finland. That is a funny legend... ;-) As far as I know, the relation between Turkish and Finno-Ugrian (or Fenno-Ugrian) languages is not nearer than let us say between English and Turkish... I made a Google search and found a page, where there is a language tree of Fenno-Ugrian languages: http://www.finska.su.se/fennougreng.html It actually gave a link to a still clearer page and the source of the tree: http://eunuch.ddg.com/LIS/InfoDesignF97/paivir/finnish/finnugr.html But where are the lutes? ;-) Cheers Arto
Re: Languages and strings
Monica Hall at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A Turkic tribe moved westward from Anatolia through Eastern Europe to Finland. Finland must have moved considerably to the north and east since then.
Re: Languages and strings
Dear Monica, Finnish and Hungarian are part of a group of languages known as Finno-Ugric or Finno-Ugrian. Finnish and Estonian are quite close to each other, but Hungarian, although it has evolved from the same common language, has gone its own separate way, and the similarities are not so obvious. The source of my information is Peter Hajdu, _Finno-Ugrian Languages and Peoples_, translated and adapted by G. F. Cushing (London: Andre Deutsch, 1975). This book is slightly out of date now, inasmuch as the population figures will have altered. There are a large number of Russian speakers in Estonia now, particularly in areas like Narva to the north east of the country near Russia. Some of the minority languages mentioned by Hajdu may well be extinct now. There are many groups of Finno-Ugric languages, including the languages of the Lapps, Samoyeds and others. Hajdu lists the following as Baltic Finns, each with their own language or particular version of Finno-Ugric: 1) Finns - 4,696,000 in 1970; 2) Estonians: 1,300,000; 3) Carelians: hard to count, but likely to be the 3rd largest group; 4) Ingrians: 1,100 people, and only a third of them speak their language; 5) Vepsians: 16,000 in 1959; 6) Vodians: The Vodians have almost died out. 7) Livonians: fewer than 500 still living. I'm afraid the Turkish language doesn't come into it. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Monica Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lutenet [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 8:22 AM Subject: Re: Languages and strings I believe Finnish, Hungarian and Turkish are related and not of Indo-European origin.- they are called something like Turko-Ugrarian. A Turkic tribe moved westward from Anatolia through Eastern Europe to Finland. I had a Hungarian friend (sadly now deceased) who explained something like this to me. Cheers Monica
Re: Languages and strings
Stewart, Somewhere in the vague distances of my mind I remember singing in Finnish. There is a recollection that the name of the country, or the people, was Suuomi (spelling?). Is my memory totally failed, or is there a word that is similar that describes the country. Best, Jon
Re: Languages and strings
Ah me, how can I leave this lute irrelevant thread? But I can't stop thinking of language - and it does relate to music as each evolves a bit differently in different communities. Just that a Finnish speaker and an Estonian speaker understand each other as much as an Italian speaker and a Spanish speaker. Actually I suppose Finnish and Estonian are a bit more different than Italian and Spanish. English may be one of the best examples. I'm sure it is easier for a Finn to understand an Estonian, and certainly easier for a Spaniard to understand an Italian, than it was a hundred years ago (before radio and TV) for Yorkshireman to understand someone from Dorset (I speak of the rurals, rather than the cityfolk). Jim is correct, English is a stolen language (better said, borrowed). The island was invaded from all sides, the Danes of the midlands and north - the Gaelic speaking Irish Scots into Scotland (wiping out the Picts, who had their own form of Gaelic). The Gaelic Britons in the south, driving the Cymri (another form of Gaelic, and quite similar to the native language of Brittany) into the hills of the west. The Roman incursion, and much later the Teutonic English of the Angles and Saxons. And finally the Norman French (who were themselves new to French having been Skandinavian invaders to Normandy only about a hundred years before). Such a small island to have so many swift invasions of differing languages, some retained and some lost in part. A Texan can understand a Brooklynite, or a Down Easter, better than some of the Brits could understand each other a hundred years ago. My mother was a cockney from London, and I can still run off some of her quotes and be totally incomprehensible to most English speakers. Best, Jon
Re: Languages and strings
Dear Arto and All: Could this also be the source of the Gaelic word ceilidh, meaning music party? I would be surprised if there weren't at least a few Finnish words in the English language. English seems to have stolen words from everybody else. Yours, Jim Arto Wikla [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED], Roman Turovsky i.fi [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lute Net 11/04/2003 03:59 [EMAIL PROTECTED] AM Subject: Languages and strings Please respond to wikla Dear Jon, you wrote: I assume, Arto, that when you refer to the difference between Italian and Spanish in the context of language, that you mean a difference among the Just that a Finnish speaker and an Estonian speaker understand each other as much as an Italian speaker and a Spanish speaker. Actually I suppose Finnish and Estonian are a bit more different than Italian and Spanish. But I do think there is no Finno-Urgic in English, It might be wrong, but I have heard that the word boy would come from Swedish/Scandinavish word pojke, which would come from the Finnish word poika. They all have the same meaning. and no one has answered me on the Basque. Is that of that Finno family? Or is it another separate language. Basque is certainly not Fenno-Ugrian language!! I guess some Indo-Europeans just have heard something they do not understand at all, and they thought those languages must have something in common: their un-understability...;-) All this is quit off from lutes. So here is something to come back: In Finnish the word language, tongue, and STRING are all kieli! So a lute string is luutun kieli, English language is englannin kieli, and cat's tongue is kissan kieli. String instrument is kielisoitin, etc. Arto
Re: Languages and strings
For what I know, and please correct me if I'm wrong, Basque's origin is not yet 100% clear. Any expert's opinion? Agur, Ariel. In fact it is 100% unclear. RT
