Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
ext Kees Jongenburger wrote: The community itself is not organized in what can we do to achieve xyz. they and I expect zyx to be maemo.org. They might even think : if maemo.org behaves like xyz THEY would be doing the right thing. it is not exactly easy to currently do anything for maemo.org (rember the bus where you are not the driver?). Are we missing a strong community leader? There is something missing, but I think it is more a matter of common understanding. It would be silly from Nokia's side to push business reasons in the maemo project without considering a sustainable approach to the free software community needs. But it is not much more clever from the community side to push software freedom reasons without considering a sustainable approach to the business company needs. maemo is expected by some people to be 100% free, and this is a fair and challenging goal. maemo is also expected by some people to beat the competition so the coolest OSS developers decide to invest their time, skills and attention in this project - which is also a fair and challenging goal. In addition to this, Nokia expects to make a sustainable/profitable business around the maemo platform and compatible devices. It is perhaps just a coincidence that those betting on 100% of software freedom as a guarantee of commercial success are not the ones making the big investment hiring a team and shipping devices. It's always easier to say change your business when you have no money invested in it. So please, relax and try to understand also the other side. Nokia is betting more in open source today than yesterday, and tomorrow more than today. Glacial speed? Depends how you look at it. A lot has been done between the 770 launch 3 years ago and today, even in terms of open source strategy. Unsatisfied about the speed and/or about the lack of a 100% freedom software delivered by Nokia? You can provide the speed and full scope yourselves, asking Nokia to remove any obstacles in your way. In the meantime we will keep trying shipping software, development platform and devices exciting not only the open source community but many more people out there. In fact you also want us to do so. -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source maemo software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
Hi Quim, you said In addition to this, Nokia expects to make a sustainable/profitable business around the maemo platform and compatible devices. Exactly, so there is no other way to solve that problem not hurting developers but to enter into the Global Alliance on Free Software/ Open Source Free Software New Global Open Source Alliance by corporations, developers, IP protection international organizations, patent offices (USPTO, Europeannbsp; Patent Office ...), Free Software Foundation, Microsoft, TomTom, Apple and Linux giants as well as others to discuss nd find the solution to have both corporate's and developer's business protected and have developer's IPs protected anyway. Nokia's corporate business is not exactly the business of developers working for free to let Nokia make business and generate profit. Maemo is to much about poetry, philosophy and business strategies. I remember, when I asked for the first time, who stayed for maemo.org Nobody was able to say - it was Nokia. Today we have a new business model (subject to patent application or already patented). Corporations setting up Internet communities, to have free workers working on projects set up by the corportions. I joined another community of developers and some guys come from a business corporation, developing the same project/s and some get founding from other organizations too. It's not bad as long as everyone is fully aware of his/her role and knows business terms in advance, before joining in. Working for free is not bad idea for students. But working for free for businesses to make final market product is really special idea subject to urgent discussion. One questions should be answered. Do developers need Nokia to develop their open soruce free software or does Nokia need developers to develop maemo platform commercial product. Global Alliance on Open Source Software forum is open, you are free to read, post, join, comment, send your proposals Group email [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone (+48) 886 424 624 Darius Global Alliance on Open Source Software http://groups.google.com/group/globalalliance4u?hl=en --- On Fri, 6/6/08, Quim Gil lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; wrote: From: Quim Gil lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Subject: Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008 To: ext Kees Jongenburger lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Cc: ext Robert Schuster lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt;, maemo-developers@maemo.org Date: Friday, 6 June, 2008, 1:01 PM ext Kees Jongenburger wrote: gt; The community itself is not organized in what can we do to achieve xyz. gt; they and I expect zyx to be maemo.org. They might even think : if gt; maemo.org behaves like xyz gt; THEY would be doing the right thing. it is not exactly easy to gt; currently do anything for maemo.org gt; (rember the bus where you are not the driver?). Are we missing a gt; strong community leader? There is something missing, but I think it is more a matter of common understanding. It would be silly from Nokia's side to push business reasons in the maemo project without considering a sustainable approach to the free software community needs. But it is not much more clever from the community side to push software freedom reasons without considering a sustainable approach to the business company needs. maemo is expected by some people to be 100% free, and this is a fair and challenging goal. maemo is also expected by some people to beat the competition so the coolest OSS developers decide to invest their time, skills and attention in this project - which is also a fair and challenging goal. In addition to this, Nokia expects to make a sustainable/profitable business around the maemo platform and compatible devices. It is perhaps just a coincidence that those betting on 100% of software freedom as a guarantee of commercial success are not the ones making the