[Marxism] Katyn

[Ken Hiebert via Marxism]

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According to one account I read, fifty of those involved in the executions were 
themselves shot because they were witnesses to what had happened.
I did not see a reference to this in the Wikipedia account.
ken h

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre 

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Re: [Marxism] Katyn

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 8/24/19 12:04 AM, Glenn Kissack wrote:
Furr’s 2018 book on Katyn does address the Polish-Ukrainian 
archeological team report on the mass grave at Volodymyr-Volyns’kiy in 
Ukraine. Chapter 5 of the book is entirely devoted to the report. Among 
other things, he notes that “between 96% and 98% of the shell casings 
found at this mass execution site are of German make and are date ‘1941’.”


https://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Katyn-Massacre-Evidence-Solution/dp/0692134255/ref=sr_1_11?keywords=grover+furr=1566618561=gateway=8-11

Glenn



To start with, I am not going to spend $20 on anything written by Furr. 
I got bootlegged copies of Sunkara and Blumenthal's books to review for 
the same reason. I might consider that in Furr's case but Columbia does 
not have any of his books. Quelle surprise.


Let me cut to the chase on this German vs Soviet bullets found at 
Volodymyr-Volynsky that Furr's online article is all about. 
Volodymyr-Volynsky is in Ukraine, not in Russia. The Katyn forest is 
near Smolensk, a city about about 220 miles southwest of Moscow. 
Volodymyr-Volynsky is in the northwest of Ukraine, more than 400 miles 
from Smolensk.


Five years ago archaeologists discovered 950 bodies at 
Volodymyr-Volynsky. It was called a "new Katyn" since this was on the 
grounds of a Soviet prison where Polish officers were being jailed. In 
the unlikely case that Furr is correct about German bullets being found 
in the mass graves (leaving aside that Soviet guards were known to use 
German pistols made available through the non-aggression pact), what 
bearing does that have on the mass graves near Smolensk?


950 corpses were found in Volodymyr-Volynsky but the number in Katyn 
forest is estimated to be 22,000. Furr would have you believe that the 
report of a Polish archaeologist named Dominika Sieminska bears him out. 
However, this report is not available online so we have to rely on his 
interpretation, a guy who is on record as saying that Stalin never 
removed a single Soviet official from his post during his entire career.


The Furr article I referred to previously was titled "The “Official” 
Version of the Katyn Massacre Disproven? Discoveries at a German Mass 
Murder Site in Ukraine". As should be obvious, it does not refer to the 
Smolensk graves.


Furr attempts to deal with the Smolensk graves in another online piece 
here: https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/pol/truthaboutkatyn.html


It is filled with nonsense like this:

	Maybe the Soviets did it! After all, either the Soviets killed the 
Polish officers, or the Nazis did.


	Or -- as I am increasingly inclined to think -- the Soviets shot some 
of the Polish officers, and then later the Nazis shot the rest, for 
different reasons.


So, maybe the Soviets did shoot them all. But the evidence is not there.

The physical evidence might not be there but the Russians released a ton 
of documents in 2010 that indicated Soviet responsibility, including a 
letter by Beria calling for the liquidation of Polish officers.


Here's how Furr tries to prove that the letter was bogus:

	I've gone over these 4 pages several times, including with a magnifying 
glass. Of course, it might be a very clever forgery. But it LOOKS 
genuine enough.


	There are a number of places that are especially noteworthy, including 
(but not limited to) the following:


	* p. 1- The note where the signatures for those approving the 
resolution are to be placed.


	* p. 3 - The second line under point 2). Here the word "Ukrainy" is not 
divided, but is all on the second line. In the "original", the word is 
divided "Ukrai-ny", between lines 2 and 3 of point 2). This is the only 
place where the line breaks are different from the "original" -- and 
proves that this is different typing, not some kind of clever photocopy.


	* p. 4 - the note on the left questioning the choice of Bashtakov and 
suggesting other names.


	- Just as Mukhin did, starting in 1995! This would be quite a 
coincidence, and makes me wonder about whether this copy is genuine.


	* p. 4 - The name "Kotunov" written between Merkulov and Bashtakov. In 
the "original" document the name written there is "Kobulov". I'm no 
expert in Russian handwriting, but the third letter in this name cannot 
be a "b". It must be a "t".


