Re: [Marxism] Greek Leader Who Said 'Jews Don't Pay Taxes' Named Defense Minister
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 1/28/15 4:29 AM, Jim via Marxism wrote: KKE is surely another anti-austerity party, and it has enough seats to form a government coalition with Syriza, even if its ageing Stalinism has made it into yet another quasi-social democratic party. You'd think that would make it a good fit with the left social democratic Syriza. I thought most of us would be aware at this point that the KKE despises Syriza and regards it as pro-austerity. Unlike any CP in the world, it is a throwback to 3rd period Stalinism and as such evokes the social fascism outlook of the pre-Popular Front period. This is why Syriza ended up in bloc with ANEL more than anything else. I think that there's a somewhat idealized view of wielding power here. There's a tendency to idealize the Bolsheviks who never would have descended to such opportunist maneuvers. If you read E.H. Carr, however, you'll discover that they didn't always live up to their lofty ideals. For example, Mustafa Kemal was very amenable to friendly relations to the infant Soviet republic, so much so that the Kremlin looked the other way when he killed the leaders of the Turkish CP. And then there's Fidel. The Cuban revolutionaries were so desperate for friendly relations internationally that they didn't break with Franco's Spain after taking power. When the PRI in Mexico that had taken Cuba's side in its dealings with the OAS massacred students in 1968, the Cuban press said zero. If you are looking for purity, you'd better stick with the newspapers of self-declared vanguard parties that will never be forced to make choices that contradict their principles. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Greek Leader Who Said 'Jews Don't Pay Taxes' Named Defense Minister
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * While it is true that KKE is running a second Third Period and does sees SYRIZA as almost socialfasiscts, it is not true that SYRIZA was forced by that fact to a coalition with the ultraright of Kamenos. The coalition had obviously been decided before the ballot. SYRIZA had always the ease to form a left government by his own and ask for support in the parliament. The river and the independent Greeks having declared a definite no to new elections threre was no fear. Even in case of refusal by these two bourgeois parties, the hot potato would be left in KKE's hands, to decide by their vote whether a left government could be formed according to the mandate or whether new elections were to be proclaimed, and of course subsequently pay for their decision. For SYRIZA this would be a win win game: either to have the government by his own and now or to take it after the new elections less than month later! JA On 28/01/2015 03:28 μμ, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: On 1/28/15 4:29 AM, Jim via Marxism wrote: KKE is surely another anti-austerity party, and it has enough seats to form a government coalition with Syriza, even if its ageing Stalinism has made it into yet another quasi-social democratic party. You'd think that would make it a good fit with the left social democratic Syriza. I thought most of us would be aware at this point that the KKE despises Syriza and regards it as pro-austerity. Unlike any CP in the world, it is a throwback to 3rd period Stalinism and as such evokes the social fascism outlook of the pre-Popular Front period. This is why Syriza ended up in bloc with ANEL more than anything else. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Greek Leader Who Said 'Jews Don't Pay Taxes' Named Defense Minister
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 1/28/15 9:04 AM, ioannis aposperites via Marxism wrote: For SYRIZA this would be a win win game: either to have the government by his own and now or to take it after the new elections less than month later! Nobody on the left views the bloc with ANEL in a positive light. However, the acid test will be over Syriza's record as a governing party. Will it be another PASOK? Some already disposed to this analysis will view the ANEL bloc as early confirmation. Meanwhile Michael Karadjis just posted an article that weighs much heavier in my view against that analysis. Halting the privatization of the Piraeus port should matter a lot more than granting ANEL a ministry post. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Greek Leader Who Said 'Jews Don't Pay Taxes' Named Defense Minister
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I've been thinking the same about 'purity' and those who are attacking Syriza for not being pure enough. Many seem to be the same who defend (rightly more than not) Venezuela, Cuba, former USSR, and any of their questionable dealings. But when it is Syriza anything but pure is out of the question. And even more annoying to hear Marxists and Leninist act like both Marx and Lenin didn't explicitly argue in favor of taking part in bourgeois government and against the idea that you should either wait to do anything in the government until class consciousness is at a level open to socialism or forcing it from above. To me it often sounds like, Socialism must come from below! And Syriza won't give it to us from above, so they are bad! It is baffling. Tristan _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Greek Leader Who Said 'Jews Don't Pay Taxes' Named Defense Minister
