Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
Hi, Am Sonntag 02 Januar 2011 schrieb kate.alh...@nokia.com: You have not yet installed Qt Components package, exactly same way that you need include and link libraries in C++ Qt, you need import Component libraries for Qml. Ok, that's correct. Yesterday i followed these instructions: http://qt-funk.blogspot.com/2010/10/fresh-from-oven-qt-extras-for-ubuntu.html The problem: There's no qt-components-dev in that repository (anymore?): E: Unable to locate package qt-components-dev There will be components for both Mobile MeeGo and Symbian and also Desktop version. And these will be different components or will they have the same API and just look different on the different plattforms? Qt Components are reducing fragmentation, first time there is toolkit supporting Both MeeGo and Symbian in Mobile and all desktop environments. But you are explicitely coding for one of these? Or will an application using qt components automatically adoped to the different components? Till ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
From: ext Till Harbaum / Lists [li...@harbaum.org] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 2:40 PM To: Alhola Kate (Nokia-FNDC/Helsinki) Cc: bernd.str...@gmail.com; meego-dev@meego.com Subject: Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application? Hi, Am Sonntag 02 Januar 2011 schrieb kate.alh...@nokia.com: You have not yet installed Qt Components package, exactly same way that you need include and link libraries in C++ Qt, you need import Component libraries for Qml. Ok, that's correct. Yesterday i followed these instructions: http://qt-funk.blogspot.com/2010/10/fresh-from-oven-qt-extras-for-ubuntu.html The problem: There's no qt-components-dev in that repository (anymore?): E: Unable to locate package qt-components-dev It looks that there is broken build for components for maveric 17.12.2010 . I put Antonio as cc, he submitted package there. There will be components for both Mobile MeeGo and Symbian and also Desktop version. And these will be different components or will they have the same API and just look different on the different plattforms? API Should be same but should look and behave acording the platform. Qt Components are reducing fragmentation, first time there is toolkit supporting Both MeeGo and Symbian in Mobile and all desktop environments. But you are explicitely coding for one of these? Or will an application using qt components automatically adoped to the different components? Components behave as they in platform UX should behave but there are no way automatically adopt UI for different UX. Just think desktop application like word processing, think hundreds of buttons in top, bottom and side menu bar. If you just scale all them to be finger size, there may be -1000% working arra left ( butons use 10 times of full availeble screen in mobile handset ). Or you may have form based config dialog in desktop but there is no algorithm just convert is as scrolled list based for handset or two column list in tablets etc. If you have application that has only two buttons, automatic conversion may be possible Kate ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
Hi, Am Dienstag 28 Dezember 2010 schrieb Bernd Stramm: What seems very ironic about the situation is that there appears to be a new, strict separation between the UX layers for mobile and desktop. Speaking of this: I have meegotouch running native on my ubuntu desktop, i have qtmobility running native there, i have the latest qtcreator 2.1.0beta and still i can't run meego qml apps: file:///home/harbaum/projekte/meego/apps/qt-components/gallery/positionindicator.qml:28:1: module com.meego is not installed import com.meego 1.0 What am i doing wrong? Or is exactly this caused by the fact, that nokia tries to fragment qt into desktop and mobile versions and i won't be able to run meego apps on the desktop without using emulation? Till ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Till Harbaum / Lists li...@harbaum.org wrote: I have meegotouch running native on my ubuntu desktop, i have qtmobility running native there, i have the latest qtcreator 2.1.0beta and still i can't run meego qml apps: file:///home/harbaum/projekte/meego/apps/qt-components/gallery/positionindicator.qml:28:1: module com.meego is not installed import com.meego 1.0 What am i doing wrong? Or is exactly this caused by the fact, that nokia tries to fragment qt into desktop and mobile versions and i won't be able to run meego apps on the desktop without using emulation? There are qt quick components (PREVIEW) packages for Ubuntu: http://qt-funk.blogspot.com/2010/10/fresh-from-oven-qt-extras-for-ubuntu.html (the same place, fn-ppa, has MTF as well, since it's a dependency of QtQC). -- Ville M. Vainio @@ Forum Nokia ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