big investment hiring a team and shipping devices. It's always easier to say change your business when you have no money invested in it. So please, relax and try to understand also the other side. Nokia is betting more in open source today than yesterday, and tomorrow more than today. Glacial speed? Depends how you look at it. A lot has been done between the 770 launch 3 years ago and today, even in terms of open source strategy. Unsatisfied about the speed and/or about the lack of a 100% freedom software delivered by Nokia? You can provide the speed and full scope yourselves, asking Nokia to remove any obstacles in your way. In the meantime we will keep trying shipping software, development platform and devices exciting not only the open source community but many more people out there. In fact you also want us to do so. -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source maemo software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 11:44 +, ext Darius Jack wrote: Nokia's corporate business is not exactly the business of developers working for free to let Nokia make business and generate profit. You have been adviced some time ago to check what's the reality around you. Looks like you didn't do your homework ... -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
Hey guys, Just wanted to let you know I have a list of points I'd like to address with the look feel, and interface dynamics coming on the way. I'll be travelling tomorrow and have a lot of work to finish before then so it may be a few days. But just wanted to let you know, and it's a good motivator when I tell people aloud what I need to do. :) All the best, Paul ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not really. What I personally miss is a specific plan by the community to achieve that. Is that plan the Mamona project lead by INdT developers? Is it opening or finding open alternatives to some of the closed components in the current maemo official components? Something else? I do like the OE approach. I was very happy and proud to present mamona as cool platform hack at LinuxTag . I explained there why I think the current sbox1 based approach (having an sdk created for users) results in the many problems and frustration we currently have. The community itself is not organized in what can we do to achieve xyz. they and I expect zyx to be maemo.org. They might even think : if maemo.org behaves like xyz THEY would be doing the right thing. it is not exactly easy to currently do anything for maemo.org (rember the bus where you are not the driver?). Are we missing a strong community leader? If I think of mamona in the maemo.org what next context I think that the main arguments to view/sell mamona would have to be that the packaging meta-data and the sources are separated. This encourages more experimenting and also allows Nokia to really cherry pick the components they would like in the ITOS but also allows other people to experiment greetings p.s. my presentation can be found here [1] http://dev.openbossa.org/trac/mamona/wiki/MamonaPresentations p.s.2 I published some pictures of LinuxTag at http://picasaweb.google.com/kees.jongenburger/LinuxTag2008Maemo ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
Hi, ext Paul Bloch wrote: One thing that comes to mind in terms of augmenting Maemo and making it a more robust system is whether it's possible to consolidate efforts being made by other groups such as the Ubuntu mobile project (I can't recall the name of this effort), and perhaps the efforts of openmoko and Android. My feeling is to benefit from the work we're all doing and share the prosperity and accomplishments in whatever way possible. Ultimately the open mobile OS, which Maemo is a fantastic example of, could be a project that could help strengthen the open source community as a whole through cross-pollination of ideas and work. Good principles. Can you provide examples? When it comes to open source, our current guideline is to collaborate as much as possible with the upstream projects that produce the open source code Nokia and others deploy in their platforms. Still, picking your examples is easy to see that collaboration is not always that easy - not even under the flag of open source and the best intentions: Hildon/GTK+, Enlightment, Qtopia, Dalvik... all they are very different beasts not easy to put in a same basket for a common effort. There are not many issues collaborating on what is underneath (Linux Kernel and some other low/middle layers) but the stack sitting on top of of that is very thick, and is actually where most of the new stuff, commercial pressure and willingness to differentiate comes from. Paul aka openartist So, where are your mockups? ;) -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source maemo software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
Hi. Marius Gedminas schrieb: If you attended the first talk I was the guy asking to raise your hand if you want to see the Nokia IT devices being freed of all proprietary software in one way (install a different OS) or another (make IT OS 100% free itself). I was one of those who raised their hands. :) 1) Users should be able to install any compatible OSes on their Nokia IT devices they wish like one can do on their desktop computers. Please add and have all the hardware working properly, because you can already install Debian or Poky on a Nokia IT. Good catch! While this is what I had in my mind it was not spoken out explicitly. I'll add this in the final text. 2) It should be possible to port and put Maemo on other non-Nokia devices like it is possible to e.g. port Fedora to any machine. If I'm not confused about the terms, Maemo already consists of only the open-source parts. The software that comes on a Nokia IT is called the Internet Tablet Operating System, and it is based on Maemo with a lot of non-free parts added at various levels of the software stack. Perhaps what you want is to make Maemo complete -- by adding the missing closed parts such as the virtual keyboard/handwriting input plugins, status bar applets, etc. My knowledge of maemo seems to be incomplete. Well, I thought all this stuff belongs to Maemo already. Too bad it does not ... Regards Robert signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
