[Mailman-Developers] Re: GSoC 2021 ideas

[Terri Oda]

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 6:28 PM Abhilash Raj  wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 4, 2021, at 12:49 PM, Terri Oda wrote:
> > 1. Seamless archive converter for 2.1 -> 3.*
>
> This sounds like a very nice idea! How are you thinking of associating
> the web URLs (basically, number of the page I guess?) to Email entries
> in Hyperkitty since I don't see the web pages having Message-ID.
>

If we have mbox files, I think you can get the message-id from there.  if
you don't, as I said, it's a boring scraping and text comparison job, but
it's not infeasible.  I'm not terribly picky about how it's done, but the
friend who asked about this also has tentatively pledged data (and likely
some user feedback on the results and how things work) so ideally a student
would get some good direct feedback from at least one organization with a
number of archives to convert.


> > 2. Old mailman "skin" for postorius
> Is this intended to be like a CSS refresh or like re-write the interface
> kind
> of project? I am thinking it might be more of the former than latter,
> which
> might be a much bigger project.
>

More the former, since projects this year are 175hours instead of 350 (half
time or flextime work instead of full-time).  I think it will be more than
CSS, because we moved a number of options around in an attempt to improve
the grouping, so you might need to change the django page templates if you
wanted the old groupings to work.  And there's probably a few other design
decisions that need to be revisited.   Plus it would be nice to do an
accessibility review on the "skin" which might result in needing additional
improvements.


> Another idea that I've been thinking is supporting User management in
> Postorius. It would list all registered Users in Django & Core along with
> their Addresses and perhaps Subscriptions. If time permits, allow doing
> some actions on user's behalf like adding a new address, verifying a new
> address, deleting the User and all their subscriptions etc.
>

Sounds handy!
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[Mailman-Developers] Re: GSoC 2021 org applications

[Terri Oda]

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:13 PM Stephen J. Turnbull <
turnbull.stephen...@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:

> Terri, in the past you've allowed rejected orgs to apply as Python
> suborgs.  Did that work out ok?  Do you expect to have that policy
> again this year?


Yes, that's the policy again this year! I try to be explicit about it so we
have a deadline for folk who prefer to be a sub-org or just want to be
listed on our ideas page right away (Feb 12th this year) and a later one
for folk who put in separate applications but didn't make the selection cut
(March 16 this year).  As always, we aren't guaranteed to take every failed
applicant, but we'll at least review ideas pages and give a second shot. :)
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[Mailman-Developers] Re: GSoC 2021 ideas

[Terri Oda]

On Tue., Jan. 5, 2021, 1:10 p.m. Sam Kuper, 
wrote:

> Thanks for reading this far.  And if I was mistaken (or out of date)
> about Postorius requiring JavaScript, I would be very happy to stand
> corrected.
>

Having the postorious interface work without JavaScript was one of our
original design goals, because of the problems with JavaScript and screen
readers. So if it doesn't work without js, please file bugs with specific
areas that aren't working. Usability for screen readers and others who
can't use js will always be important.

There is JavaScript, but it was intended for bonus helper stuff like "sort
this list by this column" and "select all" and should be limited to that
(and i think the controls for that were supposed to vanish when js was
unavailable)

That said, I haven't been very involved with mailman since I took off time
while pregnant, so it's possible the folk in charge have added stuff since
I last did an accessibility audit, I think in 2017 or so?

 Terri

>
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[Mailman-Developers] GSoC 2021 ideas

[Terri Oda]

Happy new year everyone!

I'm starting to prep Python for GSoC 2021, and I wanted to issue the 
usual invitation that we'd be happy to have Mailman as a sub-org if 
anyone wants to do GSoC this year.  (Mailman's been fine as a separate 
org, but I have to do the paperwork for Python anyhow so I figured I'd 
offer if there's interest but no one wants to cover the admin side of 
things.)


Also, I have two mailman related ideas!

1. Seamless archive converter for 2.1 -> 3.*

A friend was grousing that there was no "nice" way to retain old archive 
urls without keeping a static copy of things, and it got me to thinking 
that it would definitely be possible to build something that handled the 
old urls and redirected or made them work seamlessly, but we didn't do 
it because parsing the old archives basically requires you to scrape 
them because otherwise we couldn't guarantee that the urls would be 
stable from a re-parsed mbox.


It's boring and finicky web scraping work to associate the old url and 
do the right things to make it work seamlessly in hyperkitty, but 
probably not too hard, so I was thinking that it might be suitable for a 
GSoC student.


2. Old mailman "skin" for postorius

Make mailman look like the 2.1 interface for people who really love the 
old system.   There's a few options that would be different, but the 
goal would be to make it pretty much look the same only with a few 
options changed, for people who are very change adverse.  We had 
intended for it to be *possible* to reskin Postorius, but I don't think 
too many people have done it, so this would be a test to see how doable 
that is and probably fix any underlying issues that make reskinning the 
interface hard. Honestly, we could also have a student do a brand new 
skin if we had someone who loved UI design, but I suspect replicating 
the old interface would be less work, and since this year's GSoC hours 
have been cut in half, i'd rather start with something easier.



I've been out of mailman dev for 3 years, so I'm probably not the ideal 
mentor, but I'm up for helping on either of those if Mailman as a whole 
is interested in doing the GSoC thing this year.



 Terri


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[Mailman-Developers] Re: GSoC deadlines approaching fast!

[Terri Oda]

Sent you an invite to the system, so you should be able to log in now!

Do any of the other core devs want one to help evaluate proposals? Barry? 
Florian? Aurelian?
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[Mailman-Developers] Re: GSoC deadlines approaching fast!

[Terri Oda]

On January 31, 2019 11:43:52 a.m. PST, "Stephen J. Turnbull" 
 wrote:
>Hey all
>
>We need to decide if we're going to go under the PSF umbrella or if we
>want to go standalone.

I recommend trying standalone and using the psf as a backup, as usual, but 
we're happy to have you either way. If you need me to backup org admin for 
mailman, send the request to ostr...@gmail.com because i can't org admin two 
orgs from the same account. (My second account is the Google approved solution)

>The real advantages to the standalone are two tickets (most expenses
>paid by Google) to the Mentor Summit, and the $500/student gift to
>Mailman.  But it's more work and lower chance of acceptance.

Honestly, it's not much more work (just one more form of answers for Google) 
and your chance of acceptance is still moderately high. Scuttlebutt is that 
most rejected orgs have terrible ideas pages, and Python doesn't allow that 
anyhow. Stephen, you can see the answers Python gave in the shared Google drive 
from previous years if you need to crib from something.

>For PSF, we need to have project and idea pages up by Monday IIRC.  I
>think Google's deadline is a couple days later.

It's possible you have some sway with the PSF org admin team and could get away 
with being late with us. ;) But we do have students looking already so sooner 
is better!
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Migrating Postorius and Hyperkitty to Python 3

[Terri Oda]

What's the state for Centos? I think it was the last likely distro we cared 
about with old python needs, but I'm not sure core supports it at all any more.


On October 1, 2017 2:12:46 PM PDT, Abhilash Raj  wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>Mailman uses Django web framework for the web based frontends,
>Postorius
>- The Official UI, and Hyperkitty - The official Archiver. They are
>both
>Django "apps" which means that they can be plugged into any other
>existing Django "project" (aka Django "installation") to work alongside
>other apps that people might be running.
>
>Currently, both the Django apps we have are Python 2 only, we have
>talked about moving to Python 3 but we decided we want it to be
>bilingual (support both 2 & 3). The reason we decided that was because
>if people would want to embed Postorius & Hyperkitty in their
>installations, they need to be able to run it under whatever python
>versions they are using.
>
>I want to revisit this assumption for being bilingual. Currently, there
>is no supported version of Django which doesn't support Python 3.
>Starting from v2.0, set to release in December 2017, Django is going to
>drop Python2 support. Now, that doesn't mean no one can run Django
>under
>Python2, 1.11 (LTS version) supports Python2 and will be supported
>probably till Python 2 is supported (April 2020 according to [1]).
>
>I believe that our (limited) development efforts would be best utilized
>if we just drop the support for Python 2 in Postorius & Hyperkitty
>instead of trying to be bilingual. Any day one of our dependencies may
>decide to do the same, and we would have to then use Python 3 anyway.
>Also, dropping Python 2 support doesn't seem like a lot of pain for
>anyone, you just need another instance of Django running, which is not
>*that* hard using uwsgi (in Emperor mode). I believe most of our
>dependencies should support Python 3, or should have a good enough
>replacement if it doesn't.
>
>
>Thoughts?
>
>[1]: https://www.djangoproject.com/download/
>
>-- 
>  Abhilash Raj
>  maxk...@asynchronous.in
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[Mailman-Developers] Postorius and MRs for 3.1

[Terri Oda]

Hi Florian,

Your turn for the "last chance to tag things for 3.1" email now that 
Aurelien's weighed in. ;)  (I'm cc'ing the rest of mailman-developers in 
case anyone else wants to advocate for a bug too...)


I *think* we've got 3.1 tagged appropriately, which means that the 
unicode bug is the last big one, and I'd like to get the default 
preferences fixed for good (currently they display correctly but can't 
save).  Do you have anything else that we should look at before we push 
out RC1?


Also, if you have a chance, can you look at
https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/merge_requests/159/

I put a question about address-based preferences and mailmanclient in 
there for you, but I could also use a second look for "what's the best 
way to fix it so these save properly?" if you have a chance.  I've 
broken the django magic and need to override the save method I think.


 Terri
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[Mailman-Developers] Encrypted lists are still a valid GSoC project, in case you were wondering.

[Terri Oda]

On 2017-03-22 6:27 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

I should state for the record that my personal interest in this feature isn't
so much encrypted mailing lists per se, but the architectural and design
pressure it will put on Mailman 3, and our responses to that.  Encrypted lists
are the kinds of things I want to make possible with Mailman 3, so the APIs,
hooks, configurations, and plugins that would be needed to implement encrypted
lists (assuming, IMHO correctly that they won't be integrated into the core)
will be of use to others who want to do Interesting Things with mailing lists.


I just want to pull this out and make sure students have seen it, 
because I know a lot of folk will see a discussion like the one we've 
had on the challenges and assume that "this is hard to do" means "this 
project is a waste of time and I should find another org to work with." 
And that's not true at all!


As Barry says, this is an interesting project for Mailman for many 
reasons that have nothing to do with encryption and everything to do 
with how to build a moderately complex system that hooks into Mailman. 
Those reasons are still valid regardless of how you feel about 
encryption. :)


More than that, GSoC's goal is generally *not* that students produce 
perfect workable code (you can sort of tell this by the fact that the 
code doesn't even have to be used by the organization providing 
mentors!) but rather to get students experience working in open source 
communities, learning new architectures, and working on real-world 
problems.  Again, even if everyone everywhere is compromised, this is an 
interesting enough problem that meets all those other needs. When 
Stephen floated this idea, I thought it was great because on top of 
learning about mailman, it gives students a chance to work in a 
challenging security problem as well. Getting encryption even partially 
right is a thing that developers struggle with (my day job involves 
helping open source dev teams understand security) and a little 
experience tends to go a long way when it comes to future understanding 
of threat models and other key concepts in defining security.


It's also worth noting that one of the reasons this was chosen was also 
that this *isnt* an urgently-needed release-blocking feature for 
Mailman, but rather a "nice to have" that someone can work on without 
quite as much pressure.  Again, this is great for a student project in 
ways that it might not be ideal for a core developer.


Basically, don't just read "Why Johnny Can't Encrypt" [1] and assume the 
problem of encrypted is dead and never will be solved.  As my PhD 
supervisor used to say "you should look at impossible, insolvable 
problems as research opportunities rather than dead ends.  That's 
science." :)



[1] 
https://www.usenix.org/conference/8th-usenix-security-symposium/why-johnny-cant-encrypt-usability-evaluation-pgp-50


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC Help Wanted

[Terri Oda]

On 2017-03-24 2:55 AM, Muhammad Rizvi wrote:

I want to let you that I want to take part in Python Organization but don’t
exactly know what to do. The thing that I came to know so far is that,
first I have to find a mentor but don’t know from where I can contact a
mentor, secondly I have to submit a proposal but what proposal should I
give?


You've actually done it!  Posting to the public mailing list for a 
Python sub-org is exactly how you contact a mentor.  This year, 
Mailman's only running one project, the encrypted lists one, and the 
primary person for that is Stephen, but in general we prefer if students 
ask questions in public so that the community and other students get the 
benefits of answers.  :)


Stephen's given some pretty precise instructions on what he wants in a 
proposal on the mailman ideas page, and as I said we're only planning 
one project this year so it needs to be related to encrypted lists 
unless you can get someone excited enough about another idea that you 
have that they're willing to offer to be a primary mentor for that. 
Anything other than encrypted lists will be a hard sell this year, 
though, since most of us need the time off for regular mailman 
development or other projects!


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] What characters should be allowed in listnames

[Terri Oda]

On February 15, 2017 8:03:33 AM GMT+05:30, Mark Sapiro  wrote:
>On 02/14/2017 10:52 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>> Mark Sapiro writes:
>> 
>>  > I'd like feedback on this. What are your thoughts on what
>characters
>>  > should be allowed in list names?
>> 
>> Uh, RFC 6532 
>
>
>That doesn't really address my question. That has to do with
>internationalized email addresses. Granted the listname must be a valid
>local part of an email address, but that doesn't mean every valid local
>part has to be a valid list name.
>
>In particular, the issue that raises this question is a list name
>containing a slash. while 'my/l...@example.com' is a legal email
>address, https://lists.example.com/mailman3/lists/my/list.example.com/
>is not a URL which will work in Postorius.
>
My gut feeling is that allowing slashes is going to lead to confusing side 
effects with mail clients and even potential security bugs down the road, and 
we should just not do it unless there's a clear need to support slashes.

But that's really just a feeling based on exploit experience, where "be 
conservative in what you expect" is best practice. It doesn't speak to what the 
standards say or what's doable.

 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3 Dockerfile

[Terri Oda]

Well, my name is all over it so I'm not sure it's true that there's no more 
obvious contact person than this list... But this list is the correct place, 
yes. :)

I think we have a few better dockerfiles out in the community now, so maybe 
folk who've set them up would like to chime in? 

 Terri

On January 26, 2017 8:32:48 AM PST, Stephan Wehner  
wrote:
>I've been working with the Dockerfile at
>
>https://wiki.list.org/DEV/Mailman%203.0/Mailman%203.0%20Suite%20Dockerfile
>
>for setting up Mailman 3.
>
>The page doesn't say who to contact.
>
>Is this mailing list a good place to ask questions about where I'm
>stuck?
>
>Stephan
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] [MM3-users] Re: Mailman 3.1 beta coming soon

[Terri Oda]

On 2016-12-12 12:29 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Barry Warsaw writes:

 > >I can also work on Postorius. Also in this vein I have a question.
 > >Should the DMARC settings be added to the Alter Messages tab in the List
 > >Settings view or would it be better to have a separate DMARC Mitigations
 > >tab.
 >
 > My gut reaction is to add a separate DMARC Mitigations tab, but Florian and
 > Terri have final say I think.

