Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Greg Hupe via Meteorite-list]

When will the Insanity end? Wake up, Give it a Break and Move on with 
Realty...
As in the song... Deal with your Monsters... or they will deal with 
You..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHkozMIXZ8w

Best Regards,
Greg


Greg Hupe
The Hupe Collection
gmh...@centurylink.net
www.NaturesVault.net (Online Catalog & Reference Site)
www.LunarRock.com (Online Planetary Meteorite Site)
NaturesVault (Facebook, Pinterest & eBay)
http://www.facebook.com/NaturesVault
http://pinterest.com/NaturesVault
IMCA 3163

Click here for my current eBay auctions:
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault

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[meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day

[Paul Swartz via Meteorite-list]

No picture was submitted for today.

http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpodmain.asp?DD=01/21/2016
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Re: [meteorite-list] Star's Bizarre Optical Antics at Least a, Century Old

[Greg B. via Meteorite-list]

What would be nice is if they could collect enough light strength from 
the 1500 light/yr star to use a spectrometer to determine composition 
data. This way if you know a star should be showing spectra of He. H, 
and some Iron, yet shows a lot of aluminum and gold, and titanium, etc, 
then I would think that it must be an alien artificial structure that is 
causing the variations in the star's brightness.


Greg B.


On 01/20/2016 00:25, meteorite-list-requ...@meteoritecentral.com wrote:

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Today's Topics:

1. Meteorite Picture of the Day (valpar...@aol.com)
2. Re: Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S. (Raremeteorites)
3. AD - Actions Ending - Material With Great Character
   (Raremeteorites)
4. Star?s Bizarre Optical Antics at Least a Century Old (Paul)
5. AD- 40% off! Shop my eBay Store Labenne Meteorites   for big
   savings (Luc Labenne Meteorites)
6. Re: Star's Bizarre Optical Antics at Least a Century Old
   (Sterling K. Webb)
7. Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S. (ian macleod)


--

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 00:00:11 -0700
From: 
To: 
Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <8A61418A20F14A56A92B54BE662F2408@Seuthopolis>
Content-Type: text/plain

Today's Meteorite Picture of the Day: Giroux

Contributed by: Anne Black

http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpodmain.asp?DD=01/19/2016


--

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 10:38:45 -0800
From: "Raremeteorites" 
To: 
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
Message-ID: <7D4173C9567C4AB2AB023640038E6B87@HPDESKTOP>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8";
reply-type=original

I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they are
still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been
hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs and
people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect
people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.


- Original Message -
From: "Larry Atkins" 
To: ; 
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Adam,

What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or whatever.
really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without actual charges
or at least a ticket, it's just words.

I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened during, or
just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a mission
to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same officers
watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger fish long
ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American meteorites
"poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long for them to
figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough money to merit
the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other topic.

  I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard
core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of hours
per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact with
was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. Some day
if we ever  get together we can share some stories.

As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a point. You
can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up fossils
all day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will hold true for
meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first North American
Lunar.

  The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. : )



Sincerely,
Larry Atkins

IMCA # 1941
Ebay alienrockfarm



-Original Message-
From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list

To: meteorite-list 

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Michael Mulgrew via Meteorite-list]

Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
"BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.

Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
to even make it as far as I did.

We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
found on private property.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:
>
> I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they are 
> still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been 
> hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men. 
> Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs and 
> people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect 
> people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of 
> limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American Lunar, 
> they can go back in time to bolster their case.
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" 
> To: ; 
> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>
>
> Hi Adam,
>
> What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or whatever. 
> really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without actual charges or 
> at least a ticket, it's just words.
>
> I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened during, or 
> just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a mission to 
> keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same officers 
> watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger fish long 
> ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American meteorites 
> "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long for them to 
> figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough money to merit 
> the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other topic.
>
> I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard core 
> meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of hours per year 
> without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact with was aware 
> of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. Some day if we ever  
> get together we can share some stories.
>
> As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a point. You 
> can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up fossils all 
> day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will hold true for 
> meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first North American 
> Lunar.
>
> The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. : )
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Larry Atkins
>
> IMCA # 1941
> Ebay alienrockfarm
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list 
> To: meteorite-list 
> Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>
> I wish what you said was true.  Our entire group was hassled around the
> Pahrump area in Nevada and twice in California.  Eight of our team members
> were threatened (warned) and I know others on the List who have been hassled
> as well.  Two agents based out Barstow went as far as saying they know what
> is being sold on eBay.  We were told that some public land is designated as
> heritage or areas of areas of critical concern which are completely off
> limits while metal detectors cannot be used in other areas.  I cannot find
> any source which lists these areas so an agent can determine this in field
> so be careful.  Just ask artifact and fossils hunters what happened with
> their once-fine avocation including the fellow who found "Sue" the dinosaur.
>
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" 
> To: ; 
> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>
>
> Hi Adam, All,
>
> This may be true but it is very rarely if ever enforced, rendering the laws
> meaningless. BLM got all excited a couple years ago but it came to nothing,
> ask Michael Mulgrew how his application went. It's a joke. The people
> enforcing the laws of our wild lands have better things to do than hassle
> rock hounds. In my sixteen years of hunting and occasional selling I've
> never heard of, or experienced trouble. In fact, I've encountered law
> enforcement of all types while in the field, told them exactly what I was
> doing, talked money 

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are not 
to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, Nevada 
area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field 
after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is after 
the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us with 
leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you sold?" 
and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have no 
commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real 
value is scientific.


Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed 
everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and 
attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The 
Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.


Adam




- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Mulgrew" 

To: "Raremeteorites" 
Cc: "Meteorite List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
"BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.

Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
to even make it as far as I did.

We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
found on private property.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:


I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they are 
still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been 
hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men. 
Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs 
and people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to 
protect people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of 
limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American 
Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.



- Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" 
To: ; 


Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Adam,

What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or 
whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without 
actual charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.


I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened during, 
or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a 
mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same 
officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger 
fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American 
meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long for 
them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough money 
to merit the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other 
topic.


I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard 
core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of hours 
per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact 
with was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. 
Some day if we ever  get together we can share some stories.


As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a point. 
You can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up 
fossils all day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will hold 
true for meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first North 
American Lunar.


The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. : )



Sincerely,
Larry Atkins

IMCA # 1941
Ebay alienrockfarm



-Original Message-
From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list 


To: meteorite-list 
Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

I wish what you said was true.  Our entire group was hassled around the
Pahrump area in Nevada and twice in California.  Eight of our team members
were threatened (warned) and I know others on the List who have been 
hassled
as well.  Two agents based out Barstow went as far as saying they know 
what
is being sold on eBay.  We were told that some public land is designated 
as

heritage or areas of areas of critical concern which are completely off
limits while metal detectors 

[meteorite-list] Revisiting flightpath of Indian Butte (Stanfield/Casa Grande) bolide of 7 June 1998

[Matson, Rob D. via Meteorite-list]

Hi All,

I've been revisiting the June 7th, 1998, fall over Stanfield, AZ (Indian 
Butte), attempting to better
constrain the original bolide flight direction. I know David Kring at the time 
collected hundreds of
reports from witnesses, trying to piece together the trajectory and a likely 
fall zone. David
correctly surmised that the fall ended somewhere between Casa Grande and Gila 
Bend, but
nowhere have I read a report that estimated the flight direction and entry 
angle. The only
mention I've seen was in a reposted article that appeared on the meteorobs list:

http://www.meteorobs.org/maillist/msg08069.html

The paragraph in particular is a witness report by Joe Montani from central 
Tucson:

"Joe Montani, an observer with the UA Spacewatch program, which scans the 
heavens
looking for comets and asteroids, saw this object from his back yard in central 
Tucson. 
 
"He said it appeared in the sky almost due north, and while it appeared  to go 
almost
straight down toward the ground, that likely was an optical  illusion. Montani 
believes
it may have been moving almost parallel to the Earth's surface.
 
 "If its angle of attack had been any more shallow, it would have bounced 
 off the Earth's atmosphere and back into space," Montani said.

Joe's conclusions are completely at odds with one another, so either he was 
misquoted or
he was completely mistaken about either the bearing or direction of motion. As 
we now
know, he could not possibly have seen the meteor in his north heading 
vertically downward.
That would have put the terminus to his north, which it certainly wasn't. He 
~might~ have
first seen it in his north moving right-to-left nearly *parallel* to the 
ground, but that is
90 degrees different from going "almost straight down toward the ground". As an
observer with Spacewatch, Joe would know this, so I'm leaning toward a misquote 
by
the reporter.

The evidence in the radar data says the bolide travelled northeast to southwest 
with
a shallow entry angle. Was curious if this is consistent with all the reports 
that Kring
collected.  --Rob

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Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

It is best to contact the BLM office in either the Needles, CA or Barstow, 
CA and they will tell you directly the laws.  I have contacted both offices 
in the past.  It is consistent that meteorites found on public land cannot 
be used for commercial purposes without a permit.  Since there is no way to 
obtain a permit, the law clearly states that they can only be used for 
scientific and educational purposes.  They try to make it look like they can 
used for commercial purpose but if you read the law carefully, this is not 
the case without a permit which will never be issued therefore a law is 
being broken if any meteorites found on public land are sold.


BLM PDF which briefly answers questions although it is very nebulous in its 
content.


http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/wo/Information_Resources_Management/policy/im_attachments/2012.Par.65264.File.dat/IM2012-182_att1.pdf



- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Mulgrew" 

To: "Raremeteorites" 
Cc: "Meteorite List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Adam,

Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:
A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are 
not

to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, Nevada
area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is 
after
the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us 
with
leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you 
sold?"
and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have 
no

commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
value is scientific.

Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The
Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.

Adam




- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" 


To: "Raremeteorites" 
Cc: "Meteorite List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
"BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.

Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
to even make it as far as I did.

We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
found on private property.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:



I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they 
are

still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been
hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs 
and

people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect
people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.


- Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" 
To: ;

Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Adam,

What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without 
actual

charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.

I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened 
during,

or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a
mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same
officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger
fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American
meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long 
for
them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough 
money to

merit the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other
topic.

