Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] Convert to the Drachma – Piece of Cake. Right… | naked capitalism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * sorry, I hit Send accidentally; here's the finished paragraph from the middle of my post: The answer is simple: IT is not used to rationalize, simplify, and make more efficient the economy. It's designed to sell more goods, both consumer and IT business systems. (It IS used to speed up the supply chain, but that affects only distribution, not production; which however, as I explained re Walmart, is nothing to sneeze at re potential future rationalization and therefore minimization of needed computer code in the economy-wide sphere of distribution.) On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 9:24 AM, Andrew Pollack acpolla...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, the upcoming battles are key, and it's no mystery where they will come. For instance see quote from linked article below. But Louis's logic STILL argues against a revolution anywhere, anytime. As the country with the most, and most complex, IT systems, a socialist revolution in the US would by his logic be forever impossible. This brings us to the productivity paradox, i.e. the decades-old conundrum of why computerization hasn't transformed the economy the way railroads and then auto did. The answer is simple: IT is not used to rationalize, simplify, and make more efficient the economy. It's designed to sell more goods, both consumer and IT business systems. (It That's why, for instance, nurse unions point out that successively more complex healthcare IT systems - which DO capture more and more patient data - DON'T mean higher quality or safety in healthcare (whereas higher nurse staffing WOULD). Yet hospitals (including my own) are always competing with each other to get the newest, biggest systems - and when the conversion is made it requires countless (wasted) person-hours. One could read on a banner deployed before the Parliament: “No to privatizations, let us save the ports, DEI (national electricity company), the hospitals”. http://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article4130 On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 8:41 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 7/16/15 8:20 AM, Marv Gandall via Marxism wrote: Is the suggestion here that all of the peoples in the eurozone are trapped in it because the technical problems of converting to a sovereign currency are intractable, or is there something special about the technological structure of Greek capitalism? Absolutely not. But all this talk about Tsipras should have come up with a plan B while he was in these intense negotiations with the eurozone bigs is nuts. As I have repeatedly tried to explain, converting to a new currency requires a full project life-cycle implementation just as it did moving from a drachma to the euro. I have been involved with 5 such massive projects during my career so I can guarantee you that it would take Greece or any other euro-based nations a full 3 years to effect a change. As Doug pointed out, such a declared intention would have consequences of capital drain. In any case, the challenge is more political than technical at this point. We have a left developing in Greece today out of the disaffected Syriza members, Antarsya and the KKE (not that these people are capable of working in a united front). As I urged a FB friend yesterday, the focus should be on what's next and not on what just happened. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] Convert to the Drachma – Piece of Cake. Right… | naked capitalism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Yes, the upcoming battles are key, and it's no mystery where they will come. For instance see quote from linked article below. But Louis's logic STILL argues against a revolution anywhere, anytime. As the country with the most, and most complex, IT systems, a socialist revolution in the US would by his logic be forever impossible. This brings us to the productivity paradox, i.e. the decades-old conundrum of why computerization hasn't transformed the economy the way railroads and then auto did. The answer is simple: IT is not used to rationalize, simplify, and make more efficient the economy. It's designed to sell more goods, both consumer and IT business systems. (It That's why, for instance, nurse unions point out that successively more complex healthcare IT systems - which DO capture more and more patient data - DON'T mean higher quality or safety in healthcare (whereas higher nurse staffing WOULD). Yet hospitals (including my own) are always competing with each other to get the newest, biggest systems - and when the conversion is made it requires countless (wasted) person-hours. One could read on a banner deployed before the Parliament: “No to privatizations, let us save the ports, DEI (national electricity company), the hospitals”. http://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article4130 On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 8:41 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 7/16/15 8:20 AM, Marv Gandall via Marxism wrote: Is the suggestion here that all of the peoples in the eurozone are trapped in it because the technical problems of converting to a sovereign currency are intractable, or is there something special about the technological structure of Greek capitalism? Absolutely not. But all this talk about Tsipras should have come up with a plan B while he was in these intense negotiations with the eurozone bigs is nuts. As I have repeatedly tried to explain, converting to a new currency requires a full project life-cycle implementation just as it did moving from a drachma to the euro. I have been involved with 5 such massive projects during my career so I can guarantee you that it would take Greece or any other euro-based nations a full 3 years to effect a change. As Doug pointed out, such a declared intention would have consequences of capital drain. In any case, the challenge is more political than technical at this point. We have a left developing in Greece today out of the disaffected Syriza members, Antarsya and the KKE (not that these people are capable of working in a united front). As I urged a FB friend yesterday, the focus should be on what's next and not on what just happened. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] Convert to the Drachma – Piece of Cake. Right… | naked capitalism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 7/16/15 9:24 AM, Andrew Pollack wrote: But Louis's logic STILL argues against a revolution anywhere, anytime. As the country with the most, and most complex, IT systems, a socialist revolution in the US would by his logic be forever impossible. Not really. That being said, Andrew's tendency to superimpose his hopes for socialism on Greece is a mistake. Syriza got elected because it reflected the mood of the voters and even now there is little evidence of a revolutionary situation. Demanding that pensions not be cut is not the same thing as what Lenin wrote about in State and Revolution. Keep in mind that dual power often constitutes the basis for a revolutionary transformation such as workers taking over factories in Catalonia in 1938. I understand that Marxists would like to think that something like that is happening in Greece but I prefer to base my hopes on reality rather than fantasy. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] Convert to the Drachma – Piece of Cake. Right… | naked capitalism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 7/16/15 8:20 AM, Marv Gandall via Marxism wrote: Is the suggestion here that all of the peoples in the eurozone are trapped in it because the technical problems of converting to a sovereign currency are intractable, or is there something special about the technological structure of Greek capitalism? Absolutely not. But all this talk about Tsipras should have come up with a plan B while he was in these intense negotiations with the eurozone bigs is nuts. As I have repeatedly tried to explain, converting to a new currency requires a full project life-cycle implementation just as it did moving from a drachma to the euro. I have been involved with 5 such massive projects during my career so I can guarantee you that it would take Greece or any other euro-based nations a full 3 years to effect a change. As Doug pointed out, such a declared intention would have consequences of capital drain. In any case, the challenge is more political than technical at this point. We have a left developing in Greece today out of the disaffected Syriza members, Antarsya and the KKE (not that these people are capable of working in a united front). As I urged a FB friend yesterday, the focus should be on what's next and not on what just happened. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] Convert to the Drachma – Piece of Cake. Right… | naked capitalism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 07/16/2015 09:24 AM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism wrote: the decades-old conundrum of why computerization hasn't transformed the economy the way railroads and then auto did. I can't claim authority for the whole US economy, but in the railroad industry where I worked, computers most definitely increased productivity by eliminating thousands of mainly clerical jobs. Now not just clerical, but with crews and mechanical forces, with sensors and gps maxed out on the power.(locomotives) Certainly likely true with the rest of transportation and distribution, trucks, Walmart, Amazon etc. Bricks and mortar are on life support. Jon Flanders _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] Convert to the Drachma – Piece of Cake. Right… | naked capitalism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Jul 16, 2015, at 8:41 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 7/16/15 8:20 AM, Marv Gandall via Marxism wrote: Is the suggestion here that all of the peoples in the eurozone are trapped in it because the technical problems of converting to a sovereign currency are intractable, or is there something special about the technological structure of Greek capitalism? Absolutely not. But all this talk about Tsipras should have come up with a plan B while he was in these intense negotiations with the eurozone bigs is nuts. As I have repeatedly tried to explain, converting to a new currency requires a full project life-cycle implementation just as it did moving from a drachma to the euro. I have been involved with 5 such massive projects during my career so I can guarantee you that it would take Greece or any other euro-based nations a full 3 years to effect a change. As Doug pointed out, such a declared intention would have consequences of capital drain. In any case, the challenge is more political than technical at this point. Well, yes. As, I noted two days ago on this thread: “The problem, Louis, as is so often the case, is less “technical” than it is political.” No one disputes that conversion from a stronger currency to a weaker one is economically wrenching, and inevitably results in capital flight. It has to be carefully managed by the state. Which is why it is preeminently a political rather than a technical issue. Your position has hitherto been that conversion to a new currency is so impossibly daunting that it should be ruled out, no matter how wretched the status quo - certainly in the case of Greece. You neglect to answer whether and why this rule would also be applicable to larger and more complex economies. But your fears about a Grexit being worse than the status quo seem greatly exaggerated, especially if an orderly Grexit can be arranged, which is in where the interests of the Greek people and the NATO powers converge for different reasons. That option has been on the table since Syriza took power, but its leadership, like yourself, has feared it as too radical a step and consequently did nothing to prepare the people and the state administration for that possibility. In fact, it actively discouraged speculation about a Grexit for fear of further antagonizing the troika. As for capital flight, it can take wings anytime where there is a perception that