I would find it more natural to have "Posting Policy" (which would
include posting filters on size and list membership, as well as
message alterations such as removing .exe files and enforcing plain
text by removing or rendering HTML parts), and "Malware Mitigation",
which would include IP, domain, and mailbox filters as well as DMARC.
I think DMARC mitigation is probably too special to deserve its own
tab.


Alter messages tab works for me, but DMARC is kind of a big enough deal 
(as far as mail delivery goes) and sufficiently different that I agree 
with Mark that it's not unreasonable to give it a separate tab.   I'd be 
willing to start it on its own and move it if we're getting too 
cluttered later, as long as we document it in the release notes when we 
do. Florian, what do you think?



Probably this is way too much reorganization to do at this point, but
I'd like to keep this point in mind.  We are already getting reports
that configuration options are hard to find just because it's
different from Mailman 2.  I suspect that the REST API is sufficiently
flexible and regular that we'll be tempted to proliferate options, so
let's try to keep them organized.


We also get reports that mailman 2.1 options are hard to find -- I think 
I personally help someone find something at least once a month (on irc, 
in person, or by email) for the past decade. :)  I imagine Mark has 
answered a lot more of those than I have.


The big thing I want is good documentation here.  There's never going to 
be an organization that works for everyone, but an easily searchable 
document with all the options would make a big difference.  I only got 
to that level with the user docs not the list admin docs in 2.1


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3.1 beta coming soon

[Terri Oda]

On 2016-12-08 9:45 AM, Florian Fuchs wrote:
 you have a traceback somewhere? If you're logging in for the first

time, it *might* have to do with allauth trying to verify your email
address by sending you an confirmation email (which probably fails if
you don't have smtp set up on your mac).

If that's the case, we should probably try to catch this condition and
display a useful error message instead of just letting it break.


The email *would* make sense, and would explain why I saw the error more 
often associated with macs.  If that's the case it sounds like an error 
that should be caught and explained.  I'll file a bug and dump the 
traceback there.


 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3.1 beta coming soon

[Terri Oda]

On 2016-12-03 12:22 PM, Florian Fuchs wrote:

I did some manual integration testing today
(core+mailmanclient+postorius) which looked fine so far. I didn't get
to test HyperKitty and the bundler though, so any help testing those
would be very much appreciated. I will have some more time tomorrow.


I tried to do some testing based on these wiki instructions last weekend
https://wiki.list.org/HyperKitty/DevelopmentSetupGuide

and hit a "[Errno 61] Connection refused" issue when attempting to log 
in to Postorius.  I suspect it might be an issue with the mac, since 
googling for the error (it's a django one) seems to find a lot of people 
on macs with problems, but I didn't manage to narrow it down more than 
that to make a useful bug report.


I did set up a new linux install on another machine to work on next, 
though, so I may have something else to say on that front tomorrow.


 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Request to process merge requests faster

[Terri Oda]

Sorry it's been such a demotivating experience for you.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I had some big life events this 
summer, both expected and unexpected, happy and very sad, and have been 
too tapped out to handle merge requests at anything resembling a 
reasonable speed.  Florian and I do need to sit down and talk about how 
to improve things going forwards, but we've barely had time to chat as 
friends let alone make grand decisions about the project or find another 
maintainer whose opinion we value.  I expect things to get better over 
the next few months as I start to get my footing under me again and 
figure out my new schedules, but it's going to be a while before we find 
a way to handle merge requests at the speed I'd like to have them handled.


I know it's not the answer you want to hear, and I would not blame you 
in the slightest if you want to find another project to contribute to 
with more active maintainers.  Please don't feel bad about finding a 
more active use of your time.  If you need help finding another project, 
or want an introduction to any of the folk from other projects who 
participate in GSoC under the Python Software Foundation, please don't 
hesitate to ask!


 Terri


On 2016-09-12 3:43 PM, Simon Hanna wrote:

Hi,

I know all core devs are volunteers, and no one is maintaing the Mailman
projects full-time, but it's a little frustrating to have your merge
request open for a couple of months without any/much reaction to it...

I try to keep my merge requests up to date and conflict-free, but having
to do this for a couple of months, while there is no clear reason why
it's not merged yet, is a little demotivating.

In Postorius there have been (and there still are) merge requests by new
contributors that were probably abandoned, because quite some time has
passed since their creation...

Simon

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Postorius issue tracker labels

[Terri Oda]

On 2016-06-04 3:23 PM, Simon Hanna wrote:



I'm not sure "rest" is the way it's currently being used either: it

might be

more useful to rename it to be like the wait-for-mailman tag to

indicate bugs

that occur due to mailmanclient.


'wait-for-mailman' is just a little weird given that we use the term
'mailman'
for the whole umbrella project.  'wait-for-core' is a little better but
it
doesn't accurately describe blockers on mailman.client.
'wait-for-api'?  I'm
also okay with leaving it as it us until/unless we figure out something
better.


In most cases I think we would have to wait for both core and mailmanclient. 
Thats why I don't think we need two labels for it.
In my opinion it would be better to have only one label and always link to an 
issue in mailmanclient and/or core


We actually changed it to be just "blocked" so it can refer to any thing 
we might be waiting on, including things just in client, things in core 
and client, and other issues, since that turned out to be useful for triage.


 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Postorius issue tracker labels

[Terri Oda]

On 2016-06-04 1:11 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Hi, all

I just went through the labels in the Postorius issue tracker

https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/labels

and documented the undocumented as well as changing a couple of
labels.  Comments very welcome.

There are two labels whose purpose I'm unclear on, "subscription" and
"ui".  I think "ui" should be split into "appearance" (CSS) and
"workflow" (what operations can be done from which forms).  If so, I
think "subscription" really should be merged into "workflow" (at least
the open issue should be).


It looks good to me, and I especially like the proposed UI split.

I think the "subscription" tag can go away: it was used to flag bugs 
related to subscribing and unsubscribing, but I don't think that's a 
super useful category in and of itself right now .


I'm not sure "rest" is the way it's currently being used either: it 
might be more useful to rename it to be like the wait-for-mailman tag to 
indicate bugs that occur due to mailmanclient.


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Postorius and verified email addresses

[Terri Oda]

On 2016-04-06 4:29 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

On Apr 07, 2016, at 12:26 AM, Simon Hanna wrote:


Short version: it supports both external (social) and internal (django) auth
systems and offers options to combine/switch between them . Allauth provides
Signals that I used to verify the addresses in Mailman.


I think we have to decide how and where addresses will be verified.  Are they
going to be via confirmations emailed by core or via Postorius?

I think the core has to support emailed confirmation messages because
Postorius is technically an optional component.  So if a site were to build
their own REST front-end, they'd at least want to allow the core to handle
email verifications without having to build that into their front-end.


I'd prefer core to do it, so that it's consistent regardless of 
front-end and there isn't duplicated work in every single web component 
for Mailman, which is one of the reasons I haven't reviewed any of the 
proposed Postorius code to do this.  (The other big one being that I 
need to do some research on auth libraries, because past experience has 
told me that I rarely agree with Simon. ;)  )


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Gitlab integration, GSOC'16

[Terri Oda]

On 2016-02-28 1:34 PM, aahan bhatt wrote:

Please explain about the gitlab integration in layman terms. I would like
to contribute to the project.


Gitlab integration can mean a lot of things, and we've left this 
particular project pretty open to see what people will suggest.


The tweet linked talks about moving a discussion from a mailing list to 
a bug tracker.  So imagine that you have a bunch of people discussing an 
issue on a mailing list and after a few posts someone says "hm, that 
configuration didn't work the way I expected, this sounds like a bug, 
maybe we should file it" -- we want a way to dump the whole discussion 
into a bug so when someone goes to fix it they have all the information. 
 You'd need to think a bit about privacy (were the mailing list posts 
public?  what about the bug tracker?) and relevance of information (what 
if I only want some of the posts?  what if I want to link the discussion 
but only provide a summary?) to go from the idea of "make it easier to 
file bugs using information from a mailing list discussion" to an actual 
workable interface for doing that, but that's the core of it.



If you want to understand the whole gitlab integration idea better 
beyond that one use case, try brainstorming a little bit about how the 
pieces could work together.  How could a mailing list integrate better 
with a bug tracker?  How could it integrate better with merge requests? 
 What information would people want to pass from one system to the 
other and why?


For an example you might want to take a look at idea #27 on this page: 
http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2012/03/14/mailman-brainstorm-2/





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[Mailman-Developers] Fwd: [Python-Dev] [ANNOUNCE] fuzzpy

[Terri Oda]

I know I was talking to someone a while ago about maybe doing some fuzz 
testing on Mailman.  If anyone's interested, this might be a tool worth 
trying out:



 Forwarded Message 
Subject:[Python-Dev] [ANNOUNCE] fuzzpy
Date:   Sun, 28 Feb 2016 21:44:39 -0600
From:   Brian Cain 
To: python-...@python.org



##

    *---*
    *    fuzzpy: CPython fuzz tester is now available   *
    *                                         Â
        *
    *                   Version 0.8               Â
    *
    *        https://bitbucket.org/ebadf/fuzzpy/        *
    *---*

I am pleased to announce the creation of a coverage-guided fuzz tester
for CPython.  It's a pretty small wrapper around LLVM's libFuzzer that
enables some powerful testing logic.  AFL (American Fuzzy Lop) is
another popular fuzzer lately -- libFuzzer is very similar in concept to
AFL.  From what I've read on list archives, Victor Stinner had
previously done some good fuzz testing on CPython using fusil.  This
project should expand on that concept.

I'd love to get feedback, suggestions, patches and anything else the
list can offer.


Q: What is fuzzpy for?
A: It's primarily for testing CPython itself, but could also be used for
individual python projects too.  Pure-python projects will be the
simplest to integrate at this point.  Also, interesting test cases
output by fuzzpy may end up being useful in testing others such as pypy,
pyston, etc.

Q: What is a fuzz tester?
A: It modifies inputs to a test case in order to find unique/rare failures.

Q: What does "coverage-guided" mean?
A: It means that libFuzzer is able to witness the specific code executed
as a result of a given test case.  It feeds this information back into
an engine to modify the test cases to optimize for coverage.

Q: How can I help?
A1: donate cycles: build the project and crank away on one of the
existing tests.  Relative to other common fuzzing, it's awfully slow,
so consider throwing as many cycles as you can afford to.
A2: contribute tests: write a ~10-line python script that exercises a
feature that you think could benefit from fuzz testing.
A3: if there's interest, I can accept cryptocoin donations to purchase
cycles on a cloud server.


##


--
-Brian


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] an impossible need to address ?

[Terri Oda]

On 2016-01-21 1:47 AM, JFC Morfin wrote:

Hi!

I am a new comer on this list. I am an old cyberactivist and an
administrator of more than 100 mailman lists and I would need to operate
much more for a budled project trough a user/feature database. It means
a way (1) to set-up scores of same style mailing lists and (2) for a
person being a member of my directory to easiliy select the lists she
wants to attend or quit. My idea is to get it simple, non interfering
and robust by having an independent database used to generate an update
script on a cron basis and that scri^pt being run to create/update the
necessary mailman instances.


You could add this pretty easily in Mailman 3, which uses data 
structures that can handle that.  Basically, take a look at the 
postorius "subscription based preferences" page under "my settings", and 
all you'd need to do is add a column that allowed people to choose to 
subscribe or unsubscribe.  (you can right now turn mail delivery on/off 
and edit the other preferences, but not actually unsubscribe from that 
page.)


In Mailman 2, it's much harder, because the data structures are such 
that there's not really a concept of a user, so you'd have to fake it by 
going through each list, seeing if a given email address was in it, and 
collating all that information.  If you look at the code that runs when 
you click "list my other subscriptions" in the user options page, and 
that would give you a good idea of how it can be done.


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Getting Started

[Terri Oda]

On 2016-01-10 7:10 PM, Abhilash Raj wrote:

 After you think you know enough about
Mailman, you can then try to fix some small easy bugs in Mailman core or
any of its sister projects (Postorius - the Web UI, Hyperkitty - the
Archiver, Client - Python bindings). There might be less number or bugs
actually tagged "easy" or "beginner friendly", but you can explore other
bugs too. If you have any problems/questions, ask questions here or on
#mailman on Freenode(IRC).


Also, if you aren't finding bugs that suit you, you might want to 
consider adding tests.  Since our test suites are relatively young, 
there's definitely some common use-cases missing that you could write.


For example, the postorius tests can be found here:
https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/tree/master/src/postorius/tests

And here's a scenario without a test: What happens if the address you're 
trying to subscribe is on the banned list?  Answer, it should fail to 
subscribe you, and give an appropriate error message.  But if you look 
in ListSubscribeTest under

https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/blob/master/src/postorius/tests/test_forms.py
you'll see that we test invalid emails but not banned ones.

I've filed an issue for this here:
https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/issues/80
So if anyone wants to write this test case, you can claim that bug so 
everyone knows you're working on it!



Making test cases that would catch recent bugs is a good way to get 
started if you can't think of any missing test cases on your own, too:


Here's one that recently came up in a Postorius bug: what happens if you 
log in as a moderator using an alternative email address?  The user 
*should* still see the moderation interface, but due to the bug you 
didn't -- a test case could have caught this!


I leave checking to see if we have a test case for this and filing an 
issue if we don't as an exercise to the reader. ;)


 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC 2016 wiki page now up!

[Terri Oda]

Some of last year's page will totally be valid, for sure!  But there 
have definitely been changes, and some old ideas that no one's gotten 
excited about will likely be rotated out.


One big change is the switch to gitlab, which means some of our 
instructions have to change and it even affects some of the projects 
(there's one up there now for GitLab integration that used to be 
described as primarily about GitHub integration!)


 Terri



On 2016-01-05 3:35 AM, Rishab Jaju wrote:

Won't the ideas page for previous years be valid? Some projects from
previous years must still be incomplete, right?

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Terri Oda <te...@toybox.ca> wrote:


I set up an initial page for GSoC 2016 with Mailman:

http://wiki.list.org/DEV/Google_Summer_of_Code_2016

Students: Please take a look at the page and let us know if it has the
information you're looking for, other than project ideas (those are coming!)

Mentors: I put my name at the bottom so students know who to bug on IRC or
expect to hear from on the mailing lists, feel free to add your own!

Mentors and community members: Is anyone interested in doing a
brainstorming session for project ideas this weekend?

I'm thinking around 10-11am Pacific US on Sunday, which would be early
evening for the Europeans (7pm in Germany) and early afternoon (1pm) for
the US Eastern folk.  It's terrible for Japan and India, but we can do two
brainstorming sessions or you can try to get me to wake up earlier. ;)

  Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Website re-org?

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-12-26 9:32 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:


Although, I do like the "quick links" nature of the Documentation menu.  One
less click once you know where you want to go.

Maybe the docs.mailman3.org page can be linked from an "Overview" menu item?


I use those quick links enough that I'd like to keep them too. 
"overview" or "START HERE" at the top of the menu should solve the 
problem, though.


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] /opt vs traditional install [was: Mailman 3 production setup testbed]

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-12-12 3:32 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

Right.  There should be no hard-coded references; everything should be
configurable via the mailman.cfg file.


