Re: [Mailman-Developers] Query regarding plugin integration with mailman3
Aanand Shekhar Roy writes: Banned word plug-in, which was also then added to the wiki page of idea lists) As you know, I'm not a fan of this one. This feature as a plug-in is desired by many list admins. So that they can maintain a decency on the list and avoid usage of certain unwanted words. I personally talked to some people about this as plugin and the response was enthusiastic. I don't think you read what I wrote. If not, DO IT NOW. If you did, DO IT AGAIN. For eg. 1) If I run a list that takes feedback from customers about services of my company provides , then I wouldn't want abuses or indecent reviews since the list is public and might hurt anyone's sentiments. 2) My list discusses on social causes and some anti social elements use racial slurs and strong views against a particular group, I might want to avoid this from the list. I'm insulted that you think I'm such a slut that I don't understand the motivation for this idea. I'm pretty much decided that I will be unlikely to be willing to mentor you, and I doubt you're doing yourself any favors with the other potential mentors. You have *more than enough* time to change my mind, but your attitude so far isn't encouraging. A quick hint: I'm not trying to tell you that requiring politically correct speech is stupid. What I'm trying to tell you is that banning the seven words you can never say on television[1] is neither trivial nor sufficient. IMO a trivial implementation will suck, a better implementation (eg, the generic regexp-based one I described) probably will be less than useful to many (IMHO, most) potential users, and a *good* implementation probably cannot be done by a mailing list, period. If you think you know better than that, be my guest, but you'd better address the practical problems of designing a nice *implementation*, not insist on the desirability of the *concept*, or you will have trouble attracting a mentor. I wish to combine it with other plug-ins that I am going to propose so that together they can make a summer sized project. As I already told you, AFAIK that's risky. GSoC is about *one* summer-sized idea, not about enough ideas to keep me writing trivial programs for the whole summer. I will ask Carol when I get back from this business trip, but if I were you I'd start looking for *one* project you're not quite sure you'll be able to finish by August 1 if you start *right* now. That's about the right size IMO. Note: I do not speak for the Mailman project, and I definitely don't speak for Google on this. But the clock is ticking and you deserve an answer so you can get to work, and that's my answer for now. I'll get back to you later after I've asked Carol. If you get a better answer from somebody else, go with that. Footnotes: [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_dirty_words ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] Query regarding plugin integration with mailman3
I am extremely sorry for behaving stupidly. I in no means meant to insult you. You are far senior in all terms and I am ashamed to have dis-honoured you unwillingly. I got a bit excited over that without thinking rationally. I'll try my best not repeat such an illogical action in future. I'll work for a better proposal for gsoc. Sorry again. Regards Aanand ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] Query regarding plugin integration with mailman3
Banned word plug-in, which was also then added to the wiki page of idea lists) As you know, I'm not a fan of this one. This feature as a plug-in is desired by many list admins. So that they can maintain a decency on the list and avoid usage of certain unwanted words. I personally talked to some people about this as plugin and the response was enthusiastic. For eg. 1) If I run a list that takes feedback from customers about services of my company provides , then I wouldn't want abuses or indecent reviews since the list is public and might hurt anyone's sentiments. 2) My list discusses on social causes and some anti social elements use racial slurs and strong views against a particular group, I might want to avoid this from the list. I seek your reviews on this idea. and then if the time allows I will work on others like Timed Vacation, since I am willing to contribute to mailman even after Gsoc . This one I like, actually, except that the probable code size is small. It's obviously useful, it will be obvious to users how to use it, it's obviously quite self-contained. It's a winning feature. I wish to combine it with other plug-ins that I am going to propose so that together they can make a summer sized project. Auto moderation system for limiting posts on a particular thread I am trying to work around the approach that can be used to build such a system. I will get back to you after I get something substantial on it. Regards Aanand ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] Query regarding plugin integration with mailman3
Aanand Shekhar Roy writes: Suppose I have posted my confidential information on mailing list, and the list setting is neither accept nor discard any mails having confidential information. I think you really should give up on this idea as stated. This function really should be implemented in the user agent, as a plug-in with a large dictionary of user-contributed criteria, as Spamassassin does for spam. Such a plug-in could also be used in the enterprise in the MTA. But a list knows too little about confidential, it knows too little about individual concerns for privacy, to do a good job. The only thing going for a list is that lists often are relatively public and so relatively high potential for leaks. But it's quite easy for an MUA to figure out which destinations are lists (most lists nowadays sport RFC 2369 header fields), so that takes care of the list. The MUA also can be intelligent about things like corporate contact addresses in the automatically added footer. More important, the author of the mail controls the rules (see disadvantage 2.d below). What to do instead: You can generalize to allow Mailman to filter on regular expressions in the body (this should be easy to do simply, but watch out for MIME structure and very large messages). That has been requested in the past. I believe the reason we don't do that already is that applications like Spamassassin and ClamAV do the job of filtering for malicious mail *much* better than we can (because