[Marxism] British imperialsm and working class living standards

[Philip Ferguson via Marxism]

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"In this way we are helped to maintain our social services at a level
incomparably higher than that of any European country, or indeed of any
country.”  - Winston Churchill, 1929
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[Marxism] On Aretha

[Philip Ferguson via Marxism]

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https://rdln.wordpress.com/2018/08/21/aretha-franklin-1942-2018/
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[Marxism] What would have happened if

[Anthony Boynton via Marxism]

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Well, Lou...if you guys in New York City can pull off a revolutionary in
Brooklyn, I will do my best to join in.

Anthony
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Re: [Marxism] Labour can be Jo Cox?s party or Chris Williamson?s ? it cannot be both

[John Reimann via Marxism]

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Williamson's support for Beeley and Assad is one thing. It is totally
reprehensible. All these allegations about anti-Semitism in the British
Labour Party are something entirely different. Isn't it odd that these
allegations never arose until the left Jeremy Corbyn won the leadership?
And you think anti-Semitism is real in British politics? You should try the
snobs in the Tory party! But this, of course is, ignored. I have a good
friend who's very active in the Labour Party and in its left wing -
Momentum. His last name is Roger Silverman. Is that Jewish enough for you?
He says he has not experienced any anti-Semitism in the LP nor in Momentum.

The claims are largely based on Corbyn's opposition to the racist State of
Israel. Many of those claims originate from the Israeli supporters. And now
socialists are going to join in on that? Here are a couple of articles
dealing with those claims:
https://www.hotpress.com/opinion/eamonn-mccann-jeremy-corbyn-anti-semitism-row-22752609
Roger, himself, has written something on the issue. It is here:
https://oaklandsocialist.com/2018/04/06/corbyn-an-anti-semite-roger-silverman-comments/


As for Corbyn: Yes, his position on Syria is confused at best. But let's
not overlook is overall role. This has been to bring a whole layer of
idealistic and angry youth into political activism and to oppose austerity.
If he becomes the next Prime Minister, I think many of these same youth
will not stand passively by if the new government supports Assad, as
Western imperialism in general is doing today. Both the Conservatives and
the Blairites in the LP have been looking for a way to undermine Corbyn
ever since he rose to prominence. Are we really going to join in on that
chorus, the same chorus that conflates opposition to Zionism and the racist
State of Israel with anti-Semitism? Really?

John Reimann

-- 
*“In politics, abstract terms conceal treachery.” *from "The Black
Jacobins" by C. L. R. James
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
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[Marxism] Rutgers caves to outrage mob: Professor faces punishment for Facebook posts about white people, Harlem gentrification - FIRE

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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James Livingstone is a FB friend and a major Marxist scholar. This is 
not the same thing as George Ciccariello-Maher with his idiotic Tweets. 
He got in trouble apparently by writing sharp critiques of 
gentrification in Harlem.


https://www.thefire.org/rutgers-caves-to-outrage-mob-professor-faces-punishment-for-facebook-posts-about-white-people-harlem-gentrification/
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[Marxism] BBC World Service - The Forum, Friedrich Engels: The Man Behind Karl Marx

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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Jonathan Sperber, author of a Karl Marx bio, and 3 others discuss Marx 
and Engels. I heard about 15 minutes of it last night and it is great. 
Not streamed, but a downloadable file.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cswpsd
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[Marxism] Fwd: H-Net Review [H-Judaic]: Marglin on Sharkey, 'A History of Muslims, Christians, and Jews in the Middle East'

[Andrew Stewart via Marxism]

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Best regards,
Andrew Stewart 

Begin forwarded message:

> From: H-Net Staff 
> Date: August 21, 2018 at 3:51:04 PM EDT
> To: h-rev...@lists.h-net.org
> Subject: H-Net Review [H-Judaic]:  Marglin on Sharkey, 'A History of Muslims, 
> Christians, and Jews in the Middle East'
> Reply-To: H-Net Staff 
> 
> Heather Sharkey.  A History of Muslims, Christians, and Jews in the
> Middle East.  Cambridge  Cambridge University Press, 2017.  394 pp.
> $31.99 (paper), ISBN 978-0-521-18687-2.
> 
> Reviewed by Jessica Marglin (University of Southern California)
> Published on H-Judaic (August, 2018)
> Commissioned by Katja Vehlow
> 
> Heather Sharkey's detailed and meticulous _A History of Muslims,
> Christians, and Jews in the Middle East_ culls the best from recent
> scholarship to offer a welcome and significantly updated narrative of
> inter-religious relations in Middle Eastern history. Her focus is on
> the Ottoman Empire, especially from the eighteenth century until the
> onset of WWI. Sharkey frames her study as the history of a region
> that was once full of religious diversity; various sects of
> Christians, not to mention Jews, "inhabited shared worlds" alongside
> Muslims (p. 1). Her opening two pages catalogue the dwindling and, in
> some cases, disappearance of non-Muslim communities from the Middle
> East. With this book, she aims to present a history of the kind of
> everyday relations among Muslims, Christians, and Jews that no longer
> characterizes what has largely become a mono-religious region.
> 
> Accordingly, Sharkey emphasizes a history of the "mundane," by which
> she means in part the history of quotidian coexistence that was not
> necessarily violent. Sharkey sets her narrative against the
> sensationalism that so often characterizes American media coverage of
> inter-religious relations in the Middle East; instead, she seeks to
> describe how communities spent "decades in a state of proximity
> characterized by relative quiet" (p. 8). Mundane, to Sharkey, also
> implies a kind of social, even anthropological history of everyday
> life drawing on nonstate sources such as "memoirs, cookbooks, novels,
> anthologies, ethnographies, films, and musical recordings" (p. 9). As
> part of her focus on the quotidian, Sharkey sprinkles her synthesis
> with compelling details about material or personal histories. For
> instance, she discusses the introduction of tomatoes into Ottoman
> cuisine as a way to rethink "how much of what people assume as
> traditional now is the product of accumulated (or still accumulating)
> change from the past" (p. 103). She illustrates the history of
> Ottomans' migration to the Americas with an anecdote about Rose Cohen
> Misrie. This Jew from Syria was born in Libya and moved to New York
> in 1906, where she "opened 'The Egyptian Rose,' a kosher and
> self-styled 'Syrian' restaurant ... [serving] canonical Levantine
> dishes ... to a mostly male clientele of 'Syrian, Turkish, and Greek
> Jews'" (p. 197).
> 
> But Sharkey's more important methodological choice is to firmly and
> relentlessly ground her narrative about inter-religious relations in
> a broader history of the Ottoman Empire. Indeed, _A History of
> Muslims, Christians, and Jews_ is best described as a synthetic
> history of the late Ottoman Empire with an emphasis on relations
> between Muslims and non-Muslims. There are distinct advantages to
> Sharkey's method of embedding her analysis of intercommunal
> encounters into a more general history of the region. Needless to
> say, Christians and Jews did not encounter their Muslim neighbors in
> a vacuum; understanding their history requires a solid grounding in
> modern Ottoman history more broadly. This approach does, however,
> mean that Sharkey's book is packed full of information, which may
> make it too challenging for certain audiences (more on this below).
> 
> Sharkey wisely does not aim to evenly cover the entire history of the
> Islamic Middle East. Although the book begins with a chapter on the
> "Islamic foundations" of relations among the main three faiths, the
> remaining four chapters focus on the Ottoman Empire (and three of
> them are on the nineteenth century). As Sharkey explains, there is no
> one way to delimit the Middle East. Her choice to limit the book to
> Ottoman lands certainly makes sense for a modern history, given that
> the Ottomans ruled (more or less directly) the vast majority of the
> region we now call the Middle East for much of the early modern
> period and well into the nineteenth century. But Sharkey does not
> ignore places like Morocco and Iran, both of which remained outside
> the Ottoman orbit (and 

Re: [Marxism] Labour can be Jo Cox’s party or Chris Williamson’s – it cannot be both

[Tim Nelson via Marxism]

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What distinguishes the two is basic good sense. You can criticise or
condemn Israel without calling for "Israelis" to be purged from cities. You
can refuse to engage in debate with the Israeli state without saying you
"don't debate Israelis".

Understand this about Galloway- he makes inflammatory statements while
always framing them in terms that give him and his supporters an "out". You
can technically defend them on paper, but in practice they're poison.

This is the MO of the Stalinist left in Britain. They're unconditional
supporters of Ba'athism, and are deploying anti-Semitism and Islamophobia
to do it.