Yeah, no problems here.  In fact, the *production* setup includes things 
to divide out the directories appropriately, the problem was mostly that 
our instructions start with "unpack this somewhere" for the test setup, 
which mostly leaves people with a running mailman install in their home 
directories, sometimes to their surprise. ;)


Docs have been updated and I tested that it didn't cause weird behaviour 
to install, and the only problem was when I forgot to give myself write 
access to /opt/mailman before I began, which I think is more a me 
problem than a mailman-bundler documentation one.


 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Upgrading from Mailman 3.0 installed with mailman-bundler: sassc error

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-12-05 3:48 PM, Terri Oda wrote:

2. update mailman_web/development.py so that COMPRESS_PRECOMPILERS asks
for sass instead of sassc


Follow-up on this.  I tried this on a fresh mailman-bundler install and 
you do indeed see the same problem.  I changed the config in 
development.py and pushed my change, so hopefully people won't get hit 
by it going forwards.


... and I just realized I probably need to fix this in production.py as 
well.  phooey.  I'll go do that.


 Terri


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[Mailman-Developers] A list where no subscriber can post: can anyone spot the bad config?

[Terri Oda]

I've got a list where, for some reason, I can post, but no one else 
seems to be able to.


It *looks* like I can post because I was somehow in 
accept_these_nonmembers.  It's a list converted from Mailman 2.1, so I'm 
suspicious that it's some sort of cruft in the config.  I'm pasting in a 
mildly anonymized version of the config.  Can anyone spot anything that 
could be causing all messages to go to moderation?


This list is also on a mailman bundler install that may not have been 
updated correctly (aka I guessed and tried buildout on it), but the 
problems with posting predate that.  I think, honestly, that I'm at the 
point where I should dump the rosters and re-recreate all the lists on 
this machine.  (They're relatively small, all under 20 subscribers I think)



>>> pprint(vars(m))
{'_list_id': 'gf.lists.example.com',
 '_preferred_language': 'en',
 '_sa_instance_state': 0x7f3e5cf32828>,

 'accept_these_nonmembers': ['c...@example.com',
 'te...@toybox.ca',
 'd...@example.com',
 'j...@example.com',
 'a...@example.com',
 'v...@example.com'],
 'admin_immed_notify': True,
 'admin_notify_mchanges': True,
 'administrators': 0x7f3e5cf328d0>,

 'administrivia': False,
 'advertised': False,
 'allow_list_posts': True,
 'anonymous_list': False,
 'archive_policy': ,
 'autorespond_owner': ,
 'autorespond_postings': ,
 'autorespond_requests': ,
 'autoresponse_grace_period': datetime.timedelta(90),
 'autoresponse_owner_text': '',
 'autoresponse_postings_text': '',
 'autoresponse_request_text': '',
 'bounce_info_stale_after': datetime.timedelta(7),
 'bounce_matching_headers': '\n'
"# Lines that *start* with a '#' are 
comments.\n"

'to: fri...@public.com\n'
'message-id: relay.comanche.denmark.eu\n'
'from: l...@listme.com\n'
'from: .*@uplinkpro.com\n',
 'bounce_notify_owner_on_disable': True,
 'bounce_notify_owner_on_removal': True,
 'bounce_score_threshold': 5,
 'bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings': 3,
 'bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings_interval': datetime.timedelta(7),
 'collapse_alternatives': True,
 'convert_html_to_plaintext': True,
 'created_at': datetime.datetime(2014, 2, 12, 9, 30, 13, 418107),
 'default_member_action': ,
 'default_nonmember_action': ,
 'description': '',
 'digest_footer_uri': 'mailman:///$listname/$language/footer-generic.txt',
 'digest_header_uri': None,
 'digest_is_default': False,
 'digest_last_sent_at': datetime.datetime(2015, 11, 4, 18, 39, 56, 724986),
 'digest_members': 0x7f3e5cf32978>,

 'digest_send_periodic': True,
 'digest_size_threshold': 30.0,
 'digest_volume_frequency': ,
 'digestable': True,
 'discard_these_nonmembers': [],
 'display_name': 'Gf',
 'emergency': False,
 'encode_ascii_prefixes': False,
 'filter_action': ,
 'filter_content': False,
 'first_strip_reply_to': False,
 'footer_uri': 'mailman:///$listname/$language/footer-generic.txt',
 'forward_auto_discards': True,
 'forward_unrecognized_bounces_to': 
,

 'gateway_to_mail': False,
 'gateway_to_news': False,
 'goodbye_message_uri': '',
 'header_matches': [],
 'header_uri': None,
 'hold_these_nonmembers': [],
 'id': 1,
 'include_rfc2369_headers': True,
 'info': '',
 'last_post_at': datetime.datetime(2015, 8, 19, 8, 12, 6, 169075),
 'linked_newsgroup': '',
 'list_name': 'gf',
 'mail_host': 'lists.example.com',
 'max_days_to_hold': 0,
 'max_message_size': 0,
 'max_num_recipients': 10,
 'member_moderation_notice': '',
 'members': ,
 'mime_is_default_digest': False,
 'moderator_password': None,
 'moderators': 0x7f3e5cf32898>,

 'newsgroup_moderation': ,
 'next_digest_number': 1,
 'next_request_id': 25,
 'nntp_prefix_subject_too': True,
 'nondigestable': True,
 'nonmember_rejection_notice': '',
 'nonmembers': 0x7f3e5cf329e8>,

 'obscure_addresses': True,
 'owner_chain': 'default-owner-chain',
 'owner_pipeline': 'default-owner-pipeline',
 'owners': ,
 'personalize': ,
 'post_id': 1138,
 'posting_chain': 'default-posting-chain',
 'posting_pipeline': 'default-posting-pipeline',
 'process_bounces': True,
 'regular_members': 0x7f3e5cf32940>,

 'reject_these_nonmembers': [],
 'reply_goes_to_list': ,
 'reply_to_address': '',
 'require_explicit_destination': False,
 'respond_to_post_requests': True,
 'scrub_nondigest': False,
 'send_goodbye_message': True,
 'send_welcome_message': True,
 'subject_prefix': '[GF] ',
 'subscribers': 0x7f3e5cf329b0>,

 'subscription_policy': ,
 'topics': [],
 'topics_bodylines_limit': 5,
 'topics_enabled': False,
 'volume': 22,
 'welcome_message_uri': 'mailman:///$listname/$language/welcome.txt'}
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] MM3 trying to buildout / errors

[Terri Oda]

I don't know what's causing this, but I can confirm that it also happens 
in Fedora 21 with a just-cloned version of bundler.


On 2015-12-07 2:06 PM, fsanti...@garbage-juice.com wrote:

Why on centos 7 do i receive the following when attempting to build MM3
using the mailman-bundler package:

(venv)[mailman3@mail mailman-bundler-3.0.0]$ buildout
Creating directory '/downloads/mailman-bundler-3.0.0/eggs'.
Creating directory '/downloads/mailman-bundler-3.0.0/bin'.
Creating directory '/downloads/mailman-bundler-3.0.0/parts'.
Creating directory '/downloads/mailman-bundler-3.0.0/develop-eggs'.
Develop: '/downloads/mailman-bundler-3.0.0/.'
warning: no files found matching '*.in' under directory 'mailman_bundler'
warning: no files found matching '*.in' under directory 'deployment'
warning: no files found matching 'deployment/mailman-web.logrotate.conf'
Getting distribution for 'djangorecipe'.
warning: no previously-included files found matching 'Makefile'
warning: no previously-included files found matching '*.yml'
warning: no previously-included files found matching 'bootstrap.py'
Got djangorecipe 2.1.2.
Getting distribution for 'Django'.
no previously-included directories found matching
'django/contrib/admin/bin'
warning: no previously-included files matching '__pycache__' found under
directory '*'
   File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/django/conf/app_template/apps.py",
line 4
 class {{ camel_case_app_name }}Config(AppConfig):
   ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax

   File
"build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/django/conf/app_template/models.py", line 1
 {{ unicode_literals }}from django.db import models
  ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax

   File
"/downloads/mailman-bundler-3.0.0/eggs/tmpR9TGDA/Django-1.9-py2.7.egg/django/conf/app_template/apps.py",
line 4
 class {{ camel_case_app_name }}Config(AppConfig):
   ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax

   File
"/downloads/mailman-bundler-3.0.0/eggs/tmpR9TGDA/Django-1.9-py2.7.egg/django/conf/app_template/models.py",
line 1
 {{ unicode_literals }}from django.db import models
  ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax

Got Django 1.9.
Getting distribution for 'zc.recipe.egg>=2.0.0a3'.
Got zc.recipe.egg 2.0.3.
Getting distribution for 'collective.recipe.cmd'.
warning: no previously-included files matching '*.pyc' found anywhere in
distribution
warning: no previously-included files found matching 'bootstrap.py'
warning: no previously-included files found matching 'buildout.cfg'
warning: no previously-included files found matching 'tox.ini'
Got collective.recipe.cmd 0.11.
Getting distribution for 'z3c.recipe.filetemplate'.
Got z3c.recipe.filetemplate 2.2.0.
templates: No template found for these file names: *.in
While:
   Installing.
   Getting section templates.
   Initializing section templates.
Error: No template found for these file names: *.in
(venv)[mailman3@mail mailman-bundler-3.0.0]$


??

Thanks.

- Fabian S.
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Website re-org?

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-12-05 5:44 PM, Adam McGreggor wrote:

Since
we get a lot of GSoC student aspirants and folk who meet one of us
and think "these seem like nice people, maybe I'll make my first
open source contribution with them,"  I think there's good reason to
have something a bit more extensive than the existing CONTRIBUTE
stuff.


I imagine there's content that's available already, too, for My First
Project, for some reason, I'm thinking it's the sort of thing Mozilla
will have done a fair few iterations on (and will be nicely licensed).


Yes, such content exists, and we can link to some of it, but it's 
typically too general for a beginner who doesn't yet know how to handle 
that.   I spend literally hundreds of hours a year talking to students 
about where they get stuck as new contributors as part of my role as the 
Python GSoC coordinator, plus I hang out in the OpenHatch channel 
(they're one of many orgs that works to make the "how do i get started?" 
docs better) and I hear the "I got this far but then there were no 
architecture docs and I got overwhelmed" and variants on it a lot.


We need those architecture docs and that bridging stuff that goes from 
"how to github" to "what does mailman want in a pull request and how 
many tests do I need to include if I want to make Barry happy?"


It's a moot point to argue about it, anyhow.  Either I write this now 
for the website or I write it 40 times on IRC in February while the 
students complain that I'm not answering them fast enough, and I know 
which one I'd prefer! ;)


 Terri


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[Mailman-Developers] Upgrading from Mailman 3.0 installed with mailman-bundler: sassc error

[Terri Oda]

Hit an issue while upgrading mailman bundler that I'm just going to note 
here in case it affects anyone else.


After upgrading, I go to the web interface and try to log in only to get 
the following error:

“/bin/sh: sassc: command not found”

Which as a security person is the type of error message I least like 
seeing, but that's another story. ;)


This thankfully made me think of the last commit message in 
mailman-bundler, and the commits helped me figure out the rest:


https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman-bundler/commit/3d6555acd640d77f510b786e5ebae379c73cf6bd

the solution is
1. install rubygem-sass
2. update mailman_web/development.py so that COMPRESS_PRECOMPILERS asks 
for sass instead of sassc


I'm sure I'm going to find a few more bugs as I go, but I wanted to note 
that one before I forgot.


 Terri
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3 production setup testbed

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-11-24 7:32 AM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:

My confusion relates to the virtual environment that I create.  I am
running from the dedicated MM3 user I created, and I am looking to
expand the bundler from the user’s home directory in /home (for
example).  When I create the virtual environment, the files are all
held in this directory, and I really want the MM3 to be installed
system wide as this will be the only program running on this machine.
Do I even need to create a virtual environment at all?  Are there any
other guides relating to setting up MM3 for a purely production
environment with minimal dependencies?


I hit this same issue, as it were.  In my case, I knew exactly what was 
going on and why but, the problem arose when I needed other people to be 
able to do mailman-related stuff on the machine and it feels *really* 
weird to people to go into my home directory to restart mailman.


I think we should probably update the docs to suggest that you start by 
making a directory where you'd like mailman installed, rather than the 
way the guide is currently written where it sometimes surprises people 
that they have a live mailman install in their home directory (as 
opposed to the workflow people may be expecting which more like "I get a 
staged copy of my source in my home directory and then I type make 
install and it puts the executables and config files in expected places")


What would be a good default directory to have in the docs if I want to 
update them to suggest you start somewhere other than your home directory?


/opt/mailman

is probably the most appropriate one according to the LSB.

Does anyone want to make another suggestion before I update the docs to 
suggest that as a logical place to put your mailman stuff?  (I'll leave 
a note saying that if you're just trying stuff out then your home 
directory is fine, too.)


 Terri

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[Mailman-Developers] Website re-org?

[Terri Oda]

Abhilash did a lovely job on the new website, but while the layout has 
changed, a lot of the content hasn't.  And I'm not sure what we've got 
lines up very with what people want out of our website, so I'm thinking 
about re-organizing.


Right now, I suspect that when people visit list.org, these are the 
things they want to do:


1. Find out what mailman is.

We're good at that right now: there's good info on the main page and 
then links to features.


2. Find out how to get and install the latest version of Mailman.

Need improvement here.  Mailman 2.1 download links are good.  Mailman 3 
directs you to PyPI but then there's nothing explaining about how 
Mailman now is a suite and it's this bunch of packages.  Also nothing 
about how you can use mailman-bundler rather than trying to make the 
magic happen yourself.


I wrote something up and put in a merge request, pending someone 
proofreading it:

https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman-website/merge_requests/5

3. Find out how to report a bug

We kind of fail on this one, except if you want to report a security 
issue.  Again, this is more complex than it might seem since there's a 
bunch of different components.


4. Find the docs / get help with an issue.

The good: they're linked right there in the top bar.  The bad: is 
someone looking at this going to know they want the docs for postorius 
vs hyperkitty?  Will any of that make sense?  I think we might need a 
landing page here.


We do have a "help" link and the "wiki" link in this area too, but I 
think a landing page could bring this all together more nicely.


5. Find out how to contribute.

This is going to be especially gsoc students.  We've got some nice 
developer links and yeay, this is one of the pages that lists out all 
the parts of Mailman!   But we could really use a startup guide here.


We do have a nice Donate link for financial contributions, though.

6. Figure out how to get in touch with us.

This page is pretty decent, with the mailing lists and IRC and all. 
Maybe if we had a "how to report a bug" page it should be linked here, 
but otherwise full marks.


7. Learn more about Mailman

We've got some good resources: features, media, the code of conduct, 
etc.  But probably we should group this all together so that it's easier 
for people to find the other important things they want without wading 
through all these links.





I'd suggest we keep the top of page links as they are, since they're 
super useful to people who know what they're looking for already, and 
have the left side menu be more about the guides.


But I think we should replace all the links down the left-hand side of 
the page with links that match up with those goals, so the menu would 
probably look something like:


* About Mailman
- combine all the about mailman stuff here, although we also want to 
leave the main page as is, so there may be a bit of duplication here.

* Get Mailman
- Links to source code and install guides, high level description of 
what to do.