I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard
core meteorite 

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Michael Mulgrew via Meteorite-list]

Not a law.  Thank you.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:
> Exact wording from BLM website:
>
>
>
> Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn details
> for their area of interest.
>
>
>
> Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or sold?
>
>
>
> Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an
> individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use.  A
> permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be collected,
> including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of fair
> market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" 
> To: "Raremeteorites" 
> Cc: "Meteorite List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>
>
>> Adam,
>>
>> Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
>> section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.
>>
>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are
>>> not
>>> to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, Nevada
>>> area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
>>> after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is
>>> after
>>> the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us
>>> with
>>> leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you
>>> sold?"
>>> and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have
>>> no
>>> commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
>>> value is scientific.
>>>
>>> Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
>>> everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
>>> attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The
>>> Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew"
>>> 
>>> To: "Raremeteorites" 
>>> Cc: "Meteorite List" 
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>
>>>
>>> Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
>>> "BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.
>>>
>>> Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
>>> series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
>>> they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
>>> to even make it as far as I did.
>>>
>>> We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
>>> found on private property.
>>>
>>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>>  wrote:



 I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they
 are
 still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been
 hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
 Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs
 and
 people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect
 people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
 limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
 Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.


 - Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" 
 To: ;
 
 Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


 Hi Adam,

 What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
 whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without
 actual
 charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.

 I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened
 during,
 or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a
 mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same
 officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger
 fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American
 meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long
 for
 them to figure 

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Michael Mulgrew via Meteorite-list]

Adam,

Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:
> A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are not
> to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, Nevada
> area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
> after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is after
> the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us with
> leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you sold?"
> and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have no
> commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
> value is scientific.
>
> Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
> everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
> attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The
> Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" 
> To: "Raremeteorites" 
> Cc: "Meteorite List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>
>
> Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
> "BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.
>
> Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
> series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
> they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
> to even make it as far as I did.
>
> We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
> found on private property.
>
> -Michael in so. Cal.
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>  wrote:
>>
>>
>> I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they are
>> still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been
>> hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
>> Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs and
>> people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect
>> people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
>> limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
>> Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" 
>> To: ;
>> 
>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>
>>
>> Hi Adam,
>>
>> What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
>> whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without actual
>> charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.
>>
>> I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened during,
>> or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a
>> mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same
>> officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger
>> fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American
>> meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long for
>> them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough money to
>> merit the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other
>> topic.
>>
>> I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard
>> core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of hours
>> per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact with
>> was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. Some day
>> if we ever  get together we can share some stories.
>>
>> As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a point.
>> You can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up
>> fossils all day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will hold
>> true for meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first North
>> American Lunar.
>>
>> The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. : )
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Larry Atkins
>>
>> IMCA # 1941
>> Ebay alienrockfarm
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>> 
>> To: meteorite-list 
>> Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>
>> I wish 

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

Exact wording from BLM website:



Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn details 
for their area of interest.




Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or sold?



Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an 
individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use.  A 
permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be collected, 
including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of fair 
market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.






- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Mulgrew" 

To: "Raremeteorites" 
Cc: "Meteorite List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Adam,

Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:
A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are 
not

to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, Nevada
area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is 
after
the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us 
with
leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you 
sold?"
and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have 
no

commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
value is scientific.

Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The
Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.

Adam




- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" 


To: "Raremeteorites" 
Cc: "Meteorite List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
"BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.

Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
to even make it as far as I did.

We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
found on private property.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:



I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they 
are

still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been
hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs 
and

people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect
people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.


- Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" 
To: ;

Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Adam,

What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without 
actual

charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.

I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened 
during,

or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a
mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same
officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger
fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American
meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long 
for
them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough 
money to

merit the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other
topic.

I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard
core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of 
hours
per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact 
with
was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. Some 
day

if we ever  get together we can share some stories.

As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a 

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

Federal rules and regulations are laws.


- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Mulgrew" 

To: "Raremeteorites" 
Cc: "Meteorite List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Not a law.  Thank you.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:

Exact wording from BLM website:



Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn 
details

for their area of interest.



Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or sold?



Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an
individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use. 
A
permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be 
collected,
including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of 
fair

market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.






- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" 


To: "Raremeteorites" 
Cc: "Meteorite List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Adam,

Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:


A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are
not
to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, 
Nevada

area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is
after
the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us
with
leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you
sold?"
and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have
no
commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
value is scientific.

Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The
Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.

Adam




- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew"

To: "Raremeteorites" 
Cc: "Meteorite List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
"BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.

Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
to even make it as far as I did.

We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
found on private property.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:




I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they
are
still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not 
been

hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter 
eggs

and
people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to 
protect

people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.


- Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" 
To: ;

Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Adam,

What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without
actual
charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.

I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened
during,
or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a
mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those 
same
officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to 
bigger
fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding 
American

meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long
for
them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough
money 

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

One just has to research Sue the T- Rex or the Old Woman meteorite to see 
that the regulations are enforceable under law.  The poor Sue the T-Rex 
finder was rewarded with a prison sentence under these regulations (laws).



- Original Message - 
From: "Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list" 


To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Federal rules and regulations are laws.


- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Mulgrew" 

To: "Raremeteorites" 
Cc: "Meteorite List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Not a law.  Thank you.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:

Exact wording from BLM website:



Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn 
details

for their area of interest.



Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or sold?



Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an
individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use. 
A
permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be 
collected,
including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of 
fair

market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.






- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" 


To: "Raremeteorites" 
Cc: "Meteorite List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Adam,

Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:


A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land 
are

not
to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, 
Nevada
area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the 
field

after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is
after
the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us
with
leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you
sold?"
and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they 
have

no
commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the 
real

value is scientific.

Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers. 
The

Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.

Adam




- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew"

To: "Raremeteorites" 
Cc: "Meteorite List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
"BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.

Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
to even make it as far as I did.

We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
found on private property.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:




I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they
are
still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not 
been

hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter 
eggs

and
people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to 
protect

people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North 
American

Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.


- Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" 
To: ;

Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. 
U.S.



Hi Adam,

What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without
actual
charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.

I'm 

[meteorite-list] Tucson Gem Show

[kdmeteorites--- via Meteorite-list]

Hello, Everybody!!

We wanted to let you all know that we will be in two new locations this year.

We will be at the Riverpark Inn, room 125 (the Pueblo Gem Show) starting 
Monday, January 25 through Feb 10th.

We will also be at the Mineral and Fossil Marketplace, inside the building. 
Look for our name above our door! :-) 

We are also happy to announce that Matthew Martin, owner of the Natural History 
Lab, will be joining us at the Riverpark inn. He brings some spectacular 
Martian and Lunar material; as well as membrane boxes, meteorite jewelry, and 
many other meteorites. 

So come on over to our new spots and check everything out - if you need it we 
probably have it!!

We still have our couch to rest your weary legs on :-)

See you there!

Cheers,
Dana

Meteorite Lady Rocks!
__

Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the 
Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
Meteorite-list mailing list
Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Greg Hupe via Meteorite-list]

Waste of breath, don't use it in an endless 'debate'...
Keyboard Warrior Alert ...---...



-Original Message- 
From: Michael Mulgrew via Meteorite-list

Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 2:45 PM
To: Raremeteorites
Cc: Meteorite List
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

Adam,

Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:
A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are 
not

to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, Nevada
area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is 
after
the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us 
with

leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you sold?"
and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have no
commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
value is scientific.

Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The
Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.

Adam




- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" 
To: "Raremeteorites" 
Cc: "Meteorite List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
"BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.

Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
to even make it as far as I did.

We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
found on private property.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:



I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they are
still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been
hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs 
and

people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect
people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.


- Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" 
To: ;

Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Adam,

What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without 
actual

charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.

I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened during,
or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a
mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same
officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger
fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American
meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long 
for
them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough money 
to

merit the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other
topic.

I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard
core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of hours
per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact 
with
was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. Some 
day

if we ever  get together we can share some stories.

As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a point.
You can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up
fossils all day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will hold
true for meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first North
American Lunar.

The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. : )



Sincerely,
Larry Atkins

IMCA # 1941
Ebay alienrockfarm



-Original Message-
From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list

To: meteorite-list 
Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm

[meteorite-list] Greg Hupe & Nature's Vault, Inc. - Meteoritic Future Guaranteed!

[Greg Hupe via Meteorite-list]

Into a New Year and at the door to the 2016 Tucson Show, I thought I would 
re-post my statement from July 2014...



[Original post from July 8, 2014]
Dear Meteorite Community,

In recent months my brother, Adam, has publicly commented several times that
he has taken steps to take a break from meteoritics, including selling his
equipment except for perhaps one saw.  I feel compelled to send this notice
since many people mistake Adam for me and vice-versa even though I have been
primarily working on my own for the last 10 years since I moved to Florida.

While my brother has announced his break... I, Greg Hupe, strive to provide
the very best meteorites and customer service personally and through my
company, Nature's Vault, Inc.  I am more engaged in all aspects of
meteoritics than ever before and look forward to working far into the future
to bring out more rare and exciting meteorites. I am here to stay and look
forward to working with like-minded individuals.  I have many great friends
in all aspects of meteoritics and related fields such as space science and
travel.

The Hupe name and Nature's Vault will continue to be an integral part of
meteoritics far into the future!

Best Regards,
Greg Hupe


Greg Hupé
The Hupé Collection
gmh...@centurylink.net
www.NaturesVault.net (Online Catalog & Reference Site)
www.LunarRock.com (Online Planetary Meteorite Site)
NaturesVault (Facebook, Pinterest & eBay)
http://www.facebook.com/NaturesVault
http://pinterest.com/NaturesVault
IMCA 3163

Click here for my current eBay auctions:
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault


__

Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the 
Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
Meteorite-list mailing list
Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Michael Mulgrew via Meteorite-list]

Then cite me title and section of the CFR that deals with meteorites.

Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:
> Federal rules and regulations are laws.
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" 
> To: "Raremeteorites" 
> Cc: "Meteorite List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>
>
>> Not a law.  Thank you.
>>
>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Exact wording from BLM website:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn
>>> details
>>> for their area of interest.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or sold?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an
>>> individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use. A
>>> permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be
>>> collected,
>>> including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of
>>> fair
>>> market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew"
>>> 
>>> To: "Raremeteorites" 
>>> Cc: "Meteorite List" 
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>
>>>
 Adam,

 Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
 section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.

 -Michael in so. Cal.

 On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
  wrote:
>
>
> A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are
> not
> to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump,
> Nevada
> area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
> after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is
> after
> the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us
> with
> leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you
> sold?"
> and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have
> no
> commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
> value is scientific.
>
> Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
> everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
> attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The
> Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew"
> 
> To: "Raremeteorites" 
> Cc: "Meteorite List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>
>
> Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
> "BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.
>
> Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
> series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
> they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
> to even make it as far as I did.
>
> We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
> found on private property.
>
> -Michael in so. Cal.
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they
>> are
>> still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not
>> been
>> hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
>> Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter
>> eggs
>> and
>> people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to
>> protect
>> people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
>> limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
>> Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" 
>> To: ;
>> 

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

Don't shoot the messenger.  I am opposed to this overregulation myself.  I 
am not a lawyer so you will have to obtain specific information directly 
from the source.  In this case, the U.S. Department of the Interior.  I am 
just trying to prevent field collectors from running into trouble instead of 
sticking my head in sand and ignoring that these rules/regulations/laws 
exist.



- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Mulgrew" 

To: "Raremeteorites" 
Cc: "Meteorite List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Then cite me title and section of the CFR that deals with meteorites.

Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:

Federal rules and regulations are laws.


- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" 


To: "Raremeteorites" 
Cc: "Meteorite List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Not a law.  Thank you.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:


Exact wording from BLM website:



Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn
details
for their area of interest.



Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or 
sold?




Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an
individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use. 
A

permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be
collected,
including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of
fair
market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.






- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew"

To: "Raremeteorites" 
Cc: "Meteorite List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Adam,

Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:



A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land 
are

not
to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump,
Nevada
area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the 
field
after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This 
is

after
the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch 
us

with
leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you
sold?"
and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they 
have

no
commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the 
real

value is scientific.

Future generations may remember our generation as the one that 
screwed

everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers. 
The

Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.

Adam




- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew"

To: "Raremeteorites" 
Cc: "Meteorite List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. 
U.S.



Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
"BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.

Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - 
a

series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
to even make it as far as I did.

We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% 
be

found on private property.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
 wrote:





I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but 
they

are
still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not
been
hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as 
Met-Men.

Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter
eggs
and
people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to
protect
people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North 
American

Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.


- Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" 

[meteorite-list] Additional Info

[kdmeteorites--- via Meteorite-list]

Hi again;

I forgot to list the address of the Mineral and Fossil Marketplace.

It is located at 1333 N. Oracle Road.

Cheers,
Dana

Meteorite Lady Rocks!
__

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Re: [meteorite-list] Greg Hupe & Nature's Vault, Inc. - Meteoritic Future Guaranteed!

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

Yes, please do not mistake us.  I have been involved in meteorites many 
years longer and have volunteered my services in support of this fine 
avocation including two board terms in the IMCA, guiding fieldtrips for many 
hunter who made there very first finds and numerous talks/presentations on 
the subject.   As I said, I am disengaging from meteorite sales slowly, not 
the fine avocation of meteorite collecting and hunting itself.   I want to 
return to hobby status but I have a few issues that need to be taken care of 
first that are temporally holding me back.


I will not be attending Tucson this year for reasons I will discuss at a 
later date.


I miss the days of field hunts, reports and new discoveries rather than be 
burdened with the business end of things which have turned ugly in recent 
years.


Adam





- Original Message - 
From: "Greg Hupe via Meteorite-list" 

To: 
Cc: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 1:18 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Greg Hupe & Nature's Vault,Inc. - Meteoritic 
Future Guaranteed!



Into a New Year and at the door to the 2016 Tucson Show, I thought I would
re-post my statement from July 2014...


[Original post from July 8, 2014]
Dear Meteorite Community,

In recent months my brother, Adam, has publicly commented several times that
he has taken steps to take a break from meteoritics, including selling his
equipment except for perhaps one saw.  I feel compelled to send this notice
since many people mistake Adam for me and vice-versa even though I have been
primarily working on my own for the last 10 years since I moved to Florida.

While my brother has announced his break... I, Greg Hupe, strive to provide
the very best meteorites and customer service personally and through my
company, Nature's Vault, Inc.  I am more engaged in all aspects of
meteoritics than ever before and look forward to working far into the future
to bring out more rare and exciting meteorites. I am here to stay and look
forward to working with like-minded individuals.  I have many great friends
in all aspects of meteoritics and related fields such as space science and
travel.

The Hupe name and Nature's Vault will continue to be an integral part of
meteoritics far into the future!

Best Regards,
Greg Hupe


Greg Hupé
The Hupé Collection
gmh...@centurylink.net
www.NaturesVault.net (Online Catalog & Reference Site)
www.LunarRock.com (Online Planetary Meteorite Site)
NaturesVault (Facebook, Pinterest & eBay)
http://www.facebook.com/NaturesVault
http://pinterest.com/NaturesVault
IMCA 3163

Click here for my current eBay auctions:
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault


__

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Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com

Meteorite-list mailing list
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[meteorite-list] The Meteorite and the Hidden Hoax (BBC Radio 4)

[karmaka via Meteorite-list]

A well-known story told again:

The Meteorite and the Hidden Hoax

Science Series
BBC Radio 4
20 January 2016
 
audio:

http://open.live.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/5/redir/version/2.0/mediaset/audio-nondrm-download/proto/http/vpid/p03fcypq.mp3

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06wg805
 
Enjoy! ;-)

Martin
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Re: [meteorite-list] Caltech Researchers Find Evidence of a Real Ninth Planet

[Count Deiro via Meteorite-list]

The Mormons are going to go nuts! This solves their missing giant planet where 
so many apostates are supposed to get parked in their theology story. Their 
planet is called "Golub".

