Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hello Adam, All, You're insinuating a heck of a lot with phrases like Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about it and is unconstitutional. I've already clearly explained why the 1906 Antiquities Act *might* logically be altered to accommodate for other groups of objects. It shouldn't matter whether they choose to modify that set of rules versus making an entirely new rule(s). Calling it twisting is just misleading. I address this in my last email, which you apparently replied to without reading. Or saying anything, really. The rest of what you say seems baseless to someone who knows nothing about which bureaucrat you're making these accusations, or what his or her apparently sinister goals are. Or how/why these new rules somehow disagree with the constitution. As for your eight year old -- even children who inadvertently find their parents' drugs in their coat pockets aren't prosecuted. http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/09/28/sacramento-man-arrested-after-6-year-old-child-brings-meth-to-school/ You're being a little too dramatic for my taste. If you adhere to the notion that meteorites belong to whoever's land they're found on, I don't think you can really blame the BLM for keeping track of *their* meteorites. This all rings too much of the recent occupation of some of Berkeley's agricultural land. http://www.dailycal.org/2012/05/13/gill-tract-occupiers-disregard-democratic-process/ Just as technically state-owned (UC) land cannot be appropriated by citizens, public property is not inherently yours for the taking. You should read my last email. It really does address the antiquities aspect of things. And if people are indeed making their livings by collecting BLM resourceswell, why not complain about hunting permits, mining permits, or anything else like that? If you're selling meteorites from BLM land, it means that you're making money from finding them. Most such things require permits. It does seem inconvenient to me, so I can understand wanting to avoid having to abide by the new rules, but taking it this far just seemsa bit much. I've still yet to see a reason that I as a recreational meteorite hunter should care about these laws. Apparently the limit is 10 lbs per year, not 25. But how much Franconia do you really want? Jason From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:53 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com You have heard the saying give an inch and they will take a mile Richard Norton tried to warn anybody who would listen a decade ago. Meteorites are no more antiques than the rocks in my back yard. Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about it and is unconstitutional. The word meteorite couldn't even be found in a BLM officer's manual a mere year ago. Now this has all changed. The first 8-year old kid that picks up 10.01 pound meteorite will now be considered a criminal. Freedom isn't for free, Adam - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Hello All, I'd like to point out a few things: As an active meteorite hunter/collector, the proposed regulations do not affect me. These new rules primarily affect the commercial interest in meteorite hunting -- those people who regularly hunt on public land and sell their finds. A precious few people publish any information on their more 'important' finds. It often takes years for such information to reach the public, if it does at all. Most of the single-specimen 25+ lb stones found on BLM land in the past two decades have been kept secret and out of the public sphere of knowledge. I know of a few such stones, and have no doubt that there are more. They haven't been submitted for analysis, and you can't find photos online. Not for fear of the government claiming them, but because the finders don't want the attention...or competition in the field. Sonny Clary is one of the very few people I know who publishes that kind of information. And now his finds are being touted as examples of why private meteorite hunters are such a boon for science, despite the fact that he is a very big exception when compared to the rest of us Southwest hunters. [Or maybe you think that no one else is finding large meteorites? Seems unlikely, doesn't it?] That said, such a law won't change this practice of keeping important* finds secret, so I'm still not seeing the point of supporting either side. *Perhaps large (25 lbs) isn't synonymous with importance. Seems like a qualitative judgement to me. Granted, we amateur hunters find meteorites. But, as a group, our primary interest isn't the advancement of
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hi Jason, The BLM's land?!?!?! Would you explain to me how _they_ acquired such real property? How they maintain it? How they staff their offices? How their employees go about eating? I'm clearly out of the loop - I was kinda under the impression that the group We assigned to manage land couldn't actually _own_ any land since buying, maintaining, staffing, enforcing, [...], it would require your money, Adam's money, and my money. I know I didn't authorize their actions. I suspect Adam didn't authorize their actions. So now we need a disclosure of precisely who did, and precisely what public hearings in the interest of the public to which they are SERVANTS decided this would be the case. And that's the ultimate point: The BLM doesn't OWN _any_ land. We The People can boot the entire lot of their leech-like and utterly worthless hineys out to the street any time we decide to defund them. Along with the rest of our alleged masters who exist only to serve us. Please don't fall into the trap of believing our government can own diddly-squat - that's the root of the issue here - they've overstepped the authority that WE have given them and need to be reminded of such. Many of the People seem to have also forgotten who actually runs this joint. They need to be reminded of who the masters actually are. Warmest Regards, --- Jodie Monday, December 3, 2012, 12:38:53 AM, you wrote: Hello Adam, All, You're insinuating a heck of a lot with phrases like Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about it and is unconstitutional. I've already clearly explained why the 1906 Antiquities Act *might* logically be altered to accommodate for other groups of objects. It shouldn't matter whether they choose to modify that set of rules versus making an entirely new rule(s). Calling it twisting is just misleading. I address this in my last email, which you apparently replied to without reading. Or saying anything, really. The rest of what you say seems baseless to someone who knows nothing about which bureaucrat you're making these accusations, or what his or her apparently sinister goals are. Or how/why these new rules somehow disagree with the constitution. As for your eight year old -- even children who inadvertently find their parents' drugs in their coat pockets aren't prosecuted. http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/09/28/sacramento-man-arrested-after-6-year-old-child-brings-meth-to-school/ You're being a little too dramatic for my taste. If you adhere to the notion that meteorites belong to whoever's land they're found on, I don't think you can really blame the BLM for keeping track of *their* meteorites. This all rings too much of the recent occupation of some of Berkeley's agricultural land. http://www.dailycal.org/2012/05/13/gill-tract-occupiers-disregard-democratic-process/ Just as technically state-owned (UC) land cannot be appropriated by citizens, public property is not inherently yours for the taking. You should read my last email. It really does address the antiquities aspect of things. And if people are indeed making their livings by collecting BLM resourceswell, why not complain about hunting permits, mining permits, or anything else like that? If you're selling meteorites from BLM land, it means that you're making money from finding them. Most such things require permits. It does seem inconvenient to me, so I can understand wanting to avoid having to abide by the new rules, but taking it this far just seemsa bit much. I've still yet to see a reason that I as a recreational meteorite hunter should care about these laws. Apparently the limit is 10 lbs per year, not 25. But how much Franconia do you really want? Jason From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:53 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com You have heard the saying give an inch and they will take a mile Richard Norton tried to warn anybody who would listen a decade ago. Meteorites are no more antiques than the rocks in my back yard. Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about it and is unconstitutional. The word meteorite couldn't even be found in a BLM officer's manual a mere year ago. Now this has all changed. The first 8-year old kid that picks up 10.01 pound meteorite will now be considered a criminal. Freedom isn't for free, Adam - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Hello All, I'd like to point out a few things: As an active meteorite hunter/collector, the proposed regulations do not affect me. These new rules primarily affect the commercial interest in
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hello Jodie, You're nit-picking terminology more than anything else. They may not own the land, but it's under their jurisdiction. A policeman may not own his sidearm, yet you being a citizen, are still not allowed to use his publicly owned property. He has jurisdiction over it. The above analogy is funky because the sidearm serves a purpose for the policeman, whereas the meteorite simply holds scientific and monetary value. But when I see spectacular meteorites like the 300 pound main mass of Glorietta Mountain diced and sold for personal profit, I believe that constitutes misuse of public property. And since we're talking about meteorites that belong to the public, my opinion is a valid one. Why do you think I included the references to the local Occupy the Farm idiots over here in Berkeley? They decided that UC-managed land was as good as theirs, and that they could do what they want with it. That's not how public property works. If it's owned by the federal government and managed by the BLM, the BLM gets to set the rules. You may not like the way that the BLM runs things, but the system was put in place by politicians we, the people, voted into positions of power. In this case, it sounds like many meteorite dealers have a special interest (e.g. meteorite hunting/selling) and care about policies that the BLM is enacting -- policies that the population at large does not care about. If the minority is loud enough, they might change things to the way they want them to be. If they can't manage that, well, this is a democracy. Our government may not own anything at all, but I'm glad that they have the power to manage large areas of land, because corporations and private citizens are not capable of responsibly keeping many areas of land -- and especially areas of natural interest -- safe *or* clean. We know that for a fact. And organizations like the BLM need money to do that. Since the permits mentioned in the BLM regulations are only necessary for those who will profit from exploiting resources on land managed by BLM land (selling meteorites), I see no problem with the regulations. What's a $100(?) permit compared with the sale value of ten pounds of meteorites (4,510 grams) from the American Southwest? Nothing. I'm all for smaller government and less bureaucracy, but all of this libertarian stuff is getting on my nerves. The BLM serves a purpose, and, as best I can tell, you're pissed off because of a few incompetent employees. That's not a good reason to simply forego any oversight on vast tracts of American land that would no doubt be abused immediately without oversight...and are abused, regardless, but to a lesser extent. I've spent more time in the desert than most, and know that much firsthand. If you want to reform the BLM, that's a whole different issue. Regards, Jason On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 1:17 AM, Jodie Reynolds spacero...@spaceballoon.org wrote: Hi Jason, The BLM's land?!?!?! Would you explain to me how _they_ acquired such real property? How they maintain it? How they staff their offices? How their employees go about eating? I'm clearly out of the loop - I was kinda under the impression that the group We assigned to manage land couldn't actually _own_ any land since buying, maintaining, staffing, enforcing, [...], it would require your money, Adam's money, and my money. I know I didn't authorize their actions. I suspect Adam didn't authorize their actions. So now we need a disclosure of precisely who did, and precisely what public hearings in the interest of the public to which they are SERVANTS decided this would be the case. And that's the ultimate point: The BLM doesn't OWN _any_ land. We The People can boot the entire lot of their leech-like and utterly worthless hineys out to the street any time we decide to defund them. Along with the rest of our alleged masters who exist only to serve us. Please don't fall into the trap of believing our government can own diddly-squat - that's the root of the issue here - they've overstepped the authority that WE have given them and need to be reminded of such. Many of the People seem to have also forgotten who actually runs this joint. They need to be reminded of who the masters actually are. Warmest Regards, --- Jodie Monday, December 3, 2012, 12:38:53 AM, you wrote: Hello Adam, All, You're insinuating a heck of a lot with phrases like Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about it and is unconstitutional. I've already clearly explained why the 1906 Antiquities Act *might* logically be altered to accommodate for other groups of objects. It shouldn't matter whether they choose to modify that set of rules versus making an entirely new rule(s). Calling it twisting is just misleading. I address this in my last email, which you apparently replied to without reading. Or saying anything, really. The rest of what you say
[meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
Today's Meteorite Picture of the Day: NWA 801 Contributed by: Stephan Kambach http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpod.asp __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
In the US there tends to be an urban rural split in the way we view government. People in urban areas tend to see the government as protecting individuals rights. The government will stop my neighbor from playing loud music at night, it will make that jerk down the street pick up after his dog, it will tow the car that is blocking my garage and it will close the park at night to reduce crime. Whereas people from rural areas are more likely to view the government as taking away their rights. Property rights are under the most government pressure in rural areas the government may prevent people from cutting down their own trees, limit where you can graze your cattle or forbid bid you from building a wind turbine. Each of these perspectives is valid and no amount of debate is likely to changesomeones views. One thing about the BLM regulations (not laws) is the prohibition on the sales of meteorites found on BLM lands. That prohibition will just create a black market for these meteorites that will keep them out of the hands of science. I believe that a free market for meteorites encourages people to hunt for meteorites. The more people hunting the more meteorites found. The more meteorites found the more meteorites that can be studied by scientists. So please BLM, use the permitting process to make it easy for commercial hunters to collect meteorites on BLM managed land. Perhaps the terms of the permit could be something along the lines of a $100 onetime fee that would allow the hunter to hunt on BLM managed land. If the permits require environmental impact statements and/or large fees none will be sought or issued. Peter -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of jason utas Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 5:25 AM To: Meteorite-list Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Hello Jodie, You're nit-picking terminology more than anything else. They may not own the land, but it's under their jurisdiction. A policeman may not own his sidearm, yet you being a citizen, are still not allowed to use his publicly owned property. He has jurisdiction over it. The above analogy is funky because the sidearm serves a purpose for the policeman, whereas the meteorite simply holds scientific and monetary value. But when I see spectacular meteorites like the 300 pound main mass of Glorietta Mountain diced and sold for personal profit, I believe that constitutes misuse of public property. And since we're talking about meteorites that belong to the public, my opinion is a valid one. Why do you think I included the references to the local Occupy the Farm idiots over here in Berkeley? They decided that UC-managed land was as good as theirs, and that they could do what they want with it. That's not how public property works. If it's owned by the federal government and managed by the BLM, the BLM gets to set the rules. You may not like the way that the BLM runs things, but the system was put in place by politicians we, the people, voted into positions of power. In this case, it sounds like many meteorite dealers have a special interest (e.g. meteorite hunting/selling) and care about policies that the BLM is enacting -- policies that the population at large does not care about. If the minority is loud enough, they might change things to the way they want them to be. If they can't manage that, well, this is a democracy. Our government may not own anything at all, but I'm glad that they have the power to manage large areas of land, because corporations and private citizens are not capable of responsibly keeping many areas of land -- and especially areas of natural interest -- safe *or* clean. We know that for a fact. And organizations like the BLM need money to do that. Since the permits mentioned in the BLM regulations are only necessary for those who will profit from exploiting resources on land managed by BLM land (selling meteorites), I see no problem with the regulations. What's a $100(?) permit compared with the sale value of ten pounds of meteorites (4,510 grams) from the American Southwest? Nothing. I'm all for smaller government and less bureaucracy, but all of this libertarian stuff is getting on my nerves. The BLM serves a purpose, and, as best I can tell, you're pissed off because of a few incompetent employees. That's not a good reason to simply forego any oversight on vast tracts of American land that would no doubt be abused immediately without oversight...and are abused, regardless, but to a lesser extent. I've spent more time in the desert than most, and know that much firsthand. If you want to reform the BLM, that's a whole different issue. Regards, Jason On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 1:17 AM, Jodie Reynolds spacero...@spaceballoon.org wrote: Hi Jason, The
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
I have never sold a single piece I have found on federal land and this is not what it is about for me. I do not see how I am being overly dramatic when our rights are being trampled by people who watch too much television, believe everything they read on the net and are clueless. You have much to learn if you think the government bureaucrats are out to protect you. It is all about careers, power and money for those who push pencils behind a desk. It is rare these days to find a bureaucrat that actually wants to serve his base without alternative motives. A very few regulations are a good thing but not when they are crammed down your throat by an uninformed bureaucrat who has not even vetted the real issues, Adam. - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 12:38 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Hello Adam, All, You're insinuating a heck of a lot with phrases like Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about it and is unconstitutional. I've already clearly explained why the 1906 Antiquities Act *might* logically be altered to accommodate for other groups of objects. It shouldn't matter whether they choose to modify that set of rules versus making an entirely new rule(s). Calling it twisting is just misleading. I address this in my last email, which you apparently replied to without reading. Or saying anything, really. The rest of what you say seems baseless to someone who knows nothing about which bureaucrat you're making these accusations, or what his or her apparently sinister goals are. Or how/why these new rules somehow disagree with the constitution. As for your eight year old -- even children who inadvertently find their parents' drugs in their coat pockets aren't prosecuted. http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/09/28/sacramento-man-arrested-after-6-year-old-child-brings-meth-to-school/ You're being a little too dramatic for my taste. If you adhere to the notion that meteorites belong to whoever's land they're found on, I don't think you can really blame the BLM for keeping track of *their* meteorites. This all rings too much of the recent occupation of some of Berkeley's agricultural land. http://www.dailycal.org/2012/05/13/gill-tract-occupiers-disregard-democratic-process/ Just as technically state-owned (UC) land cannot be appropriated by citizens, public property is not inherently yours for the taking. You should read my last email. It really does address the antiquities aspect of things. And if people are indeed making their livings by collecting BLM resourceswell, why not complain about hunting permits, mining permits, or anything else like that? If you're selling meteorites from BLM land, it means that you're making money from finding them. Most such things require permits. It does seem inconvenient to me, so I can understand wanting to avoid having to abide by the new rules, but taking it this far just seemsa bit much. I've still yet to see a reason that I as a recreational meteorite hunter should care about these laws. Apparently the limit is 10 lbs per year, not 25. But how much Franconia do you really want? Jason From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:53 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com You have heard the saying give an inch and they will take a mile Richard Norton tried to warn anybody who would listen a decade ago. Meteorites are no more antiques than the rocks in my back yard. Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about it and is unconstitutional. The word meteorite couldn't even be found in a BLM officer's manual a mere year ago. Now this has all changed. The first 8-year old kid that picks up 10.01 pound meteorite will now be considered a criminal. Freedom isn't for free, Adam - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Hello All, I'd like to point out a few things: As an active meteorite hunter/collector, the proposed regulations do not affect me. These new rules primarily affect the commercial interest in meteorite hunting -- those people who regularly hunt on public land and sell their finds. A precious few people publish any information on their more 'important' finds. It often takes years for such information to reach the public, if it does at all. Most of the single-specimen 25+ lb stones found on BLM land in the past two decades have been kept secret and out of the public sphere of knowledge. I know of a few such stones, and have no doubt that there are
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hi Jason, I see a logical inconsistency in your argumentation. On the one hand you mourn that due to the activities of commercially oriented hunters and dealers, the scientific process and the institutional collecting would be deprived of newly found meteoritic material, and in the next break you concede, that meteoritic material wouldn't be found at all, if not the commercial oriented people would search for it. Also your opinion, that in 1906 the meteoritical world regarding the access of the material would have been different is not backed historically. How do you think, how Smithssonian, the Field musem, the ASU (and London, Vienna, Berlin, Paris) assembled their collections, the basics of all meteoritical scientific works? They purchased that material, that was the most efficient and fruitful way to get meteorites and a matter of course also in the 19.th century. Some of the annals of these museums e.g. those of Vienna you can find completely digitalized on web. There you can find the yearly reports, which meteorites were acquired, from whom and at which prices, same one should find in the archives of any museum. A large problem is in my eyes, that if a state decides to annex all meteorites and to ban any hunting or commercial use of meteorites, that then those deciding to do so, have no alternative way to offer, how the institutions and universities shall retrieve their meteorites then in future. If we think that practically, we don't have to discuss about the ideology behind, whether it is legitimate for a state or for a scientific institution to override the normal civil rights of ownership of their citizens (and that special-laws are for a jurist certainly a remarkable exception - note that btw. in more countries, which are democracies and states of law special meteorite legislation is in place, than in totalitarian states like China, former East-Germany, Russia ect.). Where are the alternatives? We have the very costs-intensive Antarctic programs, no one can have objections against that, science costs. Though we can't blind out, that the commercially used meteorites are easier accessible for the scientist, offer a larger variety and quantity and are with a gigantic factor cheaper. And the only other meteorite recovery program is that of the Suisse universities in cooperation with Oman, a couple of searchers for a few weeks per year. And there is the dilemma, in general most universities have neither the personnel nor the funding to equip and to carry out own substantial and permanent search activities. Commercial dealers and hunters are not to blame for the underfunding of the university departments, as they are not part of these public institutions. So, those champions of the cause, to eliminate commercialism from meteoritics, fail to present, how the scientists shall in future get their new meteorites. For me, such legislation is a short-circuit. Also it is the question, if soberly regarded the past, hence the number and kind of finds, the effective costs for the labs and institiutes, whether such laws are necessary at all. Simple example - Slovakia - Lenarto, Groß-Divina, Magura, Nagy-Borové, Rumanová - where ended up the main masses? In the Slovak National collection. Therefore, why to introduce a meteorite law? Obviously there it was never the case, that commercialism hindered national science to get the Slovak meteorites. Take Poland, there the recent official meteorite retrieving action dates back more than 50 years. Meteorite research in our decade on universities doesn't take place there, all the long meteoritical tradition there is maintained at 98% by private collectors and dealers. Is therefore really an export restriction necessary, where is the public interest? Please, can you tell me, why I shouldn't use Australia as an example anymore? For Nick I recommend by the way, to paint simply a graph of the published new finds in Australia per year from the Bulletins. Nothing is so striking for the eye. Of course you can discuss, what the reasons all could be, that the finds - and I knowingly say, the published finds - because that is the indicator, whether a meteorite really did reach science took such a breaking-down, that Australia had suddenly nowadays not more finds than in the 1850s. And if you reflect this numbers with the total numbers of finds before. Keeping in mind, that in other countries, like USA in the recent decade and a little before, the number of finds were steeply climbing (not to mention the desert). Hence no matter, which opinion one has - the situation is for all not satisfying at all, and one can't deny, that the Australian laws of the 1970s and of the 1980s, yielded no improvement for the Australian meteorite science. But seemed to be rather a step backwards. Maybe also for the meteoricists too, if I remember, that now for 20 years 300 Australian OCs are said to be still unclassified lying in Perth. Obviously, there is a lack of scientific
