Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Convert to the drachma–piece of cake. Right… | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Well yes, in fact, the consolidation of all banks into one means you can rip out much of the coding. Same for every other sector of the economy which would be rationalized: the amount of data and calculations of same required is drastically reduced when you don't have millions of individual firms recalculating every day their prices, their stocks (both financial and real), etc. Greece's solidarity4all network is showing in practice how only the most rudimentary calculations are needed to keep track of the flow of thousands of volunteer hours and millions of euros worth of donated goods. A good set of input-output tables run through computers not much more powerful than the one each of us is typing on would handle most of the computing chores required for Greek society as a whole. And even the work needed to do calculations of foreign trade would be dramatically reduced once the state has a monopoly on control of such trade. (Plus think of the concentration of import/export and shipping firms globally in recent decades.) On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 7/14/15 1:51 PM, Andrew Pollack wrote: . I've spent 15 years working with computer systems at a hospital, in which a couple dozen systems, some compatible with each other, some not, capture all of the patient's demographic, financial and clinical information. 50% of that data would be unnecessary in a single-payer system, 95% of it in a socialized healthcare sector. The point being that the availability of complex computer systems means they fill a void that probably didn't need to be created in the first place. Got it. Greece has to combine all its banks into a single bank to start off. That will make the job of writing 60 billion lines of code a lot easier, especially given Greece's enormous pool of IT specialists. (Wake me when this Trotskyist fantasy nightmare is over.) _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Convert to the drachma–piece of cake. Right… | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 7/14/15 2:19 PM, Andrew Pollack wrote: Well yes, in fact, the consolidation of all banks into one means you can rip out much of the coding. Same for every other sector of the economy which would be rationalized: the amount of data and calculations of same required is drastically reduced when you don't have millions of individual firms recalculating every day their prices, their stocks (both financial and real), etc. This baloney might impress someone who has never written a program but it doesn't impress me. A typical large scale project in a major corporation takes anywhere from three to five years to complete, and that's without consolidating a bunch of them into a single state owned firm, which is what you are obviously talking about. It is one thing to make such a statement on a Marxism list off the top of your head and it is another to create the infrastructure, carry out the systems analysis, and then finally code and test a complex system. The USA had enormous money and manpower and look at what a fiasco Obamacare was before it was debugged. Is it the idea that a socialist Grexit will make protection exceptions and program loops obsolete? Amazing. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Convert to the drachma–piece of cake. Right… | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * You've just proven my point. 1. I guarantee you that 95% of the Goldman Sachs overhaul you were involved in was socially unnecessary. 2. Obamacare's computing snafus are 100% down to creating a Rube Goldberg-machine system of competing insurers who need data on millions of independent patients, providers and suppliers (and the latter as a result needing to find data on the former). The exchanges which took so much work and re-work to get up and running were only created for the benefit of insurance companies. I invite any of the Brits on list to speak to what kind of mammoth computer systems were needed to set up your socialized medicine system (that's irony, folks). On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 7/14/15 2:19 PM, Andrew Pollack wrote: Well yes, in fact, the consolidation of all banks into one means you can rip out much of the coding. Same for every other sector of the economy which would be rationalized: the amount of data and calculations of same required is drastically reduced when you don't have millions of individual firms recalculating every day their prices, their stocks (both financial and real), etc. This baloney might impress someone who has never written a program but it doesn't impress me. A typical large scale project in a major corporation takes anywhere from three to five years to complete, and that's without consolidating a bunch of them into a single state owned firm, which is what you are obviously talking about. It is one thing to make such a statement on a Marxism list off the top of your head and it is another to create the infrastructure, carry out the systems analysis, and then finally code and test a complex system. The USA had enormous money and manpower and look at what a fiasco Obamacare was before it was debugged. Is it the idea that a socialist Grexit will make protection exceptions and program loops obsolete? Amazing. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Convert to the drachma–piece of cake. Right… | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I dealt with that in my paper a couple decades ago but briefly: in the first stage of socialism you need computers to track prices of good, volumes of sales, etc. ALL OF WHICH REQUIRES NO MORE SOPHISTICATION THAN THE SYSTEM CURRENTLY USED BY WALMART. I wonder how many millions of lines of code Walmart has. Anyone who thinks this is simple is deluding themselves. -dx _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Convert to the drachma–piece of cake. Right… | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * What's your point, Joe? You seem to have missed mine (and Dave x didn't even make an effort to get it). My point is that the overwhelming majority of code written today is a complete waste, because it's written for an economy of millions of fragmented economic actors. I cite Walmart to show that however many millions of lines of code they would need to rewrite in a y2k or currency changeover situation, those millions are qualitatively fewer than would need to be rewritten for a changeover involving thousands of isolated retailers. Institutions change computer systems every so often, and they have to do tremendous amounts of recoding and uploading and translating data and code. IT DOESN'T BANKRUPT THEM, anymore than currency changes do or y2k did. Read the pdf