Re: tabular lines/borders yet again (was: Re: another (?) table-editing bug)
Sven Schreiber wrote: Well the result seems to be that nothing is happening. Don't get me wrong, I have no right to demand any serious development work for free, but then IMHO less conservatism with respect to the (easily changeable, I assume) defaults is needed. I mean almost everybody seems to agree that an all-lines-table as default is not good. Everybody agrees. The reason why the default was not changed was twofold: Almost everybody wanted something else. There was no clear favorite. The other reason was that it is bad practice to change the UI two times in a short time. If you want progress with this then please think how a configurable system could work. That does not need any coding in the first step. I am almost sure that the result will be based on some GUI for creating the default, and a lyxrc setting or configuration file or template document or whatever where the actual default is stored. Once we are at this point it will be easy to implement at least the part that loads the configuration and change the table dialog to use it, so people who are really annoyed by the current default just need to fire up their text editor and can change it. A GUI for comfortably changing these things can still be done later. And of course you can compile LyX yourself and simply change the default in your private version, but I would prefer if you took the time and think about the better solution. Georg
Re: tabular lines/borders yet again (was: Re: another (?) table-editing bug)
Sven Schreiber wrote: [topic shifted from bug to user interface, so I'm starting a new thread] Helge Hafting schrieb: Btw, some time ago somebody suggested to let lyx create new tabulars without any lines by default. I think that's a great idea. That can't be so difficult to implement, right? Do we need a vote? There were much discussion - and simply changing lyx to no-line tabulars was turned down for changing default behaviour. I tried to search the devel archives (not very easy actually) and found many people in favor of no lines, and essentially only Lars (lgb) being cautious. SNIP Lars, excuse me to bother you, but why exactly do you think that changing these defaults is bad? Do you know of many users that fiercely demand their vertical lines? SNIP May I also point you to the discussion that happened on the user list (shortly after the one on the dev list)? http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-users@lists.lyx.org/msg48442.html Also as was stated in the following two messages, and I think in the message you were replying to, an either or of lines/nolines as default is a ~50% split. I would think any dev who wanted to remain _mostly_ sane in such a situation would stick with the trouble s/he knows than to change a default, until a better solution is actually implemented, as with the annoyance s/he knows it is easer to just point to bug# and say _someone may_ work on it than to start fielding questions from the other camp. http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-users@lists.lyx.org/msg48455.html http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-users@lists.lyx.org/msg48464.html So if there is someone with the skill, inclination and time perhaps the easiest _half_ baked solution would be to make a lyxrc.defaults file item which indicates '\tabular_lines_on true|false' and test for that setting to run either the current default tabular create function or the new no line tabular create function. The above is only my opinion, and I am only a, sometimes _mostly_ sane, developer of _other_ software. :) -- Todd Denniston Crane Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWC Crane) Harnessing the Power of Technology for the Warfighter
Re: tabular lines/borders yet again (was: Re: another (?) table-editing bug)
Georg Baum wrote: If you want progress with this then please think how a configurable system could work. That does not need any coding in the first step. I am almost sure that the result will be based on some GUI for creating the default, and a lyxrc setting or configuration file or template document or whatever where the actual default is stored. How about adding a new dialog (Table Options) to Document-Settings... The table dialog could let you configure a default table layout by example. (I'm assuming here, perhaps rashly, that it would not be hard to put an adjustable table in the dialog.) Using the same types of buttons currently used on the table tool bar, the user selects the default number of rows/columns and the default borders. The default layout is stored with other preferences. I'm not sure the best way to store the layout, because I haven't attempted to locate and read the code for changing table specifications. Letting the user specify the default by example should handle the lack of unanimity on what the default should be. For the people reluctant to change a default, the answer would be to have the default set at installation be what it is now (5x5 fully lined). Always happy to make work for others, /Paul
Re: tabular lines/borders yet again (was: Re: another (?) table-editing bug)
Sven Schreiber wrote: Well the result seems to be that nothing is happening. Don't get me wrong, I have no right to demand any serious development work for free, but then IMHO less conservatism with respect to the (easily changeable, I assume) defaults is needed. I mean almost everybody seems to agree that an all-lines-table as default is not good. Everybody agrees. The reason why the default was not changed was twofold: Almost everybody wanted something else. There was no clear favorite. The other reason was that it is bad practice to change the UI two times in a short time. If you want progress with this then please think how a configurable system could work. That does not need any coding in the first step. I am almost sure that the result will be based on some GUI for creating the default, and a lyxrc setting or configuration file or template document or whatever where the actual default is stored. Once we are at this point it will be easy to implement at least the part that loads the configuration and change the table dialog to use it, so people who are really annoyed by the current default just need to fire up their text editor and can change it. A GUI for comfortably changing these things can still be done later. And of course you can compile LyX yourself and simply change the default in your private version, but I would prefer if you took the time and think about the better solution. Georg
Re: tabular lines/borders yet again (was: Re: another (?) table-editing bug)
