Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
On 31.03.08, Michael Thompson wrote: On the question of screenshots, a) it bugs me that the illustrations are all in a serif font, which should never be used on a screen, unless it's maybe old courier. Well, we should provide at least one screenshot resembling the appearance of LyX out-of-the-box. I have found that WYSIWYG cretinism is at once so powerful and so superficial, that it is exploded as soon this simple distinction is made. This is the point of entry for getting regular people to grasp the difference between an editor and a typesetter. Even when I can't convince people to take up LyX or LaTeX, I at least convince them to use font substitution in Word ... with months of expressions of gratitude following. This should go to the gallery together with an explanation on how to achieve this in LyX. I suppose that in a screenshot the improved legibility will come out even clearer than in real life. b) Also the text is justified in the screenshots, which is conceptually regressive and medically dangerous, and violates every principle LyX stands for. The LyX UI is not a typesetter; Word is 1000x better at screen-typesetting than LyX; it is pure Word wannabe-ism) As far as I remember, left-justified text on screen with default-justified text in the printout can only be achieved by at least medium-advanced configuration and not without side-effects. Again this would be a good case for the gallery if well explained. (Making left-justified on-screen appearance a LyX default is another topic and of course the default screenshot should be updated as soon as possible if this is going to happen). c)It is obvious that the fancy mathematical illustrations come too soon, unless y'all are thinking of the TeX-using public as the principal market. As a physicist, I might be biased, but IMO math-support is one of the main advantages of LyX. However, I agree that complicated formulas have an detering effect on many people. One ought to have a few screens of simple documents that fit on the screen - AND the typeset version alongside them, no? Yes. With a link to the PDF version. By the way, I think that WYSIWYM is doubtful English. One should just say WYSIWYT(think). Why not WYSIWIT (what you see is what it is) or just leave it. The stress should be on you get more than you can see on screen in a WYSIWYG manner or mediengerechte Darstellung (media adapted appearance). Guenter
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
On 31.03.08, Michael Thompson wrote: On the question of screenshots, a) it bugs me that the illustrations are all in a serif font, which should never be used on a screen, unless it's maybe old courier. Well, we should provide at least one screenshot resembling the appearance of LyX out-of-the-box. I have found that WYSIWYG cretinism is at once so powerful and so superficial, that it is exploded as soon this simple distinction is made. This is the point of entry for getting regular people to grasp the difference between an editor and a typesetter. Even when I can't convince people to take up LyX or LaTeX, I at least convince them to use font substitution in Word ... with months of expressions of gratitude following. This should go to the gallery together with an explanation on how to achieve this in LyX. I suppose that in a screenshot the improved legibility will come out even clearer than in real life. b) Also the text is justified in the screenshots, which is conceptually regressive and medically dangerous, and violates every principle LyX stands for. The LyX UI is not a typesetter; Word is 1000x better at screen-typesetting than LyX; it is pure Word wannabe-ism) As far as I remember, left-justified text on screen with default-justified text in the printout can only be achieved by at least medium-advanced configuration and not without side-effects. Again this would be a good case for the gallery if well explained. (Making left-justified on-screen appearance a LyX default is another topic and of course the default screenshot should be updated as soon as possible if this is going to happen). c)It is obvious that the fancy mathematical illustrations come too soon, unless y'all are thinking of the TeX-using public as the principal market. As a physicist, I might be biased, but IMO math-support is one of the main advantages of LyX. However, I agree that complicated formulas have an detering effect on many people. One ought to have a few screens of simple documents that fit on the screen - AND the typeset version alongside them, no? Yes. With a link to the PDF version. By the way, I think that WYSIWYM is doubtful English. One should just say WYSIWYT(think). Why not WYSIWIT (what you see is what it is) or just leave it. The stress should be on you get more than you can see on screen in a WYSIWYG manner or mediengerechte Darstellung (media adapted appearance). Guenter
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