Hi. Quim Gil schrieb: The campaign proposal is interesting. I wonder if Nokia is the main target, though. Sure, Nokia is one of the targets but perhaps it's the own community of developers who could make a change. Or did the Linux open source communities wait for IBM, Intel, HP and so on to come up with the desired support while campaigning? Coding has been the best campaign of Linux and open source. Who is stopping you on what from coding to increase the freedom of the maemo platform? If I would start coding to 'correct' every free software avoiding business decision I certainly need more than one life. Additionally I am already spending time to create a 100% free software platform. Its called GNU and I am part of a small subproject called Classpath. ;) Now the funny thing: Recently people found out that building something on top of what GNU provides can make up a successful business. But instead of following the idea that brought GNU into existance they add proprietary software again. So the answer is no. As long as Maemo's goal is not 'providing a 100% free platform' as well I[0] will not contribute[1] to it and I expect that with more and more freedom respecting projects/products you will have a hard time finding people who do. In the FAQ[2] it is said that Maemo doesn't mean anything. I think that with Nokia's continued non-focus on free software people will associate the term with half-open and non-freeness. See also the comment someone added to the Wiki[3]: I think the simple, and widely publicized, answer here is No. ;) —generalantilles 16:09, 2 June 2008 (UTC) Benefits: I am not a lawyer, marketing expert, economist or else. Ask them if you want advice. However a commodization of portable devices like the ITs is likely. Lawyers, marketing experts and economists will tell you that companies like Nokia make their profits on differentiation rather than commoditation. There are parts of the platform where commoditation is preferred i.e. the L:inux kernel, but keeping a leading position in a market with 100% commoditized products is almost a mission impossible, specially when starting a new family product like these lovely Internet centric devices with touch screen and etc. I wonder what customers want and who is listening to them. I am not a customer because there is no company making me a suitable offer. Yes, wiki please. There are already ideas on your direction there. If the community has a concrete plan, then it's easier for Nokia to deal with it. I added Get official statement about Nokia's stance towards software freedom for this. Regards Robert [0] - others are free to do whatever they want [1] - as in dedicate time to it [2] - http://test.maemo.org/faq/faq.html#general [3] - https://wiki.maemo.org/Increasing_transparency signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
ext Robert Schuster wrote: If I'm not confused about the terms, Maemo already consists of only the open-source parts. The software that comes on a Nokia IT is called the Internet Tablet Operating System, and it is based on Maemo with a lot of non-free parts added at various levels of the software stack. Perhaps what you want is to make Maemo complete -- by adding the missing closed parts such as the virtual keyboard/handwriting input plugins, status bar applets, etc. My knowledge of maemo seems to be incomplete. Well, I thought all this stuff belongs to Maemo already. Too bad it does not ... Not your fault, since the definition is really unclear as for today. Another task to do in less than 100 Days. In order to address https://wiki.maemo.org/Increasing_transparency properly we will need to define the set of packages that make the maemo platform. It's not only the open source packages, since this is not enough to run a device. If wer talk about the platform it's probably neither the whole software stack preinstalled in an image, including i.e. games, utilities and other apps. Open to discussion with the final goal of having *the* list of packages that define the maemo platform today. In the wiki, please. -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source maemo software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
ext Robert Schuster wrote: Now the funny thing: Recently people found out that building something on top of what GNU provides can make up a successful business. But instead of following the idea that brought GNU into existance they add proprietary software again. This is a binary analysis. Nokia has added proprietary software as well as a whole bunch of open source code released, contributed back and/or commissioned to third parties related to upstream project. Besides, the fact of having a company like Nokia developing products based on Linux and open source helps _what GNU provides_ and more free software components getting more credibility and attention in the corporate and commercial world. So the answer is no. As long as Maemo's goal is not 'providing a 100% free platform' as well I[0] will not contribute[1] to it and I expect that with more and more freedom respecting projects/products you will have a hard time finding people who do. Until now maemo also has shown some capacity attracting new developers and users to the open source arena, in part thanks to its focus building consumer products where open source is a tool and not an end. As you say, it is possible that the prize of that is loosing some of the guys having 100% freedom software as first and last priority. Well, nobody champions in all sports. In the FAQ[2] it is said that Maemo doesn't mean anything. I think that with Nokia's continued non-focus on free software people will associate the term with half-open and non-freeness. Two things to consider: 1. As for today the maemo compatible devices are the most open devices sold in shops and fitting in your pocket. 