Re: [meteorite-list] Terrestrial meteorite
There is also the possibility that there are,orbiting the Sun, hundreds of rocks from the Chicxulub Impact 65 million yearsago that caused an ecological catastrophe that killed all the large dinosaurs.This may not one of them, alas, but the rocks are out there. It would be sure interestingto have some to study. Francis Graham On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 01:05:45 AM PDT, Albert Jambon via Meteorite-list wrote: There was a presentation at the Goldschmidt Conference in Lyon this week. Here is a link https://www.newscientist.com/article/2381928-meteorite-left-earth-then-landed-back-down-after-round-trip-to-space/ Albert JAMBON __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Inidana
The Indiana fireball with its associated sonic booms was assumed to be a Lyrid, mostly ice, and unlikely to produce a meteorite. But could it also be the case that the Indianameteor had nothing to do with the Lyrids or Comet Thatcher at all, but was anasteroidal belt meteor , that coincidentally hit during the time of theLyrids? Multiple observations of thefireball could be analyzed via the method in Porter’s Cometsand Meteor Streams (Wiley, 1952) to determine its past orbitand radiant. If this is different thanthe Lyrids, a substantial meteorite may exist in Hamilton County. Francis GrahamEast Pittsburgh __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] is it a meteorite
Ruben Garcia poses a line of questions that can be carried further. What is the legal definition of a meteorite? I know I cannot sell oranges labeled as apples. It is now possible to send an amateur rocket higher than 62 miles; such happens now at the annual Black Rock NV launches sponsored by the Tripoli Rocketry Association. This is the legal boundary of space. If a person would send rocks up in such a rocket, and recovers them, are they able to be sold as Meteorites? Watch out. Tektites and lunar meteorites, according to prevailing theories, have an ultimate origin on Earth. So you can't say the rocks must be from some place other than Earth. Not that I personally would try to sell space-boosted gravel as meteorites. But where there is money in it, someone will, if it's legal. Francis Graham On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 1:25 AM, Ruben Garcia rubengarcia85...@gmail.com wrote: Interesting question. It's probably not a meteorite if you define a meteorite as a solid piece of debris, from such sources as asteroids or comets, that originates in outer space and survives its impact with the Earth's surface. However, maybe it's a terrestrial meteorite. I guess man made space junk may fall into the same category since some of that can have fusion crust and flow lines. On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Chris volke...@hotmail.com wrote: Suppose a fusion crusted stone is found shortly after a fireball. When examined it shows a celestial age of a few million years and a relatively short formation age. More examination shows it to be a stone formed on earth, ejected into space and returned here. Is it meteorite or a meteorwrong. Or something in between? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Rock On! Ruben Garcia http://www.MrMeteorite.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Chinese Rover NWA 5000 Sales - AD
Where might one find specifications on the Chinese lunar rover (dimensions, technical details, placement of experiments, etc)? Also I am whimsically curious, when the Pathfinder rolled out on Mars, Matchbox made a nice cast-metal souvenir of it. Wonder if that will happen with the Chinese Lunar Rover? Francis Graham On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Greg Hupé gmh...@centurylink.net wrote: Hello Everyone! Chinese Moon Landing = Lunar Meteorite Sales!! Looks like the successful moon landing by the Chinese a couple days ago is good for sales of lunar meteorites… we’ve sold several nice pieces of NWA 5000 over the last couple of days on the Nature’s Vault web site! Here is a link to what we have available on Nature’s Vault: http://www.naturesvault.net/meteorites/nwa5000.html Adam have several awesome pieces in his eBay Store and on regular auction under his eBay seller name, rarmeteorites! Click here to see what he has: http://www.ebay.com/sch/raremeteorites!/m.html?_ipg=50_sop=12_rdc=1 I hope everyone is enjoying the holidays!! Best Regards, Greg Greg Hupé The Hupé Collection gmh...@centurylink.net www.NaturesVault.net (Online Catalog Reference Site) www.LunarRock.com (Online Planetary Meteorite Site) NaturesVault (Facebook, Pinterest eBay) http://www.facebook.com/NaturesVault http://pinterest.com/NaturesVault IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] When a fall turns out to be a find not recently fallen.
Dear List, It is possible that a meteorite might be seen to fall, and then the site of the fall investigated and a meteorite found; but upon later analysis the weathering, etc. reveals that the meteorite collected couldn't possibly have been the witnessed fall, but instead a coincidental independent find. My question, has this ever happened in real life? Francis Graham East Pittsburgh __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Geminids on Toutatis?
Hi Chris Thanks for your reply. Ah! You misunderstood my message. Certainly,no impacts on Toutatis could have been resolved from Earth observation; I suggested it was only remotely possible in Chang'e imagery of Toutatis, and then it wasn't too probable. As it turned out, no impacts happened during the encounter. But in future encounters of near Earth objects by spacecraft during meteor showers, it might be looked for again, but not expected. I think it was the character of Charlie Chan who once said, Strange events sometimes permit themselves the luxury of having occurred. Francis Graham On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Francis Graham fgra...@kent.edu wrote: Hello I am not familiar with the imaging devices on Chang e 2 as it heads for Toutatis. But the Geminids are here, and flashes of meteor impacts from showers have been recorded as they happen on the Moon. Presumably, some Geminid impacts might happen also on Toutatis during the Chang-e 2 encounter--not too likely, but not so improbable as to be discounted. Pushbroom imaging systems would probably miss it though...well, maybe. Something I suppose to look for, but not hope for. Francis Graham __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Geminids on Toutatis?
Hello I am not familiar with the imaging devices on Chang e 2 as it heads for Toutatis. But the Geminids are here, and flashes of meteor impacts from showers have been recorded as they happen on the Moon. Presumably, some Geminid impacts might happen also on Toutatis during the Chang-e 2 encounter--not too likely, but not so improbable as to be discounted. Pushbroom imaging systems would probably miss it though...well, maybe. Something I suppose to look for, but not hope for. Francis Graham __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Woolly Mammoths Gigantism
Hi Sterling K. Webb and Paul H's discussion on the disadvantages of evolved gigantism is a very good one. I would like to add one more: small organisms can be distributed world wide on tsunami debris, but larger organisms clearly cannot. This effect is happening today: http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news-Tsunami-Debris-Carries-Potential-Invasive-Species-061112.aspx?et_cid=2692184et_rid=54630376linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.laboratoryequipment.com%2fnews-Tsunami-Debris-Carries-Potential-Invasive-Species-061112.aspx I hope this does not drift too much off topic. We see good evidence that big meteor impacts alter ecosystems, but every altered ecosystem doth not have a crater associated with it. Other stuff can happen, of course, and the list is long. Francis Graham __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Phoenix Lander
Dear List Mark Ford has a point. In the Apollo Lunar Missions, right away as soon as they emerged from the LM, the astronauts obtained a basket of moon rocks and sent it up to the LM. The reasoning was, if something went amiss, and they had to leave the lunar surface soon after landing, they would not return empty-handed. This was called a contingency sample. The argument also applies to unmanned missions. Phoenix might have had a provision for an immediate contingency analysis designed in to its program, but, at risk of peril, did not, and waited a week. Nonetheless it is a good idea to do contingency sampling. It might be also a good idea for a future Mars sample return mission to obtain an immediate contingency sample. If things go wrong, and the scoop arm later malfunctions while picking around for interesting stuff, or some such, at least they can blast the hurried small contingency sample off Mars and back to Earth. One can apply this also to astronomy. One might collect what data one can, even low grade, right away, in case it clouds up. Then do careful instrument tweaking if clouds stay away. In meteorite collecting, one can grab a few random samples around the crater ejecta and then, if the situation remains pleasant, seek out better samples elsewhere. Seems like a smart idea. There is a host of practical problems to which this idea can be applied, where time=increased chance of difficulties. Francis Graham __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] A New Question
Hello The real motivation behind this government collaboration is the worry that brazen nations (and there is never a shortage of these) might abuse this no-man's land while other well behaved nations stood by and got jealous, disadvantaged, or had their security threatened. So the countries agreed that military, disposal or commercial (i.e., mining, harvesting flora or fauna) acivities by any treaty signatories was mutually prohibited. Neuschwabenland is a case in point. Hitler wanted a commercial colony in Antarctica, so he staked out a claim in the Norwegian claim for his own regime. Fortunately for the ecology of Antarctica, he was distracted by the horrific war he started which made Europe a wasteland and cemetary. Without the Antarctic Treaty, surely other nations would be there with claims and schemes, perhaps, not regimes as bad as Hitler, but conflicted and unsound still. I wonder what effect the spectre of Neuschwabenland had on the motivation behind the Antarctic treaty. Most of the politics of the late 20th century came out of the war. In some sense, it took 50 years to settle the damage. There are six other continents, and many--perhaps thousands-- meteorites are just sitting on places there waiting for your perusal, study, and admiration. Perhaps Antarctic Park can be left alone. Francis Graham __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Breaking news-- satellite hit
Bob wrote: The hydrazine aspect was a total smokescreen. Complete B.S., which news stations should have been embarrassed to report as the main reason. The government/military was not in the least bit concerned about the hydrazine injuring or killing someone on the ground because it was not even a 6-sigma possibility. You should all be offended that the U.S. government thinks you are that stupid. Why couldn't they have just been honest: WE DON'T WANT ANY REMNANTS OF HIGHLY CLASSIFIED TECHNOLOGY ANALYZED BY UNFRIENDLY COUNTRIES. AND BESIDES, WE'RE SALIVATING AT THE OPPORTUNITY TO TEST AN ABM AGAINST A DIFFICULT TARGET. It's really that simple. The timing of the intercept more or less proves it. --Rob Isn't that what I said on an earlier post?!? The news media seems willing to hire people who talk through their nose and read Pentagon press releases without any thought or analysis whatsoever. I'll bet people at the Pentagon are even surprised. Journalism has been going deeper into the abyss as the years go by, it seems. Sigh. Francis Graham Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] DoD To Engage Decaying Satellite
There is just something not right about the assumptions in this press release; take it from an old amateur rocket man. Hydrazine boils at 114 Celsius. If the tank containing it re-enters, it is almost certain to heat up and boil the material, overpressure the tank and explode long before reaching the ground. If a fissure develops in the tank, and hydrazine is exposed to the oxygen in the air, even in the stratosphere, it will blow up at just above body temperature, 37 Celsius. The chances of any hydrazine reaching the ground, and spilling out after impact, is zero I would think. It's not really a credible danger. There may be other perfectly valid reasons why the DoD might want to destroy this satellite. Target practice is one. And there may be perfectly good reasons why they might not want souvenir hunters picking over the wreckage if it lands. It's a top-secret spy satellite, after all. Photos of the wreckage could be used to understand surveillance limitations and abilities. This is something the North Koreans probably would like to know. These are very good reasons for asking the public to stay clear. But hydrazine after re-entry? No, I don't think so. I realize I'm a bit controversial on this. So if any of you folks want to point out why I could be wrong, please do. But I think that hydrazine simply would not survive re-entry. Francis Graham --- Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Public Affairs U.S. Department of Defense Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense Washington, D.C. Media contact: +1 (703) 697-5131/697-5132 IMMEDIATE RELEASE: February 14, 2008 No. 0125-08 DoD To Engage Decaying Satellite An uncontrollable U.S. experimental satellite which was launched in December 2006 is expected to reenter Earth's atmosphere between the end of February and early March. Because the satellite was never operational, analysis indicate that approximately 2,500 pounds (1134 kgs) of satellite mass will survive reentry, including 1,000 pounds (453 kgs) of propellant fuel (hydrazine), a hazardous material. Although the chances of an impact in a populated area are small, the potential consequences would be of enough concern to consider mitigating actions. Therefore, the President has decided to take action to mitigate the risk to human lives by engaging the non-functioning satellite. Because our missile defense system is not designed to engage satellites, extraordinary measures have been taken to temporarily modify three sea-based tactical missiles and three ships to carry out the engagement. Based on modeling and analysis, our officials have high confidence that the engagement will be successful. As for when this engagement will occur, we will determine the optimal time, location, and geometry for a successful engagement based on a number of factors. As the satellite's path continues to decay, there will be a window of opportunity between late February and early March to conduct this engagement. The decision to engage the satellite has to be made before a precise prediction of impact location is available. Contact with hydrazine is hazardous. Direct contact with skin or eyes, ingestion or inhalations from hydrazine released from the tank upon impact could result in immediate danger. If this operation is successful, the hydrazine will then no longer pose a risk to humans. The U.S. government has been and continues to track and monitor this satellite. Various government agencies are planning for the reentry of the satellite. In the event the engagement is not successful, all appropriate elements of the U.S. Government are working together to explore options to mitigate the danger to humans and to ensure that all parties are properly prepared to respond. In the unlikely event satellite pieces land in a populated area, people are strongly advised to avoid the impact area until trained hazardous materials (HAZMAT) teams are able to properly dispose of any remaining hydrazine. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ensisheim: What is the TRUE FALL DATE??
