Re: [Mailman-Developers] MM3 DMARC mitigations

[David Andrews]

At 11:06 AM 11/5/2016, Mark Sapiro wrote:


However, I've just become aware that Microsoft has implemented another
"feature". So far, the info I have is this is limited to their "hosted
mail services", but it may well spread. What they are doing is looking
at incoming mail for signs of spoofing/phishing and if found, they place
a prominent notice

This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they
appear to be. Learn about spoofing

in the message. The issue for us is that one of the tests is the To: and
From: addresses are the same. That means that any message To: a list
with DMARC mitigations applied will be sent From: the list and any
recipients using these Microsoft services will see that warning in the
list message[1].

How long will it be before this spreads to all Microsoft email services
?


This message has started appearing on messages on a list I subscribe 
to at work, the state of MN, and they use hosted office 365 etc., and 
the messages are almost always from legitimate senders, so going to 
be a problem.


Dave


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support

[David Andrews]

At 04:35 AM 3/7/2016, Florian Fuchs wrote:

On Sat, Mar 05, 2016 at 16:27:31PM +0530, Aditya Divekar wrote:
As a side-note, especially to those who are using screen readers: What is
your experience regarding the use of JavaScript in current screen readers? Is
this still mostly a no-go for web sites aiming to be accessible or has there
been some improvement?


Most Javascript works fine, as long as it doesn't do unorthodox 
things in unorthodox ways, javascript should work with screen 
readers. After all, most web sites use it to one extent or another.


Dave




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Re: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support

[David Andrews]

At 04:57 AM 3/5/2016, Aditya Divekar wrote:

Hi!
I was looking around the mailman code, and could not find the functionality
for captcha in the mailing lists subscription pages.
I think it could be a good feature to implement in the upcoming versions,
and would like to know if its a good idea?
I also came across the thread -
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.mail.mailman.user/74167
and read about the previous discussion on it by some members.
Since captcha back then was easier to break, it might not have been a
profitable feature, according to the thread.
But with the new recaptcha, I would like to know if the stand is the same.


There are a number of blind Mailman Admins out here, including 
myself, and many thousands of b lind or visually impaired users, for 
whom CAPTCHA can be a problem. We hate pictures of words and numbers, 
and are in favor of no CAPTCHA!


Dave




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Re: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support

[David Andrews]

At 08:20 PM 3/5/2016, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Christian Schoepplein writes:
 > On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 12:08:38 > About captchas. If they are 
implemented, they would have to be

 > > optional in my opinion as they would
 > > require signing up for a token with the captcha provider.
 >
 > Yes, if captchas really have to be implemented, please, please make
 > them optional! For example many blind people are using mailman and
 > captchas are a nightmare for them and from the point of view
 > regarding accessibility in general.

Be reassured: we understand (but easily forget, so feel free to remind
us!)

What is the opinion of audio captchas?  That is, do they actually
work, and are they a significant inconvenience even if they are at
least in theory possible to use for blind persons?  Google ReCAPTCHA
implements an audio recaptcha option, for example.


Some audio CAPTCHA's are ok, some are virtually impossible to 
decipher. Also, audio CAPTCHAs do not work at all for deaf-blind persons.


So, while it depends, audio CAPTCHA is a mixed experience at best, 
and impossible at worst.


Dave




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Re: [Mailman-Developers] [Project Discussion] Assigining Default Priority levels to user tasks

[David Andrews]

At 03:13 PM 5/23/2015, Bhavesh Goyal wrote:

Brief Introduction to Related Project content:

The To - Do List proposed in the project
https://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/project/details/google/gsoc2015/bhaveshgoyal093/5676830073815040,
'Dashboard for Admins' gives the admin, a list of pending tasks which
require his immediate attention. The tasks particularly include those of
'Held Messages' (pending for moderation) and 'Subscription Requests'.

Now, among the pile of pending tasks, some Tasks may be of higher
importance than the others to the admin which he can quickly mark to get
them completed first, the next time he sets up to clear the pending list.
Thus color supported Priority Levels have been given and can be set with
each of the tasks, sorting the important ones out from others.