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * [reply inline / bottom-posted] on Tue, 27 Jan 2015 23:36:52 -0500, Sheldon Ranz via Marxism wrote: On the one hand, Nixon and Stalin were two anti-Semites who supplied Israel with arms, so need to worry on that front (unless you're Palestinian). On the other hand, the only other anti-austerity party that got seats was the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place - or to please any Greeks out there, between Scylla and Charybdis. Holy Odysseus, Batman - does Tzipris have tsores! This is not correct: KKE is surely another anti-austerity party, and it has enough seats to form a government coalition with Syriza, even if its ageing Stalinism has made it into yet another quasi-social democratic party. You'd think that would make it a good fit with the left social democratic Syriza. More to the point for Marxists, however, is when you decide not to form a government, even when you can, or even participate as a minority in government. For revolutionaries it would be parliamentarist suicide to do so if there is no revolutionary situation and the overwhelming majority of the population is not with you. (And they aren't with Syriza yet.) -- Jim Moody (j...@redunity.org) on 28/01/2015 _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Greek Leader Who Said 'Jews Don't Pay Taxes' Named Defense Minister
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 1/28/15 11:01 AM, Jim via Marxism wrote: Russia, Cuba, China, etc. were doomed to fail on this basis: they turned into their opposite soon after their revolutions because revolution was not generalized, causing misery to their populations and actually holding back revolution within and elsewhere. I always am stunned to see events that elapsed over decades involving huge contradictory tendencies reduced to a paragraph although I suppose that this is better than what I have seen on Twitter. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Greek Leader Who Said 'Jews Don't Pay Taxes' Named Defense Minister
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * [reply inline / bottom-posted] on Wed, 28 Jan 2015 08:28:46 -0500, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: I thought most of us would be aware at this point that the KKE despises Syriza and regards it as pro-austerity. Unlike any CP in the world, it is a throwback to 3rd period Stalinism and as such evokes the social fascism outlook of the pre-Popular Front period. This is why Syriza ended up in bloc with ANEL more than anything else. I think that there's a somewhat idealized view of wielding power here. There's a tendency to idealize the Bolsheviks who never would have descended to such opportunist maneuvers. If you read E.H. Carr, however, you'll discover that they didn't always live up to their lofty ideals. For example, Mustafa Kemal was very amenable to friendly relations to the infant Soviet republic, so much so that the Kremlin looked the other way when he killed the leaders of the Turkish CP. And then there's Fidel. The Cuban revolutionaries were so desperate for friendly relations internationally that they didn't break with Franco's Spain after taking power. When the PRI in Mexico that had taken Cuba's side in its dealings with the OAS massacred students in 1968, the Cuban press said zero. If you are looking for purity, you'd better stick with the newspapers of self-declared vanguard parties that will never be forced to make choices that contradict their principles. Of course KKE despises Syriza. But the point responded to was by a contributor who left out KKE when listing those 'parties' opposed to austerity. Dismiss it by all means as a likely suitor for Syriza, but it cannot be ignored on the anti-austerity front, however this all plays out in coming months. The 20th was a wasted century, so it's worse than pointless to idealize the Bolsheviks or any other set of Marxists from that time. One of the most foul ideas to have emerged via Stalin but espoused by those to his left who ought to know better is to imagine that you can have socialism in one country: that is, national socialism. Russia, Cuba, China, etc. were doomed to fail on this basis: they turned into their opposite soon after their revolutions because revolution was not generalized, causing misery to their populations and actually holding back revolution within and elsewhere. And when the party substitutes for the class as leader, then we're certainly up that famous creek without a paddle. -- Jim Moody (j...@redunity.org) on 28/01/2015 _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Greek Leader Who Said 'Jews Don't Pay Taxes' Named Defense Minister
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On the one hand, Nixon and Stalin were two anti-Semites who supplied Israel with arms, so need to worry on that front (unless you're Palestinian). On the other hand, the only other anti-austerity party that got seats was the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place - or to please any Greeks out there, between Scylla and Charybdis. Holy Odysseus, Batman - does Tzipris have tsores! On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Charles Faulkner via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * thanks for this. troubling. sorry if i missed the discussion but is this the only way they could have a majority? is he a placeholder until they have a clear majority or is there something else at work? isn't he exactly the kind of person you could not trust being a defense minister? where does this choice fit in syriza's three planks? troubling. - Original Message - From: jay rothermel via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu To: Charles Faulkner lacena...@comcast.net Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 5:29:14 PM Subject: [Marxism] Greek Leader Who Said 'Jews Don't Pay Taxes' Named Defense Minister _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/sranz18%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