Dear List, I do not know if this is a universally adopted rule, even among scientists, but I have adopted the following rule: dates before the Gregorian reform of 1582 are to be stated in the Julian system, dates after the reform are to be stated in the Gregorian System. I do not retroactively apply the Gregorian system before 1582. Dates prior to Julius Caesar's reform however are retroactively applied to all past time. So all time prior to Oct 4, 1582 are given in Julian Dates. NASA adopts this rule as well. In the Five Millennium Canon of Solar Eclipses (2000 BCE-3000CE) , NASA TP-2006-214141 , by Epspenak and Meeus. Now I have a question about Ensisheim: I heard that the Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I either witnessed the fall, or visited the meteorite soon thereafter. What is the correct story with the Holy Roman Emperor? And: has any head of state been known to witness a meteorite fall? Francis Graham Francis Graham Kent State University Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Bernd Pauli's excellent abstract of Burke, part 6
Dear List, The veneration of meteorites by pre-Columbian Native American cultures, as objects from the sky, even when the meteorites in veneration are finds that came down at times that predate the culture, is no mystery to me. Native Americans must certainly have known of falls, and when they had finds, they recognized the rocks as the same types as they or stories handed to them described as falls. Thus they learned, just as we 21st century people do, to recognize meteorites. Francis Graham --- E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 18:57:14 +0200 From: Bernd Pauli HD [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Native Americans and Meteorites - Part 6 of 6 Jeanne wrote: I was also wondering if your book mentions anything about Native American usage of Canyon Diablo irons for tools, amulets or other spiritual items. BURKE J.G. (1986) Cosmic Debris - Meteorites in History, pp. 231-232: The Hopewell Indians of the Ohio Valley fabricated knives, chisels, ear ornaments, and buttons by hammering or cold-working meteoritic material. Crushed fragments of olivine or interstices in the metal from which the olivine had been lost revealed that at least some of the artifacts had been fashioned from a pallasite. George Kunz in 1890 remarked that the meteoritic nuggets found there greatly resembled the Brenham pallasite, and although Brezina agreed with this opinion, other scientists did not. Recently, Wasson and Sedwick concluded from their analysis of the nickel and trace element composition that the Ohio material was virtually identical to the Brenham pallasite. The Indians at Havana, Illinois, fabricated the beads found there, which varied in diameter from three-sixteenths to five-eighths of an inch, from sheets or strips of meteoritic material that were fashioned into cylinders with a lapped seam on one side. However, Buchwald determined that the Indians must have intermittently annealed the strips during the cold-working process. The microstructure he observed indicated that the annealing temperature was about 650° C, and the slightly distorted appearance of the kamacite grains showed that cold-working followed the last annealing process. Best regards, Bernd What brought this about was my confusing the Casas Grandes ruins with the Casa Grande ruins. I still would not be surprised to find meteorites in Anasazi observatories. Also, a number of museums' meteorite collections are in violation of NAGPRA. The theft of the Navaho meteorites is particularly offensive to me. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Who was the first meteorite in flight photographer?
Hello! Mechanix Illustrated, April, 1939, p. 94, contains this curious statement: Apparently, only one photographer has ever been lucky enough to snap the picture of a falling meteorite. As of 1939, is that true? And who might that be? The writer does not say. Charles P. Olivier's Meteors (Williams and Wilkins, Baltimore: 1925) has as its frontspiece the Great Bolide of Sept. 12, 1923 racing on a plate of the Andromeda Galaxy, M31. This photo was taken by Josef Klepesta at the Prague Observatory. But to my knowledge that did not produce a known meteorite. There are other meteor photos in Olivier's book: Plate 2 is a Great Meteor Feb. 21, 1922 by Bosler and Mechvile at Paris Observatory; a meteor trail appears in Plate 3 in an exposure of NGC 6995 by E.E. Barnard, plate 9 shows one on Nov. 16,1922 by W.J.S. Lockyer. But none of these made meteorites. There has to be scores of pre-1939 astrograph plates with meteor trails. So the question is, to what were the editors of Mechanix Illustrated referring? Or do they simply have it wrong? I also suspect, that, even to this day, there are less than a dozen pictures of recovered meteorites on the way down. Or have I under-estimated that? Francis Graham Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Who was the first meteorite in flight photographer?
--- Piper R.W. Hollier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or did you mean that you estimate that there are fewer than a dozen recovered meteorites that were photographed in flight? Thanks for the clarification. Yes. I wonder how many *different* meteorites have been photographed coming in. Even in the case of Peekskill, many of the videos show the light on the ground, but not the actual meteor cum meteorite, if I recall correctly. I do not know if such surveillance videos should count, although they sure fix the time pretty well. Francis Graham Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Asteroid may be set to slam Mars in Jan.
--- David Pensenstadler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My guess is that the asteroid will take out the Mars Odyssey (THEMIS) satellite before hitting Opportunity on the surface. Or, as a friend of mine said, Please, please don't hit the Face! If it DOES hit Mars, I wonder what observations visual amateur astronomers can make of it? I think if it kicks up a dust storm that should be easy to see. The impact flash seems problematic. 3 MT might be visible on the Moon from Earth, but Mars? As soon as the astrometry comes in, these things will all have to be determined fast--if there indeed is an impact. Francis Graham Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
Jerry: Yes! This proposed study is inspiring! And it could be done! And think of it! If these really are micrometeorites, and we can convincingly show it, you could easily have the largest meteorite collection in the world without leaving your country home! Of course, I admit Farmer, Black, Haag, Arnold, Matteo, and others on this list would exceed your collection in *mass*but why quibble. Seriously, such a study of whether these are micrometeorites carefully done could be published. While The Astrophysical Journal might not want it, any number of science edcuation journals would feature it! This is precisely the kind of stuff that teachers want to know: does their demonstration actually demonstrate the point? To be convincing, said reknown teacher-educator Dr David Keller of Kent State, you must have three independent aspects, triangulation, and this applies to science education research also. The three proposed are : (1) aerodynamic ablative shape (2) ferromagnetic response (3) nickel content similar to similarly sized particles of kamacite, but unlike industrial debris. If particles meet all three tests, in the absence of contraindications, then we can *reasonably* consider them iron micrometeorites. Recall Cloudtop Science Center on this list using filters reported a collection of particles which failed to match BOTH (1) and (2). So there is some doubt. It is true industrial iron microparticles may be produced in large numbers in processes. But any industrial debris would have to have been made airborn in very recent time. The air oxidizes them rapidly. Iron does not hang around in humid air very long, as collectors of large iron meteorites are quite aware! Much less time so the microparticles exist, as Yoda would say. Would they make it over intercontinental distances in large numbers? This is uncertain. A mass/area ratio back-of-the-envelope estimate is that the would not last more than two days as native iron in the wet troposphere. I posted this discussion on list, but, in the future, we can correspond off-list, to avoid boring listees with no interest in micrometeorites. The reason I went on list is to invite anyone to comment, especially, spot flaws, before such a study is commenced. Jerry, you shown yet another way to enjoy the rain again. Francis Graham --- Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There you go Francis, worth every kilonewton of effort. But, first I have to set up a few collectors away from local pollutants, which in my case may be more feasible than some. I live in the boondocks as it were, 1 1/2 mile off tar roads and right smack in the middle of nothing. [Also great for star watching!] Nothing much I can do about the stuff deposited via jet streams so pictures may help to recognize comparative photos of microites in all the journals and have some semi scientific fun. Setting up collecting apparatus in several locations won't be an issue, so, better stop gabbing, grab my plastic trash can covers, white poly, add a little H2O to keep whatever lands from bouncing out, use my refrigerator magnets first, then the neo ones, set up my stereoscopes etc., Who knows where such may lead and really who cares?! An instinct, an idea followed is motivation and satisfaction all rolled into one. It beats bantering but truly everyone's opinion has been very very helpful in getting me charged up. Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: Francis Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 8:53 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater Hello Jerry was thinking along the same lines I was. I was wondering how one might begin such a study on a small budget. One method that might be used is to gather the iron spherules that morphologically resemble Brownlees and put them into a millimeter high and wide pile. Place them in between two jaws of a 100% copper electric spark gap. Then, using a Bunsen Kirchoff spectroscope with a camera in the back --available in most teaching labs--snap a picture of the spectrum. Repeat with a similar piece of Gibeon or Campo, and then maybe some industrial debris. I'll bet the nickel content in the spectrum will give it away as mostly meteoritic, or confirm it is not. Nickel has 6 close lines of emission in the blue-violet region that are characteristic of it, the second to shortest wavelenth is actually triple. Of course, you'll have no more micrometeorite sample doing this test--it will vaporize. But at least then you could be fairly sure what the next micrometeorite candidates you collect are. So now that I have done my thinking on line, it must be actually attempted! Francis Graham Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r
Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
Hello Jerry was thinking along the same lines I was. I was wondering how one might begin such a study on a small budget. One method that might be used is to gather the iron spherules that morphologically resemble Brownlees and put them into a millimeter high and wide pile. Place them in between two jaws of a 100% copper electric spark gap. Then, using a Bunsen Kirchoff spectroscope with a camera in the back --available in most teaching labs--snap a picture of the spectrum. Repeat with a similar piece of Gibeon or Campo, and then maybe some industrial debris. I'll bet the nickel content in the spectrum will give it away as mostly meteoritic, or confirm it is not. Nickel has 6 close lines of emission in the blue-violet region that are characteristic of it, the second to shortest wavelenth is actually triple. Of course, you'll have no more micrometeorite sample doing this test--it will vaporize. But at least then you could be fairly sure what the next micrometeorite candidates you collect are. So now that I have done my thinking on line, it must be actually attempted! Francis Graham Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
Dear List I have a question which has been vexing me for some years. I was introduced to a method of collection of micrometeorites by Larry Megahan some years ago, which consisted of collecting rainwater and then wrapping a powerful rare Earth magnet in Saran (TM)wrap. Placing the Saran wrap on a glass plate, and examining it under the microscope, one could see many ferromagnetic particles. Some were rounded and ablated and it was a strong guess that these were micrometeorites. I have had some students try this project and indeed some of the particles are microspheroids of ablated iron, similar to so called Brownlee particles colected in the stratosphere. But I have reason to be suspicious, especially if the collection is near a former industrial or mining site. MY QUESTION IS, has this method, widely circulated in presecondary teaching circles, ever been critically evaluated by electron microprobe analysis, X-Ray fluorescence or some such? And at what size level does a meteorite cease to be of interest? It would naively seem, that although a very very very tiny percentage of meteorites are lunars or Martians, if a way to rapidly identify micrometeorites can be done, a lot more information on Mars and the Moon could be obtained, simply because there are so many micrometeorites. This would include collection in the stratosphere as Brownlee did, maybe piggybacked on surveillance aircraft. But one question at a time. Francis Graham Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
Dear Doug, Larry and List, Thanks for the response from you both and from Sr Gallo in Venezuela! Upon further reflection, I am not sure how much information can be gained from micrometeorite lunar dust grains...the problem is that you have only one or two mineral grains...maybe three. But what you lack in macroscopic petrological context, you might gain in microscopic studies involving isotopes, studies of polymorphic forms, and odd minerals (e.g. Hapkeite) etc. But then there is the whole problem of identification of lunar micrometeorites, not an easy one to solve, especially, as Larry says (and I agree) they are likely to be rare. H. I like your suggestion that this would be an interesting project to critically examine, in conjunction with an educational project. Francis Graham --- mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Francis, I was thinking exactly the same angle already posted by Larry, so let me just comment on your question: And at what size level does a meteorite cease to be of interest? by offering the opinion: At the level it ceases to contain any information attributable to meteoroids, meteorites or their parent bodies. Since this will change with time and technology, the question may be time and resource dependent. However, your inquiry about whether any of these particles have been analyzed (or imo, capable of being analyzed at present), stands. It would seem to me, that a very good project for schools would be to organize a collection protocol for educators in the style of the superb International Monarch Butterfly tagging program (or also like SETI on home computers), to collect large amounts of this material, set up a factorial experimental design to test certain hypothesis and bulk sample differences, by appropriately submitting these for testing. I would imagine that this is an experiment that neither the ESA nor NASA have the resources nor mandate to do, yet could lead to profound insight on the nature of cometary particles on Earth and make a very good contribution to science by enthusiastic young scientsits to be. Or I darkly suspect, more likely an application of the scientific method to disprove a popularly held theory theory regarding most of the materials recovered in this way - either way, a great exercise for teaching meteorites and science in general with a problem, methodology, and a participative attitude. Surely there is some work on this out there, but sample size and scope restrictions make this an ideal educator's project looking only for someone like you to organize. Just need a partner in the scientific community willing to lead in the intrumental analyses and sample preparation. Best Wishes and Good Health, Doug - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Francis Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:49 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater Hello Francis: I do not pretend to be an expert on this subject, but the simple answer to at least oneof your questions is that there is no indication that any of the micrometeorites (and thus what you might get in rainwater) is planetary or lunar. The ones collected in the upper atmosphere are either from asteroids or comets. It may be that some very small percentage is planetary/lunar, but these might be so rare as to be lost in the noise. Larry Lebofsky On Tue, November 20, 2007 7:31 am, Francis Graham wrote: Dear List I have a question which has been vexing me for some years. I was introduced to a method of collection of micrometeorites by Larry Megahan some years ago, which consisted of collecting rainwater and then wrapping a powerful rare Earth magnet in Saran (TM)wrap. Placing the Saran wrap on a glass plate, and examining it under the microscope, one could see many ferromagnetic particles. Some were rounded and ablated and it was a strong guess that these were micrometeorites. I have had some students try this project and indeed some of the particles are microspheroids of ablated iron, similar to so called Brownlee particles colected in the stratosphere. But I have reason to be suspicious, especially if the collection is near a former industrial or mining site. MY QUESTION IS, has this method, widely circulated in presecondary teaching circles, ever been critically evaluated by electron microprobe analysis, X-Ray fluorescence or some such? And at what size level does a meteorite cease to be of interest? It would naively seem, that although a very very very tiny percentage of meteorites are lunars or Martians, if a way to rapidly identify micrometeorites can be done, a lot more information on Mars and the Moon could be obtained, simply because there are so many micrometeorites. This would include
Re: [meteorite-list] Rosetta gravity assist flyby