Sven Schreiber wrote: [topic shifted from bug to user interface, so I'm starting a new thread] Helge Hafting schrieb: Btw, some time ago somebody suggested to let lyx create new tabulars without any lines by default. I think that's a great idea. That can't be so difficult to implement, right? Do we need a vote? There were much discussion - and simply changing lyx to no-line tabulars was turned down for changing default behaviour. I tried to search the devel archives (not very easy actually) and found many people in favor of no lines, and essentially only Lars (lgb) being cautious. SNIP Lars, excuse me to bother you, but why exactly do you think that changing these defaults is bad? Do you know of many users that fiercely demand their vertical lines? SNIP May I also point you to the discussion that happened on the user list (shortly after the one on the dev list)? http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-users@lists.lyx.org/msg48442.html Also as was stated in the following two messages, and I think in the message you were replying to, an either or of lines/nolines as default is a ~50% split. I would think any dev who wanted to remain _mostly_ sane in such a situation would stick with the trouble s/he knows than to change a default, until a better solution is actually implemented, as with the annoyance s/he knows it is easer to just point to bug# and say _someone may_ work on it than to start fielding questions from the other camp. http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-users@lists.lyx.org/msg48455.html http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-users@lists.lyx.org/msg48464.html So if there is someone with the skill, inclination and time perhaps the easiest _half_ baked solution would be to make a lyxrc.defaults file item which indicates '\tabular_lines_on true|false' and test for that setting to run either the current default tabular create function or the new no line tabular create function. The above is only my opinion, and I am only a, sometimes _mostly_ sane, developer of _other_ software. :) -- Todd Denniston Crane Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWC Crane) Harnessing the Power of Technology for the Warfighter
Re: tabular lines/borders yet again (was: Re: another (?) table-editing bug)
Georg Baum wrote: If you want progress with this then please think how a configurable system could work. That does not need any coding in the first step. I am almost sure that the result will be based on some GUI for creating the default, and a lyxrc setting or configuration file or template document or whatever where the actual default is stored. How about adding a new dialog (Table Options) to Document-Settings... The table dialog could let you configure a default table layout by example. (I'm assuming here, perhaps rashly, that it would not be hard to put an adjustable table in the dialog.) Using the same types of buttons currently used on the table tool bar, the user selects the default number of rows/columns and the default borders. The default layout is stored with other preferences. I'm not sure the best way to store the layout, because I haven't attempted to locate and read the code for changing table specifications. Letting the user specify the default by example should handle the lack of unanimity on what the default should be. For the people reluctant to change a default, the answer would be to have the default set at installation be what it is now (5x5 fully lined). Always happy to make work for others, /Paul
Re: tabular lines/borders yet again (was: Re: another (?) table-editing bug)
Sven Schreiber wrote: > Well the result seems to be that nothing is happening. Don't get me > wrong, I have no right to demand any serious development work for free, > but then IMHO less conservatism with respect to the (easily changeable, > I assume) defaults is needed. I mean almost everybody seems to agree > that an all-lines-table as default is not good. Everybody agrees. The reason why the default was not changed was twofold: Almost everybody wanted something else. There was no clear favorite. The other reason was that it is bad practice to change the UI two times in a short time. If you want progress with this then please think how a configurable system could work. That does not need any coding in the first step. I am almost sure that the result will be based on some GUI for creating the default, and a lyxrc setting or configuration file or template document or whatever where the actual default is stored. Once we are at this point it will be easy to implement at least the part that loads the configuration and change the table dialog to use it, so people who are really annoyed by the current default just need to fire up their text editor and can change it. A GUI for comfortably changing these things can still be done later. And of course you can compile LyX yourself and simply change the default in your private version, but I would prefer if you took the time and think about the better solution. Georg
Re: tabular lines/borders yet again (was: Re: another (?) table-editing bug)
Sven Schreiber wrote: [topic shifted from bug to user interface, so I'm starting a new thread] Helge Hafting schrieb: Btw, some time ago somebody suggested to let lyx create new tabulars without any lines by default. I think that's a great idea. That can't be so difficult to implement, right? Do we need a vote? There were much discussion - and simply changing lyx to no-line tabulars was turned down for "changing default behaviour". I tried to search the devel archives (not very easy actually) and found many people in favor of no lines, and essentially only Lars (lgb) being cautious. Lars, excuse me to bother you, but why exactly do you think that changing these defaults is bad? Do you know of many users that fiercely demand their vertical lines? May I also point you to the discussion that happened on the user list (shortly after the one on the dev list)? http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-users@lists.lyx.org/msg48442.html Also as was stated in the following two messages, and I think in the message you were replying to, an either or of lines/nolines as default is a ~50% split. I would think any dev who wanted to remain _mostly_ sane in such a situation would stick with the trouble s/he knows than to change a default, until a better solution is actually implemented, as with the annoyance s/he knows it is easer to just point to bug# and say _someone may_ work on it than to start fielding questions from the other camp. http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-users@lists.lyx.org/msg48455.html http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-users@lists.lyx.org/msg48464.html So if there is someone with the skill, inclination and time perhaps the easiest _half_ baked solution would be to make a lyxrc.defaults file item which indicates '\tabular_lines_on true|false' and test for that setting to run either the current default tabular create function or the new no line tabular create function. The above is only my opinion, and I am only a, sometimes _mostly_ sane, developer of _other_ software. :) -- Todd Denniston Crane Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWC Crane) Harnessing the Power of Technology for the Warfighter
Re: tabular lines/borders yet again (was: Re: another (?) table-editing bug)
Georg Baum wrote: If you want progress with this then please think how a configurable system could work. That does not need any coding in the first step. I am almost sure that the result will be based on some GUI for creating the default, and a lyxrc setting or configuration file or template document or whatever where the actual default is stored. How about adding a new dialog (Table Options) to Document->Settings... The table dialog could let you configure a default table layout by example. (I'm assuming here, perhaps rashly, that it would not be hard to put an adjustable table in the dialog.) Using the same types of buttons currently used on the table tool bar, the user selects the default number of rows/columns and the default borders. The default layout is stored with other preferences. I'm not sure the best way to store the layout, because I haven't attempted to locate and read the code for changing table specifications. Letting the user specify the default by example should handle the lack of unanimity on what the default should be. For the people reluctant to change a default, the answer would be to have the default set at installation be what it is now (5x5 fully lined). Always happy to make work for others, /Paul
