Re: USB host mode on N900 (was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
[Paul Fertser Di 8. Dezember 2009]: Hi, On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 00:01:41 +0300, Igor Stoppa wrote: On Sun, 2009-09-20 at 22:56 +0200, ext Kees Jongenburger wrote: On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 9:02 PM, Igor Stoppa wrote: Add to that several HW bugs that were discovered during the development and needed workarounds. Does this simply mean it's not possible at all? not even for example booting in HOST only mode? AFAIK no. Not even that. Note that i'm no USB expert, but if i have understood correctly, part of the configuration is done automatically by the transceiver and that cannot be done because of the missing line from the connector that would identify the port as A type. I'm no USB expert either but given what i already know about it, i think more hardware information is needed to be able to give a final verdict on the N900 usb host mode functionality. I'm not talking here about perfectly correct standards implementation or certification issues though i personally would prefer to have a working hostmode implementation to having a useless usb logo on the box. So, a bit of theory first: 1. n810 analogy doesn't work here since n810 uses a dedicated usb controller (tusb6010b) along with a power management ic (tps65030) while n900 uses an integrated Mentor Graphics OTG controller (musb mhdrc) and other components still unknown to the general public. 2. For true OTG operation a dedicated line should be routed from the ID pin of receptable to the MUSB core. 3. For a device to act as a slave a strong 1.5k pullup should be connected to the DP line, this way a slave signals its presence. 4. For a device to act as a host two 15k pulldowns should be connected to DM and DP lines. If actual hardware lacks those, they can be easily connected externally, along with the peripheral equipment. 5. MUSB has output pins to control the necessary resistors and external circuits to provide power on Vbus. 6. Even in traditional usb-host - usb-device scenario power on the 5V line can come from either side, one can e.g. modify a powered hub in a way to provide power both to the host and to the peripherals, and since host charging circuit is generally independent from the usb controller, one most likely can use a hub like that to charge host and to enable usage of slave devices at the same time. Probably current musb driver doesn't support this scenario yet but it shouldn't be hard to implement. 7. I can't tell for sure because MUSB datasheet looks like a parody but it seems highly unlikely that it's impossible to manually switch musb to the host mode. Now, the questions: 0. Is there any real show-stopper to use USB host mode? 1. Does n900 have an integrated curcuit to provide power to the external devices over usb and if yes, what is it and how is it connected/controlled? 2. Does n900 have the necessary 15k pulldowns in place? 3. Is it indeed the connection between the ID pin on usb receptable and musb that is missing? It'd look strange to not route that line, even if the hostmode/otg is not fully functional, it's only one possibly useful line after all. 4. What HW bugs you mentioned are still present in the mass-produced devices, how do they affect usb operation? 5. Since musb driver doesn't seem to be in a particularly good shape, is it possible that some problems nokia engineers faced are software issues and hence can be fixed? What were they? Looking forward to your reply, TIA :) Happy hacking! It's a pity nobody ever answered those questions, as it would have saved us an Olympus Mons of troubles we had to go through, to find out about all that by ourselves, with ZERO support from Nokia. Whatever, Nokia said it's not possible, I always said it's impossible that this is not possible, so finally hostmode taskforce team [1] proudly presents: * USB HOSTMODE ON N900 * * * see https://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/h-e-n-devel/2010/35.html https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/ggit/browse.php/?p=h-e-n;a=commit;h=d7f76e505b16f7e9305c59c51d02fb1473ab5b2c [1] hostmode taskforce team mostly are the gals and guys listed as members of h-e-n.garage.maemo.org Joerg Reisenweber System Architect, Senior EE, Consultant signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: USB host mode on N900 (was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
Hi, On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 09:24:51PM -0800, Sarah Newman wrote: Paul Fertser wrote: I'm no USB expert either but given what i already know about it, i think more hardware information is needed to be able to give a final verdict on the N900 usb host mode functionality. I'm not talking here about perfectly correct standards implementation or certification issues though i personally would prefer to have a working hostmode implementation to having a useless usb logo on the box. I don't know at this time what Nokia went through to get their USB charging to work, but my expectation is that host mode is not supported because the n900 cannot supply power. Even if n900 can't supply power hostmode should still be possible if you provide power to the peripheral from the outside. Your other remarks about OTG are valid but even if proper OTG support is impossible on n900, having host mode working in a manual way would still be great. I mean one just switches it to the host mode, provides power and 15k pulldowns (if necessary) and it should just work. If i had an n900 in my hands, i would use the mode sysfs node of the musb driver, valid parameters are host, peripheral and otg. I'd switch it to the host mode and measured with DMM if there's power on the Vbus and checked the resistance between DM/DP and GND (should be ~15k). I'd connect what's lacking externally and tried attaching some mass-storage device or a mouse. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: USB host mode on N900 (was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