Tim  N

On Tue, 21 Aug 2018, 19:19 A.R. G,  wrote:

> So what distinguishes a "dog whistle" about Jews from a legitimate
> criticism of Israel or Zionism? What would Galloway have had to say
> instead, in order for it to not be anti-Semitic?
>
> Amith R. Gupta
>
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:16 PM, Tim Nelson  wrote:
>
>> That's why it's dog whistle racism. He purposely codes his language. He
>> didn't call for an end to Israeli products being sold in Bradford, he
>> called for the city to be an "Israeli free zone " . He didn't walk out of
>> the debate saying he doesn't debate with Israeli government
>> representatives. He said "I don't debate Israelis" . You can formally
>> interpret those statements as just anti-Zionist, but the dog whistle is
>> deafening.
>>
>> On Tue, 21 Aug 2018, 19:11 A.R. G,  wrote:
>>
>>> "The difficulty is that many anti-Semites use the word "Zionist" or
>>> "Israeli " when they mean Jew. Look at Galloway for example. He refused to
>>> debate an Israeli, and another time he called for Bradford to be an
>>> "Israeli free zone". "
>>>
>>> I'm confused. Both of those examples *did* deal with Israelis, not
>>> "Jews". One of his comments was about making Bradford free of Israeli
>>> products, which is entirely consistent with boycotts of Israel. His
>>> decision to walk out on the Israeli student, while not smart, was again
>>> aimed at someone who was Israeli. Moveover, the student insisted on
>>> identifying himself as a representative of the Israeli government (e.g. "We
>>> believe that..." where "we" meant both him and the Israeli state, prompting
>>> Galloway to ask what he meant by "we"). Again, not smart, but hardly an
>>> attack on his Jewishness.
>>>
>>> Amith R. Gupta
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Tim Nelson 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Amith

 I'm on my bus on my phone, so citing sources isn't easy.

 Yes, Facebook comments are hardly a clear guide. But I guarantee you
 that anything but a cursory glance at the left in Britain will show you
 that anti-Semitism is real and is a problem. It's far from dominant, but
 there is a minority that either consciously or unconsciously subscribe to
 anti-Semitic ideas. Unfortunately that minority have latched onto the
 pro-Palestine movement.

 The problem you highlight is valid. Yes, Zionists conflate support for
 the Palestinian people with anti-Semitism. The difficulty is that many
 anti-Semites use the word "Zionist" or "Israeli " when they mean Jew. Look
 at Galloway for example. He refused to debate an Israeli, and another time
 he called for Bradford to be an "Israeli free zone". These things weren't
 anything to do with BDS or support for the Palestinian people. They were
 dog wistle anti-Semitism under the guise of anti-Zionism.

 Some of the accusations of anti-Semitism inside the party are
 frivolous. Some aren't. We need to distinguish between them rather than
 dismiss them all.

 I would add that the root of this problem comes down to the influence
 of Stalinism over the Labour left, particularly on anti-imperialist. The
 rot really is apparent now.

 Tim N

 On Tue, 21 Aug 2018, 18:43 A.R. G,  wrote:

> Tim Nelson says, "The Labour right and conservatives are weaponising
> the issue of anti-Semitism, of course. But that doesn't mean it's not an
> issue in the movement. Look at what Beeley said. Or look at George
> Galloways statements for that matter. Or check out any number of left wing
> Facebook pages on Palestine. Read the comments."
>
> I want to make clear that in the comments that follow, I am responding
> *only* to the anti-Semitism issue, as opposed to all the other things
> that Tim describes, which I think are basically reasonable criticisms of
> some corners of the Stalinist left.
>
> Tim didn't cite any specifics about Galloway or Facebook pages. I
> think comments on a Facebook page are an incredibly poor 

Re: [Marxism] Labour can be Jo Cox’s party or Chris Williamson’s – it cannot be both

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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So what distinguishes a "dog whistle" about Jews from a legitimate
criticism of Israel or Zionism? What would Galloway have had to say
instead, in order for it to not be anti-Semitic?

