Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Dear Ed I liked the sound, though for me they were a tiny bit too metallic, so I changed them on all of my lutes to Pistoys after all. Only on the big d'-lute I've kept them (too expensive, indeed, to change for the few times I need the instrument, and on this moster a little more punch doesn't hurt. You'll be able to hear these strings on this bass lute on my upcoming cd with all Terzi duets). Trueness was no problem, I didn't experience the trouble on string 6 Edward talked about. But Gimped strings do tend to get out of tune in the other direction than the pure gut octave strings, that was a problem in concerts. So, I made a _very_ expensive experiment. David * David van Ooijen Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Http://home.planet.nl/~d.v.ooijen/ * - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 12:48 PM Subject: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Ed and Eric, I know the gimped strings sound great. I heard one on Kenneth's lute. Have you paired these gimped strings with an octave? Any problems with intonation? I'd mostlikely pair it with a Nylgut octave. I was just at Dan's site and about to order some gimped strings, but unless I'm mistaken, these are very expensive. I'd be getting about 5 or 6 strings (for two lutes). This is a couple hundred dollars. I'm very concerned about the trueness. I found the loaded gut strings were useless when paired with an octave string. They would be in tune at the open position and out of tune at the third fret. I would pair it with a Nylgut octave. Do you think that would create problems? For example, would they go in opposite directions if the climate changed? I don't want to make an expensive mistake. TIA As I said before, I use Dan Larson's gimped strings for mandolino and archlute bases... and they seem to be very long-lived indeed. I personally like these strings very much. And yes, they are as you describe them. On Dan's earlier gimped strings the wire was often detectable on the surface of the string. With his current version, you only feel the smooth gut surface. These strings are also very pretty to look at since you can see the spiral of wire through the gut. Best, Eric Craig Allen wrote: Ed wrote: Wound 6th courses do not last as long as gut strings, believe me. I think it is because in a wound string, you have 2 moving parts the metal winding, and then the floss core. They are actually moving parts, where in a gut string, the gut fibers are homogeneously bound. Gut basses last (seemingly) forever. Have you had any experience with the gimped string? If I recall this is a gut string with a single wire wrapped in a longish spiral. I have the same problem Michael does with the wound strings, particularly on the fifth course, wearing out right around the third fret. As a side note, has anyone experimented with making a gimped nylon, nylgut or carbon fiber bass string? Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
On Tuesday 19 April 2005 08:00, you wrote: I second David's opinion. The gimped strings are indeed a bit too metallic. The alternative is however a thick Pistoy cable on your lute for basstrings. For me a reason to keep the gimped strings until I have better alternative: Dan is sending me at the moment some experimental loaded gut strings made with tungsten, which should not exhibit the problems commonly attached to loaded gut strings, but I don't have any experience yet with them. Perhaps the ideal is a lute without gimped strings using pistoy-like strings for basses for G (6) and F (7) on renaissance lutes/archlutes and these loaded gut for lower basses (which are not used on fretted positions normally). By the way my experience with these gimped strings for a 10 course is that these strings grow better in sound after approx. 6 months to a year in sound. The metallic sound however does not disappear unfortunately. Taco Dear Ed I liked the sound, though for me they were a tiny bit too metallic, so I changed them on all of my lutes to Pistoys after all. Only on the big d'-lute I've kept them (too expensive, indeed, to change for the few times I need the instrument, and on this moster a little more punch doesn't hurt. You'll be able to hear these strings on this bass lute on my upcoming cd with all Terzi duets). Trueness was no problem, I didn't experience the trouble on string 6 Edward talked about. But Gimped strings do tend to get out of tune in the other direction than the pure gut octave strings, that was a problem in concerts. So, I made a _very_ expensive experiment. David * David van Ooijen Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Http://home.planet.nl/~d.v.ooijen/ * - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 12:48 PM Subject: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Ed and Eric, I know the gimped strings sound great. I heard one on Kenneth's lute. Have you paired these gimped strings with an octave? Any problems with intonation? I'd mostlikely pair it with a Nylgut octave. I was just at Dan's site and about to order some gimped strings, but unless I'm mistaken, these are very expensive. I'd be getting about 5 or 6 strings (for two lutes). This is a couple hundred dollars. I'm very concerned about the trueness. I found the loaded gut strings were useless when paired with an octave string. They would be in tune at the open position and out of tune at the third fret. I would pair it with a Nylgut octave. Do you think that would create problems? For example, would they go in opposite directions if the climate changed? I don't want to make an expensive mistake. TIA As I said before, I use Dan Larson's gimped strings for mandolino and archlute bases... and they seem to be very long-lived indeed. I personally like these strings very much. And yes, they are as you describe them. On Dan's earlier gimped strings the wire was often detectable on the surface of the string. With his current version, you only feel the smooth gut surface. These strings are also very pretty to look at since you can see the spiral of wire through the gut. Best, Eric Craig Allen wrote: Ed wrote: Wound 6th courses do not last as long as gut strings, believe me. I think it is because in a wound string, you have 2 moving parts the metal winding, and then the floss core. They are actually moving parts, where in a gut string, the gut fibers are homogeneously bound. Gut basses last (seemingly) forever. Have you had any experience with the gimped string? If I recall this is a gut string with a single wire wrapped in a longish spiral. I have the same problem Michael does with the wound strings, particularly on the fifth course, wearing out right around the third fret. As a side note, has anyone experimented with making a gimped nylon, nylgut or carbon fiber bass string? Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
An ideal string, being perfectly limp (i.e., having no beam stiffnes) can form a perfect hinge at each end. Every real string, because of its stiffness, must deform with a short length of reverse curve at each end, moving the point of inflection away from the end, and causing the frequency to be higher than that of an ideal string of the same length.So, It is as though the string is shorter. I appreciate your point and your explanation. A shortened effective length is indeed an aspect of a semi-rigid string. However, there are other aspects (eg, the restoring force from stiffness) whose relative importance we have not ascertained. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Ed and Eric, I know the gimped strings sound great. I heard one on Kenneth's lute. Have you paired these gimped strings with an octave? Any problems with intonation? I'd mostlikely pair it with a Nylgut octave. I was just at Dan's site and about to order some gimped strings, but unless I'm mistaken, these are very expensive. I'd be getting about 5 or 6 strings (for two lutes). This is a couple hundred dollars. I'm very concerned about the trueness. I found the loaded gut strings were useless when paired with an octave string. They would be in tune at the open position and out of tune at the third fret. I would pair it with a Nylgut octave. Do you think that would create problems? For example, would they go in opposite directions if the climate changed? I don't want to make an expensive mistake. TIA As I said before, I use Dan Larson's gimped strings for mandolino and archlute bases... and they seem to be very long-lived indeed. I personally like these strings very much. And yes, they are as you describe them. On Dan's earlier gimped strings the wire was often detectable on the surface of the string. With his current version, you only feel the smooth gut surface. These strings are also very pretty to look at since you can see the spiral of wire through the gut. Best, Eric Craig Allen wrote: Ed wrote: Wound 6th courses do not last as long as gut strings, believe me. I think it is because in a wound string, you have 2 moving parts the metal winding, and then the floss core. They are actually moving parts, where in a gut string, the gut fibers are homogeneously bound. Gut basses last (seemingly) forever. Have you had any experience with the gimped string? If I recall this is a gut string with a single wire wrapped in a longish spiral. I have the same problem Michael does with the wound strings, particularly on the fifth course, wearing out right around the third fret. As a side note, has anyone experimented with making a gimped nylon, nylgut or carbon fiber bass string? Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Yes, gimped are expensive. But, they are nice strings. They are true. I caution you to order them starting at the 7th course, not any higher than the 6th. The reason for this is when fingering them (left had) with an octave, the intonation often is a bit off. This is not because of trueness, but due the stiffness with the wire. This particular wire woven into the gut makes the string more rigid, and when vibrating, it is as though the string is shorter, because it does not quite vibrate for the entire length of the string. So, for basses deeper than the 6th course, they are fantastic, as they are true, and fingering the 7th course lower is infrequent enough that intonation is not a problem. No, they are not false, as loaded strings are. They agree perfectly with plain gut octaves, in the open string. That is why I always start with the 7th course when using gimped. Gor the 6th and 5th course, Pistoys work, as they agree perfectly with their ocataves. Incidentally, I do not know how they would work with nylgut octaves. When one mixes materials within a course, the results are not always the best. ed At 07:48 PM 4/18/2005 +0900, Ed Durbrow wrote: Ed and Eric, I know the gimped strings sound great. I heard one on Kenneth's lute. Have you paired these gimped strings with an octave? Any problems with intonation? I'd mostlikely pair it with a Nylgut octave. I was just at Dan's site and about to order some gimped strings, but unless I'm mistaken, these are very expensive. I'd be getting about 5 or 6 strings (for two lutes). This is a couple hundred dollars. I'm very concerned about the trueness. I found the loaded gut strings were useless when paired with an octave string. They would be in tune at the open position and out of tune at the third fret. I would pair it with a Nylgut octave. Do you think that would create problems? For example, would they go in opposite directions if the climate changed? I don't want to make an expensive mistake. TIA As I said before, I use Dan Larson's gimped strings for mandolino and archlute bases... and they seem to be very long-lived indeed. I personally like these strings very much. And yes, they are as you describe them. On Dan's earlier gimped strings the wire was often detectable on the surface of the string. With his current version, you only feel the smooth gut surface. These strings are also very pretty to look at since you can see the spiral of wire through the gut. Best, Eric Craig Allen wrote: Ed wrote: Wound 6th courses do not last as long as gut strings, believe me. I think it is because in a wound string, you have 2 moving parts the metal winding, and then the floss core. They are actually moving parts, where in a gut string, the gut fibers are homogeneously bound. Gut basses last (seemingly) forever. Have you had any experience with the gimped string? If I recall this is a gut string with a single wire wrapped in a longish spiral. I have the same problem Michael does with the wound strings, particularly on the fifth course, wearing out right around the third fret. As a side note, has anyone experimented with making a gimped nylon, nylgut or carbon fiber bass string? Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Thank you for your thoughts on this. I was thinking of these for my 6 and 7 course lutes. Maybe I'd better get just one gimped for the 7 course and Pistoys for the 5 6 for both lutes. BTW, I retune between D F fairly often on the 7 course. It hasn't been a problem with the overspun. Just wondering. Thanks Yes, gimped are expensive. But, they are nice strings. They are true. I caution you to order them starting at the 7th course, not any higher than the 6th. The reason for this is when fingering them (left had) with an octave, the intonation often is a bit off. This is not because of trueness, but due the stiffness with the wire. This particular wire woven into the gut makes the string more rigid, and when vibrating, it is as though the string is shorter, because it does not quite vibrate for the entire length of the string. So, for basses deeper than the 6th course, they are fantastic, as they are true, and fingering the 7th course lower is infrequent enough that intonation is not a problem. No, they are not false, as loaded strings are. They agree perfectly with plain gut octaves, in the open string. That is why I always start with the 7th course when using gimped. Gor the 6th and 5th course, Pistoys work, as they agree perfectly with their ocataves. Incidentally, I do not know how they would work with nylgut octaves. When one mixes materials within a course, the results are not always the best. ed At 07:48 PM 4/18/2005 +0900, Ed Durbrow wrote: Ed and Eric, I know the gimped strings sound great. I heard one on Kenneth's lute. Have you paired these gimped strings with an octave? Any problems with intonation? I'd mostlikely pair it with a Nylgut octave. I was just at Dan's site and about to order some gimped strings, but unless I'm mistaken, these are very expensive. I'd be getting about 5 or 6 strings (for two lutes). This is a couple hundred dollars. I'm very concerned about the trueness. I found the loaded gut strings were useless when paired with an octave string. They would be in tune at the open position and out of tune at the third fret. I would pair it with a Nylgut octave. Do you think that would create problems? For example, would they go in opposite directions if the climate changed? I don't want to make an expensive mistake. TIA As I said before, I use Dan Larson's gimped strings for mandolino and archlute bases... and they seem to be very long-lived indeed. I personally like these strings very much. And yes, they are as you describe them. On Dan's earlier gimped strings the wire was often detectable on the surface of the string. With his current version, you only feel the smooth gut surface. These strings are also very pretty to look at since you can see the spiral of wire through the gut. Best, Eric Craig Allen wrote: Ed wrote: Wound 6th courses do not last as long as gut strings, believe me. I think it is because in a wound string, you have 2 moving parts the metal winding, and then the floss core. They are actually moving parts, where in a gut string, the gut fibers are homogeneously bound. Gut basses last (seemingly) forever. Have you had any experience with the gimped string? If I recall this is a gut string with a single wire wrapped in a longish spiral. I have the same problem Michael does with the wound strings, particularly on the fifth course, wearing out right around the third fret. As a side note, has anyone experimented with making a gimped nylon, nylgut or carbon fiber bass string? Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
This particular wire woven into the gut makes the string more rigid, and when vibrating, it is as though the string is shorter, because it does not quite vibrate for the entire length of the string. The phrase it does not quite vibrate for the entire length is misleading, and could not support a quantitative analysis. Here is a more accurate version: ... and when vibrating, it vibrates faster because the rigidity adds extra restoring force when the string is displaced from its rest (equilibrium) position. In other words, A limp string gets restoring force 1. from the tension only. A semi-rigid string gets restoring force 1. from the tension, and 2. from the rigidity. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
True enough, but... An ideal string, being perfectly limp (i.e., having no beam stiffnes) can form a perfect hinge at each end. Every real string, because of its stiffness, must deform with a short length of reverse curve at each end, moving the point of inflection away from the end, and causing the frequency to be higher than that of an ideal string of the same length.So, It is as though the string is shorter. David Cameron This particular wire woven into the gut makes the string more rigid, and when vibrating, it is as though the string is shorter, because it does not quite vibrate for the entire length of the string. The phrase it does not quite vibrate for the entire length is misleading, and could not support a quantitative analysis. Here is a more accurate version: ... and when vibrating, it vibrates faster because the rigidity adds extra restoring force when the string is displaced from its rest (equilibrium) position. In other words, A limp string gets restoring force 1. from the tension only. A semi-rigid string gets restoring force 1. from the tension, and 2. from the rigidity. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Good morning, some weeks ago on our traditional lute party in berlin i tried a gut-stringed lute. It was terrible, completely out of tune after contact with my finger tips (less than 10 sec). I tend to wet fingertips especially when I am stressed out. So I stay with my synthetics (mixture of nyl, carbon and copper wounded strings). My 7-c- lute is very stable in tune. My luthier (renatus lechner) told me that he works in his workshop with an air dehumidifier (30 - 40 % humiditiy). Greetings w. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Edward Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. April 2005 19:25 An: Michael Thames; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; timothy motz Betreff: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Michael, I think humidity has a great deal to do with all the problems with gut. I live in northern Minnesota, and gut is a problem in the summer, due to high humidity. So, I keep 1 instrument in synthetic strings for the summer months. Michael, I am sorry that you had such a miserable experience with gut. I used to find it wildly un tunable unstable, but for the past 9 years in gut, I have only had 2 bad tuning experiences. Unfortunately, one was last summer in Clevaland, at the LSA seminar, where Phil Rukavina I performed the Valderrabano duets in gut. We acclimated the instrument strings to air conditioning, but the AC was turned off due to noise, tuning problems started from as the temp humidity rose. The other problem was in Maui (yes, what a great gig! I was flown to Maui for 2 concerts in the winter).. I left Minnesota in winter, arrived in summer tropical climate. The baroque lute in gut took 4 days to even get it up to pitch! But, my vihuela, then in synthetics, had problems adjusting as well. Another point you brought up was the fingers .. some people must have oils or other substances on their fingers, they seem to be unable to handle gut, as it frays quickly, etc. I used to have this problem, but I find it manageable because I make certain I always wash my hands before picking up the instrument. Clean fingers make a difference. Also, I take care of my fingertips, making certain they are soft smooth. Rough finger tips tear into gut badly. Being a builder, are your hands rough? On other occasions, I have traveled toured using gut, it has been every bit as stable as synthetics, but I arrived at least a couple of days before the gig. But, if one flies to a concert performs that day, the climate change can make tuning a bit wacky. So, for a same-day concert, I would go with synthetics. Gut is not for everyone. It is a commitment in fantastic sound, with less compromise. lately, I am tempted to go back to synthetics, as it is much less fuss. ed At 10:44 AM 4/13/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: If I remember right, Michael live in New Mexico. Could the dry air there be the reason why he has such problems with tuning in general and gut in particular Timothy, excellent point! After reading Kenneth's account of his concert at 37,000 feet, and the confession that he couldn't keep the lute in tune, finally makes sense. My house sits at 7100 feet, and it's very dry here. The gut strings are probably dry as a bone to begin with, and as I've said the problem with in tuneness only happens as I begin to play, and introduce moisture from my fingers, on to the strings. This could also happen to a lesser degree with wound basses, and nylgut. My apologies to all. However here in Taos, what you all were saying seemed impossible. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: timothy motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 10:09 AM Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. If I remember right, Michael live in New Mexico. Could the dry air there be the reason why he has such problems with tuning in general and gut in particular? I'm an absolute newbie both as a player and a builder, but I have very few problems with gut on my lute. Unless I'm playing it, most of the time it sits in its case. And, as Kenneth Be has reminded me, museums are the perfect environments for lutes. Kenneth and I both work in museums, and I keep my lute in the office during the week so I can practice during my lunch break. But even at home my lute is pretty stable. It's only when I put it in the car and take it to my lessons that it shifts much. Tim Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:26:46 -0600 I have silver wound basses, and trebles and octaves are all nylgut with one carbon first string. My lute usually hangs on the wall where I play everyday, and would say it stays in tune remarkably
Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Hello Tim, it should be because of the rapid changing of air pressure and humidity. I somehow live in a privileged region as humidity is rather stable and ranges from 55 - 70 % which is okay for lutes. The only time I had severe problems with tuning was one occassion years ago as just before a recital a heavy shower was coming by and both air pressure and humidity changed within minutes. A short drive never affected the tuning of my lutes, even when driving the 500 km to switzerland seldom affects the tuning of one of my instruments. Best wishes Thomas timothy motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 13.04.2005 18:09:48 An:[EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kopie: Thema: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. If I remember right, Michael live in New Mexico. Could the dry air there be the reason why he has such problems with tuning in general and gut in particular? I'm an absolute newbie both as a player and a builder, but I have very few problems with gut on my lute. Unless I'm playing it, most of the time it sits in its case. And, as Kenneth Be has reminded me, museums are the perfect environments for lutes. Kenneth and I both work in museums, and I keep my lute in the office during the week so I can practice during my lunch break. But even at home my lute is pretty stable. It's only when I put it in the car and take it to my lessons that it shifts much. Tim Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:26:46 -0600 I have silver wound basses, and trebles and octaves are all nylgut with one carbon first string. My lute usually hangs on the wall where I play everyday, and would say it stays in tune remarkably well. But, I always need to fine tune it the next day, or an hour into my practice session. Also I replace the first 2 single strings, after 2 or 3 months because of indentations causing indentation problems The gut experience was horrific, I couldn't make it through one piece without having to stop and tune, This lasted for two months. Initially, the lute would go in tune and stay there fine, until I would begin to play, then moisture from my fingers seemed to cause it to constantly go out. I've always heard of great success stories with gut but, after talking to Paul Odette, he said guts impossible to use in concert settings with forced air heating and air conditioning. He uses nylgut. I saw Paul Odette take his lute out of the case in the master class and immediately start tuning it up, and this was after he played a concert the night before in Santa Fe. Same with Ronn McFarlane, he was tuning on stage. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:12 AM Subject: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Hi Ed, it wasn't me stating something about people being pitch-challenged. Actually I have had the same experience as you. After being stretched completely the nylguts I'm using on most of my lutes remain fairly good in tune and I often do not need to tune for several days. by the way: the remaining gut strings on my 10-course (which I just changed recently) stayed well in tune, too. I don't like carbon strings because of their brightness - it's just too much and found that nylgut is a perfect compromise between the sound of gut and the practical advantages of a syntethic material. And after being used this synthetics I feel uncomfortable playing gut (just a bit as if the finger would be glued to the string). Kenneth told me he would feel just the other way round as he played on my 11-course (he have had gut on his renaissance lute which traveled with him to germany last year). Best wishes Thomas Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 13.04.2005 00:09:59 An:[EMAIL PROTECTED], Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Kopie: Thema: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. In this discussion, I have found similar instances when string stability has been wonderful. Sometimes, I leave an instrument in the case (all gut strung baroque lute), and after no attention for a few months, I open the lid to my astonishment, it is in remarkably good tune. This is the exception to the rule, but gut has a bad reputation. The newer strings are more stable, in my opinion. Either that, or we are learning how ti use it better than before. In terms of string stability, carbon takes the prize for being the most stable string ever produced. It seems as though it is absolutely impervious to temperature humidity. I stopped using carbon about 12 years ago, but prior to that, the saying was that a lutenist could apply crazy glue to the pegs, because those strings are so stable that they almost require no tuning after being totally stretched out. They were