Paul Fertser wrote: I'm no USB expert either but given what i already know about it, i think more hardware information is needed to be able to give a final verdict on the N900 usb host mode functionality. I'm not talking here about perfectly correct standards implementation or certification issues though i personally would prefer to have a working hostmode implementation to having a useless usb logo on the box. Please take this with a grain of salt as I only spent a couple of hours on this. I don't know at this time what Nokia went through to get their USB charging to work, but my expectation is that host mode is not supported because the n900 cannot supply power. We also don't know what errata, if any, are active against the omap3430 and the PMIC. FYI the beagleboard uses the omap3530 and the tps65950 which appear to be functionally equivalent. This http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/1822/ seems like a reasonably good introduction to OTG. That spec as well as the kernel source indicates it is possible for a B device to act as host. Note on Figure 5 of that web page above that the select for B device and peripheral vs. host device can be separate. However it is still necessary for those peripheral/host resistors to swap even if the A/B resistors do not swap. Swapping the resistors appears to generally be called SoftConnect. I recall some notes in the kernel to the effect that SoftConnect is not supported, but whether the barrier is software or hardware I don't know. B device as host looks to be at least partially implemented in the n900 kernel but that doesn't mean it works. Connecting another device with linux and OTG to an n900 should be the easiest way to determine if B host mode is possible, assuming the other device can also support the HNP. There's also supposed to be a new standard where an OTG can both charge and act as host at the same time. I have not looked at it. In theory you should be able to measure the resistance between the different USB lines and that may be easier to do than pure speculation. There is also some amount of debugging information for usb available with the default kernel. I think there are true OTG cables which may be an easier route for testing. Regards, Sarah ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
If you're going to use an external CPU module running Linux, you might as well use an N8x0. After all, A CPU module is a pretty big gun to be pointing at that mosquito. On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 11:27 PM, Kees Jongenburger kees.jongenbur...@gmail.com wrote: I guess the Hammer CPU module is very well suited for this as you can run a full linux stack on this http://www.tincanthttp://www.tincantools.com/product.php?productid=16133cat=0page=1featured ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 8:55 PM, Qole qole.tab...@gmail.com wrote: If you're going to use an external CPU module running Linux, you might as well use an N8x0. That will not fit for my project, how would I connect something to the n800 after that: repeat the n800 serial hack[1]? Implementing usb-host on a microcontroller is possible but will be quite hard (what protocol to talk etc) I think the most reasonable solutions I heard so far are to use the IR transceiver this should be relatively cheap or use a Wiimote(easy). Of course there is the BT serial possibility but I would like to avoid doing that if possible I am now experimenting with the hammer to get usb-net + synergy going I can test this on the N800 but agree it's quite something but who else can ssh to their gaming controller device, tweak latency and change the key repeat from the cmd line :p [1] file:///home/keesj/realcam/hackings/n800_serial/index3.html (n800 serial cable hack) After all, A CPU module is a pretty big gun to be pointing at that mosquito. Yep true, Greetings ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
Hi On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 10:49 PM, Kees Jongenburger kees.jongenbur...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 8:55 PM, Qole qole.tab...@gmail.com wrote: If you're going to use an external CPU module running Linux, you might as well use an N8x0. [1] file:///home/keesj/realcam/hackings/n800_serial/index3.html (n800 serial cable hack) This is the right url sorry about that http://mamona.mmapps.net/n800_serial/index3.html ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