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Adam...with all due respect... You can't substantiate a single thing you say, but insist that I'm the gullible one. I just told you how a system like that might operate based off of logic and the structure of bureaucracies like the ones I have to work with/against every day here at a huge public school. This isn't rubbish someone told me. It's the nature of the beast when misguided attempts at efficiency are often the name of the game. Sinister motives almost never come into play. Such decisions are often the work of people who have worked within the bureaucracy for twenty years, barely know how to use their computer, and understand that the only way they'll be able to regulate the increasing commercialization of meteorites found on public land isn't by proposing what might be seen as a 'radical' new law, but rather by amending an existing one. And unless you can offer some theory as to why or how a politician might benefit from these new rules, it's really weird to insist upon it. You're making huge negative generalizations -- and making it sound like something of a conspiracy theory -- with nothing but personal bias to back it up. Seems to me that you'd find any regulation not to your liking crammed down your throat. We live in a democracy, though. It happens. I'm paying taxes for plenty of things I think are worthless, many of which I voted against. C'est la vie. Re: Peter One thing about the BLM regulations (not laws) is the prohibition on the sales of meteorites found on BLM lands. That prohibition will just create a black market for these meteorites that will keep them out of the hands of science. Doubt it. The only meteorites from BLM land that are commonly sold are Franconia, Gold Basin, etc. It's the odd other meteorite that makes its way to the market. New falls are really what's at risk here -- and possibly finds that weigh more than 10 lbs. For most dealers, though, I can't see this as being an issue. Since most stones are already being sold privately, it doesn't matter. If worst came to worst, a finder could claim that they purchased or were given a given stone in the field, and they would no longer be subject to the BLM regulations that apply to finders. In short, there's no need for the development of a black market, even if people wish to be unscrupulous. I think these new laws are silly, but that's about it. I have the feeling that others are using such strong language because they do fear later amendments that aren't so easy to get around, but...I'll fight that battle if and/or when it arises. I believe that a “free market” for meteorites encourages people to hunt for meteorites. Perhaps. Most hunters in the Southwest seem to hold onto their finds, by and large, but many do not. That said, this does not change the free-market nature of meteorites in the US. If people follow the rules, it will simply attach a nominal fee to hunting on BLM land (and, theoretically, one could hold off on getting a permit until after finding something in order to guarantee no unnecessary loss of fees). The more people hunting the more meteorites found. The more meteorites found the more meteorites that can be studied by scientists. Right, but conjecturing that fewer meteorites will be found with the new regulations seems odd to me. I'd be amazed to hear of anyone on the list planning to hunt less based on the new regulations. Perhaps the terms of the permit could be something along the lines of a $100 onetime fee that would allow the hunter to hunt on BLM managed land. If the permits require environmental impact statements and/or large fees none will be sought or issued. Of course. I'm guessing the ease of getting a permit will be along the lines of a hunting permit, but there's really no way to know that without trying to get one. Since the selling permit wouldn't raise the collection limit or allow industrial hunting equipment, it seems unlikely that they would required EOR-type material. The only likely disadvantage I see is that hunters with a commercial/meteorite vending permit will be more likely to have to pay taxes on their sales...if they weren't already doing so. Jason From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Date: Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 6:37 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com I have never sold a single piece I have found on federal land and this is not what it is about for me. I do not see how I am being overly dramatic when our rights are being trampled by people who watch too much television, believe everything they read on the net and are clueless. You have much to learn if you think the government bureaucrats are out to protect you. It is all about careers, power and money for those who push pencils behind a desk. It is rare these days to find a bureaucrat that actually wants to serve his base without alternative motives. A very few regulations are a good
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Jason, I will let you have the last word after this. I believe in reality, not conspiracies. The reality is that clueless people are controlling ours and future generations' destinies and freedoms. You will learn this valuable lesson later in life when everything you do is under the control of somebody else. Our founding fathers would be appalled at what is going on these days, Adam - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Adam...with all due respect... You can't substantiate a single thing you say, but insist that I'm the gullible one. I just told you how a system like that might operate based off of logic and the structure of bureaucracies like the ones I have to work with/against every day here at a huge public school. This isn't rubbish someone told me. It's the nature of the beast when misguided attempts at efficiency are often the name of the game. Sinister motives almost never come into play. Such decisions are often the work of people who have worked within the bureaucracy for twenty years, barely know how to use their computer, and understand that the only way they'll be able to regulate the increasing commercialization of meteorites found on public land isn't by proposing what might be seen as a 'radical' new law, but rather by amending an existing one. And unless you can offer some theory as to why or how a politician might benefit from these new rules, it's really weird to insist upon it. You're making huge negative generalizations -- and making it sound like something of a conspiracy theory -- with nothing but personal bias to back it up. Seems to me that you'd find any regulation not to your liking crammed down your throat. We live in a democracy, though. It happens. I'm paying taxes for plenty of things I think are worthless, many of which I voted against. C'est la vie. Re: Peter One thing about the BLM regulations (not laws) is the prohibition on the sales of meteorites found on BLM lands. That prohibition will just create a black market for these meteorites that will keep them out of the hands of science. Doubt it. The only meteorites from BLM land that are commonly sold are Franconia, Gold Basin, etc. It's the odd other meteorite that makes its way to the market. New falls are really what's at risk here -- and possibly finds that weigh more than 10 lbs. For most dealers, though, I can't see this as being an issue. Since most stones are already being sold privately, it doesn't matter. If worst came to worst, a finder could claim that they purchased or were given a given stone in the field, and they would no longer be subject to the BLM regulations that apply to finders. In short, there's no need for the development of a black market, even if people wish to be unscrupulous. I think these new laws are silly, but that's about it. I have the feeling that others are using such strong language because they do fear later amendments that aren't so easy to get around, but...I'll fight that battle if and/or when it arises. I believe that a “free market” for meteorites encourages people to hunt for meteorites. Perhaps. Most hunters in the Southwest seem to hold onto their finds, by and large, but many do not. That said, this does not change the free-market nature of meteorites in the US. If people follow the rules, it will simply attach a nominal fee to hunting on BLM land (and, theoretically, one could hold off on getting a permit until after finding something in order to guarantee no unnecessary loss of fees). The more people hunting the more meteorites found. The more meteorites found the more meteorites that can be studied by scientists. Right, but conjecturing that fewer meteorites will be found with the new regulations seems odd to me. I'd be amazed to hear of anyone on the list planning to hunt less based on the new regulations. Perhaps the terms of the permit could be something along the lines of a $100 onetime fee that would allow the hunter to hunt on BLM managed land. If the permits require environmental impact statements and/or large fees none will be sought or issued. Of course. I'm guessing the ease of getting a permit will be along the lines of a hunting permit, but there's really no way to know that without trying to get one. Since the selling permit wouldn't raise the collection limit or allow industrial hunting equipment, it seems unlikely that they would required EOR-type material. The only likely disadvantage I see is that hunters with a commercial/meteorite vending permit will be more likely to have to pay taxes on their sales...if they weren't already doing so. Jason From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Date: Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 6:37 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy To: Adam
[meteorite-list] Ad - Holbrook 100 Year Medal - Just in Time for Christmas
Very cool, Rob. Paul Swartz __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
