Re: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

[David McDonald via Marxism]

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Here is the text from my FB post. I took Michael Karadjis' advice from this
thread and posted the following:

Call for a discussion:

To All Supporters of the Syrian Revolution

We need to do something visible in the world that will help in the fight
against Assad's regime.

We need to identify ourselves to ourselves so we can gauge our strength and
plan quickly but carefully to add our weight, whatever that may be, to the
fight.

As a first step I suggest something on the order of a conference organized
around "Save Aleppo" or a similar idea that inserts us into the public
discussion, draws fire from the Amen Corner, and tries to shape the public
discussion. In a private email to me the following was suggested:

"I think that we should kick around the idea of a worldwide teach-in on
Syria that would be streamed on the net as a Skype-based (or some other
appropriate technology) event that could feature some of the leading voices
such as Gilbert Achcar, [...] Danny Postel, and most of all Syrians both in
country and abroad."

I think this is a great idea. Especially "most of all Syrians both in
country and abroad." Depending on what number and sort of allies we find,
it is easy to extend this idea to even more popular methods of reaching
people, such as benefit concerts.
First things first. Let's find ourselves. If you are sympathetic please
like this post and share it. Tag the people you especially want to reach.
Then let's talk about specifics.

That's the post. If you're interested let me know in any fashion and when
this gets off the ground you will be invited to the discussion. I'm David
McDonald in Seattle, that will be enough to find me on Fb.

David
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Re: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

[Michael Karadjis via Marxism]

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David, I recommend you launch the idea on your special Syria facebook 
page, tag as many people as you can think of, then I'll do the same, and 
others the same, till we reach most of the activists around the world 
concerned with Syria, and have a solid brainstorm about what we can do.


-Original Message- 
From: David McDonald via Marxism

Sent: Friday, October 7, 2016 1:37 AM
To: Michael Karadjis
Subject: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

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Yes. I totally support that idea. I think a bunch of the radical Arabs 
we
see on FB would go for this. To give such people a voice is 
revolutionary

work.

If people are willing, we might consider framing this as a "Save Aleppo"
effort or some such and attempt to, in addition to the above, make a
fundraising effort for the White Helmets that would allow us to approach
various artists (Musicians) and immeasurably broaden the appeal of the
event. Think of al all-day political meeting as suggested above followed 
by

a more public, widely advertised effort for a cultural event. Maybe we
could get that fantastic Arab hip-hop group I saw on one of the videos
--Idrees Amaad (?).

Within reason, I am willing to work more or less full-time on this for a
while.

I would really like to hear one or more of the most ferocious Syrians 
who
responded to Max Blumenthal yesterday tell him from a broad podium that 
his

name will not be uttered nor remembered.

I think the ISO will help. Conferences are almost the only thing they 
are

good for, but their politics on this are correct. Weird to me that the
Schachtmanites and the Hoxhaites are the tendencies that get this. We 
have

wings of both in Seattle, but nevermind.

Of course there will be tension between efforts to broaden and the 
desire
of some broader forces for a less pointed approach than our dagger to 
the
throat, so serious political acumen will have to be brought to bear to 
help

us beat back the politics of but keep in those broader forces. In other
words, coalition work. Some compromise is inevitable unless we wish to 
talk

to ourselves but we are seasoned organizers.

We will need money. Go Fund Me leaps to the mind. Sometimes initial
fundraising helps you know where to go next so a Go Fund Me would in 
itself

be an organizing effort.

Time is of the essence.

David
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Re: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

[Tristan Sloughter via Marxism]

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I too was about to bring up that there might be resources available to
organize this through some the orgs. ISO for sure and DSA I think would
be a likely partner. I'm former ISO and recently joined the DSA.

-- 
  Tristan Sloughter
  t...@crashfast.com
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Re: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

[David McDonald via Marxism]

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Yes. I totally support that idea. I think a bunch of the radical Arabs we
see on FB would go for this. To give such people a voice is revolutionary
work.

If people are willing, we might consider framing this as a "Save Aleppo"
effort or some such and attempt to, in addition to the above, make a
fundraising effort for the White Helmets that would allow us to approach
various artists (Musicians) and immeasurably broaden the appeal of the
event. Think of al all-day political meeting as suggested above followed by
a more public, widely advertised effort for a cultural event. Maybe we
could get that fantastic Arab hip-hop group I saw on one of the videos
--Idrees Amaad (?).

Within reason, I am willing to work more or less full-time on this for a
while.

I would really like to hear one or more of the most ferocious Syrians who
responded to Max Blumenthal yesterday tell him from a broad podium that his
name will not be uttered nor remembered.

