Re: [Marxism] Tsipras’ Bailout Referendum Sham by Yves Smith
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * No intention of trying to take anything apart, Ralph. Yours is a thoughtful post, mercifully free from the CORRECT LINE. I think the referendum is tactically correct, even if poorly timed. Certainly it is no sham. I am not sure why, but the clarity of the issues, compared with Syria or the Ukraine is almost invigorating. Capital has entered the field in a very clear and easily discernible form. Lagarde and Schauble are plainly what they are - nothing less than the enemies of humanity. They may well win and smash Greece into submission. They certainly seem stronger. But they will pay a price for their victory, and the coming struggle with Podemos will be masked by fewer illusions. Certainly it is plain to see that Capital has nothing to offer but blood sweat and tears. The European project has been stripped of all the necessary feel good cover and idealism that marked its inception. The signs of decomposition everywhere are , without wishing to be flippant, ddeeply threatening to the stus quo . Whatever we think of Syriza, they did not fold as many on the Left believed they would. For that they deserve some credit. They have flushed out the thugs. We must now hope they can prevail. comradely Gary _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Tsipras’ Bailout Referendum Sham by Yves Smith
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Sure, but it'll take a day or three. I have to be in Grant's Pass tomorrow and then I go back there on the 1st. Sounds worthwhile, I'll read Lenin and Kevin. On 6/28/2015 7:01 PM, Andrew Pollack wrote: Ralph could you summarize your lengthy contribution above in 3 or 4 bullet points (to give us incentive to read it after wading through Yves' offensive nonsense)? Yves hasn't a clue about political dynamics. In contrast, Richard Seymour and Kevin Ovenden among others, who like us have no illusions in Tsipras, are explaining how working class Greeks can use this referendum to advance the struggle, and how we can help them. On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Ralph Johansen via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: On 6/27/2015 12:39 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: On 6/27/15 3:30 PM, Ralph Johansen via Marxism wrote: Tsipras’ Bailout Referendum Sham Posted on June 27, 2015 by Yves Smith http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/06/tsipras-bailout-referendum-sham.html Greek defiance of its creditors will make it more, not less dependent on them in the next year. So, it was more radical not to defy the creditors? Gosh, Naked Capitalism is more dialectical than I could have imagined. More like rock and hard place? The implication I get from that statement is that Yves seems to agree with assessment that referendum is too late in the day, a strategic error in the context, quoting: 'As Costas Lapavitsas of Syriza’s central committee pointed out in early March https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/03/lapavitsas-varoufakis-grexit-syriza/, it was evident that the Troika and Eurogroup were not willing to negotiate a new deal, in both senses of the word, with Greece. Tsipras’ strategy had failed and it was time to change course', because creditors could now [if not then] care less. And back then Greece had more capital reserves with which to change course, which are now largely gone. I have been following Yves Smith, and from my reading he has been about as generally supportive of Syriza as anyone (if sometimes critically so). But again, 'change course' to Grexit? Well, yes, maybe, given the choices, but I'd have to rely on those most affected to form an opinion. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Tsipras’ Bailout Referendum Sham by Yves Smith
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 6/27/15 3:30 PM, Ralph Johansen via Marxism wrote: Tsipras’ Bailout Referendum Sham Posted on June 27, 2015 by Yves Smith http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/06/tsipras-bailout-referendum-sham.html Greek defiance of its creditors will make it more, not less dependent on them in the next year. So, it was more radical not to defy the creditors? Gosh, Naked Capitalism is more dialectical than I could have imagined. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Tsipras’ Bailout Referendum Sham by Yves Smith
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 27.06.2015 21:39, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: On 6/27/15 3:30 PM, Ralph Johansen via Marxism wrote: Tsipras’ Bailout Referendum Sham Posted on June 27, 2015 by Yves Smith http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/06/tsipras-bailout-referendum-sham.html Greek defiance of its creditors will make it more, not less dependent on them in the next year. That one sentence has made me decide that this article isn't worth reading. Obviously the election of Syriza and the struggles accompanying it were a complete waste of time and the best policy for the Greek working class would have been simply to accept any shit the Troika threw at them. Struggle is pointless - we might as well all give up - socialism is impossible. Or have I somehow misinterpreted the ultimate conclusion of this type of argument? So, it was more radical not to defy the creditors? Gosh, Naked Capitalism is more dialectical than I could have imagined. Indeed! Einde O'Callaghan _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Tsipras’ Bailout Referendum Sham by Yves Smith