assets may be threatened by a left wing leadership susceptible to pressures from its restless base. Don’t take power if you don’t want to frighten away foreign and domestic capital. It is no more complicated than that. We know that even though the Syriza government bent over backwards to assure its creditors and depositors of its unshakeable commitment to the euro, euros continued to drain out of the country. In these circumstances, the Tsipras leadership was confronted with the stark choice of imposing more stringent capital controls, nationalizing the insolvent Greek banks, issuing a parallel currency, repudiating the debt, and inviting the US and Europe to negotiate in their own economic and geopolitical interests on that basis, or…abjectly accepting further cuts to the labour and pension rights of its followers, a further squeeze on their incomes, and the de-nationalization of important public assets. You’d have a difficult time persuading me it made the right choice because the difficulties of a “full project life cycle implementation” somehow trumped all these other considerations. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] Convert to the Drachma – Piece of Cake. Right… | naked capitalism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Proyect wrote: We have a left developing in Greece today out of the disaffected Syriza members, Antarsya and the KKE (not that these people are capable of working in a united front). As I urged a FB friend yesterday, the focus should be on what's next and not on what just happened. ** I'm glad that you finally seem to realize that the future of the Greek left lies in a recomposition of forces, and not with Syriza as a party. But is politically impossible to forget about the betrayal that has just taken place and simply move on. The Tsipras faction of Syriza (which is probably still a majority) is hardly about to roll over and play dead. They will argue that they have not betrayed and that therefore no recomposition of the left is necessary. The KKE leadership will continue to defend its sectarian-abstentionist policies. And many more on the left will be bewildered and confused by what has taken place, not knowing what the future holds or where to turn. Recomposition demands political clarification, which in turn demands a struggle of ideas and political tendencies. I know that branding people betrayers, and the whole notion of a right-left struggle within the left is your idea of a Spartacist nightmare, and is anathema to every bone in your anti-sectarian body. But it is unavoidable at this juncture. Lenin didn't skip over the struggle against Kautsky, and move effortlessly on to the founding of the Third International, letting bygones be bygones. He would not have accepted the excuse that voting for war credits in the Reichstag simply reflected the wishes of the German people (which it did at the time, btw, to a much greater extent than voting for austerity now reflects the wishes of the majority of the Greek people). I know we aren't in the same situation here, and that the issue is a Grexit, not war and revolution, so please do not invoke that straw man. But an event of great consequence is now transpiring, and the left, in Greece or Europe, can't move forward without digesting its implications. Jim Creegan On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 8:41 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 7/16/15 8:20 AM, Marv Gandall via Marxism wrote: Is the suggestion here that all of the peoples in the eurozone are trapped in it because the technical problems of converting to a sovereign currency are intractable, or is there something special about the technological structure of Greek capitalism? Absolutely not. But all this talk about Tsipras should have come up with a plan B while he was in these intense negotiations with the eurozone bigs is nuts. As I have repeatedly tried to explain, converting to a new currency requires a full project life-cycle implementation just as it did moving from a drachma to the euro. I have been involved with 5 such massive projects during my career so I can guarantee you that it would take Greece or any other euro-based nations a full 3 years to effect a change. As Doug pointed out, such a declared intention would have consequences of capital drain. In any case, the challenge is more political than technical at this point. We have a left developing in Greece today out of the disaffected Syriza members, Antarsya and the KKE (not that these people are capable of working in a united front). As I urged a FB friend yesterday, the focus should be on what's next and not on what just happened. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/sectarian61%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] Convert to the Drachma – Piece of Cake. Right… | naked capitalism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Mark Lause wrote: Jim urges us to act appropriately *to* this juncture, as though we were historical materialists. But the next lines urge us to follow the example of Lenin's struggle against Kautsky and voting against war credits in the Reichstag. For historical materialists, these are different junctures altogether, no? ** I acknowledge the differences in the respective junctures in the sentence following the text of mine that you select. I might also add to the differences that, unlike the German Social Democracy, Syriza is not, and never claimed to be, a working-class socialist party, and never proclaimed its intention to answer the class enemy with a general strike, as the SPD had pledged to do in the event of war. But the juncture is not *altogether *different. Tsipras it has betrayed every election pledge his party ever made at the cost of untold damage and agony to his people, and is, like New Democracy and Pasok, employing TINA arguments to justify his actions. Any socialist (or even committed Keynesian) must categorically repudiate all TINA arguments A betrayal is a betrayal, in 2015 as it was in 1914, and there must be a political sorting out and assigning of blame before any political realignment can take place. Jim Reply to all Forward On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 11:56 AM, Mark Lause markala...