On 31.03.08, Michael Thompson wrote: > On the question of screenshots, > a) it bugs me that the illustrations are all in a serif font, > which should never be used on a screen, unless it's maybe old > courier. Well, we should provide at least one screenshot resembling the appearance of LyX out-of-the-box. > I have found that WYSIWYG cretinism is at once so powerful and so > superficial, that it is exploded as soon this simple distinction is > made. This is the point of entry for getting regular people to grasp > the difference between an editor and a typesetter. Even when I can't > convince people to take up LyX or LaTeX, I at least convince them to > use font substitution in Word ... with months of expressions of > gratitude following. This should go to the "gallery" together with an explanation on how to achieve this in LyX. I suppose that in a screenshot the improved legibility will come out even clearer than in real life. > b) Also the text is justified in the screenshots, which is > conceptually regressive and medically dangerous, and violates > every principle LyX stands for. The LyX UI is not a typesetter; > Word is 1000x better at screen-typesetting than LyX; it is > pure Word wannabe-ism) As far as I remember, left-justified text on screen with default-justified text in the printout can only be achieved by at least medium-advanced configuration and not without side-effects. Again this would be a good case for the "gallery" if well explained. (Making left-justified on-screen appearance a LyX default is another topic and of course the "default" screenshot should be updated as soon as possible if this is going to happen). > c)It is obvious that the fancy mathematical illustrations come > too soon, unless y'all are thinking of the TeX-using public as > the principal market. As a physicist, I might be biased, but IMO math-support is one of the main advantages of LyX. However, I agree that complicated formulas have an detering effect on many people. > One ought to have a few screens of simple > documents that fit on the screen - AND the typeset version > alongside them, no? Yes. With a link to the PDF version. > By the way, I think that WYSIWYM is doubtful > English. One should just say WYSIWYT(think). Why not WYSIWIT (what you see is what it is) or just leave it. The stress should be on "you get more than you can see on screen in a WYSIWYG manner" or "mediengerechte Darstellung" (media adapted appearance). Guenter
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
Paul A. Rubin wrote: Looks very nice. I have a few minor suggestions, mostly pertaining to the home page: 1. I would include the word license in the link to the license. Currently only Free Software / Open Source is highlighted, so it's slightly unclear whether this is a link to the actual license or just to a definition of FOSS. 2. I suggest a direct link to the visual tour, or at least the screenshots, in the left margin. When I'm shopping for software, that's usually one of the first things I seek out, and I'll sometimes not bother poking around a site if I can't see screenshots early on. 3. Should we provide output samples (DVI, PDF) somewhere (under About LyX or Visual Tour)? Non-LaTeX-users might not know what they're getting. 4. I suggest that several languages at the bottom of the home page link to either the somewhat maligned translation page or just a list of currently supported languages. Overall, I think it's a great job. /Paul Paul, I think those are great suggestions. What do you suggest for the visual tour aspect? Just to sum up, currently there is a link on the sidebar that says Visual Tour. When the user clicks there, he/she gets links to the three different Visual Tour-type things that have been created: Screencasts, Screenshots, and Walkthrough. I included one screenshot below those links for the instant gratification of visitors. I was thinking of just choosing one visual introduction (i.e. the most impressive one) to link to from the sidebar, but then people might not ever see the other stuff. What do you think? By the way, if anyone has or can make a series of screenshots using a recent version of LyX, that would be really cool. Rex
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
Rex C. Eastbourne wrote: 2. I suggest a direct link to the visual tour, or at least the screenshots, in the left margin. When I'm shopping for software, that's usually one of the first things I seek out, and I'll sometimes not bother poking around a site if I can't see screenshots early on. I think those are great suggestions. What do you suggest for the visual tour aspect? Just to sum up, currently there is a link on the sidebar that says Visual Tour. Was that there before? Can't believe I missed it. When the user clicks there, he/she gets links to the three different Visual Tour-type things that have been created: Screencasts, Screenshots, and Walkthrough. I included one screenshot below those links for the instant gratification of visitors. I was thinking of just choosing one visual introduction (i.e. the most impressive one) to link to from the sidebar, but then people might not ever see the other stuff. What do you think? I think the current setup is fine. At the risk of redundancy, it might be worth including a direct link to the screenshots on the left of the main page, under the visual tour link. Arriving at the home page, I might interpret visual tour as lengthy Flash demo, and I'm reluctant to spend time watching a video unless I'm pretty sure I'm interested in the program -- which I confirm partly by looking at screenshots. But I may be atypical in that regard. /Paul
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