But Jason, can't you see the comedy, the incredible funniness? and understand that the only way they'll be able to regulate the increasing commercialization of meteorites found on public land That's the point! Nobody of human reason, working in administration or elsewhere, would ever get the idea, that something so far-fetched and so exotic, that the vast majority of people has no clue, that that at all exists, would need a legal regulation. It's an exceptional fun! Much better than e.g. here in EU, where communities in the plains with no hill higher than 20 feet have to implement extensive regulations for the erection and operation of teleferics and ski-lifts. Cause these meteorite laws are selfmade and homegrown, And often, hihihi, in countries, which have only one single meteorite or not more than 5 in 1000 years! It seems, that those clerks involved in inventing such laws are either satirists or maybe somewhat under-worked. And if, where the urge is definitely higher, they would introduce - of course in the same honorable intention - the duty by law, that we have to wear from now on outside helmets with arrester, I guess in public and media they would be ridiculed. Nevertheless in Germany it happens roughly 150 times more often, that a person is killed by lightning stroke, than a meteorite is found. (And in many countries with existing meteorite laws, the ratio is similar). That's the beef, when we are talking about meteorites and laws, Don't forget that! And normally, any meteorite law would be similarly seriously discussed, like the meteorite bill in England's House of Lords once. Bruharhar, you remember Thuathe? Lesotho has also a meteorite law! No worries, hunting, owning, collecting, exporting that all is allowed and needs no permits, But... But.. ihihih if you bend over to pick up a meteorite, You need before a written testimony of an environmental compatibility assessment. So, I assume, in most countries with meteorite laws, the officers will react indignantly, if you molest them with your meteoritical concerns and they will tell you: get out of my office with your piffling stones, we have more important things to care for!! Greetings from Kafka. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von jason utas Gesendet: Montag, 3. Dezember 2012 16:07 An: Meteorite-list Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Adam...with all due respect... You can't substantiate a single thing you say, but insist that I'm the gullible one. I just told you how a system like that might operate based off of logic and the structure of bureaucracies like the ones I have to work with/against every day here at a huge public school. This isn't rubbish someone told me. It's the nature of the beast when misguided attempts at efficiency are often the name of the game. Sinister motives almost never come into play. Such decisions are often the work of people who have worked within the bureaucracy for twenty years, barely know how to use their computer, and understand that the only way they'll be able to regulate the increasing commercialization of meteorites found on public land isn't by proposing what might be seen as a 'radical' new law, but rather by amending an existing one. And unless you can offer some theory as to why or how a politician might benefit from these new rules, it's really weird to insist upon it. You're making huge negative generalizations -- and making it sound like something of a conspiracy theory -- with nothing but personal bias to back it up. Seems to me that you'd find any regulation not to your liking crammed down your throat. We live in a democracy, though. It happens. I'm paying taxes for plenty of things I think are worthless, many of which I voted against. C'est la vie. Re: Peter One thing about the BLM regulations (not laws) is the prohibition on the sales of meteorites found on BLM lands. That prohibition will just create a black market for these meteorites that will keep them out of the hands of science. Doubt it. The only meteorites from BLM land that are commonly sold are Franconia, Gold Basin, etc. It's the odd other meteorite that makes its way to the market. New falls are really what's at risk here -- and possibly finds that weigh more than 10 lbs. For most dealers, though, I can't see this as being an issue. Since most stones are already being sold privately, it doesn't matter. If worst came to worst, a finder could claim that they purchased or were given a given stone in the field, and they would no longer be subject to the BLM regulations that apply to finders. In short, there's no need for the development of a black market, even if people wish to be unscrupulous. I think these new laws are silly, but that's about it. I have the feeling that others are using such strong language because they do fear later
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Every inch of BLM land and all of America was stolen from native American Indians - the true owners of this land. Not the government, not some flag-waving redneck whose ancestors butchered, lied, and raped their way into ownership of it. Gloss over it with history books all you want, but this belly-aching about our land being usurped by the government sounds awfully familiar to someone with Indian ancestry. BLM stole your land? Here's some smallpox-infected blankets to wipe your tears with. I don't like these new BLM regulations either. I think it's a power-grab. I think if it is enforced strictly, it will hurt science and all meteorite recovery. But get off this rigtheous nonsense about the land belonging to the people - it's nonsense. We own it because we stole it by force. How is that any different than what the BLM is trying to do now? Feel violated? Imagine. Ask an Indian about this issue, if you can find one. Best regards and happy hunting, MikeG -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - On 12/3/12, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: Jason, I will let you have the last word after this. I believe in reality, not conspiracies. The reality is that clueless people are controlling ours and future generations' destinies and freedoms. You will learn this valuable lesson later in life when everything you do is under the control of somebody else. Our founding fathers would be appalled at what is going on these days, Adam - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Adam...with all due respect... You can't substantiate a single thing you say, but insist that I'm the gullible one. I just told you how a system like that might operate based off of logic and the structure of bureaucracies like the ones I have to work with/against every day here at a huge public school. This isn't rubbish someone told me. It's the nature of the beast when misguided attempts at efficiency are often the name of the game. Sinister motives almost never come into play. Such decisions are often the work of people who have worked within the bureaucracy for twenty years, barely know how to use their computer, and understand that the only way they'll be able to regulate the increasing commercialization of meteorites found on public land isn't by proposing what might be seen as a 'radical' new law, but rather by amending an existing one. And unless you can offer some theory as to why or how a politician might benefit from these new rules, it's really weird to insist upon it. You're making huge negative generalizations -- and making it sound like something of a conspiracy theory -- with nothing but personal bias to back it up. Seems to me that you'd find any regulation not to your liking crammed down your throat. We live in a democracy, though. It happens. I'm paying taxes for plenty of things I think are worthless, many of which I voted against. C'est la vie. Re: Peter One thing about the BLM regulations (not laws) is the prohibition on the sales of meteorites found on BLM lands. That prohibition will just create a black market for these meteorites that will keep them out of the hands of science. Doubt it. The only meteorites from BLM land that are commonly sold are Franconia, Gold Basin, etc. It's the odd other meteorite that makes its way to the market. New falls are really what's at risk here -- and possibly finds that weigh more than 10 lbs. For most dealers, though, I can't see this as being an issue. Since most stones are already being sold privately, it doesn't matter. If worst came to worst, a finder could claim that they purchased or were given a given stone in the field, and they would no longer be subject to the BLM regulations that apply to finders. In short, there's no need for the development of a black market, even if people wish to be unscrupulous. I think these new laws are silly, but that's about it. I have the feeling that others are using such strong language because they do fear later amendments that aren't so easy to get around, but...I'll fight that battle if and/or when it arises. I believe that a “free market” for meteorites encourages people to hunt for meteorites. Perhaps. Most hunters in the Southwest seem to hold onto their finds, by and large, but many do not. That said, this does not change the free-market nature of meteorites in the US. If people follow the rules, it will simply attach a nominal fee to
[meteorite-list] Bash and All
Apologies in advance if this was already announced, but I'm looking for info on the Birthday Bash and the Auction. Dates, times and locations please. Need to make my flight reservations... Thanks much, Anita __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Heritage/Legacy
Mike, My other half, Zann is 50% Cherokee so I hear ya! The other half Irish, a combination not to be messed with lightly although she is sweet most of the time. I feel very fortunate since she loves nature, rocks, hikes, field exploration and understands the importance of freedom. Adam - Original Message - From: MikeG meteoritem...@gmail.com To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Cc: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 8:18 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Every inch of BLM land and all of America was stolen from native American Indians - the true owners of this land. Not the government, not some flag-waving redneck whose ancestors butchered, lied, and raped their way into ownership of it. Gloss over it with history books all you want, but this belly-aching about our land being usurped by the government sounds awfully familiar to someone with Indian ancestry. BLM stole your land? Here's some smallpox-infected blankets to wipe your tears with. I don't like these new BLM regulations either. I think it's a power-grab. I think if it is enforced strictly, it will hurt science and all meteorite recovery. But get off this rigtheous nonsense about the land belonging to the people - it's nonsense. We own it because we stole it by force. How is that any different than what the BLM is trying to do now? Feel violated? Imagine. Ask an Indian about this issue, if you can find one. Best regards and happy hunting, MikeG -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - On 12/3/12, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: Jason, I will let you have the last word after this. I believe in reality, not conspiracies. The reality is that clueless people are controlling ours and future generations' destinies and freedoms. You will learn this valuable lesson later in life when everything you do is under the control of somebody else. Our founding fathers would be appalled at what is going on these days, Adam - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Adam...with all due respect... You can't substantiate a single thing you say, but insist that I'm the gullible one. I just told you how a system like that might operate based off of logic and the structure of bureaucracies like the ones I have to work with/against every day here at a huge public school. This isn't rubbish someone told me. It's the nature of the beast when misguided attempts at efficiency are often the name of the game. Sinister motives almost never come into play. Such decisions are often the work of people who have worked within the bureaucracy for twenty years, barely know how to use their computer, and understand that the only way they'll be able to regulate the increasing commercialization of meteorites found on public land isn't by proposing what might be seen as a 'radical' new law, but rather by amending an existing one. And unless you can offer some theory as to why or how a politician might benefit from these new rules, it's really weird to insist upon it. You're making huge negative generalizations -- and making it sound like something of a conspiracy theory -- with nothing but personal bias to back it up. Seems to me that you'd find any regulation not to your liking crammed down your throat. We live in a democracy, though. It happens. I'm paying taxes for plenty of things I think are worthless, many of which I voted against. C'est la vie. Re: Peter One thing about the BLM regulations (not laws) is the prohibition on the sales of meteorites found on BLM lands. That prohibition will just create a black market for these meteorites that will keep them out of the hands of science. Doubt it. The only meteorites from BLM land that are commonly sold are Franconia, Gold Basin, etc. It's the odd other meteorite that makes its way to the market. New falls are really what's at risk here -- and possibly finds that weigh more than 10 lbs. For most dealers, though, I can't see this as being an issue. Since most stones are already being sold privately, it doesn't matter. If worst came to worst, a finder could claim that they purchased or were given a given stone in the field, and they would no longer be subject to the BLM regulations that apply to finders. In short, there's no need for the development of a black market, even if people wish to be unscrupulous. I think these new laws are silly, but
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
When does this new policy go into effect? On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 7:53 PM, GREG LINDH gee...@msn.com wrote: Adam, This is an example of government bureaucracy doing what it does best. This is just the beginning. I'm not a hunter, but I'm affected because I buy from those of you who do the actual hunting. People here on The List *feel* this up close and personal, because they're directly affected. This kind of thing goes on all the time throughout our increasingly over regulated society. Remember, the bigger the government the smaller the citizen. The thing is, once the genie is out of the bottle, it's very hard, maybe impossible to put him back in. That's the nature of an over reaching government. Greg L. Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:00:05 -0800 From: raremeteori...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy (Thar she blows!)