Hello List Larry is right. This was not a screw-up of any person or group, they performed diligently within the given parameters. It could be called though, and I think Larry would agree, a mild screw up of the system. There should be heliocentric elements updated as there are Earth orbital elements. This problem has been going on for some time. Back in the 1970's , when the Satellite Situation Report was a distributed printout, it listed heliocentric objects as merely Heliocentric Orbit. I wrote to the guy in charge for more specifics. The letter came back listing every object I inquired about, with simply the words Heliocentric Orbit beside it. Certainly active heliocentric spacecraft such as Rosetta should be right there with elements. I suspect there is an additional problem. I cannot imagine the DOD software/database did not know Rosetta was coming in. But the walls of secrecy are up, and the phone lines are therefore down. It used to be there was a lot of scientists doing a lot of secret work who were also active publishing academic work. They would instantly know. But this is increasingly not the case. Francis Graham KSU --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Doug: I take exception to your comments that this was either a screw-up or a joke. These are hard-working dedicated people, most of whom I have known for 20-30 years. I do not know all of the details, but when a discovery is made, the discoverers have access to a very large database of Small Solar System Bodies (asteroids and comets). Generally, things in orbit around the Earth have distinct enough orbits so that they are easily recognized. Not so for objects in heliocentric orbits (orbiting the Sun). In this case, an object was seen that appeared to be a Near-Earth Object that was about to make a close approach to the Earth and for which the database did not have the orbital elements. Thus, it was at first considered to be a new discovery. There are nearly 500,000 known asteroids (many with poorly known orbits) and about 5000 new ones are being discovered every month! Maintaining this database is not an easy task. Obviously, someone fairly quickly realized that this was not an asteroid, but Rosetta, but not before the alert went out for astronomers to make observations. The system worked! What did not work, as was pointed out by the Minor Planet Center, was that unless there is someone who is in a position to provide them with the orbital elements of Rosetta, there is no way that they can put this into their database. This is where the system failed. Actually it is impressive that the Catalina Survey people did see this incoming asteroid and shows how well they are covering the sky in order to locate any asteroids heading toward the Earth. However, Doug, Pluto and the IAU decision is another story that we should discuss over beers sometime. Larry Lebofsky On Mon, November 12, 2007 6:51 pm, mexicodoug wrote: Hi Darren, It certainly was an actual screw-up by the IAU. The joke I meant was by Catalina Sky Survey, no matter what they say. You deserve a medal. Just tell us you didn't look in the back of the book (or leave a Google crumb path)! Clyde Tombaugh is is snickering in his grave at the foolish bureaucracy that was arrogant enough to strip a true astronomer of his life's crowning achievement to play word footsies... Best wishes, Doug. - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 6:13 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Rosetta gravity assist flyby On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:35:28 -0600, you wrote: Someone has a sense of humour, especially the flying couch comment ! Looks like it might have been an actual screw-up, not just a joke. http://blogs.smh.com.au/sit/archives/2007/11/alarm_astronomers_in_a_spi n_ov.html http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/071112-technov-asteroid-mistake .html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.ht ml?in_article_id=493152in_page_id=1965 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
Re: [meteorite-list] Question about Polarizing Microscope Lomo Polam P-211
On Novemeber 5, 2007 and in Question about Polarizing Microscope Lomo Polam P-211, Pat Brown asked: Can any of you help me learn anything more about this microscope? I contacted the good folks at Lomo USA and they tell me that this microscope was never supported in the US market and that they can offer no help or support. I am appealing to the international members of this list for any help they might be able to offer. I do not use a Lomo however I would be delighted to try to answer any general questions about using a petrographic microscope. Francis Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kent State University East Liverpool Regional Campus East Liverpool Ohio __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Comet Holmes
Dear List, Yes, the clouds finnnallly cleared in the Ohio Valley. After a week of hearing the pitter patter of rain on the observatory roof, it cleared and I screamed aloud: Now I can see Comet Homes!!! I eagerly and excitedly rolled off the roof to the roll-off-roof observatory and paced the floor, waiting for darkness. 11:15 AM... 11:20 AM...11:25 AM...Noon...12:05 PMit seemed like an eternity. Finally, the terminator swept across me as if it were a great liberation from the oppressive rule of some garish solar dictator. I long already had the telescope circles set, locked, and tracking. Wowwweee Zoweee! I was not disappointed. What a beautiful totally symmetric outburst! What a wonderful comet! Sterling Webb's post is food for thought. Old periodic comets evaporate and their crusts get covered with a silicate carbonaceous crust, like melting ice on a roadside in spring. When pressure builds up and vapor-dust eruptions occur, it should fountain, like the wonderful beautiful megafountains of Hale-Bopp. But Comet Holmes?!? Noo. Something very bizarre is at work. There was no specific locality, the coma was symmetric.Is it an impact? Even a Carnacas-sized whallop on a small crusty periodic comet nucleus would do for a brightening; I suspect this (if an impact) was a bit larger. Which, renders it improbable. It's like a meteor hitting an area the size of Washington DC. But maybe that's what it is. After all, the fictional detective Charlie Chan once said, Strange events often permit themselves the luxury of having occurred. Which sums up this outburst to a T. I toyed with the idea of the intervening Earth-Moon system acting as a gravitational focuser, from 1 AU to 1.3 AU, from sun-directed meteors, but the flux would not be much higher than the sporadic background. Francis Graham __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Nut finds fake meteorite with fake technology!
Hello Doug, Sterling, and list, Thanks for the info. I will pass on buying it, though. It looks too psionic. But yes, I agree Doug, it may be a device that produces some sort of a field effect which of course can be interpreted as a positive reponse to anything. The key is in its utility. For me, the combination of thin section petromicroscopy (optical mineralogy) and electric arc spectrograph usually does everything I want, and gives me some numbers as well. Psionic mineral analysts are likely totally clueless as to the methods and techniques of optical mineralogy and emission line spectroscopy, which is why we should sort of spread this much more reliable (i.e., greater than zero reliability) technology around on a popular level. Oh, THAT's how you do it! might be a welcome relief. And, it has levels of skill. What is that funny yellow biaxial mineral with that big 2V? There are only so many common minerals in meteorites, anyway (But what's this new lunar gabbro Mr Altman is offering??). Instead of $600 for a highly questionable nonworkable device, it's possible for someone who wants to analyze rocks for the minerals in them to buy a petrographic microscope with that amount: www.oremicroscopes.com/microscopes/om0061000a.html Do people who would buy phoney rock and meteorite analyzers know this? Science-oriented people must continue to fight the uphill battle to get the word out as to what works. Debunking what does not alone does not deter folks from writing out those checks for useless or almost useless devices. Is this G. Harry Stine my same childhood hero who wrote the Handbook of Model Rocketry that I checked out of my secondary school library and slept with for weeks, learning how to triangulate model rockets - same as we do for meteorites? I would love to get his take on this if he is still around as he was extremely well versed in the subject. Alas. G. Harry Stine passed away in 1997. He worked on high altitude aerobees in the 1950's, rocket motors, and was hailed as one of 50 space pioneers by an Army silver medal. He started the hobby of model rocketry (as you point out) but he also dabbled in these oddball ideas, and believed in dowsing and pyramid power. If dowsing doesn't work for you, he said, it might be from a lack of talent. After all, not everyone can play the violin, he said. Thus we see he was a complex person. Most people are. They are a mixture of things other people like and things other people don't like. To see the whole person as they really are, both must be apprehended. To use a recent example from the exciting world of television journalism, Spears can belt out a tune, Lohan can act to make you cry, but don't give them car keys after dark. Of course, the answer to his violin observation is that not everyone can play The flight of the bumblebee on the violin, but anyone who avoided hockey in the pre-helmet days can be taught to play A shave and a haircut, two bits on one. But no amount of talent will make one a virtuoso on a machine that does not work at all. There's a few random ideas here. I'll end my comment on this thread. Francis Graham Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Nut finds fake meteorite with fake technology!
The story reminds me of a strange pseudomachine to detect minerals in rocks featured in G. Harry Stine's book Frontiers of Science: Strange Machines You Can Build called a Heironymous Machine. It supposedly examined a mineral with an electric field of some sort and placed some kind of charge on a tactile plate, so the user could feel what was in the rock. It was covered by US Patent 2482772. I never tried to build it, because the vacuum tubes used no longer exist, so I won't go so far as to stick my neck out and assert absolutely it won't work, but I don't understand how it could, physical laws being what they are. But I will be charitable and allow, unless the patent examiner was wacked, he or she must have seen some merit in it I suppose. But why bother when for the same expense, I can build a little electric arc and prism spectroscope and see the spectral lines and will use my sense of sight (not touch) to learn what trace elements might be in the rock, if I had to do it from scratch. And of course a thin section and a petrographic microscope are proven technology for these sorts of investigations for the gross minerals in rocks themselves. This technology is taught in every geology program in every college or University. It's worth a thousand bucks at State U. to take this particular lab course, dear meteorite colleagues. (plug,plug). But then G. Harry Stine then makes the (conservatively) outrageous claim that a Heironymous Machine made of paper symbols for the electrical components also works. This, if true, would be so jarring to my sense of reality I am not sure I want to try it! Actually, he gives credit to John Campbell, who said the same in Astounding Science Fiction in the 1950s. Stine wrote for Campbell. Some of this is rehashed on many websites. But if anyone has experimented with the actual Heironymous Machine G. Harry Stine outlined, or even with meteorites, please educate me on how it could work. I just don't see how with physical laws it can. Unless MAYBE (and I am being charitable again) two rocks greatly different in composition might be distinguished by the amplified differences in field they make on the plate, like meteoric iron and quartz. Perhaps this type of device (diagrams get around) is what the gentleman used to try to find meteorites. If he started to find real meteorites, then, well, that's the clincher. Francis Graham Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] SNEAKY LITTLE DEVILS NJO CONFIRMED METEORWRONG
As I mentioned to the list in January, there was absolutely nothing about the NJO which resembled a new meteorite. I advised the Newark Star Ledger, The New York Times and AP in writing that the NJO was not a meteorite. I contacted the museum at Rutgers prior to their exhibition of the object---which generated the largest attendance on a single day---that this was not a meteorite. Not only is Darryl an early skeptic, but also Mike Farmer immediately posted an objection. A lot of experienced collectors/hunters felt the same. So what is this really and where did it come from? There is an old saying which may relate profoundly to the sneaky little devil: A stone thrown is the devil's. I'm glad this object is off topic now. Francis Graham You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Titanium content
Yes, Randy is correct about titanium content varying around the Moon. What are the petrological reasons why this varies? In southeast Pennsylvania, we have high titanium diabase intrusions (The York Haven intrusion) and low titanium diabase intrusions in highly folded and complex rocks which date from the precambrian. The lunar variation does not have the same cause, I am sure. But what are some of the ideas that account for the lunar variation? Francis Graham Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail QA for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396546091 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Scientists find most Earth-like planet yet
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The composition of the atmosphere is critical to knowing the temperature of the planet - think Venus vs. Mars. If they didn't directly see the planet there is no way they can know anything about its atmosphere. Paul Swartz Venus became hot by loss of its water vapor. An early high convective troposphere carried Venus' water vapor to altitudes where solar UV would dissociate it, thus there was no water to dissove the carbon dioxide into oceans and then lock it in sedimentary rock. On Earth, a Venusful of carbon dioxide is locked in limestone--the most abundant sedimentary rock. Our troposphere did not extend high enough to photodissociate the water vapor. What happened on Venus cannot happen on this new planet because a red dwarf star does not produce enough UV. Still, there are many possibilities otherwise than a New Earth, so Paul's point is well taken even if he used the wrong counterexample. I would be much more salivating if they detected--as the said they may in the future--water. Francis __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Planets Galore
Dear List: I enjoyed the debate and conversation on this list on the subject of what a definition of a planet is. It was not acrimonious and personal, and was very interesting and worthwhile. Many of us do not care if Ceres is a planet or even if the old Apollo rocket stages are called planets --well, maybe I stretch it there--, the important thing is to have a definition of a term that must be used in scholarly journals and go on. Of course common usage will differ from the IAU definition, and that is OK. After all, we still speak of sunrise and sunset, although we no longer regard the Universe as Ptolemaic. As for astrologers, some will be confused and some will see it as a bonanza. That is their concern. This list is concerned with the scientific study and other aspects of meteorites, and the definition of planet is important to this list because meteorites can come from some of these bodies. The worst possible outcome is to have no definition approved. If the definition is later shown to be faulty, or fails to optimally facilitate the communication of scientific results, it can be ammended later. There is an analogy to this confusion. In some states of the USA people are permitted to marry at a young age. Having done so, they move to another state without such laws, and are arrested for sex crimes. While this is much more a serious non-uniformity problem than the definition of a planet, it adequately illustrates the problem that nonuniformity creates. What one journal calls a planet another will not allow, this is akin to the young-marriage problem. A popular science writer would have to have a separate list of acceptable planets for each editor. It is better to have even a mediocre uniformity than confusion. And by no means am I necessarily calling the proposed definition mediocre. It was clearly carefully thought out by many people. But even if it were mediocre, I would still favor it because it would end confusion on the issue. Mars with his war chariot, Jupiter with his thunder, it is nice to have little farmer Ceres finally joining the retinue. Francis Graham __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Planetary mnemonic
Yes, a planetary mnemonic could be devised that includes Pluto, Quaoar, Sedna, Charon and Xena: My Very Eerie Mom Cries Just Since Uncle Ned Perished Chaoticly to Quite Sedate X-Rays. The symbol for Ceres is established; Quaoar and Sedna's symbols I cannot imagine, , but for Xena a female sign holding a sword and shield: O o+/ Is this cute or what?! __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Japanese immpact animation video
There is, of course, no object in the solar system at the present time that could do that, but they wanted all the drama they could get, I guess... I am not so sure one could categorically say that NO object exists in the solar system that could do that. A large Kuiper belt object, if deflected , might still hit the Earth just like that. We don't have a good enough map of the Kuiper belt to rule this out. But I nitpick. Sterling, your explanation was great, and I agree it is MOST IMPROBABLE that any solar system object today could do this. Seeing the nonflammable part of Big Ben enveloped by rock vapor was very sobering... Francis Graham __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Faulty Safe Cited in Moon Rock Theft
In any case... she should be fired, fined and forced to pay restitution. I agree. The only out is if she reported the safe unreliable, and was told to visit her educational clients anyway, or if it was implied that she would lose her job if she didn't. Managers like to cover their behinds. If she told them, even in writing,and then they told her to go anyway, they would have no recollection or record of it, after a little fire in the ashtray. It's entirely possible that something like this occurred too. I've seen things like this happen. Francis __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lunar/Meteorite Samples Stolen from Car in Virginia