Paul A. Rubin schrieb: Rex C. Eastbourne wrote: [...] What do you suggest for the visual tour aspect? Just to sum up, currently there is a link on the sidebar that says Visual Tour. [...] I think the current setup is fine. At the risk of redundancy, it might be worth including a direct link to the screenshots on the left of the main page, under the visual tour link. Arriving at the home page, I might interpret visual tour as lengthy Flash demo, and I'm reluctant to spend time watching a video unless I'm pretty sure I'm interested in the program -- which I confirm partly by looking at screenshots. But I may be atypical in that regard. I think most users look for screenshot or screenshots, so I would agree with you, Paul. Regards, Dominik.-
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
Man, the website is amazing! I just wish the cool playground block letters of the old website could replace this incoherent three lets-have-fun-colors + Times Roman silliness. On the question of screenshots, a) it bugs me that the illustrations are all in a serif font, which should never be used on a screen, unless it's maybe old courier. I have found that WYSIWYG cretinism is at once so powerful and so superficial, that it is exploded as soon this simple distinction is made. This is the point of entry for getting regular people to grasp the difference between an editor and a typesetter. Even when I can't convince people to take up LyX or LaTeX, I at least convince them to use font substitution in Word ... with months of expressions of gratitude following. b) Also the text is justified in the screenshots, which is conceptually regressive and medically dangerous, and violates every principle LyX stands for. The LyX UI is not a typesetter; Word is 1000x better at screen-typesetting than LyX; it is pure Word wannabe-ism) c)It is obvious that the fancy mathematical illustrations come too soon, unless y'all are thinking of the TeX-using public as the principal market. One ought to have a few screens of simple documents that fit on the screen - AND the typeset version alongside them, no? Here's a couple of examples I sent to a friend. Actually the LyX screen doesn't show the whole document, but one gets the idea. ((Pay no attention to the content of the would-have-been class handout!)) http://www.pitt.edu/~mthompso/lyx.ui.example.png http://www.pitt.edu/~mthompso/lyx.typeset.example.png best, Michael T ((Maybe what I am really thinking of is a second link to screenshots in which the WYSIWYG v. WYSIWYM contrast is developed. By the way, I think that WYSIWYM is doubtful English. One should just say WYSIWYT(think). WYSIWYT is what I experienced in wordperfect 5.1 which I continued to use til two years ago, not capable of writing a damn thing in Word, though I couldnt understand why til I hit the Wikipedia page on LyX... Incredibly, I used Word, not Latex, as my typesetting engine.))
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
On the question of screenshots, a) it bugs me that the illustrations are all in a serif font, which should never be used on a screen, unless it's maybe old courier. Michael, feel free to re-create pictures in screenshot section and/or graphical tour. the screenshots you sent are fine, just use standard colors and composition of toolbars. pavel
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
Michael, feel free to re-create pictures in screenshot section and/or graphical tour. the screenshots you sent are fine, just use standard colors and composition of toolbars. pavel Sorry, the lyx background was the strong light, back porch version, which looks pretty goofy. I have been studying the tour and screenshot bits, thinking how I could make a better pitch to my fellow technical idiots.
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
Paul A. Rubin wrote: Looks very nice. I have a few minor suggestions, mostly pertaining to the home page: 1. I would include the word license in the link to the license. Currently only Free Software / Open Source is highlighted, so it's slightly unclear whether this is a link to the actual license or just to a definition of FOSS. 2. I suggest a direct link to the visual tour, or at least the screenshots, in the left margin. When I'm shopping for software, that's usually one of the first things I seek out, and I'll sometimes not bother poking around a site if I can't see screenshots early on. 3. Should we provide output samples (DVI, PDF) somewhere (under About LyX or Visual Tour)? Non-LaTeX-users might not know what they're getting. 4. I suggest that several languages at the bottom of the home page link to either the somewhat maligned translation page or just a list of currently supported languages. Overall, I think it's a great job. /Paul Paul, I think those are great suggestions. What do you suggest for the visual tour aspect? Just to sum up, currently there is a link on the sidebar that says Visual Tour. When the user clicks there, he/she gets links to the three different Visual Tour-type things that have been created: Screencasts, Screenshots, and Walkthrough. I included one screenshot below those links for the instant gratification of visitors. I was thinking of just choosing one visual introduction (i.e. the most impressive one) to link to from the sidebar, but then people might not ever see the other stuff. What do you think? By the way, if anyone has or can make a series of screenshots using a recent version of LyX, that would be really cool. Rex