Hi On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 12:23 AM, Attila Csipa ma...@csipa.in.rs wrote: On Sunday 20 September 2009 23:11:07 Kees Jongenburger wrote: I indeed planed to use usb-host in my project. perhaps we can use the connectors behind the battery, previous models used to have serial there. If anybody has a bright ideas on how to connect something to the n900 that would be great. Well if you need just serial and don't mind the expense, probably the easiest way is a bluetooth modem, a la http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=582 That certainly works (as proven) but it's not what I would like to do. For my project this is probably already taking to much space. For your info the project proposal I am working on involves adding more buttons to the device. The best for me would be to simply implement a usb-hid device. This is still in beta as I am doing some more research but input/contribution/joining the project is more then welcome http://wiki.github.com/keesj/push_nbutton A bit more out-of-the-box thinking is to do things backwards, i.e. get a beefy microcontroller that does USB host mode or USB OTG, and have the N900 connect to that. This will also require some software wizardry as the N900 will want to present itself as mass storage, but maybe that can be hacked/tweaked. Yea also you will need to create a gadget driver unless you use g_ehter or some other standard. I guess the Hammer CPU module is very well suited for this as you can run a full linux stack on this http://www.tincantools.com/product.php?productid=16133cat=0page=1featured Greetings ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
That certainly works (as proven) but it's not what I would like to do. For my project this is probably already taking to much space. For your info the project proposal I am working on involves adding more buttons to the device. The best for me would be to simply implement a usb-hid device. Why don't you implement a bluetooth HID ? You could even use a N800/N8100 with BlueMaemo to emaulate the client part :) Fred ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
Hi, http://wiki.github.com/keesj/push_nbutton Nice idea using lego. Maybe you can hide a wiimote in it. Bluetooth, buttons, tilt sensor. See http://konttoristhoughts.blogspot.com/2008/05/wiicontrol-for-nokia-n810-n800.html for a start. regards, -- Willem-Jan de Hoog ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:47 AM, Fred Lefévère-Laoide f...@lefevere-laoide.net wrote: That certainly works (as proven) but it's not what I would like to do. For my project this is probably already taking to much space. For your info the project proposal I am working on involves adding more buttons to the device. The best for me would be to simply implement a usb-hid device. Why don't you implement a bluetooth HID ? I Would like to keep the cost down if possible. An other reason is that this setup will work for different purposes(I have a few servo's that might be used) . For those who might want to go that way I think the easy way of doing this might be to still use a serial BT and use Fanoush'f port of kbdd[1] as it allows serial BT keyboards. By using this you don't need to much programming on the maemo side to generate key events. http://fanoush.wz.cz/maemo/ You could even use a N800/N8100 with BlueMaemo to emaulate the client part :) Using a N800 for doing is is perhaps somewhat over the top. I dutch we call this Schieten met een kanon op een mug or translated Shooting with a gun on a mosquito :p Thanks for the feedback Greeting Kees Jongenburger ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
Hi, On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 9:28 AM, W. de Hoog wdeh...@exalondelft.nl wrote: Hi, http://wiki.github.com/keesj/push_nbutton Nice idea using lego. Maybe you can hide a wiimote in it. Bluetooth, buttons, tilt sensor. See http://konttoristhoughts.blogspot.com/2008/05/wiicontrol-for-nokia-n810-n800.html for a start. Thanks a lot Willem-Jan this is a great and simple idea. I even packaged cwiid[1] in the past using mud[2] but completely forgot about it. Greetings [1] https://garage.maemo.org/viewvc/trunk/packages/cwiid.xml?revision=187root=mud-builder [2] http://mud-builder.garage.maemo.org/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 9:28 AM, W. de Hoog wdeh...@exalondelft.nl wrote: Hi, http://wiki.github.com/keesj/push_nbutton Nice idea using lego. This lego was just for prototyping the real thing needs to be different and have real button and room to store the hardware. Greetings ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
On Monday 21 September 2009 08:27:43 Kees Jongenburger wrote: Well if you need just serial and don't mind the expense, probably the easiest way is a bluetooth modem, a la http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=582 That certainly works (as proven) but it's not what I would like to do. For my project this is probably already taking to much space. For your info the project proposal I am working on involves adding more buttons to the device. The best for me would be to simply implement a usb-hid device. In that case, you might as well use the infrared port - definitely cheaper, can do serial, and probably takes up less space than those BT modems. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Attila Csipa ma...@csipa.in.rs wrote: On Monday 21 September 2009 08:27:43 Kees Jongenburger wrote: Well if you need just serial and don't mind the expense, probably the easiest way is a bluetooth modem, a la http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=582 That certainly works (as proven) but it's not what I would like to do. For my project this is probably already taking to much space. For your info the project proposal I am working on involves adding more buttons to the device. The best for me would be to simply implement a usb-hid device. In that case, you might as well use the infrared port - definitely cheaper, can do serial, and probably takes up less space than those BT modems. http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/specifications/ Doesn't talk about IR, is it a IR sender or transceiver ? ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