* Help and Documentation
- landing page with a link to the docs, wiki and mailing lists, with 
instructions.  Maybe some search boxes?  Userguides go here too.

* Report an issue / Contact Us
- landing page with reminder about reporting security bugs, links to bug 
trackers, mailing lists, irc

* How to Contribute
- new contributors guide here, prefaced by the basic source/gitlab links



Thoughts on better ways to set this up?  Other suggestions of things 
people often want out of our website?


 Terri
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Interest in contributing to opensource (mailman)

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-08-04 7:15 PM, Amate Yolande wrote:

Hello

My name is Amate Yolande, a second year Computer Science student from
the University of Buea Cameroon. I am new to open source and interested in
contributing to mailman. I am primarily a Python programmer with basic
knowledge of Javascript and Django. I have successfully installed and run
mailman3 with Postorius and Hyperkitty locally, but I have no prior
experience with mailman so  I would like to get directives on some
beginners tasks to help me familiarize myself with mailman.


Hi Yolande!

We try to tag our bugs as beginner-friendly or easy when we think 
they might be suitable for new contributors:


https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/issues?label_name=beginner-friendly
https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/issues?label_name=easy
https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues?label_name=easy
https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/issues?label_name=easy

There aren't a huge number of bugs in that category right now because we 
cleaned up a lot of the easier bugs before the release earlier this 
year, but one thing that is *always* helpful and reasonably beginner 
friendly is adding more test cases.  There's a bug in postorius with a 
few hints as to how to get started:


https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/issues/2

The other great thing to do as a beginner is to report bugs.  And that's 
not just bugs in the software, but also bugs in the documentation: did 
you find anything stupidly confusing when you set up your instance?  Is 
there anything you found hard to find on the website?  Ask about it 
here, and maybe file a bug or two so we don't forget to fix things!  It 
really helps us to have people coming in and seeing all that stuff with 
fresh eyes, so those are awesome things to do now before you get super 
familiar with the process!


For example, having just answered this question, I can see that it would 
be super awesome if we had a page on the website telling new users where 
to find the easy bugs.  Would you like to file that bug to get you started?


You can do it from here:

https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman-website/issues


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[Mailman-Developers] Improving the mailman-bundler flow for production environments

[Terri Oda]

Hi all,

I've been made aware several times that the mailman-bundler docs don't 
work super well for folk who are focused on getting a production rather 
than a development server up and running.  Now, I know we're hoping that 
there will be distro packages and an easier path for this eventually 
(please, if you're interested in doing some distro packaging, we need 
help!) but I thought I'd take a stab at making it better even for people 
going from source.


I've started a fork with my first thoughts here:

https://gitlab.com/terriko/mailman-bundler/blob/production-doc/README.rst

It includes:
- a new section Development vs Production with a note about the 
expected workflow (development-test-production) and a pointer to the 
production documentation (although I think my link is broken right now. 
 My restructuredtext-fu is weak tonight and google didn't help.)
- Something more explicit in Run the services about how to run django 
on something other than localhost.


Those were the two things that really stood out for me when I was 
setting up a server this week, but I am certain they're not the only 
places where we could be more clear.


So... I'd like some feedback!  What seems confusing about the doc?  What 
concerns are there for production servers that we aren't addressing?


 Terri


PS - Don't worry, I will make a merge request when I fix the formatting 
errors, but it's late and I wanted to get an email out before I go to bed

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Why is postorius using python2?

[Terri Oda]

I thought we still had one upstream dependency that stops us from entirely 
switching (Florian was keeping better track than I so hopefully he'll chime 
in), but we'd love to be completely ready to switch when we can even if there's 
a blocker still, so please feel free to file bugs and make suggestions to 
improve things! 


On August 3, 2015 5:34:26 AM PDT, Simon Hanna simon.ha...@serve-me.info wrote:
Hi there,

I just downloaded the mailman3 code to see if I can contribute
anything.
I was astonished to find out that postorius still uses python2 
although mailman made the switch to python3.
Is there any reason behind this?
I asked on the irc channel but got no answer so I'm trying here.

I used 2to3 on the code and successfully executed the code.

I executed the tests, and ran into some errors.
If this work is going to be included sometime,
I'm willing to investigate and try to fix these errors.

Simon





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Re: [Mailman-Developers] [GSOC'15] Mid term blog report

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-07-02 11:17 AM, Ankush Sharma wrote:

Hello everyone,

I have put up a blog post regarding my GSoC project *Mailman Client in
JS. *Interested
people can follow this link :

http://black-perl.me/black-perl-gsoc-with-mailman-mid-term-report

Expecting feedback from your side !


You mention that a bunch of the tests are failing due to code changes. 
Is this something the rest of us can help you out on?  There's no 
requirement in GSoC that you write and fix every single test personally, 
and sometimes test fixes are tasks suitable for people who want a small, 
self-contained contribution opportunity or a quick thing to do.  Would 
these maybe be something like that, or would you need to understand your 
code really deeply to work on the fixes?


 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] html question

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-06-08 7:52 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

On Jun 08, 2015, at 02:13 PM, Abhilash Raj wrote:


Postorius just queries the core via REST API the for the message and
dumps the message code in the View. Probably we need to identify if
the message contains a text/html part and then render that
appropriately.


Although we do have to be careful not to provide a vector for malware
attacking list admins.


Indeed.  We should use a known parser to defang anything we re-display 
and absolutely positively not write a new one.  There's probably 
something suitable in django already.


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] mailman 3.0 roadmap, feature-parity with mailman 2.x and documentation

[Terri Oda]

Is there a recommended server environment to run Mailman 3?

It should install and run on any *nix server that supports both Python
2.7 and Python 3.0, an MTA capable of LMTP delivery to Mailman
(currently configurations for Postfix and Exim are provided) and a web
server compatible with Django.


In addition to what Mark said: I know we've tested it on Fedora (20 and 
22, I think?) and I have a script for docker install that uses Ubuntu 
14.04 that may work for other apt-based systems.


Incidentally, if anyone's interested in doing packaging for the Mailman 
3.0 Suite pieces for some common distributions, I think that would be 
really awesome.


 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman3 Suite in Docker! (Also: probably decent recipe for ubuntu 14.04)

[Terri Oda]

Oh, right. Change 'source' to '.' I did that last night but apparently didn't 
update the wiki.

And it's a wiki, you can update it without needing pull requests :)

On April 16, 2015 1:35:41 AM EDT, Pranjal Mittal mitt...@onid.oregonstate.edu 
wrote:
Hi Terri,

There seems to be an issue in the step that activates the venv in the
Dockerfile i.e.:
RUN source venv/bin/activate

Here is the last part of from my docker build logs which shows the
error:
http://dpaste.com/2PG8THT

The error happens because while building the docker image the default
shell
used is not bash. /bin/sh need not be bash which makes the source
command
fail (because it will only work in bash).

I have updated the docker file which should fix this issue:
http://dpaste.com/0ZGFR51

I can help with docker integration but keeping a little busy with
catching
up on academics after Pycon; will work on it from next week. Can we add
this file to some github repo to be able to send PR's, etc
conveniently?


Thanks,
- Pranjal

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 8:14 PM, Terri Oda te...@toybox.ca wrote:

 Hey all,

 I've got a Dockerfile up here for those of you who might want to try
 dumping Mailman3 suite into a container and watching it go:


http://wiki.list.org/DEV/Mailman%203.0/Mailman%203.0%20Suite%20Dockerfile

 This gets everything running with some default configs, and I can
tell
 that it at least gets the websites up inside the container.

 (If you do a little mental translation, you can use those same
 instructions to set up on a fresh Ubuntu 14.04 install, I presume.)

 The problem is that I'm both very tired after PyCon+sprints and very
new
 to Docker, and I don't know what instructions I need for people to
run that
 and wire the ports up so you can connect to postorius and hyperkitty
on
 your local machine.

 Can anyone help with that?

  Terri

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[Mailman-Developers] Mailman3 Suite in Docker! (Also: probably decent recipe for ubuntu 14.04)

[Terri Oda]

Hey all,

I've got a Dockerfile up here for those of you who might want to try 
dumping Mailman3 suite into a container and watching it go:


http://wiki.list.org/DEV/Mailman%203.0/Mailman%203.0%20Suite%20Dockerfile

This gets everything running with some default configs, and I can tell 
that it at least gets the websites up inside the container.


(If you do a little mental translation, you can use those same 
instructions to set up on a fresh Ubuntu 14.04 install, I presume.)


The problem is that I'm both very tired after PyCon+sprints and very new 
to Docker, and I don't know what instructions I need for people to run 
that and wire the ports up so you can connect to postorius and 
hyperkitty on your local machine.


Can anyone help with that?

 Terri

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[Mailman-Developers] Outstanding postorius merge requests (was Re: [ Query ] Some bugs in postorius that needs to be addressed)

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-04-13 3:49 PM, Ankush Sharma wrote:

The above bugs have been discussed in detail with Bhavesh Goyal with
involvement of Terri. I think fixing
https://code.launchpad.net/~bhavesh-goyal093/postorius/fixed-nav-role-identification
would
work !


This has been merged, thanks all!

Incidentally, I spent most of yesterday and some of today reviewing 
outstanding postorius merge proposals.


You can see the list of ones that I got in here:

http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/postorius/trunk/changes

And I've sent out fix required notes to a few folk because I couldn't 
get things running easily.  There's still a few I haven't looked at as well.


I'm switching over to doing some work on a docker image for mailman so I 
won't be doing as many merge requests tomorrow, but if any of you are 
hoping to have a merge happen while I'm at PyCon, I'd totally appreciate 
it if you could check your merge against the latest updates (as you can 
see, there's been a few commits) and make sure to run the tox tests. 
Once you've got it all working, hit me up on IRC and I'll see what I can do!


And, of course, helping try out other people's merge proposals and do 
any initial debugging is always awesome.  As is adding more tests! :)


 Terri



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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Getting approval to go ahead

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-03-23 8:38 PM, Andrew Stuart wrote:

I haven’t really worked on an open source project before.

It wouldn’t make sense to come up with an idea, write some code, submit it and 
have it rejected because it’s not OK with the project owners and doesn’t fit 
with project goals.

So at what point do I know that if I write some code that the concept is solid 
and will be integrated into the project assuming the quality is there? Do I 
need explicit approval from someone like Barry or Stephen?

Also, is there a development workflow checklist or something I can use to 
ensure that I am meeting all requirements for submitted code?


Sadly, we aren't quite formal enough to have a procedure beyond post 
your plan to the mailing list and make sure no one (particularly not 
Barry!) tells you 'no'.


Unfortunately, it is true that the lack of process has led people to put 
a lot of work into stuff that never got merged.


If you'd feel more comfy with a bit more of a process, you might 
consider doing up something like a pep 
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0001/


For core stuff you particularly want Barry's blessing, for Hyperkitty 
it's Aurelian, for Postorius it's Florian or me.



 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Getting approval to go ahead

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-03-23 10:38 PM, Andrew Stuart wrote:

The question is, who do I ask for confirmation that the idea is solid and will 
be merged assuming all requirements are met for code 
quality/testing/documentation?

For core stuff you particularly want Barry's blessing, for Hyperkitty it's 
Aurelian, for Postorius it's Florian or me.


Answering the question by quoting the part where I already answered the 
question. ;)


 Terri



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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC 15 - Interested in contributing to Hyperkitty

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-03-22 10:23 PM, David Udelson wrote:

I'm interested in contributing to the Hyperkitty archiver. Specifically, it
looks like some requested features for Hyperkitty include rss syndication
for entire mailing lists/specific users/specific threads, and the ability
to view entire threads as plaintext and download that plaintext. I have the
following questions regarding these features:


I talked with David on IRC, but in case anyone else is wondering:

RSS feeds was a project a few years ago:
http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/project/details/google/gsoc2013/joanna/5831844033462272

I don't know offhand if the code was merged into upstream, but my 
preference is as always to make use of code we have if we can, so RSS 
feeds are maybe not going to make for a good hyperkitty project this year.



 Terri



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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Group Photo from PyCon Mailman sprint last year

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-03-06 5:31 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

Toshio (Toshi) Kuratomi - Hyperkitty
Barry Warsaw - MM3 core
Piotr (Peter) Kasprzyk - i18n
Aurélien Bompard - Postorius
John - with Terri


John Hawley's main activity for Mailman involves fetching bagels for us 
and driving us to dinner at the sprints. ;)  (He did also help with some 
testing of the integration scripts, to be fair, and has repeatedly 
threatened to switch LKML to using Mailman 3 if we don't release soon.)



Mark Sapiro - MM 2.1 (Really wants MM3 core, but somebody has to do it)
Florian Fuchs - Postorius
Terri Oda - Postorius, GSoC



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[Mailman-Developers] Group Photo from PyCon Mailman sprint last year

[Terri Oda]

Thought you all might want this for your wall. ;)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/kushaldas/13953404515/in/set-72157644185026745

And since we're about a month out and it's probably not too late to make 
travel arrangements, I'd like to remind you all that we're planning to 
sprint again this year at PyCon!


PyCon is an excellent conference and well worth attending, but even if 
you aren't attending the main conference, the sprints are free.  Come 
help us release Mailman 3, finally! ;)


 Terri
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Newbie

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-03-03 11:25 PM, Prudhvee Narasimha Sadha wrote:

Hi,
   I'm prudhvee, I'm interested in contributing to GNU Mailman and
GSoC, I have good skills in programming, but new to python. Currently,
I'm learning Python language.I had gone through the bugs page to
choose a newbie bug, nut I'm unable to choose an easy bug to fix. Can
you please help me by giving a basic newbie bug. I would like to work
on it.


One of the bugs I've been recommending to people is this one:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/postorius/+bug/1414352

To work on that bug, what you need to do is create a new test for our 
test suite that tests something that hasn't been tested yet.  It's a 
nice bug because we can repeat it over and over quite a few times, so 
you don't have to worry too much about someone else fixing it while 
you're working on it.  :)


But if that doesn't appeal to you, try looking through the queues for 
bugs marked easy or beginner-friendly


Postorius:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/postorius/+bugs?field.tag=beginner-friendly

Mailman:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bugs?field.tag=easy

And I can't remember the link for Hyperkitty, so hopefully someone else 
can chime in with that one.


Good luck!

 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Org admins

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-03-02 8:10 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Is there an issue with org admin overlap between python-org (I assume
*they* got in!) and mailman-org?  (I guess I should mention
systers-org, although Terri swore not  :-)


Python is in too.  Hurrah!

There's no problem in being an org admin for multiple orgs (I have been 
for the past few years, first with Systers, then with Copyleft Games). 
I *did* find my 4th org admin for Python, so I'm not *quite* as upset to 
lose some of Florian's time ;)


I'm still happy to take on a 5th if you want to read blogs, nag people, 
and curse about melange, Stephen.


 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC 2015: brainstorming ideas suitable for beginners?

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-02-27 1:06 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Ankush Sharma B.Tech. Electronics Engg, IIT(BHU), Varanasi (U.P.),  INDIA 
writes:

   I was wondering if there is a sort of tool that generates summaries
   for mailing list activity and charts like number of users, number
   of active users, etc. Would something like this be a good idea or
   is it already done?