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
An old NY friend transplanted to Germany (whose name I won't mention not knowing whether he minds being called in such a causa) has skin that is so caustic to gut strings that they last no more than a few days. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Good morning, some weeks ago on our traditional lute party in berlin i tried a gut-stringed lute. It was terrible, completely out of tune after contact with my finger tips (less than 10 sec). I tend to wet fingertips especially when I am stressed out. So I stay with my synthetics (mixture of nyl, carbon and copper wounded strings). My 7-c- lute is very stable in tune. My luthier (renatus lechner) told me that he works in his workshop with an air dehumidifier (30 - 40 % humiditiy). Greetings w. -Urspr?he Nachricht- Von: Edward Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. April 2005 19:25 An: Michael Thames; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; timothy motz Betreff: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Michael, I think humidity has a great deal to do with all the problems with gut. I live in northern Minnesota, and gut is a problem in the summer, due to high humidity. So, I keep 1 instrument in synthetic strings for the summer months. Michael, I am sorry that you had such a miserable experience with gut. I used to find it wildly un tunable unstable, but for the past 9 years in gut, I have only had 2 bad tuning experiences. Unfortunately, one was last summer in Clevaland, at the LSA seminar, where Phil Rukavina I performed the Valderrabano duets in gut. We acclimated the instrument strings to air conditioning, but the AC was turned off due to noise, tuning problems started from as the temp humidity rose. The other problem was in Maui (yes, what a great gig! I was flown to Maui for 2 concerts in the winter).. I left Minnesota in winter, arrived in summer tropical climate. The baroque lute in gut took 4 days to even get it up to pitch! But, my vihuela, then in synthetics, had problems adjusting as well. Another point you brought up was the fingers .. some people must have oils or other substances on their fingers, they seem to be unable to handle gut, as it frays quickly, etc. I used to have this problem, but I find it manageable because I make certain I always wash my hands before picking up the instrument. Clean fingers make a difference. Also, I take care of my fingertips, making certain they are soft smooth. Rough finger tips tear into gut badly. Being a builder, are your hands rough? On other occasions, I have traveled toured using gut, it has been every bit as stable as synthetics, but I arrived at least a couple of days before the gig. But, if one flies to a concert performs that day, the climate change can make tuning a bit wacky. So, for a same-day concert, I would go with synthetics. Gut is not for everyone. It is a commitment in fantastic sound, with less compromise. lately, I am tempted to go back to synthetics, as it is much less fuss. ed At 10:44 AM 4/13/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: If I remember right, Michael live in New Mexico. Could the dry air there be the reason why he has such problems with tuning in general and gut in particular Timothy, excellent point! After reading Kenneth's account of his concert at 37,000 feet, and the confession that he couldn't keep the lute in tune, finally makes sense. My house sits at 7100 feet, and it's very dry here. The gut strings are probably dry as a bone to begin with, and as I've said the problem with in tuneness only happens as I begin to play, and introduce moisture from my fingers, on to the strings. This could also happen to a lesser degree with wound basses, and nylgut. My apologies to all. However here in Taos, what you all were saying seemed impossible. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: timothy motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 10:09 AM Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. If I remember right, Michael live in New Mexico. Could the dry air there be the reason why he has such problems with tuning in general and gut in particular? I'm an absolute newbie both as a player and a builder, but I have very few problems with gut on my lute. Unless I'm playing it, most of the time it sits in its case. And, as Kenneth Be has reminded me, museums are the perfect environments for lutes. Kenneth and I both work in museums, and I keep my lute in the office during the week so I can practice during my lunch break. But even at home my lute is pretty stable. It's only when I put it in the car and take it to my lessons that it shifts much. Tim Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
After all this talk about strings, last night after playing for sometime I began to notice my 6th course copper wound string wore thru the metal, right where my thumb strikes it (half way between bridge and rose) and is coming unraveled. second time in a year this has happened. Maybe I play too much. Sterling Price told me he has the same strings on his lute today as when he bought it from Donna Curry 10 years ago. Ed mentions 9 years. The other wound basses are wearing smooth and will go at some point soon as well. Oh well! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Wolfgang Wiehe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:00 AM Subject: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Good morning, some weeks ago on our traditional lute party in berlin i tried a gut-stringed lute. It was terrible, completely out of tune after contact with my finger tips (less than 10 sec). I tend to wet fingertips especially when I am stressed out. So I stay with my synthetics (mixture of nyl, carbon and copper wounded strings). My 7-c- lute is very stable in tune. My luthier (renatus lechner) told me that he works in his workshop with an air dehumidifier (30 - 40 % humiditiy). Greetings w. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Edward Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. April 2005 19:25 An: Michael Thames; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; timothy motz Betreff: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Michael, I think humidity has a great deal to do with all the problems with gut. I live in northern Minnesota, and gut is a problem in the summer, due to high humidity. So, I keep 1 instrument in synthetic strings for the summer months. Michael, I am sorry that you had such a miserable experience with gut. I used to find it wildly un tunable unstable, but for the past 9 years in gut, I have only had 2 bad tuning experiences. Unfortunately, one was last summer in Clevaland, at the LSA seminar, where Phil Rukavina I performed the Valderrabano duets in gut. We acclimated the instrument strings to air conditioning, but the AC was turned off due to noise, tuning problems started from as the temp humidity rose. The other problem was in Maui (yes, what a great gig! I was flown to Maui for 2 concerts in the winter).. I left Minnesota in winter, arrived in summer tropical climate. The baroque lute in gut took 4 days to even get it up to pitch! But, my vihuela, then in synthetics, had problems adjusting as well. Another point you brought up was the fingers .. some people must have oils or other substances on their fingers, they seem to be unable to handle gut, as it frays quickly, etc. I used to have this problem, but I find it manageable because I make certain I always wash my hands before picking up the instrument. Clean fingers make a difference. Also, I take care of my fingertips, making certain they are soft smooth. Rough finger tips tear into gut badly. Being a builder, are your hands rough? On other occasions, I have traveled toured using gut, it has been every bit as stable as synthetics, but I arrived at least a couple of days before the gig. But, if one flies to a concert performs that day, the climate change can make tuning a bit wacky. So, for a same-day concert, I would go with synthetics. Gut is not for everyone. It is a commitment in fantastic sound, with less compromise. lately, I am tempted to go back to synthetics, as it is much less fuss. ed At 10:44 AM 4/13/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: If I remember right, Michael live in New Mexico. Could the dry air there be the reason why he has such problems with tuning in general and gut in particular Timothy, excellent point! After reading Kenneth's account of his concert at 37,000 feet, and the confession that he couldn't keep the lute in tune, finally makes sense. My house sits at 7100 feet, and it's very dry here. The gut strings are probably dry as a bone to begin with, and as I've said the problem with in tuneness only happens as I begin to play, and introduce moisture from my fingers, on to the strings. This could also happen to a lesser degree with wound basses, and nylgut. My apologies to all. However here in Taos, what you all were saying seemed impossible. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: timothy motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 10:09 AM Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. If I remember right, Michael live in New Mexico. Could the dry air there be the reason why he has such problems with tuning in general and gut in particular? I'm an absolute newbie both as a player and a builder, but I have very few problems with gut on my
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Wound 6th courses do not last as long as gut strings, believe me. I think it is because in a wound string, you have 2 moving parts the metal winding, and then the floss core. They are actually moving parts, where in a gut string, the gut fibers are homogeneously bound. Gut basses last (seemingly) forever. ed At 07:35 AM 4/14/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: After all this talk about strings, last night after playing for sometime I began to notice my 6th course copper wound string wore thru the metal, right where my thumb strikes it (half way between bridge and rose) and is coming unraveled. second time in a year this has happened. Maybe I play too much. Sterling Price told me he has the same strings on his lute today as when he bought it from Donna Curry 10 years ago. Ed mentions 9 years. The other wound basses are wearing smooth and will go at some point soon as well. Oh well! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Wolfgang Wiehe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:00 AM Subject: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Good morning, some weeks ago on our traditional lute party in berlin i tried a gut-stringed lute. It was terrible, completely out of tune after contact with my finger tips (less than 10 sec). I tend to wet fingertips especially when I am stressed out. So I stay with my synthetics (mixture of nyl, carbon and copper wounded strings). My 7-c- lute is very stable in tune. My luthier (renatus lechner) told me that he works in his workshop with an air dehumidifier (30 - 40 % humiditiy). Greetings w. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Edward Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. April 2005 19:25 An: Michael Thames; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; timothy motz Betreff: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Michael, I think humidity has a great deal to do with all the problems with gut. I live in northern Minnesota, and gut is a problem in the summer, due to high humidity. So, I keep 1 instrument in synthetic strings for the summer months. Michael, I am sorry that you had such a miserable experience with gut. I used to find it wildly un tunable unstable, but for the past 9 years in gut, I have only had 2 bad tuning experiences. Unfortunately, one was last summer in Clevaland, at the LSA seminar, where Phil Rukavina I performed the Valderrabano duets in gut. We acclimated the instrument strings to air conditioning, but the AC was turned off due to noise, tuning problems started from as the temp humidity rose. The other problem was in Maui (yes, what a great gig! I was flown to Maui for 2 concerts in the winter).. I left Minnesota in winter, arrived in summer tropical climate. The baroque lute in gut took 4 days to even get it up to pitch! But, my vihuela, then in synthetics, had problems adjusting as well. Another point you brought up was the fingers .. some people must have oils or other substances on their fingers, they seem to be unable to handle gut, as it frays quickly, etc. I used to have this problem, but I find it manageable because I make certain I always wash my hands before picking up the instrument. Clean fingers make a difference. Also, I take care of my fingertips, making certain they are soft smooth. Rough finger tips tear into gut badly. Being a builder, are your hands rough? On other occasions, I have traveled toured using gut, it has been every bit as stable as synthetics, but I arrived at least a couple of days before the gig. But, if one flies to a concert performs that day, the climate change can make tuning a bit wacky. So, for a same-day concert, I would go with synthetics. Gut is not for everyone. It is a commitment in fantastic sound, with less compromise. lately, I am tempted to go back to synthetics, as it is much less fuss. ed At 10:44 AM 4/13/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: If I remember right, Michael live in New Mexico. Could the dry air there be the reason why he has such problems with tuning in general and gut in particular Timothy, excellent point! After reading Kenneth's account of his concert at 37,000 feet, and the confession that he couldn't keep the lute in tune, finally makes sense. My house sits at 7100 feet, and it's very dry here. The gut strings are probably dry as a bone to begin with, and as I've said the problem with in tuneness only happens as I begin to play, and introduce moisture from my fingers, on to the strings. This could also happen to a lesser degree with wound basses, and nylgut. My apologies to all. However here in Taos, what you all were saying seemed impossible. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Ed wrote: Wound 6th courses do not last as long as gut strings, believe me. I think it is because in a wound string, you have 2 moving parts the metal winding, and then the floss core. They are actually moving parts, where in a gut string, the gut fibers are homogeneously bound. Gut basses last (seemingly) forever. Have you had any experience with the gimped string? If I recall this is a gut string with a single wire wrapped in a longish spiral. I have the same problem Michael does with the wound strings, particularly on the fifth course, wearing out right around the third fret. As a side note, has anyone experimented with making a gimped nylon, nylgut or carbon fiber bass string? Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
As I said before, I use Dan Larson's gimped strings for mandolino and archlute bases... and they seem to be very long-lived indeed. I personally like these strings very much. And yes, they are as you describe them. On Dan's earlier gimped strings the wire was often detectable on the surface of the string. With his current version, you only feel the smooth gut surface. These strings are also very pretty to look at since you can see the spiral of wire through the gut. Best, Eric Craig Allen wrote: Ed wrote: Wound 6th courses do not last as long as gut strings, believe me. I think it is because in a wound string, you have 2 moving parts the metal winding, and then the floss core. They are actually moving parts, where in a gut string, the gut fibers are homogeneously bound. Gut basses last (seemingly) forever. Have you had any experience with the gimped string? If I recall this is a gut string with a single wire wrapped in a longish spiral. I have the same problem Michael does with the wound strings, particularly on the fifth course, wearing out right around the third fret. As a side note, has anyone experimented with making a gimped nylon, nylgut or carbon fiber bass string? Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Dear Craig, Yes, I have a great deal of experience with the gimped string. Or, at least with the gimped string that Dan Larson makes. I like them very much, as for the 7th course lower, they have the same principles as loaded gut, in that with the wire, it makes for a smaller diameter string for a given length to pitch to Kg. of tension. What I live about Dan's gimped string is that in construction, it is a Pistoy, that is a flexible string, with 3 strands, triple twisted. He twists into this string a piece of flexible wire, and therefore, the wire is homogeneously bonded with the gut, so it will not wear out or get buzzy. I do not like them for 5th courses, because they are a stiffer string due to the wire, and therefore, intonation is sometimes a problem. But, as compared to loaded strings, they are true in vibrations, and therefore, a wonderful sound of high quality. For a 5th string, I do not recommend wound they were probably never used. They are way too bright, and they wear poorly, especially in the 2nd fret position. For the best, get a Pistoy. This is for either renaissance or baroque lute. They are fantastic, period. Or for a substitution, you can try either nylgut 5th or the Savarez KFG. The smooth strings sound so much better than wound ones, and they last a long time. ed At 07:05 AM 4/14/2005 -0700, Craig Allen wrote: Ed wrote: Wound 6th courses do not last as long as gut strings, believe me. I think it is because in a wound string, you have 2 moving parts the metal winding, and then the floss core. They are actually moving parts, where in a gut string, the gut fibers are homogeneously bound. Gut basses last (seemingly) forever. Have you had any experience with the gimped string? If I recall this is a gut string with a single wire wrapped in a longish spiral. I have the same problem Michael does with the wound strings, particularly on the fifth course, wearing out right around the third fret. As a side note, has anyone experimented with making a gimped nylon, nylgut or carbon fiber bass string? Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Yes, they are beautiful strings. Not only in sound, but they are gorgeous to look at, for whatever that is worth. For your information, Dan is starting to experiment with gimped strings, made from Tungsten wire, instead of copper. It is heavier denser than copper, therefore, a brighter sound. I have not tried any of them, but they are interesting in appearance, because the tungsten wire is black. Dan did make some strings some time ago that were gimped with 14 K. gold wire, and I understand they were fantastic, but I never tried one myself (the gold was pricey). ed At 08:21 AM 4/14/2005 -0600, Eric Liefeld wrote: As I said before, I use Dan Larson's gimped strings for mandolino and archlute bases... and they seem to be very long-lived indeed. I personally like these strings very much. And yes, they are as you describe them. On Dan's earlier gimped strings the wire was often detectable on the surface of the string. With his current version, you only feel the smooth gut surface. These strings are also very pretty to look at since you can see the spiral of wire through the gut. Best, Eric Craig Allen wrote: Ed wrote: Wound 6th courses do not last as long as gut strings, believe me. I think it is because in a wound string, you have 2 moving parts the metal winding, and then the floss core. They are actually moving parts, where in a gut string, the gut fibers are homogeneously bound. Gut basses last (seemingly) forever. Have you had any experience with the gimped string? If I recall this is a gut string with a single wire wrapped in a longish spiral. I have the same problem Michael does with the wound strings, particularly on the fifth course, wearing out right around the third fret. As a side note, has anyone experimented with making a gimped nylon, nylgut or carbon fiber bass string? Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Hi Ed, it wasn't me stating something about people being pitch-challenged. Actually I have had the same experience as you. After being stretched completely the nylguts I'm using on most of my lutes remain fairly good in tune and I often do not need to tune for several days. by the way: the remaining gut strings on my 10-course (which I just changed recently) stayed well in tune, too. I don't like carbon strings because of their brightness - it's just too much and found that nylgut is a perfect compromise between the sound of gut and the practical advantages of a syntethic material. And after being used this synthetics I feel uncomfortable playing gut (just a bit as if the finger would be glued to the string). Kenneth told me he would feel just the other way round as he played on my 11-course (he have had gut on his renaissance lute which traveled with him to germany last year). Best wishes Thomas Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 13.04.2005 00:09:59 An:[EMAIL PROTECTED], Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Kopie: Thema: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. In this discussion, I have found similar instances when string stability has been wonderful. Sometimes, I leave an instrument in the case (all gut strung baroque lute), and after no attention for a few months, I open the lid to my astonishment, it is in remarkably good tune. This is the exception to the rule, but gut has a bad reputation. The newer strings are more stable, in my opinion. Either that, or we are learning how ti use it better than before. In terms of string stability, carbon takes the prize for being the most stable string ever produced. It seems as though it is absolutely impervious to temperature humidity. I stopped using carbon about 12 years ago, but prior to that, the saying was that a lutenist could apply crazy glue to the pegs, because those strings are so stable that they almost require no tuning after being totally stretched out. They were also durable, as I had a set on for around 9 years, without changing strings [even the trebles!], they retained the same sound trueness. So, if you want practicality (tuning stability, longevity of string life) go with carbon. But, as Roman suggested, it is a rather cold sounding string. It is loud and clear, as the high density increases its efficiency. Thomas has stated we are pitch challenged of lying about this, that it is impossible for an instrument to stay in tune after travel. I believe Roman and Kenneth, as we have all had similarly good tuning experiences. ed At 01:00 PM 4/12/2005 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Donatella et Roman, I the use same mixture of Nylgut and Pyramid strings on my ten course and find that it stays in tune remarkably well, although I'm not that crazy about the sound of the pyramid basses on this instrument. Roman - have you found this tuning stability to be typical with carbon? I'm thinking of stringing my theorbo at least partially with it. Chris --- Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My Hasenfuss- Weigert baroque is also factory tuned, as a gambist joking told me. I hardly ever need to tune , especially if I don't change keys or if the weather is not too wet. I use a mixture of Aquila and Pyramid strings. (Ok, hardly ever means every two, three days, but I've just had a wonderful wine with a dessert which is a specialty from Piedmont and I feel quite optimistic...) Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 7:52 PM Subject: Re: lute outreach 1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the 10-hour overnight ride to Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat in the morning. I didn't touch a peg for the rest of the weekend So let me get this straight, your saying over a three day period from NY. In different rooms, hotel, houses, concert hall etc. you didn't touch a peg other than your 11th course. You are either pitch challenged, or prone to spinning tall tales, most likely both! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:28 AM Subject: Re: lute outreach P.S. 2 interesting details: 1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the 10-hour overnight ride to Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat in the morning. I didn't touch a peg for the rest of the weekend. 2. Our program is on a controversial side, and it might (and should) have caused considerable consternation on the part of clergy of 4 denominations present (including an archbishop). But Mar'jana's act consisted largely from the songs
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Thomas has stated we are pitch challenged of lying about this, that it is impossible for an instrument to stay in tune after travel. I believe Roman and Kenneth, as we have all had similarly good tuning experiences. In my years of using carbon I had the same experience: incredible pitch stability and durability. Which does cause problems when playing together with gut-strung instruments, by the way: they go up or down together, while I stay stable, making me out of tune, not them. ;-) Now, using gut, I've had some good experiences, some not so good ones, but on the whole I found gut to be a lot more stable than I always thought it would be. I played my all-gut theorbo last Sunday in a church where the organ was 429Hz (local standard pitch for centuries so they told me) and something close to equal temperament, while I came from 440Hz 1/4 comma mean-tone. I tuned down, adjusted frets and did not have to tune any more during rehearsal or concert. It was very cold, but when I arrived it rained and when I left the sun was shining, so not very stable humidity. David PS; My rice-cake/omelette was fine, but did not stick together very well. Not enough egg I suppose. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
I have one gut string on my lute at the 3rd course, because I broke a string. The gut has been a constant endless source of irritation. As all the other strings are fine. In my experience a mixture of string materials on one instrument is a common source for intonation problems. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning..