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
Rex C. Eastbourne wrote: 2. I suggest a direct link to the visual tour, or at least the screenshots, in the left margin. When I'm shopping for software, that's usually one of the first things I seek out, and I'll sometimes not bother poking around a site if I can't see screenshots early on. I think those are great suggestions. What do you suggest for the visual tour aspect? Just to sum up, currently there is a link on the sidebar that says Visual Tour. Was that there before? Can't believe I missed it. When the user clicks there, he/she gets links to the three different Visual Tour-type things that have been created: Screencasts, Screenshots, and Walkthrough. I included one screenshot below those links for the instant gratification of visitors. I was thinking of just choosing one visual introduction (i.e. the most impressive one) to link to from the sidebar, but then people might not ever see the other stuff. What do you think? I think the current setup is fine. At the risk of redundancy, it might be worth including a direct link to the screenshots on the left of the main page, under the visual tour link. Arriving at the home page, I might interpret visual tour as lengthy Flash demo, and I'm reluctant to spend time watching a video unless I'm pretty sure I'm interested in the program -- which I confirm partly by looking at screenshots. But I may be atypical in that regard. /Paul
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
Paul A. Rubin schrieb: Rex C. Eastbourne wrote: [...] What do you suggest for the visual tour aspect? Just to sum up, currently there is a link on the sidebar that says Visual Tour. [...] I think the current setup is fine. At the risk of redundancy, it might be worth including a direct link to the screenshots on the left of the main page, under the visual tour link. Arriving at the home page, I might interpret visual tour as lengthy Flash demo, and I'm reluctant to spend time watching a video unless I'm pretty sure I'm interested in the program -- which I confirm partly by looking at screenshots. But I may be atypical in that regard. I think most users look for screenshot or screenshots, so I would agree with you, Paul. Regards, Dominik.-
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
Man, the website is amazing! I just wish the cool playground block letters of the old website could replace this incoherent three lets-have-fun-colors + Times Roman silliness. On the question of screenshots, a) it bugs me that the illustrations are all in a serif font, which should never be used on a screen, unless it's maybe old courier. I have found that WYSIWYG cretinism is at once so powerful and so superficial, that it is exploded as soon this simple distinction is made. This is the point of entry for getting regular people to grasp the difference between an editor and a typesetter. Even when I can't convince people to take up LyX or LaTeX, I at least convince them to use font substitution in Word ... with months of expressions of gratitude following. b) Also the text is justified in the screenshots, which is conceptually regressive and medically dangerous, and violates every principle LyX stands for. The LyX UI is not a typesetter; Word is 1000x better at screen-typesetting than LyX; it is pure Word wannabe-ism) c)It is obvious that the fancy mathematical illustrations come too soon, unless y'all are thinking of the TeX-using public as the principal market. One ought to have a few screens of simple documents that fit on the screen - AND the typeset version alongside them, no? Here's a couple of examples I sent to a friend. Actually the LyX screen doesn't show the whole document, but one gets the idea. ((Pay no attention to the content of the would-have-been class handout!)) http://www.pitt.edu/~mthompso/lyx.ui.example.png http://www.pitt.edu/~mthompso/lyx.typeset.example.png best, Michael T ((Maybe what I am really thinking of is a second link to screenshots in which the WYSIWYG v. WYSIWYM contrast is developed. By the way, I think that WYSIWYM is doubtful English. One should just say WYSIWYT(think). WYSIWYT is what I experienced in wordperfect 5.1 which I continued to use til two years ago, not capable of writing a damn thing in Word, though I couldnt understand why til I hit the Wikipedia page on LyX... Incredibly, I used Word, not Latex, as my typesetting engine.))
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
On the question of screenshots, a) it bugs me that the illustrations are all in a serif font, which should never be used on a screen, unless it's maybe old courier. Michael, feel free to re-create pictures in screenshot section and/or graphical tour. the screenshots you sent are fine, just use standard colors and composition of toolbars. pavel
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
Michael, feel free to re-create pictures in screenshot section and/or graphical tour. the screenshots you sent are fine, just use standard colors and composition of toolbars. pavel Sorry, the lyx background was the strong light, back porch version, which looks pretty goofy. I have been studying the tour and screenshot bits, thinking how I could make a better pitch to my fellow technical idiots.