Please don't make color as the only way priorities are conveyed.  A 
sizable percentage of the population, particularly males, are color 
blind, and others are blind and won't see the colors.


Dave




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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Javascript Client for Mailman

[David Andrews]

At 01:51 AM 3/25/2015, Ana Badescu wrote:

Hello,

While writing my proposal I came across 2 important issues related to the
Javascript Client for the Mailman project that have yet to be raised:






2. I'd also like to make part of the project, a node.js application that
uses the Mailman Javascript client and offers all the functionality
Postorious does. Is that a good idea? This doesn't make the scope of the
project too large or unattainable.


Please remember that anything you develop should be accessible to 
disabled persons.  This is possible with JAVA generally, but means 
some planning, using the right libraries etc.



Dave




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Re: [Mailman-Developers] UI for Mailman 3.0 update

[David Andrews]

At 02:50 PM 6/6/2010, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:


Great. I can see and I need to use my imagination to figure what a _real
good_ interface for visually imapaired people looks like. Better to have
people who really know from first hand experience what to look out for.

This said I think the interface should also be better accessible for deaf
people. I've learned deaf people experience problems with complex sentences.
We should consider that too and other aspects.



Well, you probably wouldn't like the look or feel of an interface I 
would design for myself as a blind person.  No danger of having to 
suffer through it anyway, as I am not a developer.  I think I started 
this thread a couple days ago, and my point was, and is, that if WCAG 
2.0 guidelines are followed, the UI can look however you guys want, 
but still meet the needs of blind and other disabled users -- 
including the deaf.


I am not a developer -- but run a bunch of lists and have a little 
experience at web site accessibility testing and would be pleased to 
help out in that area in any way I can.


Dave




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Re: [Mailman-Developers] UI for Mailman 3.0 update

[David Andrews]

At 07:29 AM 6/3/2010, Anna Granudd wrote:

Hi,
my name is Anna and I'm participating in GSoC for Systers where my project
this summer is to develop a new UI for Mailman 3.0 as well as a UI extension
for Systers who are running a customized version of Mailman. The UI will be
written as an app in Django. Together with my mentor Florian we've discussed
some general matters regarding the UI and the most recent concern adding a
database for it. We figured it might be good to use the core db only for the
standard UI with which we'll communicate through the rest-client and for
organizations wishing to customize the UI, such as Systers, we'll let them
add a UI db.
Other things we've discussed was the number of apps for the UI, if we should
use only one or if we should separate it into, for instance, one app for the
user UI's and one for the admin UI, or possibly split it up even more.
We've gathered all our thoughts on
http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Web+Interface+Status and now we'd like to
get some feedback from you people as well as to find out if you have other
opinions or ideas for us. I/we would really appreciate your help on this.



I hope that you plan on following WCAG 2.0 standards!  There are 
plenty of moderators and Admins who are blind or have other 
disabilities and still want to keep using the software!


Dave


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain

[David Andrews]

At 11:25 PM 4/1/2010, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

David Andrews writes:

  Some other list software, I believe, has a feature that sends out a
  canned message once a month, such as list rules.  I would like to see
  this in MM3

-1.  This is mission creep.  A cron job will serve perfectly well.

Something that assists in setting up such cron jobs (and/or
generalizes to whatever weirdness Windows does instead of cron jobs)
would be good as a contrib module, of course.

I disagree, not everyone who runs a list has access to the command 
line, and/or the means or ability to set up a Cron Job, so something 
through the Web UI would be useful!


Dave


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain

[David Andrews]

At 03:01 PM 4/1/2010, Mark Sapiro wrote:

s...@pobox.com wrote:

At any rate, that solves one problem but creates another, right?  In MM3 how
will you weed out bad email addresses?  Again, this may already be accounted
for somehow.  If so, I'd be happy to learn how you do it without attempting
to send email to an address then process the bounces.


If the list is active and the user's delivery is enabled, The list's
bounce processing should take care of ultimately removing bouncing
members. If it doesn't, the list's bounce processing needs to be
adjusted.

The dead addresses of concern, are those for which the user or admin
disabled delivery before the address died. We have talked about some
kind of periodic mailing from the list to all members. If we have such
a thing, a bounce of that mail could identify such addresses.



