Re: [Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders

[Ratbag Media via Marxism]

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Manuel Barrera  writes: "Heatwaves rising from the desert always seem
like an oasis.'

..only if you think that the Sanders phenomenon has no cause  in real
angst and suffering. It is a symptom of the everyday experience of
millions  -- most of whom would not be able to make the transition, on
their own, to  relating to another alternative left voice.
If Sanders had remained an 'independent' -- of course that may indeed
be a different challenge with an easier tactical passage.

But inside the DEMs...!?

That's your problem, stateside.

But that Sanders poses as a socialist and projects a sort of crude and
erratic  class divide  -- in the context of the US Presidential  Game
Show :  that has to be very significant.
That has to be a plus because, despite what ever his preferences,
Sanders unleashes and inspires forces  that may later find him,and his
party allegiance, wanting.

What happens 'if'/when he backs Clinton?  Where does that momentum and
frustration go?

It won't default to a bunch of wannabe 'we-told-you-so' outfits who
did not go through the Sanders experience with them.

It will instead  be demoralised.

And the promise fades because the 'real' socialists  could not harness it.

dave riley
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Re: [Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders

[Manuel Barrera via Marxism]

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"But that Sanders poses as a socialist and projects a sort of crude and erratic 
 class divide  -- in the context of the US Presidential  Game Show :  that has 
to be very significant. That has to be a plus because, despite what ever his 
preferences, Sanders unleashes and inspires forces  that may later find him,and 
his party allegiance, wanting. What happens 'if'/when he backs Clinton?  Where 
does that momentum and frustration go? It won't default to a bunch of wannabe 
'we-told-you-so' outfits who did not go through the Sanders experience with 
them. It will instead  be demoralised. And the promise fades because the 'real' 
socialists  could not harness it."

I would say, Dave, that your points are really an argument that would give many 
leftists in the U.S. a justification to support Sanders, much like a similar 
argument made it palatable for otherwise skeptical people of color--and some 
leftists--to support Obama in 2008 (and only less so in 2012). I believe that 
what is remarkable  about this "up-ante'd" posing of a "socialist" running for 
a capitalist party is NOT that it "unleashes and inspires forces that may later 
find him . . . wanting" (THAT is the trap), but the reason behind this event; 
namely that the economic crisis created by the capitalists and the political 
bankruptcy of their TWIN parties has resulted in growing disaffection with 
capitalism  and openness (openly so) to ideas that are both truly socialist and 
the phony "socialism" propounded by Sanders and, now, some of those "wannabe" 
outfits trying to ride the coattails of this "Sanders experience". 

It is indeed remarkable that there are more people looking to socialist ideas. 
But that yearning for socialist ideas is an argument actually to BE socialist, 
to Explain socialism for what it truly IS and for veritable socialists engage 
larger numbers of interested youth and the oppressed that "crude and erratic 
class divide"  by showing WHERE that divide actually is, between the interests 
of the working and oppressed masses and that of the liberal wing of the ruling 
classes on the one hand and, as well, against the pessimism and frustration 
emanating from the disaffected privileged and reactionary elements among the 
classes that represent the fascist alternative. 

Now is the time to be clear ("patiently explain") about the lessons and 
devastating results inherent in what has up to now only been an esoteric notion 
(for the masses) of "lesser-evil politics". Now is the time to present truly 
anti-capitalist, "socialist", or independent-of-the-capitalist-parties 
alternative to the Twin Pillars of Continued War, Repression, Environmental 
Devastation, and Economic Disaster that are the Democratic and Republican 
Parties. Supporting a (supposed) radical to "build a people's movement" within 
the capitalist parties is exactly the wrong thing to do and does nothing to 
"unleash and inspire" social forces that have already become inspired and 
already  at least partially unleashed by their/our own reaction to the ongoing 
capitalist drive toward barbarism. It is not Sanders that unleashing or 
inspiring anything, but only reflecting the very real potential for actually 
building a "people's movement" and "political revolution" against the 
capitalist parties an
 d their failed policies. Indeed, the  liberal capitalists may not have seen 
the potential for drawing the masses back into their lesser-evil trap, but it 
is plainly clear that supporting that attraction is likely a great opportunity 
for creating that very "demoralisation" that would come of the Sanders campaign 
and--to be very clear--even his potential victory if it comes to that! 