2. How long did it get to have 100% free systems for desktops and laptops. Still nowadays there are some rough corners. Who polished those corners? Wasn't a combination of community and corporate effort? Isn't understandable that a new category of devices needs also some time to get a similar degree of openness through (again) a mixture of community and corporate work? -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source maemo software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 12:23:15PM +0200, Robert Schuster wrote: So the answer is no. As long as Maemo's goal is not 'providing a 100% free platform' as well I[0] will not contribute[1] to it and I expect that with more and more freedom respecting projects/products you will have a hard time finding people who do. This is what I had in mind in my LinuxTag maemo.org presentation: there are people who will not want to contribute to Maemo just because Nokia does not completely adhere to the free software principles. By that I did not mean to imply that Nokia should put free software above their bottom line. My point was that Nokia should evaluate the extra value received from free software zealots (this word is probably too strong, but I don't have the time right now to pick a better one) with value lost from opening their proprietary components. Unfortunately I'm no economist and I cannot evaluate either. Looking at the increasing popularity of free software in the IT sector it seems to me that free software benefits outweigh proprietary benefits, but this is not a choice I can make for Nokia; it's one Nokia has to make for themselves. Marius Gedminas -- As of 2.91, these bugs have all been fixed. We look forward to new ones, well, not exactly... -- libstdc++-v3 FAQ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
So the answer is no. As long as Maemo's goal is not 'providing a 100% free platform' as well I[0] will not contribute[1] to it and I expect that with more and more freedom respecting projects/products you will have a hard time finding people who do. This is what I had in mind in my LinuxTag maemo.org presentation: there are people who will not want to contribute to Maemo just because Nokia does not completely adhere to the free software principles. By that I did not mean to imply that Nokia should put free software above their bottom line. My point was that Nokia should evaluate the extra value received from free software zealots (this word is probably too strong, but I don't have the time right now to pick a better one) with value lost from opening their proprietary components. Is zealotry that wide-spread and that much of a stumbling block for some people? I'd prefer it to be open, but if it is possible to work within the constraints that Nokia impose (due to IP/NDA/etc. restrictions), as long as they are helpful in providing ways to use the functionality of the closed components, then I can accept that there are real reasons for the limitations and still be happy to use and develop for the device. Unfortunately I'm no economist and I cannot evaluate either. Looking at the increasing popularity of free software in the IT sector it seems to me that free software benefits outweigh proprietary benefits, but this is not a choice I can make for Nokia; it's one Nokia has to make for themselves. Perhaps, but we are quite often talking about interfacing with hardware from a company which makes lots of mobile devices, rather than software only service providers. My feeling/understanding is that closed components such as BME will stay closed as the IP is too valuable to release to competitors; the best we can hope for is some sort of API to communicate with the hardware via a closed component. This is not a problem for me as long as it is available. Likewise the wifi driver will not be open sourced as it belongs to someone else. We won't see the source for this released either, but perhaps we will see a more open source friendly version in a later tablet as long as it is cost-effective (same goes for the charging hw). Closed software-only (as in they don't talk to hardware) components are something we have more chance with; quite a few of the closed components don't seem to contain anything very hi-tech, but are just closed. This might just be because no-one has thought to open them; or to avoid competitors copying the whole interface/os in one go (though it wouldn't be beyond a company to just re-write these parts I'd guess); or perhaps to avoid developers screwing up the Nokia UI spec. and then releasing images which reflect badly on Nokia. Lots of perhapses of course :) Cheers, Simon ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
Hi, ext Robert Schuster wrote: Now the funny thing: Recently people found out that building something on top of what GNU provides can make up a successful business. But instead of following the idea that brought GNU into existance they add proprietary software again. Nokia has contributed to many open source projects during the years (starting at least from 90s). There are many companies that have both proprietary and open source components (Ubuntu (is Launchpad finally open?), Novell, IBM etc), it's not either or. As long as the trend in general is towards more open (when counting contributions both inside and outside the devices), at least I'm happy. So the answer is no. As long as Maemo's goal is not 'providing a 100% free platform' as well I[0] will not contribute[1] to it and I expect that with more and more freedom respecting projects/products you will have a hard time finding people who do. 1) I don't see why maemo goal could not be being 100% free. 2) It's not a goal for ITOS (which shares components with maemo) nor for Nokia (which does consumer mobile devices which by necessity currently require proprietary components for different reasons). If maemo is defined just as a subset of ITOS and something that should utilize all of specific Nokia devices hardware features, then 1) conflicts with 2). However, nothing says that maemo needs to be tied like that: The goal could be that: - There are free replacements (sometimes better, sometimes worse) for specific software functionalities that are proprietary in (certain versions of) ITOS. - Whether replacement means that the APIs/ABIs should be standard or compatible (enough) is another question - certain specified HW functionalities can be used with free software, for others it's not (as much of) an issue This would require that people actually prioritize what is important to them instead of giving less useful blanket statements that everything should be open, RIGHT NOW. :-) - Eero Even with majority of current Linux laptops, either they have binary drivers (bad) or some functionality is missing (to me, more acceptable). Trend is improving though. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