From: meego-dev-boun...@meego.com [meego-dev-boun...@meego.com] on behalf of ext Till Harbaum / Lists [li...@harbaum.org] Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2011 9:47 PM To: Bernd Stramm Cc: meego-dev@meego.com Subject: Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application? Am Dienstag 28 Dezember 2010 schrieb Bernd Stramm: What seems very ironic about the situation is that there appears to be a new, strict separation between the UX layers for mobile and desktop. Speaking of this: I have meegotouch running native on my ubuntu desktop, i have qtmobility running native there, i have the latest qtcreator 2.1.0beta and still i can't run meego qml apps: file:///home/harbaum/projekte/meego/apps/qt-components/gallery/positionindicator.qml:28:1: module com.meego is not installed import com.meego 1.0 You have not yet installed Qt Components package, exactly same way that you need include and link libraries in C++ Qt, you need import Component libraries for Qml. What am i doing wrong? Or is exactly this caused by the fact, that nokia tries to fragment qt into desktop and mobile versions and i won't be able to run meego apps on the desktop without using emulation? There will be components for both Mobile MeeGo and Symbian and also Desktop version. Qt Components are reducing fragmentation, first time there is toolkit supporting Both MeeGo and Symbian in Mobile and all desktop environments. Kate ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
Am Dienstag 28 Dezember 2010 schrieb Bernd Stramm: What seems very ironic about the situation is that there appears to be a new, strict separation between the UX layers for mobile and desktop. The current MeeGo desktop UX is mostly a port of the Moblin Clutter/Mutter based desktop UX for keyboard based systems to MeeGo 1.0 and has been in sustaining ever since while a lot of new development has been done on the touch based UX for mobile etc. A lot has changed since the desktop UX was designed. regards Joel ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 3:45 AM, David Guimard david.guim...@mydbobjects.com wrote: I thought it was more than clear , it s written in the first page of Meego sdk1.1 the sample located here http://meego.gitorious.org/meegotouch/libmeegotouch/trees/master/examples + the power of qt graphical view enable all possibilities and allow to implements superb custom widget depending your need. Well, you can use your QGraphicsObject's from QML as well, if you really need it. i was looking for an easy way to do it six month ago by using the qml scripting but get stuck with binding the model properly.In the end i am back You should ask around qt-qml irc or mailing list if you get stuck. It's unlikely that your problem was insurmountable. I usually find answers to my questions in #qt-qml within minutes of asking. It enable to use proper UI design pattern without having to put reference of the model in the view witch is wrong from my point of view.Cocoa design I don't understand what you mean here. When you instantiate a ListView, you specify a delegate (view) and model (model) separately, without needing a reference to the model inside delegate. -- Ville M. Vainio @@ Forum Nokia ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
Disadvantage with both QWidgets (which is what I assume you mean by Qt w/o meegotouch) and mtf is that neither is an officially supported solution, i.e. you are on your own if you use them. If something works today (e.g. gestures), somebody may decide to break it tomorrow without prior warning. Go for Qt Quick if you've got a choice. -- Sent from my Nokia N900 - Original message - What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF (Meego touch framework) enabled application.? If we need to implement gestures for any given use case, will a application based on libmeegotouch be more smoother than QT app without libmeegotouch? Any touch testing results benchmark done on Meego? -Rohit ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
From: meego-dev-boun...@meego.com [meego-dev-boun...@meego.com] on behalf of ext Ville M. Vainio [vivai...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 3:23 PM To: Rohit Baravkar; meego-dev Subject: Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application? Disadvantage with both QWidgets (which is what I assume you mean by Qt w/o meegotouch) and mtf is that neither is an officially supported solution, i.e. you are on your own if you use them. If something works today (e.g. gestures), somebody may decide to break it tomorrow without prior warning. Go for Qt Quick if you've got a choice. Very big disadvantage to do QWidget application is that you can't get full MeeGo handset user experience, you don't have sliding stacked windows, portrait orientation / orientation switching support, animations etc and you can't do them at all with QWidgets ( without doing everything with proxywidget ). With Qt Quick you have all enablers for full MeeGo UX and in Qt Quick Components you have all UX components ready made. Kate -- Sent from my Nokia N900 - Original message - What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF (Meego touch framework) enabled application.? If we need to implement gestures for any given use case, will a application based on libmeegotouch be more smoother than QT app without libmeegotouch? Any touch testing results benchmark done on Meego? -Rohit ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