On Monday 21 September 2009 13:42:25 Kees Jongenburger wrote: In that case, you might as well use the infrared port - definitely cheaper, can do serial, and probably takes up less space than those BT modems. http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/specifications/ Doesn't talk about IR, is it a IR sender or transceiver ? It seems to be an easter egg, so no official specs, only irreco is confirmed to use it so far ( http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31399 ). The irreco backends in fremantle are noted to include telnet and commandline, this seems to suggest a transceiver, but a Nokia confirmation would sure come handy. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 11:27 PM, Kees Jongenburger kees.jongenbur...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 12:23 AM, Attila Csipa ma...@csipa.in.rs wrote: On Sunday 20 September 2009 23:11:07 Kees Jongenburger wrote: Well if you need just serial and don't mind the expense, probably the easiest way is a bluetooth modem, a la http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=582 That certainly works (as proven) but it's not what I would like to do. For my project this is probably already taking to much space. For your info the project proposal I am working on involves adding more buttons to the device. The best for me would be to simply implement a usb-hid device. The parani modules are very small, adding them to an arduino can give you a keyboard scanner. http://www.sena.com/products/industrial_bluetooth/esd.php Then there's this the whole PC-104 keyboard is implemented (I have one): http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.16685 ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: N900 usb host + power charge
Kees Jongenburger wrote: Hi, I plan to create a proposal for the push n900[1] and I plan to use the usb port. I have the following question. When the device is in usb-host mode it should of course provide power does it? Is it possible to charge the device while it's in usb-host mode? Greetings [1] http://blogs.nokia.com/pushn900/ I saw the interesting responses to the 'hijack' about gadget mode - but did you get an answer to the host mode question Kees? I'm quite interested in this too... David -- Don't worry, you'll be fine; I saw it work in a cartoon once... ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: N900 usb host + power charge
Hi David, On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 7:15 PM, David Greaves da...@dgreaves.com wrote: Kees Jongenburger wrote: Hi, I plan to create a proposal for the push n900[1] and I plan to use the usb port. I have the following question. When the device is in usb-host mode it should of course provide power does it? Is it possible to charge the device while it's in usb-host mode? I saw the interesting responses to the 'hijack' about gadget mode - but did you get an answer to the host mode question Kees? No, I found a QA from Nokia World stating something like: probably the same level of support as was done for n800/n810. What this means I don't know , will we need to patch the kernel again? The real answer should be here: http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/specifications/ but the only thing about USB wrong. it states Micro-USB connector which is also wrong as it should be mini right? Still hoping for some good answer or somebody with a device to report success, Greetings ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: N900 usb host + power charge
Hi, I plan to create a proposal for the push n900[1] and I plan to use the usb port. I have the following question. When the device is in usb-host mode it should of course provide power does it? Is it possible to charge the device while it's in usb-host mode? The N900 comes without USB host mode. When I asked I was told that the limitation comes at hardware level. The reason for this decision was the complexity of providing support for charging, PC connectivity and USB OTG efficiently through the same Micro USB port within the project deadlines. We needed to make choices and the decision was to sacrify USB OTG and concentrate on the essential use cases of charging and connecting to the PC, bringing the N900 to the market in its due time. -- Quim Gil open source advocate Maemo Devices @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: N900 usb host + power charge