A Sanders presidency would do the same for all the working masses that the 
Obama victory did for the Black and Brown communities, a descendant spiral into 
continued and acquiescent misery at the hands of our murderous rulers with a 
"socialist" at the helm. Rather than building momentum for change we would see 
more economic devastation, more suppression of democratic rights, and continued 
war and militarization of communities with effect that even "radicals" would be 
giving such outcomes their tacit endorsement at worst or weakened credibility 
in trying to counter it at best. The masses may actually learn from such an 
experience, but they will be doing so with an even more moribund 
"revolutionary" current flailing away in the wake of the demoralising "flood" 
that entrapped the "socialists" to bring Sanders to power. And, such an outcome 
would be the result of a "victory" and not the more likely "defeat" of the 
Sanders campaign to run capitalism for the 

Re: [Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders

[Manuel Barrera via Marxism]

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" We may not have to deal with the impact the Sanders campaign may have on US 
3rd party politics -- but , let's say, Sanders is useful even a world away."

Heatwaves rising from the desert always seem like an oasis. It's pathetic to 
support Sanders if you're a revolutionary when in the U.S. From "a world away" 
it is like spears urging the buffalo to the cliff.
"But nothing ever stays the same, Nothing's explained, The longer it takes, the 
looser the ties,

'Cause this is it for all we know, So say goodnight to me, And lose no more 
time, no time,
Resisting the flow"

  
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[Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders

[Michael Yates via Marxism]

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>From the fine artist, Mike Alewitz's Facebook page:
UNDERSTANDING THE SANDERS REVOLUTION
Let me see if I get this correctly:
Bernie Sanders went on demonstrations in the early 1960s, but then took a 
50-year break until 2014.So he skipped the anti-Vietnam War movement, the 
women’s movement and the other critical social movements of his generation.Now 
he supports working people, but thinks its ok to bomb them in other 
countries.And he’s for democracy, but he supports monarchies and Israeli 
apartheid.He’s for government transparency, but wants Snowden to stand 
trial.He’s independent, but has always supported the corporate Democratic Party 
candidates.He’s against police violence, but thinks the police are a socialist 
institution.He voted against the Iraq War, but then voted to fund it.He’s 
battling the Washington establishment, but he’s a lifelong professional 
politician.He’s against Hillary Clinton, but has pledged to support her after 
she wins the primary.He’s a democratic socialist, but assures us he will not 
threaten capitalism.And he has proclaimed that his vote in Iowa was the 
beginning of a Political Revolution...So - he’s getting movement activists off 
the streets and signing them up to strengthen the Democratic Party, a party 
that destroys progressive movements, so he can lead the revolution that will 
end Democratic Party politics, in order to move to a kind of socialism that 
preserves capitalism?
Makes total sense.___
What a complete waste of time by left-liberals devoting their energies to 
tweeting and facebooking every ten seconds during Sanders-Clinton debates, 
going on and on about a Sanders' revolution. Meanwhile, death and destruction 
are rained down upon people all over the world, ignored by both candidates, who 
would do nothing to end it. And the environment gets more unlivable by the 
month, and again neither candidate gives a shit about it and has no plan to 
change things. Just as those who support, directly or indirectly, butchers like 
Assad and Putin should be shunned, so too should those who more or less demand 
that leftists support Sanders be, scorned and shunned. They are enemies of the 
left and make no mistake about it.


  
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Re: [Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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Good for Mike A.!
Both in general, and for this in particular:
"... those who support, directly or indirectly, butchers like Assad and
Putin should be shunned."
(This would mean, by the way, shunning Socialist Action... )
See his book at:
http://www.amazon.com/Insurgent-Images-Agitprop-Murals-Alewitz/dp/1583670343

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 12:58 PM, Michael Yates via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> In my post, the words from "What a complete waste of time" on are mine not
> Mike Alewitz's.
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Re: [Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 2/5/16 2:31 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism wrote:

Good for Mike A.!
Both in general, and for this in particular:
"... those who support, directly or indirectly, butchers like Assad and
Putin should be shunned."
(This would mean, by the way, shunning Socialist Action... )
See his book at:
http://www.amazon.com/Insurgent-Images-Agitprop-Murals-Alewitz/dp/1583670343


Shunning is problematic.