Louis sent (including especially the part about organizational changes impacting coding). And Louis et al., stop hiding your cowardice in the face of bourgeois politicians behind a surface understanding of the connection between the social and technological. On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Joseph Catron via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:09 PM, dave x via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: I dealt with that in my paper a couple decades ago but briefly: in the first stage of socialism you need computers to track prices of good, volumes of sales, etc. ALL OF WHICH REQUIRES NO MORE SOPHISTICATION THAN THE SYSTEM CURRENTLY USED BY WALMART. I wonder how many millions of lines of code Walmart has. Anyone who thinks this is simple is deluding themselves. I think anyone who's ever examined Walmart's supply chain and distribution channel snickered a little bit at that. It's incredibly sophisticated, and has taken decades of continuous refinement. Everyone knows that Walmart's revenues are roughly twice Greece's GDP, yes? -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Convert to the drachma–piece of cake. Right… | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:09 PM, dave x via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: I dealt with that in my paper a couple decades ago but briefly: in the first stage of socialism you need computers to track prices of good, volumes of sales, etc. ALL OF WHICH REQUIRES NO MORE SOPHISTICATION THAN THE SYSTEM CURRENTLY USED BY WALMART. I wonder how many millions of lines of code Walmart has. Anyone who thinks this is simple is deluding themselves. I think anyone who's ever examined Walmart's supply chain and distribution channel snickered a little bit at that. It's incredibly sophisticated, and has taken decades of continuous refinement. Everyone knows that Walmart's revenues are roughly twice Greece's GDP, yes? -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Convert to the drachma–piece of cake. Right… | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * exactly. But its scope means it has superceded older, smaller, fragmented equivalents -- as Engels would say, it has been objectively socialized, and is there just waiting to be taken over. (Which is why I'm so glad activists are working in the supply chain.) On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 7:37 PM, Joseph Catron jncat...@gmail.com wrote: Only that a system comparable to Walmart's can't possibly come together overnight, or cheaply for that matter. It's grown alongside the chain itself since 1962, and while I don't know exactly how to measure its costs, or whether it's even possible to separate them from other expenses, I'm aware they've been tremendous. On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 7:10 PM, Andrew Pollack acpolla...@gmail.com wrote: What's your point, Joe? -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Convert to the drachma–piece of cake. Right… | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Only that a system comparable to Walmart's can't possibly come together overnight, or cheaply for that matter. It's grown alongside the chain itself since 1962, and while I don't know exactly how to measure its costs, or whether it's even possible to separate them from other expenses, I'm aware they've been tremendous. On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 7:10 PM, Andrew Pollack acpolla...@gmail.com wrote: What's your point, Joe? -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Convert to the drachma–piece of cake. Right… | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 7/14/15 2:33 PM, Andrew Pollack wrote: 1. I guarantee you that 95% of the Goldman Sachs overhaul you were involved in was socially unnecessary. Ah, I see. As part of the Grexit, we will eliminate the Greek stock market. Brilliant. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Convert to the drachma–piece of cake. Right… | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Of course we will (eliminate the stock market)! Why the fuck would you want a stock market under socialism? I dealt with that in my paper a couple decades ago but briefly: in the first stage of socialism you need computers to track prices of good, volumes of sales, etc. ALL OF WHICH REQUIRES NO MORE SOPHISTICATION THAN THE SYSTEM CURRENTLY USED BY WALMART. What you DON'T need are supercomputers executing microsecond-fast stock price fluctuations. On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 7/14/15 2:33 PM, Andrew Pollack wrote: 1. I guarantee you that 95% of the Goldman Sachs overhaul you were involved in was socially unnecessary. Ah, I see. As part of the Grexit, we will eliminate the Greek stock market. Brilliant. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Convert to the drachma–piece of cake. Right… | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 7/14/15 2:46 PM, Andrew Pollack wrote: Of course we will (eliminate the stock market)! Why the fuck would you want a stock market under socialism? What this reveals is the frustration of so many veterans on the left that the Greeks did not live up to their expectations. I thought this summed it up nicely: It is revealing of the political landscape in Europe - indeed, the world - that everyone's dreams of socialism seemed to rest on the shoulders of the young Prime Minister of a small country. There seemed to be a fervent, irrational, almost evangelical belief that a tiny country, drowning in debt, gasping for liquidity, would somehow (and that somehow is never specified) defeat global capitalism, armed only with sticks and rocks. https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/164 _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: Convert to the drachma–piece of cake. Right… | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * http://louisproyect.org/2015/07/14/convert-to-the-drachma-piece-of-cake-right/ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Convert to the drachma–piece of cake. Right… | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * re this: My good friend Liza Featherstone complained on Facebook this morning: 'Seriously every dude is a Greece expert now. How’d you all get so smart so fast?' Boy, was she ever right. The implication is that Featherstone thinks she is smart and knowledgeable enough to know that we're all wrong, even though admitting that she herself knows nothing about the situation. Or perhaps it's that she's smart enough to know that we shouldn't bother to care and to learn, that what matters is striking a smarmy rhetorical tone. On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * http://louisproyect.org/2015/07/14/convert-to-the-drachma-piece-of-cake-right/ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
