Re: [Marxism] Hundreds Face Conspiracy Charges For Actions Of A Few During Inauguration Day Protests

2017-10-27 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 10/27/17 3:06 PM, Jeff via Marxism wrote:
poison relations between forces with the same goals but who disagree 
over tactics, or who simply want to play different tactical roles having 
different levels of risk.



It is impossible to develop peer-to-peer relations with these people 
because they operate under clandestine conditions and never accept the 
idea of majority decision-making. All you need to do is read about what 
happened at Berkeley when Milo Yiannopoulos was going to speak. These 
morons in masks descended upon a peaceful protest and hijacked it. They 
are 10 times more elitist than the worst "Leninist" sect. Their goal is 
"diversity of tactics", which means giving them the right to act up 
whenever larger forces are protesting. To give credit to the Weathermen, 
they carried out their "Days of Rage" in isolation from the rest of the 
movement and not parasitically attached itself to it.

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Re: [Marxism] Hundreds Face Conspiracy Charges For Actions Of A Few During Inauguration Day Protests

2017-10-27 Thread Jeff via Marxism

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On 2017-10-27 18:00, Anthony Boynton via Marxism wrote:


Black Bloc tactics are consciously planned, rather than spontaneous, 
acts
that have often lead to the arrest of protesters who did not 
participate in
the planning and who have no knowledge of the planning, object or 
intent of

the black bloc.


All of this sort of talk (especially by Louis who has the loudest voice 
on this list) involves over-generalizations based on individuals' 
limited experiences and choice of what they want to label "Black Bloc" 
(or similarly "Antifa"). So statements like this aren't totally untrue 
but nor are they generally true.


What's more, there are enough examples of actions in which nothing like 
a black block is present, but where there are arrests of or police 
violence against demonstrators uninvolved in the planning (obviously) 
and who often did not have any "knowledge of the planning, object or 
intent" of the organizers, such as the organizers' intention to legally 
march to what they thought was a safe location while the police had a 
different idea.


But I have seen many times where those who planned illegal tactics 
(whether calling themselves black block or not) cooperated with other 
organizers to separate out their contingent in an action specifically so 
those not wishing to risk arrest can demonstrate in a separate location 
which remains relatively safe. But in some cases the stated nature of 
the action is such that ANYONE going to it would be aware of the risk so 
this isn't necessary.


Now I would indeed consider it very irresponsible for a demonstration to 
be billed as safe when the organizers know otherwise; I'm sure this has 
occurred but is the exception not the rule. And again, since groups who 
identify themselves as black block or antifa are numerous and generally 
disconnected from each other, you cannot extend the blame for some bad 
behaviour to all of those with a similar name or appearance. Any more 
than is it acceptable to blame all communists for the actions of 
Stalinism (does that not ring a bell??).


As I said, there can and should be fruitful debate within the left over 
tactics and organizing principles in which these issues will be raised. 
But making unfair generalizations about entire "groups" (that is, those 
who are perceived to be in a category that an outsider chooses to 
ignorantly define and characterize) will only stifle that debate and 
poison relations between forces with the same goals but who disagree 
over tactics, or who simply want to play different tactical roles having 
different levels of risk.


- Jeff




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