On Tue, 28 Dec 2010, 13:50:35 GMT, kate.alh...@nokia.com wrote: With Qt Quick you have all enablers for full MeeGo UX and in Qt Quick Components you have all UX components ready made. Well, not yet. And it's not yet clear what that means in terms of good cross-platform support (e.g. Symbian, Maemo or MeeGo). What *is* the timescale and roadmap for Qt Quick Components? Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:and...@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org/ Maemo Community Council member ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
A related question for me as I'm going to implement a couple of UXs soon, what sort of already ready made regular application components are available from Qt Quick Components right now? Button, Windows, Dialogs? Can I use everything I would have used using Qt Designer default mainwindow app skeleton? -Sivan On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Andrew Flegg and...@bleb.org wrote: On Tue, 28 Dec 2010, 13:50:35 GMT, kate.alh...@nokia.com wrote: With Qt Quick you have all enablers for full MeeGo UX and in Qt Quick Components you have all UX components ready made. Well, not yet. And it's not yet clear what that means in terms of good cross-platform support (e.g. Symbian, Maemo or MeeGo). What *is* the timescale and roadmap for Qt Quick Components? Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:and...@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org/ Maemo Community Council member ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: A related question for me as I'm going to implement a couple of UXs soon, what sort of already ready made regular application components are available from Qt Quick Components right now? You can follow the progress (for meego version) in this tracker item: http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTCOMPONENTS-72 -- Ville M. Vainio @@ Forum Nokia ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
From: Andrew Flegg [afl...@gmail.com] on behalf of ext Andrew Flegg [and...@bleb.org] Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 4:20 PM To: Alhola Kate (Nokia-FNDC/Helsinki); meetthero...@gmail.com; meego-dev@meego.com Subject: Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application? On Tue, 28 Dec 2010, 13:50:35 GMT, kate.alh...@nokia.com wrote: With Qt Quick you have all enablers for full MeeGo UX and in Qt Quick Components you have all UX components ready made. Well, not yet. And it's not yet clear what that means in terms of good cross-platform support (e.g. Symbian, Maemo or MeeGo). Components is still pre-alpha but it should be clear that is provides best mobile cross platform solution. QWidgets provide good cross platform solution in desktop but it does not fit in mobile UX paradigm. What *is* the timescale and roadmap for Qt Quick Components? Thiago or Henrik Harz can comment this issue ? Kate ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Andrew Flegg and...@bleb.org wrote: With Qt Quick you have all enablers for full MeeGo UX and in Qt Quick Components you have all UX components ready made. Well, not yet. And it's not yet clear what that means in terms of good cross-platform support (e.g. Symbian, Maemo or MeeGo). Regarding cross platform support - you can use the same source code w/ MeeGo and Symbian. You may need to adapt your custom parts (e.g. delegates) according to resolution that is lower on current Symbian devices. For Maemo, it's up to the community to provide the support. In practice, unless someone beats us to it I imagine Forum Nokia will provide this to boost MeeGo development - possibly by grabbing the MeeGo component as-is (with any luck, they will kill the MTF dependency so it'll be a breeze). What *is* the timescale and roadmap for Qt Quick Components? I don't think Nokia is publishing the roadmap yet. -- Ville M. Vainio @@ Forum Nokia ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