I think the ISO will help. Conferences are almost the only thing they are
good for, but their politics on this are correct. Weird to me that the
Schachtmanites and the Hoxhaites are the tendencies that get this. We have
wings of both in Seattle, but nevermind.

Of course there will be tension between efforts to broaden and the desire
of some broader forces for a less pointed approach than our dagger to the
throat, so serious political acumen will have to be brought to bear to help
us beat back the politics of but keep in those broader forces. In other
words, coalition work. Some compromise is inevitable unless we wish to talk
to ourselves but we are seasoned organizers.

We will need money. Go Fund Me leaps to the mind. Sometimes initial
fundraising helps you know where to go next so a Go Fund Me would in itself
be an organizing effort.

Time is of the essence.

David

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 5:51 PM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

> On 10/4/16 8:43 PM, David McDonald via Marxism wrote:
>
>> We have some people with authority on our side. We could come up with a
>> mighty list of speakers, especially if we employed Skype or similar
>> technology to make it an international thing.  Or your idea. Or whatever.
>> But it's time. The Amen Corner would go apeshit.
>>
>> David McDonald
>>
>
> I think that we should kick around the idea of a worldwide teach-in on
> Syria that would be streamed on the net as a Skype-based (or some other
> appropriate technology) event that could feature some of the leading voices
> such as Gilbert Achcar, who I am quite close to, Danny Postel, and most of
> all Syrians both in country and abroad.
>
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Re: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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There is a growing network of Syria solidarity activists, locally,
nationally and globally, with Syrians at the heart of it and including
other Arabs as well as we gringoes.
The ideas put out here are intriguing and encouraging. Let's keep this
discussion going.
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Re: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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I honestly think the best way to "humanize" a cause is to make sure that
people from those communities are represented properly. Everyone is going
ape shit about Max Blumenthal (and Seymour Hersh before that) but let's be
honest, some of this is the fault of leftists who have allowed people from
the West to become the arbiters of Syrian (and Palestinian) voices. These
Western left circles appear to be responding to various domestic
constraints on funding and political climate and have been highly selective
with regard to *which* Palestinian and Syrian voices they care to feature
-- usually selecting a handful of people who live in the West to be the
tokens. In effect they have done what the neocons did with Chalabi and what
the Zionists did with Abbas. The best way forward is to make sure that
those people who live in Syria are able to express their views. I assume
that in a political movement that is actually accountable, one more crappy
article about Syria would not cause this much offense. It is only because
there was some sort of assumption that Alternet and Max Blumenthal were
expected to be the voice of another people that there is such
consternation. Otherwise, what is one more shitty article?

The two authors that wrote "Burning Country" seem to have close contacts
with the various people who were working in these local committees. Perhaps
an initiative about getting Westerners to "rethink Syria" should start with
making sure the people in those committees have faces, names, articles, etc
that can be shared in the West. What are those peoples thoughts about
Palestine/Israel, about capitalism, about NGOs, etc? I think it is time to
shift the discussion to what they have to say so we don't just need to
cherry-pick among Western intellectuals and journalists.

- Amith

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 8:51 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *
>
> On 10/4/16 8:43 PM, David McDonald via Marxism wrote:
>
>> We have some people with authority on our side. We could come up with a
>> mighty list of speakers, especially if we employed Skype or similar
>> technology to make it an international thing.  Or your idea. Or whatever.
>> But it's time. The Amen Corner would go apeshit.
>>
>> David McDonald
>>
>
> I think that we should kick around the idea of a worldwide teach-in on
> Syria that would be streamed on the net as a Skype-based (or some other
> appropriate technology) event that could feature some of the leading voices
> such as Gilbert Achcar, who I am quite close to, Danny Postel, and most of
> all Syrians both in country and abroad.
>
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Re: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 10/4/16 8:43 PM, David McDonald via Marxism wrote:

We have some people with authority on our side. We could come up with a
mighty list of speakers, especially if we employed Skype or similar
technology to make it an international thing.  Or your idea. Or whatever.
But it's time. The Amen Corner would go apeshit.

David McDonald


I think that we should kick around the idea of a worldwide teach-in on 
Syria that would be streamed on the net as a Skype-based (or some other 
appropriate technology) event that could feature some of the leading 
voices such as Gilbert Achcar, who I am quite close to, Danny Postel, 
and most of all Syrians both in country and abroad.

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Re: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

[Michael Karadjis via Marxism]

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Original Message- 
From: Louis Proyect via Marxism

quoting
Sam Charles Hamad:

I beg everybody - it's time to treat these people as fascists. They are
no better. They are legitimising murder, ethnic cleansing and genocide.
People need to treat them as they deserve to be treated. No more excuses
- excusing them is to be complicit with them.
...