Sorry. I just can't take this sort of thing seriously. Most of Furr's 
refutation is simply a rehash of what Viktor Iliukhin has alleged. Who 
is Viktor Iliukhin, you ask? Only the Communist Party's representative 
to the Duma. If this is the kind of testimony that is supposed to cinch 
the case for Furr, it is hardly worth rebutting.

Re: [Marxism] Katyn

[Glenn Kissack via Marxism]

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Furr’s 2018 book on Katyn does address the Polish-Ukrainian archeological team 
report on the mass grave at Volodymyr-Volyns’kiy in Ukraine. Chapter 5 of the 
book is entirely devoted to the report. Among other things, he notes that 
“between 96% and 98% of the shell casings found at this mass execution site are 
of German make and are date ‘1941’.”

https://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Katyn-Massacre-Evidence-Solution/dp/0692134255/ref=sr_1_11?keywords=grover+furr=1566618561=gateway=8-11
 


Glenn 

> However, what I did find was a Telegraph article from 2014 titled “Stalin-era 
> mass grave found in Ukrainian castle” 
> (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11059224/Stalin-era-mass-grave-found-in-Ukrainian-castle.html)
>  that states the archaeologists found cartridge cases from a TT pistol, a 
> Soviet sidearm, in the mass grave. Odd that such a scrupulous researcher like 
> Furr neglected to mention that, although it goes hand in hand with other 
> findings of his over the years, including the charge that Leon Trotsky 
> conspired “with fascists and his own followers within the USSR to sabotage 
> industry, transportation, and mines.”

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[Marxism] Katyn

[Ken Hiebert via Marxism]

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If the German army was responsible for the executions, how did they happen to 
have these Poles in custody?
Did they have them in custody before they invaded the Soviet Union and did they 
bring them to Katyn?
Or did the fleeing Soviet forces fail to release the prisoners as they were 
retreating to the east?
ken h
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Re: [Marxism] Katyn

[David McDonald via Marxism]

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Timothy Snyder cites the book below in his recounting of the Katyn (and
associated) massacres.

Katyn: A Crime Without Punishment (Annals of Communism Series)

https://www.amazon.com/Katyn-Without-Punishment-Annals-Communism/dp/0300195478/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=katyn%3A+a+crime+without+punishment=1566587658=gateway=8-1

It is a documentary history drawn from Soviet sources made public in the
wake of the demise of the USSR.

I would like to know if anyone has read it or if Grover Furr has attempted
to refute it. There were no negative reviews on Amazon.
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Re: [Marxism] Katyn

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 8/22/19 7:01 PM, Glenn Kissack wrote:

Okay, but I read his book on Katyn and his meticulous research is very 
impressive.

Glenn


You really need to look at this thing politically. The men killed in 
Katyn were Polish nationalists and completely anti-Communist. While not 
so far to the right as Stephen Bandera, they were possible allies of the 
Germans against the USSR. You also have to examine the Soviet occupation 
of the eastern half of Poland that involved massive repression 
consistent with Stalin's against his own countryman. If he was ready to 
send top Soviet generals to their death for no good reason, why would he 
not want to kill Poland's nationalist elite?

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Re: [Marxism] Katyn

[Glenn Kissack via Marxism]

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Okay, but I read his book on Katyn and his meticulous research is very 
impressive.

Glenn


>> A different view on Katyn:
>> https://mltoday.com/book-review-the-mystery-of-the-katyn-massacre/
>> Glenn
> 
> A review of a Grover Furr book? This guy also argued that Trotsky and 
> Bukharin were Nazi spies. That will give you an idea of his credibility.


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Re: [Marxism] Katyn

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 8/22/19 6:11 PM, Glenn Kissack via Marxism wrote:

A different view on Katyn:

https://mltoday.com/book-review-the-mystery-of-the-katyn-massacre/

Glenn


A review of a Grover Furr book? This guy also argued that Trotsky and 
Bukharin were Nazi spies. That will give you an idea of his credibility.