On Sun, 2009-09-20 at 20:44 +0200, Gil Quim (Nokia-D/Helsinki) wrote: Hi, I plan to create a proposal for the push n900[1] and I plan to use the usb port. I have the following question. When the device is in usb-host mode it should of course provide power does it? Is it possible to charge the device while it's in usb-host mode? The N900 comes without USB host mode. When I asked I was told that the limitation comes at hardware level. I can confirm this. The most reasonable setup would have been to provide the A connector, but only gadget mode working forthe sales release, then in a SW update to provide full spectrum support. Then enters the USB certification with all its mass of quite often bizantine, obsolete and plain braindead requirements. One of them being that the certification with A connector can be passed only if full functionality is provided by the SW. In this case I propose that complaints are directed to the USB consortium. I have really come to doubt that it's actually protecting the consumers' interests in nowadays scenario. The reason for this decision was the complexity of providing support for charging, PC connectivity and USB OTG efficiently through the same Micro USB port within the project deadlines. Add to that several HW bugs that were discovered during the development and needed workarounds. We needed to make choices and the decision was to sacrify USB OTG and concentrate on the essential use cases of charging and connecting to the PC, bringing the N900 to the market in its due time. Although noone really liked the choice we had to make. We do use our products and as consumers we are aware of the limitations sometimes we have to apply. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Maemo Software - Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: N900 usb host + power charge
Le samedi 19 septembre 2009 à 15:44 +0300, Matan Ziv-Av a écrit : BTW, since webcams don't have a USB standard, and need a driver anyway, you can implement such driver over existing transports such as serial or ethernet. Webcams do have such a standard, it's called UVC (USB Video Class). They don't need a driver (at least under a recent Linux kernel). Xav ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: N900 usb host + power charge
quim@nokia.com wrote: Hi, I plan to create a proposal for the push n900[1] and I plan to use the usb port. I have the following question. When the device is in usb-host mode it should of course provide power does it? Is it possible to charge the device while it's in usb-host mode? The N900 comes without USB host mode. When I asked I was told that the limitation comes at hardware level. The reason for this decision was the complexity of providing support for charging, PC connectivity and USB OTG efficiently through the same Micro USB port within the project deadlines. We needed to make choices and the decision was to sacrify USB OTG and concentrate on the essential use cases of charging and connecting to the PC, bringing the N900 to the market in its due time. Sigh :( I realised today that PUSH needed a way for software people to get at it easily. So I spent the entire day packaging an I/O library and porting it to Maemo so there was a python app that could do: ReadDigitalChannel(1) or WriteAllDigital(17) to do the I/O This afternoon I created a garage project and then wrote an article: http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2009/09/want-to-push-need-kickstart.html Never mind... Hmm, can I get dispensation to enter PUSH using a $100 SmartQ ? Maybe I could run ssh from the N900 and have the N900 drive a Maemo powered SmartQ... proxy host mode... David -- Don't worry, you'll be fine; I saw it work in a cartoon once... ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: N900 usb host + power charge
On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 9:02 PM, Igor Stoppa igor.sto...@nokia.com wrote: On Sun, 2009-09-20 at 20:44 +0200, Gil Quim (Nokia-D/Helsinki) wrote: The N900 comes without USB host mode. When I asked I was told that the limitation comes at hardware level. I can confirm this. The most reasonable setup would have been to provide the A connector, but only gadget mode working for the sales release, then in a SW update to provide full spectrum support. The reason for this decision was the complexity of providing support for charging, PC connectivity and USB OTG efficiently through the same Micro USB port within the project deadlines. Add to that several HW bugs that were discovered during the development and needed workarounds. Does this simply mean it's not possible at all? not even for example booting in HOST only mode? We needed to make choices and the decision was to sacrify USB OTG and concentrate on the essential use cases of charging and connecting to the PC, bringing the N900 to the market in its due time. Although noone really liked the choice we had to make. We do use our products and as consumers we are aware of the limitations sometimes we have to apply. Thanks a LOT for the answers, its really great to be able to get them!. Greetings Kees Jongenburger ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: N900 usb host + power charge
On Sun, 2009-09-20 at 22:56 +0200, ext Kees Jongenburger wrote: On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 9:02 PM, Igor Stoppa igor.sto...@nokia.com wrote: Add to that several HW bugs that were discovered during the development and needed workarounds. Does this simply mean it's not possible at all? not even for example booting in HOST only mode? AFAIK no. Not even that. Note that i'm no USB expert, but if i have understood correctly, part of the configuration is done automatically by the transceiver and that cannot be done because of the missing line from the connector that would identify the port as A type. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Maemo Software - Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