There are such tools but they're not integrated into the Mailman 2 web
interface, and I think they're not in Postorius or Hyperkitty yet,
either.  They're frequently requested and I think Postorius provides
some infrastructure for such things.


We actually have a whole summer of code project that was on metrics from 
a few years ago.  I believe it worked as separate add-in for Mailman, 
but perhaps we should take a look at integrating it better into 
hyperkitty (or maybe postorius?) if people are unaware that it exists. 
I'd like to see that code integrated part of any new effort in this area.


 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC 2015: brainstorming ideas suitable for beginners?

[Terri Oda]

Honestly, I don't love this idea.  I would be technically feasible with 
VERP, but it edges into features that are very popular for people 
sending spam.



On 2015-02-26 11:32 PM, Ankush Sharma B.Tech. Electronics Engg, 
IIT(BHU), Varanasi (U.P.), INDIA wrote:

How about having personalized announcement mailing lists ?

A personalized mailing list will allow mailman users to send
personalized emails to all the list members from a common email
template.  Suppose I am the manager of a company and I need to ask all
the workers for a meeting. I want each of my workers to prepare a topic
to speak on during the meeting. For this I need to send each of them a
message separately mentioning the topic he/she has to speak on.

Suppose the email /template/ is like this:

*To : worker-email*
*Subject: sub*
*
*
*Hello worker-name,*
*
*
*Hope you are having fun at worker-place. I am arranging a meeting at
5 p.m. on Saturday. I want you to speak on topic during the meeting.
So, come prepared for that.*
*other-suff*
*
*
*Best wishes,*
*
*
*Ankush Sharma*
*Manager*
*foo-bar*


And I have a spreadsheet data on the mailing list server like this:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cAbdSmc1NA-C9IZFjc_zB67qEvgmX8Jr3xYyGxPdwdU/pubhtml

Mailman can have a functionality of flooding the /template/ by using the
spreadsheet data. The variables in the /template/ ( --  stuff) would
be replaced by the corresponding row data in the spreadsheet
corresponding to the emails of the list members. This can provide great
flexibility to mailman users who use mailman as announcement list.

Later on, mailman can have the functionality of saving email templates
and choosing one of them in a certain scenario. Mailing lists can be
made more personalized and powerful in this way.

Expecting further feedback or suggestions on this idea.

Ankush Sharma
IIT-BHU,Varanasi
github.com/black-perl http://github.com/black-perl



On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 4:40 AM, Barry Warsaw ba...@list.org
mailto:ba...@list.org wrote:

On Feb 25, 2015, at 04:12 PM, Andrew Stuart wrote:

I’m looking forward to being able to set and get domainowner and 
serverowner
(or siteowner or whatever its called). It will allow me to delete lots of
code and there’s no greater joy than deleting code.

Are you anticipating this will be in V3.0?

Please file a bug and we'll see. ;)

Cheers,
-Barry

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC 2015: brainstorming ideas suitable for beginners?

[Terri Oda]

I am quite aware of the definition of spam (in fact, I have a master's 
thesis on the subject).


What I'm concerned about is that in the past, mail merges (which is what 
you're describing) is a feature that has often been requested by people 
doing marketing lists.  It's not a subset of users I'm eager to attract, 
since a few bad apples could cause some unfortunate fallout for Mailman 
as users start marking messages as spam and, inevitably, sending us 
angry messages.  (As the person who wrote the 2.1 documentation, I can 
tell you that I already get these on occasion as upset folk will send to 
basically any address they can find associated with the project.)


It's not that it's a bad feature in isolation.  But there are so *many* 
potential features for Mailman, and I'd like to see ideas that are less 
socially problematic get implemented first.


 Terri



On 2015-02-26 11:52 PM, Ankush Sharma B.Tech. Electronics Engg, 
IIT(BHU), Varanasi (U.P.), INDIA wrote:


On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Terri Oda te...@toybox.ca
mailto:te...@toybox.ca wrote:

Honestly, I don't love this idea.  I would be technically feasible
with VERP,

I don't know about VERP. I will surely have a look.

but it edges into features that are very popular for people sending
spam.

Spamming would be the case when you are sending the emails to people who
don't want to receive such emails. While if we control the email
variable to take value from the set of emails of the list members only
and not allowing the use of template variables i.e  ..  stuff in the
*To: *field.




On 2015-02-26 11:32 PM, Ankush Sharma B.Tech. Electronics Engg,
IIT(BHU), Varanasi (U.P.), INDIA wrote:

How about having personalized announcement mailing lists ?

A personalized mailing list will allow mailman users to send
personalized emails to all the list members from a common email
template.  Suppose I am the manager of a company and I need to
ask all
the workers for a meeting. I want each of my workers to prepare
a topic
to speak on during the meeting. For this I need to send each of
them a
message separately mentioning the topic he/she has to speak on.

Suppose the email /template/ is like this:

*To : worker-email*
*Subject: sub*
*
*
*Hello worker-name,*
*
*
*Hope you are having fun at worker-place. I am arranging a
meeting at
5 p.m. on Saturday. I want you to speak on topic during the
meeting.
So, come prepared for that.*
*other-suff*
*
*
*Best wishes,*
*
*
*Ankush Sharma*
*Manager*
*foo-bar*


And I have a spreadsheet data on the mailing list server like this:

https://docs.google.com/__spreadsheets/d/1cAbdSmc1NA-__C9IZFjc___zB67qEvgmX8Jr3xYyGxPdwdU/__pubhtml

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cAbdSmc1NA-C9IZFjc_zB67qEvgmX8Jr3xYyGxPdwdU/pubhtml

Mailman can have a functionality of flooding the /template/ by
using the
spreadsheet data. The variables in the /template/ ( --  stuff)
would
be replaced by the corresponding row data in the spreadsheet
corresponding to the emails of the list members. This can
provide great
flexibility to mailman users who use mailman as announcement list.

Later on, mailman can have the functionality of saving email
templates
and choosing one of them in a certain scenario. Mailing lists can be
made more personalized and powerful in this way.

Expecting further feedback or suggestions on this idea.

Ankush Sharma
IIT-BHU,Varanasi
github.com/black-perl http://github.com/black-perl
http://github.com/black-perl



On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 4:40 AM, Barry Warsaw ba...@list.org
mailto:ba...@list.org
mailto:ba...@list.org mailto:ba...@list.org wrote:

 On Feb 25, 2015, at 04:12 PM, Andrew Stuart wrote:

 I’m looking forward to being able to set and get
domainowner and serverowner
 (or siteowner or whatever its called). It will allow me to
delete lots of
 code and there’s no greater joy than deleting code.
 
 Are you anticipating this will be in V3.0?

 Please file a bug and we'll see. ;)

 Cheers,
 -Barry

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC 2015: brainstorming ideas suitable for beginners?

[Terri Oda]

Thanks all!  I've put up stuff for the ideas I could describe well 
enough off the top of my head.


Also, mentors, I've listed a few likely key people beside each project 
idea, but some of them are just a generic anyone can help with this -- 
if any of these particularly interests you, please put your name down. 
Google prefers we have actual names listed when we can (I'm not entirely 
sure why, as this hasn't proven to be helpful, but we can always change 
the names after the page is reviewed.)


Applications are due 1900 UTC Friday, so around 13h from now!

 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Who is the site administrator?

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-01-24, 5:08 AM, Andrew Stuart wrote:

you can look back in the archives to the huge discussion we had about unifying 
the user data store..


Is there search to find that discussion or do I have to manually review all the 
threads? Any idea what year it was in?


The data store discussion was I think two years ago around the time of 
pycon.  I started it with a thread entitled Architecture for extra 
profile info


https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2013-April/022852.html

(As Sumana says, mail-archive is usually the best bet for searching the 
mailman archives.  I searched locally, though.)


But I'm serious that it's only worth reading if you're incredibly bored. 
 It became a huge architecture discussion that only ended on the lists 
with an agree to disagree. (and I got bombarded with further comments 
about it on IRC for months after the list discussion ended, so I'm 
actually kind of still cranky about it.)


I think it's still a thing we need to look in to more seriously, but be 
warned that it's a topic folk have been passionate about in the past, to 
the point where progress was not made.  On the other hand, one of the 
people involved in that discussion has moved on to other things and the 
rest of us do collaborative work together more frequently, so it might 
be easier to reach a solution now.


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Who is the site administrator?

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-01-23, 7:12 PM, Andrew Stuart wrote:

Is this defined in any way?

Is there any concept that a given Mailman user has “site admin rights”?

Or is the concept of the “site administrator” not realised in the application 
and just considered to be someone with operating system level access to the 
system that Mailman is running on?


In Mailman 2, there's no admin users in a typical sense but the site 
administrator is someone who knows the global password for a site and/or 
has shell access. The global password lets you log in as an admin to any 
list, and depending on your settings may let you do things like create 
and delete lists.  And yes, it's really just one shared password


In Mailman 3 there's a much more nuanced user system and you can have 
users with site privileges (and there's no longer a need to share 
passwords).


 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] MM 3: Virtual Environment Required?

[Terri Oda]

On 2015-01-13, 1:35 PM, Tom Browder wrote:

I want to install, and use, MM 3.  I'm on a single-user, Debian 7
server, and control the whole thing.

Is it important to use a virtual environment?  I'm sure I will be
updating from the development branch until the stable release, and I
am prepared to have interruptions in service along the way.


It *can* make your life easier if you're running multiple versions of 
python (which is why developers often like to use it) but it's 
definitely not required (even then!).  As a core dev, I don't use it on 
some of my development machines.


 Terri

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[Mailman-Developers] Want Mailman 3 suite to release faster? Here's some bugs you can help with!

[Terri Oda]

Some weeks back, Florian went through the Postorius bug queue to find a 
list of bugs that he thinks are blocking us from being able to have a 
final Mailman Suite release.


I just wanted to advertise that list to you all in case anyone here is 
looking for some valuable work to do:


https://bugs.launchpad.net/postorius/+bugs?field.tag=mailman3-suite-blocker

There's only 13 of them at the moment, so that's nice.

They're in a variety of different states.  Some are somewhat old and we 
could really use someone to just try to reproduce them on the most 
recent version of postorius and post an update in the bug saying it's 
still a problem (or not!).   Some have notes from me suggesting a 
smaller piece that could be done first by a beginner wanting a new bug 
to try or someone more experienced wanting a quicker task.  (don't worry 
about saving beginner bugs at this stage; I'm more interested in seeing 
a release!) Some are more complex.


If anyone's got time to push these forwards in any way, it would be very 
much appreciated!  I'm even happy to send you some mailman stickers if 
you want a physical token of appreciation.


 Terri
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[Mailman-Developers] PyCon Sprints have started!

[Terri Oda]

Just a quick reminder: we're sprinting at PyCon right now through 
Thursday, so if you've been hoping to get in touch with one of the 
Mailman core devs, now's a great time to find us!  We'll be sprinting 
approximately 9-5ish Montréal time (Eastern Daylight Time) the next few 
days.


If you're in the Montréal area, feel free to join us in person. We're 
currently in room 524a of the Palais des Congrès de Montréal, and 
sprints are free (even if you weren't signed up for Pycon) so you can 
just show up.


And if you're not in Montréal, there's always IRC!

 Terri

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[Mailman-Developers] Using git for mailman development during GSoC is NOT RECOMMENDED

[Terri Oda]

I just added the following note to the wiki and I want to repeat it here:

While it is possible to use a git mirror or other tools to use git for 
Mailman core and Postorius development, we DO NOT RECOMMEND USING GIT 
for GSoC.  Merge requests need to happen on launchpad (that is the one 
way new code gets accepted into those projects), and previous GSoC 
students have found that the time required to make it all work is more 
than they anticipated.  (We may one day switch to git, but it won't be 
happening this summer.)


Sorry!  I know our official stance for regular contributors is use 
whatever as long as you can submit a launchpad merge request but for 
GSoC students, you're on a short timeline that's going to be busier at 
the end than the beginning and experience says it's much safer to learn 
launchpad and use it from the get-go than risk time-consuming problems 
later in the process.


 Terri


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[Mailman-Developers] Virtual Mailman hackathon this weekend: Mailman Suite package!

[Terri Oda]

Hi all!

Something we've done periodically is try to get everyone on IRC over 
the weekend, all working on Mailman at the same time.  It's great time 
for people to show and get patches reviewed, chat, and get work done 
together.  Everyone is invited!


This weekend's hackathon, my plan is to try and get a Mailman suite 
package working.  The final goal is to have it so that pip install 
mailman-suite will give you a full mailman suite install.  The plan is 
to create the one package to rule them all version of Mailman Suite, 
with Mailman Core, Postorius, and Hyperkitty packaged together, 
preferably with Postorius and Hyperkitty sharing a django instance.


I know basically nothing about python packaging, so help from people 
who do would be much appreciated (Barry?).  Even the newest student is 
just as able to read docs and suggest things as I am on this particular 
project. :)


I'm planning to be on #mailman on freenode around 10am PDT until 5pm 
PDT on Saturday the 15th, with possibly some more hours on Sunday 
depending on how things go and what else I have to get done.I may 
not manage to be actually at my computer every moment of that time since 
a friend is doing some filming at my house that day, but I'll try.



Here's a short line of schedule in UTC.  Everyone else, feel free to 
add your own planned hours here so we know when we overlap, or just drop 
by on the day if you're not sure of your schedule in advance.


Terri : Sat 1700UTC - Sun 0100UTC : Mailman Suite packaging


 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Getting mentor attention [was: Mailman SNMP support]

[Terri Oda]

On 2014-03-10, 8:55 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

First off, I saw you talked to Terri on IRC.  Much as I hate to burden
Terri, that is the right thing to do if you're not getting attention
to your proposal, especially from persons who proposed or volunteered
to mentor it.  If at all possible, try to grab GSoC people on IRC (or
by email) in the following order:


It is always ok to contact me!  Anyone, anytime!  The only thing I ask 
is that if I tell you to contact someone else, you actually do that and 
have at least one meaningful conversation with them before coming back 
to me.  As Stephen says, I can be pretty swamped, so when I redirect 
students to someone else, usually it's because I think they will be more 
helpful than I can be at that time.I don't want to be a bottleneck 
for a student or mentor who's stuck on a problem and waiting for me, so 
I do my best to refer you to the best person I can!


Just a quick correction on the list of people that Stephen posted:

The PSF GSoC Org admins are me, Florian and Meflin.

- I'm the one who makes final decisions about sub-orgs, slots, etc. and 
oversees everything.
- Florian, on top of helping me as org admin (particularly with the 
blogs), is the person in charge of Mailman's GSoC team.
- Meflin is running our IRC channel (#python-gsoc on freenode).  If you 
have a question about GSoC or melange he's often the one to ask, and he 
tries to be available on IRC as much as possible for quick questions.   
While he's new to our team this year, he's a very experienced GSoC org 
admin who I asked to join us this year to take some of the load off me 
and Florian.


* Jessica is *not* a PSF org admin this year, but she *is* on the PSF 
board.  If this were structured like a company, she'd be my boss.


That said, she is even more swamped than I am with Core Python (I think 
she's running OPW in parallel with GSoC right now), so there is 
basically no time mailman students should be talking to her.