Robert Schuster wrote: So the answer is no. As long as Maemo's goal is not 'providing a 100% free platform' as well I[0] will not contribute[1] to it There is difference between Nokia and Maemo here. It may not be be goal for Nokia as a company (no matter what is our opinion on this) but it can be goal for Maemo and community around it. And I believe some work is slowly done towards this goal. Both at community side via replacing few closed bits or running alternative distributions, and some work is done on Nokia side too (with glacial speed) so we may have less roadblocks in future. and I expect that with more and more freedom respecting projects/products you will have a hard time finding people who do. Yes. I also hope the future is bright and have no problem switching to something more open with same qualities in future. Today (or maybe at least yesterday? ;-) Maemo is the best choice for me. It makes more sense (to me) to collaborate with them and try to push it towards openness than trying to start yet another tiny 100% open platform from scratch :-) Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 12:23:15PM +0200, Robert Schuster wrote: So the answer is no. As long as Maemo's goal is not 'providing a 100% free platform' as well I[0] will not contribute[1] to it and I expect that with more and more freedom respecting projects/products you will have a hard time finding people who do. This is what I had in mind in my LinuxTag maemo.org presentation: there are people who will not want to contribute to Maemo just because Nokia does not completely adhere to the free software principles. By that I did not mean to imply that Nokia should put free software above their bottom line. My point was that Nokia should evaluate the extra value received from free software zealots (this word is probably too strong, but I don't have the time right now to pick a better one) with value lost from opening their proprietary components. Nokia will not be able to estimate the value of contributions by outsiders. However they can estimate the value lost from opening up. They won't bet a known against an unknown. What they have done instead is to run an experiment. That experiment is the n800 and family. I say all this as an outsider. I don't speak for Nokia. Rather I am describing the general attitudes I have experienced from within a different large corporation. Unfortunately I'm no economist and I cannot evaluate either. Looking at the increasing popularity of free software in the IT sector it seems to me that free software benefits outweigh proprietary benefits, but this is not a choice I can make for Nokia; it's one Nokia has to make for themselves. Marius Gedminas Nokia is not likely to see it the same way. Not until they see proof. -- Allen Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://brown.armoredpenguin.com/~abrown/ One person, one vote (Except in Ohio or Florida.) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
proprietary and open source components (Ubuntu (is Launchpad finally open?), Novell, IBM etc), it's not either or. It is in the In Progress queue apparently https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/50699/comments/10 and likely to be released Affero licensed. To me launchpad.net is kind of like maemo.org...you are not forced to use it if you just want to use the OS. At least when you do install the Ubuntu system you get a pop up telling you are installing proprietary software and you have the choice to back out. No such choice exists when you install chinook yet both are marketed as open source. Ian -- http://ianlawrence.info ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
ext Robert Schuster [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are not a zealot like me and need an argument now? Ok. The free software scene came nearly out of nothing. Although free programs existed long before Linux was written, there was no organisation of those. One of the early communities that rallied together to make a change was Debian. Heh, please don't write the GNU project and the FSF out of the history books... ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
Interesting thread, and I agree that it's complex for businesses to find out how open to be while still being able to maintain a working business model. We certainly live in interesting times. I'm glad that such a question is on the table. One thing that comes to mind in terms of augmenting Maemo and making it a more robust system is whether it's possible to consolidate efforts being made by other groups such as the Ubuntu mobile project (I can't recall the name of this effort), and perhaps the efforts of openmoko and Android. My feeling is to benefit from the work we're all doing and share the prosperity and accomplishments in whatever way possible. Ultimately the open mobile OS, which Maemo is a fantastic example of, could be a project that could help strengthen the open source community as a whole through cross-pollination of ideas and work. My feeling is trying to work by going from strength to strength and capitalizing on the enthusiasm of open-sourcerers around the world and showing what a portable, lightweight, dynamic, flexible, immaculate, and useful open OS looks like. I think we can give more to people than any current solution on the market. I think we could give people everywhere with cellphones, handhelds, and tablets an extraordinary product that truly benefits the world and enhances their work and lives. I think an open OS can do that, and I think that any company who is running the best, most feature rich OS will make a heap from selling devices that run it. My prediction is that we're reaching a certain technological singularity for portable devices, where you don't need multiple ones, that every one of them has the power of the grid behind it and has the capacity to be a virtual omni controller for any conceivable application. Think of the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy meets Adam Sandler's universal remote from the movie Click. I think that's where we're headed, a pocket-sized super computer. So why not start to design the OS in that vain? A superfluid platform that can be imported to many kinds of devices, repurposing them into new useful things. I think it's also a very green vision to have that we can still