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Re: [Marxism] Katyn

[Tristan Sloughter via Marxism]

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Ooh, Grover...
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[Marxism] Katyn

[Glenn Kissack via Marxism]

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A different view on Katyn:

https://mltoday.com/book-review-the-mystery-of-the-katyn-massacre/

Glenn
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[Marxism] Katyn Massacre

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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Tomorrow I have an article about the films of Andrzej Wajda scheduled 
for Counterpunch. In doing some research on Wajda, I discovered that his 
father was killed in the Katyn Massacre. Following up on that, I 
discovered that Roger Annis views that as a hoax just like the 
Holodomor. How did anybody trained in the Trotskyist movement end up 
going so astray?


http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/09/10/another-flawed-and-biased-report-on-ukraine-by-the-un-human-rights-office/
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Re: [Marxism] Katyn massacre

[Jeffrey Masko via Marxism]

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Thanks, I'll check that out. I can't really say much without a knowledge of
Russian; I'm guessing you know Russian to check his work? The lack of work
on primary sources from scholars not committed to Anti-Communism,
Stalinism, or Trotskyism is important to moving away from great men of
history theories that obscure structuralist analysis, is it not?

On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 10:47 AM, DW via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
 wrote:

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 Glenn: I realize that some people on this list will not read anything
 written by Grover Furr

 Why would this be? I read his work and I can't find much to argue with
 methodologically.

 Really? Interesting.

 His method is terrible, IMO. If you read his most important work
 Khrushchev Lied which purports to show evidence that Trotsky
 collaborated not only with the Nazis but with the Japanese Monarchy is
 based on the *exact* same methodology...that is the frame up...used by
 Vishinsky in his prosecution and eventual murder of the Old Bolsheviks in
 1937...that is: confessions. The confessionary strategy of prosecution was
 based on the sheer *terror* of being threatened with death, or one's
 family, and without the right of cross examination. Furr's supposes that no
 one had a reason to lie thus all the testimony must be true.

 A good smashing of Grover's method in his defense of the Moscow Trials is
 here:

 *http://tinyurl.com/lspl7np http://tinyurl.com/lspl7np*  Their site
 appears to be down this morning but check in later.
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-- 
J.A. Masko
College of Communications
Penn State University
State College, Pa 16801

“There are deeper strata of truth in cinema, and there is such a thing as
poetic, ecstatic truth. It is mysterious and elusive, and can be reached
only through fabrication and imagination and stylization.”

-Werner Herzog, “LESSONS OF DARKNESS”
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Re: [Marxism] Katyn massacre

[MM via Marxism]

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On 02 Mar 2015, at 5:47 PM, DW via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

 A good smashing of Grover's method in his defense of the Moscow Trials is
 here:
 
 *http://tinyurl.com/lspl7np http://tinyurl.com/lspl7np*  Their site
 appears to be down this morning but check in later.



Cached version here: http://bit.ly/1zzDPyU

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Re: [Marxism] Katyn massacre

[DW via Marxism]

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Glenn: I realize that some people on this list will not read anything
written by Grover Furr

Why would this be? I read his work and I can't find much to argue with
methodologically.

Really? Interesting.

His method is terrible, IMO. If you read his most important work
Khrushchev Lied which purports to show evidence that Trotsky
collaborated not only with the Nazis but with the Japanese Monarchy is
based on the *exact* same methodology...that is the frame up...used by
Vishinsky in his prosecution and eventual murder of the Old Bolsheviks in
1937...that is: confessions. The confessionary strategy of prosecution was
based on the sheer *terror* of being threatened with death, or one's
family, and without the right of cross examination. Furr's supposes that no
one had a reason to lie thus all the testimony must be true.

A good smashing of Grover's method in his defense of the Moscow Trials is
here:

*http://tinyurl.com/lspl7np http://tinyurl.com/lspl7np*  Their site
appears to be down this morning but check in later.
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Re: [Marxism] Katyn massacre

[Ken Hiebert via Marxism]

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 Glenn Kissack said:
The SD article addresses this:

By 1992 the Soviet, and then the Russian, governments had officially declared 
the Stalin-era Soviet leadership guilty of shooting somewhere between 14,800 
and 22,000 Polish prisoners to death in April and May 1940. This was agreeable 
to anticommunists and a bone in the throat for some pro-Soviet people. For a 
few years it did appear that the matter was basically settled. The evidence 
seemed clear: the Soviets had shot the Poles.