I don't think that Syria can be a litmus test for left unity even though 
the positions adopted, for example, by the Alan Woods sect are ghastly.


For example, if there was a protest against fascists in Britain, you can 
expect this sect, CounterFire, and other pro-Russian leftists to be 
involved in the organizing. It, of course, is their contradiction that 
the fascists are likely to agree more with Alan Woods than with them on 
Putin.

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Re: [Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders

[Gary MacLennan via Marxism]

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Well I have to confess, to a sneaking pleasure that Sanders was doing
well.  I know, I know. My Bad.

But there is an absolute dearth of anything like the Good News. Here in
Australia a billionaire Tory phoney has the liberal progressives in a
swoon. The Arab Spring was strangled in the cradle. Syriza cut its own
throat. And the sight of Putin in Moscow makes me want to retch. I won't go
on.

Alewitz is absolutely correct, (unfortunately).  And I have been pulled
into line, and I promise I won't backslide...still

comradely

Gary

On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 3:25 AM, Michael Yates via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> *
>
> From the fine artist, Mike Alewitz's Facebook page:
> UNDERSTANDING THE SANDERS REVOLUTION
> Let me see if I get this correctly:
> Bernie Sanders went on demonstrations in the early 1960s, but then took a
> 50-year break until 2014.So he skipped the anti-Vietnam War movement, the
> women’s movement and the other critical social movements of his
> generation.Now he supports working people, but thinks its ok to bomb them
> in other countries.And he’s for democracy, but he supports monarchies and
> Israeli apartheid.He’s for government transparency, but wants Snowden to
> stand trial.He’s independent, but has always supported the corporate
> Democratic Party candidates.He’s against police violence, but thinks the
> police are a socialist institution.He voted against the Iraq War, but then
> voted to fund it.He’s battling the Washington establishment, but he’s a
> lifelong professional politician.He’s against Hillary Clinton, but has
> pledged to support her after she wins the primary.He’s a democratic
> socialist, but assures us he will not threaten capitalism.And he has
> proclaimed that his vote in Iowa was the beginning of a Political
> Revolution...So - he’s getting movement activists off the streets and
> signing them up to strengthen the Democratic Party, a party that destroys
> progressive movements, so he can lead the revolution that will end
> Democratic Party politics, in order to move to a kind of socialism that
> preserves capitalism?
> Makes total sense.___
> What a complete waste of time by left-liberals devoting their energies to
> tweeting and facebooking every ten seconds during Sanders-Clinton debates,
> going on and on about a Sanders' revolution. Meanwhile, death and
> destruction are rained down upon people all over the world, ignored by both
> candidates, who would do nothing to end it. And the environment gets more
> unlivable by the month, and again neither candidate gives a shit about it
> and has no plan to change things. Just as those who support, directly or
> indirectly, butchers like Assad and Putin should be shunned, so too should
> those who more or less demand that leftists support Sanders be, scorned and
> shunned. They are enemies of the left and make no mistake about it.
>
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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By "shunning" I wasn't suggesting that united front actions were
impermissible with them. Granted, I didn't define who, how and when to shun
them.
What I meant was that on the level of political analysis, we have the duty
to tell Socialist Action to stop supporting genocidal maniacs, and to
educate potential recruits to SA about their bankruptcy. And to open a
dialogue about what a principled antiwar/solidarity movement could look
like.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

> On 2/5/16 2:31 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism wrote:
>
>> Good for Mike A.!
>> Both in general, and for this in particular:
>> "... those who support, directly or indirectly, butchers like Assad and
>> Putin should be shunned."
>> (This would mean, by the way, shunning Socialist Action... )
>> See his book at:
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Insurgent-Images-Agitprop-Murals-Alewitz/dp/1583670343
>>
>
> Shunning is problematic.
>
> I don't think that Syria can be a litmus test for left unity even though
> the positions adopted, for example, by the Alan Woods sect are ghastly.
>
> For example, if there was a protest against fascists in Britain, you can
> expect this sect, CounterFire, and other pro-Russian leftists to be
> involved in the organizing. It, of course, is their contradiction that the
> fascists are likely to agree more with Alan Woods than with them on Putin.
>
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