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
Paul A. Rubin wrote: Looks very nice. I have a few minor suggestions, mostly pertaining to the home page: 1. I would include the word "license" in the link to the license. Currently only "Free Software / Open Source" is highlighted, so it's slightly unclear whether this is a link to the actual license or just to a definition of FOSS. 2. I suggest a direct link to the visual tour, or at least the screenshots, in the left margin. When I'm shopping for software, that's usually one of the first things I seek out, and I'll sometimes not bother poking around a site if I can't see screenshots early on. 3. Should we provide output samples (DVI, PDF) somewhere (under About LyX or Visual Tour)? Non-LaTeX-users might not know what they're getting. 4. I suggest that "several languages" at the bottom of the home page link to either the somewhat maligned translation page or just a list of currently supported languages. Overall, I think it's a great job. /Paul Paul, I think those are great suggestions. What do you suggest for the "visual tour" aspect? Just to sum up, currently there is a link on the sidebar that says "Visual Tour." When the user clicks there, he/she gets links to the three different "Visual Tour"-type things that have been created: Screencasts, Screenshots, and Walkthrough. I included one screenshot below those links for the instant gratification of visitors. I was thinking of just choosing one visual introduction (i.e. the most impressive one) to link to from the sidebar, but then people might not ever see the other stuff. What do you think? By the way, if anyone has or can make a series of screenshots using a recent version of LyX, that would be really cool. Rex
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
Rex C. Eastbourne wrote: 2. I suggest a direct link to the visual tour, or at least the screenshots, in the left margin. When I'm shopping for software, that's usually one of the first things I seek out, and I'll sometimes not bother poking around a site if I can't see screenshots early on. I think those are great suggestions. What do you suggest for the "visual tour" aspect? Just to sum up, currently there is a link on the sidebar that says "Visual Tour." Was that there before? Can't believe I missed it. When the user clicks there, he/she gets links to the three different "Visual Tour"-type things that have been created: Screencasts, Screenshots, and Walkthrough. I included one screenshot below those links for the instant gratification of visitors. I was thinking of just choosing one visual introduction (i.e. the most impressive one) to link to from the sidebar, but then people might not ever see the other stuff. What do you think? I think the current setup is fine. At the risk of redundancy, it might be worth including a direct link to the screenshots on the left of the main page, under the visual tour link. Arriving at the home page, I might interpret "visual tour" as "lengthy Flash demo", and I'm reluctant to spend time watching a video unless I'm pretty sure I'm interested in the program -- which I confirm partly by looking at screenshots. But I may be atypical in that regard. /Paul
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
Paul A. Rubin schrieb: > Rex C. Eastbourne wrote: >> >> [...] >> What do you suggest for the "visual tour" aspect? Just to sum up, >> currently there is a link on the sidebar that says "Visual Tour." > > [...] > I think the current setup is fine. At the risk of redundancy, it might > be worth including a direct link to the screenshots on the left of the > main page, under the visual tour link. Arriving at the home page, I > might interpret "visual tour" as "lengthy Flash demo", and I'm reluctant > to spend time watching a video unless I'm pretty sure I'm interested in > the program -- which I confirm partly by looking at screenshots. But I > may be atypical in that regard. I think most users look for "screenshot" or "screenshots", so I would agree with you, Paul. Regards, Dominik.-
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
Man, the website is amazing! I just wish the cool playground block letters of the old website could replace this incoherent three lets-have-fun-colors + Times Roman silliness. On the question of screenshots, a) it bugs me that the illustrations are all in a serif font, which should never be used on a screen, unless it's maybe old courier. I have found that WYSIWYG cretinism is at once so powerful and so superficial, that it is exploded as soon this simple distinction is made. This is the point of entry for getting regular people to grasp the difference between an editor and a typesetter. Even when I can't convince people to take up LyX or LaTeX, I at least convince them to use font substitution in Word ... with months of expressions of gratitude following. b) Also the text is justified in the screenshots, which is conceptually regressive and medically dangerous, and violates every principle LyX stands for. The LyX UI is not a typesetter; Word is 1000x better at screen-typesetting than LyX; it is pure Word wannabe-ism) c)It is obvious that the fancy mathematical illustrations come too soon, unless y'all are thinking of the TeX-using public as the principal market. One ought to have a few screens of simple documents that fit on the screen - AND the typeset version alongside them, no? Here's a couple of examples I sent to a friend. Actually the LyX screen doesn't show the whole document, but one gets the idea. ((Pay no attention to the content of the would-have-been class handout!)) http://www.pitt.edu/~mthompso/lyx.ui.example.png http://www.pitt.edu/~mthompso/lyx.typeset.example.png best, Michael T ((Maybe what I am really thinking of is a second link to screenshots in which the WYSIWYG v. WYSIWYM contrast is developed. By the way, I think that WYSIWYM is doubtful English. One should just say WYSIWYT(think). WYSIWYT is what I experienced in wordperfect 5.1 which I continued to use til two years ago, not capable of writing a damn thing in Word, though I couldnt understand why til I hit the Wikipedia page on LyX... Incredibly, I used Word, not Latex, as my "typesetting engine".))
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
> On the question of screenshots, > > a) it bugs me that the illustrations are all in a serif font, > which should never be used on a screen, unless it's maybe old > courier. Michael, feel free to re-create pictures in screenshot section and/or graphical tour. the screenshots you sent are fine, just use standard colors and composition of toolbars. pavel
Re: Visual Tour (Was: New LyX website)
> Michael, feel free to re-create pictures in screenshot section and/or > graphical tour. the screenshots you sent are fine, just use standard > colors and composition of toolbars. > > pavel > Sorry, the lyx background was the strong light, back porch version, which looks pretty goofy. I have been studying the tour and screenshot bits, thinking how I could make a better pitch to my fellow technical idiots.