Some other list software, I believe, has a feature that sends out a 
canned message once a month, such as list rules.  I would like to see 
this in MM3 as I would like to send people the rules once a month, 
and not all my lists are that active, but still need to be in place 
and used occasionally.


Dave




--
Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] The Philosophy of Web Use.

[David Andrews]

On Jul 7, 2006, at 12:08 AM, Brad Knowles wrote:


OTOH, I've used Linux and OSX, and before that NeXT, Solaris and
various Unixes for (unfortunately, way :) longer than there's been a
web, and except for the Windows programming I do at work, haven't
ever used IE for any substantial amount of time.  I'm not excusing
poor sites or Windows-specific sites, but for the most part, these
days most sites are at least usable with Firefox on various
platforms.  (The one sole recent exception was the SQLAlchemy doc
pages which gave Firefox fits but rendered just fine in Safari -- and
I'm sure those guys didn't tailor their pages for IE.).  Yeah, you
hit the occasional WMV or ActiveX laden site, but I'm much more
bugged by the Flash-only sites that are an avoidable annoyance for
me, but I can imagine are a scream-out-loud frustration for screen
reader based users.


As a screen reader person I will say that Flash-only can be made to 
work, there is accessible flash, but it is rarely done.  If it isn't 
implemented, a site can be useless, however you can do a good job, my 
department did a whole web training thing in accessible flash, and it 
works fine for blind users -- which is good since

  Now, I know that you're not that kind of person, and you will actively
  test your work with MacOS X/Safari, and as many other browser/OS
  platforms
  you can.  But the more complexity that is built into the user
  interface,
  the higher the likelihood is that something will accidentally happen
  somewhere to seriously break something for someone else.

Actually, I think skilled and judicious use of modern web technology
can help to /reduce/ the complexity of Mailman's interface.
Something I constantly struggle with is the plethora of configuration
variables (both via the web u/i and in mm_cfg.py) that makes the
system highly complicated.  I would love to have a self-discoverable
interface, or an interface that can be used to selectively reveal
just the parts you're interested.

- -Barry

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[Mailman-Developers] Turning off dynamic JavaScript

[David Andrews]

There is MSAA, Microsoft Active Accessibility, and a replacement with Vista, I 
believe, but don't remember what it is called.  Don't know if they can be used 
by style sheets, but inquiry to [EMAIL PROTECTED] might be in order.

Dave

At 12:45 PM 7/4/2006, you wrote:
Gentlebeings,

I have read a depressing and recent article suggesting that DOM 
manipulations are invisible to most screen readers [1]. There are some 
workarounds suggested in [2], but for the most part it looks like 
dangerous territory.

What's worse, there seems to be no way to detect screen readers 
reliably. I am determined to provide some JavaScript in the 'standard' 
interface, as it will make for enhanced ease-of-use for those sighted 
people using a modern browser.

(I think it would be good for screen readers, too, if there was just 
some way for me to control/hint the focus of the screen reader, but at 
the moment there doesn't seem to be. Screen readers don't even seem to 
support an aural/speech stylesheet, much less provide some JavaScript 
object that lets me know I'm in one.)

I found a page (that is eluding me at the moment) detailing a method for 
showing content to screen readers yet hiding it from 'regular' clients. 
I was thinking of adding a Screen Reader Support On link to the top of 
all pages that would only show to screen readers; does this seem like a 
good approach?

Note that this would be in *addition* to the ability to get a JS-free 
version of the interface by using a different URL prefix for any user 
agent that doesn't want the JS action.

~ethan

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[Mailman-Developers] Fwd: Re: Turning off dynamic JavaScript

[David Andrews]

I believe there is a screen reader present flag in Windows, don't know any 
more than that.

Dave

At 12:59 PM 7/4/2006, you wrote:
Ethan wrote:

 Note that this would be in *addition* to the ability to get a JS-free
 version of the interface by using a different URL prefix for any user
 agent that doesn't want the JS action.