If for any reason I am not responding as an org admin, you should talk 
to Meflin, who as the person in the closest time zone and same country, 
it's much easier for him to reach me out of band.


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GNU Mailman sprinting at Pycon 2014

[Terri Oda]

On 2014-02-24, 2:59 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

Once again, the GNU Mailman project will be sprinting at Pycon, this time the
2014 conference in Montreal.  I've created a placeholder page for adding ideas
about what you would like to work on, as well as our priorities.  We'll be
filling out details over the next few weeks, but feel free to start discussing
ideas here.

http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/PyCon+2014+Sprint


Hurray!

I'm still not 100% sure I'll be going, but I'll probably have to make a 
commitment on plane tickets this week (I have hotel and conference 
ticket, but I was holding off on flights because there may be a work 
conflict for me.)


The #1 thing I want is an installer for Mailman Suite.  We might want 
this before the sprints, though, if only to get people set up to sprint 
faster. :)


 Terri
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] [GSoC 2014] Cordova/Android App for GNU Mailman Admin Interface

[Terri Oda]

On 2014-02-28, 7:36 AM, Bhargav Golla wrote:

I have a few questions regarding this idea.
1. I intend to develop it on Cordova since it will help in porting the app
easily to multiple platforms. Were there any ideas in this directions
regarding going native or hybrid?


Personally, I'd prefer if we went hybrid and had an html5 webapp that 
could be used straight over the web for mobile users who don't want to 
install an app, with Cordova used to build the individual platform 
apps.  I may not be the mentor on this one, though, so I'm happy to 
defer to whoever the final mentor is on this front.


Incidentally, I've been using Intel's XDK for building Cordova apps 
lately and highly recommend it for quick testing on various platforms 
and screen sizes.  I've found it a very useful tool, and not just 
because I work for Intel now!

2. Can I assume that all mailing lists built by Mailman support the REST
interface? Also, I have tried to see if I can get JSON responses and I am
unable to by adding a HTTP Accept Header to take application/json. Am I
doing anything wrong or is JSON not implemented?


I don't know the answer to this off the top of my head: Barry?


3. As a starter, could I ignore internationalization for GSoC, but
implement interface in such a way as to be able to internationalize it
easily?


We don't expect you to actually translate anything, don't worry. :) But 
you should definitely build as much as possible so that 
internationalization will be easy: make sure there's a quick way to get 
a list of strings that need translation, at least.  Some of the strings 
may be already translated in other components of Mailman, so you may be 
able to get some translations to use to test if you have time at the end 
of the summer for internationalization.


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC 2014

[Terri Oda]

On 2/24/2014, 3:18 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

@Florian, Terri: is there going to be a why some orgs get in and
some don't session again this year?  (Sorry, I've had no time at all
to follow the process this year. :-( )
Yes, it's on Friday 28 February at 16:00 UTC.  As usual, it's an IRC 
meeting on #gsoc on freenode.  Worth attending, although I expect the 
answer will be similar to last year: more good applicants than there are 
slots.  Maybe next year!


 Terri



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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC 2014

[Terri Oda]

Mailman is intending to participate!  (At least, Florian told me he'd 
write our application this year... ;)


The project list under 2013 is *not* good for 2014 -- some of those 
projects have been finished and/or there may be no developer interest in 
some of them this year.  However, others may still be viable.  If there 
are any in particular that interest you, please ask on this list!  The 
sooner you ask the easier it us for us to hash out a project idea that 
will be viable and have plenty of mentor support.


 Terri


On 2/1/2014, 10:23 PM, Asish Panda wrote:

Hey!

My first question regarding GSoC is whether mailman is taking part in it
this year or not. Secondly, is the project list listed under GSoC 2013 good
for 2014 as well?

Thank you!
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[Mailman-Developers] GSoC 2014 ideas list

[Terri Oda]

I've had prospective Google Summer of Code students emailing me since, 
uh, September or so... so I guess it's time to talk ideas!


I've set up a wiki page, as usual:

http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Google+Summer+of+Code+2014

But let's start with here: what small projects would you like to see us 
sponsor this year?  I think we'll need to be more selective about the 
final list, but let's start with some brainstorming!



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[Mailman-Developers] Mailman Suite Beta task list take 2

[Terri Oda]

Trying to keep track of what's still on the table:

1. Multiple email address association with a single account.

We're going to implement the verification emails from postorius for now, 
I guess.  Florian, you seemed to know how to do this; do you mind 
getting it done?


2. Authentication issues for Postorius/Hyperkitty

Have these been resolved?  Florian, do you need code reviews yet?

3. Install scripts/PyPI packaging

Anyone want to take this?  Even just a start on it would be very 
helpful.  Aurelian, you may be the person who's had the most success 
with this thus far -- would you be interested in doing it or helping out 
someone else who takes on the task?


4. Owner/moderator removal in Postorius

Unless someone is desperate to handle this one, I may do it this week, 
either tonight or Thursday.


5. Anything else?


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] [GRAYMAIL] Re: Mailman Suite beta: what's left?

[Terri Oda]

On 13-10-29 10:12 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Patrick Ben Koetter writes:

   Maybe documentation that tells interested people how they can start
   using the beta?

I'm not sure what you mean.  None of the GSoC students had trouble
with getting Mailman 3 itself up and running once they got it checked
out and installed.  From that point of view, the documentation in the
Mailman checkout seems sufficient.  And we now have two of the three
most popular MTAs covered (Postfix and Exim).


That's actually not quite true: there are instructions for setting up 
hyperkitty or postorius, but I'm not sure there are instructions 
anywhere for setting up both together as a suite, because most devs are 
working on only one piece.


But yeah, I think packaging well (and then documenting *that*) makes a 
lot more sense, unless someone's feeling particularly inspired?


 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] [GRAYMAIL] Mailman Suite beta: what's left?

[Terri Oda]

On 13-10-29 10:07 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

   1. Need a Postorius interface for associating multiple email addresses
   with a single account.  This is probably going to require either an
   email verification, so we might want to have that as part Mailman Core
   rather than doing it directly in Postorius.

AFAIK Mailman core already knows how to do this.  It's just a question
of how to access and display it in Postorius.  (Barry?)


I don't have my IRC logs handy, but if I recall correctly, Barry said 
core doesn't have the ability yet but that he didn't think it would be a 
problem to do.  I haven't looked at it yet myself.


 Terri

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[Mailman-Developers] Mailman Suite beta: what's left?

[Terri Oda]

Stephen, Florian and I had a nice discussion at the GSoC Mentor Summit 
about what's left before we can release a beta of the entire Mailman 
Suite (i.e. Mailman core, Postorius and Hyperkitty packaged together).  
We're getting close!  In fact, close enough that I'm going to suggest 
that we set a beta release target date of Dec 1st.


I know we had a list of 5 things... but for some reason I can't 
remember all of them.  Florian, Stephen, can you chime in?



1. Need a Postorius interface for associating multiple email addresses 
with a single account.  This is probably going to require either an 
email verification, so we might want to have that as part Mailman Core 
rather than doing it directly in Postorius.  Short term, I don't care 
how it's done as long as it verifies that the user actually has access 
to the addresses they link together.


2. Postorius  Hyperkitty need a bit more work on the authentication 
management.  Florian indicated that he's looking for some code review 
for the persona integration and that we'd really like a single sign on 
solution for postorius/hyperkitty to work together seamlessly.


3. We need some nice install scripts or packaging work so that 
installing Mailman Suite is easy.  Probably for beta purposes this can 
just be a shell script, but we also talked about doing a meta Mailman 
Suite PyPI package and maybe doing a .deb or .rpm as proof of concept.


4. ??
5. ??

Hopefully Florian and Stephen have better memories than I and can fill 
those in.  Everyone else: anything you know that needs to happen before 
we can get a Mailman Suite beta out?


 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC Updates

[Terri Oda]

On 13-08-14 2:35 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Footnotes: [1] Has anybody else noticed that both gpg's UI and its 
documentation seem designed to make it as hard to use as possible?
Not only have people noticed, but  Why Johnny Can't Encrypt: A 
Usability Evaluation of PGP 5.0 is often required reading for computer 
security students at Carleton because it serves as a great example of 
how poor usability can render carefully designed encryption and security 
completely worthless.


 The analysis found a number of user interface design flaws that may 
contribute to security failures, and the user test demonstrated that 
when our test participants were given 90 minutes in which to sign and 
encrypt a message using PGP 5.0, the majority of them were unable to do 
so successfully. 


If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it.  It's an easy read, 
freely available online, and very educational.  Obviously this is 
especially of interest to those talking about PGP and mailman, but it's 
a good read for anyone who works with code:


https://www.usenix.org/legacy/events/sec99/whitten.html

 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Terri Oda]

On 07/26/2013 06:23 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

I'm only one data point, but pretty much the only thing I use the
dashboard for is seeing the recently updated pages, both to see what's
going on and check for spam. I'm perfectly happy with Moin's
RecentChanges page for this.


I guess I can be data point number 2: I also mostly use the dashboard 
for seeing recent stuff, either what's going on or spam, so 
RecentChanges will also work for me too.


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3.0 todo list

[Terri Oda]

On 13-07-15 8:28 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

There are no deployments I know of, although Barry may.  (I'm leaving
out people who are playing with betas; by deployment I mean
supporting real work.)  The GSoC mentors and students are discussing
setting one up that we can experiment either.


Postorius had a bug from someone running a 2000-person local music list 
on Mailman 3, so there's at least one fairly significant deployment that 
I know of.


The thing that usually stops people from trying the Mailman 3 suite out 
is that we have no upgrade path from mailman 2 to mailman 3 at the 
moment.  I believe there's a conversion script for archives, but you'd 
have to write your own script to migrate users and list settings.


 Terri

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[Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3.0 todo list

[Terri Oda]

I've started a new things left to do before Mailman 3 releases list
over at
http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Mailman+3.0

Mostly this is so the next time someone asks me So, when are you
releasing? I can at least say We don't have a date yet, but here's the
remaining todo list but also because I think our wiki is rather
information-poor on the subject of the current status of mailman 3 suite.

I've populated the list with some todos leftover from PyCon, but I only
really pulled out the postorius ones.  Barry, Aurelian, maybe you could
populate the Mailman and Hyperkitty lists?

 Terri
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[Mailman-Developers] Online Mailman Hackathon: July 14 0500-2300UTC

[Terri Oda]

Hey all,

We're going to do a virtual hackathon day for Mailman suite 
(Mailman/Postorius/Hyperkitty) on Saturday and you're all invited.I 
especially suggest that the GSoC students for both Mailman and Systers 
take advantage of this day and show up to ask questions and get some 
time with the mentors.


Where: on IRC (#mailman on freenode) It's a virtual hackathon!
When: Sunday July 14 0500 to 2300 UTC
Who: anyone interested in Mailman dev

As before, you're not expected to stay the whole time: people will drop 
in and out through that period as their time zone and other commitments 
permit.  I, for example, will be on for a little bit at the beginning, 
then will be back around UTC 1600 until the end.


We'll be doing a variety of things: bug triage and fixing, discussion of 
architecture, new feature development, helping each other with any 
blocking problems, spouting off crazy new ideas, code review and 
merging, etc.  We're especially hoping to make sure we clear any issues 
we can relating to GSoC projects, but there's plenty of work to go 
around.  New folk are welcome too.


Hope to see you there!

 Terri

PS - Here's a link to help you figure out what those times would be in 
your time zone.  You can click change cities to add your own local 
time to the list:

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?iso=20130714p1=394p2=37p3=248p4=263p5=1038


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[Mailman-Developers] Systers+Mailman GSoC introductions

[Terri Oda]

Hi all,

This is a now you all have each other's email addresses email 
introduction.


Rose and Meflin are the org admins for Systers.

The rest of you are the Mailman mentors.

As we discussed, some of the folk from Mailman will be helping with the 
mentoring for Systers, and Rose would like to sort out how best to do 
this and make sure you're all in touch with your students. Rose says 
she's away for a couple of days and meflin's getting on a plane 
tomorrow, so probably this email is a bit early, but I didn't want to 
forget.


Rose: we should probably get all the mailman mentors cross-listed as 
systers mentors so that they can see the students' original proposals 
and to make melange paperwork easier.  Unless you have some serious 
objection, Meflin and I can probably arrange that.


Mailman mentors:

If you want to sign up for the systers-dev mailing list, here's the link:
http://systers.org/mailman/listinfo/systers-dev

I would like to encourage all the systers students to also sign up for 
mailman-developers, but I haven't pushed them to do that yet. When you 
talk to your specific students, please feel free to do so.


I'm having some trouble reading Rose's email, but I believe the mentors 
Rose suggested are below:


Admin Essay
Student: Julia P.
Systers Mentors: Rose, Promita

Admin dlist script
Student: Ioana
Systers Mentors: Anna, Meflin

Selenium Testing
Student: Olga
Systers Mentors: Mayank, Danielle, Lynn

RSS Feed
Student: Joanna
Systers Mentors: Joanna, Nicki
Mailman Mentor: Wacky  (We may want Aurelien in on this too since it's 
going to need integration with hyperkitty)


UI member Area:
Student: Shanu(Dardie)
Systers Mentor: Danielle,
Mailman Mentors: Aurelien, Stephen

UI MM3 design
Student: Sneha P.
Systers Mentor: Lynn
Mailman Mentors: Florian, Terri

Do feel free to rearrange yourselves if necessary, and I expect just 
like we do with Mailman that you'll all feel free to mentor other 
students when it's helpful to do so.


 Terri
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Systers+Mailman GSoC introductions

[Terri Oda]

*sigh* And this is what I get for sending email while on painkillers.  
My apologies, all!


 Terri
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] OpenPGP Mailman integration discussion [was: Re: GSoc - Requirement from Mentor to complete the project]

[Terri Oda]

On 13-05-09 11:17 AM, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:

I'm imagining a first phase (message authentication) would not expect
or handle encrypted messages, but would just use cryptographic
signatures to verify the authenticity of origin of the incoming message,
enhancing (and/or replacing) some of the current checks mailman uses to
decide if a message should be passed on to the list.

Then the second phase (encrypted messages) would address the
possibility of having encrypted message content.

I'm not a mailman developer; but I'd be curious to hear what mailman
devs think of this breakdown.


Nice timing!  This is *exactly* what a few of Mailman devs who are awake 
were talking about on IRC an hour or two ago.  Re-organizing like this 
would be a great way to make sure that openPGP as a GSoC project can 
have a useful but smaller scale first goal, leaving full encryption as 
more of a stretch goal, which might work better for the GSoC timeline.


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC Project Discussion - Web Posting Interface.

[Terri Oda]

In practical terms, I think the time would be better spent on 
integrating HyperKitty and Postorius for Mailman suite *first* and then 
dividing out the posting capability once the integration is done.  That 
way the person who does this has some idea of the pain points of 
integration so they can be better smoothed for the next piece.


 Terri


On 05/08/2013 09:31 AM, Richard Wackerbarth wrote:

I agree with Steve. One of the advantages of Django is its mix and match 
capability.
Actually, I see two possible apps. One would integrate with HK. The other would 
be simpler, just providing a posting mechanism that provides authenticated 
message sender.

