Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees, and the major culprit

[Lüko Willms via Marxism]

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on Dienstag, 8. September 2015 at 03:04, Ken Hiebert via Marxism wrote:

> Lüko Willms ends his message of this morning with the sentence,
> "That is the line to be followed: 'You created the crisis, you then
> should take in the refugees which you created'."
> Lüko and I agree on the need to demand that the US take in Syrian refugees.

  Not only to accept refugees in large numbers, but also stop fuelling the 
destructive civil war in Syria by their intervention. 

  Makeing clear that it is the US imperial monster which is keeping the 
destruction alive. That it is the US war against the peoples of this world 
which is the main source of IS's strength. Withdraw all US military to inside 
the US borders. That's the beginning of peace in this world. 

  And reminding the USA of its shameful refusal to accept Jewish refugees from 
the Nazi rule in Germany and Europe. 

 
Cheers, 
Lüko Willms

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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees, and the major culprit

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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Posted to FB by John Game:

For me one of the great historical failures of our generation's left has 
been the inability to shift internationalist solidarity work to take 
into account the rise of democratic revolutionary movements in the MENA 
countries, probably the first harbringer of which was the Green movement 
in Iran. The whole logic has been one where the struggle for democratic 
rights has been put at loggerheads with the struggle against imperialism 
in dominant left discourse, whether this took the shape of a quiet 
uneasiness or wild conspiracy theory.


Attempts to address these tensions were met with attempts to paint those 
arguing this into the same corner as older liberal internationalist 
opponents of the anti-war movement-with greater or lessor dishonesty. 
Its always hard to say something new but harder still with those kinds 
of accusations flying around. it was a combination 
ideological/organisational police operation that was empowered by 
co-inciding with older kinds of campist ideology, whose proponents had 
allied with by now equally creaky post-68 leftists during this period, 
both locally and globally.


Its produced a situation where the anti-war position has become 
associated with people who decry the revolutionary movements in the 
region as little more then CIA conspiracies etc and where, perfectly 
reasonably, a new generation of activists thrown up by these mass 
struggles see little but lies and hypocrisy when they look at what 
officially counts as the 'left'-and given this see no reason to listen 
to any left wing arguments at all. Its reduced what was once a global 
movement with enormous potential to the status of a bunch of truthers.
Instead of fashioning a politics where the struggle for democratic 
rights went hand in hand with the struggle against imperialism-the 
established left has created a discourse which mirrors that of our 
rulers-where these things are treated as opposites. I think that's a 
terrible crime particularly given the very favourable climate that 
existed in the noughties to create something better. Instead of using 
the globally transformed consciousness of the period to create something 
better--resurrection and nostalgia ruled the roost.


Laziness, confusion and opportunism mean that we have the worst of all 
possible worlds. Most of the damage has been done. I think a good start 
is to refuse to go along with lies and also understand that an 
internationalism which is concerned only with domestic issues is not 
really internationalism at all. For the immediate future I think the 
best place to forge a new politics of Internationalism is in the refugee 
solidarity movement.

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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees, and the major culprit

[Greg McDonald via Marxism]

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In his famous work "The Raw and the Cooked", Levi-Strauss posits that
binary opposites form the basis of all human culture and signifying
systems. It's simply the way the mind works in default mode. In this case,
such thinking should also be examined as culturally unconscious myth-making.
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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees, and the major culprit

[Dennis Brasky via Marxism]

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It's incredible to me to see Luko over and over refusing to acknowledge the
destruction caused by Iran, Russia, and Hezbollah 's intervention on behalf
of a mass murderer. He has blinded himself to see US imperialism as the
only source of destruction and reaction. As Trotsky warned, Marxist
politics is more complicated than placing a plus where the enemy puts a
minus.

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 2:35 AM, Lüko Willms 
wrote:

>
> Makeing clear that it is the US imperial monster which is keeping the
> destruction alive.
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees, and the major culprit

[Lüko Willms via Marxism]

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on Mittwoch, 9. September 2015 at 19:06, Ken Hiebert via Marxism wrote:

> We find common ground in raising the demand that the US take in
> more Syrian refugees.  I take note that some groups that share your
> view of the conflict in Syria have not raised that demand, as far as
> I know, judging from their websites.

  They obviously do not share my views, otherwise they would hammer the empire 
to open the door to refugees from the empire's crimes. 

  Anyway, I can't believe that the WWP and its splinters have much in common 
with my politics. Strange that you can't see this. 