From: ext Ville M. Vainio [vivai...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 4:40 PM To: Andrew Flegg Cc: Alhola Kate (Nokia-FNDC/Helsinki); meetthero...@gmail.com; meego-dev@meego.com Subject: Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application? On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Andrew Flegg and...@bleb.org wrote: With Qt Quick you have all enablers for full MeeGo UX and in Qt Quick Components you have all UX components ready made. Well, not yet. And it's not yet clear what that means in terms of good cross-platform support (e.g. Symbian, Maemo or MeeGo). Regarding cross platform support - you can use the same source code w/ MeeGo and Symbian. You may need to adapt your custom parts (e.g. delegates) according to resolution that is lower on current Symbian devices. And symbian system UX differs in some elements but also in MeeGo, Netbook, Tablet and handset differs some amount even tablet and handset use same components. Issue is just similar in iPhone and iPad apps. iPad optimized needs some changes in UX. In QML this just means that your application needs to load UML file tailored for certain platform UX to provide optimum UX. For Maemo, it's up to the community to provide the support. In practice, unless someone beats us to it I imagine Forum Nokia will provide this to boost MeeGo development - possibly by grabbing the MeeGo component as-is (with any luck, they will kill the MTF dependency so it'll be a breeze). At the moment MeeGo application with Qt Quick Components is just re-compile for Maemo5 and MeeGo. As example, i developed my Ar-Drone app with our unreleased MeeGo handset and when i needed to make video, I just compiled it with Maemo5 SDK for N900. No modifications in code were needed. You can see more from: http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/blog/kate-alholas-forum-nokia-blog/2010/12/23/ar-drone-with-meego There is also practical example how to do full featured Qt Quick/Components MeeGo app. It has still install dependency to MeeGoTouch for stylebridge and application style is MeeGo and some amount different to maemo5. When we have Components where MTF dependency is removed and styling is done with border images, about only task needed from community is make style matching Memo5 Kate ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
From: meego-dev-boun...@meego.com [meego-dev-boun...@meego.com] on behalf of ext Benoît HERVIER [kher...@khertan.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 5:52 PM To: meego-dev@meego.com Subject: Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application? Hi, Very big disadvantage to do QWidget application is that you can't get full MeeGo handset user experience, you don't have sliding stacked windows, portrait orientation / orientation switching support, animations etc and you can't do them at all with QWidgets ( without doing everything with proxywidget ). It s really a bad news for me. As i didn't know that it ll be so bad. In QML this just means that your application needs to load UML file tailored for certain platform UX to provide optimum UX. So one qml declaration by plateform. If platform UX differs by the way that can't automated, someone should say how application should behave. There is exactly same problem with iPad and iPhone. You can make iPhone app run to iPad as just zoom mode but it then provides sub optimal UX, At the moment MeeGo application with Qt Quick Components is just re-compile for Maemo5 and MeeGo I have an other example. As a python developer i ll talk about what i know. One application i made, a Twitter client use actually PyQt4 or PySide binding so with Qt4. I didn't have different code for different plateform, except some dynamic adjustment for screen size, systray or some minor things for plateform look and feel. It s works on MacOSX, Windows, Xfce/Gnome/KDE on a linux debian (not yet package for other distrib), Maemo, and probably Meego (not tested yet). For all desktop UX is based to same 1984 first Mac UI pardigm, so same code will provide same UX to every platform and match system UX. It is not a problem. The thing is just that Mobile UX is no longer based on same paradigm at all. More in http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/blog/kate-alholas-forum-nokia-blog/2010/11/14/how-to-make-modern-mobile-applications-with-qt-quick-components So now about QML, if i forgot that i hate the javascript css mix of the things, currently it s require that you define ui yourself, difficult to respect look and feel of the platform, require a description of the ui for the different platform, and doesn't seem to respect Theme on Maemo. In practice, you don't need javascript or css in Qml. Or may be most complex javascript statement is assignment and if ... It IS possibble o implement QML application logic with javascript but it is not mandatory, you could implement it with C++ as usual. QML does not require diferent description for different platform but it allows you to optimize US for different platforms. Just think Netbook without touchscreen and handset. For Maemo5 UX, mostly problem is that theme