List: A few comments were made about the likelihood of the stolen samples being discarded into a nearby dumpster, or offered stupidly on E-Bay. That may happen and these possibilities should be explored for recovery. Criminal intelligence is bimodal in the US , according to an insightful analysis by John David Keller, a Kent State education prof. Criminals are in the main very dumb or very smart. The dumb ones are generally cajoled by the smart ones who use them as patsies or frame them. The dumb ones are repeatedly arrested. Smart criminals in general do not get caught, as evidenced by the 2-10 metric tons of cocaine daily that cross US borders to conservatively satisfy US demand. Those smart crooks that do get caught have done their criminal acts innumerable times, and finally ran into bad luck, got careless, or ran into smarter cops. Smart criminals are not served by the kind of detached intelligence that constitute academic intellectuals. Witness the laughable screw-ups of the NASA college interns who stole the Johnson lunar samples and Gibson's notebook. Real smart criminals in general are very resourceful, very adept at lying convincingly, think in legal terms, have good memories, think fast on their feet, can readily manipulate others, and can scheme creatively in minute detail. The highly competitive labor market makes criminal intelligence bimodal. Large number of persons who, in the 20th century industrial society, would have become employed as unskilled laborers now subsist on a reportable $5000 or less per year and some therefore will try their luck in criminal enterprises to gain headway. Most of those that do engage in crime are arrested repeatedly and eventually jailed for long terms. Because of the large number of unskilled people, even a small percentage (smaller than, say, upper class tax cheaters) means that large numbers of people show up as a bimodal hump on the low end. But since the highly competitive labor market in the USA cuts across all socioeconomic strata, a percentage of middle class folks engage in crime, too, but those who do not have the required personality traits for successful criminal behavior are quickly caught. The numbers, though, are not as many. On the other end are people who have a gift for criminal enterprise who do not get caught, so their numbers, though few as a percentage of initial offenders, contribute to the bimodal hump because they do not get caught. The internet phisher for ID information is likely to be a former dot-commer rather than an automatic weapon finessed drug kingpin, but their capacity to victimize others without remorse is no less. Further, the highly competitive labor market also discourages smart cops by depressing wages, and overworks them to a hasty burnout. Not all, but too many. In short, while it is likely that the lunar samples will be found in a nearby dumpster (if anyone bothers to look) as an unfencible item, it's also possible that they are in the hands of a capable criminal and will make their way to rich collectors in Tokyo, Riyadh or some other cosmopolitan place quite clandestinely. It's even possible that this e-mail, once archived, will be read by the perp from an anonymous library terminal as a general survey of intelligence about his/her crime. Francis Graham __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] FIREBALL OVER NORTHERN VIRGINIA
Dear List, At 8:40 PM Nov. 1 a Kent State student and myself noticed a bright bolide directly to the south, from Kent OH. The sky was not very clear; horse-tail clouds were still there at sunset, peppered with fog near the ground at the time of viewing. So we thought the bolide would have been seen much brighter but for these conditions. Does anyone have a better time on this? Could they be the same object? We thought it may have been a satellite re-entry at the time. Francis --- Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:12:45 -0700, Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've received a number of reports stretching from Myrtle Beach, SC in the south to Washington DC in the north. I normally collect reports from Colorado and the surrounding states; only very large fireballs generate multiple reports to my site from outside this area. Here's a breif news reference to it, with a short video clip (but no actual footage) http://www.charlottesvillenewsplex.tv/news/headlines/1936237.html __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Points on Stars
Dear List The human eye is diffraction limited and has supports in the ocular muscles. This distorts by stress the aperture so that stars have points. Similarly, overexposed stars in telescopes have spikes corresponding to the points of support. At least, what I have said is plausible concerning the origin of spikes on stars. But: is it really the actual historical answer? I dunno. Francis Graham __ Yahoo! for Good Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Planet Definition
--- David Weir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Francis, What's wrong with teaching kids the actual facts, even if they aren't readily conducive to pigeon-holing? My old lunar friend Dave brings up something very important. It IS MUCH BETTER to allow students to decide what a planet is in their minds, and teach them that Pluto, Xena, etc. are bodies that orbit the sun, are approximately spherical, and are different from Earth, Venus, Mercury, Mars because they are largely made of ices and not rocky, and different from Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune because they do not have colossal hydrogen atmospheres. This would be the better approach, much, much more informative. But we all know what will really happen. Test item on state-mandated proficiency test: How many planets are there in the solar system? a. 9 b. 10 c. 14 d.8 One right answer. Such would be neither in the spirit of science or scientific. But: state-mandated. So Dave, I know where you heart is. Francis Graham __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Defining 'Planet': Newfound World Forces Action
A planet is a body that directly orbits a star, is large enough to be round because of self gravity, and is not so large that it triggers nuclear fusion in its interior. This is a very sensible definition. We should have no aversion to calling Pluto, Xena, Sedna and Quauoar planets. One minor quibble. The Earth was large enough to evolve human beings (I don't think we'd see humans evolve on Ceres!) , who set off underground hydrogen bomb tests. Therefore, the Earth is not a planet strictly by this definition. Francis Graham Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] New planets, new possible meteorite sources?
Dear List, Let me wonder out loud. Or out e-loud. What would characterize a meteorite from a Kuiper Belt asteroid/planet? I know ices constitute their mantle composition, but their cores are presumably rocky...and this could be a meteorite source IF the impacts are energetic enough. If so, would it be some sort of olivine or spinel with some interstitial hydrated minerals?? It would be kinda nice to have a meteorite from Pluto, or some former world like it, being that the intervening four planets are impossible. I also realize that a Kuiper Belt Object meteorite would be highly improbable. But it would seem, not impossible. What would such a meteorite look like? Anyone care to wonder out e-loud with me on this? Speculating, Francis Graham __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] THE ODDS OF LIFE
Dear List, The question of life on Mars has sometimes been approached with the Saganism Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and this has been used to justify IF the biomarker can possibly in some way be produced inorganically, then it is no biomarker. Nonsense. The Copernican Principle states that we are not special in the Universe, never were. If that is true, then the claim that life exists/existed on Mars is NOT an extraordinary claim. The claim that life *only exists on Earth* is the extraordinary claim. Biomarkers on Mars, though possibly by some weird mechanism produced by inorganic processes, must, in the absence of the demonstration of that inorganic mechanism, must be held to be evidence of life there. In other words, the onus should be the other way. A recent Icarus article discussed how the measurement of isotopic composition of the methane on Mars could further enhance its credibility as a biomarker: Hari Nair et al Isotopic Fractionation of Methane in the Martian Atmosphere Icarus 175 (2005) 32-35. If the isotopic fractionation of methane points to a biogenic source, again, there will be people who say there might be some unknown inorganic mechanism , or known hypothetical mechanism, which makes it appear as if there is biology. These people will using the same argument as Simplicio in the book that introduced Copernicus to the people, the Dialogo. Lethal as the Martian environment is to most forms of life as we know it, it was not always that lethal and life had plenty of time to adapt...the mechanism of evolution is very robust in that respect. We cannot accept the dictum that we dare not postulate the existence of life while some sort of inorganic process for known biomarkers can be imagined. Recognizing that while there are some things that look like a duck and really aren't, and that all science is tentative, the evidence of more Mars biomarkers must be taken for what they seem to be. Francis Graham --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sterling W. wrote: The key has to be that the creation of life was NOT a random process. For every molecule that fits a template, millions did not. That's a selective mechanism, not a random one. If you allow a strong selective effect at every step instead of random chance, it's done in short order, IF there is a preferred pathway. Hola Sterling, The answer you seek has been mostly written...If you have the time, I highly recommend picking up a copy of this book and meandering through its delightful respect for the accomplishments of biology, but at the same time, its brazen and bold disregard for the groupthink in the field. The implications are more limited by your imagination than the pages upon which it is written! The Origins of Order: Self-Organization and Selection in Evolution by Stuart Kauffman What is primitive life other than a continuous process, soap bubble-like filled micelle of catalysts with linked reactant intermediates? And is it any wonder at all that such bags of plasm form, considering they are the structures, by definition [of life], with the property of non-equilibrium homeostasis, after countless other reactions, well - react, i.e.,die. We've glorified primitive life to religious proportions, yet I think it is much an overrated miracle. While you wait for that landmark discovery that life evolved or can be made to evolve more than once (whether it comes from out of this world of from our own Earth right under our noses), an accepting humanity will take it in stride, go to work tomorrow, still elect lousy politicians, and folks like us will need to find new topics to stay happily entertained just over the edge of chaos. What surprises me is your take on the significance of a confirmation of a so-far hypothetical confirmation of panspermia. While you seem fine with the possibility of seeding life throughout the universe, you think it doesn't do much except transfer the problem of creation elsewhere. While this may be true, I believe the sheepdogs have tricked you into drinking from their tainted watering hole. Did you know that your own red blood cells lack DNA and are anaerobic (utilizing glucose and no oxygen in solution, not aerobic (Krebs cycle) respiration to generate energy)? Your red cells are alive, right? Really, finding (viruses), bacteria, yeasts, perhaps fungi and other primitive bags of reactants developing elsewhere with at least RNA won't solve THE QUESTION to forgetful and greedy human satisfaction, as THE QUESTION has become somewhat of a moving target. It used to be: What started life on Earth? Think about human nature - so accepting (as long as not under threat by killer alien microbes) I say we best learn to solve the simple harmonic oscillator problem before asking questions of the Gods around the Universe
Re: [meteorite-list] An Asteroid Headed Our Way (2004 MN4-99942Apophis)
P.S. in case you are not aware, they think aids started my some pervert getting a little to personal with a monkey. That's possible. But another route of HIV transference, considered more likely, is eating of poorly cooked monkey flesh. I recall seeing photographs of this cuisine from the early 1960s. It's certainly an area where there is still substantial mystery. Celestial mechanical disasters are much more predictable. If Apophis passes through the keyhole we are screwed. Francis Graham __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Question about Tempel 1
Dear List, I was wondering about the naming protocols for features on Tempel 1. On Eros, the features were named after famous lovers, on Phobos and Deimos, events and people connected with their 1877 discovery; on Callisto, Norse mythologies, on Io, volcano gods; etc. I just wondered what they decided the naming convention would be for features on Tempel 1. Francis Graham __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Earth Trojan asteroids
Streling K. Webb wrote: During the 29 June 1878 solar eclipse, two experienced astronomers, Professor James Craig Watson, director of the Ann Arbor Observatory in Michigan, and Lewis Swift, an amateur from Rochester, New York, both claimed independently to have seen a planetary object close to the Sun at totality, about magnitude five or six. These guys were not jerks nor incompetent. Watson was the discoverer of 20 confirmed minor planets (a lot in those days) and Swift was the discoverer of a number of comets some of which you've probably heard of. They knew what they we doing. Both saw a detectable disk, not a bright point. Because their positions for the object differ from each other more than can be accounted for by the Earth distance between Wyoming and Colorado (where they respectively were), the half-degree parallax says to me that they observed a honking big asteroid in the inner system that was actually passing very close to the Earth and only incidentally in line with the Sun at the time of eclipse. Its relative motion could account for some of the parallax, but eclipse totality observing time is very short, not long enough to observe relative motion. Did we have a near miss? Sterling and list, if it was real, it was a near miss closer than you realize. A near Earth asteroid passing in the direction of the Sun can be captured. Recall JE002E4, the temporary extra moon of Earth 2002-2004 that may have been a Saturn stage. Francis --- Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, All, The other web page in my first post about Earth Trojans: http://www.astro.uwo.ca/~wiegert/etrojans/etrojans.html has lots of animated GIF's, nifty diagrams, and downloadable MPEG movies of the dynamics of the Trojan points, along with an explanation that is almost as good as MexicoDoug's! You can't beat all those bright moving colors in an explanation, I always say. And while we've been thrashing the topic of asteroid 3753 Cruithne, to which I will refer to as Crazy Cruithne from now on, to death, the REALLY interesting thing to me I found on that site (above) was a detection image of what may turn out to be a true Earth Trojan! (You have to track it a long time to be sure.) A real Earth Trojan. That would be wonderful if verified. They don't give the magnitude of the potential Trojan object, but since they're using the big Canada-France-Hawaii telescope, I eyeball it by comparison with fainter objects in the frame at perhaps magnitude 21 or so? That would make it about 300 to 600 meters, roughly. But I'm guessing. They search 9 or 10 square degrees of sky (because of those loopy halo orbits) and at this scale, that's a lot of territory to cover searching by tiny, tiny patches. They don't say how much of that territory they've covered, searching for an always moving target, and don't say if they continue to search. If you've ever had the experience of inadvertently losing your way while examining something under a high power microscope, you know what I mean. Where did it go?! I once had a choice summer job at my school, a temporary electron microscope operator. If you think it's easy to get lost at 500X, try 50,000X! Incredibly frustrating when it occurs to you that it's like search a square kilometer area one or two square centimeters at a time! Of course, my boss only did that a few times, and only to impress on my youthful ego how little I really knew (very necessary), then set me on simpler routine tasks at lower powers and gave the important jobs to the real operators. I was a crackerjack calibrator, though. Picky, picky, picky. Magnitude is a whacky unit of measure. When old Ptolemy made the first star chart in all of history (that we know of), he naturally wanted to indicate the relative brightness of the individual stars compared to each other. It wouldn't be very useful to puts lots of equally tiny dots all over the first skymap. But stars are points on the sky, no matter how bright, so you can't make the brightest ones huge fat blobs. He knew of course that a dot twice the size of another dot had PI times as much area and so could indicate a star PI times as bright, but that was too big a step and the biggest dots weren't big enough. Close, but not quite right. You don't need to make a dot twice as big for people to see easily and intuitively that one is bigger than another. A 50% or so increase in diameter is enough for that. Besides, PI was a mysterious thing to the Greeks, a religious secret if you were a Pythagorean, and IRRATIONAL. The Greeks just hated that. Ptolemy was estimating the stellar brightnesses by eyeballing and comparing them. Great astronomer; no telescope. He knows he can reliably group stars by brightness when one is about 2.5 times brighter or dimmer than another, so he stages up
Re: [meteorite-list] Earth Trojan asteroids
MOON Trojan objects exist. They are the Kordylewski clouds, small faint patches of dust, at the L4 and L5 points of the Earth-Moon system (not Earth-sun system). The Kordylewski clouds have been photographed, and have even been seen by the naked eye under total dark skies. They may be variable in their mass and integrated visual magnitude. Very little has been studied about them, very little is known about their possible variability, nobody has anything like a reflectance spectrum of the dust. They remain the closest things about which so little is known. They could well be the subject of study of any of you who wish to make a contribution to science. One thing is known: unless you are under skies so dark the Milky Way is a BRILLIANT band of light, and the Gegenschein is easy, and the zodiacal light is an obvious swath, unless you are under those kinds of dark skies, you have NO hope of seeing the Kordylewski clouds. Francis Graham --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hola Rob, Wouldn't that be = 2/3's (gibbous) phase = about 66% illumination, and a maximum average sky angle of a comfortable,high 60 degrees max observed angle (+/- the oscillation) ... checking they're equilateral triangles, though intuition might be wrong? Saludos, Doug En un mensaje con fecha 06/23/2005 6:21:15 PM Mexico Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribe: Certainly astronomers have tried, but small objects at L4 and L5 would be hard to see due to a combination of range (150 million km), poorer phase angle, and a maximum sky elevation of perhaps 45 degrees at astronomical twilight -- lower when the sky is darker. It would be an interesting exercise to compute the maximum size an Earth Trojan could be and still have managed to go undetected. --Rob __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Friday the 13th, 2029 (2004 MN4)
Dear Ron: Interesting news! Thanks, Ron! What is the subperigee point (long, lat) for 2004MN4 and at what exact time? Are there graphical simulations? Francis Graham Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Did Life Arrive Before the Solar System EvenFormed?