 
Cheers, 
Lüko Willms

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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees, and the major culprit

[Lüko Willms via Marxism]

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on Mittwoch, 9. September 2015 at 13:57, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:

> Laziness, confusion and opportunism 

  good description of the source of that gobbledegook text


 
Cheers, 
Lüko Willms

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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees, and the major culprit

[Lüko Willms via Marxism]

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on Sonntag, 6. September 2015 at 21:21, Ken Hiebert via Marxism wrote:

> Lüko Willms said:
>   You looked up US-american organizations. They would perhaps react
> to the refugees dying at the US-border against Mexico, but why
> should they take a position on a European issue, the huge wave of
> refugees fleeing the Third World countries in Africa and Asia? 

> Ken Hiebert replies:
> They could be demanding that the US accept more refugees. 
> According to the article below,  "The U.S. has admitted roughly
> 1,500 Syrian refugees since 2011 and says that it will resettle no
> more than 8,000 by the end of 2016. "

> http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/09/04/major-culprit-creating-crisis-us-rebuked-failing-refugees

  Good article! Let me repeat its headline: 
"As Major Culprit in Creating Crisis, US Rebuked for Failing Refugees"

  and in the text: 

> Now, many are also looking across the Atlantic to the United
> States, where observers say key responsibility for the crisis
> lies—not only because the country is lagging in its humanitarian
> response, but also because its war policies lie at the root of the ongoing 
> displacement.
>
> "Iraqis, Syrians, Palestinians, and Libyans are not running away
> from their homes because of a natural disaster," Raed Jarrar, expert
> on Middle East politics and government relations manager for the
> American Friends Service Committee, told Common Dreams. "The U.S.
> should see this crisis as partially caused by its own actions in the region."

  That is the line to be followed: "You created the crisis, you then should 
take in the refugees which you created". 
 


Cheers, 
Lüko Willms

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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees, and the major culprit

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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It is becoming apparent that the main thing these "anti-imperialist" see in
the refugee crisis is another opportunity to push their bankrupt line that
the US is the root of all evil.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 6:08 AM, Lüko Willms 
wrote:

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>
> on Sonntag, 6. September 2015 at 21:21, Ken Hiebert via Marxism wrote:
>
> > Lüko Willms said:
> >   You looked up US-american organizations. They would perhaps react
> > to the refugees dying at the US-border against Mexico, but why
> > should they take a position on a European issue, the huge wave of
> > refugees fleeing the Third World countries in Africa and Asia?
>
> > Ken Hiebert replies:
> > They could be demanding that the US accept more refugees.
> > According to the article below,  "The U.S. has admitted roughly
> > 1,500 Syrian refugees since 2011 and says that it will resettle no
> > more than 8,000 by the end of 2016. "
>
> >
> http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/09/04/major-culprit-creating-crisis-us-rebuked-failing-refugees
>
>   Good article! Let me repeat its headline:
> "As Major Culprit in Creating Crisis, US Rebuked for Failing Refugees"
>
>   and in the text:
>
> > Now, many are also looking across the Atlantic to the United
> > States, where observers say key responsibility for the crisis
> > lies—not only because the country is lagging in its humanitarian
> > response, but also because its war policies lie at the root of the
> ongoing displacement.
> >
> > "Iraqis, Syrians, Palestinians, and Libyans are not running away
> > from their homes because of a natural disaster," Raed Jarrar, expert
> > on Middle East politics and government relations manager for the
> > American Friends Service Committee, told Common Dreams. "The U.S.
> > should see this crisis as partially caused by its own actions in the
> region."
>
>   That is the line to be followed: "You created the crisis, you then
> should take in the refugees which you created".
>
>
>
> Cheers,
> Lüko Willms
>
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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees

[Michael Karadjis via Marxism]

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-Original Message- 
From: Ken Hiebert via Marxism


I did a quick survey of groups that I identify as favourable to the 
Syrian government.  I wanted to see how they are responding to the 
current refugee crisis..

I did not see any response.

MK: Well, there is a political issue here. Their guru had this to say on 
those taking refuge in Europe, reminding one more of the rhetoric of the 
other group of western political parties identifying as favourable to 
the Syrian regime:


"Terrorism will not stop here, it will export itself through illegal 
immigration into Europe" 
https://twitter.com/Presidency_Sy/status/346700451087015937



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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees

[Lüko Willms via Marxism]

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On Samstag, 5. September 2015 at 15:31, Ken Hiebert via Marxism wrote:

> I did a quick survey of groups that I identify as favourable to the
> Syrian government.  I wanted to see how they are responding to the current 
> refugee crisis..
> I did not see any response.

  You looked up US-american organizations. They would perhaps react to the 
refugees dying at the US-border against Mexico, but why should they take a 
position on a European issue, the huge wave of refugees fleeing the Third World 
countries in Africa and Asia? 