differs but as I said, there is ongoing work to remove MTF dependency. It won't take long, so be patient. So yes i know, it s in development, but the problem i see here is that it s maybe not yet the time to push dev to switch to qml, and also to say that QWidget will probably not be supported. I think that it is time if you would like to make mobile applications. I m remembering when MeeGo was announce that doing your app today on Maemo in Qt will be better for future and will require less work for port to MeeGo. At this time, many dev loose time as Qt wasn't at this time really ready for everyday use (many bugs on maemo platform). Currently it s look like a new technology, require to reconstruct many things, isn't ready, and many push for using it. It s look like we are doing the same errors again. If you have done your app with Maemo5 Qt, your work will be in most cases minimal to move MeeGo and Qt Quick. Making Qt Quick UI and C++ interface in my Ar-Drone app did just require couple of days and it is not just traditionlan UI but also many custom UI elements. And now, i'll probably not adopt the QML for my project. If QWidget is drop for future Meego Handset device (by drop i mean, no autorotation, no respect of the plateform look and feel, etc ...). I ll probably look for an other plateform/framework (do not me ask which one, as i ll answer that Qt (QWidget) + Python is perfect (for my use.) ). This was the point of view of a whinning dev :) For technical reasons QWidgets ( or GTK+ or ..) can't offer optimum mobile UX. Staying in legacy technologies is easiest solution for developers but definetely it is not way to make platform or applications to succeed. We in Nokia, we would like to make platform and our devices to succeed and we would like to help our developers to succeed. For this purpose we are offering best and latest technology and not be stuck in legacy technologies. Kate ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
(Sorry about posting at meego-dev - it appears almost nobody is on-topic on this mailing list, so one more won't hurt). 2010/12/28 Benoît HERVIER kher...@khertan.net: Currently it s look like a new technology, require to reconstruct many things, isn't ready, and many push for using it. It s look like we are doing the same errors again. The amount of confidence put in Qt Quick is in a totally different ballpark from other UI technologies we've had around recently. QWidgets were not good enough for anybody, Orbit was not good enough for MeeGo, MTF was not good enough for Symbian. To say nothing about Avkon and Gtk+, that is ;-). Qt Quick is the first technology to have the whole Nokia machine behind it, for the long haul. Even if you feel some initial objection to the technology, it may be a good idea to give it a second chance - perhaps after we get a good amount of high quality training material published in a centralized way (for one reason or another, the good stuff has been Nokia internal for now). Tackling the QML learning curve is rewarded by power and quickly doing something you thought to be not worth the trouble before. no respect of the plateform look and feel, etc ...). I ll probably look for an other plateform/framework (do not me ask which one, as i ll answer that Qt (QWidget) + Python is perfect (for my use.) ). I'm afraid there is not much choice, unless you consider Objective C or Dalvik as preferable to QML + [Python|C++] ;-) -- Ville M. Vainio @@ Forum Nokia ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
Hi, Am Dienstag 28 Dezember 2010 schrieb Ville M. Vainio: QWidgets were not good enough for anybody You are talking about these QWidgets that several tutorials on the meego conference were about? Are you really wondering why developers are confused and loosing confidence in all this? Do you really wonder why so many people are hesitant to actually start doing things because they are expecting you to change your mind again, soon? Till ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
On Tuesday, 28 de December de 2010 14:37:26 kate.alh...@nokia.com wrote: What is the timescale and roadmap for Qt Quick Components? Thiago or Henrik Harz can comment this issue ? As soon as humanly possible. So sometime in Q1 or Q2 in 2011. Hopefully in time for us to talk about in the MeeGo Conf SFO. But things could change. It's not trivial to make an API that serves handsets, tablets and other things in the future (whose UX we don't know yet), yet is deep enough to make native look-and-feel and broad enough to support almost everything an app needs. Like Ville said, if you want to know more, watch the QTCOMPONENTS-72 task and join the mailing lists. *All* of the source code is public, the tasks are public, etc. The only thing we're not sharing is the actual device's theme. -- Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org Senior Product Manager - Nokia, Qt Development Frameworks PGP/GPG: 0x6EF45358; fingerprint: E067 918B B660 DBD1 105C 966C 33F5 F005 6EF4 5358 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