Yep, were hard times then, so they were for meteorite hunters. Here Mike you see Tashtego, Starbuck, Captain Ahab and Ishmael hunting the White meteorite. http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1271/995914327_613befae01.jpg Watch out, what will happen! Here, Rob L. found that horrible testimony... be aware, that is really nothing for children-eyes: http://kuerzer.de/ahabmassacre The beast has bitten off Ahab's feet!! Back to legality.. The ownership can lead also to problematic juristic consequences. Liability. With Tunguska we had luck, arriving just a few hours later or earlier... and that was a relatively small impact, like it can happen all the time. Follow me... what would be the consequence, if something like Vredefort will happen today? South Africa would be pretty much swept from the map. Legally the Republic of South Africa is the owner of the impactor. Does the Republic have then to pay for the devastations it made? So not only physically, but also economically and for all times the Rep. of South Africa would be pulverized. Less dramatic: A Peekskill car in Western Australia - do I get a new car from the state? A Lorton house in Denmark, who pays the repair of the roof? My dead Llama on BML land, sniff...? Questions. Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD: Gem, Mineral, and Jewelry Show - Franklin, TN (Nashville) - December 8-9, 2012
Hey, List Members! This is just a quick note to remind you about the 32nd Annual Earth Treasures Show this weekend (Saturday and Sunday) in Franklin, TN (Nashville area)! This year's show location is the same as last year - 20 Minutes/Miles South of Nashville; I-65, Exit 61)! The members of the Mid-Tennessee Gem Mineral Society have done a lot of hard work preparing for another great show. Admission Admission: $4.00, Students (18 and under) $1.00, Under 12 Free with an Adult, Scout Youth in Uniform are Free! Free Parking! More information can be found at: http://www.mtgms.org/show.htm Over 30 dealers from across the country will be there for you viewing (and purchasing!) pleasure! The show will be held at Williamson County Ag Expo Park, 4215 Long Lane, Franklin, Tennessee This is 20 Minutes/Miles South of Nashville; I-65, Exit 61. Show hours are: Saturday, December 8, 9-6, and Sunday, December 9, 10-5. Please stop by our booth and say, Hi! We are hard to miss! We're the folks with the ORANGE table covers! We do have some new things (minerals, fossils and meteorites!) that will be displayed for sale for the first time at this show. Hey, you just might find something that you cannot live without! My billfold sure hopes so! My credit card company does likewise! But, in any case, stop by and say, Hi! Please ID yourself from the list! It is always neat to put faces with names. We hope to see you in Franklin this weekend! I'm sure you will have a great time! John Teague Volunteer Gems Melbourne, FL (formerly: Knoxville, Tennessee!) http://www.VolunteerGems.com http://www.mineral-auctions.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Mike Your description on the acquisition of the Americas is somewhat skewed. A very large number of Native Americans traveled from the middle East via the Baring strait, just shortly before the Rednecks arrived . Most of the Western United States was taken from the natives (ie. Zuni and Hopi) by these marauding invaders. Regardless, over one and a half million men and women have fallen in two world wars to give me and the native americans the right to wave our American Flag. Not a Swastika or Rising Sun flag. Rant on!! And have a Blessed Day! In the USA! Dennis Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 11:18:26 -0500 From: meteoritem...@gmail.com To: raremeteori...@yahoo.com CC: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Every inch of BLM land and all of America was stolen from native American Indians - the true owners of this land. Not the government, not some flag-waving redneck whose ancestors butchered, lied, and raped their way into ownership of it. Gloss over it with history books all you want, but this belly-aching about our land being usurped by the government sounds awfully familiar to someone with Indian ancestry. BLM stole your land? Here's some smallpox-infected blankets to wipe your tears with. I don't like these new BLM regulations either. I think it's a power-grab. I think if it is enforced strictly, it will hurt science and all meteorite recovery. But get off this rigtheous nonsense about the land belonging to the people - it's nonsense. We own it because we stole it by force. How is that any different than what the BLM is trying to do now? Feel violated? Imagine. Ask an Indian about this issue, if you can find one. Best regards and happy hunting, MikeG -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - On 12/3/12, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: Jason, I will let you have the last word after this. I believe in reality, not conspiracies. The reality is that clueless people are controlling ours and future generations' destinies and freedoms. You will learn this valuable lesson later in life when everything you do is under the control of somebody else. Our founding fathers would be appalled at what is going on these days, Adam - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Adam...with all due respect... You can't substantiate a single thing you say, but insist that I'm the gullible one. I just told you how a system like that might operate based off of logic and the structure of bureaucracies like the ones I have to work with/against every day here at a huge public school. This isn't rubbish someone told me. It's the nature of the beast when misguided attempts at efficiency are often the name of the game. Sinister motives almost never come into play. Such decisions are often the work of people who have worked within the bureaucracy for twenty years, barely know how to use their computer, and understand that the only way they'll be able to regulate the increasing commercialization of meteorites found on public land isn't by proposing what might be seen as a 'radical' new law, but rather by amending an existing one. And unless you can offer some theory as to why or how a politician might benefit from these new rules, it's really weird to insist upon it. You're making huge negative generalizations -- and making it sound like something of a conspiracy theory -- with nothing but personal bias to back it up. Seems to me that you'd find any regulation not to your liking crammed down your throat. We live in a democracy, though. It happens. I'm paying taxes for plenty of things I think are worthless, many of which I voted against. C'est la vie. Re: Peter One thing about the BLM regulations (not laws) is the prohibition on the sales of meteorites found on BLM lands. That prohibition will just create a black market for these meteorites that will keep them out of the hands of science. Doubt it. The only meteorites from BLM land that are commonly sold are Franconia, Gold Basin, etc. It's the odd other meteorite that makes its way to the market. New falls are really what's at risk here -- and possibly finds that weigh more than 10 lbs. For most dealers, though, I can't see this as being an issue. Since most stones are already being sold privately, it doesn't matter. If worst came to worst, a finder could
[meteorite-list] Curiosity Rover Fully Analyzes First Martian Soil Samples
Dec. 3, 2012 Dwayne Brown Headquarters, Washington 202-358-1726 dwayne.c.br...@nasa.gov Guy Webster Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. 818-354-6278 guy.webs...@jpl.nasa.gov Nancy Neal Jones Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. 301-286-0039 nancy.n.jo...@nasa.gov RELEASE: 12-415 NASA MARS ROVER FULLY ANALYZES FIRST MARTIAN SOIL SAMPLES PASADENA, Calif. -- NASA's Mars Curiosity rover has used its full array of instruments to analyze Martian soil for the first time, and found a complex chemistry within the Martian soil. Water and sulfur and chlorine-containing substances, among other ingredients, showed up in samples Curiosity's arm delivered to an analytical laboratory inside the rover. Detection of the substances during this early phase of the mission demonstrates the laboratory's capability to analyze diverse soil and rock samples over the next two years. Scientists also have been verifying the capabilities of the rover's instruments. The specific soil sample came from a drift of windblown dust and sand called Rocknest. The site lies in a relatively flat part of Gale Crater still miles away from the rover's main destination on the slope of a mountain called Mount Sharp. The rover's laboratory includes the Sample Analysis at Mars (SAM) suite and the Chemistry and Mineralogy (CheMin) instrument. SAM used three methods to analyze gases given off from the dusty sand when it was heated in a tiny oven. One class of substances SAM checks for is organic compounds -- carbon-containing chemicals that can be ingredients for life. We have no definitive detection of Martian organics at this point, but we will keep looking in the diverse environments of Gale Crater, said SAM Principal Investigator Paul Mahaffy of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md. Curiosity's APXS instrument and the Mars Hand Lens Imager (MAHLI) camera on the rover's arm confirmed Rocknest has chemical-element composition and textural appearance similar to sites visited by earlier NASA Mars rovers Pathfinder, Spirit and Opportunity. Curiosity's team selected Rocknest as the first scooping site because it has fine sand particles suited for scrubbing interior surfaces of the arm's sample-handling chambers. Sand was vibrated inside the chambers to remove residue from Earth. MAHLI close-up images of Rocknest show a dust-coated crust one or two sand grains thick, covering dark, finer sand. Active drifts on Mars look darker on the surface, said MAHLI Principal Investigator Ken Edgett of Malin Space Science Systems in San Diego.This is an older drift that has had time to be inactive, letting the crust form and dust accumulate on it. CheMin's examination of Rocknest samples found the composition is about half common volcanic minerals and half non-crystalline materials such as glass. SAM added information about ingredients present in much lower concentrations and about ratios of isotopes. Isotopes are different forms of the same element and can provide clues about environmental changes. The water seen by SAM does not mean the drift was wet. Water molecules bound to grains of sand or dust are not unusual, but the quantity seen was higher than anticipated. SAM tentatively identified the oxygen and chlorine compound perchlorate. This is a reactive chemical previously found in arctic Martian soil by NASA's Phoenix Lander. Reactions with other chemicals heated in SAM formed chlorinated methane compounds -- one-carbon organics that were detected by the instrument. The chlorine is of Martian origin, but it is possible the carbon may be of Earth origin, carried by Curiosity and detected by SAM's high sensitivity design. We used almost every part of our science payload examining this drift, said Curiosity Project Scientist John Grotzinger of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena. The synergies of the instruments and richness of the data sets give us great promise for using them at the mission's main science destination on Mount Sharp. NASA's Mars Science Laboratory Project is using Curiosity to assess whether areas inside Gale Crater ever offered a habitable environment for microbes. NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena manages the project for NASA's Science Mission Directorate in Washington. For more information about Curiosity and other Mars mission, visit: http://www.nasa.gov/mars You can follow the mission on Facebook and Twitter at: http://www.facebook.com/marscuriosity and http://www.twitter.com/marscuriosity -end- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Venus Express: A New Episode of Active Volcanism on Venus?