--- Marc Fries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it does is add a few million to billions of years of travel in the cold, dry, radiation-hard vacuum of space to the journey. That, plus you've got to crush/heat it in a violent, solar-system-ejecting imact and then crush/heat it again on the recieving end. There are parasites that must pass through as many as 5 hosts to complete their life cycle. The reason they are not extinct or that they evolved at all is because they produce prodigious offspring. If you look at a parasite (I have a slide collection of all sorts of them) most of their anatomy is devoted to reproduction. En masse. Likewise, although the chance of any given organism making it from planet to planet is vanishingly small (as it is for a single parasite egg to make it back to the host as an adult to lay eggs again) there are enormous opportunities. If life was on Mars, anything other than an absolute total unarguable zero chance of transit would mean it made it to Earth, and possibly vice-versa, given the enormous numbers of impacts and microbes in geological time. As I look at my parasite slides I remember that the organism evolved to go through up to 5 hosts because it was actually more advantageous to the survival of the species than remaining free-living. Likewise thermophiles are held to be the most common genetic ancestor of all existing life on Earth (as genetic studies have verified) because they are evolved to be resistant to impact phenomena and transit. Francis Graham Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Asteroid to pose close call in 2029
There is a minor correction to this text. The largest man-made nuclear explosion ...50 megatons. Not true. In 1962 the old Soviet Union did a 100 megatonner in Nova Zemlya, I recall from my duck and cover days. Francis --- Paul H [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Asteroid to pose close call in 2029 Indianapolis Star, By Guy Gugliotta, April 12, 2005 http://www.indystar.com/articles/7/236149-7307-010.html Near-Earth object' should miss striking Earth, but discovery still highlights risks. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Quarter of Mars Scientists at European MeetingBelieve Life Possible on Mars
--- Marc Fries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howdy A friendly hello to all concerned with this perplexing issue, Keep me off that list, even if the NASA Astrobiology Institute is paying my bills nowadays. Methane can be produced by geology, formaldehyde is a natural by-product of methane in Mars' viciously oxidizing environment, and hexaoctahedral magnetite can be produced abiotically. All correct, I can't argue. But the argument runs that these events are more-or-less independent abiotically (except for the formaldehyde-methane link) , and not so if biology is involved, so the biological origin is increasingly more probable. Keep in mind that was McKay et al's argument in ALH 84001: these things are all in the same rock, and their association would be improbable if they were abiotic, although each might be produced somehow abiotically. The counter to that was: well, we have only one rock as an example. My remarks meant to look to the future of this issue. More news came out in today's Aviation Week. It turns out, according to the article, that Elysium seems to be an ice lake the size of the North Sea on Mars, covered by volcanic ash. (Elysium is visible as an albedo feature from Earth ) And they report the methane is enhanced over it, exactly as it should be if biology in the underlying ground water were a factor, but only coincidentally if geology were. This is a serious question with a thousand important implications, and We can't accept a partial answer or rushed judgement to it either way. I could not agree more that a healthy scientific skepticism is in order here. But, as future evidence comes in, should we cling to nonbiological interpretations with desparation? What is the criteria for saying, Gee. It sure looks like Mars has or had some sort of biology. ? If it is required that all possible nonbiological ad-hoc explanations be comprehensively disproven then it may take some time to get there. Is that what you are saying? It would be OK to say that, IF the implications of even a tentative conclusion about life on Mars (and all science is tentative) were so abhorrent that we must not embrace it unless forced to. Are the implications of saying microbiotic life is probable on Mars so abhorrent that we must not think it unless forced to? And why? You may well be correct that we may not be to the point yet of saying life exists or existed on Mars. But: the news comes in as you say, daily (and faster than the journals can print it) so at what level do we say so? What are the lines to be crossed? And: can we not now today speak of at least probabilities? You must admit, the probabilities look better and better, and as the probability of biology increases, things begin to fit together, and the probability of a lifeless contrary Mars decreases. True, I am a little troubled by some things on a biological Mars model that don't quite fit, but they can be explained by a biology on Mars that is barely hanging on, as did Earth's biology during some of the equator-to-pole freezes of our own Archaean and Proterozoic times. Except on Mars it has been so for billions of years. Of course, if Mars had anything like a visible biosphere above the surface this issue would not even be here. We are really indirectly looking into dark water-filled crevices below the cryosphere with sniffing instruments. We can indeed reach tentative conclusions in science by indirect evidence. If Mars' deep life is chemosynthetic in crevices underground, the kind of absolute solid direct proof many desire may not be forthcoming ever at all, and the indirect evidence may be it. I can hardly wait to see the next Division of Planetary Science meeting papers. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Quarter of Mars Scientists at European Meeting Believe Life Possible on Mars
--- Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quarter of Mars Scientists at European Meeting Believe Life Possible on Red Planet Add me, though I am a moon guy, not a Mars guy. We have methane, truncated hexaoctahedral magnetite in ALH 84001, formaldehyde...what do the critics want, to be hauled away by Martians kicking and screaming? The scientific criterion for the identification of new life was established by Linnaeus at the very start of modern biology: a type specimen, a fossil, or a reliable biomarker (a new kind of bird, for example, can be inferred from a new kind of bird's nest). This standard has now been met in the case of Mars, though barely. I guess we want more than barely because it is ON MARS, although it would have been sufficient for Earth. OK, OK. As time goes on, more evidence will come in...the yes, buts will seem more and more strained, as they are becoming...and the no-lifers will seem increasingly intractably dogmatic. I see their point of view. Like Lowell's canals, we have been fooled before. But this time, I think it's real. Seems so. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] My SA shot my CD!
I knew I heard strange noises in my meteorite cabinet last night. Turns out a battle broke out between Sikhote-Alin and Canyon Diablo over which was the coolest iron. My S-A the shot my CD right through the gut. Ouch! Reminds me of the Outer Limits episode Corpus Earthling starring Robert Culp and two talking evil meteorites. Anybody else remember that episode? Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Space Mission to Asteroid 2004 MN4
Sterling Webb wrote: Whoa, Darren! True, the asteroid will be closer than a geosynchronous satellite, but since it's not gravitationally bound to the Earth's g-field, the local speed limits will not apply! You're going to have to really hop up your police interceptor rocket if you're going to get close enough to even slap it on the ass on its way by! For a conventional sample return mission, that is quite true. But there is another way. A slower rocket could hit the asteroid as it passes by on approach with a high energy laser, and vaporize some of it. A very small bit of this vapor could be resolidified on a platinum alloy catcher grid that could then return. The vapor would, it is true, hit the catcher grid at a high velocity, but if the mass is sufficiently small it could be done without destruction of the catcher. This mission could even be performed SUBORBITALLY by high altitude rockoons, if all the timing is right. In fact, the timing of it would be very tricky. Francis Graham __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What the $#%*%
Red Kryptonite? A rare type, comic book fans recall, that made even Superman crazy. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Possible Mars meteorite!