Amith R. Gupta

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:16 PM, Tim Nelson  wrote:

> That's why it's dog whistle racism. He purposely codes his language. He
> didn't call for an end to Israeli products being sold in Bradford, he
> called for the city to be an "Israeli free zone " . He didn't walk out of
> the debate saying he doesn't debate with Israeli government
> representatives. He said "I don't debate Israelis" . You can formally
> interpret those statements as just anti-Zionist, but the dog whistle is
> deafening.
>
> On Tue, 21 Aug 2018, 19:11 A.R. G,  wrote:
>
>> "The difficulty is that many anti-Semites use the word "Zionist" or
>> "Israeli " when they mean Jew. Look at Galloway for example. He refused to
>> debate an Israeli, and another time he called for Bradford to be an
>> "Israeli free zone". "
>>
>> I'm confused. Both of those examples *did* deal with Israelis, not
>> "Jews". One of his comments was about making Bradford free of Israeli
>> products, which is entirely consistent with boycotts of Israel. His
>> decision to walk out on the Israeli student, while not smart, was again
>> aimed at someone who was Israeli. Moveover, the student insisted on
>> identifying himself as a representative of the Israeli government (e.g. "We
>> believe that..." where "we" meant both him and the Israeli state, prompting
>> Galloway to ask what he meant by "we"). Again, not smart, but hardly an
>> attack on his Jewishness.
>>
>> Amith R. Gupta
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Tim Nelson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Amith
>>>
>>> I'm on my bus on my phone, so citing sources isn't easy.
>>>
>>> Yes, Facebook comments are hardly a clear guide. But I guarantee you
>>> that anything but a cursory glance at the left in Britain will show you
>>> that anti-Semitism is real and is a problem. It's far from dominant, but
>>> there is a minority that either consciously or unconsciously subscribe to
>>> anti-Semitic ideas. Unfortunately that minority have latched onto the
>>> pro-Palestine movement.
>>>
>>> The problem you highlight is valid. Yes, Zionists conflate support for
>>> the Palestinian people with anti-Semitism. The difficulty is that many
>>> anti-Semites use the word "Zionist" or "Israeli " when they mean Jew. Look
>>> at Galloway for example. He refused to debate an Israeli, and another time
>>> he called for Bradford to be an "Israeli free zone". These things weren't
>>> anything to do with BDS or support for the Palestinian people. They were
>>> dog wistle anti-Semitism under the guise of anti-Zionism.
>>>
>>> Some of the accusations of anti-Semitism inside the party are frivolous.
>>> Some aren't. We need to distinguish between them rather than dismiss them
>>> all.
>>>
>>> I would add that the root of this problem comes down to the influence of
>>> Stalinism over the Labour left, particularly on anti-imperialist. The rot
>>> really is apparent now.
>>>
>>> Tim N
>>>
>>> On Tue, 21 Aug 2018, 18:43 A.R. G,  wrote:
>>>
 Tim Nelson says, "The Labour right and conservatives are weaponising
 the issue of anti-Semitism, of course. But that doesn't mean it's not an
 issue in the movement. Look at what Beeley said. Or look at George
 Galloways statements for that matter. Or check out any number of left wing
 Facebook pages on Palestine. Read the comments."

 I want to make clear that in the comments that follow, I am responding
 *only* to the anti-Semitism issue, as opposed to all the other things
 that Tim describes, which I think are basically reasonable criticisms of
 some corners of the Stalinist left.

 Tim didn't cite any specifics about Galloway or Facebook pages. I think
 comments on a Facebook page are an incredibly poor measure of anything.
 Putting aside obvious trolls and bot accounts, it's never clear if those
 people are actually Labour Party members or what. Moreover, the risk of
 banning people on a Palestine page for "anti-Semitism" usually turns the
 medicine into something worse than the poison. We've seen here on this
 forum how leftists and liberals have followed the Labour Right in basically
 repeating the smears of Palestine advocacy by labeling broad swaths of it
 as anti-Semitic when it is genuinely aimed at Zionism (i.e. smearing the
 use of the abbreviation "Zio" as anti-Semitic by linking it to David Duke,
 when it is, in fact, just an abbreviation for "Zionist"). In fact, I would
 argue that that is the 

Re: [Marxism] Labour can be Jo Cox’s party or Chris Williamson’s – it cannot be both

[Tim Nelson via Marxism]

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That's why it's dog whistle racism. He purposely codes his language. He
didn't call for an end to Israeli products being sold in Bradford, he
called for the city to be an "Israeli free zone " . He didn't walk out of
the debate saying he doesn't debate with Israeli government
representatives. He said "I don't debate Israelis" . You can formally
interpret those statements as just anti-Zionist, but the dog whistle is
deafening.