http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=51185 A new episode of active volcanism on Venus? Euoprean Space Agency 02 Dec 2012 For decades, planetary scientists have debated whether Venus possesses active volcanoes. The latest twist to the tale is provided by data sent back from ESA's Venus Express orbiter, revealing unexplained major changes in the amount of sulphur dioxide gas above the planet's dense cloud layer. Since Earth and Venus are similar in size and mass, and both planets formed around the same time and in the same region of the Solar System, one might expect them to virtual twins. However, Venus is enveloped by a thick blanket of clouds, composed mainly of sulphuric acid droplets. Hurricane force winds at the cloud tops sweep around the planet in only four days - a phenomenon known as super-rotation. Beneath the clouds, the carbon-dioxide-rich atmosphere has a density 90 times greater than on Earth. This suffocating atmosphere acts like a greenhouse, trapping solar heat and causing the surface temperature to soar to around 460 degrees Celsius. Although it is the closest planet to Earth and it has been visited by numerous spacecraft, Venus retains many mysteries. One enduring question is whether there are any active volcanoes. Radar imagery has revealed more than 1000 volcanic structures and evidence of possible periodic resurfacing of the planet by floods of lava. By studying emission of infrared radiation from lava flows around a volcanic mountain, Venus Express has also found indirect evidence that volcanism has taken place within the last 2.5 million years. However, no definitive proof of current volcanic eruptions has yet been found, and the debate continues to rage. The latest contribution to the investigation into active Venusian volcanism comes from the SPICAV-UV spectrometer on board Venus Express, which has been in orbit around the planet since 2006. By studying the SPICAV data, a team of scientists from France and Russia has discovered an unusual change in the amount of sulphur dioxide (SO_2 ) gas in the upper atmosphere. The SPICAV data show that the concentration of SO_2 above the main cloud deck increased slightly to about 1000 parts per billion by volume (ppbv) between 2006 and 2007, but then steadily decreased over the next five years, reaching only 100 ppbv by 2012. This is very reminiscent of a pattern observed by Pioneer Venus during the 1980s, the only other multi-year dataset of SO_2 measurements. Since Venus does not experience any seasons, the authors of the paper in Nature Geoscience suggest two possible explanations: periods of active volcanism, or long-term variability in the general circulation of the atmosphere. Sulphur dioxide is a key indicator of the processes taking place in the upper atmosphere of Venus, said Emmanuel Marcq, of LATMOS, Université de Versailles-Saint-Quentin, France, the lead author of the paper. SO_2 is known to be an important, and constant, constituent of the lower atmosphere of Venus. A steady supply of SO_2 to high levels is provided by air rising from the hot, lower atmosphere. When it gets above the clouds, SO_2 is rapidly destroyed by solar UV light, so it has a very short life, less than half a day, in the upper atmosphere of Venus. This means that the only explanation for a marked rise and fall in SO_2 concentration at an altitude of 70 km is an enhanced injection of enriched gas from lower levels, beneath the clouds. Although SO_2 is an important constituent of volcanic outgassing, the authors of the paper suggest that the increase observed by Venus Express may be the result of a plume of heated gases rising to high altitudes, rather than a direct injection of SO_2 . An explosive volcanic eruption, rather like a more powerful version of the 1991 Mt. Pinatubo eruption on Earth, could act like a piston, blasting a column of gas up to these levels, said co-author Jean-Loup Bertaux, Principal Investigator for Venus Express SPICAV instrument that made the detections. This extra convection could carry SO_2 above the clouds and temporarily increase its concentration. On the other hand, the amount of SO_2 in the lower atmosphere has remained remarkably stable at very high levels over more than a decade, and there has been no evidence of an increase in thermal emission from the planet's surface to coincide with the changes observed by SPICAV. This opens up the possibility that the increased levels of SO_2 above the clouds could have been caused by a change in the global atmospheric circulation which increased the movement of gases from the lower to upper atmosphere. During periods of scarce SO_2 , there is usually a greater amount above the poles of Venus than near the equator, said Emmanuel Marcq. However, this distribution pattern was reversed in our 2006-2007 data when SO_2 was abundant. This suggests that there may have been stronger advection (upwelling) near the equator of air from the lower, SO_2
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
There is a pervasive (and ugly) growing undercurrent now manifest in government that profit itself is the problem. Yet government plows ahead What is the BLM intent??? There seems to be no logical reason to impose these new regs other than that they can. And as with any well intentioned batch of regulators, the unintended consequences are missed, once again. Richard M - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Adam...with all due respect... You can't substantiate a single thing you say, but insist that I'm the gullible one. I just told you how a system like that might operate based off of logic and the structure of bureaucracies like the ones I have to work with/against every day here at a huge public school. This isn't rubbish someone told me. It's the nature of the beast when misguided attempts at efficiency are often the name of the game. Sinister motives almost never come into play. Such decisions are often the work of people who have worked within the bureaucracy for twenty years, barely know how to use their computer, and understand that the only way they'll be able to regulate the increasing commercialization of meteorites found on public land isn't by proposing what might be seen as a 'radical' new law, but rather by amending an existing one. And unless you can offer some theory as to why or how a politician might benefit from these new rules, it's really weird to insist upon it. You're making huge negative generalizations -- and making it sound like something of a conspiracy theory -- with nothing but personal bias to back it up. Seems to me that you'd find any regulation not to your liking crammed down your throat. We live in a democracy, though. It happens. I'm paying taxes for plenty of things I think are worthless, many of which I voted against. C'est la vie. Re: Peter One thing about the BLM regulations (not laws) is the prohibition on the sales of meteorites found on BLM lands. That prohibition will just create a black market for these meteorites that will keep them out of the hands of science. Doubt it. The only meteorites from BLM land that are commonly sold are Franconia, Gold Basin, etc. It's the odd other meteorite that makes its way to the market. New falls are really what's at risk here -- and possibly finds that weigh more than 10 lbs. For most dealers, though, I can't see this as being an issue. Since most stones are already being sold privately, it doesn't matter. If worst came to worst, a finder could claim that they purchased or were given a given stone in the field, and they would no longer be subject to the BLM regulations that apply to finders. In short, there's no need for the development of a black market, even if people wish to be unscrupulous. I think these new laws are silly, but that's about it. I have the feeling that others are using such strong language because they do fear later amendments that aren't so easy to get around, but...I'll fight that battle if and/or when it arises. I believe that a “free market” for meteorites encourages people to hunt for meteorites. Perhaps. Most hunters in the Southwest seem to hold onto their finds, by and large, but many do not. That said, this does not change the free-market nature of meteorites in the US. If people follow the rules, it will simply attach a nominal fee to hunting on BLM land (and, theoretically, one could hold off on getting a permit until after finding something in order to guarantee no unnecessary loss of fees). The more people hunting the more meteorites found. The more meteorites found the more meteorites that can be studied by scientists. Right, but conjecturing that fewer meteorites will be found with the new regulations seems odd to me. I'd be amazed to hear of anyone on the list planning to hunt less based on the new regulations. Perhaps the terms of the permit could be something along the lines of a $100 onetime fee that would allow the hunter to hunt on BLM managed land. If the permits require environmental impact statements and/or large fees none will be sought or issued. Of course. I'm guessing the ease of getting a permit will be along the lines of a hunting permit, but there's really no way to know that without trying to get one. Since the selling permit wouldn't raise the collection limit or allow industrial hunting equipment, it seems unlikely that they would required EOR-type material. The only likely disadvantage I see is that hunters with a commercial/meteorite vending permit will be more likely to have to pay taxes on their sales...if they weren't already doing so. Jason From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Date: Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 6:37 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy To: Adam