Hey, I'm gonna remind everyone on this list back in early 2004 that I said on this list the rovers would find Mars meteorites! Below a certain size, the thin atmosphere of Mars would slow them below hypervelocity, and since big meteorites are comparatively rare, there should still be plenty of small ones. I made a little calculation then based on proportionality, even. I knew it! I don't have good hunches often, so I hope you remember mine back then. Francis Graham --- Matson, Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What a coup if this find by Opportunity turns out to be a meteorite! Even if it isn't a meteorite, the rock looks very interesting -- not least for being all alone in the middle of nowhere. If it does in fact turn out to be a meteorite, this would make for an interesting entry in the Meteoritical Bulletin! One problem: no type specimen submitted. ;-) About all that will be known with extreme accuracy are the latitude and longitude (albeit Martian latitude and longitude). Upper and lower bounds on the mass can be estimated from the dimensions, and after grinding with the RAT and taking some lose-ups, they should be able to differentiate between iron, chondrite, achondrite, pallasite, mesosiderite, etc. If chondrules are visible, they might even be able to make an educated guess between H/L/LL or carbonaceous. One question: what do we call a meteorite found on Mars? Martian meteorite is ambiguous... --Rob __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Asteroid 2004 MN4 Update - December 24, 2004
Today's impact monitoring results indicate that the impact probability for April 13, 2029 has risen to about 1.6%, which for an object of this size corresponds to a rating of 4 on the ten-point Torino Scale. In case anybody was curious, April 13, 2029 is in fact a Friday the 13th. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: The Next Five Big NASA Failures [Editorial]
Bob Verish's forward does have some good critiques about NASA. One book of NASA critique is Lost in Space: The Fall of NASA and the Dream of a New Space Age by Greg Klerkx (Pantheon Press), now available for $6.95 from Edward Hamilton, bookseller, Falls Village CT 06031. (+ $3.50 SH of course!) I saw the CRAF spectrometer exhibited at the '87 Planetary Science Conf. I wonder what happened to it. But the critiques of NASA, although some are valid, do not detract from the fact that NASA is better than no NASA or a greatly reduced NASA. It is still the big space money powerhouse. They provided funds, for example, for me to help build the Observatory here at Kent State University (with J.D. Keller, the primary team leader, and T. Koontz). It's not a big research observatory. Just a little teaching observatory, but NASA helped! Made a big difference in what we could offer students and local high school folks. Is NASA managed at optimum with respect to the goal of exploration of space and development of space technology? Probably not. Few things are managed at optimum, though. Could NASA do better? Probably. The critiques must center on a popular discussion on what can be done to improve NASA for its stated mission. But to downsize NASA any more or replace it with another agency is unthinkable, IMHO. One thing NASA might do more is reach out and interface more with other groups such as amateur astronomy groups (Astronomical League) and amateur rocket groups (Tripoli Rocketry Assn.) and even amateur collectors (IMCA)with lots of internships. Now that the internet exists, internships can be remote, and take the place of a second job, except for preset orientations and meetings at fixed dates at some location. Hm. Maybe I should write this idea up, d'ya think? Francis Graham __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Chinese satellite slams apartment building
The satellite landed in our home. Maybe this means we'll have good luck this year. the tenant of the apartment, Huo Jiyu, said. All of the learned professors of logic in all of the time since Aristotle, could not have come up with a better example of a non sequitur. Francis Graham --- Charlie Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Heads Up! http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-10/17/content_2102407.htm __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Newspaper article about the Denver Show
Dear List: The Metropolitan did a story about the Denver Meteorite Show. http://www.mscd.edu/~themet/TheMetropolitan/04_05/Vol27_issue07/12.html OK, the writer is my daughter. And it includes a mini-interview with Anne Black. I'll forward her feedback if any. Francis Graham ___ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Re: Newspaper article about the Denver Show
Dear List --- Notkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They evidently shifted it away from the top feature. Thanks again for the correction. Yes, the top feature was on Vampires and the editor did it. The Metropolitan is a college paper. Both are very good features, though. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Microbes Could Survive Crash-Landing
Dear List, Back in 1999 it seemed to me that in order for there to be no life having ever existed on Mars one of two conjectures, or both, must be true. 1. It is absolutely impossible for viable spores to be transported by any natural process from the Earth to Mars (No Free Ride Conjecture). 2. There was never any environment on Mars that could have supported a positive growth rate for such organisms if they did get there. (Killer Mars Conjecture) Since 1999, recently, the Mars rovers have shown that the Killer Mars Conjecture is false. And the work of Burchell et al as described is evidence that the first conjecture is false also. Even if Burchell's mechanism is improbable, that won't do, as there have been billions of times matter has been exchanged between the planets due to impacts. There are plenty of chances in 4 billion years. The odds need to be vanishingly small. I'm leaning toward the minority who think that ALH 84001 has biomarkers. Although most of the biosignal in ALH 84001 can be produced abiologically, it can also be produced biologically, and in light of the two conjectures above being false that interpretation seems more reasonable. Comments? Francis Graham --- Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.nature.com/news/2004/040830/full/040830-10.html Alien microbes could survive crash-landing Philip Ball Nature September 2, 2004 Tough bugs make interplanetary wanderings more plausible. Bacteria could survive crash-landing on other planets, a British team has found. The result supports to the idea that Martian organisms could have fallen to Earth in meteorites and seeded life. Bugs inside lumps of rock can survive impacts at speeds of more than 11 kilometres per second, say the researchers [1]. The work also shows that bacteria could survive crashing into icy surfaces such as Jupiter's moons Europa and Ganymede. The possibility that Earth's first life came here inside space rocks - the panspermia hypothesis - was proposed in 1903 by the Swedish chemist Svante Arrhenius. But the painful landing has always been a stumbling block. Mark Burchell and his colleagues at the University of Kent, Canterbury, have put panspermia to the test by firing lumps of porous ceramic infiltrated with bacteria into targets. During impact, the bacteria are crushed by up to a million times atmospheric pressure. A few years ago everyone said we were crazy, says Burchell. They knew it wouldn't work. But in 2001 he and his colleagues showed that soil bacteria can survive a high-speed impact into soft gel [2]. Most of the microbes died, but enough survived to make panspermia possible, provided that the bugs don't have to travel too far: they would probably be sterilized by cosmic rays and UV radiation during a journey from another solar system. Crushing blow But the researchers didn't know whether the pressures generated in their experiment were comparable to those of a meteorite impact. Nor did they know how different microbial species would fare. To find out, the team used a gas-powered gun to fire bits of ceramic, between 0.1 and 2 millimetres across, into targets of gel or ice. The projectiles were loaded with cells or spores of the soil bacteria Rhodococcus erythropolis or Bacillus subtilis. At similar pressures to those that would be suffered inside a meteorite as it crashed, around one in every ten million R. erythropolis cells and a few in every hundred thousand B. subtilis survived when they hit the gel. A gram of terrestrial soil typically contains a billion bacterial cells. The survival rate for an ice target was about ten times higher, so Burchell and colleagues think that it's not just Earth and Mars that could have swapped life. The icy moons of Jupiter, for instance, at least one of which, Europa, has a sub-surface ocean of water, could seed one another. Or a planet could re-seed itself if, as some have suggested might have happened on the early Earth, a massive impact wiped out all life. References 1.. Burchell M. J., Mann J. R. Bunch A. W. Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society , 352. 1273 - 1278 (2004). 2.. Burchell M. J., Mann J. R., Bunch A. W. Brandao P. F. B. Icarus, 154. 545 - 547 (2001). __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] GWB and Meteorites
Dear List: One of the ironic things about Mike Farmer's exchange is this: here we are in the 21st century and the only way to get new moon rocks is for people like Mike Farmer to collect them in the desert. Should we not have research missions to the moon by now? While G.W.B. has made some talk about this, what is being funded? The Chronicle of Higher Education has deemed GW Bush's administration one of the most anti-science administrations around. Much of his core constituency denies Darwinian evolution and modern cosmology, for example. While the latest batch of planetary probes (Cassini, the Mars Rovers, Galileo) have produced a treasure-trove of information, those initiatives began in prior administrations. I post to Farmer's defense, and on-topic: I think we can do better in an administration when it comes to promoting scientific progress in the planetary sciences, and many other sciences. I will probably vote for Kerry. Just my two cents. And it's topic-relevant, so no apologizies for this single, humble American citizen's opinion. I know other planetary scientists have differing opinions, and that's OK. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: [meteorite-list] Explorers Find UFO Fragments in Tunguska MeteoriteArea
Dear List-- If you can allow the possibility that we are not the only intelligent species in the galaxy, it is certainly possible that some ET device could have crashed in Tunguska. But as one person said (Dave Rosen?) Many things are possible but fewer things actually are. If I found a technical device at the Tunguska site I would want high-res pix on the net asap. Where are they? Furthermore, I'd arrange to have it in a musuem or curatorial facility for examination by competent scholars asap too. Where is it? There is a greater possibility too that any sort of device may be aircraft or spacecraft parts that came down, unrelated to the 1908 event. That's why I'd do exactly as above, quickly. I think it would likely be NOT ET, because the Earth is such a small target to a probe loose in the galaxy, even if it has the ability to autonomously home in on a silicate water-covered world with a large percentage of free oxygen in its atmosphere. Even in our solar system there are two worlds that meet that criteria (Europa is the other). UFO believers tend to overemphasize our planet's own importance. But there is a slim possibility of ET. Charlie Chan has the quote which ends this missive: Sometimes strange events permit themselves the luxury of having occured. PIX! PIX! CURATORIAL DISPLAY! Or stop. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Earths core
Dear Mark, This might well be the case on Earth. Natural fission reactions have occurred in the Oklo uranium deposits in present-day Gabon, in the late Archean. Even more dramatic will be the case on Population Zero planets. Population Zero planets do not exist yet; they will exist about 3 or 4 billion years from now when higher elements' abundances have increased in the interstellar medium from Population I star supernovas occurring now, and if star formation in the galaxy continues. Such Population Zero planets would have a vigorous fission occurring in their cores and would have hot-spot volcanoes of jets of vaporized material spewing out into space. It would be a while before these physically tumultuous worlds could support life as we know it. Note the caveat as we know it. The mantle would collapse into the depleted core forming in the upper mantle extensive faulting, which later would support living things that are hot-spot chemosynthesizers in the brine that would infuse into these many spaces. As this life would evolve into multicellular forms, it would eventually leave these crevasses for the surface, much as ocean life left for land in our Paleozoic, especially as the spaces sedimented in from the detrius of such life. If such life on the surface later evolved intelligence, we might envision the following conversation: Hello, Dear, how was work today? Oh, Jim, it was terrible. We found a whole new way to convert zorbomite to food rocks using solar energy, but those darn little plague chemosynthesizers infested our test batch. Well, Marge, I prepared your favorite meal of reduced Europium titanates. Their many valence states are healthy for your hearts, you know-- Little Margie! Stop that! Don't play with your rock pulverizer! Use it on your food! We Earth land vertebrates must eat one rock, halite (salt) to live; evolved surface chemosynthesizers would have many many more they must eat and on Population Zero planets these would be plentiful in variety. I wonder if there is a way to detect samarium, neodymium and other fission products in the core of the Earth. If hot spot volcanoes, such as Mauna Loa, really come from deep within the mantle near the core-mantle boundary there ought to be some trace of fission in the Earth's core if it is really happening. Francis Graham --- mark ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi. Just been reading an interesting article in 'New scientist' (this weeks). It is about the centre of the Earth (i.e the core) , apparently there is simply far too much heat to be explained by the conventional 'still molten since it formed' theory (or from gravitation actions). One theory that is being taken seriously is that fissile radioactive elements (These being the heaviest elements) would sink into the core mixture) and start a nuclear chain reaction, so the extra heat could be generated from nuclear processes. Scientists are looking for the tell tale anti neutrino's that could indicate nuclear reactions going on. They point out that natural nuclear reactors exist on earth already, in area's where uranium is sufficiently concentrated in the rock, it has undergone fission. If this where the case, there ought to be similar processes going on other planetary bodies (indeed this might explain why mars still appears to have volcanism when it shouldn't really have, for it's size?). My question: Would we not expect to find iron meteorites with nuclear reaction by-products or even higher than normal un-reacted radioisotope concentrations - if this were feasible? Or is it a case of Asteroids being too small to differentiate enough for the heavier elements to collect in sufficient quantities? Maybe we just haven't had a sample of 'inner core' yet, and somewhere out there are chunks of natural reactor!! Best, Mark Ford __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Plausibility of Martian Microbes
Indeed, one can ask the following questions: On which planet did life originate? Could life have originated on Mars and been transferred to Earth or vice versa? If Mars had lakes and conditions hospitable to at least microscopic life, and Earth had life at that time, then the ONLY way MARS could NOT have had life is for there to be an exact 100% chance that any meteorite from Earth was completely sterilized by the space environment before reaching Mars. 99.999% isn't good enough, because of the many chances of Earth meteors. Why there must have been hundreds of Earth meteorites hitting Mars from the Sudbury and Hudson Bay impacts alone at the time, give or take a thousand years. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Re: Hapkeite
Bruce Hapke did indeed predict Hapkeite 30 years ago! It will be interesting to see if NWA 482 from the farside has it. Bruce Hapke also predicted polysulfur oxides on the surface of Io, and S2O (disulfur monoxide). He also suggested polysulfur oxides might be the UV absorber in Venus' clouds. Be nice to live long enough to see if he was right on that, too. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fewer Females Wiped Out Dinosaurs
Too many males may have been the reason the dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago, say Leeds University researchers. They believe that dinosaurs may have been like modern-day reptiles such as crocodiles whose sex depends upon the temperature before they were born. The new idea is that the asteroid that struck changed the world's climate causing it to be cooler, which led too many dinosaurs to be born male. I must agree with the critics. It's EXTREMELY UNLIKELY that temperature-driven sex selection would have operated totally across such a vast and diverse subclass like the dinosauria, to even have a major impact of any sort (no pun intended). Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Simulation of Solar System with 2 Equal Earth-Like Planets in same orbit
Bob Mateson's discussion about a good planet definition ended with the interesting follow-up question of what would happen if we had 2 large planets sharing the same orbit. In 1994 the science fiction reviewer William B. Hall of Pittsburgh discussed the science-fiction idea of an Anti-Earth, which cropped up in several stories and at least one movie, about an earth in the opposite side of the Earth's orbit around the sun, orbiting with the same period, perpetually hidden by the glare of the sun. This literary device made for much interesting science-fiction as you can imagine. Of course such a body if it existed would have been detected in the 19th century because of orbital perturbations on the other planets, which had been measurable to sufficient accuracy then. Nonetheless Bill and I wondered about the stability of an Anti-Earth in the solar system. It certainly would seem it could not be hidden for long, but due to perturbations would creep around and eventually interact with Earth. So, we set up a GravSim program (operating on a 286 machine!) and ran it with an Anti-Earth over-night. Ejection of one of the Earths from the solar system took place within 100,000 years. Even if the GravSim program had gross limitations (it likely did) such a fast ejection would likely not be ameliorated by a more precise algorithm. There was no publication of this expected result except in a small local newsletter devoted to space travel. (The Anti-Earth Rocket Mail, Vol 2 No. 5 Feb. 7, 1994). But it was fun, and so was the movie, whose title ten years later I can't recall but which starred Roy Thinnes. Anyway, for two planets of the same size diametrically opposed at least, Bob , your definition is safe: it seems this is dynamically unstable, and so the concern is moot. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Pluto a Planet: A POem
I am really asking for it, but here goes: PLUTO TO EARTH Have you heard the news from Earth? Asked the Plutonians (For all it's worth Although they were used to the cryogenic A little heat was loved; and made them phrenetic Increasing their thoughts; yea, near perihelion Their best of sages could count to a billion.) The scoundrels on that blue dot near the Sun Count eight planets now, and we're not one! Another Plutonian retorted, It must be the glare, Of the Sun that maddens them. It's not fair! To pronounce this judgement is mere sophistry When I doubt they even know our geography. And what of our atmosphere, whose pressure is felt, Is that like an asteroid of the Kuiper Belt? And our moon, said another,Who's tidally locked; If we're not a planet, whys not Mercury defrocked? In lieu of this, cried another, Let the planets begin With Jupiter; and those rocks further in Are the Sun's satellites; to be pedantic The Earth's a double moon--how's that for semantic!? Yet one more Plutonian, of a psychological bent Said, Consider where Earth's spacecraft were sent. To all orbs but ours. But in their spacefaring nations The rulers defunded planetary explorations. So like Aesop's fable, 'The Grapes and the Fox' What man cannot conquer, he demotes and mocks! And so the wise subzero Plutonians agreed Their lower status was from a cold human need To conquer all; failing that, what is left Is from what is worthy to conquer cleft. No doubt if Pluto had an American probe Visiting; each Congressional ear lobe Would be told the expensive spacecraft hurled To a major planet, not some trivial world. Said one more Plutonian, twice as cynical, Thus even planetology has gotten political. Francis __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Artificial Meteors Tests in V-2
Dear List, Mark Bostick's article on V-2 artificial meteoroids brought out some interesting memories. On September 27, 1966 Robert Jones (Now a physicist in Kansas) launched the first amateur satellite into solar orbit. It was a small pellet like the Bostick article described, propelled into escape velocity by a shaped charge. To get it out of the majority of the Earth's atmosphere Jones first had it lifted by a surplus sounding balloon ( those 8-footers from Edmund Scientific, remember?) and then a big model rocket. Since then, his experiment has been repeated, and more than once. One fellow used only a sounding balloon, but osmium to penetrate the remaining atmosphere. There is no way to verify it made it, although Jones used a piezoelectric crystal wired to a transmitter to verify the shaped charge detonation and measure its momentum. That's the best that can be done. A shaped charge metal disk aimed downward below the horizon from a high altitude sounding balloon could simulate a meteor entry. One must be careful today because new antiterrorist legislation regulates even small amounts of high explosives (such as used in Jones and subsequent experimenters devices) but small quantities were not so strictly regulated in the 60's and 70's. Another similar experiment was done by Fritz Zwicky, a highly creative astrophysicist, on October 16, 1957. He also launched an interplanetary pellet using US Govt equipment, by the shaped charge method, from an Aerobee 85,000 meters above Holloman. He claimed then to have beat the Russians into interplanetary space (Luna 1 wasn't launched until January, 1959). But the 1946 experiment undoubtedly had both escape velocity particles and orbiting particles, so if pellets count as spacecraft, Zwicky was beat too. There was another claim of a pre-October 4, 1957 space object. Around the internet there was a claim that a lid from an underground nuclear explosion placement hole was projected into space before Sputnik. Investigating those claims, one finds that there were four underground nuclear tests before Sputnik I. The first three, Uncle from the Buster-Jungle series, Ess from the Teapot series, and Pascal A from the Safety series, were too shallow and had tunnel venting. A steel manhole cover from the first three would have been vaporized. For the last, the 1 KT Ranier test of Sept. 19, 1957, it was 790 ft. underground, with no tunnel venting. The manhole cover would have rode a 20 psi overpressure blast wave that would hit it 0.25 sec. after the explosion. This would give it an ultimate velocity of 0.6 miles per second, and a ride up to an altitude of perhaps as high as 30 miles. But not to orbital or escape velocities. And only escape velocities get you into space permanently with vertical projection. The internet rumor may have originated as an observer of the explosion visually or by radar may have seen the manhole cover going way far up, if there is any truth at all behind the internet rumor. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Re: Meteorites on Mars
Dear List, I was pondering what Ron had to say about hypersonic impacts and other comments. From the Wilemette, Alnighito and Hoba meteorites, it's safe to say the largest non-hypervelocity impactors on Earth are about ~10 meters, as an order of magnitude. To avoid hypervelocity impact, the object must be slowed by some dynamic pressure, which is proportional to the density of the atmosphere x velocity squared. The entry velocity is escape velocity for the planet; For no hypervelocity impact the final velocity must be less than the speed of sound in rock, which, in comparison to the planet escape velocity, and for the purposes of this crude proportionality calculation, is close to zero. The escape velocity squared is proportional to g for the planet. This is 0.4 for Mars, approximately, compared to Earth. The desnity of the Mars atmosphere is about a hundredth of Earth's, i.e., .01. So the max dynamic pressure available on Mars is about 0.4 x 0.01 = ` .004 compared to Earth. So a MASS only .004 of the largest meteorites on Earth could be brought below hypervelocity on Mars. Since mass is proportional to radius cubed, the largest meteorites on Mars to survive hypervelocity impacts are therefore in the order of about 1 meter in size. Since that is an approximate upper limit, we would expect to find centimeter-size to 10 cm. size meteorites in the Gusev strewnfield. Is my thinking right on this? I admit I made a great many handwaving assumptions and used a very tiny envelope to write on the back of. Am I in the ball park? Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Mad Cow and Meteorites.