That's my experience, too and I don't like the different feeling when touching the different material. So I wonder why so many obviously do mix different kinds of strings. Thomas LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 13.04.2005 10:39:35 An:Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Kopie: Thema: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. I have one gut string on my lute at the 3rd course, because I broke a string. The gut has been a constant endless source of irritation. As all the other strings are fine. In my experience a mixture of string materials on one instrument is a common source for intonation problems. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Dear David, In my last note, I stated Thomas, but I meant to say Michael. My apologies. Yes David, I am mostly using gut now, with exception on my 8 course lute. I have 1 instrument in synthetics, the rest in gut. Do you play 13 course baroque lute? If so, do you use gut for that instrument? And so, what is your experience with stability? ed At 10:35 AM 4/13/2005 +0200, LGS-Europe wrote: Thomas has stated we are pitch challenged of lying about this, that it is impossible for an instrument to stay in tune after travel. I believe Roman and Kenneth, as we have all had similarly good tuning experiences. In my years of using carbon I had the same experience: incredible pitch stability and durability. Which does cause problems when playing together with gut-strung instruments, by the way: they go up or down together, while I stay stable, making me out of tune, not them. ;-) Now, using gut, I've had some good experiences, some not so good ones, but on the whole I found gut to be a lot more stable than I always thought it would be. I played my all-gut theorbo last Sunday in a church where the organ was 429Hz (local standard pitch for centuries so they told me) and something close to equal temperament, while I came from 440Hz 1/4 comma mean-tone. I tuned down, adjusted frets and did not have to tune any more during rehearsal or concert. It was very cold, but when I arrived it rained and when I left the sun was shining, so not very stable humidity. David PS; My rice-cake/omelette was fine, but did not stick together very well. Not enough egg I suppose. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning..
I have silver wound basses, and trebles and octaves are all nylgut with one carbon first string. My lute usually hangs on the wall where I play everyday, and would say it stays in tune remarkably well. But, I always need to fine tune it the next day, or an hour into my practice session. Also I replace the first 2 single strings, after 2 or 3 months because of indentations causing indentation problems The gut experience was horrific, I couldn't make it through one piece without having to stop and tune, This lasted for two months. Initially, the lute would go in tune and stay there fine, until I would begin to play, then moisture from my fingers seemed to cause it to constantly go out. I've always heard of great success stories with gut but, after talking to Paul Odette, he said guts impossible to use in concert settings with forced air heating and air conditioning. He uses nylgut. I saw Paul Odette take his lute out of the case in the master class and immediately start tuning it up, and this was after he played a concert the night before in Santa Fe. Same with Ronn McFarlane, he was tuning on stage. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:12 AM Subject: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Hi Ed, it wasn't me stating something about people being pitch-challenged. Actually I have had the same experience as you. After being stretched completely the nylguts I'm using on most of my lutes remain fairly good in tune and I often do not need to tune for several days. by the way: the remaining gut strings on my 10-course (which I just changed recently) stayed well in tune, too. I don't like carbon strings because of their brightness - it's just too much and found that nylgut is a perfect compromise between the sound of gut and the practical advantages of a syntethic material. And after being used this synthetics I feel uncomfortable playing gut (just a bit as if the finger would be glued to the string). Kenneth told me he would feel just the other way round as he played on my 11-course (he have had gut on his renaissance lute which traveled with him to germany last year). Best wishes Thomas Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 13.04.2005 00:09:59 An:[EMAIL PROTECTED], Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Kopie: Thema: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. In this discussion, I have found similar instances when string stability has been wonderful. Sometimes, I leave an instrument in the case (all gut strung baroque lute), and after no attention for a few months, I open the lid to my astonishment, it is in remarkably good tune. This is the exception to the rule, but gut has a bad reputation. The newer strings are more stable, in my opinion. Either that, or we are learning how ti use it better than before. In terms of string stability, carbon takes the prize for being the most stable string ever produced. It seems as though it is absolutely impervious to temperature humidity. I stopped using carbon about 12 years ago, but prior to that, the saying was that a lutenist could apply crazy glue to the pegs, because those strings are so stable that they almost require no tuning after being totally stretched out. They were also durable, as I had a set on for around 9 years, without changing strings [even the trebles!], they retained the same sound trueness. So, if you want practicality (tuning stability, longevity of string life) go with carbon. But, as Roman suggested, it is a rather cold sounding string. It is loud and clear, as the high density increases its efficiency. Thomas has stated we are pitch challenged of lying about this, that it is impossible for an instrument to stay in tune after travel. I believe Roman and Kenneth, as we have all had similarly good tuning experiences. ed At 01:00 PM 4/12/2005 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Donatella et Roman, I the use same mixture of Nylgut and Pyramid strings on my ten course and find that it stays in tune remarkably well, although I'm not that crazy about the sound of the pyramid basses on this instrument. Roman - have you found this tuning stability to be typical with carbon? I'm thinking of stringing my theorbo at least partially with it. Chris --- Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My Hasenfuss- Weigert baroque is also factory tuned, as a gambist joking told me. I hardly ever need to tune , especially if I don't change keys or if the weather is not too wet. I use a mixture of Aquila and Pyramid strings. (Ok, hardly ever means every two, three days, but I've just had a wonderful wine with a dessert which is a specialty from Piedmont and I feel quite optimistic...) Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Let me tell about some interesting lute outreach during which I definitely could NOT keep my gut strings in tune. Several months ago I was crossing over the Atlantic in a B747 cargo jet and couldn't resist giving my first-ever lute outreach performance over the Mid-Atlantic Ridge to my fellow passenger/couriers. I played familiar simple tunes like Greensleeves, but eventually gave up because it was impossible to keep the strings tuned in the super-dry air cabin environment, not to mention the competition with the noise from the jet engines! However, at close range my listeners could at least appreciate hearing and seeing a lute for the first time. Kenneth -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
I have wondered if anyone had ever taken a lute out in flight played for passengers! Good show, Kenneth! ed At 10:54 AM 4/13/2005 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me tell about some interesting lute outreach during which I definitely could NOT keep my gut strings in tune. Several months ago I was crossing over the Atlantic in a B747 cargo jet and couldn't resist giving my first-ever lute outreach performance over the Mid-Atlantic Ridge to my fellow passenger/couriers. I played familiar simple tunes like Greensleeves, but eventually gave up because it was impossible to keep the strings tuned in the super-dry air cabin environment, not to mention the competition with the noise from the jet engines! However, at close range my listeners could at least appreciate hearing and seeing a lute for the first time. Kenneth -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning..
If I remember right, Michael live in New Mexico. Could the dry air there be the reason why he has such problems with tuning in general and gut in particular? I'm an absolute newbie both as a player and a builder, but I have very few problems with gut on my lute. Unless I'm playing it, most of the time it sits in its case. And, as Kenneth Be has reminded me, museums are the perfect environments for lutes. Kenneth and I both work in museums, and I keep my lute in the office during the week so I can practice during my lunch break. But even at home my lute is pretty stable. It's only when I put it in the car and take it to my lessons that it shifts much. Tim Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:26:46 -0600 I have silver wound basses, and trebles and octaves are all nylgut with one carbon first string. My lute usually hangs on the wall where I play everyday, and would say it stays in tune remarkably well. But, I always need to fine tune it the next day, or an hour into my practice session. Also I replace the first 2 single strings, after 2 or 3 months because of indentations causing indentation problems The gut experience was horrific, I couldn't make it through one piece without having to stop and tune, This lasted for two months. Initially, the lute would go in tune and stay there fine, until I would begin to play, then moisture from my fingers seemed to cause it to constantly go out. I've always heard of great success stories with gut but, after talking to Paul Odette, he said guts impossible to use in concert settings with forced air heating and air conditioning. He uses nylgut. I saw Paul Odette take his lute out of the case in the master class and immediately start tuning it up, and this was after he played a concert the night before in Santa Fe. Same with Ronn McFarlane, he was tuning on stage. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:12 AM Subject: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Hi Ed, it wasn't me stating something about people being pitch-challenged. Actually I have had the same experience as you. After being stretched completely the nylguts I'm using on most of my lutes remain fairly good in tune and I often do not need to tune for several days. by the way: the remaining gut strings on my 10-course (which I just changed recently) stayed well in tune, too. I don't like carbon strings because of their brightness - it's just too much and found that nylgut is a perfect compromise between the sound of gut and the practical advantages of a syntethic material. And after being used this synthetics I feel uncomfortable playing gut (just a bit as if the finger would be glued to the string). Kenneth told me he would feel just the other way round as he played on my 11-course (he have had gut on his renaissance lute which traveled with him to germany last year). Best wishes Thomas Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 13.04.2005 00:09:59 An:[EMAIL PROTECTED], Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Kopie: Thema: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. In this discussion, I have found similar instances when string stability has been wonderful. Sometimes, I leave an instrument in the case (all gut strung baroque lute), and after no attention for a few months, I open the lid to my astonishment, it is in remarkably good tune. This is the exception to the rule, but gut has a bad reputation. The newer strings are more stable, in my opinion. Either that, or we are learning how ti use it better than before. In terms of string stability, carbon takes the prize for being the most stable string ever produced. It seems as though it is absolutely impervious to temperature humidity. I stopped using carbon about 12 years ago, but prior to that, the saying was that a lutenist could apply crazy glue to the pegs, because those strings are so stable that they almost require no tuning after being totally stretched out. They were also durable, as I had a set on for around 9 years, without changing strings [even the trebles!], they retained the same sound trueness. So, if you want practicality (tuning stability, longevity of string life) go with carbon. But, as Roman suggested, it is a rather cold sounding string. It is loud and clear, as the high density increases its efficiency. Thomas has stated we are pitch challenged of lying about this, that it is impossible for an instrument to stay in tune after travel. I believe Roman and Kenneth, as we have all had similarly good tuning experiences. ed At 01:00 PM 4/12/2005 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Donatella et Roman, I the use same mixture of Nylgut and Pyramid strings on my ten
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
My Hasenfuss- Weigert baroque is also factory tuned, as a gambist joking told me. I hardly ever need to tune , especially if I don't change keys or if the weather is not too wet. I use a mixture of Aquila and Pyramid strings. (Ok, hardly ever means every two, three days, but I've just had a wonderful wine with a dessert which is a specialty from Piedmont and I feel quite optimistic...) All I can say is I'm extremely envious of all you folks that live in such stable climates. Kenneth will confirm the problems I have with tuning, as he showed up for the set where I could not get my lute in tune no matter what. Hey, I change my strings every decade whether they need them or not! :-) -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning..