On Tue, 21 Aug 2018, 19:11 A.R. G,  wrote:

> "The difficulty is that many anti-Semites use the word "Zionist" or
> "Israeli " when they mean Jew. Look at Galloway for example. He refused to
> debate an Israeli, and another time he called for Bradford to be an
> "Israeli free zone". "
>
> I'm confused. Both of those examples *did* deal with Israelis, not
> "Jews". One of his comments was about making Bradford free of Israeli
> products, which is entirely consistent with boycotts of Israel. His
> decision to walk out on the Israeli student, while not smart, was again
> aimed at someone who was Israeli. Moveover, the student insisted on
> identifying himself as a representative of the Israeli government (e.g. "We
> believe that..." where "we" meant both him and the Israeli state, prompting
> Galloway to ask what he meant by "we"). Again, not smart, but hardly an
> attack on his Jewishness.
>
> Amith R. Gupta
>
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Tim Nelson  wrote:
>
>> Hi Amith
>>
>> I'm on my bus on my phone, so citing sources isn't easy.
>>
>> Yes, Facebook comments are hardly a clear guide. But I guarantee you that
>> anything but a cursory glance at the left in Britain will show you that
>> anti-Semitism is real and is a problem. It's far from dominant, but there
>> is a minority that either consciously or unconsciously subscribe to
>> anti-Semitic ideas. Unfortunately that minority have latched onto the
>> pro-Palestine movement.
>>
>> The problem you highlight is valid. Yes, Zionists conflate support for
>> the Palestinian people with anti-Semitism. The difficulty is that many
>> anti-Semites use the word "Zionist" or "Israeli " when they mean Jew. Look
>> at Galloway for example. He refused to debate an Israeli, and another time
>> he called for Bradford to be an "Israeli free zone". These things weren't
>> anything to do with BDS or support for the Palestinian people. They were
>> dog wistle anti-Semitism under the guise of anti-Zionism.
>>
>> Some of the accusations of anti-Semitism inside the party are frivolous.
>> Some aren't. We need to distinguish between them rather than dismiss them
>> all.
>>
>> I would add that the root of this problem comes down to the influence of
>> Stalinism over the Labour left, particularly on anti-imperialist. The rot
>> really is apparent now.
>>
>> Tim N
>>
>> On Tue, 21 Aug 2018, 18:43 A.R. G,  wrote:
>>
>>> Tim Nelson says, "The Labour right and conservatives are weaponising
>>> the issue of anti-Semitism, of course. But that doesn't mean it's not an
>>> issue in the movement. Look at what Beeley said. Or look at George
>>> Galloways statements for that matter. Or check out any number of left wing
>>> Facebook pages on Palestine. Read the comments."
>>>
>>> I want to make clear that in the comments that follow, I am responding
>>> *only* to the anti-Semitism issue, as opposed to all the other things
>>> that Tim describes, which I think are basically reasonable criticisms of
>>> some corners of the Stalinist left.
>>>
>>> Tim didn't cite any specifics about Galloway or Facebook pages. I think
>>> comments on a Facebook page are an incredibly poor measure of anything.
>>> Putting aside obvious trolls and bot accounts, it's never clear if those
>>> people are actually Labour Party members or what. Moreover, the risk of
>>> banning people on a Palestine page for "anti-Semitism" usually turns the
>>> medicine into something worse than the poison. We've seen here on this
>>> forum how leftists and liberals have followed the Labour Right in basically
>>> repeating the smears of Palestine advocacy by labeling broad swaths of it
>>> as anti-Semitic when it is genuinely aimed at Zionism (i.e. smearing the
>>> use of the abbreviation "Zio" as anti-Semitic by linking it to David Duke,
>>> when it is, in fact, just an abbreviation for "Zionist"). In fact, I would
>>> argue that that is the *dominant* trend among the Left -- not
>>> anti-Semitism, but a feverish reaction to anything even vaguely perceived
>>> to be anti-Semitic. Plus, we should factor in both the sheer exaggeration
>>> of the actual problem and the extent to which it receives disproportionate
>>> focus given the other kinds of discrimination that exist, including in the

Re: [Marxism] Labour can be Jo Cox’s party or Chris Williamson’s – it cannot be both