upgrade devices that would otherwise head to the trashcan. Or at least donate them to the developing world, upgraded with a new OS, so that we can give cheap super-communicators to people. There's a TED talk about when people have more avenues for communication people small economies that have been sagging will revitalize and begin to become prosperous. I think the current version of the XO was designed to be learning toy, but Maemo, Maemo has an enormous amount of potential to be more then just a toy to people. It can augment entire economies and societal structures for the better. So I'm totally enthused to see what can be done. My personal vision is for a device called a Geode, the passport to planet earth. It would be an inexpensive ubiquitous device that would have the world within it. It would be the hitchhiker's guide to planet earth. The only caveat I would add to the license is the the software is only available to people involved in what would be defined as socially evolutionary. If you do destructive anti-social things (like genocide) then you are betraying the terms of use and the software license is revoked. :) That's my riff. Cheers, Paul aka openartist On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Marius Vollmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ext Robert Schuster [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are not a zealot like me and need an argument now? Ok. The free software scene came nearly out of nothing. Although free programs existed long before Linux was written, there was no organisation of those. One of the early communities that rallied together to make a change was Debian. Heh, please don't write the GNU project and the FSF out of the history books... ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
Hi! (If some bits sound to serious for your taste, take them with a grain of salt.) I finally subscribed to this list because I think the time is right. I attended LinuxTag 2008 in Berlin/Germany a few days ago. Quim Gil and other people from Nokia and the Maemo community were there. In the first Maemo talk Quim invited the community to speak out to Nokia (Btw: really Nokia or just the OSSO team?) and I want to participate therein. If you attended the first talk I was the guy asking to raise your hand if you want to see the Nokia IT devices being freed of all proprietary software in one way (install a different OS) or another (make IT OS 100% free itself). This brings us right to the topic: Free Software - free as in freedom, you know. :) I was *not* asking the question to show the Nokia staff that there are more than just '5 free software' visionaries in Maemo but mainly because I reported this[0] bug last year and was missing noticeable support from other free software friends. I know that some really good people have already given up on this topic and rest assured that this will also be my last attempt to subvert this community. ;) So the question at the talk was for me to find out whether I am really alone with my views. Apparantly it also made all of you show that you are not alone, too. :) Ok, Quim introduced the '10 action days'. My impression is that they would like to hear stuff like 'add feature X to the website', 'port application foo to maemo' or something else from that category. I have no suggestion like that because I strongly believe that a healthy free software community can fix any technical deficiency on their own. You are not a zealot like me and need an argument now? Ok. The free software scene came nearly out of nothing. Although free programs existed long before Linux was written, there was no organisation of those. One of the early communities that rallied together to make a change was Debian. It evolved from nothing to something that commercial free software vendors *want* to base their products on. Debian is the distribution Maemo was derived from. Ok, let me state some stuff before it gets hairy: - I do not consider someone/an organisation/company evil here. There are just different fears, opinions, convictions, way of doings etc. resulting in different behavior. - I consider the OSSO team at Nokia to be more open to FOSS than any other part in that company and that those guys are restricted by company policies. If there is something to fix than it will have most likely to do with that other parts. - I am very thankful for every contribution from Nokia staff to the free software community. However I treat every non-free part of the IT OS if it does not exist when it comes to being thankful. - If not said otherwise I speak in the name of those Maemo users who know that FOSS is the way to go. Everyone is free to completely disagree with my views opinions. Over time I learned about a few reasons why companies keep their Linux-based operating systems closed or deny NDA-free access to specification. Here are some: a) treaties/contracts made with chipset vendors (e.g. ARM, TI) enforce a certain non-disclosure of specifications b) fear of being imitated/plagiated by ... well manufacturers that are *specialized* in doing so c) company-wide policies that enforce a certain working style or common standards in different company sections (set up to make it easier to cope with national laws/regulations from *inside* the company[1]) d) fear of appearing less unique to the customer (something marketing people preach) e) fear of 'eating away' market share from other inhouse devices (especially from those where the margin is higher :) ) Without knowing anything from inside OSSO/Nokia in this regard I still hope that those reasons apply more or less to them because I want to base this year's Campaign for Software Freedom on Nokia IT devices (tm)[2] on them. ;) What the campaign is hoping to achieve is the following: 1) Users should be able to install any compatible OSes on their Nokia IT devices they wish like one can do on their desktop computers. 2) It should be possible to port and put Maemo on other non-Nokia devices like it is possible to e.g. port Fedora to any machine. - The means to achieve this goal are the following: 1) All software in Maemo should be licensed under free software licenses (I do not care about Skype, Flash, etc). 2) Either specifications or free software drivers should be provided for the components in the Nokia IT devices. To achieve those goals the following things should be adhered to: * Tackle one bit after another. Please prioritize important things (e.g. virtual keyboard/handwriting recognition battery management). If things start moving the communities' reward is patience. Feel free to make a big fuss when each component is freed. The free software community will party together with you. * Future software/hardware releases should not