I too live in NM (the southern part) and though it can be extremely dry, I have very few problems with gut strings. In general, I'm doing pretty well if I can keep the general humidity around 40% when its much lower outside. Of course, the summers where I live (an agricultural valley) can bring very high humidity as well... upwards of 90%. Its the changes that ultimately get to the instruments. Mostly I use gut-only on a variety of mandolinos, and I find it to be extremely stable. I use strings from Chris Hendriksen and Dan Larson. I hope to move to gut stringing on lutes in the near future as I can afford it. Just my 2-cents... (if only gut strings were so inexpensive!) Best, Eric timothy motz wrote: If I remember right, Michael live in New Mexico. Could the dry air there be the reason why he has such problems with tuning in general and gut in particular? I'm an absolute newbie both as a player and a builder, but I have very few problems with gut on my lute. Unless I'm playing it, most of the time it sits in its case. And, as Kenneth Be has reminded me, museums are the perfect environments for lutes. Kenneth and I both work in museums, and I keep my lute in the office during the week so I can practice during my lunch break. But even at home my lute is pretty stable. It's only when I put it in the car and take it to my lessons that it shifts much. Tim To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Michael, I think humidity has a great deal to do with all the problems with gut. I live in northern Minnesota, and gut is a problem in the summer, due to high humidity. So, I keep 1 instrument in synthetic strings for the summer months. Michael, I am sorry that you had such a miserable experience with gut. I used to find it wildly un tunable unstable, but for the past 9 years in gut, I have only had 2 bad tuning experiences. Unfortunately, one was last summer in Clevaland, at the LSA seminar, where Phil Rukavina I performed the Valderrabano duets in gut. We acclimated the instrument strings to air conditioning, but the AC was turned off due to noise, tuning problems started from as the temp humidity rose. The other problem was in Maui (yes, what a great gig! I was flown to Maui for 2 concerts in the winter).. I left Minnesota in winter, arrived in summer tropical climate. The baroque lute in gut took 4 days to even get it up to pitch! But, my vihuela, then in synthetics, had problems adjusting as well. Another point you brought up was the fingers .. some people must have oils or other substances on their fingers, they seem to be unable to handle gut, as it frays quickly, etc. I used to have this problem, but I find it manageable because I make certain I always wash my hands before picking up the instrument. Clean fingers make a difference. Also, I take care of my fingertips, making certain they are soft smooth. Rough finger tips tear into gut badly. Being a builder, are your hands rough? On other occasions, I have traveled toured using gut, it has been every bit as stable as synthetics, but I arrived at least a couple of days before the gig. But, if one flies to a concert performs that day, the climate change can make tuning a bit wacky. So, for a same-day concert, I would go with synthetics. Gut is not for everyone. It is a commitment in fantastic sound, with less compromise. lately, I am tempted to go back to synthetics, as it is much less fuss. ed At 10:44 AM 4/13/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: If I remember right, Michael live in New Mexico. Could the dry air there be the reason why he has such problems with tuning in general and gut in particular Timothy, excellent point! After reading Kenneth's account of his concert at 37,000 feet, and the confession that he couldn't keep the lute in tune, finally makes sense. My house sits at 7100 feet, and it's very dry here. The gut strings are probably dry as a bone to begin with, and as I've said the problem with in tuneness only happens as I begin to play, and introduce moisture from my fingers, on to the strings. This could also happen to a lesser degree with wound basses, and nylgut. My apologies to all. However here in Taos, what you all were saying seemed impossible. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: timothy motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 10:09 AM Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. If I remember right, Michael live in New Mexico. Could the dry air there be the reason why he has such problems with tuning in general and gut in particular? I'm an absolute newbie both as a player and a builder, but I have very few problems with gut on my lute. Unless I'm playing it, most of the time it sits in its case. And, as Kenneth Be has reminded me, museums are the perfect environments for lutes. Kenneth and I both work in museums, and I keep my lute in the office during the week so I can practice during my lunch break. But even at home my lute is pretty stable. It's only when I put it in the car and take it to my lessons that it shifts much. Tim Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:26:46 -0600 I have silver wound basses, and trebles and octaves are all nylgut with one carbon first string. My lute usually hangs on the wall where I play everyday, and would say it stays in tune remarkably well. But, I always need to fine tune it the next day, or an hour into my practice session. Also I replace the first 2 single strings, after 2 or 3 months because of indentations causing indentation problems The gut experience was horrific, I couldn't make it through one piece without having to stop and tune, This lasted for two months. Initially, the lute would go in tune and stay there fine, until I would begin to play, then moisture from my fingers seemed to cause it to constantly go out. I've always heard of great success stories with gut but, after talking to Paul Odette, he said guts impossible to use in concert settings with forced air heating and air conditioning. He uses nylgut. I
Re - Lute outreach/ tuning
Hi all, I sometimes take my lute into the office for a session in my break. It does bring it into reality for the people I work with who are amazed anyone can play so many strings and the delight of early music, unfamiliar to modern ears. The only problem I have is the office is much hotter than my home environment. All the wound-basses tighten up! I wait for it to acclimatise for an hour and slacken the basses. The Nylgut trebles seem to stay in tune. When I return home, I have to tune the basses back up when I want to practice. I check the tuning of all the strings about once a week, or sooner if one sounds a bit off. Best Wishes Ron UK -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Dear all Ed wrote: I have wondered if anyone had ever taken a lute out in flight played for passengers! Good show, Kenneth! Well, not in aeroplane, but a couple of times in train, 10-course and theorbo. Both got good comments, and especially the theorbo aroused lots of interest... And of course they asked the normal questions: How many strings, what does it cost... ;-) Once I had the theorbo sitting on the next seat in an aeroplane, in its case, and they asked what it would like to eat and drink... ;) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
I know that Mike Peterson and also Ronn McFarlane regularly play lute in airport departure lounges while waiting for their flights. I myself once took out my lute and played during a long and unexpected flight delay in Toronto. I was playing through a book of English popular tunes and suddenly found it humorous to be playing Loth to Depart - it was a new spin on flight delays! Several people, including otherwise bored stewardesses and pilots, stopped by to see what I was playing and asked questions. I overheard one captain exclaim to his co-pilot that's a lute! as they walked by! Kenneth -Original Message- From: Arto Wikla [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:27:00 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Dear all Ed wrote: I have wondered if anyone had ever taken a lute out in flight played for passengers! Good show, Kenneth! Well, not in aeroplane, but a couple of times in train, 10-course and theorbo. Both got good comments, and especially the theorbo aroused lots of interest... And of course they asked the normal questions: How many strings, what does it cost... ;-) Once I had the theorbo sitting on the next seat in an aeroplane, in its case, and they asked what it would like to eat and drink... ;) Arto -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Hi all, Some comments from custom officers I got - my archlute case is very plain... : Comment 1 -Poor kid.. Comment 2: That's a big violin you got... Alain To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Ed, Thanks for the thoughtful words of advice. I think gut was the best sound I'd ever heard on my lute, and the response and attack were outstanding. The tension was just right. I tried everything oiling the strings etc. However what Kenneth said about his tuning seemed right on. My strings are dry as a bone. I think where Eric lives out here is probably a mile lower than where I live and is more humid in general. My hands aren't really rough at all from shop work, and I usually sand my finger tips with 600 grit paper etc. I even use some violin resin on the tips to get a good grab on the string. But I think moisture is more the problem, in my case. Paul Odette was saying he uses nylgut because in essence there not smooth, and he can grab the string better. I told him I use bow resin, and he seemed interested in that idea a little. One of thesedays I'll try gut again. Another subject. I just ordered strings for a new 13 course lute from Chris Henriksen, does he take into account what you were saying concerning stepping up the diameter of nylgut to match the gut? If not what would you recommend in nylgut for a triple head Jauch main nut 73cm? BTW, I have a good friend who lives in Calif. and has a gig in Maui. He plays guitar and his wife plays violin. He tells me there are a couple of guitarist that play in a resort, every year, they take two weeks off, so my friend and his wife fly over from Calif. and take their place. They make $1200 a week. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; timothy motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 11:24 AM Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Michael, I think humidity has a great deal to do with all the problems with gut. I live in northern Minnesota, and gut is a problem in the summer, due to high humidity. So, I keep 1 instrument in synthetic strings for the summer months. Michael, I am sorry that you had such a miserable experience with gut. I used to find it wildly un tunable unstable, but for the past 9 years in gut, I have only had 2 bad tuning experiences. Unfortunately, one was last summer in Clevaland, at the LSA seminar, where Phil Rukavina I performed the Valderrabano duets in gut. We acclimated the instrument strings to air conditioning, but the AC was turned off due to noise, tuning problems started from as the temp humidity rose. The other problem was in Maui (yes, what a great gig! I was flown to Maui for 2 concerts in the winter).. I left Minnesota in winter, arrived in summer tropical climate. The baroque lute in gut took 4 days to even get it up to pitch! But, my vihuela, then in synthetics, had problems adjusting as well. Another point you brought up was the fingers .. some people must have oils or other substances on their fingers, they seem to be unable to handle gut, as it frays quickly, etc. I used to have this problem, but I find it manageable because I make certain I always wash my hands before picking up the instrument. Clean fingers make a difference. Also, I take care of my fingertips, making certain they are soft smooth. Rough finger tips tear into gut badly. Being a builder, are your hands rough? On other occasions, I have traveled toured using gut, it has been every bit as stable as synthetics, but I arrived at least a couple of days before the gig. But, if one flies to a concert performs that day, the climate change can make tuning a bit wacky. So, for a same-day concert, I would go with synthetics. Gut is not for everyone. It is a commitment in fantastic sound, with less compromise. lately, I am tempted to go back to synthetics, as it is much less fuss. ed At 10:44 AM 4/13/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: If I remember right, Michael live in New Mexico. Could the dry air there be the reason why he has such problems with tuning in general and gut in particular Timothy, excellent point! After reading Kenneth's account of his concert at 37,000 feet, and the confession that he couldn't keep the lute in tune, finally makes sense. My house sits at 7100 feet, and it's very dry here. The gut strings are probably dry as a bone to begin with, and as I've said the problem with in tuneness only happens as I begin to play, and introduce moisture from my fingers, on to the strings. This could also happen to a lesser degree with wound basses, and nylgut. My apologies to all. However here in Taos, what you all were saying seemed impossible. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: timothy motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 10:09 AM Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Back in January, I accompanied a Renaissance violin player on my cittern on the ferry to Bainbridge Island, across the sound from Seattle (we were on the way to a gig in Winslow). We made $17... Guy - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edumailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 12:55 PM Subject: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. I know that Mike Peterson and also Ronn McFarlane regularly play lute in airport departure lounges while waiting for their flights. I myself once took out my lute and played during a long and unexpected flight delay in Toronto. I was playing through a book of English popular tunes and suddenly found it humorous to be playing Loth to Depart - it was a new spin on flight delays! Several people, including otherwise bored stewardesses and pilots, stopped by to see what I was playing and asked questions. I overheard one captain exclaim to his co-pilot that's a lute! as they walked by! Kenneth -Original Message- From: Arto Wikla [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edumailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:27:00 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Dear all Ed wrote: I have wondered if anyone had ever taken a lute out in flight played for passengers! Good show, Kenneth! Well, not in aeroplane, but a couple of times in train, 10-course and theorbo. Both got good comments, and especially the theorbo aroused lots of interest... And of course they asked the normal questions: How many strings, what does it cost... ;-) Once I had the theorbo sitting on the next seat in an aeroplane, in its case, and they asked what it would like to eat and drink... ;) Arto -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htmlhttp://www.cs.dart mouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