On May 8, 2013, at 10:19 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull step...@xemacs.org wrote:


Peter Markou writes:


Now regarding Richard's email, GSoC Applicants. After having a
comprehensive examination in Hyperkitty I found that the functionality
for posting messages through web exists.


I think it should be split out as a separate Django app, independent
of HyperKitty.
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[Mailman-Developers] About authentication (was Re: Architecture for extra profile info)

[Terri Oda]

1. I would like to remind/tell you all that FOR THIS RELEASE, we will 
ONLY be supporting Mozilla Persona and passwords as authentication 
methods.  This is not up for discussion at this time; it's a choice 
we've made to in order to help move the release forwards.


2. As such, any discussion of enterprise use of google or twitter or 
what have you is pretty much academic.   I am satisfied if our 
authentication plan for methods other than Persona and passwords is And 
then the magical python gnomes associate an external account with an 
internal mailman account!  (I'm not being entirely facetious here; 
libraries such as django-social-auth are likely to make this 
sufficiently trivial that it might as well be gnomes.)


3.  While I agree that thinking about these things in advance is useful, 
I think this discussion is starting to crowd out discussions of 
time-sensitive things like students' GSoC applications and architectural 
choices that directly impact how they write said applications.


4. Let's be realistic: No one is going to plumb everything carefully 
through with good architectural work in time for it to be useful to GSoC 
students starting in a few weeks.


So... can we please backburner parts of this discussion until after GSoC 
so that we don't make it impossible for anyone to start on any project 
involving extra profile info? I don't want to bog down a student with 
the need to make this choice and work with these decisions at this stage.


For the purposes of GSoC this summer:

Authentication for the purposes of the extra profile info data store 
will be provided by either Persona through the web interface or 
passwords.  Yes, even internally for the REST interface: 
passwords+localhost are good enough for Mailman Core right now, so it's 
good enough for anything else we do short-term.


We can re-open the floor to better ideas either after GSoC, after the 
Mailman suite releases, or if Barry vetoes my decision.  ;)


 Terri





On 13-04-28 10:24 PM, Richard Wackerbarth wrote:

Steve,

Here I agree with you.

It is useful for MM to be able to accept enterprise information when it is 
available.
OAuth is a mechanism that will be useful for some enterprises.
To the general public, being able to use enterprise identification from common sources 
such as Google or Twitter, is a friendly way identify a user and allow them 
to log into a MM system.

Within a MM installation, OAuth could be used in a more robust distributed implementation. However 
for our purposes, much simpler schemes such as Basic or Digest Auth is more than adequate for the 
intercommunication between components such as core, postorius, a message 
store, etc.

Richard

On Apr 28, 2013, at 11:07 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull step...@xemacs.org wrote:


Xu Wang writes:


As oauth supported google's userinfo API, one need to present a valid
google's oauth access token to get access.
s/google/mailman/g  on above statement, it will be true too.

I disagree, in the sense that Google (as an OAuth provider) is in the
business of *providing* enterprise workflows such as AppEngine.
That's why they need to be an OAuth provider.  Mailman is a support
function for workflows (enterprise or otherwise).

So it's not a Mailman token.  It's an enterprise token, and the
enterprise, not Mailman, should be the provider.  If Mailman provides,
then we have to take responsibility for foreseeing enterprise needs.

If we go Wacky's route and make everything as generic as possible, we
may need the power of OAuth to handle all that genericity.  (We may
also then need another 5 years to release Mailman 3)  But if we
stick to the current role-based authorization model with a small fixed
set of roles, then OpenID-like workflows (whether implemented via
OAuth protocol or otherwise) should be enough.

If a site demands more control over authentication than public OpenID
providers can afford, then Basic Auth over HTTPS fits into the user
has role authorization model as well as OpenID does.  I don't see a
need for Mailman to provide an authentication provider, and there are
serious downsides to the proliferation of authentication providers.

Steve

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] About authentication (was Re: Architecture for extra profile info)

[Terri Oda]

On 13-04-29 3:25 PM, Richard Wackerbarth wrote:

I'll go further than that and suggest, for the purpose of GSoC:

[snip details]

These are good if you're going to do the implementation.  If you're not, 
I'm happy to leave some of these details up to the person who actually 
writes the code.


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GSOC Project idea: OpenPGP integration

[Terri Oda]

On 04/26/2013 12:45 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

OTOH, maybe that's all security theater.  If the Mailman system's private key
is available to an attacker, then having the encrypted message on disk
temporarily is probably not going to stop them from decrypting it.


I've been wondering about that... is there any time when the encrypted 
message on disk would be available but the private key not?


- snapshot backups of Mailman queues but not the key
- corrupted filesystems
- unusual permissions that allow access to the queues but not the key
- mailman is only allowed to deal with encrypted messages when someone 
inserts the key which is stored on another physical device?


It's probably best to keep things encrypted as much as possible just in 
case there is a threat model we're not thinking of, but unless we're 
doing more to protect the key, I'm not sure we're gaining much.


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Architecture for extra profile info

[Terri Oda]

So... What have we decided? :)

From my fuzzy I read my email on a plane after delta woke me up at 3am 
to tell me my flight was cancelled level of recollection


The few things I we actually agreed on:

- We like the idea of a rest interface.

- That interface/API should probably be decided now and relatively 
permanently


- then implementation details can be changed later as necessary (so it 
doesn't matter if we start with django or whether mailman-user reads 
from mailman-core or vice versa, as long as it gets done and fulfills 
the promises of the API)


- something something oauth something

Can someone sketch out what that REST interface will look like as an 
actual architectural document that we can comment on?  I don't care who 
does this; we just need somewhere to start, so any subscriber to this 
list can probably summarize the emails into a useful document.


 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] anti-spam filter

[Terri Oda]

On 13-04-18 6:40 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:
If we stop at a programmable interface - which I understand is what 
you and Terri suggest - they will not be able to use Mailman in more 
complex setups, because integrating additional mail processing 
components would require them to program.


Oi, I hope that's not what it sounded like I was advocating.  I want a 
fair bit more than just an generic interface.


In my ideal world, the deliverable for this project will be everything 
a sysadmin needs to integrate SpamBayes, SpamAssassin, and maybe 2 other 
related mail filtering tools (e.g. ClamAV?) This includes an installer 
for each one or at least a set of INSTALL_$SPAM_SOLUTION.TXT files and 
all the work necessary so that they have about 2 steps that amount to 
install the thing and enable the thing in mailman by flipping this 
switch/changing this config option.


So I think in that respect, Patrick and I are on the same page.


I don't think we're saying exactly oh, all sysadmins could do this in a 
few minutes so much as is this really worth a whole summer of 
mentoring time given that most of our mentors could write it in 2 weeks 
themselves if they had need?  The question is whether it's a viable 
GSoC project, not so much whether it's a thing that would be useful to 
someone, someday.


*I* still think that there's potential for a good GSoC proposal that 
includes spam filtering, assuming the student understands that this is 
more of an integration project (NOT a build a spam filter! project) 
and the student is willing to pair this with some other useful features 
in order to be sure of having 12 weeks of work.


 Terri

PS -  milters sound like something any students interested in this 
project should read up on and mention in their proposals why they 
did/didn't choose to go that route.  It's a good way to show that you've 
been paying attention to discussions here! :)



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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Architecture for extra profile info

[Terri Oda]

On 13-04-18 8:03 AM, Richard Wackerbarth wrote:

On Apr 18, 2013, at 1:19 AM, Florian Fuchs flo.fu...@gmail.com wrote:


1) It should be self-contained.
Meaning: It should not depend on any
mailman/mailman.client/postorius/hyperkitty packages.

Agreed


I agree about not needing postorious/hyperkitty, but I think a case 
could be made that interdependence with mailman core and mailman client 
might make sense.

I would advocate that this User module make it appear as if stores the entire 
record for the user.
In the implementation, it could actually store parts of the user information in 
multiple databases (one of which could be the MM-core).

This would also allow the option of having the MM-core become a client of this 
User module, just as it now relies on an external message store.


Two options occur to me:

1. The user module is what mm-core uses for all user stuff.

I thinks case, case we have to be *much* more conservative about 
dependencies.  I think Django would be right out as a dependency for 
Mailman core, for example.  Plus, we're going to have to care a lot more 
about speed and all.


2. The user module reads from mm-core and augments it.

This gives us the ability to supplement mm-core without impeding speed.  
We discussed possibly filling in the blanks with respect to things like 
the user preferences (which are currently set by membership, by user and 
by email address... but a lot of those return an empty set when queried 
if nothing is set directly there...) so this is maybe something we 
already want.


Conceptually, #1 is probably easier because everything will be in one 
place, but if we do #2 right, we can make it just as conceptually easy 
for HyperKitty/Postorius/etc. without impeding Barry's core dev at all.  
That does mean in case 2 that Mailman Extraneous User Stuff is going to 
depend on Mailman Core, though.


My preference is #2:
a) It doesn't add any dependencies to Mailman core.
b) It doesn't require big changes in Mailman Core.  Given that core is 
pretty much ready to release, now would be a bad time for changes, and 
I'm just not sure we can justify that amount of work for the types of 
features that will be built on the extraneous user stuff.
c) It will be much easier to rip this out and replace it when we better 
understand our actual needs.   (e.g. Right now, I think a case could be 
made that a quick mock-up in django would be fine, but I suspect that 
requiring django for some potential applications would border on ridiculous)


We're probably going to be running around with a bit of a hack job for 
the user database in the near future (either done by a student who needs 
it in a hurry or done by one of the core devs to support a student who 
needs it in a hurry) so while I don't like to design on the assumption 
it's going to go wrong, I think in this case planning for a redesign 
might be prudent because it's pretty clear we don't actually know all 
our requirements.


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Architecture for extra profile info

[Terri Oda]

On 13-04-18 2:28 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Main comment: Sounds like LDAP to me.
Actually, this is a really important comment.  I was sort of wondering 
that too when I started writing the description.  LDAP is a moderately 
frequently requested feature already.  Would it make sense to use that 
probably rather than rest, or make a rest framework that talked to ldap 
under the hood?


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] anti-spam filter

[Terri Oda]

On 13-04-18 1:40 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:
I - personal opinion - think adding a anti-spam/abuse filter is a good 
idea. I do however stronly oppose against a hardcoded implemenation 
that e.g. integrates SpamAssassin only or a new Bayesian filter.


I hope that no one was seriously considering that level of hardcoding.  
What we are almost certainly talking about is setting up a handler (I 
think Stephen estimated this to be around 10 lines of code).


I do think we'll want some related UI options so that list admins could 
do supervised learning as well, but since that's mostly a mark this as 
spam as an option other than just reject this posting (which could 
also indicate a duplicate or someone posting from a work address or 
whatever) and we should be able to generalize the hooks to send that 
information to whatever system(s) are in use.


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Build a mailman3 development virtual machine with Vagrant and Chef

[Terri Oda]

Yeay, thanks!

If you've got time, could you make sure your vm is linked on the mailman 
wiki docs?  You can replace the comment I have on the GSoC page for 
sure, and there's probably a good place to link it in a couple setting 
up your dev environment pages.


 Terri

On 13-04-18 1:39 AM, Xu Wang wrote:

Hi there,

Although mailman3 installation is well documented, but putting everything
together is still not a trivial job.

To ease the task, I made a mailman3 chef cookbook and vagrant file:

https://github.com/xuwang/mailman3-vbox

If you already had virtualbox/vagrant installed on your mac or pc, build a
working mailman3 vm should only take a few minutes.

I'm sure there will be things I missed or got it wrong, but it just a
starter.

Hope this helps,

Xu Wang
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GSOC 2013 project discussion

[Terri Oda]

On 13-04-17 6:56 AM, Avik Pal wrote:

  Meanwhile It would be much appreciated if someone can direct me to
an labeled dataset available on line.

Leaving aside entirely the question of whether we should (or will) 
support any project that requires learning on this scale, as a former 
anti-spam researcher, I can at least answer this question.


Unfortunately, the answer is largely good luck with that -- good 
labelled email data is surprisingly hard to come by, and that challenge 
is one of the reasons I stopped doing research in that area.


When I was doing anti-spam research, the only viable public classified 
ham/spam set was the SpamAssassin one.  I don't believe it's been 
maintained with modern messages and at this point it may be useless.


Shortly after I left the field, people started using the Enron data set, 
which is pretty well classified by now, but again, is pretty long in the 
tooth.


Given that you're going to want to be classifying mailing list data, you 
may have to produce some synthetic data sets using information from 
publicly available mailing lists (e.g. the public archives of 
mailman-developers are available) and combining them with other data 
sources (e.g. publicly available collections of spam).  This won't have 
a whole lot of interesting sub-labels (some lists will have more than 
others, depending on their use of dlists/topics/pre-classification by 
the sender) and a synthetic set is generally regarded as a poor 
information source for reproducible results, but it could be enough in a 
pinch given that you're adding a feature rather than publishing 
scientific work.


Note that the GSoC timeline doesn't allow time for finding and creating 
such a set, so if you're going to use one, you should determine in 
advance what you'll be using and and be able to provide a link to the 
completely-ready-for-gsoc set in your proposal.


 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] anti-spam filter

[Terri Oda]

On 13-04-16 10:31 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Pratik Sarkar writes:

   I am working on the proposal.And how many slots are there for the filter
   project?

There are no slots for the filter project as such.  The whole Mailman
project has slots, and they are somewhat fluid, since we operate under
the umbrella of the Python Software Foundation.  For further details,
like actual numbers, Terri Oda (PSF org admin) is authoritative.

Please be patient on this, as Terri is *very* busy right now.  Also,
you may not get hard numbers until the selection is actually made,
since the PSF has to balance many projects.

Stephen's right -- we don't pre-set our slots.  We're basically going to 
rank the applications we get in the order of most want to mentor to 
least want to mentor with some adjustments for the availability and 
interests of specific mentors so each mentor will get a project and 
student who suits them, then we'll accept the top X students.  Probably 
we will not use more than one slot for any particular project this year, 
but that discussion will happen among mentors during selection.


How many slots will we have?  Luckily for you, despite being busy, I've 
had to answer this question a few times already, so here's cut-and-paste 
from another email to one of the mentors who asked:


---
The short answer is it depends on what Google will give us.

The PSF, in the past, has taken on around 35 students.  But this year, 
we've grown by at least 50% in terms of projects.  We may, by the time 
applications open, have as many as 19 sub-projects working under our 
umbrella.  I'm hoping to request and receive at least enough slots for 
each project to get two students if they have the mentors to support 
this, so the rule of thumb for now can probably be that you'll all get 
slots for up to 2 students.


For the projects participating for the first time this year, probably 
1-2 slots is the right number.  But some of our projects are veteran 
GSoC participants who have significantly more than the minimum 3 
required mentors.  Those projects, hopefully, will be able to get more 
slots since I know they can and will successfully support more 
students.  In previous years, Google's been great about letting us have 
all the slots we tell them we want and can support, but with the amount 
of growth we've had this year, I'm hesitant to make any promises.

---


Mailman is one of these veteran projects.  I believe we currently have 6 
mentors listed, but given my schedule for this year I'll be at most a 
co-mentor, and given his usually busy schedule Barry may do the same, so 
my guess is that at most, we'll be able to justify asking for 4 slots 
this year.