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
Hi Robert, you missed the fact we have now Free Software and Corporate Free Software Open or not, it doesn't matter. Corporate Free Software is built for embedded devices. It would be nice to have Free Software Foundation to give a helpful hand in discovering which way global corporations and developers should go. Global Alliance on Free Software/ Open Source Free Software is a good idea, I have already proposed at this place. Transfer of Intellectual Property Rights is an issue donating Open Source Free Software developed by third parties to corporations. Darius Think-Tank Nokia Internet (WIMAX) Tablet GG http://groups.google.com/group/nokia-internet-tablet?hl=en --- On Mon, 2/6/08, Robert Schuster lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; wrote: From: Robert Schuster lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Subject: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008 To: maemo-developers@maemo.org Date: Monday, 2 June, 2008, 1:28 PM Hi! (If some bits sound to serious for your taste, take them with a grain of salt.) I finally subscribed to this list because I think the time is right. I attended LinuxTag 2008 in Berlin/Germany a few days ago. Quim Gil and other people from Nokia and the Maemo community were there. In the first Maemo talk Quim invited the community to speak out to Nokia (Btw: really Nokia or just the OSSO team?) and I want to participate therein. If you attended the first talk I was the guy asking to raise your hand if you want to see the Nokia IT devices being freed of all proprietary software in one way (install a different OS) or another (make IT OS 100% free itself). This brings us right to the topic: Free Software - free as in freedom, you know. :) I was *not* asking the question to show the Nokia staff that there are more than just '5 free software' visionaries in Maemo but mainly because I reported this[0] bug last year and was missing noticeable support from other free software friends. I know that some really good people have already given up on this topic and rest assured that this will also be my last attempt to subvert this community. ;) So the question at the talk was for me to find out whether I am really alone with my views. Apparantly it also made all of you show that you are not alone, too. :) Ok, Quim introduced the '10 action days'. My impression is that they would like to hear stuff like 'add feature X to the website', 'port application foo to maemo' or something else from that category. I have no suggestion like that because I strongly believe that a healthy free software community can fix any technical deficiency on their own. You are not a zealot like me and need an argument now? Ok. The free software scene came nearly out of nothing. Although free programs existed long before Linux was written, there was no organisation of those. One of the early communities that rallied together to make a change was Debian. It evolved from nothing to something that commercial free software vendors *want* to base their products on. Debian is the distribution Maemo was derived from. Ok, let me state some stuff before it gets hairy: - I do not consider someone/an organisation/company evil here. There are just different fears, opinions, convictions, way of doings etc. resulting in different behavior. - I consider the OSSO team at Nokia to be more open to FOSS than any other part in that company and that those guys are restricted by company policies. If there is something to fix than it will have most likely to do with that other parts. - I am very thankful for every contribution from Nokia staff to the free software community. However I treat every non-free part of the IT OS if it does not exist when it comes to being thankful. - If not said otherwise I speak in the name of those Maemo users who know that FOSS is the way to go. Everyone is free to completely disagree with my views amp; opinions. Over time I learned about a few reasons why companies keep their Linux-based operating systems closed or deny NDA-free access to specification. Here are some: a) treaties/contracts made with chipset vendors (e.g. ARM, TI) enforce a certain non-disclosure of specifications b) fear of being imitated/plagiated by ... well manufacturers that are *specialized* in doing so c) company-wide policies that enforce a certain working style or common standards in different company sections (set up to make it easier to cope with national laws/regulations from *inside* the company[1]) d) fear of appearing less unique to the customer (something marketing people preach) e) fear of 'eating away' market share from other inhouse devices (especially from those where the margin is higher :) ) Without knowing anything from inside OSSO/Nokia in this regard I still hope that those reasons apply more or less to them because I want to base this year's Campaign for Software Freedom on Nokia IT devices (tm)[2] on them. ;) What the campaign is hoping to achieve is the following: 1) Users should be able to install any compatible OSes on their Nokia IT devices
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