[A.R. G via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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"The difficulty is that many anti-Semites use the word "Zionist" or
"Israeli " when they mean Jew. Look at Galloway for example. He refused to
debate an Israeli, and another time he called for Bradford to be an
"Israeli free zone". "

I'm confused. Both of those examples *did* deal with Israelis, not "Jews".
One of his comments was about making Bradford free of Israeli products,
which is entirely consistent with boycotts of Israel. His decision to walk
out on the Israeli student, while not smart, was again aimed at someone who
was Israeli. Moveover, the student insisted on identifying himself as a
representative of the Israeli government (e.g. "We believe that..." where
"we" meant both him and the Israeli state, prompting Galloway to ask what
he meant by "we"). Again, not smart, but hardly an attack on his
Jewishness.

Amith R. Gupta

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Tim Nelson  wrote:

> Hi Amith
>
> I'm on my bus on my phone, so citing sources isn't easy.
>
> Yes, Facebook comments are hardly a clear guide. But I guarantee you that
> anything but a cursory glance at the left in Britain will show you that
> anti-Semitism is real and is a problem. It's far from dominant, but there
> is a minority that either consciously or unconsciously subscribe to
> anti-Semitic ideas. Unfortunately that minority have latched onto the
> pro-Palestine movement.
>
> The problem you highlight is valid. Yes, Zionists conflate support for the
> Palestinian people with anti-Semitism. The difficulty is that many
> anti-Semites use the word "Zionist" or "Israeli " when they mean Jew. Look
> at Galloway for example. He refused to debate an Israeli, and another time
> he called for Bradford to be an "Israeli free zone". These things weren't
> anything to do with BDS or support for the Palestinian people. They were
> dog wistle anti-Semitism under the guise of anti-Zionism.
>
> Some of the accusations of anti-Semitism inside the party are frivolous.
> Some aren't. We need to distinguish between them rather than dismiss them
> all.
>
> I would add that the root of this problem comes down to the influence of
> Stalinism over the Labour left, particularly on anti-imperialist. The rot
> really is apparent now.
>
> Tim N
>
> On Tue, 21 Aug 2018, 18:43 A.R. G,  wrote:
>
>> Tim Nelson says, "The Labour right and conservatives are weaponising the
>> issue of anti-Semitism, of course. But that doesn't mean it's not an issue
>> in the movement. Look at what Beeley said. Or look at George Galloways
>> statements for that matter. Or check out any number of left wing Facebook
>> pages on Palestine. Read the comments."
>>
>> I want to make clear that in the comments that follow, I am responding
>> *only* to the anti-Semitism issue, as opposed to all the other things
>> that Tim describes, which I think are basically reasonable criticisms of
>> some corners of the Stalinist left.
>>
>> Tim didn't cite any specifics about Galloway or Facebook pages. I think
>> comments on a Facebook page are an incredibly poor measure of anything.
>> Putting aside obvious trolls and bot accounts, it's never clear if those
>> people are actually Labour Party members or what. Moreover, the risk of
>> banning people on a Palestine page for "anti-Semitism" usually turns the
>> medicine into something worse than the poison. We've seen here on this
>> forum how leftists and liberals have followed the Labour Right in basically
>> repeating the smears of Palestine advocacy by labeling broad swaths of it
>> as anti-Semitic when it is genuinely aimed at Zionism (i.e. smearing the
>> use of the abbreviation "Zio" as anti-Semitic by linking it to David Duke,
>> when it is, in fact, just an abbreviation for "Zionist"). In fact, I would
>> argue that that is the *dominant* trend among the Left -- not
>> anti-Semitism, but a feverish reaction to anything even vaguely perceived
>> to be anti-Semitic. Plus, we should factor in both the sheer exaggeration
>> of the actual problem and the extent to which it receives disproportionate
>> focus given the other kinds of discrimination that exist, including in the
>> British Left. Finkelstein did a good, though somewhat verbose, job of
>> discussing it recently: https://mondoweiss.net/2018/
>> 08/chimera-british-semitism/
>>
>> The Oz Katerji article, not to mention some of Oz' statements about
>> Corbyn, are emblematic. For example, OK recently argued on Twitter,
>> re-blogging a right-wing smear campaign, that Corbyn's 2012 comments about
>> an alleged Israeli role in a terrorist attack in Egypt during the Arab
>> Spring was a sign of anti-Semitism. For OK, the mere suggestion that Israel
>> might have had a role in 

Re: [Marxism] Labour can be Jo Cox’s party or Chris Williamson’s – it cannot be both

[Tim Nelson via Marxism]

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Hi Amith

I'm on my bus on my phone, so citing sources isn't easy.