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
This Meteorite List is turning into a Politics List! lol I can understand both sides of the debate, and as a small time private hunter, sure I would like for the BLM to explicitly grant me broad, unrestricted permission to hunt meteorites to my heart's content on public land. But is that likely to happen? Of course not. As it stands, I don't feel particularly hindered by the current guidelines. My concern is that mounting an aggressive campaign to elicit a revision in these guidelines could backfire. The easiest answer for a bureaucrat to give, when pressed for a response, is No. I'm happy to support any effort to document the accomplishments and contributions to meteoritical science by private hunters. I just hope that it is handled in a way that doesn't provoke an outright hunting ban by the Feds next year. Doug Ross d...@dougross.net __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Auction, Bash and All
Anita, and all, As posted by Michael on August 3... This coming Tucson Meteorite Auction will be held in the Same location as the last several years on Saturday, Feb. 9, 2013 His entire announcement is pasted below. Haven't heard anything on the B-day Bash, but isn't it traditionally on theWednesday prior to the auction? Geoff rarely drops in here, but perhaps his esteemed twin can chime in. ;^) See you there! Linton Dear fellow List members, This coming Tucson Meteorite Auction will be held in the Same location as the last several years on Saturday, Feb. 9, 2013. http://michaelbloodmeteorites.com/AuctionTucson2013.html First, I would like to thank all of you for your past patronage in The Tucson Meteorite Auctions of the past. I appreciate it very much. Unfortunately the cost of putting on the auction has increased So significantly in the last several years that I have been walking a Narrow line just to stay in the black on these events, let alone make any money from them. On occasion, it has even cost me - after hundreds Of hours of prep (the on line catalog is quite time consuming)and money Up front. As you are probably aware, most auctions charge at least 25% Consignment fees while 35% is rapidly becoming the norm. In short, I must raise my consignment fee to 15% (for items submitted by Sept. 1) to be certain I will break even. In addition, most auctions now have a Buyers' Premium of 15% At least and often more. I will be holding that to 10%. I already have 15 items up and a personal collection of 17 pallasites and 38 other meteorites on the way - in the mail to me NOW As soon as they arrive I will get them photographed and listed in the On line catalog. That will make 70 lots from the get go. SEE HERE: http://michaelbloodmeteorites.com/AuctionTucson2013.html Those who would like to submit items, please contact me off list. I hope you all will be continuing your involvement - I would certainly love to see this auction continue as the joyful event it has become as part of the overall Tucson Show experience for the meteorite community. Thanks, Michael - Original Message - From: Anita Westlake anitawestl...@att.net To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 8:29 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Bash and All Apologies in advance if this was already announced, but I'm looking for info on the Birthday Bash and the Auction. Dates, times and locations please. Need to make my flight reservations... Thanks much, Anita __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hi Doug and Numerous Listers, I apologize for my little Indian rant earlier. It's obvious that this issue is not only controversial, but it also touches upon issues of politics and culture. There is a lot at stake here, and the issue merits attention. But, we must be smart about it. Tempers and personal interests aside, I think any increased regulation that stifles meteorite recovery is going to hurt everyone involved - hunters, dealers, trader/collectors, and scientists. Make no mistake, nobody will emerge unscathed if nothing is done to correct this course the BLM has taken. Dr. Gessler had the most cogent advice in this entire discussion. Please, let us all heed it : Get something intelligent and persuasive down on paper. Put some respected and authoritative names behind it and publish it in MAPS or any other journal/venue where it will be considered with the seriousness that it demands Best regards and happy huntings, MikeG -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - . On 12/3/12, Doug Ross d...@dougross.net wrote: This Meteorite List is turning into a Politics List! lol I can understand both sides of the debate, and as a small time private hunter, sure I would like for the BLM to explicitly grant me broad, unrestricted permission to hunt meteorites to my heart's content on public land. But is that likely to happen? Of course not. As it stands, I don't feel particularly hindered by the current guidelines. My concern is that mounting an aggressive campaign to elicit a revision in these guidelines could backfire. The easiest answer for a bureaucrat to give, when pressed for a response, is No. I'm happy to support any effort to document the accomplishments and contributions to meteoritical science by private hunters. I just hope that it is handled in a way that doesn't provoke an outright hunting ban by the Feds next year. Doug Ross d...@dougross.net __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Bash and All
Hi Anita and all, Anita, the Tucson Meteorite Auction will be at 7:30 PM Saturday, Feb. 9th (viewing and mingling from 6PM on) at The Same Location:1150 N. Beverly. All this info available at: http://michaelbloodmeteorites.com/AuctionTucson2013.html Geoff and Steve have yet to announce the Birthday Bash, But they have always held it the Wed before the auction. The IMCA dinner is always the Thursday after the BDBash before The auction. Looking foreword to seeing your jolly, gregarious self - and so Many others - in Tucson! (Is it time for Tucson Fever, already?!) Warm regards, Michael On 12/3/12 8:29 AM, Met. Anita Westlake anitawestl...@att.net wrote: Apologies in advance if this was already announced, but I'm looking for info on the Birthday Bash and the Auction. Dates, times and locations please. Need to make my flight reservations... Thanks much, Anita __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hi Michael and all, I have opinions about these things and in the next METEORITE MARKET TRENDS in the January issue of METEORITE TIMES I will address them. In the mean time, folks, the louder we yell about this the more likely we are to create resistance to impacting this situation positively. Pissing and moaning and pointing fingers seems to be very popular Among the American public in general and on this list in particular, but I Believe that continuing on with this issue in this forum has real potential To cripple any diplomatic steps to impact this situation that might possibly be achieved. Best to all, Michael On 12/3/12 8:18 AM, Met. Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote: Every inch of BLM land and all of America was stolen from native American Indians - the true owners of this land. Not the government, not some flag-waving redneck whose ancestors butchered, lied, and raped their way into ownership of it. Gloss over it with history books all you want, but this belly-aching about our land being usurped by the government sounds awfully familiar to someone with Indian ancestry. BLM stole your land? Here's some smallpox-infected blankets to wipe your tears with. I don't like these new BLM regulations either. I think it's a power-grab. I think if it is enforced strictly, it will hurt science and all meteorite recovery. But get off this rigtheous nonsense about the land belonging to the people - it's nonsense. We own it because we stole it by force. How is that any different than what the BLM is trying to do now? Feel violated? Imagine. Ask an Indian about this issue, if you can find one. Best regards and happy hunting, MikeG __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NASA's Curiosity Rover Wants Your Vote
MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION PASADENA, CALIF. 91109 PHONE 818-354-5011 http://www.jpl.nasa.gov Feature Dec. 3, 2012 NASA's Curiosity Rover Wants Your Vote TIME magazine has nominated NASA's most technologically advanced rover yet as one of its nearly 40 candidates for the Person of the Year designation. Describing the sole robotic nominee as the best car in the solar system that captured the attention of millions when it completed a fraught landing sequence with seamless grace, TIME is giving readers a chance to cast their vote for the venerable spacecraft. Visit the TIME poll (http://ti.me/WEZT8y) to cast your vote before 11:59 p.m. on Dec. 12. The people's choice winner will be announced on Dec. 14. A real-time ranking of all the nominees, including Curiosity, is available at http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2128881_2129111_2129112,00.html. For more information about Curiosity and other Mars missions, visit: http://www.nasa.gov/mars . You can follow the mission on Facebook and Twitter at: http://www.facebook.com/marscuriosity and http://www.twitter.com/marscuriosity . -end- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Bash and All