That may sound extreme, but I agree with Sam. That is what they are 
doing.


What's more, in terms of the era we are in, I not only agree with Sam, 
but also have my own view regarding the centrality of this.  Syria - the 
world's most majestic revolutionary uprising of the 21st century, and 
currently the world's biggest genocide, with some 500,000 people killed, 
as well as a gigantic new Nakbah with half the population uprooted - is 
now the biggest issue in the world. It is centrally important to world 
politics that the Russian-Iranian invasion of Syria, and the genocidal 
family clique it keeps in control of Damascus, is smashed, no less than 
it was for US imperialism to be smashed in Indochina in the 1960s and 
1970s.


I don't expect most people to agree with this, of course. Sometimes the 
full impact of events is more evident later. After all, with the Soviet 
support and arming of Israel in 1948, most of the official left were 
fully Zionist at the time, and viewed support for Israel and the ethnic 
cleansing of the Palestinians as a way of supporting socialist kibbutzes 
against "reactionary Arab states" and "Islamist forces" backed by 
British imperialism. So familiar. It took a while back then, too. 


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Re: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 10/3/16 9:21 PM, A.R. G wrote:

Which Syrians? Do people in Syria read Alternet? Do people in America
read it for that matter?


I am talking about the Syrian left, or actually the Arab left that is 
living in the USA and Great Britain mostly. The kind of people who put 
out Muftah, for example. Riad Alarian was a co-founder. Blumenthal 
doesn't give a crap about them. Writing articles taking up their cause 
is not going to get the attention of the people who put out Salon, 
Alternet, Commondreams, or Counterpunch. You have to make a choice if 
you are going to make a career out of leftist journalism. I should know. 
I was more or less forced to resign from Counterpunch after Jeff St. 
Clair refused to publish an article that went against the current.




Yes, you should call them out, but this sounds like saying we should
never read anything he writes again on any subject. I think that goes
too far.



I haven't seen much output from Blumenthal lately. Maybe he got on board 
the Assadist train to help his career. He had the gall to Tweet that 
being pro-Assad condemned you to being in a beleaguered minority. What 
planet is he living on?

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Re: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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Which Syrians? Do people in Syria read Alternet? Do people in America read
it for that matter?

Yes, you should call them out, but this sounds like saying we should never
read anything he writes again on any subject. I think that goes too far.

- Amith

On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 8:53 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> On 10/3/16 8:26 PM, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:
>
>> But I do not expect that much of him or other Western journalists in the
>> first place. Is it really fair to say his journalist contributions on
>> other
>> issues should be thrown to the wind over his statements about the White
>> Helmets?
>>
>
>
> Oh, please, Amith. Blumenthal and Ben Norton for that matter will go
> unscathed because they get called out for writing lies. The only people
> pissed at him are Syrians and who cares about them?
>
> Here's the deal. Any journalist who writes lies should get called out
> whether it is Judith Miller or Max Blumenthal. In fact, up until now there
> has only been minor carping about Blumenthal who mainly wrote obnoxious
> Tweets about Syria. But this article is truly toxic stuff, filled with
> half-truths and outright lies. When you write shit that justifies Assad's
> genocidal attack on Aleppo, that is no different than Tablet or Hillel
> defending the IDF bombing in Gaza. I reserve the right to blast the Israel
> lobby and the Baathist amen corner.
>
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Re: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 10/3/16 8:26 PM, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:

But I do not expect that much of him or other Western journalists in the
first place. Is it really fair to say his journalist contributions on other
issues should be thrown to the wind over his statements about the White
Helmets?



Oh, please, Amith. Blumenthal and Ben Norton for that matter will go 
unscathed because they get called out for writing lies. The only people 
pissed at him are Syrians and who cares about them?


Here's the deal. Any journalist who writes lies should get called out 
whether it is Judith Miller or Max Blumenthal. In fact, up until now 
there has only been minor carping about Blumenthal who mainly wrote 
obnoxious Tweets about Syria. But this article is truly toxic stuff, 
filled with half-truths and outright lies. When you write shit that 
justifies Assad's genocidal attack on Aleppo, that is no different than 
Tablet or Hillel defending the IDF bombing in Gaza. I reserve the right 
to blast the Israel lobby and the Baathist amen corner.

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Re: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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I have to say, as much as I agree with the merits of the criticism of MB,
RK, and BN on this, I can't agree with the vilification of these people.

What do others expect from them? They are Western journalists, all of whom
started as bloggers. They are producing materials for what is a dying
field. I can't help but think that the obsession with what Max Blumenthal
has to say about Syria in the first place is a sign of being tremendously
out of touch with what people in Syria have to say. You guys are speaking
about him as though he is some sort of political leader. He is a guy who
writes blog articles for liberals in the West.