From: meego-dev-boun...@meego.com [meego-dev-boun...@meego.com] on behalf of ext Till Harbaum / Lists [li...@harbaum.org] Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:35 PM To: meego-dev@meego.com Subject: Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application? Am Dienstag 28 Dezember 2010 schrieb Ville M. Vainio: QWidgets were not good enough for anybody You are talking about these QWidgets that several tutorials on the meego conference were about? Are you really wondering why developers are confused and loosing confidence in all this? Do you really wonder why so many people are hesitant to actually start doing things because they are expecting you to change your mind again, soon? MeeGo conference presentations at general were not Nokia's (or I think Intel) official opinions excluding some keynotes but were just selected by content selection board that was just few (4?) persons and so more representing their opinions. As example, Nokia announced new policy for Qt 21.Oct ( read http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/blog/nokia-developer-news/2010/10/21/nokia-focusing-on-qt ). There is clearly stated role of Qt Quick. That was announced nearly month before conference. I submitted as presentation proposal UI technology evaluation about comparing UI technologies and it was not accepted to MeeGo conference content selection board so I published it as blog http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/blog/kate-alholas-forum-nokia-blog/2010/11/14/how-to-make-modern-mobile-applications-with-qt-quick-components . The Blog was published before conference and there I clearly told what situation is. You need to make difference between MeeGo project that is independent OSS project and Nokia. MeeGo conference organizers can chose someone to talk anything that does not have anything to do what Nokia does. I promise that we in Forum Nokia do everything to get developers informed as well as possible. We release Qt Quick Components pre-alpha as soon as we get it done, we released Qt for Maemo5 with first SDK. Reason that you did not hear our voice in MeeGo conference was not in our decision. Kate ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
On Tuesday, 28 de December de 2010 19:50:35 kate.alh...@nokia.com wrote: I promise that we in Forum Nokia do everything to get developers informed as well as possible. We release Qt Quick Components pre-alpha as soon as we get it done, we released Qt for Maemo5 with first SDK. Reason that you did not hear our voice in MeeGo conference was not in our decision. And as part of the Program Committee for the conference, I can tell you that we felt that showing a breadth of technologies was a good thing. MeeGo is not a Nokia thing, so we don't have to follow the official company's policy. Nokia will use Qt Quick and OpenGL ES only in the future, even on its MeeGo devices. But the MeeGo OSS project can very well use other technologies it feels necessary, like Xlib, Gtk+, Clutter, PyQt, Evas, etc. In fact, many vendors will make use of those technologies (think Flash players, Chrome browsers, etc.), which is also one of the reasons why switching to Wayland isn't trivial. -- Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org Senior Product Manager - Nokia, Qt Development Frameworks PGP/GPG: 0x6EF45358; fingerprint: E067 918B B660 DBD1 105C 966C 33F5 F005 6EF4 5358 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
2010/12/28 Till Harbaum / Lists li...@harbaum.org: Am Dienstag 28 Dezember 2010 schrieb Ville M. Vainio: QWidgets were not good enough for anybody You are talking about these QWidgets that several tutorials on the meego conference were about? Are you really wondering why developers are confused and loosing confidence in all this? Do you really wonder why so many people are hesitant to actually start doing things because they are expecting you to change your mind again, soon? 6 months ago, any sane developer would be confused because the UI technology roadmap for third party developers was confidential. Backend stuff like Qt Mobility was openly communicated, but UI technology was not. Right now, though, everything should be crystal clear: it's all about Qt Quick, and the usual Qt C++ technologies on the back end. There are no secret deprecation/obsolescence plans on the UI layer that have not been openly communicated. Even the QSceneGraph stuff (something Nokia could have as well kept as secret research project) is out there on public blogs. If someone is *still* confused, do let us know and we can make it more explicit in the future. -- Ville M. Vainio @@ Forum Nokia ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 21:21:46 +0100 Ville M. Vainio vivai...@gmail.com wrote: If someone is *still* confused, do let us know and we can make it more explicit in the future. What seems very ironic about the situation is that there appears to be a new, strict separation between the UX layers for mobile and desktop. And this happens at a time when the capabilities of mobile and desktop hardware are converging to the point that its hard to see any difference. That seem like a very strange situation. -- Bernd Stramm bernd.str...@gmail.com ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