My Hasenfuss- Weigert baroque is also factory tuned, as a gambist joking told me. I hardly ever need to tune , especially if I don't change keys or if the weather is not too wet. I use a mixture of Aquila and Pyramid strings. (Ok, hardly ever means every two, three days, but I've just had a wonderful wine with a dessert which is a specialty from Piedmont and I feel quite optimistic...) Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 7:52 PM Subject: Re: lute outreach 1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the 10-hour overnight ride to Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat in the morning. I didn't touch a peg for the rest of the weekend So let me get this straight, your saying over a three day period from NY. In different rooms, hotel, houses, concert hall etc. you didn't touch a peg other than your 11th course. You are either pitch challenged, or prone to spinning tall tales, most likely both! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:28 AM Subject: Re: lute outreach P.S. 2 interesting details: 1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the 10-hour overnight ride to Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat in the morning. I didn't touch a peg for the rest of the weekend. 2. Our program is on a controversial side, and it might (and should) have caused considerable consternation on the part of clergy of 4 denominations present (including an archbishop). But Mar'jana's act consisted largely from the songs she collected at the Carpathian fertility rites, which are basically Pagan, and outright scabrous. Imagine what was going on in celibate heads. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Donatella et Roman, I the use same mixture of Nylgut and Pyramid strings on my ten course and find that it stays in tune remarkably well, although I'm not that crazy about the sound of the pyramid basses on this instrument. Roman - have you found this tuning stability to be typical with carbon? I'm thinking of stringing my theorbo at least partially with it. Chris --- Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My Hasenfuss- Weigert baroque is also factory tuned, as a gambist joking told me. I hardly ever need to tune , especially if I don't change keys or if the weather is not too wet. I use a mixture of Aquila and Pyramid strings. (Ok, hardly ever means every two, three days, but I've just had a wonderful wine with a dessert which is a specialty from Piedmont and I feel quite optimistic...) Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 7:52 PM Subject: Re: lute outreach 1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the 10-hour overnight ride to Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat in the morning. I didn't touch a peg for the rest of the weekend So let me get this straight, your saying over a three day period from NY. In different rooms, hotel, houses, concert hall etc. you didn't touch a peg other than your 11th course. You are either pitch challenged, or prone to spinning tall tales, most likely both! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:28 AM Subject: Re: lute outreach P.S. 2 interesting details: 1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the 10-hour overnight ride to Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat in the morning. I didn't touch a peg for the rest of the weekend. 2. Our program is on a controversial side, and it might (and should) have caused considerable consternation on the part of clergy of 4 denominations present (including an archbishop). But Mar'jana's act consisted largely from the songs she collected at the Carpathian fertility rites, which are basically Pagan, and outright scabrous. Imagine what was going on in celibate heads. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
(Ok, hardly ever means every two, three days, but I've just had a wonderful wine with a dessert which is a specialty from Piedmont and I feel quite optimistic...) Donatella Hardly ever you are an honest soul. I use the same strings. I feel the Gods have smiled upon me, if I can make it two days without tuning, even if I make it to the second day, at some point in my 3 hours of practicing ,I have to tune something, no? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 12:44 PM Subject: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. My Hasenfuss- Weigert baroque is also factory tuned, as a gambist joking told me. I hardly ever need to tune , especially if I don't change keys or if the weather is not too wet. I use a mixture of Aquila and Pyramid strings. (Ok, hardly ever means every two, three days, but I've just had a wonderful wine with a dessert which is a specialty from Piedmont and I feel quite optimistic...) Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 7:52 PM Subject: Re: lute outreach 1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the 10-hour overnight ride to Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat in the morning. I didn't touch a peg for the rest of the weekend So let me get this straight, your saying over a three day period from NY. In different rooms, hotel, houses, concert hall etc. you didn't touch a peg other than your 11th course. You are either pitch challenged, or prone to spinning tall tales, most likely both! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:28 AM Subject: Re: lute outreach P.S. 2 interesting details: 1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the 10-hour overnight ride to Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat in the morning. I didn't touch a peg for the rest of the weekend. 2. Our program is on a controversial side, and it might (and should) have caused considerable consternation on the part of clergy of 4 denominations present (including an archbishop). But Mar'jana's act consisted largely from the songs she collected at the Carpathian fertility rites, which are basically Pagan, and outright scabrous. Imagine what was going on in celibate heads. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
I the use same mixture of Nylgut and Pyramid strings on my ten course and find that it stays in tune remarkably well, although I'm not that crazy about the sound of the pyramid basses on this instrument. Roman - have you found this tuning stability to be typical with carbon? I'm thinking of stringing my theorbo at least partially with it. Chris Yes. I have the courses 1-4 entirely in carbon, as well as most octaves. The fundamentals are Pyramids on 5-7, and the 8-13 are old copper Savarez. I like cold sound of carbon, and it combines well with voice. RT --- Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My Hasenfuss- Weigert baroque is also factory tuned, as a gambist joking told me. I hardly ever need to tune , especially if I don't change keys or if the weather is not too wet. I use a mixture of Aquila and Pyramid strings. (Ok, hardly ever means every two, three days, but I've just had a wonderful wine with a dessert which is a specialty from Piedmont and I feel quite optimistic...) Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 7:52 PM Subject: Re: lute outreach 1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the 10-hour overnight ride to Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat in the morning. I didn't touch a peg for the rest of the weekend So let me get this straight, your saying over a three day period from NY. In different rooms, hotel, houses, concert hall etc. you didn't touch a peg other than your 11th course. You are either pitch challenged, or prone to spinning tall tales, most likely both! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:28 AM Subject: Re: lute outreach P.S. 2 interesting details: 1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the 10-hour overnight ride to Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat in the morning. I didn't touch a peg for the rest of the weekend. 2. Our program is on a controversial side, and it might (and should) have caused considerable consternation on the part of clergy of 4 denominations present (including an archbishop). But Mar'jana's act consisted largely from the songs she collected at the Carpathian fertility rites, which are basically Pagan, and outright scabrous. Imagine what was going on in celibate heads. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Roman - have you found this tuning stability to be typical with carbon? I'm thinking of stringing my theorbo at least partially with it. Chris Yes. I have the courses 1-4 entirely in carbon, as well as most octaves. The fundamentals are Pyramids on 5-7, and the 8-13 are old copper Savarez. I like cold sound of carbon, and it combines well with voice. RT ps. My #6 is in unison. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
In this discussion, I have found similar instances when string stability has been wonderful. Sometimes, I leave an instrument in the case (all gut strung baroque lute), and after no attention for a few months, I open the lid to my astonishment, it is in remarkably good tune. This is the exception to the rule, but gut has a bad reputation. The newer strings are more stable, in my opinion. Either that, or we are learning how ti use it better than before. In terms of string stability, carbon takes the prize for being the most stable string ever produced. It seems as though it is absolutely impervious to temperature humidity. I stopped using carbon about 12 years ago, but prior to that, the saying was that a lutenist could apply crazy glue to the pegs, because those strings are so stable that they almost require no tuning after being totally stretched out. They were also durable, as I had a set on for around 9 years, without changing strings [even the trebles!], they retained the same sound trueness. So, if you want practicality (tuning stability, longevity of string life) go with carbon. But, as Roman suggested, it is a rather cold sounding string. It is loud and clear, as the high density increases its efficiency. Thomas has stated we are pitch challenged of lying about this, that it is impossible for an instrument to stay in tune after travel. I believe Roman and Kenneth, as we have all had similarly good tuning experiences. ed At 01:00 PM 4/12/2005 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Donatella et Roman, I the use same mixture of Nylgut and Pyramid strings on my ten course and find that it stays in tune remarkably well, although I'm not that crazy about the sound of the pyramid basses on this instrument. Roman - have you found this tuning stability to be typical with carbon? I'm thinking of stringing my theorbo at least partially with it. Chris --- Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My Hasenfuss- Weigert baroque is also factory tuned, as a gambist joking told me. I hardly ever need to tune , especially if I don't change keys or if the weather is not too wet. I use a mixture of Aquila and Pyramid strings. (Ok, hardly ever means every two, three days, but I've just had a wonderful wine with a dessert which is a specialty from Piedmont and I feel quite optimistic...) Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 7:52 PM Subject: Re: lute outreach 1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the 10-hour overnight ride to Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat in the morning. I didn't touch a peg for the rest of the weekend So let me get this straight, your saying over a three day period from NY. In different rooms, hotel, houses, concert hall etc. you didn't touch a peg other than your 11th course. You are either pitch challenged, or prone to spinning tall tales, most likely both! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:28 AM Subject: Re: lute outreach P.S. 2 interesting details: 1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the 10-hour overnight ride to Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat in the morning. I didn't touch a peg for the rest of the weekend. 2. Our program is on a controversial side, and it might (and should) have caused considerable consternation on the part of clergy of 4 denominations present (including an archbishop). But Mar'jana's act consisted largely from the songs she collected at the Carpathian fertility rites, which are basically Pagan, and outright scabrous. Imagine what was going on in celibate heads. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