Count Deiro
IMCA 3536 MetSoc



-Original Message-
>From: Ron Baalke via Meteorite-list 
>Sent: Jan 20, 2016 1:53 PM
>To: Meteorite Mailing List 
>Subject: [meteorite-list] Caltech Researchers Find Evidence of a Real Ninth
>Planet
>
>
>http://www.caltech.edu/news/caltech-researchers-find-evidence-real-ninth-planet-49523
>
>Caltech Researchers Find Evidence of a Real Ninth Planet
>Caltech
>January 20, 2016
>
>Caltech researchers have found evidence of a giant planet tracing a bizarre, 
>highly elongated orbit in the outer solar system. The object, which the 
>researchers have nicknamed Planet Nine, has a mass about 10 times that 
>of Earth and orbits about 20 times farther from the sun on average than 
>does Neptune (which orbits the sun at an average distance of 2.8 billion 
>miles). In fact, it would take this new planet between 10,000 and 20,000 
>years to make just one full orbit around the sun.
>
>The researchers, Konstantin Batygin and Mike Brown, discovered the planet's 
>existence through mathematical modeling and computer simulations but have 
>not yet observed the object directly.
>
>"This would be a real ninth planet," says Brown, the Richard and Barbara 
>Rosenberg Professor of Planetary Astronomy. "There have only been two 
>true planets discovered since ancient times, and this would be a third. 
>It's a pretty substantial chunk of our solar system that's still out there 
>to be found, which is pretty exciting."
>
>Brown notes that the putative ninth planet - at 5,000 times the mass of 
>Pluto - is sufficiently large that there should be no debate about whether 
>it is a true planet. Unlike the class of smaller objects now known as 
>dwarf planets, Planet Nine gravitationally dominates its neighborhood 
>of the solar system. In fact, it dominates a region larger than any of 
>the other known planets - a fact that Brown says makes it "the most planet-y 
>of the planets in the whole solar system."
>
>Batygin and Brown describe their work in the current issue of the Astronomical 
>Journal and show how Planet Nine helps explain a number of mysterious 
>features of the field of icy objects and debris beyond Neptune known as 
>the Kuiper Belt.
>
>"Although we were initially quite skeptical that this planet could exist, 
>as we continued to investigate its orbit and what it would mean for the 
>outer solar system, we become increasingly convinced that it is out there," 
>says Batygin, an assistant professor of planetary science. "For the first 
>time in over 150 years, there is solid evidence that the solar system's 
>planetary census is incomplete."
>
>The road to the theoretical discovery was not straightforward. In 2014, 
>a former postdoc of Brown's, Chad Trujillo, and his colleague Scott Sheppard 
>published a paper noting that 13 of the most distant objects in the Kuiper 
>Belt are similar with respect to an obscure orbital feature. To explain 
>that similarity, they suggested the possible presence of a small planet. 
>Brown thought the planet solution was unlikely, but his interest was piqued.
>
>He took the problem down the hall to Batygin, and the two started what 
>became a year-and-a-half-long collaboration to investigate the distant 
>objects. As an observer and a theorist, respectively, the researchers 
>approached the work from very different perspectives - Brown as someone 
>who looks at the sky and tries to anchor everything in the context of 
>what can be seen, and Batygin as someone who puts himself within the context 
>of dynamics, considering how things might work from a physics standpoint. 
>Those differences allowed the researchers to challenge each other's ideas 
>and to consider new possibilities. "I would bring in some of these 
>observational 
>aspects; he would come back with arguments from theory, and we would push 
>each other. I don't think the discovery would have happened without that 
>back and forth," says Brown. " It was perhaps the most fun year of working 
>on a problem in the solar system that I've ever had."
>
>Fairly quickly Batygin and Brown realized that the six most distant objects 
>from Trujillo and Shepherd's original collection all follow elliptical 
>orbits that point in the same direction in physical space. That is 
>particularly 
>surprising because the outermost points of their orbits move around the 
>solar system, and they travel at different rates.
>
>"It's almost like having six hands on a clock all moving at different 
>rates, and when you happen to look up, they're all in exactly the same 
>place," says Brown. The odds of having that happen are something like 
>1 in 100, he says. But on top of that, the orbits of the six objects are 
>also all tilted in the same way - pointing 

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Carl Esparza via Meteorite-list]

List, 
I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I have been rock collecting for many years. I 
grew up in Arizona.  I have thousands of rocks (literally). And yes, they are 
just rocks until they are identified or classified otherwise. In the past few 
years Blaine Reed has made verification / identification a little easier than 
it has ever been before. Nowadays you can have them zapped with Blain's XRF 
hand held X-ray gun. With this service comes advise from Blaine as well. Blaine 
has gathered quite a database of knowledge. Not nearly as much guess work as 
before. Although there is a small fee for his services, it is well worth the 
expense. Before the XRF era you had to show it around to different people and 
get there opinion of whether it was a meteorite or not. Everyone had an opinion 
based largely on their own experience and sometimes it was not pretty. . More 
recently Aziz and Sean also bought XRF's to test with so, the industry is 
moving in the right direction. Additionally the Scientists are m
 ore and more publishing their results on chemistry found within the meteorites 
so, a rather interesting evolution has occurred. It is no longer just a guess. 
I now have literally dozens of analyzed rocks to study and compare chemistry 
with. This is a very exciting time in meteorites. I so look forward to the 
Tucson show but, to address the topic of this thread; Like LA 001 and LA 002 
Martian meteorites, many of the old finds will never have exact coordinates as 
back in the day this was not even possible. Nobody had a machine (GPS) that 
would tell you this info. Heck, you were lucky to even snap a photo of your 
find. Similarly the older official classifications also lack coordinates for 
the same reasons. I recently visited the Game and Fish to obtain a rock 
collecting permit. They told me all I needed to do is visit the local field 
office nearest the national forest and they would sell me a permit. They went 
on to say , with certain restrictions that I could pick up both specimens fo
 r collectors or landscape material for my yard. They followed up on 9/30/ 2015 
with a call from a lady there named Bev Everson and she told me it was no big 
deal as long as it is surface rocks and that I do not do much damage but I do 
need a permit. I never mentioned the word meterite because as I said before . 
They are just rocks until classified. Best to all. See you at the show. 
Carl
--
Love & Life

 Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list  
wrote: 
> Don't shoot the messenger.  I am opposed to this overregulation myself.  I 
> am not a lawyer so you will have to obtain specific information directly 
> from the source.  In this case, the U.S. Department of the Interior.  I am 
> just trying to prevent field collectors from running into trouble instead of 
> sticking my head in sand and ignoring that these rules/regulations/laws 
> exist.
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Michael Mulgrew" 
> To: "Raremeteorites" 
> Cc: "Meteorite List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
> 
> 
> > Then cite me title and section of the CFR that deals with meteorites.
> >
> > Michael in so. Cal.
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
> >  wrote:
> >> Federal rules and regulations are laws.
> >>
> >>
> >> - Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" 
> >> 
> >> To: "Raremeteorites" 
> >> Cc: "Meteorite List" 
> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:04 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Not a law.  Thank you.
> >>>
> >>> -Michael in so. Cal.
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
> >>>  wrote:
> 
>  Exact wording from BLM website:
> 
> 
> 
>  Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn
>  details
>  for their area of interest.
> 
> 
> 
>  Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or 
>  sold?
> 
> 
> 
>  Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an
>  individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use. 
>  A
>  permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be
>  collected,
>  including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of
>  fair
>  market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  - Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew"
>  
>  To: "Raremeteorites" 
>  Cc: 

[meteorite-list] Caltech Researchers Find Evidence of a Real Ninth Planet

[Ron Baalke via Meteorite-list]

http://www.caltech.edu/news/caltech-researchers-find-evidence-real-ninth-planet-49523

Caltech Researchers Find Evidence of a Real Ninth Planet
Caltech
January 20, 2016

Caltech researchers have found evidence of a giant planet tracing a bizarre, 
highly elongated orbit in the outer solar system. The object, which the 
researchers have nicknamed Planet Nine, has a mass about 10 times that 
of Earth and orbits about 20 times farther from the sun on average than 
does Neptune (which orbits the sun at an average distance of 2.8 billion 
miles). In fact, it would take this new planet between 10,000 and 20,000 
years to make just one full orbit around the sun.

The researchers, Konstantin Batygin and Mike Brown, discovered the planet's 
existence through mathematical modeling and computer simulations but have 
not yet observed the object directly.

"This would be a real ninth planet," says Brown, the Richard and Barbara 
Rosenberg Professor of Planetary Astronomy. "There have only been two 
true planets discovered since ancient times, and this would be a third. 
It's a pretty substantial chunk of our solar system that's still out there 
to be found, which is pretty exciting."

Brown notes that the putative ninth planet - at 5,000 times the mass of 
Pluto - is sufficiently large that there should be no debate about whether 
it is a true planet. Unlike the class of smaller objects now known as 
dwarf planets, Planet Nine gravitationally dominates its neighborhood 
of the solar system. In fact, it dominates a region larger than any of 
the other known planets - a fact that Brown says makes it "the most planet-y 
of the planets in the whole solar system."

Batygin and Brown describe their work in the current issue of the Astronomical 
Journal and show how Planet Nine helps explain a number of mysterious 
features of the field of icy objects and debris beyond Neptune known as 
the Kuiper Belt.

"Although we were initially quite skeptical that this planet could exist, 
as we continued to investigate its orbit and what it would mean for the 
outer solar system, we become increasingly convinced that it is out there," 
says Batygin, an assistant professor of planetary science. "For the first 
time in over 150 years, there is solid evidence that the solar system's 
planetary census is incomplete."

The road to the theoretical discovery was not straightforward. In 2014, 
a former postdoc of Brown's, Chad Trujillo, and his colleague Scott Sheppard 
published a paper noting that 13 of the most distant objects in the Kuiper 
Belt are similar with respect to an obscure orbital feature. To explain 
that similarity, they suggested the possible presence of a small planet. 
Brown thought the planet solution was unlikely, but his interest was piqued.

He took the problem down the hall to Batygin, and the two started what 
became a year-and-a-half-long collaboration to investigate the distant 
objects. As an observer and a theorist, respectively, the researchers 
approached the work from very different perspectives - Brown as someone 
who looks at the sky and tries to anchor everything in the context of 
what can be seen, and Batygin as someone who puts himself within the context 
of dynamics, considering how things might work from a physics standpoint. 
Those differences allowed the researchers to challenge each other's ideas 
and to consider new possibilities. "I would bring in some of these 
observational 
aspects; he would come back with arguments from theory, and we would push 
each other. I don't think the discovery would have happened without that 
back and forth," says Brown. " It was perhaps the most fun year of working 
on a problem in the solar system that I've ever had."