Speaking only for myself, this is not the kind of approach I'd like to see
used.  I'd prefer to see the web application auto-detect that JavaScript
is not available, and therefore to automatically present the appropriate
non-JavaScript interface.  Likewise, it should auto-detect that there is a
screen reader being used, and present the appropriate screen reader
compatible interface.

Of course, the manual options should always be there, but if we're forcing
the user to manually select a different page in order to get away from the
JavaScript stuff, then I think we're doing something wrong.

-- 
Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

 -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
 Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See http://www.lopsa.org/.
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Turning off dynamic JavaScript

[David Andrews]

I believe that the W3C standards require that Javascript and other components 
fail gracefully, so the point could be made, for things link Lynx and Links 
that a graceful degrade would also take care of us screen reader users.  
Anything specific you write for us, while appreciated, is also something that 
may have to be kept up separately, and thus may not be.

Dave

At 01:06 PM 7/4/2006, you wrote:
Brad Knowles wrote:

 Speaking only for myself, this is not the kind of approach I'd like to see
 used.  I'd prefer to see the web application auto-detect that JavaScript
 is not available, and therefore to automatically present the appropriate
 non-JavaScript interface. 

I will do this for browsers not employing JavaScript. Screen readers 
employ JavaScript and provide no indication what they do/do not provide 
feedback to the user for.

 Likewise, it should auto-detect that there is a
 screen reader being used, and present the appropriate screen reader
 compatible interface.

This is an admirable goal. One screen reader in semi-common use is IE 
6 via Jaws; another one is Safari with OS X reading turned on.

They present to me no handle, user-agent or otherwise, indicating 
they're being spoken rather than seen.

 Of course, the manual options should always be there, but if we're forcing
 the user to manually select a different page in order to get away from the
 JavaScript stuff, then I think we're doing something wrong.

I agree that it is an Ugly Hack; In this case I think the screen readers 
are misbehaved, but there's not a lot I can do about that.

~ethan fremen

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Accessibility Testing Tools (was Re: Hi! I'll be your intern for the summer :))

[David Andrews]

If you have OSX10.4 Tiger there is a built-in screen reader called Voice Over.  
I believe it is command-F5 to bring it up, but could be wrong there.  I have 
only used it briefly, and not at all with the web, but could probably get 
access to a machine at work.

Dave

At 11:54 AM 6/29/2006, emf wrote:
Laura Carlson wrote:

 David Andrews already mentioned the demo versions of JAWS and 
 Window-Eyes [1].

I'll use the firefox jawsy thing and see what I can do past that point 
once I get windows on this box.

 Home Page Reader [3] is also a good tool for web developers and 
 designers who are looking to try out a speaking browser.

I think I can make OS X read pages, too, so I'll poke into that.

 One of the tools that I have my students use is to test forms is the 
 WAVE. [5]  It will spot violations like missing labels, labels not 
 associated with inputs, empty labels, etc. and notify you with icons. 
 [6]

Great! I will use that and Cynthia.

 There's a great little Colour Contrast Analyser Firefox Extension [8] 

OOh, neat! I heart firefox's extensibility. I already use color-scheme 
generators (and stay away from shade-changes only), but this will be a 
help, as I happen to be a boy blessed with a fully functioning X 
chromosome and have no colour blindness.

~ethan
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[Mailman-Developers] Fwd: Re: Hi! I'll be your intern for the summer :)

[David Andrews]

Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:50:57 -0500
To: emf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: David Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] Hi! I'll be your intern for the summer :)

Ethan Freeman Said:
Thanks for all the references. If you know of a way that I can actually 
test JAWS or another screen reader, I would be grateful for the pointer.

~ethan fremen

Hi:

I am a blind guy who runs a bunch of lists who is hanging out here, just for 
this.  I will be happy to help you test your pages.  Also, you can download 
demo versions of JAWS http://www.freedomscientific.com and Window-Eyes 
http://www.gwmicro.com

However, unless you are an experienced user, there can be dangers in sighted 
guys doing this kind oftesting.  I spent half an hour on the phone one day 
trying to explain to a developer how you entered data into a web form, and why 
it was different than from him and his mouse.  Some of the cues are pretty 
subtle, and unless you are used to them you might not realize they aren't 
there if things are kind of sort of working.

Dave

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