Hi David, On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 10:36 PM, David Greaves da...@dgreaves.com wrote: quim@nokia.com wrote: The reason for this decision was the complexity of providing support for charging, PC connectivity and USB OTG efficiently through the same Micro USB port within the project deadlines. We needed to make choices and the decision was to sacrify USB OTG and concentrate on the essential use cases of charging and connecting to the PC, bringing the N900 to the market in its due time. Sigh :( I realised today that PUSH needed a way for software people to get at it easily. This afternoon I created a garage project and then wrote an article: http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2009/09/want-to-push-need-kickstart.html Never mind... I indeed planed to use usb-host in my project. perhaps we can use the connectors behind the battery, previous models used to have serial there. If anybody has a bright ideas on how to connect something to the n900 that would be great. Hmm, can I get dispensation to enter PUSH using a $100 SmartQ ? Maybe I could run ssh from the N900 and have the N900 drive a Maemo powered SmartQ... proxy host mode... For the submission I am working on planned to use a cypress CY7C68013A as usb-client but perhaps I can use the CY7C67300 http://www.cypress.com/products/index.jsp?fid=10rpn=CY7C67300 as host. It does make thing more challenging. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
Kees Jongenburger wrote: I indeed planed to use usb-host in my project. perhaps we can use the connectors behind the battery, previous models used to have serial there. If anybody has a bright ideas on how to connect something to the n900 that would be great. I have used bluetooth to serial connectors with the n800 successfully. There should be no reason that can't work with the n900. Unfortunately I can't find the part or I would give you the part number. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
On Sunday 20 September 2009 23:11:07 Kees Jongenburger wrote: I indeed planed to use usb-host in my project. perhaps we can use the connectors behind the battery, previous models used to have serial there. If anybody has a bright ideas on how to connect something to the n900 that would be great. Well if you need just serial and don't mind the expense, probably the easiest way is a bluetooth modem, a la http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=582 A bit more out-of-the-box thinking is to do things backwards, i.e. get a beefy microcontroller that does USB host mode or USB OTG, and have the N900 connect to that. This will also require some software wizardry as the N900 will want to present itself as mass storage, but maybe that can be hacked/tweaked. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
Sarah Newman wrote: Kees Jongenburger wrote: I indeed planed to use usb-host in my project. perhaps we can use the connectors behind the battery, previous models used to have serial there. If anybody has a bright ideas on how to connect something to the n900 that would be great. I have used bluetooth to serial connectors with the n800 successfully. There should be no reason that can't work with the n900. Unfortunately I can't find the part or I would give you the part number. Actually I used this: http://www.iogear.com/product/GBS301/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PUSH N900 (Was Re: N900 usb host + power charge)
Maybe serial control a USB host? http://www.compsys1.com/html/usb_host_kit.html On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Attila Csipa ma...@csipa.in.rs wrote: On Sunday 20 September 2009 23:11:07 Kees Jongenburger wrote: I indeed planed to use usb-host in my project. perhaps we can use the connectors behind the battery, previous models used to have serial there. If anybody has a bright ideas on how to connect something to the n900 that would be great. Well if you need just serial and don't mind the expense, probably the easiest way is a bluetooth modem, a la http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=582 A bit more out-of-the-box thinking is to do things backwards, i.e. get a beefy microcontroller that does USB host mode or USB OTG, and have the N900 connect to that. This will also require some software wizardry as the N900 will want to present itself as mass storage, but maybe that can be hacked/tweaked. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: N900 usb host + power charge
quim@nokia.com wrote: Hi, I plan to create a proposal for the push n900[1] and I plan to use the usb port. I have the following question. When the device is in usb-host mode it should of course provide power does it? Is it possible to charge the device while it's in usb-host mode? The N900 comes without USB host mode. When I asked I was told that the limitation comes at hardware level. The processor itself can support OTG. Am I being told that if the kernel was working perfectly I could still not use a program such as http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/usbcontrol/ to manually switch? I have heard a rumor that perhaps USB is not well enough supported yet in the kernel for OMAP3, though very unfortunately I have not taken time to look at it. If I could never ever use the n900 as a host that's absolutely terrible and extremely disappointing from a development viewpoint. It is no better than other phones then for many possible applications. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: N900 usb host + power charge