The author then goes on to show that several Russian writers began to question 
the verdict and discovered archival information throwing the official version 
into question. Take a look, it’s interesting.

Ken Hiebert replies:
We have rather quickly reached the limit of my knowledge of this issue.  Until 
today I could not have told you where Katyn is.  Based on what has appeared on 
this list and what we can read on Wikipedia I think we can agree that these 
officers were in the Soviet Union as prisoners of the Soviet government.  If it 
was the Nazis who carried out the massacre, my first question would be how did 
these officers become prisoners of the Nazis?

In any case, my thanks to those who have drawn our attention to the article in 
Socialism and Democracy.


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[Marxism] Katyn massacre

[Ken Hiebert via Marxism]

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 Your Friend Alex said (in part):

Nationalist Poles for example, whine about Katyn etc but they leave out the 
part where they fought against the Soviet Republic, supported Pilsudski and the 
dictator after him who organized the occupations of western Belarus and western 
Ukraine.  The Polish imperialists treated the Jewish masses harshly, severely 
repressing all but the zionists.  Both sides fought each other, many times with 
massacres, repressions and extra-judicial executions.  From the Soviet side, 
for example, one can see the logic of executing the officer caste and bourgeois 
intellectuals of Poland as repression of western counter-revolution- most of 
those executed supported their bourgeoisie against the USSR.  It is a crime 
that members of the communist opposition and artist class were murdered in a 
political and cultural-counter-revolution but I don't feel the same way at all 
about Polish imperialist collaborators.

Ken Hiebert replies:
There are still some people who deny that this massacre was carried out by 
Stalin.  The last time I looked the Communist Party of Canada 
(Marxist-Leninist) said that the massacre was committed by the Nazis.  This is 
interesting to me because the CPC (M-L) is not a totally isolated sect.  Eg., a 
supporter of theirs is (or was) president of the USWA local at Stelco in 
Hamilton, Ontario.  
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2237045-rolf-gerstenberger-acclaimed-as-head-of-uswa-1005/
I believe the massacre was committed by Stalin.  According to one account I 
read, after the massacre, Stalin had the Red Army soldiers involved shot.  They 
were, after all, witnesses to the events.

Whatever Stalin thought he was achieving at the time, this massacre has 
poisoned relations  between Russia and Poland for decades.  We could 
characterize this as whining, but what would that change?  And the stain on 
the Russian 
Revolution does not stop there.  Visitors to Toronto can find in the West End a 
monument to the victims of the massacre.


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Re: [Marxism] Katyn massacre

[Glenn Kissack via Marxism]

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 There are still some people who deny that this massacre was carried out by 
 Stalin.  The last time I looked the Communist Party of Canada 
 (Marxist-Leninist) said that the massacre was committed by the Nazis.  This 
 is interesting to me because the CPC (M-L) is not a totally isolated sect.  
 Eg., a supporter of theirs is (or was) president of the USWA local at Stelco 
 in Hamilton, Ontario.  
 http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2237045-rolf-gerstenberger-acclaimed-as-head-of-uswa-1005/
 I believe the massacre was committed by Stalin.  According to one account I 
 read, after the massacre, Stalin had the Red Army soldiers involved shot.  
 They were, after all, witnesses to the events.

Ken:

I’ve always believed the Polish officers were killed by the Soviet army. Then 
Socialism and Democracy published this in 2013: 

http://sdonline.org/62/the-official-version-of-the-katyn-massacre-disproven-2/ 
http://sdonline.org/62/the-official-version-of-the-katyn-massacre-disproven-2/

It’s a well-researched examination of the Katyn massacre, which raises serious 
doubts about the official version that blames all the deaths on the Red Army. 

I realize that some people on this list will not read anything written by 
Grover Furr, but he reads Russian and appears to have done a prodigious amount 
of research. He doesn’t exonerate the Soviets so much as point out serious 
discrepancies with the official version.