We still had hamburgers for dinner that night, he said. The odds of being hit by a meteorite are much greater than anyone in America dying of mad cow disease. Interestingly, there is some science behind the speculation that something like a prion protovirus may have been carried to the early Earth by a meteorite, since life on Earth seems to have developed within 400 Mya after cooling. But no one can be sure yet, since there are also models for a rapid RNA world that might work. Certainly the prion that causes mad cow was not brought by a meteorite though, since it is too host-specific. Unless there are cows in space. Now that would make interesting meteorites. :) Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 http://search.yahoo.com/top2003 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] OT--Victorian Time Machine
Mark Ford wrote an interesting piece about a telescope between two mirrors as a sort of Victorian Time Machine, using the infinite mirror effect. Mark, what book did you get that from? It got me thinking. Human beings need about a tenth of a second to know if anything is happening. If a light goes off, to see it off, in comparison with another light that goes suddenly off, you need about a tenth of a second between them. If two mirrors are 1 km apart you'd have to look back to the 30,000 th reflected image to see the light still on while the light is off, by a tenth of a second. How many images you can see back depends on the observers aspect. This is why when you use the infinite mirror effect at home you can't see all the way to infinity, but your head seems to get in the way. It's best not to have a telescope between the mirrors, but look through the scope at a flat diagonal mirror between the mirrors. A tiny diagonal mirror of 3 mm size in comparison with two mirrors 10 m in size would get you near 30,000 images. You also need to cut the light quickly. Bulbs are too slow. Maybe an electric arc with a nanosecond surge protector, as can be purchased. Deliberately surge, and in a nanosecond the arc is off. Get a very bright source; you are looking at 30,000 km. of reflections. So using two infinite mirror effect mirrors as a time machine to look back one tenth second and see one light on after it is off is just barely do-able, it would seem, using some big mirrors and a nice big field on a dark moonless night, and careful alignment to insure perpendicularity (the curvature of the Earth would have to be accounted for). Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Re: UFO Buffs Sue
Dear List, Jim Oberg, the soviet space expert, is also of the opinion that the Kecksburg impact was a soviet satellite the US wanted to keep and not return as per treaty. The meteorite story, Oberg says, was a cover (it is not listed in any meteorite catalog) and the UFO flap was an even better cover up that accidentally came along. I saw drawings of the Keckburg object by firemen who saw it. It looks just like a soviet re-entry vehicle. The alien writing reported was probably Russian. I hope the UFO buffs do get their information. It may help solve a space mystery. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Bush and the Flight to the Moon
Dear List, Randy Mils listed 10 humorous reasons Bush desires to return to the Moon. One can speculate on the political reasons. Space activists in the past have generally been part of the Republican coalition--at least since the 1970's. However, Bush is alienating a lot of them by banning or requiring strict licensure of APCP, the chief ingedient in model rocket propellant. Another reason may be to meet the new Chinese space initiative. Here, things get murky. It is likely that the next US Moon rocket will have many many components and parts built in China. It is likely the stages will be transported on cargo airplanes built in China, as Boeing is now manufacturing its airplanes in China, or at least, many of them. So if the US goes to the Moon, will it be on a US-made rocket? What percentage? Even the design of it may be outsourced to a third world firm. That is not an unrealistic expectation, and complicates the political value of meeting the Chinese space initiative with a US space initiative--one perhaps designed and made in China. I'll leave you guys to sort out the meaning of this. I can't. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ownership Claimed for Asteroid 433 Eros
Nemetz' claim is a test case for treaty rights vs constitutional rights. He was very clever in picking Eros. Not only is a NASA vehicle parked on it, but the story will be avoided by many newpaper editors, as their content would filtered out by many net nanny programs because it contains the word Eros. Hence he won't be widely derided as a nut. It will be interesting to see if the judge throws out the case on the basis of no actual possession of the land (Eros) happened. It is possible for an amateur rocketeer to Take possession of part of the moon. Here's how: a pellet can be sent into outer space at escape velocity by a shaped charge from the upper stratosphere. This was done by Fritz Zwicky in 1957 and also by many amateur rocketeers beginning with R.W. Jones in 1966. If the release of the pellet can be narrowed to a still-wide velocity range, the release of the pellet can be triggered by a GPS unit and a computer in the upper stratosphere to occur at a certain time at a given location. If the pellet thus hits the moon, as it should, then possession has been taken. To my knowledge although amateur space BBs have been launched, an amateur hit on the moon has not be done. But it should be easily possible. That the USA considers that the Outer Space Treaty doesn't permit ownership of celestial bodies is interesting. I have had students collect micrometeorite dust in rainwater. Since the tiny objects have not yet touched the ground, technically they are still celestial. Yet the USA makes no effort to deny my students' ownership. If NASA is successful at getting its parking ticket on Eros thrown out, if I park illegally and find meteoritic material under my car, can I fight the ticket in municipal court? Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ownership Claimed for Asteroid 433 Eros
He might be better served if he dumped a large order of coffee in his lap and sued McDonalds. Just a bit of FYI on the famous McDonald's coffee lawsuit. McD refused to negotiate with the lady that won that lawsuit, even early on, when her lawyer asked for little. Plus, this was around the time, you recall, that McD's changed their cup design to a less rigid cup, that flexes when you grab it. The comment is correct; the ownership fo asteroid case is probably not as good as the McDonald's coffee case. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Cosmos 96/Kecksburg
Interestingly, the spacecraft in question appears to have been a Venera lander (a mission to Venus) that failed to leave parking orbit. More info, including (highly critical) comments if this was the source of the Kecksburg bolide, can be found at: S... it now appears possible the USA has a Venera lander. I wonder where all the stuff (including the Upper Volta meteorite mentioned in the earlier NASA memo) is? For that matter, I wonder where Clarence Caldwell's airplanes are? Clarence Caldwell was a aviation experimenter that made airplanes with round wings in the 1930's. Nothing dramatic, I am afraid, just standard piper-cub like airplanes with round wings and propellers. No strange powers. Nonetheless, when the UFO controversy broke out, in the late 1940's, the USAF sent a black bag team and got his airplanes out of a tobacco curing shed he left them in years before. This was mistakenly publicized by the local police chief in local papers near Glen Burnie, MD. The airplanes were carted off to--where? What became of them? They would be good for a local aviation history museum. But that is off topic, except by comparison to the Kecksburg meteorite case, so I go no further. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Sci Fi Channel Sues Air Force
Dear List, Let me begin by stating: I do not, repeat, do not think that UFOs are piloted alien spaceships and I do not think there is much good evidence for that opinion. In any case, science demands a type specimen for a new life form and ufology has yet to deliver. Having said that, have you guys noticed that sputnik fragments were collected in the late 1950's and early 1960's on the ground, and after Skylab in 1979, but there are very few fragments (if any) from in-between years? This is because, I tentatively assert (which is a way of saying this is wild speculation), the US government was collecting pieces of Soviet spacecraft secretly, in violation of the Outer Space Treaty the US signed(which requires return) for the purpose of study of Soviet technology. Kecksburg is an example. The thing as sketched looks like some sort of re-entry vehicle. The alien writing might well have been Russian characters. Jim Oberg was the first to advance this hypothesis regarding Kecksburg. Something was loaded on that flatbed and whisked away, and it likely was a Soviet satellite. Unless you believe the official line that it was a meteorite. Any of you got any Kecksburg for sale? Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Re: NP Article, 09-1963 3 Lakes in Canada Meteorite Craters
Dear Mark Bostic and list, Mark, you post the neatest articles! Brings back memories. Alvin Cohen was one of my profs at U. Pgh. Like Murray Kornhauser, he was an early expert in his field that deserves more recognition-- in Cohen's case, meteor crater identification and lunar studies. I remember I wrote a paper on the Nahkla meteorite for his course--it was a good persuasive paper but he took points off because I mis-spelled Nahkla throughout it. I still have to look up the spelling...did I spell it right? Dr. Cohen had a thin section of Nahkla to study. I remember learning of the dead dog story, and I noted there were no canine hairs in the thin section. Dr. Cohen's wife, whom I also had the pleasure of meeting, is a very nice person from Finland. It was rumored by some grad students that Dr Cohen looked at various cultures and came to the conclusion that a wife from Finland would suit him best. Of course, I doubt if this rumor is true, but it says something very positive about the careful scientific methodolgy he follows in his research. People extrapolated it to his personal life in rumor. He is a careful scientist, and his conclusions were well founded. I liked him as a prof. very much. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NP Article, 08-1961 Meteor Could Touch Off WWIII
Dear List, Mark Bostick's provision of Murray Kornhauser's article in the Sheyboygen paper may prompt some question as to who Murray Kornhauser is. Kornhauser was one of the chief researchers in impact theory in the 1950s, 1960's and 70's. As the article shows, back in 1961, he recognized that a meteor impact would indeed mimic a nuclear explosion, complete with mushroom cloud, but sans radiation, long before that was common knowledge among planetologists. He also heavily researched impact senarios on land and water of various objects. But his work was done primarily through defense contracts, and he did not have the freedom, as did the late Eugene Shoemaker, to publish all that he discovered of importance. So it is with researchers. It is a choice for good minds between defense and science, as science, by its very nature, must be open, and military, by its very nature, must be secret. But there was no NASA during the first part of Murray's career, so really, there was no choice. However, a great deal of his unclassified work was published in his book, Structural Effects of Impact (Cleave House, Baltimore, 1964). It remains an early useful guide to this topic, still valuable. Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh has a copy. Some recognition is certainly due Kornhauser, as he was one of the first impact scientists who looked at impacts systematically and comprehensively (together with John Rheinhart, who studied the Arizona Meteor Crater). Much of Kornhauser's material likely could be profitably gathered and reprinted, and this would be of good use to impact theorists. Later, among many things, Murray studied car impacts and helped develop better air bags. Something to remember, when you are in a crash. Murray Kornhauser, 79, lives in New Jersey now and is an investment consultant, but keeps up on meteor impact literature. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Contacting E-Bay
Dear List, I noticed many of you are in contact with E-bay about fraudulent meteorites. How do you contact E-bay directly? Do they have a real phone and physical postal address? I tried contacting them by e-mail about a security problem , but never could get a real person (as opposed to an autobot) response. I just would like to pick of the phone and discuss my very real security problem. It's in their best interest, too. I could also write a postal letter, if I knew their address, since certified mail usually gets a read. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Fwd: Impact crater in India--Query
--- Francis Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 15:27:55 -0400 From: Francis Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Meteorite List, I am uncertain about what this specifically refers to, otherwise I would look it up on the Astronomical Data Service. Perhaps one of you can help. - I have received a request, from a student in India, for guidance on the study of an impact crater he is currently researching in India. Below is the fowarded message. Does anyone on this list specialize in Earth impact craters--or do you know of anyone I could advise this student to contact? Glenn A. Walsh Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 02:43:55 -0700 (PDT) From: dsf dsbhiul [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: hi To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Respected Sir hoe are you ? i think you remember me.this email i send for guidance and information about meteor crater,impact etc. now in last week i visit one place at my district. that place is i think last 175 year back one meteor impact place is there on that spot and yes i have also some old note about this place. i shall very happy if you guide me how i do deep study about impact because now i do research study and rawal said me i m on right trak so please sir if you intrested in this news so guide other wise if you send me some list of scientist who work on this subject. if you are intrested in my research so i can send you other information about my research. Sandip Jadhav MY ADDRESS SANDIP A. JADHAV AT-UMBARDE,POST-KOPROLI TAL-PEN, DIST-RAIGAD 402107 MAHARASHTRA, INDIA __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Origin of the Moon