almost require no tuning after being totally stretched out. They were also durable, as I had a set on for around 9 years, without changing strings [even the trebles!], they retained the same sound trueness. Then, I must be crazy, after only two weeks of playing I notice indentations were the frets wear the strings, this is called out of trueness , be they nylgut, or carbon, this will cause problems with intonation. Ed, as I recall you were one who was coaching me thru my first set of gut strings. Sorry to say everything you told me didn't seem to do the trick. I have one gut string on my lute at the 3rd course, because I broke a string. The gut has been a constant endless source of irritation. As all the other strings are fine. Most lutes in cases stay pretty well in tune, but I'm sorry our tolerances for in tuneness must be radically different from each other. 2 months in a case and you don't need to tune it, perhaps miracles do happen after all. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 4:09 PM Subject: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. In this discussion, I have found similar instances when string stability has been wonderful. Sometimes, I leave an instrument in the case (all gut strung baroque lute), and after no attention for a few months, I open the lid to my astonishment, it is in remarkably good tune. This is the exception to the rule, but gut has a bad reputation. The newer strings are more stable, in my opinion. Either that, or we are learning how ti use it better than before. In terms of string stability, carbon takes the prize for being the most stable string ever produced. It seems as though it is absolutely impervious to temperature humidity. I stopped using carbon about 12 years ago, but prior to that, the saying was that a lutenist could apply crazy glue to the pegs, because those strings are so stable that they almost require no tuning after being totally stretched out. They were also durable, as I had a set on for around 9 years, without changing strings [even the trebles!], they retained the same sound trueness. So, if you want practicality (tuning stability, longevity of string life) go with carbon. But, as Roman suggested, it is a rather cold sounding string. It is loud and clear, as the high density increases its efficiency. Thomas has stated we are pitch challenged of lying about this, that it is impossible for an instrument to stay in tune after travel. I believe Roman and Kenneth, as we have all had similarly good tuning experiences. ed At 01:00 PM 4/12/2005 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Donatella et Roman, I the use same mixture of Nylgut and Pyramid strings on my ten course and find that it stays in tune remarkably well, although I'm not that crazy about the sound of the pyramid basses on this instrument. Roman - have you found this tuning stability to be typical with carbon? I'm thinking of stringing my theorbo at least partially with it. Chris --- Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My Hasenfuss- Weigert baroque is also factory tuned, as a gambist joking told me. I hardly ever need to tune , especially if I don't change keys or if the weather is not too wet. I use a mixture of Aquila and Pyramid strings. (Ok, hardly ever means every two, three days, but I've just had a wonderful wine with a dessert which is a specialty from Piedmont and I feel quite optimistic...) Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 7:52 PM Subject: Re: lute outreach 1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the 10-hour overnight ride to Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat in the morning. I didn't touch a peg for the rest of the weekend So let me get this straight, your saying over a three day period from NY. In different rooms, hotel, houses, concert hall etc. you didn't touch a peg other than your 11th course. You are either pitch challenged, or prone to spinning tall tales, most likely both! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:28 AM Subject: Re: lute outreach P.S. 2 interesting details: 1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the 10-hour overnight ride to Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat in the morning. I didn't touch a peg for the rest of the weekend. 2. Our program
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Thames, has stated we are pitch challenged of lying about this, that it is impossible for an instrument to stay in tune after travel. I believe Roman and Kenneth, as we have all had similarly good tuning experiences Edward, I never said either you or Kenneth were lying, only Roman. You guys are just stepping easy with the tuning. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 4:09 PM Subject: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. In this discussion, I have found similar instances when string stability has been wonderful. Sometimes, I leave an instrument in the case (all gut strung baroque lute), and after no attention for a few months, I open the lid to my astonishment, it is in remarkably good tune. This is the exception to the rule, but gut has a bad reputation. The newer strings are more stable, in my opinion. Either that, or we are learning how ti use it better than before. In terms of string stability, carbon takes the prize for being the most stable string ever produced. It seems as though it is absolutely impervious to temperature humidity. I stopped using carbon about 12 years ago, but prior to that, the saying was that a lutenist could apply crazy glue to the pegs, because those strings are so stable that they almost require no tuning after being totally stretched out. They were also durable, as I had a set on for around 9 years, without changing strings [even the trebles!], they retained the same sound trueness. So, if you want practicality (tuning stability, longevity of string life) go with carbon. But, as Roman suggested, it is a rather cold sounding string. It is loud and clear, as the high density increases its efficiency. Thomas has stated we are pitch challenged of lying about this, that it is impossible for an instrument to stay in tune after travel. I believe Roman and Kenneth, as we have all had similarly good tuning experiences. ed At 01:00 PM 4/12/2005 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Donatella et Roman, I the use same mixture of Nylgut and Pyramid strings on my ten course and find that it stays in tune remarkably well, although I'm not that crazy about the sound of the pyramid basses on this instrument. Roman - have you found this tuning stability to be typical with carbon? I'm thinking of stringing my theorbo at least partially with it. Chris --- Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My Hasenfuss- Weigert baroque is also factory tuned, as a gambist joking told me. I hardly ever need to tune , especially if I don't change keys or if the weather is not too wet. I use a mixture of Aquila and Pyramid strings. (Ok, hardly ever means every two, three days, but I've just had a wonderful wine with a dessert which is a specialty from Piedmont and I feel quite optimistic...) Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 7:52 PM Subject: Re: lute outreach 1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the 10-hour overnight ride to Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat in the morning. I didn't touch a peg for the rest of the weekend So let me get this straight, your saying over a three day period from NY. In different rooms, hotel, houses, concert hall etc. you didn't touch a peg other than your 11th course. You are either pitch challenged, or prone to spinning tall tales, most likely both! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:28 AM Subject: Re: lute outreach P.S. 2 interesting details: 1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the 10-hour overnight ride to Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat in the morning. I didn't touch a peg for the rest of the weekend. 2. Our program is on a controversial side, and it might (and should) have caused considerable consternation on the part of clergy of 4 denominations present (including an archbishop). But Mar'jana's act consisted largely from the songs she collected at the Carpathian fertility rites, which are basically Pagan, and outright scabrous. Imagine what was going on in celibate heads. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Most lutes in cases stay pretty well in tune, but I'm sorry our tolerances for in tuneness must be radically different from each other. 2 months in a case and you don't need to tune it, perhaps miracles do happen after all. None of this qualifies as a miracle. A miracle would be when a luthier named Michael Thames realizes that daft insults do not generate lute orders. But I am not sure we should hold our collective breath. RT -- http://polyhymnion.org/torban To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
A miracle would be when a luthier named Michael Thames realizes that daft insults do not generate lute orders. But I am not sure we should hold our collective breath. RT Roman, I guess the issue is moot, now that I realize you need a tuneomatic to tune, nothing more needs to be said. Sorry I brought it up. After my wife and I won the NM state lottery last year, I'm really not concerned with lute orders. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 6:28 PM Subject: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Most lutes in cases stay pretty well in tune, but I'm sorry our tolerances for in tuneness must be radically different from each other. 2 months in a case and you don't need to tune it, perhaps miracles do happen after all. None of this qualifies as a miracle. A miracle would be when a luthier named Michael Thames realizes that daft insults do not generate lute orders. But I am not sure we should hold our collective breath. RT -- http://polyhymnion.org/torban To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
Then you may try to buy yourself a reputation. You could certainly afford one (if you find it for sale, maybe a second-hand one). RT As far as my reputation goes it's been well earned. There's only a hand full of luthiers in the world, who've made 600 guitars by hand. Your, kinda like that movie Jaws a shark that's programmed to constantly attack, prowling the ocean for anything to eat. So contrived, so, predictable. I hope you find rest. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 8:01 PM Subject: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. A miracle would be when a luthier named Michael Thames realizes that daft insults do not generate lute orders. But I am not sure we should hold our collective breath. RT Roman, I guess the issue is moot, now that I realize you need a tuneomatic to tune, nothing more needs to be said. Sorry I brought it up. After my wife and I won the NM state lottery last year, I'm really not concerned with lute orders. Michael Thames Then you may try to buy yourself a reputation. You could certainly afford one (if you find it for sale, maybe a second-hand one). RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Most lutes in cases stay pretty well in tune, but I'm sorry our tolerances for in tuneness must be radically different from each other. 2 months in a case and you don't need to tune it, perhaps miracles do happen after all. None of this qualifies as a miracle. A miracle would be when a luthier named Michael Thames realizes that daft insults do not generate lute orders. But I am not sure we should hold our collective breath. RT -- http://polyhymnion.org/torban To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute outreach -tuning..
As far as my reputation goes it's been well earned. There's only a hand full of luthiers in the world, who've made 600 guitars by hand. Again, I hope they have been made with the same attention to detail as your sentences. Yea, Yea, I heard you the first time. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:19 PM Subject: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Then you may try to buy yourself a reputation. You could certainly afford one (if you find it for sale, maybe a second-hand one). RT As far as my reputation goes it's been well earned. There's only a hand full of luthiers in the world, who've made 600 guitars by hand. Again, I hope they have been made with the same attention to detail as your sentences. Your, kinda like that movie Jaws a shark that's programmed to constantly attack, prowling the ocean for anything to eat. So contrived, so, predictable. I hope you find rest. There is little virtue in rest, if any at all. Anyway, it is definitely better to be a shark than a fluke. RT A miracle would be when a luthier named Michael Thames realizes that daft insults do not generate lute orders. But I am not sure we should hold our collective breath. RT Roman, I guess the issue is moot, now that I realize you need a tuneomatic to tune, nothing more needs to be said. Sorry I brought it up. After my wife and I won the NM state lottery last year, I'm really not concerned with lute orders. Michael Thames Then you may try to buy yourself a reputation. You could certainly afford one (if you find it for sale, maybe a second-hand one). RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Most lutes in cases stay pretty well in tune, but I'm sorry our tolerances for in tuneness must be radically different from each other. 2 months in a case and you don't need to tune it, perhaps miracles do happen after all. None of this qualifies as a miracle. A miracle would be when a luthier named Michael Thames realizes that daft insults do not generate lute orders. But I am not sure we should hold our collective breath. RT -- http://polyhymnion.org/torban To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