Glenn
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Re: [Marxism] Katyn massacre

[Jeffrey Masko via Marxism]

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Glenn: I realize that some people on this list will not read anything
written by Grover Furr

Why would this be? I read his work and I can't find much to argue with
methodologically.
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Re: [Marxism] Katyn massacre

[Jeffrey Masko via Marxism]

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I'm sure many on the list know of Grover Furr's work on Stalinism; his
The Official” Version of the Katyn Massacre Disproven? Discoveries
at a German Mass Murder Site in Ukraine was published in
Socialism and Democracy (2013) Vol. 27, No. 2, pp. 96 -129 with the PDF
available online. How does one answer his case without resorting to calling
him a Stalin apologist? Others must know the case much better than I, but
he makes a compelling case when considered along with Lih's recounting of
Lenin that accounts of the period are hopelessly mired in anti-soviet
vitrol. Jacobin's article
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/timothy-snyders-lies/on Timothy Snyder
*Bloodlands* covers nothing that Furr hasn't already pointed out but is a
start in addressing the fabrications that go along with the territory.
​​
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Re: [Marxism] Katyn massacre

[Ken Hiebert via Marxism]

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I am not suggesting that Wikepedia is a final authority, but I found this 
excerpt interesting.  What would be the motivation for acknowledging guilt if 
the matter is still in dispute?
ken h


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
The government of Nazi Germany announced the discovery of mass graves in the 
Katyn Forest in 1943. When the London-based Polish government-in-exile asked 
for an investigation by the International Red Cross, Stalin immediately severed 
diplomatic relations with it. The Soviet Union claimed the victims had been 
murdered by the Nazis in 1941, and continued to deny responsibility for the 
massacres until 1990, when it officially acknowledged and condemned the 
perpetration of the killings by the NKVD, as well as the subsequent cover-up by 
the Soviet government.[1][2][3][a]
An investigation conducted by the Prosecutor General's Office of the Soviet 
Union (1990–1991) and the Russian Federation (1991–2004) confirmed Soviet 
responsibility for the massacres, but refused to classify this action as a war 
crime or an act of genocide. The investigation was closed on the grounds that 
the perpetrators of the massacre were already dead, and since the Russian 
government would not classify the dead as victims of Stalinist repression, 
formal posthumous rehabilitation was deemed inapplicable.[4]
In November 2010, the Russian State Duma approved a declaration blaming Stalin 
and other Soviet officials for having personally ordered the massacre.[5]
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Re: [Marxism] Katyn massacre

[Dayne Goodwin via Marxism]

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On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Ken Hiebert via Marxism
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:
  . . .
 Whatever Stalin thought he was achieving at the time, this massacre has 
 poisoned relations  between Russia and Poland for decades. . .


Of course it isn't like Russian-Polish relations were rosy before
then.   We can start way back before the 1790s partitions that
resulted in Poland being completely wiped off the map, the majority
becoming part of the Russian empire.  We can jump forward to the
Poland-Soviet Russia war of 1920-21, followed in later 20s and 30s
with Stalin's pruning and purging of the Communist Party of Poland
until he liquidated the leadership and finally dissolved it in 1938.
This cleared the way for the Stalin-Hitler pact of August 1939
secretly dividing Poland between Germany and the Soviet Union and
opening the way to WWII.
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Re: [Marxism] Katyn massacre

[Dayne Goodwin via Marxism]

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I regret those exaggerated last six words ...and opening the way to
WWII.  It would have been better to at least add these words to the
phrase:  ...and opening the way to the beginning of WWII warfare.   Or
better to just leave off those last six words.

On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Dayne Goodwin daynegood...@gmail.com
wrote:

 On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Ken Hiebert via Marxism
 marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:
   . . .
  Whatever Stalin thought he was achieving at the time, this massacre has
 poisoned relations  between Russia and Poland for decades. . .


 Of course it isn't like Russian-Polish relations were rosy before
 then.   We can start way back before the 1790s partitions that
 resulted in Poland being completely wiped off the map, the majority
 becoming part of the Russian empire.  We can jump forward to the
 Poland-Soviet Russia war of 1920-21, followed in later 20s and 30s
 with Stalin's pruning and purging of the Communist Party of Poland
 until he liquidated the leadership and finally dissolved it in 1938.
 This cleared the way for the Stalin-Hitler pact of August 1939
 secretly dividing Poland between Germany and the Soviet Union and
 opening the way to WWII.

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