Yes, Facebook comments are hardly a clear guide. But I guarantee you that
anything but a cursory glance at the left in Britain will show you that
anti-Semitism is real and is a problem. It's far from dominant, but there
is a minority that either consciously or unconsciously subscribe to
anti-Semitic ideas. Unfortunately that minority have latched onto the
pro-Palestine movement.

The problem you highlight is valid. Yes, Zionists conflate support for the
Palestinian people with anti-Semitism. The difficulty is that many
anti-Semites use the word "Zionist" or "Israeli " when they mean Jew. Look
at Galloway for example. He refused to debate an Israeli, and another time
he called for Bradford to be an "Israeli free zone". These things weren't
anything to do with BDS or support for the Palestinian people. They were
dog wistle anti-Semitism under the guise of anti-Zionism.

Some of the accusations of anti-Semitism inside the party are frivolous.
Some aren't. We need to distinguish between them rather than dismiss them
all.

I would add that the root of this problem comes down to the influence of
Stalinism over the Labour left, particularly on anti-imperialist. The rot
really is apparent now.

Tim N

On Tue, 21 Aug 2018, 18:43 A.R. G,  wrote:

> Tim Nelson says, "The Labour right and conservatives are weaponising the
> issue of anti-Semitism, of course. But that doesn't mean it's not an issue
> in the movement. Look at what Beeley said. Or look at George Galloways
> statements for that matter. Or check out any number of left wing Facebook
> pages on Palestine. Read the comments."
>
> I want to make clear that in the comments that follow, I am responding
> *only* to the anti-Semitism issue, as opposed to all the other things
> that Tim describes, which I think are basically reasonable criticisms of
> some corners of the Stalinist left.
>
> Tim didn't cite any specifics about Galloway or Facebook pages. I think
> comments on a Facebook page are an incredibly poor measure of anything.
> Putting aside obvious trolls and bot accounts, it's never clear if those
> people are actually Labour Party members or what. Moreover, the risk of
> banning people on a Palestine page for "anti-Semitism" usually turns the
> medicine into something worse than the poison. We've seen here on this
> forum how leftists and liberals have followed the Labour Right in basically
> repeating the smears of Palestine advocacy by labeling broad swaths of it
> as anti-Semitic when it is genuinely aimed at Zionism (i.e. smearing the
> use of the abbreviation "Zio" as anti-Semitic by linking it to David Duke,
> when it is, in fact, just an abbreviation for "Zionist"). In fact, I would
> argue that that is the *dominant* trend among the Left -- not
> anti-Semitism, but a feverish reaction to anything even vaguely perceived
> to be anti-Semitic. Plus, we should factor in both the sheer exaggeration
> of the actual problem and the extent to which it receives disproportionate
> focus given the other kinds of discrimination that exist, including in the
> British Left. Finkelstein did a good, though somewhat verbose, job of
> discussing it recently:
> https://mondoweiss.net/2018/08/chimera-british-semitism/
>
> The Oz Katerji article, not to mention some of Oz' statements about
> Corbyn, are emblematic. For example, OK recently argued on Twitter,
> re-blogging a right-wing smear campaign, that Corbyn's 2012 comments about
> an alleged Israeli role in a terrorist attack in Egypt during the Arab
> Spring was a sign of anti-Semitism. For OK, the mere suggestion that Israel
> might have had a role in events that were happening in a neighboring
> nation-state, let alone one in which Israel's long-standing "security
> partner" was threatened with instability, was unacceptable conspiracism and
> amounted to some kind of attack on the Israeli settler-colony's Jewish
> identity. It is also shamefully ignorant given that the alleged conspiracy
> theory has actually taken place
> , though not in 2012.
>
> As for Galloway, I don't agree. Galloway often takes purposely extremist
> stances. But they are always aimed at Israel and Zionism -- not the Jewish
> community. Some of the accusations are wild. But a wild accusation against
> a government doesn't somehow translate into an attack on its ethnic or
> racial identity. The argument that his critics make are that it is somehow
> reminiscent of anti-Semitism because anti-Semites exaggerate and fantasize
> about Jews being disproportionately powerful, but of course, *any* criticism
> of *any* 

Re: [Marxism] Labour can be Jo Cox’s party or Chris Williamson’s – it cannot be both

[Tim Nelson via Marxism]

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He doesn't have to explicitly endorse her views in their entirety. He just
uncritically praised her. If he was unaware of her Assadism or her
anti-Semitism then I look forward to his statement clarifying his
opposition to those things. I won't hold my breath though.