On Tuesday 28 Dec 2010 20:41:51 Bernd Stramm wrote: On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 21:21:46 +0100 Ville M. Vainio vivai...@gmail.com wrote: If someone is *still* confused, do let us know and we can make it more explicit in the future. What seems very ironic about the situation is that there appears to be a new, strict separation between the UX layers for mobile and desktop. And this happens at a time when the capabilities of mobile and desktop hardware are converging to the point that its hard to see any difference. That seem like a very strange situation. It seems like a strange situation, until you realise that you need this technological spanner to force people to realise that building a user interface is vastly different when dealing with touch devices and the more classic keyboard/mouse combo :) Because without the spanner, it seems that people just don't understand that it is, in fact, vastly different things :) -- ..Dan // Leinir.. http://leinir.dk/ Co- existence or no existence - Piet Hein ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 21:25:42 + kate.alh...@nokia.com wrote: From: meego-dev-boun...@meego.com [meego-dev-boun...@meego.com] on behalf of ext Bernd Stramm [bernd.str...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 10:41 PM To: Ville M. Vainio Cc: meego-dev@meego.com Subject: Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application? On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 21:21:46 +0100 Ville M. Vainio vivai...@gmail.com wrote: If someone is *still* confused, do let us know and we can make it more explicit in the future. What seems very ironic about the situation is that there appears to be a new, strict separation between the UX layers for mobile and desktop. Let's say that UI paradigm renewal started from mobile devices. Desktops are still stuck 1984 paradigm. But time changes, users are more and more using tablets and handsets as they were using desktops. And this happens at a time when the capabilities of mobile and desktop hardware are converging to the point that its hard to see any difference. That seem like a very strange situation. To me, it is easy to predict what happens, there will be paradigm shift and old desktop paradigm will be history as were text based UI's. May be that Microsoft will be last dinosaur. Sure, seeing that mobile devices actually have more input methods than normal desktops. Mobiles have cameras, accelerometers, touch screens and somethings keyboards. And since designers and developers are both enabled and forced into making more inventive input methods, these will fairly soon be better than just keyboard and mouse. I just don't think that touch screens operated by 2 fingers will be where this ends up. But in the meantime, that is where it will have to start. -- Bernd Stramm bernd.str...@gmail.com ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
From: ext Till Harbaum / Lists [li...@harbaum.org] Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 10:27 PM To: Alhola Kate (Nokia-FNDC/Helsinki) Cc: meego-dev@meego.com Subject: Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application? Hi Kate, thanks for this reply. Am Dienstag 28 Dezember 2010 schrieben Sie: MeeGo conference presentations at general were not Nokia's (or I think Intel) official opinions excluding some keynotes but were just selected by content selection board that was just few (4?) persons and so more representing their opinions. Uhm, what's the point of doing a meego conference and neither intels nor nokias optinions aren't included? Let's make small difference. I don't say that I represent Nokias official opinion but as Forum Nokia employee, our task is help developers to develop for Nokia devices. I think that old Maemo Summit organization were better, it had community day for community presentations and then Nokia day. Same way could be in MeeGo conference that there is one Founders day with Nokia and Intel tracks and then community day. I hoped that Forum Nokia could be represented in MeeGo conference but .. Really this all feels so much undone and unsynchronized that i have my doubts that the result will be a usable plattform. Intel sticks to gtk, nokia abandons hildon and switches to qt, but re-invents the