 
Cheers, 
Lüko Willms

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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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But they're all US orgs that focus on intervention in Syria.

To play devil's advocate (I need to practice playing devil's advocate
because I'm training to be a lawyer and decidedly going to Hell), many of
the refugees fleeing for Europe (including the one that Merkel patronized)
were Palestinian, but most "Palestine solidarity" groups did/said very
little, and in fact most don't even focus on the refugees that aren't
trying to cross into Europe. Many of the people who died trying to get to
Malta were Palestinians, for example.

I've done my best personally but that's no excuse for the movement as a
whole.

I don't think it makes perfect sense to expect any of the groups taking
whatever position it is to put out statements, but perhaps they should.

The xenophobic rhetoric from Assad is so twisted, and in fact is not unique
to Europe but also common throughout the Arab world, where Syrian refugees
(Assad's "illegal immigrants") are seen as terrorist agents. Assad is
willing to use xenophobic rhetoric to defend crackdowns on his victims. He
is basically doing the same thing that Israel does when it tells other
regimes in the region to look out for Palestinian "terrorists" among the
refugee camps, etc.

- Amith

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 9:41 AM, Lüko Willms 
wrote:

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>
> On Samstag, 5. September 2015 at 15:31, Ken Hiebert via Marxism wrote:
>
> > I did a quick survey of groups that I identify as favourable to the
> > Syrian government.  I wanted to see how they are responding to the
> current refugee crisis..
> > I did not see any response.
>
>   You looked up US-american organizations. They would perhaps react to the
> refugees dying at the US-border against Mexico, but why should they take a
> position on a European issue, the huge wave of refugees fleeing the Third
> World countries in Africa and Asia?
>
>
>
>
> Cheers,
> Lüko Willms
>
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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees

[Michael Karadjis via Marxism]

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-Original Message- 
From: Louis Proyect via Marxism


It is important to understand that the latest wave of refugees are from
the middle class as opposed to those who ended up in Turkey or Lebanon
since it takes substantial sums to pay for a trip on a boat, even as it
entails terrible risks. The flight of the middle-class indicates that
the Baathist state is crumbling from within as wealthier Sunnis are
deserting a system that was useful to them in the past. This no doubt is
related to stepped up Russian intervention as Assad's pals are trying to
plug the leaks.
_

Yes, including a lot of Alawites who see the futility of dying for the 
regime:


Syria Deeply had the rare opportunity to speak to Alawite supporters of 
Assad who have fled the country nonetheless.


When 24-year-old Hussain fled his village in Syria for Mersin, Turkey, 
six weeks ago, it didn’t feel like a choice. Knowing that he would 
eventually be called for mandatory military service in the Syrian army, 
he packed his bags and made the dangerous journey across the border. “I 
did not want to join the army – this is not my battle,” he told Syria 
Deeply


http://www.syriadeeply.org/articles/2015/08/7912/assad-support-alawites-syria/ 


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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees, and the human wave breaking down all barriers, showing the power of a mass movement

[Lüko Willms via Marxism]

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on Samstag, 5. September 2015 at 18:01, Louis Proyect via Marxism speculated:

> It is important to understand that the latest wave of refugees are from
> the middle class as opposed to those who ended up in Turkey or Lebanon
> since it takes substantial sums to pay for a trip on a boat, even as it
> entails terrible risks. 

  Have you asked any of them? 

  It is rater correct to assume that they came right of the refugee camps in 
Turkey, seeing a chance to get out of harms way and to a safe place, since they 
saw the success of other refugees trying the long sea route from Libya to 
Lampedusa. And worried by the change in policy by the Turkish government to 
actively intervene in the Syrian civil war (and against the Turkish und Syrian 
Kurds at the same time). But this is also just speculation. 

  Fact is that, while in the current wave of refugees trying to reach Germany 
those from Syria seem to be a majority, but there are also lots of other 
countries, namely Iraq and Afghanistan. All from countries which had been 
militarily attacked by US imperialism. 

  And a central observation has to be stressed, namely that this mass movement 
had overcome the border police of Makedonia, Hungary, Austria and Germany, just 
by their sheer numers. They have proven the power of the mass movement. 

  And they have show that and how the masses put forward their own leaders, 
those who took the initiative to walk from Budapest to the Austrian border, 
having been abused by the treachery of the right-wing hungarian government. 

  Those Syrians who took the lead chose not to take part in the Syrian civil 
war for a government acceptable to imperialism, but showed themselves capable 
of leading mass movement. 