I believe the Birthday Bash is held on the middle Friday, not a Wednesday. This year I would expect it to be held Friday, Feb. 8. Michael in so. Cal. On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 4:56 PM, Michael Blood mlbl...@cox.net wrote: Hi Anita and all, Anita, the Tucson Meteorite Auction will be at 7:30 PM Saturday, Feb. 9th (viewing and mingling from 6PM on) at The Same Location:1150 N. Beverly. All this info available at: http://michaelbloodmeteorites.com/AuctionTucson2013.html Geoff and Steve have yet to announce the Birthday Bash, But they have always held it the Wed before the auction. The IMCA dinner is always the Thursday after the BDBash before The auction. Looking foreword to seeing your jolly, gregarious self - and so Many others - in Tucson! (Is it time for Tucson Fever, already?!) Warm regards, Michael On 12/3/12 8:29 AM, Met. Anita Westlake anitawestl...@att.net wrote: Apologies in advance if this was already announced, but I'm looking for info on the Birthday Bash and the Auction. Dates, times and locations please. Need to make my flight reservations... Thanks much, Anita __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] TRADE: Kentland impact melt/breccia for Vrededfort impact melt
Hi Everyone. I am looking to see if anyone is interested in trading Kentland melt/breccia I have for a nice melt specimen from the Vredefort, Siljan, or Lonar Lake impact craters. If interested please let me know off list and I will get you some weights and pictures of different available specimens. Thanks, Brandon D. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Birthday Bash
Perhaps Geoff or Steve will tell us? Michael On 12/3/12 5:03 PM, Michael Mulgrew mikest...@gmail.com wrote: I believe the Birthday Bash is held on the middle Friday, not a Wednesday. This year I would expect it to be held Friday, Feb. 8. Michael in so. Cal. On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 4:56 PM, Michael Blood mlbl...@cox.net wrote: Hi Anita and all, Anita, the Tucson Meteorite Auction will be at 7:30 PM Saturday, Feb. 9th (viewing and mingling from 6PM on) at The Same Location:1150 N. Beverly. All this info available at: http://michaelbloodmeteorites.com/AuctionTucson2013.html Geoff and Steve have yet to announce the Birthday Bash, But they have always held it the Wed before the auction. The IMCA dinner is always the Thursday after the BDBash before The auction. Looking foreword to seeing your jolly, gregarious self - and so Many others - in Tucson! (Is it time for Tucson Fever, already?!) Warm regards, Michael On 12/3/12 8:29 AM, Met. Anita Westlake anitawestl...@att.net wrote: Apologies in advance if this was already announced, but I'm looking for info on the Birthday Bash and the Auction. Dates, times and locations please. Need to make my flight reservations... Thanks much, Anita __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Ad-Awesome oriented meteorite ending tomorrow
Open to offers off EBay or trades for falls. End time: Dec 4, 2012 4:15:25 PM Item: 621 gram SUPREMELY ORIENTED stone meteorite looks like a PINECONE! http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.viewid=221149819937 http://www.ebay.com/itm/621-gram-SUPREMELY-ORIENTED-stone-meteorite-looks-like-PINECONE-/221149819937 Matt Morgan Mile High Meteorites P.O. Box 151293 Lakewood, Colorado 80215 USA http://www.mhmeteorites.com Like Us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/MileHighMeteorites __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] TRADE: Kentland and Glover Bluff impactites for Vredefort, Siljan, or Lonar Lake
I apologize for the double post but I would like to expand this trade offer to also include some very nice Glover Bluff impactites prepared as book ends, endcuts, and fantastic slices of which I have several different varieties found at the site. These are the best of the best, I guarantee it!! Thanks again, Brandon D. Brandon D. b1dunov...@aol.com wrote: Hi Everyone. I am looking to see if anyone is interested in trading Kentland melt/breccia I have for a nice melt specimen from the Vredefort, Siljan, or Lonar Lake impact craters. If interested please let me know off list and I will get you some weights and pictures of different available specimens. Thanks, Brandon D. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Michael, You're saying shut up or it might get worse? I think the discussion is more important than the outcome. Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 16:48:45 -0800 From: mlbl...@cox.net To: meteoritem...@gmail.com; raremeteori...@yahoo.com CC: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Hi Michael and all, I have opinions about these things and in the next METEORITE MARKET TRENDS in the January issue of METEORITE TIMES I will address them. In the mean time, folks, the louder we yell about this the more likely we are to create resistance to impacting this situation positively. Pissing and moaning and pointing fingers seems to be very popular Among the American public in general and on this list in particular, but I Believe that continuing on with this issue in this forum has real potential To cripple any diplomatic steps to impact this situation that might possibly be achieved. Best to all, Michael On 12/3/12 8:18 AM, Met. Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote: Every inch of BLM land and all of America was stolen from native American Indians - the true owners of this land. Not the government, not some flag-waving redneck whose ancestors butchered, lied, and raped their way into ownership of it. Gloss over it with history books all you want, but this belly-aching about our land being usurped by the government sounds awfully familiar to someone with Indian ancestry. BLM stole your land? Here's some smallpox-infected blankets to wipe your tears with. I don't like these new BLM regulations either. I think it's a power-grab. I think if it is enforced strictly, it will hurt science and all meteorite recovery. But get off this rigtheous nonsense about the land belonging to the people - it's nonsense. We own it because we stole it by force. How is that any different than what the BLM is trying to do now? Feel violated? Imagine. Ask an Indian about this issue, if you can find one. Best regards and happy hunting, MikeG __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA's Curiosity Rover Wants Your Vote
Hi Ron, I would certainly rank Curiosity well above the likes of Bashar Assad, Kim Jong-I-haven't-don't-anything-yet-Un, Mitt Romney, Paul Ryan, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Karl Rove (you've got to be kidding), Michael (Nanny) Bloomberg, Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, Roger Goodell, Pussy Riot, Jay-Z, Psy, or the nameless Undocumented Immigrants. But as with the Nobel Peace Prize (which has become an utter joke), I fully expect Time to designate some mass-murderer like Un or Assad, or some flash-in-the-pan pop celebrity. Curiosity has one of my votes. :-) --Rob -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Ron Baalke Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 4:58 PM To: Meteorite Mailing List Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA's Curiosity Rover Wants Your Vote MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION PASADENA, CALIF. 91109 PHONE 818-354-5011 http://www.jpl.nasa.gov Feature Dec. 3, 2012 NASA's Curiosity Rover Wants Your Vote TIME magazine has nominated NASA's most technologically advanced rover yet as one of its nearly 40 candidates for the Person of the Year designation. Describing the sole robotic nominee as the best car in the solar system that captured the attention of millions when it completed a fraught landing sequence with seamless grace, TIME is giving readers a chance to cast their vote for the venerable spacecraft. Visit the TIME poll (http://ti.me/WEZT8y) to cast your vote before 11:59 p.m. on Dec. 12. The people's choice winner will be announced on Dec. 14. A real-time ranking of all the nominees, including Curiosity, is available at http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2128881_21291 11_2129112,00.html. For more information about Curiosity and other Mars missions, visit: http://www.nasa.gov/mars . You can follow the mission on Facebook and Twitter at: http://www.facebook.com/marscuriosity and http://www.twitter.com/marscuriosity . -end- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA's Curiosity Rover Wants Your Vote
Nice post, Rob, and I'll second your vote for Curiosity. This sould be a no contest vote. Curiosity wins, hands down. Greg L. Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 18:41:19 -0800 From: robert.d.mat...@saic.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA's Curiosity Rover Wants Your Vote Hi Ron, I would certainly rank Curiosity well above the likes of Bashar Assad, Kim Jong-I-haven't-don't-anything-yet-Un, Mitt Romney, Paul Ryan, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Karl Rove (you've got to be kidding), Michael (Nanny) Bloomberg, Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, Roger Goodell, Pussy Riot, Jay-Z, Psy, or the nameless Undocumented Immigrants. But as with the Nobel Peace Prize (which has become an utter joke), I fully expect Time to designate some mass-murderer like Un or Assad, or some flash-in-the-pan pop celebrity. Curiosity has one of my votes. :-) --Rob -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Ron Baalke Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 4:58 PM To: Meteorite Mailing List Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA's Curiosity Rover Wants Your Vote MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION PASADENA, CALIF. 91109 PHONE 818-354-5011 http://www.jpl.nasa.gov Feature Dec. 3, 2012 NASA's Curiosity Rover Wants Your Vote TIME magazine has nominated NASA's most technologically advanced rover yet as one of its nearly 40 candidates for the Person of the Year designation. Describing the sole robotic nominee as the best car in the solar system that captured the attention of millions when it completed a fraught landing sequence with seamless grace, TIME is giving readers a chance to cast their vote for the venerable spacecraft. Visit the TIME poll (http://ti.me/WEZT8y) to cast your vote before 11:59 p.m. on Dec. 12. The people's choice winner will be announced on Dec. 14. A real-time ranking of all the nominees, including Curiosity, is available at http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2128881_21291 11_2129112,00.html. For more information about Curiosity and other Mars missions, visit: http://www.nasa.gov/mars . You can follow the mission on Facebook and Twitter at: http://www.facebook.com/marscuriosity and http://www.twitter.com/marscuriosity . -end- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