they already have those libraries of criteria), and there aren't other good use cases. I'm not sure this is big enough to be a GSoC project (Mark or Barry would have better judgment), but it's much more likely to be useful and could be applied to your desired application. So I had to ask which one approach is better? Both seem pretty bad to me. 1.Including a command like accept_confidential at start of message or subject. This has three disadvantages. a. Users are notoriously poor at using the commands, and not very good at spelling them correctly. b. If you reject the mail and *don't* provide the original text, the user has to reconstruct the mail from memory if they haven't saved it. (This may not be such a problem with modern MUAs, but the ones I use don't keep file copies of sent mail automatically.) c. If you reject the mail and *do* provide the original text, you are providing a spam vector. (Spammer sends mail *from* the victim's address and includes confidential information but deliberately omits the command.) 2.Sending the mail, getting an auto-reply from reply-bot like your mail contains confidential info. reply with confirm . This has four disadvantages. a. Most users are unlikely to care about the phone numbers etc in their mail. False positive rate will be high, and the please confirm spams similarly annoying. b. If you reject the mail and *don't* provide the original text, the user has to reconstruct the mail from memory if they haven't saved it. True, the list has the mail and will resend it, but the user needs to be able to figure out *why* the mail was held, and that may not be at all obvious without the original text. c. If you reject the mail and *do* provide the original text, you are providing a spam vector. (Spammer sends mail *from* the victim's address and includes confidential information.) d. Since the author doesn't control the rule set, it may be *impossible* for her to construct a mail that will convey the desired information and still pass the filter. ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] Query regarding plugin integration with mailman3
Aanand Shekhar Roy writes: Banned word plug-in, which was also then added to the wiki page of idea lists) As you know, I'm not a fan of this one. and then if the time allows I will work on others like Timed Vacation, since I am willing to contribute to mailman even after Gsoc . This one I like, actually, except that the probable code size is small. It's obviously useful, it will be obvious to users how to use it, it's obviously quite self-contained. It's a winning feature. Is that ok or do i increase or decrease the no. ? I'm going to need to ask Carol about number. As I understand it, GSoC is supposed to be one summer-sized project to give the interns a taste of what it's like to work on a project that can't be done in a single all-night sprint. It also has the benefit of being a lot more interesting for the mentors. That is, if you write 5 bite-sized plugins, most of your code will be API and testing boilerplate, repeated 5 times. Though it depends more on the complexity of my idea but since every setting we make in mailman needs to be reflected to web UI too so I guess it will be big enough for Gsoc. If the Postorius folks are doing their job that's not a big deal, *much* smaller than writing documentation, let alone tests. Since following up this idea wouldn't be as great. Can you guide on Auto moderation system for limiting posts on a particular thread posted by a user Like first 5 post will reach immediately, later 5 will be after 1 hour delay and so on. As a project it has quite a bit of flavor. There are some interesting issues having to do with the impact on message queues, and whether it could present an opportunity for DOS attacks on the server (note that even if you don't fill the disk, you could end up with a lot of messages queued for delivery all at once sometime next week). It might be interesting to think about alternative triggers for delivery, such as having a don't-post-before attribute in msg_data, and instead of running the queue at a specific time, just wait until the next time the queue would normally be run, and if the current time is greater than don't-post-before, post. Note that there's no guarantee that messages will be delivered at a given time in any case. You can only ensure a minimum delay, but if an MX goes down in the meantime, a 1 hour delay could turn into days. ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] Query regarding plugin integration with mailman3
Hi, I have a doubt regarding auto-responding Suppose I have posted my confidential information on mailing list, and the list setting is neither accept nor discard any mails having confidential information.Whether it should be posted or not depends on the user .So I had to ask which one approach is better? 1.Including a command like accept_confidential at start of message or subject. or 2.Sending the mail, getting an auto-reply from reply-bot like your mail contains confidential info. reply with confirm . Regards Aanand ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] Query regarding plugin integration with mailman3
Thanks Steve for guiding me through. I am working on your advise. Aanand Shekhar Roy writes: I was wondering if this approach for creating the plug-in would work: When the plugin is installed, its .config file will check if required interfaces are present in the local machine and find and install the code of plug-in at required place in local machine. A new Rule gets added(by .config file) in src/mailman/rules that uses IRule interface which checks our requirements(i.e. confidential information check, banned words etc). This rule will be added in src/mailman/chain. The rule is checked when chain runs and takes the action set corresponding to the rule. We make a module implementing IHandler that modifies the text before forwarding it in the pipeline in which the whole process is running. I think you're getting way ahead of yourself. The normal installation process is for the site administrator or the host administrator to just copy the plugin module into the installation, pip any supporting modules from PyPI, and add the Handler or Rule to the appropriate pipeline or chain by editing the site config or (for list-local features) the list config. I don't see a need for .configs that check interfaces and install code. Why do you think you need such things? Since all of the features you've mentioned so far are mutators, I don't really see a need for Rules. Implement the checks in the Handler. Either you'll need to duplicate those checks anyway to find the places that need changing, or you'll need to invent a rather complex protocol to tell the Handler that does the modification what to do. Yes, the Handler will implement IHandler. ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] Query regarding plugin integration with mailman3