 
Cheers, 
Lüko Willms

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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees, and the human wave breaking down all barriers, showing the power of a mass movement

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 9/6/15 9:39 AM, Lüko Willms via Marxism wrote:

   Have you asked any of them?


No. I read newspapers instead:

Financial Times, Sept. 2 2015:

In normal times, couples like Manal, an engineer, and her husband 
Ibrahim, a lawyer, could buy a two-hour flight from Istanbul to Budapest 
for less than €200. Instead, the young Syrian professionals were forced 
to pay smugglers €3,000 on a month-long trek by foot and sea.

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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees

[Lüko Willms via Marxism]

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on Sonntag, 6. September 2015 at 15:17, Michael Karadjis via Marxism wrote:

> including a lot of Alawites who see the futility of dying for the regime:

  or for any of the other groups jockeying for the position of the quisling of 
the "International Community" or for the totalitarian Islamic State which at 
least is in a fundamental opposition to imperialism and the balkanization of 
Arabia by the European colonialists. 


 
Cheers, 
Lüko Willms

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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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It is important to understand that the latest wave of refugees are from 
the middle class as opposed to those who ended up in Turkey or Lebanon 
since it takes substantial sums to pay for a trip on a boat, even as it 
entails terrible risks. The flight of the middle-class indicates that 
the Baathist state is crumbling from within as wealthier Sunnis are 
deserting a system that was useful to them in the past. This no doubt is 
related to stepped up Russian intervention as Assad's pals are trying to 
plug the leaks.

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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 9/5/15 9:37 AM, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:

Many of the Syrian refugees I spoke with in Egypt and Lebanon
blamed ISIS and the Nusra Front rather than the regime, although that was
not necessarily a prevailing view.


Except that the Baathists have killed 7 times as many Syrians than ISIS. 
Plus, they have been using air power that has destroyed most of Aleppo 
and other major cities due to indiscriminate bombing. With ISIS, the 
average Syrian who had no interest in anything but survival could manage 
but if you are unlucky enough to be living in a Sunni neighborhood that 
had a record of resistance, all bets are off.

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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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This discussion dove-tails with thoughts I've been having about what's
going on now and how it is another example of the "Left" tailing behind the
bourgeois. Suddenly they all have discovered the Syrian refugee crisis, now
that it is all in the news. Amy said it "this photo has gone viral" and
that's why she is obligated to cover it. Where was she on Syrian refugees
before. And the nerve of these "Left" groups that are now complaining that
the US has ignored the crisis - talk about the pot calling the kettle
black.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Ken Hiebert via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> A. R. G. said:
>  It's worth noting, it's not always clear exactly what or whom the refugees
> are fleeing. Many of the Syrian refugees I spoke with in Egypt and Lebanon
> blamed ISIS and the Nusra Front rather than the regime, although that was
> not necessarily a prevailing view. In any case I don't know why you would
> expect any of these groups to issue statements, but they easily could by
> doing what they always do and blaming the resistance.
> - Amith
>
>
> Ken Hiebert replies:
> Yes, they could blame the resistance for the refugees.  But more
> important, they could be campaigning to open doors to Syrian refugees.  I
> don't know the situation in the US, but in Canada the question of refugees
> is dominating the news and has become an issue in the federal election.
> This moment will pass, but there are demonstrations across the country
> calling for open doors for Syrian refugees.  All those who present
> themselves as supporters of the Syrian people should be participating in
> this movement.
> Hundreds protest  for Syrian refugees
>
> http://www.citynews.ca/2015/09/04/hundreds-protest-in-support-of-emergency-action-for-syrian-refugees/
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Re: [Marxism] Syrian refugees

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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It's worth noting, it's not always clear exactly what or whom the refugees
are fleeing. Many of the Syrian refugees I spoke with in Egypt and Lebanon
blamed ISIS and the Nusra Front rather than the regime, although that was
not necessarily a prevailing view. In any case I don't know why you would
expect any of these groups to issue statements, but they easily could by
doing what they always do and blaming the resistance.

- Amith

On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Ken Hiebert via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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>
> I did a quick survey of groups that I identify as favourable to the Syrian
> government.  I wanted to see how they are responding to the current refugee
> crisis..
> I did not see any response.
>
> Syria Solidarity Movement
> http://www.syriasolidaritymovement.org/
>
> International Action Center
> http://www.iacenter.org/
>
> ANSWER Coalition
> http://www.answercoalition.org/
>
>
> I also looked at the website for the United National Antiwar Coalition, an
> organization that appears to be doing some good work.  My quick glance did
> not reveal anything on the refugees.
> https://www.unacpeace.org/
>
> ken h
>
>
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