There's a problem here. The Stalinist influenced left in Britain has gone
full-tin foil over Syria. Their worst tendencies - authoritarianism,
Islamophobia and Anti-Semitism are bubbling up. Unfortunately, such people
are in very influential roles in the Labour movement. This whole thing is
becoming quite upsetting.

The Labour right and conservatives are weaponising the issue of
anti-Semitism, of course. But that doesn't mean it's not an issue in the
movement. Look at what Beeley said. Or look at George Galloways statements
for that matter. Or check out any number of left wing Facebook pages on
Palestine. Read the comments.

Finally. I consider myself quite a tolerant chap, but seeing a supposed
member of the British working class movement slandering a Labour MP who was
stabbed to death by a fascist makes me apoplectic. There's no place in our
movement for people like that, and anyone who publicly endorses her either
needs to instantly retract, or be lumped in with her.

Tim N

On Tue, 21 Aug 2018, 16:48 A.R. G via Marxism, 
wrote:

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>
> Obviously Beeley is not right in the head. Her statements about Assad are
> vile and her statements about "Zionists" are conspiratorial and sound like
> they are worded purposely to inflame.
>
> All that being said, it is very disturbing to see Oz Katerji jumping on the
> Labour "Anti-Semitism" scandal. Chris Williamson never endorsed Beeley's
> views in their entirety, although he has endorsed some of the ones that
> are, well, bad, namely about Syria. There's no reason to think he endorsed
> any of her rhetoric about Jews/Israel. I'd also note that OK cites an
> article in a right-wing Israeli paper that appears to think virtually any
> condemnation of Israel is anti-Jewish, putting aside the fact that some of
> it -- though not all -- sounds inflammatory.
>
> Amith R. Gupta
>
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 8:34 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
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> >
> > https://www.newstatesman.com/world/middle-east/2018/08/labou
> > r-can-be-jo-cox-s-party-or-chris-williamson-s-it-cannot-be-both
> > _
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[Marxism] 6 questions with Gerald Horne part 2

[Andrew Stewart via Marxism]

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http://washingtonbabylon.com/six-questions-dr-gerald-horne-p2/

Best regards,
Andrew Stewart 
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[Marxism] Concerning Ocasio-Cortez and Palestine – Open Letter – Medium

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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DSA'ers issue open letter on A. O-C and Palestine.

https://medium.com/@sdsanowar/concerning-ocasio-cortez-and-palestine-3c20887c64b4
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[Marxism] Labour can be Jo Cox’s party or Chris Williamson’s – it cannot be both

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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https://www.newstatesman.com/world/middle-east/2018/08/labour-can-be-jo-cox-s-party-or-chris-williamson-s-it-cannot-be-both
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[Marxism] A Castle Built on Sand? Ukrainian Literature and Crimea

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/a-castle-built-on-sand-ukrainian-literature-and-crimea/
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[Marxism] US inmates stage nationwide prison labor strike over 'modern slavery' | US news | The Guardian

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/20/prison-labor-protest-america-jailhouse-lawyers-speak
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[Marxism] University of North Carolina Students Topple Confederate Monument | HuffPost

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/silent-sam-unc-confederate-statue_us_5b7b86a2e4b0a5b1febe4bc3
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[Marxism] [UCE] What Awaits Turkey? A Call for Consolidation against the Geist of Wickedness | Lefteast

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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http://www.criticatac.ro/lefteast/what-awaits-turkey-a-call-for-consolidation/
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[Marxism] bellingcat - Environmental Activists Halt Construction at Armenian Gold Mine - bellingcat

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of-world/2018/08/20/environmental-activists-halt-construction-armenian-gold-mine/
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[Marxism] China’s ‘Private Army’ prowls the ‘New Silk Road’

[RKOB via Marxism]

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Blackwater, Wagner, ... the Chinese have it too!
http://www.atimes.com/article/chinas-private-army-prowls-the-new-silk-road/

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