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Well Einde, great minds think alike! I disliked t his article intensely. Not to say though, that I think Syriza has been a tad naive. They should always have borne in mind that they were dealing with the enemy, even though they could not say that publicly. This was always a political crisis first and foremost and I wonder if Tsirpas truly understood that (?). Nonetheless, all criticism to one side, there can be doubt who the good guys are here and that is the Greek people. May they prevail. comradely Gary On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 6:04 AM, Einde O'Callaghan via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 27.06.2015 21:39, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: On 6/27/15 3:30 PM, Ralph Johansen via Marxism wrote: Tsipras’ Bailout Referendum Sham Posted on June 27, 2015 by Yves Smith http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/06/tsipras-bailout-referendum-sham.html Greek defiance of its creditors will make it more, not less dependent on them in the next year. That one sentence has made me decide that this article isn't worth reading. Obviously the election of Syriza and the struggles accompanying it were a complete waste of time and the best policy for the Greek working class would have been simply to accept any shit the Troika threw at them. Struggle is pointless - we might as well all give up - socialism is impossible. Or have I somehow misinterpreted the ultimate conclusion of this type of argument? So, it was more radical not to defy the creditors? Gosh, Naked Capitalism is more dialectical than I could have imagined. Indeed! Einde O'Callaghan _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/gary.maclennan1%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Tsipras’ Bailout Referendum Sham by Yves Smith
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Ugh, and is the KKE calling for a boycott of the referendum? _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Tsipras’ Bailout Referendum Sham by Yves Smith
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Basing that on the translation of their statement: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=autotl=enjs=yprev=_thl=enie=UTF-8u=http%3A%2F%2Fagkarra.com%2F%25CE%25BA%25CE%25BA%25CE%25B5-%25CE%25B4%25CE%25B7%25CE%25BC%25CE%25BF%25CF%2588%25CE%25AE%25CF%2586%25CE%25B9%25CF%2583%25CE%25BC%25CE%25B1%2Fedit-text=act=url _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Tsipras’ Bailout Referendum Sham by Yves Smith
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Amen Gary, and then Smith comes up with another great sentence to explain what's happening: So the only conceivable excuse for waiting this long is for Tsipras to attempt to save himself. but thanks to Ralph for sharing the article; it does bring together a lot of information. Dayne On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 2:24 PM, Gary MacLennan via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: Well Einde, great minds think alike! I disliked t his article intensely. Not to say though, that I think Syriza has been a tad naive. They should always have borne in mind that they were dealing with the enemy, even though they could not say that publicly. This was always a political crisis first and foremost and I wonder if Tsirpas truly understood that (?). Nonetheless, all criticism to one side, there can be doubt who the good guys are here and that is the Greek people. May they prevail. On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 6:04 AM, Einde O'Callaghan via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: On 27.06.2015 21:39, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: On 6/27/15 3:30 PM, Ralph Johansen via Marxism wrote: Tsipras’ Bailout Referendum Sham Posted on June 27, 2015 by Yves Smith http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/06/tsipras-bailout-referendum-sham.html Greek defiance of its creditors will make it more, not less dependent on them in the next year. That one sentence has made me decide that this article isn't worth reading. Obviously the election of Syriza and the struggles accompanying it were a complete waste of time and the best policy for the Greek working class would have been simply to accept any shit the Troika threw at them. Struggle is pointless - we might as well all give up - socialism is impossible. Or have I somehow misinterpreted the ultimate conclusion of this type of argument? So, it was more radical not to defy the creditors? Gosh, Naked Capitalism is more dialectical than I could have imagined. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