Fairly quickly Batygin and Brown realized that the six most distant objects 
from Trujillo and Shepherd's original collection all follow elliptical 
orbits that point in the same direction in physical space. That is particularly 
surprising because the outermost points of their orbits move around the 
solar system, and they travel at different rates.

"It's almost like having six hands on a clock all moving at different 
rates, and when you happen to look up, they're all in exactly the same 
place," says Brown. The odds of having that happen are something like 
1 in 100, he says. But on top of that, the orbits of the six objects are 
also all tilted in the same way - pointing about 30 degrees downward in 
the same direction relative to the plane of the eight known planets. The 
probability of that happening is about 0.007 percent. "Basically it shouldn't 
happen randomly," Brown says. "So we thought something else must be shaping 
these orbits."

The first possibility they investigated was that perhaps there are enough 
distant Kuiper Belt objects - some of which have not yet been discovered - to 
exert the gravity needed to keep that subpopulation clustered together. 
The researchers quickly ruled this out when it turned out that such a 
scenario 

Re: [meteorite-list] Caltech Researchers Find Evidence of a Real Ninth Planet

[Larry Lebofsky via Meteorite-list]

Everyone:

At the time that Pluto was being "reclassified," Hal Levinson from SWRI
produced a figure that shows the mass that is need to "clear one's orbit"
at any given distance from the Sun. This can be due to either accretion or
scattering of objects. At Pluto's distance of 40 AU, an Earth-mass-sized
body would not be a planet by about a factor of 10. Beyond 200 AU, neither
Uranus or Neptune (15 and 17 times the mass of the Earth) would be large
enough to clear their orbits. At 20 times Neptune's distance from the Sun,
600 AU, an object would have to be something like 80 times the mass of the
Earth, nearly the mass of Saturn, to be able to clear its orbit.

So, if there is an object that is as big as they say and at the distance
the predict (this is just a mathematical model, not an actual discovery),
this object would just be a VERY BIG dwarf planet!!

Larry Lebofsky


>
> http://www.caltech.edu/news/caltech-researchers-find-evidence-real-ninth-planet-49523
>
> Caltech Researchers Find Evidence of a Real Ninth Planet
> Caltech
> January 20, 2016
>
> Caltech researchers have found evidence of a giant planet tracing a
> bizarre,
> highly elongated orbit in the outer solar system. The object, which the
> researchers have nicknamed Planet Nine, has a mass about 10 times that
> of Earth and orbits about 20 times farther from the sun on average than
> does Neptune (which orbits the sun at an average distance of 2.8 billion
> miles). In fact, it would take this new planet between 10,000 and 20,000
> years to make just one full orbit around the sun.
>
> The researchers, Konstantin Batygin and Mike Brown, discovered the
> planet's
> existence through mathematical modeling and computer simulations but have
> not yet observed the object directly.
>
> "This would be a real ninth planet," says Brown, the Richard and Barbara
> Rosenberg Professor of Planetary Astronomy. "There have only been two
> true planets discovered since ancient times, and this would be a third.
> It's a pretty substantial chunk of our solar system that's still out there
> to be found, which is pretty exciting."
>
> Brown notes that the putative ninth planet - at 5,000 times the mass of
> Pluto - is sufficiently large that there should be no debate about whether
> it is a true planet. Unlike the class of smaller objects now known as
> dwarf planets, Planet Nine gravitationally dominates its neighborhood
> of the solar system. In fact, it dominates a region larger than any of
> the other known planets - a fact that Brown says makes it "the most
> planet-y
> of the planets in the whole solar system."
>
> Batygin and Brown describe their work in the current issue of the
> Astronomical
> Journal and show how Planet Nine helps explain a number of mysterious
> features of the field of icy objects and debris beyond Neptune known as
> the Kuiper Belt.
>
> "Although we were initially quite skeptical that this planet could exist,
> as we continued to investigate its orbit and what it would mean for the
> outer solar system, we become increasingly convinced that it is out
> there,"
> says Batygin, an assistant professor of planetary science. "For the first
> time in over 150 years, there is solid evidence that the solar system's
> planetary census is incomplete."
>
> The road to the theoretical discovery was not straightforward. In 2014,
> a former postdoc of Brown's, Chad Trujillo, and his colleague Scott
> Sheppard
> published a paper noting that 13 of the most distant objects in the Kuiper
> Belt are similar with respect to an obscure orbital feature. To explain
> that similarity, they suggested the possible presence of a small planet.
> Brown thought the planet solution was unlikely, but his interest was
> piqued.
>
> He took the problem down the hall to Batygin, and the two started what
> became a year-and-a-half-long collaboration to investigate the distant
> objects. As an observer and a theorist, respectively, the researchers
> approached the work from very different perspectives - Brown as someone
> who looks at the sky and tries to anchor everything in the context of
> what can be seen, and Batygin as someone who puts himself within the
> context
> of dynamics, considering how things might work from a physics standpoint.
> Those differences allowed the researchers to challenge each other's ideas
> and to consider new possibilities. "I would bring in some of these
> observational
> aspects; he would come back with arguments from theory, and we would push
> each other. I don't think the discovery would have happened without that
> back and forth," says Brown. " It was perhaps the most fun year of working
> on a problem in the solar system that I've ever had."
>
> Fairly quickly Batygin and Brown realized that the six most distant
> objects
> from Trujillo and Shepherd's original collection all follow elliptical
> orbits that point in the same direction in physical space. That is
> particularly
> surprising because the outermost points of their