entire UX and then finds out that the new UX won't work on their old symbian plattform. Let's make things little bit more clear. - As far as I know, Intel is also using Qt / Qt Quick in MeeGo - When we abandoned Hildon, it was already known that new generation UI toolkit was needed but it could not be created instantly - There was three evolution UX steps, first Maemo versions had mostly desktop UI in pocket size. Maemo5 was first device designed solely to be used with finger and it used all tricks to make it with legacy desktop toolkit ( GTK+/Hildon or Maemo5 QWidgets ) and then third evolution step full UI based on animated graphics. - The UX evolution was mandatory to survive in competition, we could not compete against Android and iPhone with toolkits that have architectural roots in 1984. Even code is not same than 1984, the UI paradigm, UX are same. Designing toolkit based on desktop paradigm leaded architecture that could not upscale as modern mobile UX. - There was timing issue, we did not have Qml ready when we started Harmattan, MeeGoTouch was QGraphicsView based but programmed in C++ - Now, when we have Qml/Qt Quick we can go full declarative UI, there is no difference in end user UX but much more flexible programming API that allows easy support for Symbian,MeeGo,Desktop and even future UX. Qt Quick is based on same QGraphicsView that were used in MTF but new more flexible way to program it. I e.g. have started to use mtf and qtmobilty in pure c++. I now have to google a little bit to find out if that approach is already outdated and to understand what qtquick and qml really means for my app. I understand confusion and we have tried our best to give open and early access to new technology coming. The good thing is that when you have already moved to Qt and new QGraphicsview based toolkit, it is very easy to switch Qml. Main reason why I did this my Ar-Drone application was to make one of first Qt Quick/Components showcase application. As technical person, I need to know what i write or as said, eat own dog food. In this Ar-Drone, I reused some of my old QGraphicsWidget based UI elements and in practice, just few lines of modification were needed to be able use them from Qml. Links, blog:http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/blog/kate-alholas-forum-nokia-blog/2010/12/23/ar-drone-with-meego Git in garage https://garage.maemo.org/scm/?group_id=1999 This AR-Drone won't be our last example application, our Forum Nokia MeeGo staff, Kate, Ville, Antonio and Attila, we are all working to make your life as Nokia MeeGo developer easier and we will publish more demo apps, more blogs, we will arrange training etc. Kate ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] What are the advantages of developing QT apps without libmeegotouch over MTF enabled application?
On 12/28/2010 9:21 PM, Ville M. Vainio wrote: 2010/12/28 Till Harbaum / Listsli...@harbaum.org: Am Dienstag 28 Dezember 2010 schrieb Ville M. Vainio: QWidgets were not good enough for anybody You are talking about these QWidgets that several tutorials on the meego conference were about? Are you really wondering why developers are confused and loosing confidence in all this? Do you really wonder why so many people are hesitant to actually start doing things because they are expecting you to change your mind again, soon? 6 months ago, any sane developer would be confused because the UI technology roadmap for third party developers was confidential. Backend stuff like Qt Mobility was openly communicated, but UI technology was not. Right now, though, everything should be crystal clear: it's all about Qt Quick, and the usual Qt C++ technologies on the back end. There are no secret deprecation/obsolescence plans on the UI layer that have not been openly communicated. Even the QSceneGraph stuff (something Nokia could have as well kept as secret research project) is out there on public blogs. If someone is *still* confused, do let us know and we can make it more explicit in the future. I thought it was more than clear , it s written in the first page of Meego sdk1.1 the sample located here http://meego.gitorious.org/meegotouch/libmeegotouch/trees/master/examples + the power of qt graphical view enable all possibilities and allow to implements superb custom widget depending your need. i was looking for an easy way to do it six month ago by using the qml scripting but get stuck with binding the model properly.In the end i am back to c++ as it is more easy for me and allow to use by a more readable manner the code. It enable to use proper UI design pattern without having to put reference of the model in the view witch is wrong from my point of view.Cocoa design pattern(MVP as well ) are good also and fit QT quite well... Best regards, david what else ? ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