I'll try to make peace in this controversy. Science is NOT like religion, and people who say so have not considered the matter very well. Science depends on observations and experiments that can be done repeatedly and at will. The physical laws known to us are based on those kinds of hard work. Religion offers other kinds of knowing. Science cannot say there is or is not a God, because one cannot do repeatable at-will experiments or observations on God. We cannot at will see the vision that Ezekiel saw, for example. Anyone who says that science presumes there is no God, or should presume there is One, is not well versed in the limitations of the methods of science. When scientists say the Moon began in possibly such and such a way,such as impacts, inherent in this idea is that the laws of physics operated then as now. If God miraculously created the Moon in some different way we have no way of knowing. In fact, we have no way of knowing that God did not create us five minutes ago, complete with memories of lives which never really existed. This is the Omphalos argument, made by Rev. Philip Gosse. But the idea that the moon was made by physical processes much as they are today has evidence behind it; we see physical processes much as now occuring in parts of the Universe 4 billion light years away, the light of which took that long to reach us, so they occurred four billion years ago, near when the moon formed. Of course, once again, there is no way of knowing this too is not a ruse. Science takes the simplest course, governed by the logical dictum called Occam's Razor. We see physical processes now that occurred four billion years ago; the laws of physics are the same, therefore, the Moon could have formed in a non-miraculous way by physical processes of the laws of physics. It may all be a Divine ruse or error of not considering all the possible miracles that could give us the same appearances, but that is not the simplest explanation. Galileo met astronomers who thought, following Aristotle, that the Moon was smooth. He showed them lunar mountains through telescope. But, they argued, These mountains have a transparent invisible layer on top of them which has a smooth top. Without batting an eye, Galileo replied, Yes, but there are invisible mountains on the smooth layer. One can make many ideas beyond the simplest. They might be correct. But science must take the simplest until evidence based on repeatable and at-will observable phenomena compels further. I tell my students who have any number of religious ideas about origins (and they widely vary, even among Christians) that to learn scientific ideas of origins involves understanding the simplest explanations with repeatable experiments and at-will-observations, and their children, the laws of physics, as a matrix. Anything they wish to add or subtract from it is based on their own personal faith, but that is not the domain of science, no more than it is possible to recreate Ezekiel's unique vision in a test tube. Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Debate Over What Constitutes A Planet Is Far From Settled
I thought some might like this. Others, delete. Francis Graham PLUTO TO EARTH Have you heard the news from Earth? Asked the Plutonians gathered by the Hearth (For although they were used to the cryogenic A little heat was loved; and made them phrenetic Increasing their thoughts; yes, near perihelion The best of sages could count to a billion.) The scoundrels on that blue dot near the Sun Count eight planets now, and we're not one! Another Plutonian retorted, It must be the glare, Of the Sun that maddens them. It's not fair! To pronounce this judgment is mere sophistry When I doubt they even know our geography. And what of our atmosphere, whose pressure is felt, Is that like an asteroid of the Kuiper belt? And our moon, said another,Who's tidally locked; If we're not a planet, why's not Mercury defrocked? In lieu of this, cried another, Let the planets begin With Jupiter; and those rocks further in Are the Sun's satellites; to be pedantic The Earth's a double moon--how's that for semantic!? Yet one more Plutonian, of a psychological bent Said, Consider where Earth's spacecraft were sent. To all orbs but ours. But in their spacefaring nations The rulers defunded planetary explorations. So like Aesop's fable, 'The Grapes and the Fox' What man cannot conquer, he demotes and mocks! And so the wise subzero Plutonians agreed Their lower status was from a cold human need To conquer all; failing that, what is left Is from what is worthy to conquer cleft. No doubt if Pluto had an American probe Visiting; each Congressional ear lobe Would be told the expensive spacecraft hurled To a major planet, not some trivial world. Said one more Plutonian, twice as cynical, Thus even planetology has gotten political. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Leonids from Eastern Ohio
Dear List, The skies of eastern Ohio were under light cirrus clouds November 19 from 1 AM - 6 AM. At 6, it suddenly clouded up and rained an hour later. It was possible to see some GREAT Leonids up to 6 AM. Only the brighter ones were visible, but they were at least 1 per minute. No kind of meaningful scientific count was possible due to the variable sky conditions. But we all had lots of fun. Francis Graham East Liverpool OH __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] J002E3 Ephemeris?
Dear List, Is there a site which gives a geocentric ephemeris for J002E3? BTW, the capture theory of the origin of the Moon was always looked upon with disdain because of the high odds of capture. Yet, the evidence for the Mars-size body impact of the Earth is not extremely compelling, except by default, because of the flaws of other ideas. But, when one glances around the solar system, one finds captured objects everywhere; Hyperion, Phoebe, Triton, Phobos, Deimos...and now our own Apollo 12 SIVB has come back to haunt us. Although the Moon's presence helped its capture, and will ultimately assist in its ejection next year, nonetheless it does offer an inspiration for a new look at the capture theory of the origin of the Moon, does it not? Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos More http://faith.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] UFO Commentary, Nicht Verboten.
Dear List, From the outset, let me say I do not think there is any reliable evidence that there are extraterrestrial intelligent visitors (ALH 84001's possible microfossils sure didn't look like they were intelligent). Having said that, there are still mysteries to be solved connected with what is called the UFOs, more on the social and political side rather than scientific, and these mysteries directly relate to meteorites. For example, although the United States and Russia signed a treaty agreeing to return each others' crashed spacecraft, has there been any instance of that between 1963 and 1988? Recall the story given to the press after the Kecksburg PA UFO crash: it was a meteorite they placed on the flatbed truck. Yet, do any of you have a 1 g slice of Keckburg to sell? Is it in any catalog of meteorites? Further, recovery teams were thorough. How many spacecraft debris pieces are on the market from spacecraft which crashed between 63-85? Skylab is the only one I recall. Suppose we tentatively advance the hypothesis that UFOs offered a great cover for two cold war superpowers to circumvent a treaty which they had signed, in order to examine and evaluate each others' space technology with national security purposes (possibly justifiable) in mind. The fact that it was a treaty violation meant that such operations had to be done in great secrecy. One book outlines some of these operations under the code names Moon Dust and Blue Fly (the name of the book is not with me at the moment). But it didn't give a lot of checkable facts or references, so I didn't know how reliable it was from a scientific-historical point of view, which is probably why it was forgotten. In any case, in true Popperian style, this hypothesis is on the target range to be falsified. Does anybody have parts of spacecraft, except Skylab, that crashed between 1963 and 1988 and were recovered by civilians? How do spacecraft parts recovered by civilians in those years, if any, compare with the prevalence of spacecraft debris sold on e-bay etc today? Francis Graham __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] space engines
Hello List, --- David Calongne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi list, interesting article www.msnbc.com/news/755843.asp see ya david I see even the space elevator was contemplated in the article. At the 111th meeting of the Ohio Academy of Sciences, I presented A Pluto Charon Cable Spacecraft which takes advantage of the fact that Pluto and Charon are mutually tidally locked and the orbit is circular to likely within 25 km. A steel cable (no exotic materials required) could be strung between them and a cable spacecraft go up and down between them with more efficiency (using electromagnetic braking) than reaction propulsion alone. I specified the size and design of a possible cable-car spacecraft. The abstract is in the latest Ohio Journal of Science. For the small noncircularity of the orbit, the cable could be spooled a bit or retracted underground. I found out after the paper that Charles Sheffield had the germ of this idea in a footnote in a table in the appendix to his excellent Web Between the Worlds, and also in an earlier publication where this table appeared. But I and my calculus tutee Bob Dinkel first realized that steel will work, no exotic diamond fibers needed, because Pluto and Charon are so small. Of course, the question at the meeting was Why would anyone build such a thing between Pluto and Charon? Tsk tsk. Such questions are so 20th century. Francis Graham PS Similarly, cables could be strung between double asteroids. Besides cable transport, what other uses would they have? I wonder. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] A curious reference
Dear Listees: Tracy Latimer says it is a shame no one kept the murderous aerolite. But, in point of fact, IF the story in the English mechanic is true (big IF) then the meteorite is somewhere: it didn't attain escape velocity again! If it's not listed in the standard collections, it may be in Australia near the town of the victim in Whitestone township. Matter does not disappear, and indeed the spot can likely be shown to you (IF the story is true) by elderly people who were shown it when they were little by people elderly to them. Plus there is likely a tombstone and grave somewhere. Just remember the caveat-- IF the story is true at all. The English Mechanic served the 19th century English-literate public like Popular Science and Scientific American does today.( Indeed, I managed to get William Congreve's idea for a flying machine,which was a sort of cyclogyro device, from one issue. But it did take some wait--which is why I very much appreciate Alan Pickup and Tracy Latimer's efforts on this.) But the E.M. also accepted stories of possible interest uncritically, so it might not be true. Australians on the list might want to check it out--or someone going to Australia for other reasons. Even if the story is a hoax, the full account of who, why and how the hoax was perpetrated adds to the knowledge base of theories about why people do things like Piltdown, etc. The mystery of the Meisenthaler Meteorite awaits! Francis Graham __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Tiny Correction to Duncan Steele's Last Wave Goodbye
The largest nuclear explosion was not 60 MT, but 100 MT off Nova Zemyla, in the early 1960's. There have been no nuclear explosions of that magnitude since. Francis Graham __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Wrangel Island Meteorites (from R Harvey with permission)
Hi, the arctic has a lot of generic problems as sites for meteorite concentrations by ice- fast moving, young ice, relatively warm conditions (Antarctica is on average between 20 and 50 deg. colder during the year for given latitude and altitude), higher accumulation rates. In my humble opinion only portions of the NE side of Greenland approaches the kinds of conditions thought to support Antarctic meteorite concentration mechanisms. For those reasons I wouldn't expect a meteorite concentration site on a small icesheet like Wrangell. See Harvey et al. (2001) Meteoritics and Planetary Science 36, p. 807-816 for my thoroughly objective opinion on where Arctic meteorite concentrations might be. best, rph .. Dear List, Have any meteorites been found on Wrangel Island? While looking at some wind and surface conditions, including possible ice ablative winds; seems like there should be some under similar conditions to Antarctica but in miniature. But the meteorites would not be so miniature. Just a gut hunch. Francis Graham __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lowell
Dear List, And yet while there are similarities between Hoagland and Lowell (both asserted Martian intelligence was indicated by the evidence) there was a difference. Lowell was working in the late 19th century with cutting-edge instrumentry and did fully engage in the scientific community. His observation of straight line features on Mars, if not an optical illusion, would have led reasonably to the conclusion that an intelligence was at work on Mars. Alas, it was an illusion caused by viewing lineages of irregular features at enormous distances at the limit of resolution. Hoagland followers' rejection of the spacecraft data of Mars Global Explorer and claims of a conspiracy are not things Lowell would have done. Viewing Mars at favorable oppositions through moderate instruments of the size Lowell used shows canals just like Lowell saw. It's an optical illusion. It was novel for Lowell. When he first put forth his ideas, the man simply had no way of knowing he was being fooled. Francis Graham __ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Any meteorites from Wrangel Island?
Dear List, Have any meteorites been found on Wrangel Island? While looking at some wind and surface conditions, including possible ice ablative winds; seems like there should be some under similar conditions to Antarctica but in miniature. But the meteorites would not be so miniature. Just a gut hunch. Francis Graham __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Tribal Group and Sale of Fragments
Dear List, I once met a man who owned statuary artwork stolen, much earlier and by someone else, from the tomb of a Pope. The man I met I think had every legal right to own it but its display in his garishly mod-style living room and it separated from its artistic context and that it was from a pope's tomb seemed offensive to me as a Catholic; the very idea of tomb robbing affected my sensibilities. I imagine this sort of sentiment is what the Native Americans are feeling about the Willamette fragments which are religious, or at least revered, artifacts to them. But I may be missing important details. Comments? Is this analogy fair or are there other factors? I know this is controversial (and I have no objection to the scholarly study of meteorite fragments or tomb art, for that matter) but I thought I'd make this analogy from my own life experience, for what it's worth. Francis Graham __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