@gmail.com wrote: Jim Creegan writes, I know that branding people betrayers, and the whole notion of a right-left struggle within the left is your idea of a Spartacist nightmare, and is anathema to every bone in your 'anti-sectarian' body. But it is unavoidable at this juncture. Lenin didn't skip over the struggle against Kautsky, and move effortlessly on to the founding of the Third International, letting bygones be bygones. He would not have accepted the excuse that voting for war credits in the Reichstag simply reflected the wishes of the German people (which it did at the time, btw, to a much greater extent than voting for austerity now reflects the wishes of the majority of the Greek people). Jim urges us to act appropriately to this juncture, as though we were historical materialists. But the next lines urge us to follow the example of Lenin's struggle against Kautsky and voting against war credits in the Reichstag. For historical materialists, these are different junctures altogether, no? ML _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] Convert to the Drachma – Piece of Cake. Right… | naked capitalism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Jim Creegan writes, I know that branding people betrayers, and the whole notion of a right-left struggle within the left is your idea of a Spartacist nightmare, and is anathema to every bone in your 'anti-sectarian' body. But it is unavoidable at this juncture. Lenin didn't skip over the struggle against Kautsky, and move effortlessly on to the founding of the Third International, letting bygones be bygones. He would not have accepted the excuse that voting for war credits in the Reichstag simply reflected the wishes of the German people (which it did at the time, btw, to a much greater extent than voting for austerity now reflects the wishes of the majority of the Greek people). Jim urges us to act appropriately to this juncture, as though we were historical materialists. But the next lines urge us to follow the example of Lenin's struggle against Kautsky and voting against war credits in the Reichstag. For historical materialists, these are different junctures altogether, no? ML _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] Convert to the Drachma – Piece of Cake. Right… | naked capitalism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * (Schauble represents that wing of the European bourgeoisie - still a minority, but growing - which no longer wants to throw “good money after bad”. It wants to force Greece out of the eurozone, providing it with a one time injection of seed money rather than continued bailouts costing hundreds of billions of euros which will never be fully recovered.) Germany’s Wolfgang Schäuble puts Grexit back on the agenda By Stefan Wegstyl Financial Times July 16 2015 Days after Greece appeared to escape crashing out of the euro, hawkish German finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble has put Grexit back on the political agenda, raising tensions in Berlin and across the EU. Speaking before a key Bundestag vote on Friday, Mr Schäuble said voluntary departure from the eurozone “could perhaps be a better way” for Greece than a proposed €86bn bailout package, which was painfully assembled at a marathon eurozone summit in Brussels over the weekend. Despite his misgivings, the 72-year-old German minister said he would still personally put the package to parliament. His hollow-sounding pledge was eerily familiar to one from Athens this week, where Greek premier Alexis Tsipras presented the same plan to Greece’s parliament while admitting he did not believe in it. Mr Schäuble’s manoeuvre makes clear he is leaving open a Grexit option, even as he is formally backing the latest rescue plan to keep Greece in the eurozone. It is uncertain how much leeway he has been given by chancellor Angela Merkel to advance a historic rupture of the eurozone that he believes would ultimately strengthen both Greece and the single currency. Ms Merkel, who celebrates her 61st birthday on Friday, has long given more weight than Mr Schäuble to the geopolitical costs of Grexit but has also said that a deal to prevent it cannot come “at any price”. Her approach has hardened since June 26 when Mr Tsipras infuriated Greece’s international creditors by calling for a national referendum on their latest bailout offer. It later emerged Mr Tsipras had informed the chancellor and French president François Hollande of his plans in a telephone call. But he neglected to say he would campaign against the deal. Ms Merkel only learnt the truth after Mr Tsipras announced his intentions on television. The chancellor’s complaints about the loss of trust in Athens have since multiplied. Mr Schäuble said in a radio interview there was widespread concern — including at the International Monetary Fund — that Greece needed a debt cut for the rescue to work. But, he noted, a “debt cut is incompatible with membership of the currency union”. Even if he favours a Grexit, Mr Schäuble may have to take a roundabout route to get there. He is wary of being seen to push Athens out the door for fear of breaking Germany’s decades-long commitment to European unity. Such a move would also risk casting Ms Merkel as Europe’s bully — a claim many are already making after a summit in which she forced the capitulation of Greece’s defiant leftwing prime minister. Berlin has already signalled that should Grexit come, Germany would generously support Athens, including with a debt cut. Some EU officials believe Mr Schäuble’s repeated insistence that the IMF, which has partnered the EU in previous rescues, be included in a new bailout may be intended to engineer an eventual Grexit. The IMF has suggested it might not join a new Greek programme once its current rescue expires in March without heavy restructuring of existing eurozone loans. One EU official said Mr Schäuble could use this as “an excuse”. Ms Merkel in the meantime seems certain to win the Bundestag vote on Friday on the proposed