 Terri



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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GSOC 2013 project discussion

[Terri Oda]

On 13-04-17 10:10 AM, Avik Pal wrote:
Don't lose hope Terri, after digging for a couple of hours came across 
this and its pretty much updated. http://untroubled.org/spam/


Finding sources of spam (like that one) isn't that hard; it's finding 
sources of legit email combined with spam and classified and processed 
in the same way that's challenging.  As I said, you can combine a spam 
source like this with a publicly available mailing list to make a 
synthetic set, but scientifically speaking, those aren't really 
preferred ways to handle data because they come from multiple sources.


The problem is that when you have multiple sources it sometimes becomes 
too easy for a classifier to classify on less-than-useful features for 
future use.  For example, one might classify on the fact that the list 
address won't appear in any of the To: or Cc: lines in the spam data 
because it comes from a different source, the fact that many of the 
spams will be from different time periods, the fact that the spam data 
is anonymized differently from any list data you might have, etc.  You 
will wind up doing a lot of work to normalize the data sets to avoid 
these classifiers (and we're talking weeks of really boring work here, 
potentially, that you need to start Right Now if you're going to be 
using such a set), and you run the risk of missing out on features that 
would have been useful in a single-source set that have been completely 
obliterated by the synthetic data set.


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GSOC 2013 project discussion

[Terri Oda]

I'm glad you're somewhat aware of the issues.  I frequently encounter 
folk who aren't aware of the issues in machine learning, so your don't 
lose hope email set off all kinds of warning bells in my head.


Going back to GSoC-specific stuff:

- Enron is a very old data set
- If you're going to use it, you need to be prepared to defend that 
choice.  I'm not sure it's a choice that can be defended at all, knowing 
the field.  It's probably not only an old data set, but a completely 
counter-productive one given the space in which Mailman operates.


So here's some things to think about:

(1) I want some justification of how this is going to be relevant to the 
problem you're trying to solve, which is helping classify spam emails 
sent to a mailing list that the MTA was unable to classify


(2) Many existing classifiers that run at the MTA level have already 
used the enron data set, so chances are any features you learn will 
either already have been incorporated.  I have severe concerns that any 
new features you learn will result in over-fitting.  How can you believe 
that yet another classifier trained on the same data will be worth the 
processing overhead and resulting delays in mail delivery when it seems 
likely that any improvement will be incremental at best?


(3) Enron is not going to help you make use of any list-specific 
features.  How can you use this data set to produce something that is 
useful to Mailman, going beyond what any MTA-level spam filter can do?  
(Note that we've been telling people to do spam filtering at the MTA 
level for years and years and years; justifying this is not going to be 
an easy task)


(4) If you're going to do cross-validation with other data to make 
claims that the final classifier will be relevant to list data, how is 
that data going to be obtained, processed, and used?


(5) Unless you've got a plan for making extensive use of the fact that 
you're classifying mailing list data and not general email, you're 
pretty much wasting our time since we are only interested in projects 
relevant to Mailman.


To be completely honest, I'm still seeing student project for data 
mining class level thinking here, and that's not going to be good 
enough for us.  Especially considering that you didn't even know about 
the most common data sets for this problem, I'm concerned that you 
haven't yet reached the skill and experience necessary for us to 
seriously consider a classifier as even a small part of a GSoC project.  
We have to give priority to students who we are convinced can finish 
their projects, and it seems like there's too many chances of you 
getting stuck on finding data and using it correctly on a problem that 
is actually meaningful to Mailman and not just a general classification 
task.


 Terri


On 13-04-17 10:51 AM, Avik Pal wrote:
  ya I get your point, but see these are part of any machine learning 
project, and feature extraction has to be done considering the 
synthetic data set.



On 17 April 2013 22:05, Terri Oda te...@zone12.com 
mailto:te...@zone12.com wrote:




Finding sources of spam (like that one) isn't that hard; it's
finding sources of legit email combined with spam and classified
and processed in the same way that's challenging.  As I said, you
can combine a spam source like this with a publicly available
mailing list to make a synthetic set, but scientifically speaking,
those aren't really preferred ways to handle data because they
come from multiple sources.


well in this regard the only thing I can do is keep looking, I am 
also aware that coming from different sources can make them skewed but 
again these things are never perfect and there are always scope for 
betterment, I think that our aim should be to implement a rudimentary 
classifier with fairly good performance to start with.


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[Mailman-Developers] Architecture for extra profile info

[Terri Oda]

Background for folk new to this discussion:

Currently, all user information is stored in Mailman core, but it's 
minimal: a real name, a set of email addresses, subscription info, and 
preferences.  Barry suggests that it should stay minimal: only the 
things Mailman needs to know to correctly deliver mail (which actually 
doesn't include real name but let's leave that as a legacy item for 
the moment)


It's pretty likely that future features of Mailman will want to attach 
extra information to users.  Some of it will be social-y stuff like user 
icons for HyperKitty to display in the archives. Other things include 
metrics like when did this person last post to the list? or how many 
posts have they made over the lifetime of this list?  One thing I know 
of is that Systers requires a short essay for all new subscribers, 
explaining why they want to join the list.   (And they're considering 
porting this feature to Postorius, which means we potentially want an 
answer to where will the extra profile data get stored? before their 
students start coding.)


So...

I think we've sort of agreed that it would be best if whatever we built 
just had a rest interface and hyperkitty/postorius/whatever would talk 
to it through there, and could share data that way, but we need a simple 
prototype that folk (particularly students) will be able to start using, 
and there's still some internal architecture decisions that need to be 
made.


Does anyone have time to build such a thing or write up some short 
architectural documents so a student could build such a thing in 
relatively short order?  It doesn't have to be the perfect final design, 
but we probably need a basic starter api for adding, accessing, editing 
and possibly even removing profile data.


Thoughts?

 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Boilerplate and content filtering [was: Introduction and Project Discussion]

[Terri Oda]

On 13-04-16 7:39 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

On Apr 16, 2013, at 06:49 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:


In more detail, here's something I drafted at the Mailman Sprint.
I can say that Terri got a kick out of it, but remember, it's not
official, it's just my opinion.  (I really should put it on the wiki,
but I'm not sure where or even how -- does Confluence do ReST?)

I love it too, but no, afaik Confluence doesn't do reST.  I hope we're not far
from converting to Moin though.

I love it three. ;)   If anyone's got time to fix the URLs to minimize 
confusion, I'm happy to have it be our official docs.


Pandoc should be able to convert rest-wiki
http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/

(it won't quite be confluence wiki, but if I recall correctly they're 
close enough)



Or, if it's less trouble, feel free to stick it on the Python wiki 
(which is moin) under SummerOfCode; I was hoping to link to it anyhow as 
advice to help students, so it is actually going to be relevant to 
python students in general.


 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Setting up a VM.

[Terri Oda]

Hi Peter,

Sorry about not getting back to you earlier; I'm the org admin for the 
PSF for the first time this year, and in case that wasn't enough, we've 
grown considerably and I've got a huge amount of email.  Thanks for 
pinging me off-list to let me know I missed this one once you figured 
out i was the one who needed to see it.


The short answer is just +1  (Which, if you're not used to this 
particular terminology, means that's a good idea; go ahead and do it)


So yeah, go ahead and get a VM set up; you don't need to ask.

You'll probably want to follow the mailman install instructions here:
http://pythonhosted.org/mailman/

Chris, who was working on such a thing before, seems to have gotten 
stuck somewhere.  You might want to ping him to see if the two of you 
can work together to sort out any problems (I'm cc'ing him so he sees 
this mail) or if he can offer any advice.  You might also want to do a 
quick search through the archives to see what we told him when he asked 
about setting things up.  You probably also want to talk to other 
incoming students who've already set up their dev environment since 
they'll have any issues they encountered fresh in their minds!


If you're looking for some help via IRC, most of our mentors and a 
decent number of students are on IRC when they have some time.  I think 
wacky is our most stalwart IRC'er, so you may want to ping him if you're 
having trouble getting someone's attention.  Many of us are are on IRC 
while busy doing other things, so if you want someone's attention the 
best way is to say their irc nick name in channel: most IRC clients are 
set up to help bring anything directed at us to our attention.


When you get to the point of a final working VM, either post a link here 
 to the wiki, or if you need hosting, ask on the mailing list.  I know 
I have access to some machines that can do it, but I'm sure I'm not the 
only one.


FYI:  I've got a friend flying in for a visit tonight, so I'm pretty 
much going to be offline as much as possible for a couple of days, but 
hopefully that should get you pointers to other people who be more 
available to help this weekend.


 Terri


On 13-04-11 3:23 AM, Peter Markou wrote:

Hello again community.

Two days ago I made a sort introduction of my self and stated that I'm
interested in implementing the Web Posting Interface project(through this
e-mail -
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/msg13451.html).

In order to getting started with Mailman development I went through the
equivalent quote(here -
http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Google+Summer+of+Code+2013).
Since I'm able to consume the services described here :
https://okeanos.grnet.gr/services/cyclades/ , I would like to setup a VM
and also make it available for future developers.

If you're interested in this, poke me to arrange a meeting in IRC and
discuss any further details.

Best regards,
Peter Markou.
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC 2013 - GNU Mailman - Introduction and Project Discussion

[Terri Oda]

On 13-04-11 10:44 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

1.  Mailman is the wrong place to do filtering.  It's equally
 effective, normally covers more messages, and is somewhat more
 efficient in resource usage to do it at the MTA.
2.  Any new algorithms*should*  be made available at the MTA level
 where they can be best put to use by more people.  This implies
 something that either plugs into existing filters (such as
 spamassassin) or MTAs (ie, milters) rather than a Handler.
3.  Adapting existing filters is generally pretty trivial: you write a
 10-line custom Handler that pipes it to an external process.  This
 isn't big enough for a GSoC project.
4.  To the extent that new algorithms are involved, I have doubts that
 Mailman mentors have the kind of expertise needed to really help
 with such a project (I could be wrong, but I certainly don't know
 much about that kind of text processing, and I don't know that
 anybody else in Mailman has expertise in it).


Writing individual pipelines may be trivial, but making a user interface 
for managing said pipelines is non-trivial.  Right now, our pipeline 
management interface is there's a text box in postorius that lets you 
choose a pipeline.  It's not even a dropdown, and you may be screwed if 
you make a typo which is obviously not how I want it when we release. ;)


I see a potential project timeline going something like this:

A. make a set of custom Mailman 3 Handlers for some well-known existing 
anti-spam/anti-malware software.  (Maybe 2-3 weeks of work here, finding 
2-4 reasonable pieces of software, setting them up, writing the 
handlers, and testing them)


B. make an interface in Postorius so list admins can 
enable/disable/reorder these and any whitelisting happening within 
mailman.  This should involve making an interface in Postorius that 
gives admins the ability to change the Pipeline being used, and will 
likely involve a small amount of user testing to make sure said 
interface doesn't have risk of disastrous results if the administrator 
does the wrong thing.  (Another 3-4 weeks of work including user 
testing, unit tests, and documentation)


C. Figure out how to set up some sort of packager that can install 
handlers + antispam software so that the site admin has an easy way to 
set these up if requested. (Another 3-4 weeks of work, including testing 
any scripts on a few different OSes and extensive documentation)


D. If there's any time leftover, implement some clever new filter (and 
appropriate Handler) that makes use of the list information itself (e.g. 
subscriber list, archives, etc.) to make better spam decisions. (at this 
point, you've got maybe 2 weeks left in the GSoC timeline)



I think that constitutes enough useful-to-mailman work to justify the 
google funds, gets us some customizable spam filtering (which as you 
say, is a frequently requested feature), but doesn't turn us into 
something we're not.  That's why anti-spam made this year's gsoc list 
even though we've always said do it in the MTA and I'm not about to 
change that policy in general.


Do feel free to disagree with me, of course, Stephen. Or complain that 
I'm using the lure of antispam to get someone solve my user interface 
for pipelines problem, which I totally am. ;)


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman not in GSOC'13 accepted organization

[Terri Oda]

Just like last year, Mailman's going to be participating as a 
sub-organization under the Python Software Foundation.  Unfortunately, 
this means that our name doesn't show up directly on the org list -- 
you'll need to click through from python to find us.


I'm going to set up some tags so the sub-orgs will be more visible to 
those searching that list, but it probably won't get done 'till I'm 
finished work for the day.


 Terri

On 04/09/2013 09:44 AM, Avik Pal wrote:

Hello,
 can not see mailman in GSOC'13 accepted organization list, I am
a bit baffled. did it make through this year?




Avik Pal
Bengal Engineering  Scieence University,Shibpur
github:https://github.com/avikpal
IRC:- irc://freenode/avikp,isnick
twitter:-https://twitter.com/avikpalme





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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Like to participate in GSOC 2013 (GNU Mailman) - Like some ideas proposed in the list (Django, Python)

[Terri Oda]

On 13-04-08 10:19 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
The thing about Windows is that we're using several *nix-isms in 
process management and possibly in other places. I have no burning 
desire to try to make these Windows compatible.


I'll bet the documentation would bite us pretty badly, too.

While I don't think it's impossible to run mailman on windows, I'd 
rather the effort went to making this release awesome for the platforms 
we already support rather than making it run on other platforms.  Maybe 
in a year or two when we're a bit more stable so porting won't be a 
continual drain on resources?


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] GSOC 2013 - Introduction and Project Discussion

[Terri Oda]

On 13-04-08 5:27 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Pierre-Yves Chibon writes:
   On Sat, 2013-04-06 at 15:03 +0530, Udit Saxena wrote:
2. Web Posting Interface.
  
   Isn't this similar/overlapping to what HyperKitty already does?

No.  There's no reason why a web posting interface needs to interact
with the archives; it can talk directly to Mailman core, and will need
to do so for other features such as authentication, sister lists, and
the like.  You get archiving for free.


I think Stephen covered most of it, but I just want to add that I had in 
mind that if we do the separate posting interface right, we might be 
able to use this as the beginnings of a way to integrate any existing 
forum software into Mailman, much like we want to gateway from newsgroups.


That said...

I'm totally ok with this particular project being entirely part of 
hyperkitty in the short-term, though, since it'll clearly be a nice fit 
there right now and goodness knows I don't want to deal with yet another 
django-standalone instance running just to post messages. ;)   The only 
reason I didn't suggest this be part of hyperkitty in the project 
description is that when I was writing up project information, I didn't 
know if any of the hyperkitty team would have time to mentor.  If one of 
the hyperkitty devs wants to take the lead on mentoring this project, 
that would work for me!


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Like to participate in GSOC 2013 (GNU Mailman) - Like some ideas proposed in the list (Django, Python)

[Terri Oda]

On 13-04-07 8:00 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

This would solve the environment problem for students!  Dunno if it's
strictly better than an AWS instance, but I bet many would prefer it.

I *do* have an older fedora vm set up for postorius work, which can be 
run from vmware on windows.  It hasn't been updated since the GHC13 
codeathon (fall 2012), but if anyone needs it to play with, I can put it 
somewhere accessible.  It isn't set up to deliver email, but it 
shouldn't be impossible to set it up if someone needs it.


 Terri

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