Hi! On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 01:28:23PM +0200, Robert Schuster wrote: I finally subscribed to this list because I think the time is right. Welcome! I attended LinuxTag 2008 in Berlin/Germany a few days ago. Quim Gil and other people from Nokia and the Maemo community were there. In the first Maemo talk Quim invited the community to speak out to Nokia (Btw: really Nokia or just the OSSO team?) and I want to participate therein. If you attended the first talk I was the guy asking to raise your hand if you want to see the Nokia IT devices being freed of all proprietary software in one way (install a different OS) or another (make IT OS 100% free itself). I was one of those who raised their hands. Without knowing anything from inside OSSO/Nokia in this regard I still hope that those reasons apply more or less to them because I want to base this year's Campaign for Software Freedom on Nokia IT devices (tm)[2] on them. ;) What the campaign is hoping to achieve is the following: 1) Users should be able to install any compatible OSes on their Nokia IT devices they wish like one can do on their desktop computers. Please add and have all the hardware working properly, because you can already install Debian or Poky on a Nokia IT. 2) It should be possible to port and put Maemo on other non-Nokia devices like it is possible to e.g. port Fedora to any machine. If I'm not confused about the terms, Maemo already consists of only the open-source parts. The software that comes on a Nokia IT is called the Internet Tablet Operating System, and it is based on Maemo with a lot of non-free parts added at various levels of the software stack. Perhaps what you want is to make Maemo complete -- by adding the missing closed parts such as the virtual keyboard/handwriting input plugins, status bar applets, etc. Regards, Marius Gedminas -- We can tell Nokia what we want. We can't tell Nokia what to do. If a comparable device with a more open platform appears, I will happily switch, just like I switched from the closed Palm to the half-open Nokia Internet Tablet. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Hello Maemo - CFSONID 2008
Hi! ext Robert Schuster wrote: In the first Maemo talk Quim invited the community to speak out to Nokia (Btw: really Nokia or just the OSSO team?) Well, Nokia. Don't expect 60.000 employees to be listening though, nor the CEO being subscribed to this list. ;) You are not a zealot like me and need an argument now? Not really. What I personally miss is a specific plan by the community to achieve that. Is that plan the Mamona project lead by INdT developers? Is it opening or finding open alternatives to some of the closed components in the current maemo official components? Something else? The argumentation is clear and we understand about free software as much as you, more or less. The thing is: for Nokia reaching 100% of software freedom is explicitly not a goal. The goal is to make good business producing successful products, and free software + the collaboration with the free software community are essential factors in this strategy - but not the only ones. But on the other hand Nokia has no interest stopping anybody from working on a 100% free maemo variant, or running whatever 100% free OS in maemo compatible Nokia devices. The devices are fairly open and you can even get the help of a rich community with a strong focus in software freedom (aka maemo.org) where you can also find Nokia employees with a very good knowledge of the platform and also a good understanding of your agenda. So please, no need to invest more time explaining to Nokia the goodness of free software and the opportunities behind a 100% free platform. Instead, you could better work on a plan or on real free code, like the Mamona guys are doing as well as those working on Debian, Ubuntu and what not ports. Nokia has opened whatever it was found useful to have open, and the door is... open... to open more stuff if there is a good developer/business argumentation behind that. - I consider the OSSO team at Nokia to be more open to FOSS than any other part in that company and that those guys are restricted by company policies. If there is something to fix than it will have most likely to do with that other parts. At the end it's not a restriction, but a business plan. Nokia has reasons to think than the current setting mixing open closed software works better for its business than a 100% open or a 100% closed setting. Then as a freedom software I can complain or lobby in certain directions, but I also try to understand the business reasons why Nokia thinks that our salaries will be paid better following the current path. And the guys managing the investment have also a point, I tell you. - If not said otherwise I speak in the name of those Maemo users who know that FOSS is the way to go. Everyone is free to completely disagree with my views opinions. Over time I learned about a few reasons why companies keep their Linux-based operating systems closed or deny NDA-free access to specification. Here are some: I can add one more: lack of proof that a 100% free operating system is a better business proposition for a company. If you look the world with business eyes, 100% free operating systems have little impact in the PC/laptop world and no impact in the mobile space. Nokia is already pushing and leading in terms of % of openness with the current maemo setting. For you this is not enough, for many others this is already much more than they expected. Without knowing anything from inside OSSO/Nokia in this regard I still hope that those reasons apply more or less to them because I want to base this year's Campaign for Software Freedom on Nokia IT devices (tm)[2] on them. ;) The campaign proposal is interesting. I wonder if Nokia is the main target, though. Sure, Nokia is one of the targets but perhaps it's the own community of developers who could make a change. Or did the Linux open source communities wait for IBM, Intel, HP and so on to come up with the desired support while campaigning? Coding has been the best campaign of Linux and open source. Who is stopping you on what from coding to increase the freedom of the maemo platform? Benefits: I am not a lawyer, marketing expert, economist or else. Ask them if you want advice. However a commodization of portable devices like the ITs is likely. Lawyers, marketing experts and economists will tell you that companies like Nokia make their profits on differentiation rather than commoditation. There are parts of the platform where commoditation is preferred i.e. the L:inux kernel, but keeping a leading position in a market with 100% commoditized products is almost a mission impossible, specially when starting a new family product like these lovely Internet centric devices with touch screen and etc. will distill the above stuff into an 'official' statement, put it online somewhere (Maemo Wiki?) and let supporting users subscribe to it. The final document is then given to Nokia/OSSO as part of the 'action days' and if the interest from them is not