bailout. But about 60 MPs from her CDU/CSU bloc could rebel in protest against lending Athens even a cent more. The fact that Mr Schäuble will on Friday recommend the plan could win over some sceptics, thereby reducing Ms Merkel’s embarrassment. The vote authorises only the start of negotiations, meaning Mr Schäuble will have time to manoeuvre before a second vote on the package itself, once negotiations are concluded. Eckhardt Rehberg, the CDU’s budget spokesman, said: “The debate over a temporary Grexit has been important.” But social democrats, also part of the coalition, are furious that Mr Schäuble harps on about Grexit and are urging him to stick to the script. Many suspect the finance minister is playing up Grexit partly to embarrass the leader of their SPD party, Sigmar Gabriel. Mr Gabriel had agreed with Ms Merkel and Mr Schäuble that the Grexit option should be aired at the weekend summit as a way to put pressure on Athens.
Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] Convert to the Drachma – Piece of Cake. Right… | naked capitalism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 6:41 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: . . . But all this talk about Tsipras should have come up with a plan B while he was in these intense negotiations with the eurozone bigs is nuts... As far as i know, Louis, you are the only one talking like this. What the talk is about is whether Tsipras as the national leader of Syriza for several years before Syriza won the January 2015 elections and he became Prime Minister should have delegated work on preparing a plan B within the party and since January also within the government. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] Convert to the Drachma – Piece of Cake. Right… | naked capitalism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Jul 16, 2015, at 2:55 PM, Dayne Goodwin via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 6:41 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: . . . But all this talk about Tsipras should have come up with a plan B while he was in these intense negotiations with the eurozone bigs is nuts... As far as i know, Louis, you are the only one talking like this. What the talk is about is whether Tsipras as the national leader of Syriza for several years before Syriza won the January 2015 elections and he became Prime Minister should have delegated work on preparing a plan B” within the party and since January also within the government. In fact, didn’t Varoufakis confirm earlier this week that a committee was instructed to study a Plan B during the negotiations but the project was quickly shelved? _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] Convert to the Drachma – Piece of Cake. Right… | naked capitalism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 7/16/15 10:33 AM, James Creegan wrote: But it is unavoidable at this juncture. Lenin didn't skip over the struggle against Kautsky, and move effortlessly on to the founding of the Third International, letting bygones be bygones. Between Kautsky and the Comintern, I don't know which was the bigger disaster. Not surprising that you would refer to the Comintern like some Catholics refer to St. Peter. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] Convert to the Drachma – Piece of Cake. Right… | naked capitalism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 7/16/15 2:55 PM, Dayne Goodwin via Marxism wrote: What the talk is about is whether Tsipras as the national leader of Syriza for several years before Syriza won the January 2015 elections and he became Prime Minister should have delegated work on preparing a plan B within the party and since January also within the government. In other words, he should have be considering an exit from the eurozone when his entire political trajectory has been Europeanist? And for that matter, Stathis Kouvelakis, the most prominent hard Marxist in the Greek parliament and Grexit advocate, writes a book for Verso titled Crisis in the Eurozone that has less than a page on what that would amount to. I've been referred on FB repeatedly to Grexit made Easy type articles but every one of them is idiotic. Mostly the appeals to Grexit sound like Burl Ives's Big Rock Candy Mountain but I'll give credit to Marty Hart-Landsberg for laying it on the line: To be a bit more specific, a break from the Eurozone would require nationalization of the banks -- an act that would immediately draw the country into a serious legal test with Europe since the banks are technically under the control of the European Central Bank. It would require the government to quickly issue new scrip as it prepared a new currency, and aggressively engage in an expanded public works program. At the same time it was unclear whether the new scrip would be accepted and whether the country would have sufficient foreign exchange to maintain minimum purchases of key import items such as food and medicine. Moreover, many businesses, holding debts denominated in euros, would likely be forced into bankruptcy necessitating government takeover. And, all this would take place in a relatively hostile international environment. No doubt some countries would offer words of solidarity, but it appears unlikely that any would or could offer meaningful financial or technical assistance. Still, with proper preparation the possibilities for success could have been greatly enhanced. Unfortunately, he has confidence in the BRICS that seems unwarranted in light of China's interest in buying the Port of Piraeus at fire sale prices: Strikingly, Varoufakis mentioned that Syriza had established a small team to think about what a break would mean shortly after their January 2015 election, a team that no doubt was kept small because the government wanted to keep the planning secret. But that was a mistake. Planning should have happened on a large scale and in a visible way. Discussions should have been held with international legal experts as well as with the BRICS countries concerning possible use of their new lending and investment facilities. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