Aanand Shekhar Roy writes: I was wondering if this approach for creating the plug-in would work: When the plugin is installed, its .config file will check if required interfaces are present in the local machine and find and install the code of plug-in at required place in local machine. A new Rule gets added(by .config file) in src/mailman/rules that uses IRule interface which checks our requirements(i.e. confidential information check, banned words etc). This rule will be added in src/mailman/chain. The rule is checked when chain runs and takes the action set corresponding to the rule. We make a module implementing IHandler that modifies the text before forwarding it in the pipeline in which the whole process is running. I think you're getting way ahead of yourself. The normal installation process is for the site administrator or the host administrator to just copy the plugin module into the installation, pip any supporting modules from PyPI, and add the Handler or Rule to the appropriate pipeline or chain by editing the site config or (for list-local features) the list config. I don't see a need for .configs that check interfaces and install code. Why do you think you need such things? Since all of the features you've mentioned so far are mutators, I don't really see a need for Rules. Implement the checks in the Handler. Either you'll need to duplicate those checks anyway to find the places that need changing, or you'll need to invent a rather complex protocol to tell the Handler that does the modification what to do. Yes, the Handler will implement IHandler. ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] Query regarding plugin integration with mailman3
Hi, I was wondering if this approach for creating the plug-in would work: When the plugin is installed, its .config file will check if required interfaces are present in the local machine and find and install the code of plug-in at required place in local machine. A new Rule gets added(by .config file) in src/mailman/rules that uses IRule interface which checks our requirements(i.e. confidential information check, banned words etc). This rule will be added in src/mailman/chain. The rule is checked when chain runs and takes the action set corresponding to the rule. We make a module implementing IHandler that modifies the text before forwarding it in the pipeline in which the whole process is running. Aanand Shekhar Roy writes: I was seeking was how to integrate it with the existing src of mailman in a user's computer. You don't integrate [a plugin] with source. The point of what is conventionally meant by plugin is that you can add it to an existing installation, and it will just work. In Mailman, enabling a handler is done by adding the handler module (either as Python source, which will be automatically compiled, or as a precompiled .pyc) to the handlers directory in the installation. Any packages imported by the plugin can be placed anywhere on the PYTHON_PATH. To actually configure the plugin for use, you install it in the appropriate place in a pipeline or chain. The defaults are kept in pipelines.py and chains.py. I suppose that you can also add them in config/mailman.cfg, but I'm not sure of the syntax (I haven't tried to do this and don't see any documentation or examples in the obvious places). It should also be possible to add handlers to pipelines for individual lists, I guess. ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] Query regarding plugin integration with mailman3
Aanand Shekhar Roy writes: I was seeking was how to integrate it with the existing src of mailman in a user's computer. You don't integrate [a plugin] with source. The point of what is conventionally meant by plugin is that you can add it to an existing installation, and it will just work. In Mailman, enabling a handler is done by adding the handler module (either as Python source, which will be automatically compiled, or as a precompiled .pyc) to the handlers directory in the installation. Any packages imported by the plugin can be placed anywhere on the PYTHON_PATH. To actually configure the plugin for use, you install it in the appropriate place in a pipeline or chain. The defaults are kept in pipelines.py and chains.py. I suppose that you can also add them in config/mailman.cfg, but I'm not sure of the syntax (I haven't tried to do this and don't see any documentation or examples in the obvious places). It should also be possible to add handlers to pipelines for individual lists, I guess. ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] Query regarding plugin integration with mailman3
I am a bit under confusion here, I thought Chain handlers and rules were to be used to create the modules that implement the plug-ins (which i had mentioned in my previous mail, subject:Approach for plugin ideas), what I was seeking was how to integrate it with the existing src of mailman in a user's computer. I was wondering how the modules will get connected to mailman src after they are downloaded and installed. Which is by making a config file and setup.py file. Am i missing something here See src/Mailman/mailman/src/mailman/core/chains.py src/Mailman/mailman/src/mailman/core/pipelines.py [@Barry This stuff seems kinda underdocumented, at least in this module?] This is not the way to create a plugin for a Python program. The chains and pipelines code show the right way to do that: create a simple module that Python can import given its name, and then have that module do any further loading of code necessary for the plugin implementation. The question that remains is whether a chain (which is used to check whether a message should be distributed at all) or a pipeline handler (which manipulates messages) is sufficient for the plugins you envision. I don't see why they would not be -- they are quite general mechanisms -- but there may be edge cases I haven't thought of. ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/2013165%40iiitdmj.ac.in Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