On Fri, 2009-09-18 at 22:55 +0200, Kees Jongenburger wrote: Hi, I plan to create a proposal for the push n900[1] and I plan to use the usb port. I have the following question. When the device is in usb-host mode it should of course provide power does it? Is it possible to charge the device while it's in usb-host mode? The other way around: is it technically possible to have the n900 (and n810) behave as an USB keyboard when connected to a PC? And even better emulate any other USB device like a webcam, etc...? When you see the price of a generic USB client PC extension card that would be a great niche use of the n900/n810 :). And given the high res camera, one could imagine using a N900 as an IP KVM, USB as keyboard and camera facing an LCD to see what's going on :). Thanks in advance, Laurent ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: N900 usb host + power charge
On Sat, 19 Sep 2009, Laurent GUERBY wrote: On Fri, 2009-09-18 at 22:55 +0200, Kees Jongenburger wrote: Hi, I plan to create a proposal for the push n900[1] and I plan to use the usb port. I have the following question. When the device is in usb-host mode it should of course provide power does it? Is it possible to charge the device while it's in usb-host mode? The other way around: is it technically possible to have the n900 (and n810) behave as an USB keyboard when connected to a PC? And even better emulate any other USB device like a webcam, etc...? I expect the hardware can do it, but it needs some work in kernel space. The 2.6.29 kernel can appear as an ethernet, serial, mass storage, midi audio or printer device. Anything else, needs a driver written. Gadget drivers can also be in user space, using gadgetfs, but I don't know of any examples. When you see the price of a generic USB client PC extension card that would be a great niche use of the n900/n810 :). And given the high res camera, one could imagine using a N900 as an IP KVM, USB as keyboard and camera facing an LCD to see what's going on :). BTW, since webcams don't have a USB standard, and need a driver anyway, you can implement such driver over existing transports such as serial or ethernet. -- Matan Ziv-Av. ma...@svgalib.org ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: N900 usb host + power charge
On Sat, 2009-09-19 at 15:44 +0300, Matan Ziv-Av wrote: On Sat, 19 Sep 2009, Laurent GUERBY wrote: On Fri, 2009-09-18 at 22:55 +0200, Kees Jongenburger wrote: Hi, I plan to create a proposal for the push n900[1] and I plan to use the usb port. I have the following question. When the device is in usb-host mode it should of course provide power does it? Is it possible to charge the device while it's in usb-host mode? The other way around: is it technically possible to have the n900 (and n810) behave as an USB keyboard when connected to a PC? And even better emulate any other USB device like a webcam, etc...? I expect the hardware can do it, but it needs some work in kernel space. The 2.6.29 kernel can appear as an ethernet, serial, mass storage, midi audio or printer device. Anything else, needs a driver written. Gadget drivers can also be in user space, using gadgetfs, but I don't know of any examples. Hi, Thanks for your answer! Looking around for gadget I found: http://www.linux-usb.org/gadget/ Other controller and gadget drivers are in development, but are unreleased or not published here. Examples that have seen some degree of light include: * HID driver (userspace, with gadgetfs), * MTP (Media Transfer Protocol, PTP++) driver (userspace, with gadgetfs), * two different printer class drivers (used in various products), * audio class driver (very experimental). * video class driver (very experimental). (HID is keyboard+mouse+other input devices) I found a discussion of some issue with Issues with simulating a keyboard device with gadgetfs here: http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/linux-usb/2009/4/10/5455984/thread Which points to an unapplied kernel patch. So transforming a N900/N810 as a pocket USB keyboard (+ mouse/tablet), and may be hacker wireless IP KVM using camera/webcam over LCD looks like quite a bit of kernel-level work :). Sincerely, Laurent ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: N900 usb host + power charge
On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Laurent GUERBY laur...@guerby.net wrote: On Fri, 2009-09-18 at 22:55 +0200, Kees Jongenburger wrote: Hi, I plan to create a proposal for the push n900[1] and I plan to use the usb port. I have the following question. When the device is in usb-host mode it should of course provide power does it? Is it possible to charge the device while it's in usb-host mode? The other way around: is it technically possible to have the n900 (and n810) behave as an USB keyboard when connected to a PC? And even better emulate any other USB device like a webcam, etc...? The kernel gadgets still kinda lacks support for this. but the good new is that there are other ways Using bluetooth to make the device act as HID device: http://www.valeriovalerio.org/?page_id=174 Using Synergy + usb_net http://synergy2.sourceforge.net/ Greetings ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