I have always had great respect for him given his principles, particularly
the fact that he left Al-Akhbar over its Assad apologetics. I think that
took guts. I am disappointed that he appears to have reversed some of that.
I also disagreed with his take on Alison Weir; I thought his statements
were unfair.

But I do not expect that much of him or other Western journalists in the
first place. Is it really fair to say his journalist contributions on other
issues should be thrown to the wind over his statements about the White
Helmets? Exactly what is the expectation of these people that they are
supposed to be morally pure? I assume the value of Alternet and other
similar publications is to provide Westerners with an alternative view. 95%
of Max's writings have done exactly that. Why throw all of that out due to
his failure to take a more principled position on Syria? Is he some sort of
political decision-maker? Last I checked he is simply a blogger. In fact he
is rehashing the talking points that have become depressingly common on the
left. I don't know why anyone would expect any more out of him.

Again, I'm not defending his views on this but I think we should allow room
for error before deciding that someone who does not actually live in Syria
or Palestine or make significant political decisions about either of those
places is categorically blacklisted from contributing to discussion about
one or the other.

- Amith

On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 3:39 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> One excellent point in particular made by Sam must be emphasized:
> When the Assadists terrorist-bait the White Helmets, or label entire cities
> as "under terrorist control" (Khalek), they are aiding and abetting murder.
> I am being literal; their words have consequences! The climate they create
> says to our rulers that no-one will complain if the bombing/torture/sieges
> continue.
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Re: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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One excellent point in particular made by Sam must be emphasized:
When the Assadists terrorist-bait the White Helmets, or label entire cities
as "under terrorist control" (Khalek), they are aiding and abetting murder.
I am being literal; their words have consequences! The climate they create
says to our rulers that no-one will complain if the bombing/torture/sieges
continue.
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Re: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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Sam Charles Hamad chimes in:

Max Blumenthal can never again fault one supporter of Israel's 
aggression against Palestinians or one gangsterish propagandist of any 
government he doesn't like for claiming that aid organisations are, if 
we're being honest, worthy targets. That's what Max is doing. The White 
Helmets are a part of the Syrian revolution. They operate in areas of 
Syria liberated by rebels and their victims are like the vast majority 
of *victims* in Syria - those people targeted by Assad and his allies.


Blumenthal is making the case for these people, those who carry no 
weapons but rather carry maimed and all too often murdered children out 
of rubble, to be annihilated. You might think that's hyperbole, but 
that's at the heart of these smears. These people are so thorough in 
their support for fascist, genocidal counter-revolution in Syria. It's 
remarkable. And people keep telling me I shouldn't 'write them off'. 
It's too late. It's gone past that. If Mr Blumenthal was in front of me, 
I would not be responsible for my actions. This snot-nosed child of 
ultra-privileged political aristocracy - I used to think his rebellion 
against the politics of his parents was perhaps accidentally noble, but 
he's proved beyond all doubt that he's as good as a fascist. Perhaps 
even more sinister than your standard fascist.


When, for example, the Neo-Nazi Nick Griffin made the same claims as Max 
and his ilk about the 'White Helmets', at the time of Jo Cox's murder 
(Cox, if you remember, was a major patron of the White Helmets in life 
and hundreds of thousands was raised for them posthumously on her 
GoFundMe page at the prompting of her husband), hardly anybody cared. 
You expect fascists like Griffin to support fascism, whether it's in 
Aldershot or Aleppo, but Max Blumenthal is considered by millions across 
the world to be a 'progressive' - to be a leftist. His poison against 
the White Helmets is part of a wider attempt to legitimise their murder 
and, in general, the genocide in Syria being carried out by Assad, Iran 
and Russia.


I beg everybody - it's time to treat these people as fascists. They are 
no better. They are legitimising murder, ethnic cleansing and genocide. 
People need to treat them as they deserve to be treated. No more excuses 
- excusing them is to be complicit with them.

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Re: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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>
> that's great re your piece on the Greens. Of course we'll have to rebut
> all the trolling it will generate.
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Re: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 10/3/16 3:05 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism wrote:


Riad is co-editor of the wonderful publication Muftah (muftah.org)
Louis where was this originally posted?


On FB. Btw, I have an article appearing in Muftah tomorrow about Syria 
and the Green Party. Riad has guts publishing it.

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Re: [Marxism] Riad Alarian responds to Max Blumenthal on FB

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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Riad is co-editor of the wonderful publication Muftah (muftah.org)
Louis where was this originally posted?
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